Browse content similar to 27/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Boris Johnson hits the election campaign | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
is not just a "mutton-headed mugwump", | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
but has the Foreign Secretary undermined his own credibility | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
Tensions are high on the Korean peninsula | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
but the US says it wants to bring the North Korean leader | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
we'll ask one of Donald Trump's advisors what that means. | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
Zac's back but other prospective candidates are sacked - | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
with the Daily Politics Desk of Election News. | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
And parliament shuts up shop today in a quintessentially British way - | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
Obviously, all this coverage of the French elections is catching on! | :01:16. | :01:48. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today, | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
someone who's well used to hearing Norman French | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
as a member of the House of Lords - | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
So, for the first time since Theresa May called the election, | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Boris Johnson has been deployed this morning. | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
the Foreign Secretary launched a personal attack on Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
referring to him as a "mutton-headed old mugwump". | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
A "mugwump", by the way, is apparently a person | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
who remains aloof or independent from party politics. | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
It comes from the 1886 American presidential campaign, where | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
Republicans left their candidate and put the support behind Grover | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
Cleveland, who won, the first Democratic candidate to win since | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
the end of the civil war. They became known as mugwump. What that | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
has to do with Mr Corbyn, I have no idea. | :02:38. | :02:38. | |
Having suggested that Britain's security would not be safe | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
in Mr Corbyn's hands, Mr Johnson was asked to clarify | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
the Government's own position on supporting US action in Syria. | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
I think it would be very difficult if the United States has a proposal | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
to have some sort of action in response to a chemical weapons | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
attack and if they come to us and ask for our support, | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
whether it's with submarine-based cruise missiles in the Med | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
or whatever it happens to be, as was the case back in 2013, | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
John, in my view, and I know this is also the view | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
of the Prime Minister, it would be very difficult | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
What do you make of that? Well, we would have to know what we were | :03:07. | :03:20. | |
saying yes to. Syria has been going on since 2011. We have had a | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
chemical attack before in 2013. We have had a policy where we have | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
consistently said Assad must go, but he's still there. In 2017, we need | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
to be careful because the US hasn't made it clear what the strike was | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
about and what next. What the endgame was. Exactly. Targeted | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
strikes are important, because it could be part of a strategy to get | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
Assad to the negotiation table, but the fact that we haven't heard since | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
that strike what the US are trying to achieve, they haven't been saying | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
Assad must go in the way have in recent times. The relationship | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
between them and Russia, of course, impacts on what happens in Syria. So | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
we can't just say yes, we have to ask why. He also seemed to muddy the | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
waters a bit in that if such a decision was required, he said it | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
would be up to the Prime Minister to decide, whereas recent practice has | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
been to go to Parliament on these matters. What do you think? It is | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
not entirely clear what the convention this. The Prime Minister | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
does have absolute right to commit our troops without going to | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
Parliament. And sometimes the element of surprise is necessary. | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
Because of what has happened in recent times, before we commit our | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
troops, I think prime ministers do come back to the House and I presume | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Theresa May would follow that. Is there a distinction between going to | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
the Commons and committing troops, as opposed to firing cruise missiles | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
from submarines in the Met? I suppose our young men and women are | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
not at risk in the same way if we were to put troops on the ground, | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
but I still go back to this question - what are we trying to achieve as | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
an international community, and what would Britain bring to that | :05:07. | :05:08. | |
coalition which makes it necessary to be involved? Those are questions | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
that need to go before Parliament. Is Jeremy Corbyn a mutton headed old | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
mugwump? This is just Boris being Boris. Jeremy Corbyn is an | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
ineffective leader of the Labour Party, which means he can never be | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
an effective Prime Minister. Without sounding ultra-confident, Jeremy | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
Corbyn is not going to be Prime Minister. I don't think we need to | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
resort to personal attacks on him. It is obvious that he can't run a | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
political party and would not be able to run the country. Using the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
phrase mutton headed old mugwump, which, other than the alliteration, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
I'm not sure what the purpose of that phrase is... I had to look it | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
up. Is it personal? It was something I felt comfortable with as party | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
chairman. I don't think we need to resort to personal attacks, | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
certainly not in the current general election, where we are so far ahead | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
in the polls. It is clear from everything coming back but the | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
question is not whether Theresa May will be Prime Minister, it is what | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
the size of her majority will be. We should get on with telling the | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
country the mandate that we want, how we are going to govern, the | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
policies that are important to us, publish our manifesto. Jeremy can | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
damage himself by himself. How big a part should Mr Johnson played in the | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
campaign? Is he an asset to your party or a loose cannon? It depends | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
on the kind of campaign we want to run. He certainly gets a lot of | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
attention and a lot of people like him. He has huge face and name | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
recognition and certainly provide entertainment and light-heartedness | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
to some campaigns. But I think Theresa wants to run this as a | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
serious campaign, and it is a serious time. The reason the | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
election has been called us because we are going into serious | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
negotiations. And he is the Foreign Secretary. But Boris is always | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
Boris, whether as Foreign Secretary or Mayor of London. He is a great | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
guy, I just don't think that this election requires us to have any | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
personal attacks on anybody. At least it brought mugwump back into | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
the political lexicon. It hasn't been used for a long time. And we | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
all missed it. I missed it, actually! But that is just me. | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
