23/06/2017 Daily Politics


23/06/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May unveils a "fair and serious" offer to EU citizens

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which would grant a new "settled status" to migrants who've lived

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Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say

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they are considering a range of criminal charges,

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including manslaughter, after cladding and insulation failed

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It's exactly a year since Britain voted to leave the European Union.

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We're joined by leading lights from the Leave and Remain campaigns

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to reflect on that momentous decision and a tumultuous

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Jeremy Corbyn has proven that anti-austerity policies are popular!

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And things can often get spicy when politicians come

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And with me for the duration, two key players from the referendum

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campaign which led to the vote exactly a year ago today.

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Matthew Elliott was chief executive of Vote Leave

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and Lucy Thomas was deputy director of Britain Stronger In Europe.

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She is now head of Brexit advice at a PR firm.

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So let's just rewind one year and remind ourselves of that moment

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during the BBC's coverage when it became clear that Britain had

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Well, at 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken

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in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market has been reversed

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We are absolutely clear now that there is no way

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It looks as though the gap's going to be something like 52-48,

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so a four-point lead for leaving the EU, and that's the result

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of this referendum, which has been preceded by weeks and months

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of argument and dispute and all the rest of it.

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The British people have spoken and the answer is, we're out.

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Matthew Elliott, how did you feel? Elated, very tired as well. It had

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been a long campaign. You are not alone, I think! And how do you feel

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now? Still elated. I think that we haven't seen Project Fear, the

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economy is going well, negotiations have started so we are on track. How

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did you feel? The opposite, very sad, emotional, looking at what was

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happening to the pound, to the market. I find it astonishing that

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Matthew is still elated given that real wages have gone down. We have

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had inflation and prices going up. People are already feeling squeezed.

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For me, actually being involved in the campaign, I was concerned at

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what happened were we to leave and what consequences be, and we still

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don't know where we will end up, we barely know what the UK position is,

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let alone the final outcome, and so unfortunately I am still pretty

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pessimistic, but certainly that night it was a real shock, and let's

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not forget that we thought, and lots of people assumed, that we would

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win. So I think that that shock was real, both our internal polling,

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with Nigel Farage conceding right away, and so it was both a shock and

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a disappointment. Where you shocked to win? I wasn't. Ever since David

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Cameron came back with his deal and Boris Johnson came on the Leave

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side, I thought there was a good chance we would win. I thought --

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was never overly confident though. But events have happened, dear boy,

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to coin a phrase, and a lot has changed. You say you feel the same

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way as you did when the result was announced. What do you make of the

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tumultuous year we have had? It's been incredible and internationally

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as well, the election of President Trump, and in France, the election

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of president macron, so politics seems to be shaken up, and there

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seems to be a big push against the establishment, a big push against

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the status quo. Did you think it would have that sort of impact? Do

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you think some of it stemmed from Brexit? I think it all flowed from

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the antiestablishment feeling, which I think can be traced back to the

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financial crisis. That led to some of the things Lucy talked about in

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terms of lower wages. When we look now, after what has happened, do you

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think that things have changed in people's attitude towards Brexit? I

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think, in terms of whether they regret voting a certain way, first

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of all, it was incredibly divisive, so I think it's unfortunate in what

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it has under politics. I think families and friendships were

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divided. I suppose that is nature of a referendum. It's unfortunate when,

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anecdotally, you hear people saying that they voted to leave but they

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didn't realise that prices would go up, or whether they would have

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strawberries this week, and we have had a dramatic drop in the number of

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people applying to become nurses this country from the EU, something

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like 96% down. You do hear people regretting. But what I think is

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interesting is that only 22% of people want to stop the Brexit

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process, so there is an overwhelming consensus that we do need to get on

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with it, and I entirely agree that the decision has been taken and

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there is no going back. It should be got on with, but I do think, where

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Matthew and I will probably disagree, that's about the terms.

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Where is the mandate for what terms, and what happened in the

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negotiation? Do you think the mandate has changed? Do you accept

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that people are only now realising what they voted for or do you think

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that they know full well what Brexit meant? I think they knew full well.

