27/04/2017 Daily Politics


27/04/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by former Conservative Party chair and communities minister Sayeeda Warsi. They discuss housing policy, North Korea and Trump's first 100 days in office.


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Boris Johnson hits the election campaign

:00:38.:00:42.

is not just a "mutton-headed mugwump",

:00:43.:00:47.

but has the Foreign Secretary undermined his own credibility

:00:48.:00:49.

Tensions are high on the Korean peninsula

:00:50.:00:53.

but the US says it wants to bring the North Korean leader

:00:54.:00:56.

we'll ask one of Donald Trump's advisors what that means.

:00:57.:01:02.

Zac's back but other prospective candidates are sacked -

:01:03.:01:04.

with the Daily Politics Desk of Election News.

:01:05.:01:11.

And parliament shuts up shop today in a quintessentially British way -

:01:12.:01:15.

Obviously, all this coverage of the French elections is catching on!

:01:16.:01:48.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today,

:01:49.:01:51.

someone who's well used to hearing Norman French

:01:52.:01:53.

as a member of the House of Lords -

:01:54.:01:55.

So, for the first time since Theresa May called the election,

:01:56.:01:59.

Boris Johnson has been deployed this morning.

:02:00.:02:01.

the Foreign Secretary launched a personal attack on Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:02.:02:04.

referring to him as a "mutton-headed old mugwump".

:02:05.:02:06.

A "mugwump", by the way, is apparently a person

:02:07.:02:08.

who remains aloof or independent from party politics.

:02:09.:02:16.

It comes from the 1886 American presidential campaign, where

:02:17.:02:24.

Republicans left their candidate and put the support behind Grover

:02:25.:02:28.

Cleveland, who won, the first Democratic candidate to win since

:02:29.:02:33.

the end of the civil war. They became known as mugwump. What that

:02:34.:02:37.

has to do with Mr Corbyn, I have no idea.

:02:38.:02:38.

Having suggested that Britain's security would not be safe

:02:39.:02:40.

in Mr Corbyn's hands, Mr Johnson was asked to clarify

:02:41.:02:42.

the Government's own position on supporting US action in Syria.

:02:43.:02:45.

I think it would be very difficult if the United States has a proposal

:02:46.:02:48.

to have some sort of action in response to a chemical weapons

:02:49.:02:51.

attack and if they come to us and ask for our support,

:02:52.:02:54.

whether it's with submarine-based cruise missiles in the Med

:02:55.:02:56.

or whatever it happens to be, as was the case back in 2013,

:02:57.:03:01.

John, in my view, and I know this is also the view

:03:02.:03:04.

of the Prime Minister, it would be very difficult

:03:05.:03:06.

What do you make of that? Well, we would have to know what we were

:03:07.:03:20.

saying yes to. Syria has been going on since 2011. We have had a

:03:21.:03:24.

chemical attack before in 2013. We have had a policy where we have

:03:25.:03:28.

consistently said Assad must go, but he's still there. In 2017, we need

:03:29.:03:33.

to be careful because the US hasn't made it clear what the strike was

:03:34.:03:38.

about and what next. What the endgame was. Exactly. Targeted

:03:39.:03:42.

strikes are important, because it could be part of a strategy to get

:03:43.:03:45.

Assad to the negotiation table, but the fact that we haven't heard since

:03:46.:03:50.

that strike what the US are trying to achieve, they haven't been saying

:03:51.:03:54.

Assad must go in the way have in recent times. The relationship

:03:55.:03:58.

between them and Russia, of course, impacts on what happens in Syria. So

:03:59.:04:02.

we can't just say yes, we have to ask why. He also seemed to muddy the

:04:03.:04:08.

waters a bit in that if such a decision was required, he said it

:04:09.:04:11.

would be up to the Prime Minister to decide, whereas recent practice has

:04:12.:04:18.

been to go to Parliament on these matters. What do you think? It is

:04:19.:04:24.

not entirely clear what the convention this. The Prime Minister

:04:25.:04:31.

does have absolute right to commit our troops without going to

:04:32.:04:34.

Parliament. And sometimes the element of surprise is necessary.

:04:35.:04:37.

Because of what has happened in recent times, before we commit our

:04:38.:04:40.

troops, I think prime ministers do come back to the House and I presume

:04:41.:04:45.

Theresa May would follow that. Is there a distinction between going to

:04:46.:04:47.

the Commons and committing troops, as opposed to firing cruise missiles

:04:48.:04:54.

from submarines in the Met? I suppose our young men and women are

:04:55.:04:57.

not at risk in the same way if we were to put troops on the ground,

:04:58.:05:01.

but I still go back to this question - what are we trying to achieve as

:05:02.:05:06.

an international community, and what would Britain bring to that

:05:07.:05:08.

coalition which makes it necessary to be involved? Those are questions

:05:09.:05:14.

that need to go before Parliament. Is Jeremy Corbyn a mutton headed old

:05:15.:05:21.

mugwump? This is just Boris being Boris. Jeremy Corbyn is an

:05:22.:05:25.

ineffective leader of the Labour Party, which means he can never be

:05:26.:05:32.

an effective Prime Minister. Without sounding ultra-confident, Jeremy

:05:33.:05:34.

Corbyn is not going to be Prime Minister. I don't think we need to

:05:35.:05:39.

resort to personal attacks on him. It is obvious that he can't run a

:05:40.:05:42.

political party and would not be able to run the country. Using the

:05:43.:05:47.

phrase mutton headed old mugwump, which, other than the alliteration,

:05:48.:05:52.

I'm not sure what the purpose of that phrase is... I had to look it

:05:53.:06:00.

up. Is it personal? It was something I felt comfortable with as party

:06:01.:06:05.

chairman. I don't think we need to resort to personal attacks,

:06:06.:06:07.

certainly not in the current general election, where we are so far ahead

:06:08.:06:10.

in the polls. It is clear from everything coming back but the

:06:11.:06:13.

question is not whether Theresa May will be Prime Minister, it is what

:06:14.:06:17.

the size of her majority will be. We should get on with telling the

:06:18.:06:23.

country the mandate that we want, how we are going to govern, the

:06:24.:06:29.

policies that are important to us, publish our manifesto. Jeremy can

:06:30.:06:34.

damage himself by himself. How big a part should Mr Johnson played in the

:06:35.:06:38.

campaign? Is he an asset to your party or a loose cannon? It depends

:06:39.:06:43.

on the kind of campaign we want to run. He certainly gets a lot of

:06:44.:06:47.

attention and a lot of people like him. He has huge face and name

:06:48.:06:53.

recognition and certainly provide entertainment and light-heartedness

:06:54.:06:55.

to some campaigns. But I think Theresa wants to run this as a

:06:56.:06:59.

serious campaign, and it is a serious time. The reason the

:07:00.:07:03.

election has been called us because we are going into serious

:07:04.:07:07.

negotiations. And he is the Foreign Secretary. But Boris is always

:07:08.:07:11.

Boris, whether as Foreign Secretary or Mayor of London. He is a great

:07:12.:07:16.

guy, I just don't think that this election requires us to have any

:07:17.:07:21.

personal attacks on anybody. At least it brought mugwump back into

:07:22.:07:25.

the political lexicon. It hasn't been used for a long time. And we

:07:26.:07:31.

all missed it. I missed it, actually! But that is just me.

:07:32.:07:33.