Now, another morning and another party leader is out | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
on the campaign trail - this morning, Jeremy Corbyn took | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
Very little actual concrete policy - they tell us we'll have to wait | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
for the manifesto on May 15th for the actual detail. | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
But this morning as they visited voters, | :07:48. | :07:48. | |
Jeremy Corbyn reiterated his pledge to build 100,000 affordable | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
council and housing association homes | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
They have also claimed that Labour-led councils build more homes | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
This is what Jeremy Corbyn had to say. | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
A Labour Government won't stand by and watch | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
We will build a million homes over the period of a Parliament, | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
half of which will be council and housing association for rent | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
We want our young people growing up with security, so they can | :08:18. | :08:29. | |
achieve more in school, in college and go on to university. | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
We can speak now to Labour's Jack Dromey, | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
So just an aspiration here, no policy? It is a firm commitment to | :08:40. | :08:55. | |
build a million homes a year. Not a million a year. I beg your pardon, a | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
million over a five-year period. And half of those homes would be built | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
by councils and housing associations to rent and to buy. It is a welcome | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
commitment because we are engulfed by the biggest housing crisis in a | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
generation. No government has done enough, to be frank, but our record | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
was so much better. We built 2 million new homes, a million more | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
homeowners now. Home ownership is now falling for the first time since | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
the 1920s. We brought up to standard the 1.8 million council and social | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
homes. We slashed homelessness. And when we had the financial crisis in | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
2008, I worked with John Healey when he was the housing minister and I | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
was typically general secretary of my union. We worked together to put | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
a programme together, the kick-start programme, which sold 120,000 homes | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
built, workers kept in the building jobs and avoided the collapse of the | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
construction industry. Why should we believe a firm commitment to you all | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
from you to build 200,000 new homes a year when you never succeeded in | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
doing that in the 13 years you were in power? Because that is what the | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
country now demands. But you didn't do it before. In the way I have | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
described, we have a good track record. You never built 200,000 new | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
homes a year. I made it clear that no government has ever done enough. | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
The question is who has got the determination to build affordable | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
homes to rent and to buy that the country wants. The idea that you | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
have a generation now growing up, often into their 40s, having to stay | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
at home with mum and dad or in costly, insecure rented private | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
sector accommodation is plain wrong. It would be one of our top | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
priorities. Not just the homes that people want, but the jobs it | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
creates. If you have good homes, that helps improve people's health, | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
because damp and overcrowded homes damage health. It is an utter | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
determination to tackle the housing crisis. But the only way we can | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
judge that determination is to look at your past record. We have no | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
details of the policy of how you are going to do this. You are talking | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
about 100,000 new council housing houses as part of the mix. In the 13 | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
years you were in power, how many council houses did you build? Not | :11:29. | :11:40. | |
enough. How many? You built 7870. That was in 13 years. But you expect | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
us to believe you will build 100,000 a year now? But we inherited from a | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
Conservative government when we came to power in 1997 social housing | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
stock in this country that was a scandal. Damp homes, badly heated | :11:56. | :12:04. | |
homes. We made a decision that with those already in those homes, we had | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
to bring them up to standard. It has transformed the lives of millions. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Did we build enough new social homes? No, we didn't. But if you | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
look at what is happening now, if you live in an area where you have a | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
Labour council, you see 50% more homes being built by that Labour | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
council. Here I am in Birmingham, where we are getting close to 3000 | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
homes a year. A third of those are being built by Birmingham City | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Council. A leading Labour member of the London Assembly says Labour | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
should apologise for its record on council housing in government. I | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
have made it clear. No government has ever done enough. He is saying | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
you should apologise. He said more council homes were built in the last | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
year of Thatcher's government than were built in 13 years of a Labour | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
government. But the Thatcher government and John Major government | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
than left us with the mess of the best part of 2 million social homes, | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
most of them in disrepair. We acted to put that right. That was our | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
priority. Should there be more council homes built? Yes, without | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
doubt. But look at the record of what Labour councils do compared to | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
Conservative councils. We build homes, they don't build anywhere | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
near far enough or fast enough. How will you pay for 100,000 new social | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
homes a year? Both by way of direct investment, but also intelligent | :13:44. | :13:45. | |
arrangements. As shadow housing minister, I worked with the housing | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
associations. I have seen it in my own constituency of the Abbey Fields | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
estate is working with housing associations but also Birmingham | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
City Council. We have mixed housing. But where will the money come from? | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
The mixed housing is different and buy. On a basic level, you have an | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
estate where you have people from different backgrounds living | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
together. Some people buy, and that helps you build homes for social | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
web. It is a combination of investment and that kind of | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
intelligent mixed community building that generates the money necessary. | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
Here in Birmingham, we now have something called the Bromley bond, | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
where you have private sector companies who are wanting to invest | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
in a new social housing come in mixed tenure estates in the way I | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
have described. We also have a Chinese company which is going to | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
invest ?2 billion in housing in Birmingham. So if you have the will, | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
there is a way. Have you costed 100,000 new social houses? Yes. And | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
you will see that in our manifesto. You can't tell me today? I have | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
given you a strong steer about how we do it. It is a combination of | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
direct investment, and this government has been cutting back on | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
investment in social housing. Councils of all political | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