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There was a poll when 70% of people wanted Brexit to be enacted, and

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there is this term of the re levers, they saw the economy didn't collapse

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and they are quite comfortable. So you think many remain those would

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want to get on with it and that uncertainty is worse than leaving?

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Very much so, they want the government to get on with it and

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they like the fact that both Labour and manifesto that Labour and

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Conservative manifesto is at in them.

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Now, if you're watching the Daily Politics you're

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a political junkie, at least we like to think that's the reason,

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so you'll undoubtedly be across the full range

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But if you caught Question Time last night you'll have seen something

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So our quiz for today is: What happened next?

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Jeremy Corbyn has proven that anti-austerity policies are popular!

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The Tories and the Blairites lost that election.

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We have to find ways in which to continue to put more

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resources into social care in a way...

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He just has to go on for longer if you shout out.

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So you might as well keep quiet and let him hear what he has to say.

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And at the end of the show Matthew and Lucy will give

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Theresa May sat down for dinner with the 27 other EU leaders

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in Brussels last night and she made a quote "fair and serious offer"

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on the rights of EU citizens currently living here in the UK.

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So let's take a look at what she proposed...

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The Prime Minister said that, at the point when Brexit happens,

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many of the EU citizens living here will be able to get

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what she called "settled status" here in the UK.

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That means that they would have the same rights

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and entitlements as UK citizens in terms of healthcare,

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benefits and pensions, according to the government.

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However, EU citizens will only be guaranteed to get "settled status"

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if they've been living in the UK for five years before

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It's thought that the cut-off date could be any time

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between March this year, when the Brexit process began,

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and the end of the negotiations, which are due in March 2019.

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Theresa May also said that the rights of EU citizens

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will be enshrined in UK law and therefore enforced

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by UK courts, not by the European Court of Justice -

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that could be a potential sticking point in the negotiations.

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It's not yet clear whether the offer will apply to the children

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and spouses of EU citizens living here, but we're expecting

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to get more details from the government on Monday.

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The offer made by Theresa May last night is dependent on the EU

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reciprocating with an equivalent offer for UK citizens currently

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living in the EU and it's not yet clear if that will happen.

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Let's talk to a familiar face, our Brussels reporter, Adam Fleming.

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Adam, how has this offer gone down with other EU leaders?

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It's fair to say it's been pretty lukewarm, the response to Theresa

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May's fair and serious offer, as she called it. We have seen quite a feud

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EU figures arriving this morning at a summit not particularly happy with

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this offer. The Austrian Chancellor welcoming the fact it was made, but

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saying there was a lot more work to be done. Jean-Claude Juncker, the

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president of the European Commission, saying that it just

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didn't go far enough. He published Europe minister tweeting that it

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wasn't substantial enough. We have just had a tweet from the MEP who

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will coordinate the European Parliament response to this saying

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that it is just not enough. So a flavour of how this offer is going

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down with people. Actually, officials are waiting to see the

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detail. They are treating this as the starter rather than the main

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course, and they are waiting for Monday, when more details will be

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published in Parliament, and negotiations -- negotiators in

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Brussels will go through it line by line. So far, we haven't had any

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offer of response from the EU in terms of what they may give British

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citizens living in other EU countries. Quite the opposite,

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actually, sorry to correct you. The EU made its offer a couple of weeks

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ago in a big position paper they set out right at the start of their

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negotiating stance, when they were sitting it out, and basically be

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feeling is that they have been pretty generous. They talked about

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things like giving EU nationals who lived in the UK the right to bring

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over a spouse or a child lives elsewhere in the EU after Brexit.