Now, another morning and another party leader is out

:07:34.:07:36.

on the campaign trail - this morning, Jeremy Corbyn took

:07:37.:07:38.

Very little actual concrete policy - they tell us we'll have to wait

:07:39.:07:44.

for the manifesto on May 15th for the actual detail.

:07:45.:07:47.

But this morning as they visited voters,

:07:48.:07:48.

Jeremy Corbyn reiterated his pledge to build 100,000 affordable

:07:49.:07:50.

council and housing association homes

:07:51.:07:54.

They have also claimed that Labour-led councils build more homes

:07:55.:08:00.

This is what Jeremy Corbyn had to say.

:08:01.:08:04.

A Labour Government won't stand by and watch

:08:05.:08:07.

We will build a million homes over the period of a Parliament,

:08:08.:08:13.

half of which will be council and housing association for rent

:08:14.:08:17.

We want our young people growing up with security, so they can

:08:18.:08:29.

achieve more in school, in college and go on to university.

:08:30.:08:37.

We can speak now to Labour's Jack Dromey,

:08:38.:08:39.

So just an aspiration here, no policy? It is a firm commitment to

:08:40.:08:55.

build a million homes a year. Not a million a year. I beg your pardon, a

:08:56.:09:02.

million over a five-year period. And half of those homes would be built

:09:03.:09:06.

by councils and housing associations to rent and to buy. It is a welcome

:09:07.:09:11.

commitment because we are engulfed by the biggest housing crisis in a

:09:12.:09:17.

generation. No government has done enough, to be frank, but our record

:09:18.:09:20.

was so much better. We built 2 million new homes, a million more

:09:21.:09:24.

homeowners now. Home ownership is now falling for the first time since

:09:25.:09:29.

the 1920s. We brought up to standard the 1.8 million council and social

:09:30.:09:35.

homes. We slashed homelessness. And when we had the financial crisis in

:09:36.:09:41.

2008, I worked with John Healey when he was the housing minister and I

:09:42.:09:44.

was typically general secretary of my union. We worked together to put

:09:45.:09:50.

a programme together, the kick-start programme, which sold 120,000 homes

:09:51.:09:56.

built, workers kept in the building jobs and avoided the collapse of the

:09:57.:10:02.

construction industry. Why should we believe a firm commitment to you all

:10:03.:10:08.

from you to build 200,000 new homes a year when you never succeeded in

:10:09.:10:11.

doing that in the 13 years you were in power? Because that is what the

:10:12.:10:18.

country now demands. But you didn't do it before. In the way I have

:10:19.:10:22.

described, we have a good track record. You never built 200,000 new

:10:23.:10:28.

homes a year. I made it clear that no government has ever done enough.

:10:29.:10:33.

The question is who has got the determination to build affordable

:10:34.:10:35.

homes to rent and to buy that the country wants. The idea that you

:10:36.:10:41.

have a generation now growing up, often into their 40s, having to stay

:10:42.:10:44.

at home with mum and dad or in costly, insecure rented private

:10:45.:10:48.

sector accommodation is plain wrong. It would be one of our top

:10:49.:10:52.

priorities. Not just the homes that people want, but the jobs it

:10:53.:10:56.

creates. If you have good homes, that helps improve people's health,

:10:57.:11:00.

because damp and overcrowded homes damage health. It is an utter

:11:01.:11:06.

determination to tackle the housing crisis. But the only way we can

:11:07.:11:09.

judge that determination is to look at your past record. We have no

:11:10.:11:14.

details of the policy of how you are going to do this. You are talking

:11:15.:11:24.

about 100,000 new council housing houses as part of the mix. In the 13

:11:25.:11:28.

years you were in power, how many council houses did you build? Not

:11:29.:11:40.

enough. How many? You built 7870. That was in 13 years. But you expect

:11:41.:11:44.

us to believe you will build 100,000 a year now? But we inherited from a

:11:45.:11:50.

Conservative government when we came to power in 1997 social housing

:11:51.:11:55.

stock in this country that was a scandal. Damp homes, badly heated

:11:56.:12:04.

homes. We made a decision that with those already in those homes, we had

:12:05.:12:08.

to bring them up to standard. It has transformed the lives of millions.

:12:09.:12:13.

Did we build enough new social homes? No, we didn't. But if you

:12:14.:12:19.

look at what is happening now, if you live in an area where you have a

:12:20.:12:24.

Labour council, you see 50% more homes being built by that Labour

:12:25.:12:28.

council. Here I am in Birmingham, where we are getting close to 3000

:12:29.:12:33.

homes a year. A third of those are being built by Birmingham City

:12:34.:12:38.

Council. A leading Labour member of the London Assembly says Labour

:12:39.:12:40.

should apologise for its record on council housing in government. I

:12:41.:12:46.

have made it clear. No government has ever done enough. He is saying

:12:47.:12:51.

you should apologise. He said more council homes were built in the last

:12:52.:13:00.

year of Thatcher's government than were built in 13 years of a Labour

:13:01.:13:06.

government. But the Thatcher government and John Major government

:13:07.:13:09.

than left us with the mess of the best part of 2 million social homes,

:13:10.:13:16.

most of them in disrepair. We acted to put that right. That was our

:13:17.:13:20.

priority. Should there be more council homes built? Yes, without

:13:21.:13:25.

doubt. But look at the record of what Labour councils do compared to

:13:26.:13:29.

Conservative councils. We build homes, they don't build anywhere

:13:30.:13:36.

near far enough or fast enough. How will you pay for 100,000 new social

:13:37.:13:43.

homes a year? Both by way of direct investment, but also intelligent

:13:44.:13:45.

arrangements. As shadow housing minister, I worked with the housing

:13:46.:13:50.

associations. I have seen it in my own constituency of the Abbey Fields

:13:51.:13:57.

estate is working with housing associations but also Birmingham

:13:58.:14:02.

City Council. We have mixed housing. But where will the money come from?

:14:03.:14:08.

The mixed housing is different and buy. On a basic level, you have an

:14:09.:14:12.

estate where you have people from different backgrounds living

:14:13.:14:16.

together. Some people buy, and that helps you build homes for social

:14:17.:14:20.

web. It is a combination of investment and that kind of

:14:21.:14:24.

intelligent mixed community building that generates the money necessary.

:14:25.:14:28.

Here in Birmingham, we now have something called the Bromley bond,

:14:29.:14:32.

where you have private sector companies who are wanting to invest

:14:33.:14:38.

in a new social housing come in mixed tenure estates in the way I

:14:39.:14:42.

have described. We also have a Chinese company which is going to

:14:43.:14:47.

invest ?2 billion in housing in Birmingham. So if you have the will,

:14:48.:14:53.

there is a way. Have you costed 100,000 new social houses? Yes. And

:14:54.:15:00.

you will see that in our manifesto. You can't tell me today? I have

:15:01.:15:04.

given you a strong steer about how we do it. It is a combination of

:15:05.:15:08.

direct investment, and this government has been cutting back on

:15:09.:15:13.

investment in social housing. Councils of all political

:15:14.:15:16.

persuasions have been complaining bitterly about what the Government

:15:17.:15:20.

is doing. So it is a combination of investment in social housing with

:15:21.:15:24.

the kind of intelligent approach which levers in investment from the

:15:25.:15:30.

private sector in building mixed community areas. Family, Mr Corbyn

:15:31.:15:34.

campaign for the Labour leadership on rent controls. Were those feature

:15:35.:15:40.

in the Labour manifesto? We are certainly going to act on a chronic

:15:41.:15:45.

problem of insecurity in the private rented sector, often poor

:15:46.:15:49.

accommodation in the private sector and soaring and unpredictable rents.