persuasions have been complaining bitterly about what the Government | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
is doing. So it is a combination of investment in social housing with | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
the kind of intelligent approach which levers in investment from the | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
private sector in building mixed community areas. Family, Mr Corbyn | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
campaign for the Labour leadership on rent controls. Were those feature | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
in the Labour manifesto? We are certainly going to act on a chronic | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
problem of insecurity in the private rented sector, often poor | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
accommodation in the private sector and soaring and unpredictable rents. | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
Will there be rent controls? That will be at the heart of our | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
manifesto. You will see what we say. One more time, will there be rent | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
controls? Mr Corbyn is in favour of them. Will they feature in the | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
manifesto? Wait and see. We will transform the private rented sector | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
in the best interests of private tenants, good landlords, of which | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
there are many in this country, but also tackling bad landlords. More | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
secure, higher quality private rented sector. | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
Depufrp We will leave it there. You are not answering my question, all | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
I'm getting is rhetoric You are getting answers. The one thing I am | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
not getting. Never mind always a pleasure to discuss these matters | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
with you. Housing is a problem. A big problem. This Conservative | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
Government has been in power now for six, into its seventh year and you | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
are still way short of 200,000 new homes a year. We are. I think the | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
last figures were 190,000. We think that the figures should be... Not as | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
high as that I think that was the UK overall. Less in England. 2015-16 I | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
think it was 2700,000. You will have to correct me on the area. We said | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
we have to build 225,000 to 275,000 houses, new additions a year. Not | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
just building new houses but conversions as well. Where I agree | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
with Jack is that successive governments, we are talking back to | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
the Thatcher years as to when council housing was being bi. | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
Successive governments have failed to keep up with demand and the needs | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
of Britain. Starts in England around 142,000 in the past two years I was | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
looking at some figures this mornings the latest figures I had | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
for 2015-16 were 190,000, I was comparing them to the last Labour | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
figures we had. I think you will find it is for the UK as a whole. | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
Right. I think Labour figures were 130,000. | :18:03. | :18:04. | |
Now, it's a truism in politics that one campaigns in poetry | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
Your view of Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
may have you doubting the timeless quality of that remark, | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
so as we reach the hundredth day of Mr Trump's Presidency, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
perhaps he ought to chew over another maxim, | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
one put forward by a British Prime Minister: | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
that "events, dear boy, events" are the things most likely | :18:21. | :18:22. | |
And like so many occupants of the Oval Office before him, | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Mr Trump's been buffeted by cold political winds from | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
Tensions have risen in north-east Asia amid concerns over new nuclear | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
weapons tests conducted by North Korea. | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
Washington, Beijing and Seoul believe that North Korea could very | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
soon have nuclear weapons with inter-continental capability, | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
meaning they could be used to target cities | :18:49. | :19:09. | |
North Korea says it'll "never stop" testing nuclear weapons so long | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
as the US continues alleged "acts of aggression", | :19:18. | :19:19. | |
while US Vice-President Mike Pence promised his country would meet | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
with an "overwhelming" military response. | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
Donald Trump invited all 100 American senators | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
to a White House briefing to discuss the situation. | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
But the rhetoric from Washington appears to have been dialled down, | :19:30. | :19:30. | |
with the US military's commander in the Pacific theatre saying | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
they wanted to bring Kim Jong-Un | :19:34. | :19:34. | |
"to his senses, not to his knees". | :19:35. | :19:36. | |
And we're joined now to discuss this by Sebastian Gorka. | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
He's a deputy assistant and strategist in the White House. | :19:39. | :19:38. | |
Welcome to the programme. # Thank you. Bring the Korean dictator to | :19:39. | :19:46. | |
his senses, not his knees. What would it mean in policy terms? Well | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
this up thing about this administration, we do not tend to | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
give away the play book in advance. But if you look at events over the | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
past three weeks it is clear we have sent a message to several nations | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
that have client states that they have to draw their own internal red | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
lines for what kind of behaviour they will countenance from those | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
client states, whether it is Russia with Syria or whether it is China | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
with North Korea. North Korea will not be solved in by lateral | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
discussions. It's not a normal nation, so right now, I think the | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
summit, the results of that summit, especially the turn around the | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
Korean coal shipment, tells you things are going in the right | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
direction. What do you expect core China to do? North Korea relies on | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
China. China has leverage. Zo they can exercise that. What is the game | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
here? What do you want China to do? The game is a very simple one. North | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
Korea has to stop taking action that is are destabilising to the region | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
and stop behaving in a way that in material breach of the numerous | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
international requirements with regards to weapons of mass | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
destruction programmes and ballistic missiles. What indications do you | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
have that China is prepared to use its leverage in that direction? The | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
most obvious is what happened with the coal shipment but beyond that we | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
are thot going to force our hand or Beijing's hand. This is very | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
delicate stuff. Remember, it is a nation that is more Stalinist than | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
Joseph Stalin's USS R was and as such, it is not your normal actors | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
let's put it like that. The British secretary said today, military | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
actions are "not the way forward" and risk "huge and hideous | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
reprisals" what do you say? I say that what the President has | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
demonstrated in the past 14 weeks is that state craft is never the only | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
function. There is not only one way of solving things, diplomacy without | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
the option of force is just words and pieces of paper, a state craft | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
requires the application of all the tools of state craft, all the | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
instruments of power at the right time. That is why we sent a very | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
clear message. It's not about leading from behind. It is not just | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
about meetings in Geneva or vee ennia. It is about the -- Vienna, it | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