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They talked about people who lived in the UK at any point being able to

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come to the UK and take up their rights and, crucially, they want it

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all to be guaranteed by judges in the European courts of justice. So

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they say they have been very clear, they have made their proposal and

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they are waiting for the detail of the British side. In terms of where

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we go from here, do you think there has been disappointment on the

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British side to the fact that there hasn't been universal support from

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EU leaders? I think Theresa May may come away from this feeling that her

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offer that she thought was there, Sirius, big and generous hasn't been

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welcomed with an alloy and joy from the side. Either that or number ten

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will have been expecting this because this is what happened in a

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negotiation. From my point of view, this isn't really the end of it at

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all, it's just the beginning of the beginning, and there will be a lot

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more toing and froing about these issues, and it will be fascinating

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to see what staff the EU put in their original offer that they are

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willing to come from eyes on so they can move to this point. What staff

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is in Theresa May's offer that she can up the anti on. At this issue

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has to be sorted out right at the start because the EU has said this

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is one of the priority issues, along with the Brexit Bill that have to be

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sorted before negotiations can move the second phase, talking about the

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future of relationships on trade and things like that with the EU and UK

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after Brexit. Joining me now is the Conservative

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MEP Daniel Hannan. Theresa May made it clear last night

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that this offer is conditional on British citizens in the EU getting a

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reciprocal deal. Would it have been better just to have made her offer

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on a unilateral basis and left it with the EU to come back with a

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counter offer? In practice, we have two unilateral offers an citizens

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rights, so it's a technicality. I am glad she has done this. During the

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referendum campaign, I canvassed more than one EU national and I said

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the only change would be that they didn't vote any more in European

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elections. I am pleased that this issue can give reassurance to

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people. There are many EU nationals who have made their lives there and

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who have been in a state of limbo and I hope they will now see there

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is no threat to a change in their status. What you say that, but at

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the moment it is an offer from the British government but, as said, it

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is reliant on what you leaders say and do in response. And many of

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them, Jean-Claude Juncker, being one, said it is not sufficient. Mark

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Ritter has said that their 1000 questions left unanswered. Let's

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hope we don't have to go through them all. But that isn't a

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guarantee. People cannot be reassured that their future lives,

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workplace and residency is guaranteed. In practice, that was

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always guaranteed. The idea that we would start deporting a lot of

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people... That makes it sound quite strong. It's an unthinkable

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condition. This is the final confirmation of something everybody

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connected with new, that we were never going to start taking away the

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accrued rights. I would stress the generosity of what is on the table,

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in the sense that there are three times as many EU nationals here as

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there are Brits in Europe, so rather than treating people as a bargaining

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chip we have decided to guarantee and take that off the table before

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moving on to other issues, which I think is a very open-handed and

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decent gesture. What if it isn't reciprocated? Despite the fact there

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was an offer from the EU, or they set out what they would like, if it

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is not reciprocated and there is a stumbling block over this issue over

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who will guarantee people's rights, the European Court of Justice or

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whether it will be British courts, then what happens? The negotiations

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fall down. I think we stick to this offer, but I think it would be crazy

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to have a bilateral deal overseen by the court of only one side. That is

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saying that the captain of one team is also the referee. Imagine if I

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said that all future deals would ultimately be arbitrated by the

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British Privy Council. That would be ridiculous as it is only one side.

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What we should do is what the EU does in its relations with every

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other country, which is to have an arbitration mechanism including the

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ECJ and representatives of the other side.

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In the Evening Standard editorial George Osborne says that any

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Europeans living here will be able to remain here and use the public

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services they help to pay for, we would not need a complicated

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reciprocal arrangement with Europe or provide a role for the European

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Court of Justice, I think we should just do it. I think that is what

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will happen. Why is it being labelled as a conditional offer? We

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will see when the details are published next week but effectively

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we have an offer from the EU and the UK. If you want to call that two

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unilateral offers rather than a reciprocal one fine. I never thought

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of as any chance of us not doing this but it is nice to have it in

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black-and-white. You have said that repeatedly on the programme. Is it

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wise to make two unilateral offers? Should Theresa May not wait to see

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what is going to beat Alan T by other EU leaders because we are

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talking about beds abroad as well? The EU has made it clear there will

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not move on to talking about things like free-trade deal until this

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issue is sorted out so she was right to deal with that shot away. Are you

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reassured? On the face of it it seems what many EU citizens wanted.