:15:50.:15:55.

Will there be rent controls? That will be at the heart of our

:15:56.:16:01.

manifesto. You will see what we say. One more time, will there be rent

:16:02.:16:05.

controls? Mr Corbyn is in favour of them. Will they feature in the

:16:06.:16:11.

manifesto? Wait and see. We will transform the private rented sector

:16:12.:16:15.

in the best interests of private tenants, good landlords, of which

:16:16.:16:20.

there are many in this country, but also tackling bad landlords. More

:16:21.:16:26.

secure, higher quality private rented sector.

:16:27.:16:34.

Depufrp We will leave it there. You are not answering my question, all

:16:35.:16:38.

I'm getting is rhetoric You are getting answers. The one thing I am

:16:39.:16:44.

not getting. Never mind always a pleasure to discuss these matters

:16:45.:16:49.

with you. Housing is a problem. A big problem. This Conservative

:16:50.:16:56.

Government has been in power now for six, into its seventh year and you

:16:57.:17:00.

are still way short of 200,000 new homes a year. We are. I think the

:17:01.:17:04.

last figures were 190,000. We think that the figures should be... Not as

:17:05.:17:09.

high as that I think that was the UK overall. Less in England. 2015-16 I

:17:10.:17:18.

think it was 2700,000. You will have to correct me on the area. We said

:17:19.:17:24.

we have to build 225,000 to 275,000 houses, new additions a year. Not

:17:25.:17:28.

just building new houses but conversions as well. Where I agree

:17:29.:17:32.

with Jack is that successive governments, we are talking back to

:17:33.:17:37.

the Thatcher years as to when council housing was being bi.

:17:38.:17:40.

Successive governments have failed to keep up with demand and the needs

:17:41.:17:45.

of Britain. Starts in England around 142,000 in the past two years I was

:17:46.:17:49.

looking at some figures this mornings the latest figures I had

:17:50.:17:54.

for 2015-16 were 190,000, I was comparing them to the last Labour

:17:55.:17:57.

figures we had. I think you will find it is for the UK as a whole.

:17:58.:18:02.

Right. I think Labour figures were 130,000.

:18:03.:18:04.

Now, it's a truism in politics that one campaigns in poetry

:18:05.:18:06.

Your view of Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric

:18:07.:18:10.

may have you doubting the timeless quality of that remark,

:18:11.:18:12.

so as we reach the hundredth day of Mr Trump's Presidency,

:18:13.:18:15.

perhaps he ought to chew over another maxim,

:18:16.:18:17.

one put forward by a British Prime Minister:

:18:18.:18:20.

that "events, dear boy, events" are the things most likely

:18:21.:18:22.

And like so many occupants of the Oval Office before him,

:18:23.:18:27.

Mr Trump's been buffeted by cold political winds from

:18:28.:18:29.

Tensions have risen in north-east Asia amid concerns over new nuclear

:18:30.:18:36.

weapons tests conducted by North Korea.

:18:37.:18:39.

Washington, Beijing and Seoul believe that North Korea could very

:18:40.:18:42.

soon have nuclear weapons with inter-continental capability,

:18:43.:18:48.

meaning they could be used to target cities

:18:49.:19:09.

North Korea says it'll "never stop" testing nuclear weapons so long

:19:10.:19:17.

as the US continues alleged "acts of aggression",

:19:18.:19:19.

while US Vice-President Mike Pence promised his country would meet

:19:20.:19:21.

with an "overwhelming" military response.

:19:22.:19:24.

Donald Trump invited all 100 American senators

:19:25.:19:27.

to a White House briefing to discuss the situation.

:19:28.:19:29.

But the rhetoric from Washington appears to have been dialled down,

:19:30.:19:30.

with the US military's commander in the Pacific theatre saying

:19:31.:19:33.

they wanted to bring Kim Jong-Un

:19:34.:19:34.

"to his senses, not to his knees".

:19:35.:19:36.

And we're joined now to discuss this by Sebastian Gorka.

:19:37.:19:38.

He's a deputy assistant and strategist in the White House.

:19:39.:19:38.

Welcome to the programme. # Thank you. Bring the Korean dictator to

:19:39.:19:46.

his senses, not his knees. What would it mean in policy terms? Well

:19:47.:19:50.

this up thing about this administration, we do not tend to

:19:51.:19:53.

give away the play book in advance. But if you look at events over the

:19:54.:19:57.

past three weeks it is clear we have sent a message to several nations

:19:58.:20:00.

that have client states that they have to draw their own internal red

:20:01.:20:06.

lines for what kind of behaviour they will countenance from those

:20:07.:20:10.

client states, whether it is Russia with Syria or whether it is China

:20:11.:20:13.

with North Korea. North Korea will not be solved in by lateral

:20:14.:20:18.

discussions. It's not a normal nation, so right now, I think the

:20:19.:20:24.

summit, the results of that summit, especially the turn around the

:20:25.:20:32.

Korean coal shipment, tells you things are going in the right

:20:33.:20:37.

direction. What do you expect core China to do? North Korea relies on

:20:38.:20:44.

China. China has leverage. Zo they can exercise that. What is the game

:20:45.:20:49.

here? What do you want China to do? The game is a very simple one. North

:20:50.:20:53.

Korea has to stop taking action that is are destabilising to the region

:20:54.:20:59.

and stop behaving in a way that in material breach of the numerous

:21:00.:21:03.

international requirements with regards to weapons of mass

:21:04.:21:06.

destruction programmes and ballistic missiles. What indications do you

:21:07.:21:10.

have that China is prepared to use its leverage in that direction? The

:21:11.:21:13.

most obvious is what happened with the coal shipment but beyond that we

:21:14.:21:18.

are thot going to force our hand or Beijing's hand. This is very

:21:19.:21:21.

delicate stuff. Remember, it is a nation that is more Stalinist than

:21:22.:21:27.

Joseph Stalin's USS R was and as such, it is not your normal actors

:21:28.:21:34.

let's put it like that. The British secretary said today, military

:21:35.:21:40.

actions are "not the way forward" and risk "huge and hideous

:21:41.:21:45.

reprisals" what do you say? I say that what the President has

:21:46.:21:49.

demonstrated in the past 14 weeks is that state craft is never the only

:21:50.:21:56.

function. There is not only one way of solving things, diplomacy without

:21:57.:21:59.

the option of force is just words and pieces of paper, a state craft

:22:00.:22:04.

requires the application of all the tools of state craft, all the

:22:05.:22:07.

instruments of power at the right time. That is why we sent a very

:22:08.:22:11.

clear message. It's not about leading from behind. It is not just

:22:12.:22:15.

about meetings in Geneva or vee ennia. It is about the -- Vienna, it

:22:16.:22:21.

is about the toppings, should it be required to use other tools as well.

:22:22.:22:24.

-- it is about the option. What is the message? That America is

:22:25.:22:28.

back, there are red lines and we will execute. What is the red line?

:22:29.:22:35.