is about the toppings, should it be required to use other tools as well. | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
-- it is about the option. What is the message? That America is | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
back, there are red lines and we will execute. What is the red line? | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
Well, in recent weeks it's the use of weapons against innocent women | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
and children. But in North Korea what is the red line? Again, we | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
don't give our play book away. You have said you have made it very | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
clear but it is not... We have made it clear at a political level but we | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
will not talk about the tactical or operational theatre triggers, that's | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
what the Obama administration did with Mosul and what the Clinton | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
administration did with the Balkans. If you broadcast all of your | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
potential triggers those will be used against you. One Republican | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
senator after the briefing said it lacked "Straight answers on the | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
policy of North Korea and its testing of ICBM?" I would disagree. | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
But you weren't there? This is making a discussion, a comment about | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
an unclassified meeting, then, I would disagree. But what is the | :23:25. | :23:34. | |
policy on ICBMs? The North Koreans continue to test missiles to give | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
them an ICBM capability and with that they are able to miniaturise | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
the nuclear weapons so they could nuclearise an ICBM, if they continue | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
down that road f Chinese pressure either doesn't happen, or doesn't | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
deter them, what is the American reaction? Again, we do not show our | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
cards to the players at the poker table. But, the vice-president was | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
very clear in his tour of Asia last week, the capacity to inflict | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
physical damage on our Allies or partners or our nation will not be | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
countenanced. How we will get to that point, whether it will be | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
through multilateral diplomacy, behind the scenes, second track, | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
third track negotiations, the use of force in some demonstrable fashion | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
to send a message are options on the table but we will not declare what | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
those options will be at a certain time. Do you accept, though, that if | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
there was a military response to undermine or destroy North Korea's | :24:35. | :24:46. | |
ICBM capabilities, that the price would be a rain of fire on the South | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
Korean capital? Everybody knows the geography and the distance. About 70 | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
miles And the North Koreans have massive artillery to hit a modern, | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
big population, Westernised city Nevertheless, there are numerous | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
other tools that can be used. I'm not going to comment, I'm in the | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
going to confirm or deny but there have been stories about why that | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
recent test failed. It didn't fail because a bomb was dropped on the | :25:24. | :25:33. | |
missile pad. Cyber warfare Is one theory I'm in the going to comment | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
on. I'm not going to confirm or deny it. Then there were missiles | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
launched on the Syrian airfield after the attacks, you can see that | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
in terms of a punishment act of what had been done by the Assad regime | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
but what is the strategy behind it? What is the strategy? Yes Very | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
similar to what we are doing in North Korea. Assad's regime has | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
significant sponsors, one of them is Russia and we sent a message that | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
you may want to reconsider just how far your sponsorship goes when you | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
have a client that is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
citizens. That is a strategic response. And as you saw with | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
regards to Secretary Tillerson's cancelled meeting with Vladimir | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
Putin and what led to that meeting, the desired effect of that use of | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
force were arrived at. Hang on, what has been different about Russian | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
actions in Syrian since the attack? It is not actions in Syria, it is | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
clearly their reassessment of just how deep and how far that | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
relationship will go and their openness to talk to our Cabinet | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
members on these issues. But I don't know what's changed on the ground | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
since that attack. I mean within 24 hours the Syrian Air Force was | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
taking off from that very airfield and hitting civilian areas, which | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
were deemed to be rebels. So what changed? By the way, why the 59 | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
cruise missiles, why did they do so little damage? What were those | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
aircraft? They were prefueled. They didn't have the capacity to fuel | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
them. It was smoke a irmirrors, in almost every interview I give, I | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
have to remind people this is week 14, not month 14. Patients is a | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
virtue. What do you make of what you have heard? It goes to the questions | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
I was asking at the beginning - what is the strategy and what we are kind | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
of hearing, well there is a strength we're not going to tell anybody what | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
it is, we'll not deny or confirm the strategy. As international partners | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
of somebody who sat in the Foreign Office for two-and-a-half years, if | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
we are going to commit to supporting strategies, well, we need to know | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
what is going on, and I think even in relation to Syria, it was obvious | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
that we didn't know what was going on until it had happened In World | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
War Two, what did we do with regard to the Third Reich? Did we advertise | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
our strategies? In fact we did the opposite. We convinced Hitler we | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
were coming over Calais, not in fact coming over on the beaches of | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
Normandy, that's strategic action. Well that was a tactic, what we did | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
in temples strategy, was leave nobody in any doubt that we were | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
going for the total destruction of Nazi Germany. That was the strategy | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
and nobody was in any doubt... But how you achieve it. A tactic not a | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
strategy. Don't mix terms. The discussion between Allies was clear | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
on what the strategy was. Ultimately there is no doubt in anybody's mind | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
that Assad has committed the most vile murders and acts in his own | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
country. He is still there. But he is still there. We have been saying | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
since 2011, Assad must G I'm not sure what the US policy is now on | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
whether he must or must not G that hasn't been clarified We don't can | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
have what the Obama administration had, an article of faith that he | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
must G we are going to deal with the people that support him because it | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
has to be. The bottom line is the killing has to sto. You asked about | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
the difference between strategies and objectives, our objective is the | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
killing has to stop. What the permutation is for that, who is in | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
power, that lab political -- that will be a political power, a | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
political process. Now, it's a snap general election, | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
so the parties have had to work at breakneck speed | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