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There are questions but broadly speaking do you welcome this? Yes. I

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understand why you would use it as part of the negotiation process. The

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fact the EU put it off and on the table several weeks ago which was

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very detailed and quite demanding in terms of what it was calling for,

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this ECJ point is going to be a sticking point because the EU is

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saying we do not trust you on a case-by-case basis to make these

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decisions fairly, so the point about how you arbitrate, who is it both

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sides will agree to? The EU will be kept cool than over the ECJ and

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other issues. It is a critical point because we are talking about

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people's rates than they have to be guaranteed by someone. If that is a

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sticking point what happens? If it is a year's time and there is no

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agreement, who is going to oversee people's rates here and abroad? We

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will oversee it. You are right to say this could be a sticking point

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in other parts of the talks. If the EU really does... One possibility is

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the putting it on the table to take it off later but if it is going to

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try to stick to this principle that it gets to be the referee as one of

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the two sides are dizzying does not want a deal and that would be sad.

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What you propose? Some sort of joint arbitration? Yes. ECJ judges get to

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decide if that is fear or not. Whether it is the EU Canada trade

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deal or the deal between the EU and others, there is an arbitration

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mechanism that takes account of the two sides and it would be

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extraordinary if the European Union were to say in the case of Britain

:19:33.:19:36.

uniquely, unlike in every other day or we have done, we are going to be

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judge and jury. It is insulting to say we do not have a functioning

:19:42.:19:47.

legal process in this country. I hope the 27 governments, who are

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much more pragmatic than some of these loud voices and the

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commission, would say not to throw the deal out. The 27 do not all

:19:55.:20:02.

agree. Angela Merkel welcome the offer from Theresa May but other

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leaders want more in terms of the rights of spouses, and children.

:20:08.:20:14.

None of that has been spelt out. We have not seen the detail. Could this

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be a case where the 27 start to disagree over whether this offer

:20:20.:20:25.

should be accepted? It's genuinely is a fair and generous offer. What

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it is offering in terms of spouses and children, EU nationals would

:20:31.:20:33.

have the chance to have exactly the same rights as British nationals

:20:34.:20:38.

except for voting. It is difficult to see anybody seeing that is not

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enough. That is as much as you can realistically... People living here

:20:44.:20:48.

for five years before this unknown cut-off date will get settled status

:20:49.:20:52.

and other Biba will be given the opportunity to continue living here

:20:53.:20:57.

and get the status after five years. What will happen to their rights in

:20:58.:21:02.

the interim? I assume it will carry on as now. We will have to see the

:21:03.:21:10.

White Paper. If any EU nationals want to make a long-term commitment

:21:11.:21:14.

to this country they are very welcome to apply for UK nationality.

:21:15.:21:19.

We love to have people who want to make a success of their British

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identity. Do you think that would be an enticement for people and also a

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guarantee that they would have enough time to build up settled

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status or apply for British citizenship? Some people will be on

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the downside of the argument of the referendum campaign who would not be

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happy with that. It comes down to people voted for. People thought

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they were reducing, some people thought they were reducing the

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number of migrants. We saw the number of hate crimes going up. Be

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clear, there was a spike... There was not. They said there was a

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spike. I am going to let you come back on it. It was related, it came

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after the EU referendum, they do not know if it was a direct result or if

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those people would have committed those crimes, but there was a spike

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and it came down. There is a website where people are invited to logon

:22:21.:22:25.

and advertise they have been victims hate crimes. There were an extra 31

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complaints and 96 hour period. None of which led to an increase in

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prosecutions and several of which were complaining about Nigel Farage.

:22:36.:22:41.

It was people letting off steam. The police press release said it should

:22:42.:22:46.

not be read as an increase. People are making this ludicrous claim

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there was a sudden rise in the heat crimes which bears no relation...

:22:52.:22:58.