Well, in recent weeks it's the use of weapons against innocent women

:22:36.:22:39.

and children. But in North Korea what is the red line? Again, we

:22:40.:22:42.

don't give our play book away. You have said you have made it very

:22:43.:22:46.

clear but it is not... We have made it clear at a political level but we

:22:47.:22:50.

will not talk about the tactical or operational theatre triggers, that's

:22:51.:22:53.

what the Obama administration did with Mosul and what the Clinton

:22:54.:23:01.

administration did with the Balkans. If you broadcast all of your

:23:02.:23:05.

potential triggers those will be used against you. One Republican

:23:06.:23:11.

senator after the briefing said it lacked "Straight answers on the

:23:12.:23:16.

policy of North Korea and its testing of ICBM?" I would disagree.

:23:17.:23:20.

But you weren't there? This is making a discussion, a comment about

:23:21.:23:24.

an unclassified meeting, then, I would disagree. But what is the

:23:25.:23:34.

policy on ICBMs? The North Koreans continue to test missiles to give

:23:35.:23:39.

them an ICBM capability and with that they are able to miniaturise

:23:40.:23:44.

the nuclear weapons so they could nuclearise an ICBM, if they continue

:23:45.:23:49.

down that road f Chinese pressure either doesn't happen, or doesn't

:23:50.:23:52.

deter them, what is the American reaction? Again, we do not show our

:23:53.:23:56.

cards to the players at the poker table. But, the vice-president was

:23:57.:24:03.

very clear in his tour of Asia last week, the capacity to inflict

:24:04.:24:08.

physical damage on our Allies or partners or our nation will not be

:24:09.:24:12.

countenanced. How we will get to that point, whether it will be

:24:13.:24:17.

through multilateral diplomacy, behind the scenes, second track,

:24:18.:24:22.

third track negotiations, the use of force in some demonstrable fashion

:24:23.:24:25.

to send a message are options on the table but we will not declare what

:24:26.:24:29.

those options will be at a certain time. Do you accept, though, that if

:24:30.:24:34.

there was a military response to undermine or destroy North Korea's

:24:35.:24:46.

ICBM capabilities, that the price would be a rain of fire on the South

:24:47.:24:52.

Korean capital? Everybody knows the geography and the distance. About 70

:24:53.:24:59.

miles And the North Koreans have massive artillery to hit a modern,

:25:00.:25:07.

big population, Westernised city Nevertheless, there are numerous

:25:08.:25:10.

other tools that can be used. I'm not going to comment, I'm in the

:25:11.:25:15.

going to confirm or deny but there have been stories about why that

:25:16.:25:23.

recent test failed. It didn't fail because a bomb was dropped on the

:25:24.:25:33.

missile pad. Cyber warfare Is one theory I'm in the going to comment

:25:34.:25:39.

on. I'm not going to confirm or deny it. Then there were missiles

:25:40.:25:44.

launched on the Syrian airfield after the attacks, you can see that

:25:45.:25:49.

in terms of a punishment act of what had been done by the Assad regime

:25:50.:25:52.

but what is the strategy behind it? What is the strategy? Yes Very

:25:53.:25:56.

similar to what we are doing in North Korea. Assad's regime has

:25:57.:26:02.

significant sponsors, one of them is Russia and we sent a message that

:26:03.:26:08.

you may want to reconsider just how far your sponsorship goes when you

:26:09.:26:13.

have a client that is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own

:26:14.:26:16.

citizens. That is a strategic response. And as you saw with

:26:17.:26:24.

regards to Secretary Tillerson's cancelled meeting with Vladimir

:26:25.:26:28.

Putin and what led to that meeting, the desired effect of that use of

:26:29.:26:33.

force were arrived at. Hang on, what has been different about Russian

:26:34.:26:36.

actions in Syrian since the attack? It is not actions in Syria, it is

:26:37.:26:42.

clearly their reassessment of just how deep and how far that

:26:43.:26:45.

relationship will go and their openness to talk to our Cabinet

:26:46.:26:50.

members on these issues. But I don't know what's changed on the ground

:26:51.:26:54.

since that attack. I mean within 24 hours the Syrian Air Force was

:26:55.:27:01.

taking off from that very airfield and hitting civilian areas, which

:27:02.:27:05.

were deemed to be rebels. So what changed? By the way, why the 59

:27:06.:27:13.

cruise missiles, why did they do so little damage? What were those

:27:14.:27:19.

aircraft? They were prefueled. They didn't have the capacity to fuel

:27:20.:27:27.

them. It was smoke a irmirrors, in almost every interview I give, I

:27:28.:27:32.

have to remind people this is week 14, not month 14. Patients is a

:27:33.:27:36.

virtue. What do you make of what you have heard? It goes to the questions

:27:37.:27:39.

I was asking at the beginning - what is the strategy and what we are kind

:27:40.:27:43.

of hearing, well there is a strength we're not going to tell anybody what

:27:44.:27:47.

it is, we'll not deny or confirm the strategy. As international partners

:27:48.:27:50.

of somebody who sat in the Foreign Office for two-and-a-half years, if

:27:51.:27:54.

we are going to commit to supporting strategies, well, we need to know

:27:55.:27:57.

what is going on, and I think even in relation to Syria, it was obvious

:27:58.:28:01.

that we didn't know what was going on until it had happened In World

:28:02.:28:06.

War Two, what did we do with regard to the Third Reich? Did we advertise

:28:07.:28:09.

our strategies? In fact we did the opposite. We convinced Hitler we

:28:10.:28:14.

were coming over Calais, not in fact coming over on the beaches of

:28:15.:28:18.

Normandy, that's strategic action. Well that was a tactic, what we did

:28:19.:28:22.

in temples strategy, was leave nobody in any doubt that we were

:28:23.:28:26.

going for the total destruction of Nazi Germany. That was the strategy

:28:27.:28:31.

and nobody was in any doubt... But how you achieve it. A tactic not a

:28:32.:28:37.

strategy. Don't mix terms. The discussion between Allies was clear

:28:38.:28:40.

on what the strategy was. Ultimately there is no doubt in anybody's mind

:28:41.:28:45.

that Assad has committed the most vile murders and acts in his own

:28:46.:28:48.

country. He is still there. But he is still there. We have been saying

:28:49.:28:53.

since 2011, Assad must G I'm not sure what the US policy is now on

:28:54.:28:58.

whether he must or must not G that hasn't been clarified We don't can

:28:59.:29:03.

have what the Obama administration had, an article of faith that he

:29:04.:29:07.

must G we are going to deal with the people that support him because it

:29:08.:29:11.

has to be. The bottom line is the killing has to sto. You asked about

:29:12.:29:15.

the difference between strategies and objectives, our objective is the

:29:16.:29:19.

killing has to stop. What the permutation is for that, who is in

:29:20.:29:25.

power, that lab political -- that will be a political power, a

:29:26.:29:28.

political process. Now, it's a snap general election,

:29:29.:29:31.

so the parties have had to work at breakneck speed

:29:32.:29:33.

to select candidates. But don't worry - our Ellie's been

:29:34.:29:35.

keeping up with it all and has all the details of those

:29:36.:29:38.

and more besides with the Daily Politics

:29:39.:29:40.

Desk of Election News. Yes and here it is, welcome, with a

:29:41.:29:47.

hastily erected sign, we have a chair and a computer. So what more

:29:48.:29:51.

could you want? Today we have been getting more details of who is going

:29:52.:29:55.

to fight this election and it is a blast from the Tory past. Esther

:29:56.:30:00.