to select candidates. But don't worry - our Ellie's been | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
keeping up with it all and has all the details of those | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
and more besides with the Daily Politics | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
Desk of Election News. Yes and here it is, welcome, with a | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
hastily erected sign, we have a chair and a computer. So what more | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
could you want? Today we have been getting more details of who is going | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
to fight this election and it is a blast from the Tory past. Esther | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
McVey, remember her, she has been selected to fight George Osborne's | :30:01. | :30:01. | |
seat. He is delighted Tweeting: Down shout, Zac is back, he resigned | :30:02. | :30:14. | |
his Tory seat last year in protest to Heathrow expansion and promptly | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
lost his seat to the Liberal Democrats. Well once again he is now | :30:18. | :30:19. | |
the Tory candidate. It's a practical decision - | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
who is most likely And on that basis, | :30:23. | :30:24. | |
people have made the I think it's the right decision, | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
I wouldn't have put my hat The Ukip leader is in the headlines | :30:28. | :30:45. | |
for comparing Ukip to Gandhi. It is a bit like the Gandhi thing, he | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
said. First they laugh at you, then they attack you and then you win. We | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
don't know if he is planning to stand in the coming election. | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
Elsewhere, Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have been on the campaign trail | :30:56. | :30:57. | |
in Cambridge this morning. Not sure what he was talking about, | :30:58. | :31:12. | |
maybe a new Lib Dem Slocombe. Elsewhere, we have been hearing from | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. He has been in Harlow, keen not to turn his back on | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
people there. He has been funding up to the electorate in a campaign | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
stump speech. Labour may be cheered by some diverse and high profile | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
support from the snooker community today. Ronnie O'Sullivan yesterday | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
tweeted his support for Jeremy Corbyn, before going on to get | :31:37. | :31:38. | |
knocked out of the World Championships. And here is one for | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
you. I know you are into grime, a maker of hip-hop, garage and jungle. | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, or Jay Z, has the backing of the crime artist JME, and | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
I think I can use my high-tech studio to do this. Yes, we had | :31:57. | :32:05. | |
better get out of that before the swearing. One last piece of news is | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
that we have heard that there will be a State Opening of Parliament on | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
the 19th of June, with a Queen's Speech for whoever wins. Thank you | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
for playing one of my more recent recordings. | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
Now, the Government has a strategy to stop people becoming terrorists | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
It's received enormous scrutiny over recent years, | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
and is now in the middle of yet another revamp. | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
In a moment, we'll hear from our guest of the day | :32:32. | :32:33. | |
Baroness Warsi on this, but first, Emma Vardy looks back | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
at the development of Prevent in city that found itself | :32:37. | :32:38. | |
In 2013, six young Muslim men from Portsmouth travelled | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
Initially, some believed this to be for humanitarian work, | :32:46. | :32:59. | |
as a sinister extremist organisation. | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
The realisation that six friends from Portsmouth had gone to join | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
them was a huge shock for the local community. | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
A police team from Special Branch began carrying out | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
Officers built new relationships with leaders at the city's mosques | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
They urged people, especially mothers, to speak up | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
if they felt their children may be being radicalised. | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
We really need families, schoolteachers, nurses and doctors | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
to tell us about their concerns long before someone goes on to become | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
a jihadi bride or commits a criminal act. | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
The city also had increasing problems with right-wing extremism. | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
The English Defence League targeted Portsmouth's largest mosque. | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
We've noticed that a lot of people that go to Syria actually | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
What sort of stereotypical views do we think of | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
Prevent officers in Portsmouth brought the fight against | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
radicalisation into the classroom, beginning a new programme | :34:04. | :34:05. | |
The goal is for students to understand | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
We want to get our message across that as far as possible, | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
we don't want to criminalise anybody. | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
They engaged with thousands of young people, discouraging travel | :34:20. | :34:21. | |
to Syria, but also discouraging radicalisation | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
It was one of the first cities in the UK where Prevent | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
was being used extensively to discourage radicalisation | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
The Prevent statutory duty prompted a significant step forward | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
in the delivery of Prevent work across all public | :34:40. | :34:41. | |
Now social workers, health care staff and teachers had a duty | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
Hundreds of front line staff in Portsmouth received | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
It prompted criticism that ordinary workers were being asked to spy | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
on people in their care, something repeatedly | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
refuted by those who work with the Prevent strategy. | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
Responsibility for Prevent was transferred from the police | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
The main part of our role is education to keep people safe. | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
We talk about British values, challenging extremism | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
through promoting democracy, freedom of speech. | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
Today if someone raises concerns about someone who may be | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
Portsmouth City Council's Prevent team | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
will carry out intervention work if they believe it is needed. | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
The process is usually kept highly confidential, | :35:34. | :35:35. | |
but Prevent teams are keen to stress that they see their work primarily | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
The long term solution has to be in the counter-extremism strategy | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
where civil societies come together and take on this ideological | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
that we have been challenging homophobia, racism and fascism. | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
That has to be the future and that is something | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
No one else from Portsmouth has since been known | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
to have travelled to Syria, but authorities believe | :36:02. | :36:03. | |
their counter-extremism work must continue. | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
Now, our guest of the day, Sayeeda Warsi, | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
is a long-standing critic of the Prevent programme and has | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
just written a book, The Enemy Within, | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
What is the evidence that Prevent has lost the confidence of the | :36:18. | :36:31. | |
Muslim community? Firstly, I have not been a long-standing critic of | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
the Prevent tragedy. I called a brave, dynamic and cutting edge when | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
it started in 2003 and when it was first published. The concern I have | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
is that over the years, you have to look at the way it is written as a | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
strategy. The iterations of it have changed. What started as a genuine | :36:48. | :36:57. | |
battle of ideas led by the community and prevention of people getting | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
into terrorism has ended up being a policy which has had concerns raised | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
from across the board. People like rights watch, Helena Kennedy, | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