McVey, remember her, she has been selected to fight George Osborne's

:30:01.:30:01.

seat. He is delighted Tweeting: Down shout, Zac is back, he resigned

:30:02.:30:14.

his Tory seat last year in protest to Heathrow expansion and promptly

:30:15.:30:17.

lost his seat to the Liberal Democrats. Well once again he is now

:30:18.:30:19.

the Tory candidate. It's a practical decision -

:30:20.:30:22.

who is most likely And on that basis,

:30:23.:30:24.

people have made the I think it's the right decision,

:30:25.:30:27.

I wouldn't have put my hat The Ukip leader is in the headlines

:30:28.:30:45.

for comparing Ukip to Gandhi. It is a bit like the Gandhi thing, he

:30:46.:30:48.

said. First they laugh at you, then they attack you and then you win. We

:30:49.:30:52.

don't know if he is planning to stand in the coming election.

:30:53.:30:55.

Elsewhere, Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have been on the campaign trail

:30:56.:30:57.

in Cambridge this morning. Not sure what he was talking about,

:30:58.:31:12.

maybe a new Lib Dem Slocombe. Elsewhere, we have been hearing from

:31:13.:31:16.

Jeremy Corbyn. He has been in Harlow, keen not to turn his back on

:31:17.:31:23.

people there. He has been funding up to the electorate in a campaign

:31:24.:31:27.

stump speech. Labour may be cheered by some diverse and high profile

:31:28.:31:31.

support from the snooker community today. Ronnie O'Sullivan yesterday

:31:32.:31:36.

tweeted his support for Jeremy Corbyn, before going on to get

:31:37.:31:38.

knocked out of the World Championships. And here is one for

:31:39.:31:44.

you. I know you are into grime, a maker of hip-hop, garage and jungle.

:31:45.:31:50.

Jeremy Corbyn, or Jay Z, has the backing of the crime artist JME, and

:31:51.:31:56.

I think I can use my high-tech studio to do this. Yes, we had

:31:57.:32:05.

better get out of that before the swearing. One last piece of news is

:32:06.:32:10.

that we have heard that there will be a State Opening of Parliament on

:32:11.:32:13.

the 19th of June, with a Queen's Speech for whoever wins. Thank you

:32:14.:32:20.

for playing one of my more recent recordings.

:32:21.:32:22.

Now, the Government has a strategy to stop people becoming terrorists

:32:23.:32:25.

It's received enormous scrutiny over recent years,

:32:26.:32:28.

and is now in the middle of yet another revamp.

:32:29.:32:31.

In a moment, we'll hear from our guest of the day

:32:32.:32:33.

Baroness Warsi on this, but first, Emma Vardy looks back

:32:34.:32:36.

at the development of Prevent in city that found itself

:32:37.:32:38.

In 2013, six young Muslim men from Portsmouth travelled

:32:39.:32:45.

Initially, some believed this to be for humanitarian work,

:32:46.:32:59.

as a sinister extremist organisation.

:33:00.:33:07.

The realisation that six friends from Portsmouth had gone to join

:33:08.:33:09.

them was a huge shock for the local community.

:33:10.:33:14.

A police team from Special Branch began carrying out

:33:15.:33:17.

Officers built new relationships with leaders at the city's mosques

:33:18.:33:24.

They urged people, especially mothers, to speak up

:33:25.:33:28.

if they felt their children may be being radicalised.

:33:29.:33:32.

We really need families, schoolteachers, nurses and doctors

:33:33.:33:34.

to tell us about their concerns long before someone goes on to become

:33:35.:33:37.

a jihadi bride or commits a criminal act.

:33:38.:33:42.

The city also had increasing problems with right-wing extremism.

:33:43.:33:46.

The English Defence League targeted Portsmouth's largest mosque.

:33:47.:33:51.

We've noticed that a lot of people that go to Syria actually

:33:52.:33:54.

What sort of stereotypical views do we think of

:33:55.:33:58.

Prevent officers in Portsmouth brought the fight against

:33:59.:34:03.

radicalisation into the classroom, beginning a new programme

:34:04.:34:05.

The goal is for students to understand

:34:06.:34:11.

We want to get our message across that as far as possible,

:34:12.:34:16.

we don't want to criminalise anybody.

:34:17.:34:19.

They engaged with thousands of young people, discouraging travel

:34:20.:34:21.

to Syria, but also discouraging radicalisation

:34:22.:34:25.

It was one of the first cities in the UK where Prevent

:34:26.:34:31.

was being used extensively to discourage radicalisation

:34:32.:34:33.

The Prevent statutory duty prompted a significant step forward

:34:34.:34:39.

in the delivery of Prevent work across all public

:34:40.:34:41.

Now social workers, health care staff and teachers had a duty

:34:42.:34:46.

Hundreds of front line staff in Portsmouth received

:34:47.:34:53.

It prompted criticism that ordinary workers were being asked to spy

:34:54.:35:00.

on people in their care, something repeatedly

:35:01.:35:03.

refuted by those who work with the Prevent strategy.

:35:04.:35:05.

Responsibility for Prevent was transferred from the police

:35:06.:35:07.

The main part of our role is education to keep people safe.

:35:08.:35:13.

We talk about British values, challenging extremism

:35:14.:35:17.

through promoting democracy, freedom of speech.

:35:18.:35:21.

Today if someone raises concerns about someone who may be

:35:22.:35:24.

Portsmouth City Council's Prevent team

:35:25.:35:29.

will carry out intervention work if they believe it is needed.

:35:30.:35:33.

The process is usually kept highly confidential,

:35:34.:35:35.

but Prevent teams are keen to stress that they see their work primarily

:35:36.:35:39.

The long term solution has to be in the counter-extremism strategy

:35:40.:35:45.

where civil societies come together and take on this ideological

:35:46.:35:48.

that we have been challenging homophobia, racism and fascism.

:35:49.:35:54.

That has to be the future and that is something

:35:55.:35:56.

No one else from Portsmouth has since been known

:35:57.:36:01.

to have travelled to Syria, but authorities believe

:36:02.:36:03.

their counter-extremism work must continue.

:36:04.:36:10.

Now, our guest of the day, Sayeeda Warsi,

:36:11.:36:13.

is a long-standing critic of the Prevent programme and has

:36:14.:36:15.

just written a book, The Enemy Within,

:36:16.:36:17.

What is the evidence that Prevent has lost the confidence of the

:36:18.:36:31.

Muslim community? Firstly, I have not been a long-standing critic of

:36:32.:36:34.

the Prevent tragedy. I called a brave, dynamic and cutting edge when

:36:35.:36:38.

it started in 2003 and when it was first published. The concern I have

:36:39.:36:44.

is that over the years, you have to look at the way it is written as a

:36:45.:36:47.

strategy. The iterations of it have changed. What started as a genuine

:36:48.:36:57.

battle of ideas led by the community and prevention of people getting

:36:58.:37:03.

into terrorism has ended up being a policy which has had concerns raised

:37:04.:37:06.

from across the board. People like rights watch, Helena Kennedy,

:37:07.:37:13.

Michael Mansfield, QC, the George Soros foundation, even David

:37:14.:37:16.

Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, has said

:37:17.:37:22.

it is time to independently reviewed Prevent. But it has been reviewed a

:37:23.:37:26.

lot. What is the evidence that it has lost the confidence of the

:37:27.:37:31.

Muslim community? Like I said, there is a platter of reports in which

:37:32.:37:35.

members of the Muslim community have given evidence. I can give you my

:37:36.:37:39.

own evidence of people who are consistently bringing me up, parents

:37:40.:37:41.

and teachers who are concerned about the level of training, the training

:37:42.:37:46.

material, the people who are trained to train others, the number of

:37:47.:37:53.

referrals, the opaqueness of all of this. Those of us who want Prevent

:37:54.:37:57.

to work are saying it is time for an independent review. The fact that

:37:58.:38:00.

the Government is digging its heels in, not prepared to have an

:38:01.:38:03.

independent review, not putting into the public domain so much of what

:38:04.:38:09.

could be contentious material and the opaqueness of the whole

:38:10.:38:12.

strategy, I think is raising deep concerns. The president of the

:38:13.:38:20.

national association of Muslim police said two years ago that

:38:21.:38:23.

Prevent has moved on a lot. There were teething problems, but it is

:38:24.:38:26.

moving in the right direction. Prevent has made a difference. We

:38:27.:38:30.

have made a lot of progress. For every quote from someone who thinks

:38:31.:38:35.

dock there are two sides to this. There are those who want to get rid

:38:36.:38:40.

of Prevent. Others say it is working. The reality is somewhere in

:38:41.:38:44.

the middle. Some bits of it have worked, others haven't. If I took

:38:45.:38:53.

this as a very personal thing, it is up kind of thing where if I had

:38:54.:38:56.

concerns about my children, I should be open to feel I could take them

:38:57.:39:00.

there and it would not impact on them at their lives and we would get

:39:01.:39:03.

genuine support. It is not that kind of place. It is not a space that

:39:04.:39:08.

parents feel they can refer their children, and it should be. But some

:39:09.:39:13.

are suspicious that Prevent is being undermined by a deliberate strategy

:39:14.:39:16.

by reactionary forces in the Muslim community. I agree. There is

:39:17.:39:20.

definitely a lobby out there which wants to do nothing but trash

:39:21.:39:25.

Prevent. But the other side of the argument is that some believe that

:39:26.:39:32.

if Prevent is such a great policy dock the Government has consistently

:39:33.:39:39.

said it is a good policy. But it has openly said it doesn't apply in

:39:40.:39:42.

Northern Ireland. There was a question in Parliament Ma Long ago

:39:43.:39:46.

when a member of pollen said yes, but we were told that Prevent

:39:47.:39:51.

doesn't apply to counterterrorism, it applies to Muslim communities.

:39:52.:39:55.

But they have other programmes in Northern Ireland, as you know,

:39:56.:39:59.

because similar issues have been a problem in Northern Ireland for

:40:00.:40:04.

decades. And Prevent is seen as the golden standard. We are exported to

:40:05.:40:08.

other parts of the world. Because there are these questions, the fact

:40:09.:40:13.

that there is this debate, I am saying, let's have an independent

:40:14.:40:17.

review of this. Let's have somebody like David Anderson, a well

:40:18.:40:21.

respected lawyer, review all of this, somebody with expertise. And

:40:22.:40:24.

let's have everybody who has concerns give evidence and hopefully

:40:25.:40:28.

emerge from this with a stronger programme which a lot of us can

:40:29.:40:32.

support. You write in your book that there is a disproportionate focus on

:40:33.:40:36.

Islamist related terrorism. Why would there not be? Identical said

:40:37.:40:44.

that. Have you read the book? I have just seen a summary. Well, I say in

:40:45.:40:49.

the book that there is a policy at the moment which has a definition of

:40:50.:40:56.

Islamist extremism which in my view and according to many other experts

:40:57.:41:00.

is fundamentally flawed. But we don't have a definition of any other

:41:01.:41:06.

form of extremism or terrorism. And if you look at the figures, you see

:41:07.:41:11.

that these arguments, unfortunately, are far too complex to be dealt with

:41:12.:41:16.

in a 32nd sound bite. It is why I wrote a book about it. But what is

:41:17.:41:22.

not complex is that the overwhelming terror threat to us is Islamist.

:41:23.:41:28.

That is a fact. So that is what we should be focusing on. We should be,

:41:29.:41:33.

but if you look at the definition of Islamist extremism as it stands, we

:41:34.:41:39.

are looking for the tell-tale signs of what makes a terrorist. The

:41:40.:41:45.

tell-tale signs are anything from 15 to about 30. This is borne out by

:41:46.:41:48.

the evidence of people who have studied the lives and profiles of

:41:49.:41:52.

people who have been involved in terrorist attacks. And yet despite

:41:53.:41:57.

these 15 to 30 tell-tale signs, government policy focuses on one.

:41:58.:42:01.

That should worry us all, that we have a counterterrorism strategy

:42:02.:42:08.

which follows a definition which doesn't encompass all the tell-tale

:42:09.:42:12.

signs of what makes a terrorist. Do you think it was wrong for the

:42:13.:42:16.

Government to want people to ascribe to British values? What I say about

:42:17.:42:24.

British values is that it is a list which is reductive. We should be

:42:25.:42:29.

talking about British ideals. What should Britain be in 2017? When we

:42:30.:42:35.

talk about British values, and I unpick this again in the book, we

:42:36.:42:40.

cite the values that we break in policy-making. I give example after

:42:41.:42:46.

example of where we say "These are our values", but in policy-making,

:42:47.:42:52.

we fail to follow those values. We need a much more honest debate about

:42:53.:42:58.

what Britain wants to be in 2017. When we have had that debate and we

:42:59.:43:02.

have a set of British ideals to which we can all sign up, that

:43:03.:43:06.

includes government. If we say we believe in X, we should be doing X.

:43:07.:43:14.

But is there not a continuing problem with the growing isolation

:43:15.:43:18.

of some Muslim communities, parts of our cities, especially in the north,

:43:19.:43:24.

which are now overwhelmingly Muslim and inward to interact purely within

:43:25.:43:28.

themselves and are not integrated with the rest of society? One of the

:43:29.:43:35.

things I explore is the diversity amongst British Muslim Awards. I

:43:36.:43:38.

talk about how from ethnicity to theology to class to profession, to

:43:39.:43:43.

the way in which they live and where they live, as Muslim communities, we

:43:44.:43:48.

are so diverse. One of the things I argue for it to make sure that we

:43:49.:43:52.

talk about Britain's Muslim communities, we don't see them as a

:43:53.:44:04.

monolithic block. That is true. The Muslim community is more diverse

:44:05.:44:07.

than the French community, which is overwhelmingly from north Africa.

:44:08.:44:15.