Michael Mansfield, QC, the George Soros foundation, even David | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, has said | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
it is time to independently reviewed Prevent. But it has been reviewed a | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
lot. What is the evidence that it has lost the confidence of the | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
Muslim community? Like I said, there is a platter of reports in which | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
members of the Muslim community have given evidence. I can give you my | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
own evidence of people who are consistently bringing me up, parents | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
and teachers who are concerned about the level of training, the training | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
material, the people who are trained to train others, the number of | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
referrals, the opaqueness of all of this. Those of us who want Prevent | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
to work are saying it is time for an independent review. The fact that | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
the Government is digging its heels in, not prepared to have an | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
independent review, not putting into the public domain so much of what | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
could be contentious material and the opaqueness of the whole | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
strategy, I think is raising deep concerns. The president of the | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
national association of Muslim police said two years ago that | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
Prevent has moved on a lot. There were teething problems, but it is | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
moving in the right direction. Prevent has made a difference. We | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
have made a lot of progress. For every quote from someone who thinks | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
dock there are two sides to this. There are those who want to get rid | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
of Prevent. Others say it is working. The reality is somewhere in | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
the middle. Some bits of it have worked, others haven't. If I took | :38:45. | :38:53. | |
this as a very personal thing, it is up kind of thing where if I had | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
concerns about my children, I should be open to feel I could take them | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
there and it would not impact on them at their lives and we would get | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
genuine support. It is not that kind of place. It is not a space that | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
parents feel they can refer their children, and it should be. But some | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
are suspicious that Prevent is being undermined by a deliberate strategy | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
by reactionary forces in the Muslim community. I agree. There is | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
definitely a lobby out there which wants to do nothing but trash | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
Prevent. But the other side of the argument is that some believe that | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
if Prevent is such a great policy dock the Government has consistently | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
said it is a good policy. But it has openly said it doesn't apply in | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
Northern Ireland. There was a question in Parliament Ma Long ago | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
when a member of pollen said yes, but we were told that Prevent | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
doesn't apply to counterterrorism, it applies to Muslim communities. | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
But they have other programmes in Northern Ireland, as you know, | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
because similar issues have been a problem in Northern Ireland for | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
decades. And Prevent is seen as the golden standard. We are exported to | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
other parts of the world. Because there are these questions, the fact | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
that there is this debate, I am saying, let's have an independent | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
review of this. Let's have somebody like David Anderson, a well | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
respected lawyer, review all of this, somebody with expertise. And | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
let's have everybody who has concerns give evidence and hopefully | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
emerge from this with a stronger programme which a lot of us can | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
support. You write in your book that there is a disproportionate focus on | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
Islamist related terrorism. Why would there not be? Identical said | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
that. Have you read the book? I have just seen a summary. Well, I say in | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
the book that there is a policy at the moment which has a definition of | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
Islamist extremism which in my view and according to many other experts | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
is fundamentally flawed. But we don't have a definition of any other | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
form of extremism or terrorism. And if you look at the figures, you see | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
that these arguments, unfortunately, are far too complex to be dealt with | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
in a 32nd sound bite. It is why I wrote a book about it. But what is | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
not complex is that the overwhelming terror threat to us is Islamist. | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
That is a fact. So that is what we should be focusing on. We should be, | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
but if you look at the definition of Islamist extremism as it stands, we | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
are looking for the tell-tale signs of what makes a terrorist. The | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
tell-tale signs are anything from 15 to about 30. This is borne out by | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
the evidence of people who have studied the lives and profiles of | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
people who have been involved in terrorist attacks. And yet despite | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
these 15 to 30 tell-tale signs, government policy focuses on one. | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
That should worry us all, that we have a counterterrorism strategy | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
which follows a definition which doesn't encompass all the tell-tale | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
signs of what makes a terrorist. Do you think it was wrong for the | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Government to want people to ascribe to British values? What I say about | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
British values is that it is a list which is reductive. We should be | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
talking about British ideals. What should Britain be in 2017? When we | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
talk about British values, and I unpick this again in the book, we | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
cite the values that we break in policy-making. I give example after | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
example of where we say "These are our values", but in policy-making, | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
we fail to follow those values. We need a much more honest debate about | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
what Britain wants to be in 2017. When we have had that debate and we | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
have a set of British ideals to which we can all sign up, that | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
includes government. If we say we believe in X, we should be doing X. | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
But is there not a continuing problem with the growing isolation | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
of some Muslim communities, parts of our cities, especially in the north, | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
which are now overwhelmingly Muslim and inward to interact purely within | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
themselves and are not integrated with the rest of society? One of the | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
things I explore is the diversity amongst British Muslim Awards. I | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
talk about how from ethnicity to theology to class to profession, to | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
the way in which they live and where they live, as Muslim communities, we | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
are so diverse. One of the things I argue for it to make sure that we | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
talk about Britain's Muslim communities, we don't see them as a | :43:53. | :44:04. | |
monolithic block. That is true. The Muslim community is more diverse | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
than the French community, which is overwhelmingly from north Africa. | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
But there are clearly problems of a lack of integration, and it is | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
getting worse. Some Muslim communities are increasingly | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
isolated from the rest of us. I talk about some Muslim communities which | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
believe in a separatist isolation. We have those amongst all | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
communities. We have a Orthodox Jewish community which lives in a | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
separatist way. But one of the things I go back to in this book is | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
that I have a frank conversation with Britain's Muslim communities. I | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
said to them, we are not terrorists. There are 3 million of us. If we | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
were, we would have killed everybody. But how are we fit for | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
purpose in Britain in 2017? And I challenge them to raise their game | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
to make sure we are part of a bigger community. We should always bear in | :45:09. | :45:10. | |
mind that integration is a middle-class pastime. You and I | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
don't have a problem with integration because we presumably | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
live in nice houses and send our kids to nice schools and probably go | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
to the same nice resorts on holidays. But if you're at the | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
bottom of the pile, it doesn't matter what colour or religion you | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
are, then unfortunately, integration is not the top of your priority | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
list, it is survival. We have to be careful to draw a distinction | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
between those communities that are deliberately choosing to live | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
separate lives, and those that live separate lives because they have no | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
choice. Because of economic circumstances. Your book is called | :45:43. | :45:43. | |
The Enemy Within. Now, despite the best attempts | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
of the Lib Dem leader Tim Farron to focus attention back | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
on to the UK's relationship with the EU, he's had a bruising | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
couple of days which have seen him face scrutiny over his views on gay | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
sex and sack a would-be MP over At PMQs, Theresa May blasted | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
the decision to allow David Ward to stand in his old constituency | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
of Bradford East when asked about it by ex-Bradford | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
councillor Sir Eric Pickles. The Prime Minister has shown | :46:16. | :46:17. | |
considerable leadership in adopting the IHRA | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
definition of anti-Semitism. Does she believe it's | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
the duty of all party leaders within this House, | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
not just to pay lip service to it, And does she share my | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
disgust that a former Affairs Select Committee | :46:31. | :46:49. | |
for his anti-Semitic utterances, is now the official | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
candidate in Bradford East? People will be, I think, | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
rightly, disappointed to see the Liberal Democrats readopt | :46:54. | :47:05. | |
a candidate with a questionable It is important that all parties | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
maintain the strongest possible censure on all forms of intolerance | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
and send that message Just hours after that broadside, | :47:12. | :47:13. | |
Mr Farron reversed the decision to let David Ward stand | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
for the party on June 8th, At one stage he said it was nothing | :47:19. | :47:28. | |
to do with him and he didn't want to interview but a few hours later he | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
described him as "unfit to represent the party." | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
that he was "stunned and somewhat ashamed of my own party". | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
You know, how do you stop the House of Commons raising issues of Israel? | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
Well, what you do is you make sure that supporters of the Palestinians | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
don't get into the House of Commons and ask awkward questions | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
and this is the strategy and it works, doesn't it? | :47:55. | :48:03. | |
To discuss this, we're joined by James Sorene, | :48:04. | :48:05. | |
who used to work for Nick Clegg and is now the CEO of | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre. | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
David Ward said his sacking is designed to stop supporters of | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
Palestinians being elected, is he right nonsense. People in this | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
country have a rigorous debate about foreign policy issues, there are | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
lots of debates about Israel and the Palestinians and how to solve that | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
conflict. It is a smoke screen that is thrown up by people like David | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
Ward it make it seem like he is being silenced. If he wanted to | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
engage in a sensible debate about Israel and the Palestinians would've | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
been welcome to do so but what I did do was engage in a very dark side of | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
that kind of discussion which quickly trips into anti-Semitism. We | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
have mentioned the new definition of anti-Semitism talked about the | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
house, he pretty much ticked every box of the guidance notes of what | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
that definition is. So Mr Farron in your view was right to sack him? I | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
believe he was right. So what, in terms of the definition of | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
anti-Semitism, what is it that Mr Ward has said that was anti-Semitic | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
as opposed to being very strongly, perhaps virulently, anti-Israel? If | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
you look at the tweets he has written and the blogs, also that he | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
has written, he has various themes as caped of dangerous fantasy about | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
Israel no longer existing, or Israel not existing any more. He supported | :49:29. | :49:39. | |
Nsa Shah with a comment of Israelis being transferred to America and he | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
talked about things that is in the definition, that should be avoided. | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
He said if he lived in the Gaza strip he would fire rockets too. For | :49:50. | :49:58. | |
a British parliamentarian, it is stupid to say but is it anti | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
Semitic? I wouldn't think that was particularly anti-Semitic. He talks | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
about the apartheid state of Israel. To call it an apartheid state is a | :50:10. | :50:19. | |
long-standing Meme for anti-Israel but is it anti-itic as oi posed to | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
virulently anti-Israel. That particular comment may or may not | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
be. It depends on the context and what he is doing but if you look at | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
the to tality of his beliefs and what he said there are clear things | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
which are basically anti semitism, they are not having a sensible | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
debate about Israel and the Palestinians. My entire career is | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
based on sensible discussions about Israel and the Palestinians, what he | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
is doing is not that. What Tim Farron right to sack David Ward? He | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
was. I looked at some of the detailed stuff he said and what | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
David does is, he consistently confuses his very clear opposition | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
to the Israeli government... Which... Which I do all the time. | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
The current Israeli administration, I think lots of people within | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
Britain's Jewish communities would have concerns about the current | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
Israeli administration and he confuses that and a couple of | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
comments are about what he feels Jews are doing to Palestinians. | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
Interested you said, that I was looking through so. Things he said, | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
not all by any means a lot of what he said was, it seems to me, you are | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
clearly a real enemy of Israel but that may, that is not always the | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
same as being anti-Semitic but then I saw ones where he said "the Jews", | :51:37. | :51:44. | |
not Israel, he said "The Jews are inflicting atrocities on | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
Palestinians." I authority that may have been the, the use of "Jews." It | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