But there are clearly problems of a lack of integration, and it is

:44:16.:44:19.

getting worse. Some Muslim communities are increasingly

:44:20.:44:25.

isolated from the rest of us. I talk about some Muslim communities which

:44:26.:44:30.

believe in a separatist isolation. We have those amongst all

:44:31.:44:34.

communities. We have a Orthodox Jewish community which lives in a

:44:35.:44:40.

separatist way. But one of the things I go back to in this book is

:44:41.:44:45.

that I have a frank conversation with Britain's Muslim communities. I

:44:46.:44:52.

said to them, we are not terrorists. There are 3 million of us. If we

:44:53.:44:56.

were, we would have killed everybody. But how are we fit for

:44:57.:45:01.

purpose in Britain in 2017? And I challenge them to raise their game

:45:02.:45:08.

to make sure we are part of a bigger community. We should always bear in

:45:09.:45:10.

mind that integration is a middle-class pastime. You and I

:45:11.:45:13.

don't have a problem with integration because we presumably

:45:14.:45:16.

live in nice houses and send our kids to nice schools and probably go

:45:17.:45:20.

to the same nice resorts on holidays. But if you're at the

:45:21.:45:22.

bottom of the pile, it doesn't matter what colour or religion you

:45:23.:45:26.

are, then unfortunately, integration is not the top of your priority

:45:27.:45:32.

list, it is survival. We have to be careful to draw a distinction

:45:33.:45:35.

between those communities that are deliberately choosing to live

:45:36.:45:38.

separate lives, and those that live separate lives because they have no

:45:39.:45:42.

choice. Because of economic circumstances. Your book is called

:45:43.:45:43.

The Enemy Within. Now, despite the best attempts

:45:44.:45:47.

of the Lib Dem leader Tim Farron to focus attention back

:45:48.:45:50.

on to the UK's relationship with the EU, he's had a bruising

:45:51.:45:52.

couple of days which have seen him face scrutiny over his views on gay

:45:53.:45:56.

sex and sack a would-be MP over At PMQs, Theresa May blasted

:45:57.:45:59.

the decision to allow David Ward to stand in his old constituency

:46:00.:46:07.

of Bradford East when asked about it by ex-Bradford

:46:08.:46:15.

councillor Sir Eric Pickles. The Prime Minister has shown

:46:16.:46:17.

considerable leadership in adopting the IHRA

:46:18.:46:20.

definition of anti-Semitism. Does she believe it's

:46:21.:46:23.

the duty of all party leaders within this House,

:46:24.:46:26.

not just to pay lip service to it, And does she share my

:46:27.:46:30.

disgust that a former Affairs Select Committee

:46:31.:46:49.

for his anti-Semitic utterances, is now the official

:46:50.:46:51.

candidate in Bradford East? People will be, I think,

:46:52.:46:53.

rightly, disappointed to see the Liberal Democrats readopt

:46:54.:47:05.

a candidate with a questionable It is important that all parties

:47:06.:47:07.

maintain the strongest possible censure on all forms of intolerance

:47:08.:47:11.

and send that message Just hours after that broadside,

:47:12.:47:13.

Mr Farron reversed the decision to let David Ward stand

:47:14.:47:18.

for the party on June 8th, At one stage he said it was nothing

:47:19.:47:28.

to do with him and he didn't want to interview but a few hours later he

:47:29.:47:32.

described him as "unfit to represent the party."

:47:33.:47:35.

that he was "stunned and somewhat ashamed of my own party".

:47:36.:47:40.

You know, how do you stop the House of Commons raising issues of Israel?

:47:41.:47:46.

Well, what you do is you make sure that supporters of the Palestinians

:47:47.:47:51.

don't get into the House of Commons and ask awkward questions

:47:52.:47:54.

and this is the strategy and it works, doesn't it?

:47:55.:48:03.

To discuss this, we're joined by James Sorene,

:48:04.:48:05.

who used to work for Nick Clegg and is now the CEO of

:48:06.:48:08.

the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre.

:48:09.:48:13.

David Ward said his sacking is designed to stop supporters of

:48:14.:48:19.

Palestinians being elected, is he right nonsense. People in this

:48:20.:48:23.

country have a rigorous debate about foreign policy issues, there are

:48:24.:48:26.

lots of debates about Israel and the Palestinians and how to solve that

:48:27.:48:30.

conflict. It is a smoke screen that is thrown up by people like David

:48:31.:48:33.

Ward it make it seem like he is being silenced. If he wanted to

:48:34.:48:38.

engage in a sensible debate about Israel and the Palestinians would've

:48:39.:48:41.

been welcome to do so but what I did do was engage in a very dark side of

:48:42.:48:46.

that kind of discussion which quickly trips into anti-Semitism. We

:48:47.:48:50.

have mentioned the new definition of anti-Semitism talked about the

:48:51.:48:55.

house, he pretty much ticked every box of the guidance notes of what

:48:56.:48:59.

that definition is. So Mr Farron in your view was right to sack him? I

:49:00.:49:04.

believe he was right. So what, in terms of the definition of

:49:05.:49:09.

anti-Semitism, what is it that Mr Ward has said that was anti-Semitic

:49:10.:49:15.

as opposed to being very strongly, perhaps virulently, anti-Israel? If

:49:16.:49:18.

you look at the tweets he has written and the blogs, also that he

:49:19.:49:23.

has written, he has various themes as caped of dangerous fantasy about

:49:24.:49:28.

Israel no longer existing, or Israel not existing any more. He supported

:49:29.:49:39.

Nsa Shah with a comment of Israelis being transferred to America and he

:49:40.:49:43.

talked about things that is in the definition, that should be avoided.

:49:44.:49:49.

He said if he lived in the Gaza strip he would fire rockets too. For

:49:50.:49:58.

a British parliamentarian, it is stupid to say but is it anti

:49:59.:50:03.

Semitic? I wouldn't think that was particularly anti-Semitic. He talks

:50:04.:50:09.

about the apartheid state of Israel. To call it an apartheid state is a

:50:10.:50:19.

long-standing Meme for anti-Israel but is it anti-itic as oi posed to

:50:20.:50:23.

virulently anti-Israel. That particular comment may or may not

:50:24.:50:27.

be. It depends on the context and what he is doing but if you look at

:50:28.:50:31.

the to tality of his beliefs and what he said there are clear things

:50:32.:50:35.

which are basically anti semitism, they are not having a sensible

:50:36.:50:38.

debate about Israel and the Palestinians. My entire career is

:50:39.:50:42.

based on sensible discussions about Israel and the Palestinians, what he

:50:43.:50:46.

is doing is not that. What Tim Farron right to sack David Ward? He

:50:47.:50:50.

was. I looked at some of the detailed stuff he said and what

:50:51.:50:56.

David does is, he consistently confuses his very clear opposition

:50:57.:51:01.

to the Israeli government... Which... Which I do all the time.

:51:02.:51:06.

The current Israeli administration, I think lots of people within

:51:07.:51:09.

Britain's Jewish communities would have concerns about the current

:51:10.:51:15.

Israeli administration and he confuses that and a couple of

:51:16.:51:19.

comments are about what he feels Jews are doing to Palestinians.

:51:20.:51:23.

Interested you said, that I was looking through so. Things he said,

:51:24.:51:27.

not all by any means a lot of what he said was, it seems to me, you are

:51:28.:51:32.

clearly a real enemy of Israel but that may, that is not always the

:51:33.:51:36.

same as being anti-Semitic but then I saw ones where he said "the Jews",

:51:37.:51:44.

not Israel, he said "The Jews are inflicting atrocities on

:51:45.:51:47.

Palestinians." I authority that may have been the, the use of "Jews." It

:51:48.:51:55.

is an absolutely classic meme as you said of anti-Semite, that they will

:51:56.:51:58.

talk about the Holocaust and talk about Israelis being like Nazis. It

:51:59.:52:02.

is a classic, it is the most offensive thing you could possibly

:52:03.:52:05.

do and you can talk about Israel, you can talk about all sort of

:52:06.:52:09.