is an absolutely classic meme as you said of anti-Semite, that they will | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
talk about the Holocaust and talk about Israelis being like Nazis. It | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
is a classic, it is the most offensive thing you could possibly | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
do and you can talk about Israel, you can talk about all sort of | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
Middle East issues, you don't need to use Nazi imagery to make your | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
point and is clearly designed to be offensive, you are back in the Ken | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
Livingstone interview, by defending someone by talking about Hitler. It | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
is transparent and clear. It is like a dog whistle an air raid siren for | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
the followers, they know what is being talked about and they jump in | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
on it. James is right. I talk about these issues all the time. I say - | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
why would you even reach for the Holocaust or Hitler? How can they be | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
answers to what is happening in the Middle East. Interestingly, what | :52:40. | :52:48. | |
was, when Nas Shah said what she did and apologised. She said it was a | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
stupid car too, I shouldn't have put it out. And anyone coming out and | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
supporting a cartoon for which the original MP apologised for was a | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
daft thing to do. You said the British volunteer who is fight for | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
the Israeli Army should be treated as foreign fighters and prosecuted | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
on their return? No, what I have said if you are British and you want | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
it fight, you will fight for an army and fight for Britain only. It is a | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
very clear view I have. And that is whether you are British Pakistani, | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
British Indian, British Israeli, British whatever you may happen to | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
be. I think the law in this area is unclear. Should they be prosecuted, | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
so if you join the US Army or French for legion, if you come back you | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
should be prosecuted? This is the issue, at the moment the law is | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
unclear about who you join and which bit you join and how you are | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
prosecuted to how you come back. I think to clear it all up and to make | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
clear where you stand, if you are British, and you want to fight, you | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
fight for the British Armed Forces and you fight for no-one else. OK, | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
we'll leave it there. We asked David Ward to come on the programme but | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
declined. Parliament is shutting | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
up shop today. MPs and peers will not return | :53:57. | :53:57. | |
to their respective debating chambers until after the general | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
election on June 8th. But it will not be doing | :54:01. | :54:02. | |
so without ceremony. It's called prorogation and BBC | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
Parliament's Daniel Brittain went behind the scenes of the ceremony | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
in 2015 to explain The time of year when Parliament | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
is put into a deep sleep This time, though, there'll | :54:12. | :54:22. | |
be no fairy godmother Instead, with one stroke | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
of her wand, the wicked witch will dissolve them all next week | :54:26. | :54:34. | |
and the MPs will be sent into outer darkness, | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
or the election, as it's called. If you are looking for the heart | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
of the British constitution, then I think it's here | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
because sooner or later you're going to find yourself | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
in this hidden away coridor It leads to the Crown Office | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
and I think they keep it deliberately hidden away and it's | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
here that the final seal is put Within this office, | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
on instructions from the business managers of the House, | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
I will prepare this Royal Commission, it deals firstly | :55:06. | :55:16. | |
with the appointment of the Royal Commissioners | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
and will also give the commissioners or any three of them full power | :55:19. | :55:20. | |
and authority in our name to proroge This document will then go | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
to the Queen, she will sign the document at the top | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
at a Privy Council meeting which It'll then be returned | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
to me and will be dated, sealed with the great seal | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
of the realm. So it is literally signed, | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
sealed and delivered. Paperwork in place, | :55:40. | :55:41. | |
the show can begin. The peers are gathered | :55:42. | :55:51. | |
in the Chamber of the House of Lords and they despatch Black Rod off | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
to the Commons, collect the Commons, they bring them down here, | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
rabble from the Commons, they go into the Chamber | :55:58. | :55:59. | |
of the House of Lords and they meet Part of the ceremony of prorogation | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
is the giving of Royal Assent to those bills that await Royal | :56:03. | :56:18. | |
Assent and the Clerk of the Crown announces the title of each bill | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
and then I look at the Commons and use the words of Royal Assent | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
on behalf of the Queen. And that, of course, | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
is done in Norman French. That is to say - the Queen | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
wishes it and we go There are actually two variations | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
on that formula, one of which I shall be | :56:38. | :56:48. | |
using on this occasion. The longest is for what's called | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
supply bills which are effectively La Reyne remercie ses bons | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
sujets, accepte leur In other words, the Queen | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
thanks her good subjects, accepts their benevolence | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
and thus, wishes it so. Is it any different to ordinary | :57:04. | :57:05. | |
French, Norman French? I'm afraid I know no Norman French | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
other than the words that I thought you all went | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
around chatting in Norman At Her Majesty's command this | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
Royal Variety Performance is due As some would say - | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
La Reyne, le veult. And we're joined now | :57:25. | :57:36. | |
from Central Lobby by our Parliamentary Correspondent, | :57:37. | :57:38. | |
Sean Curran. We were going to conduct this | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
interview in Norman French but have run out of time N this wash-up | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
period, what has got through and what hasn't? . -- in this wash-up | :57:47. | :57:55. | |
period? What has the Government dropped because of time? The | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
northern Bill was rushed through. The Finance Bill, enacting Philip | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
Hammond's Budget and in the last couple of hours, a private member's | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
bill on the registration of Farriers looks like it'll make it on to the | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
statute Bill. The biggest casualty the Prison and Court Bill which will | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
overhaul the prison system in England and Wales. That is shelved | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
for now. Obviously if the Conservatives get back in, that | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
could be resurrected in the Queen's Speech. Parliamentary business lend | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
in a few hours' time. Parliament will be dissolved at one minute past | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
midnight on Wednesday. At that point there are no more MPs, all the | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
people who normally work here are ordinary citizens with no special | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
privileges. They will continue to get paid until polling day. That's | :58:44. | :58:44. | |
good to know. Thank you very much. The One O'Clock News is starting | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
over on BBC One now. I will be joined by Michael | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
Portillo, Alan Johnson, Giles Fraser, Helen Lewis, | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
John Nicolson, Sian Berry and Dustin Lance Black | :58:57. | :58:58. | |
on This Week from 11.45. | :58:59. | :59:02. |