Middle East issues, you don't need to use Nazi imagery to make your

:52:10.:52:13.

point and is clearly designed to be offensive, you are back in the Ken

:52:14.:52:18.

Livingstone interview, by defending someone by talking about Hitler. It

:52:19.:52:22.

is transparent and clear. It is like a dog whistle an air raid siren for

:52:23.:52:26.

the followers, they know what is being talked about and they jump in

:52:27.:52:31.

on it. James is right. I talk about these issues all the time. I say -

:52:32.:52:35.

why would you even reach for the Holocaust or Hitler? How can they be

:52:36.:52:39.

answers to what is happening in the Middle East. Interestingly, what

:52:40.:52:48.

was, when Nas Shah said what she did and apologised. She said it was a

:52:49.:52:52.

stupid car too, I shouldn't have put it out. And anyone coming out and

:52:53.:52:57.

supporting a cartoon for which the original MP apologised for was a

:52:58.:53:00.

daft thing to do. You said the British volunteer who is fight for

:53:01.:53:04.

the Israeli Army should be treated as foreign fighters and prosecuted

:53:05.:53:08.

on their return? No, what I have said if you are British and you want

:53:09.:53:12.

it fight, you will fight for an army and fight for Britain only. It is a

:53:13.:53:16.

very clear view I have. And that is whether you are British Pakistani,

:53:17.:53:19.

British Indian, British Israeli, British whatever you may happen to

:53:20.:53:23.

be. I think the law in this area is unclear. Should they be prosecuted,

:53:24.:53:27.

so if you join the US Army or French for legion, if you come back you

:53:28.:53:31.

should be prosecuted? This is the issue, at the moment the law is

:53:32.:53:35.

unclear about who you join and which bit you join and how you are

:53:36.:53:38.

prosecuted to how you come back. I think to clear it all up and to make

:53:39.:53:43.

clear where you stand, if you are British, and you want to fight, you

:53:44.:53:46.

fight for the British Armed Forces and you fight for no-one else. OK,

:53:47.:53:50.

we'll leave it there. We asked David Ward to come on the programme but

:53:51.:53:52.

declined. Parliament is shutting

:53:53.:53:56.

up shop today. MPs and peers will not return

:53:57.:53:57.

to their respective debating chambers until after the general

:53:58.:54:00.

election on June 8th. But it will not be doing

:54:01.:54:02.

so without ceremony. It's called prorogation and BBC

:54:03.:54:04.

Parliament's Daniel Brittain went behind the scenes of the ceremony

:54:05.:54:09.

in 2015 to explain The time of year when Parliament

:54:10.:54:11.

is put into a deep sleep This time, though, there'll

:54:12.:54:22.

be no fairy godmother Instead, with one stroke

:54:23.:54:25.

of her wand, the wicked witch will dissolve them all next week

:54:26.:54:34.

and the MPs will be sent into outer darkness,

:54:35.:54:37.

or the election, as it's called. If you are looking for the heart

:54:38.:54:40.

of the British constitution, then I think it's here

:54:41.:54:43.

because sooner or later you're going to find yourself

:54:44.:54:47.

in this hidden away coridor It leads to the Crown Office

:54:48.:54:49.

and I think they keep it deliberately hidden away and it's

:54:50.:54:55.

here that the final seal is put Within this office,

:54:56.:54:58.

on instructions from the business managers of the House,

:54:59.:55:05.

I will prepare this Royal Commission, it deals firstly

:55:06.:55:16.

with the appointment of the Royal Commissioners

:55:17.:55:18.

and will also give the commissioners or any three of them full power

:55:19.:55:20.

and authority in our name to proroge This document will then go

:55:21.:55:24.

to the Queen, she will sign the document at the top

:55:25.:55:29.

at a Privy Council meeting which It'll then be returned

:55:30.:55:32.

to me and will be dated, sealed with the great seal

:55:33.:55:37.

of the realm. So it is literally signed,

:55:38.:55:39.

sealed and delivered. Paperwork in place,

:55:40.:55:41.

the show can begin. The peers are gathered

:55:42.:55:51.

in the Chamber of the House of Lords and they despatch Black Rod off

:55:52.:55:54.

to the Commons, collect the Commons, they bring them down here,

:55:55.:55:57.

rabble from the Commons, they go into the Chamber

:55:58.:55:59.

of the House of Lords and they meet Part of the ceremony of prorogation

:56:00.:56:02.

is the giving of Royal Assent to those bills that await Royal

:56:03.:56:18.

Assent and the Clerk of the Crown announces the title of each bill

:56:19.:56:21.

and then I look at the Commons and use the words of Royal Assent

:56:22.:56:24.

on behalf of the Queen. And that, of course,

:56:25.:56:27.

is done in Norman French. That is to say - the Queen

:56:28.:56:30.

wishes it and we go There are actually two variations

:56:31.:56:37.

on that formula, one of which I shall be

:56:38.:56:48.

using on this occasion. The longest is for what's called

:56:49.:56:50.

supply bills which are effectively La Reyne remercie ses bons

:56:51.:56:53.

sujets, accepte leur In other words, the Queen

:56:54.:56:57.

thanks her good subjects, accepts their benevolence

:56:58.:57:03.

and thus, wishes it so. Is it any different to ordinary

:57:04.:57:05.

French, Norman French? I'm afraid I know no Norman French

:57:06.:57:11.

other than the words that I thought you all went

:57:12.:57:14.

around chatting in Norman At Her Majesty's command this

:57:15.:57:18.

Royal Variety Performance is due As some would say -

:57:19.:57:24.

La Reyne, le veult. And we're joined now

:57:25.:57:36.

from Central Lobby by our Parliamentary Correspondent,

:57:37.:57:38.

Sean Curran. We were going to conduct this

:57:39.:57:41.

interview in Norman French but have run out of time N this wash-up

:57:42.:57:46.

period, what has got through and what hasn't? . -- in this wash-up

:57:47.:57:55.

period? What has the Government dropped because of time? The

:57:56.:57:59.

northern Bill was rushed through. The Finance Bill, enacting Philip

:58:00.:58:05.

Hammond's Budget and in the last couple of hours, a private member's

:58:06.:58:09.

bill on the registration of Farriers looks like it'll make it on to the

:58:10.:58:15.

statute Bill. The biggest casualty the Prison and Court Bill which will

:58:16.:58:18.

overhaul the prison system in England and Wales. That is shelved

:58:19.:58:20.

for now. Obviously if the Conservatives get back in, that

:58:21.:58:24.

could be resurrected in the Queen's Speech. Parliamentary business lend

:58:25.:58:29.

in a few hours' time. Parliament will be dissolved at one minute past

:58:30.:58:32.

midnight on Wednesday. At that point there are no more MPs, all the

:58:33.:58:37.

people who normally work here are ordinary citizens with no special

:58:38.:58:43.

privileges. They will continue to get paid until polling day. That's

:58:44.:58:44.

good to know. Thank you very much. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:45.:58:48.

over on BBC One now. I will be joined by Michael

:58:49.:58:54.

Portillo, Alan Johnson, Giles Fraser, Helen Lewis,

:58:55.:58:56.

John Nicolson, Sian Berry and Dustin Lance Black

:58:57.:58:58.

on This Week from 11.45.

:58:59.:59:02.

Andrew Neil is joined by former Conservative Party chair and communities minister Sayeeda Warsi. They discuss housing policy, North Korea and Donald Trump's first 100 days in office.


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