There were more complaints but we broke down those statistics at the

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time... 31 people... We will have to look at that again. You accept

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claims like that are in century? There is increased animosity towards

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EU migrants. I know lots of people anecdotal Lee who have been told to

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go home. People walking down the road or on the tube being told, I

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voted so you would go home. It may not happen everywhere but it

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happens. There were three events held up as proof of as being an in

:23:33.:23:39.

tolerant country. He is a positive attack tapas bar and the famous

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anti-polish graffiti. The tapas bar was a burglary. This opposed

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anti-Polish graffiti was by a Pole. Even if they were not actually

:23:59.:24:02.

recorded as real crimes are you seeing you should dismiss the

:24:03.:24:06.

feelings of people? It goes without saying that any acts of intolerance

:24:07.:24:10.

or verbal violence or abuse are reprehensible. I hope we do not have

:24:11.:24:16.

to say that. It is not the case there has been any demonstrable

:24:17.:24:19.

increase of these attacks as a result of the referendum. We remain

:24:20.:24:23.

one of the countries in Europe with the most positive view of

:24:24.:24:28.

immigration, the most positive view of difference, of multiracial

:24:29.:24:32.

marriages. It is ludicrous to be beating ourselves up like this when

:24:33.:24:36.

there are countries that have genuine problems. Or people might

:24:37.:24:39.

see it is important to be realistic about some of the reactions after

:24:40.:24:44.

the referendum. In terms of the reactions of EU leaders to this

:24:45.:24:49.

offer, were you disappointed? Do you think it does not bode well in terms

:24:50.:24:53.

of the other areas of negotiation and getting a deal? How absurd it

:24:54.:24:58.

would have been if Theresa May had come out and said all British

:24:59.:25:03.

citizens living elsewhere in the EU should be adjudicated by British

:25:04.:25:06.

courts. If she had said that people would have said how rubbish it was.

:25:07.:25:15.

Why are people allowing the EU to have a say on this? Are you worried

:25:16.:25:20.

about the future of the negotiations of already EU leaders are making in

:25:21.:25:26.

your mind unreasonable objections? Doesn't bode ill for the

:25:27.:25:31.

negotiations ahead? I am not worried. The start of the talks this

:25:32.:25:35.

week, I was impressed with the dawn from both sides, it seemed to be

:25:36.:25:37.

constructive and win-win. Some breaking news just as we came

:25:38.:25:42.

on air, and a man has been charged with terrorism-related murder

:25:43.:25:46.

and attempted murder after the incident in Finsbury Park

:25:47.:25:47.

in London where a van was driven Darren Osborne, 47, from Cardiff,

:25:48.:25:50.

was arrested in the early hours of Monday morning,

:25:51.:25:54.

after the incident in which one person was killed and nine

:25:55.:25:56.

others taken to hospital, and today the Crown Prosecution

:25:57.:25:58.

Service have authorised charges. The Metropolitan Police have said

:25:59.:26:07.

they will consider manslaughter charges over the fire

:26:08.:26:09.

at the Grenfell Tower The police have confirmed

:26:10.:26:11.

that the fire was caused by a faulty fridge freezer and also say

:26:12.:26:15.

that the cladding on the outside of the building failed

:26:16.:26:17.

fire safety tests. 79 people are missing or presumed

:26:18.:26:21.

dead after the blaze destroyed 150 Let's have a listen to what one

:26:22.:26:24.

of the lead detectives had We are looking at every criminal

:26:25.:26:29.

offence, from manslaughter onwards. We are looking at every health

:26:30.:26:38.

and safety and fire safety offence, and we are reviewing every

:26:39.:26:43.

investigation, every company at the moment involved

:26:44.:26:48.

in the building and refurbishment Let's get the latest

:26:49.:26:50.

from our reporter Sarah Smith, We just heard from the lead

:26:51.:27:05.

detective. One of the things raised by people affected if they feel they

:27:06.:27:08.

have not had the true numbers of those affected or killed. Very

:27:09.:27:14.

difficult at this particular stage. Will they be reassured by what we

:27:15.:27:20.

have heard? We heard those numbers again today, 79 known to be dead or

:27:21.:27:27.

missing presumed dead, nine formal identifications. She was asked

:27:28.:27:29.

specifically about the fact people are worried there are many more. She

:27:30.:27:34.

did not shy away from the fact she feared there would be more but they

:27:35.:27:41.

have to be extremely careful and cannot go bandying figures around

:27:42.:27:43.

just because there is pressure on them to admit there are more. They

:27:44.:27:47.

have not hidden away from the fact. One of the things they were

:27:48.:27:51.

concerned about was they would be these hidden victims. She said the

:27:52.:27:56.

terrible reality is we may never find on identified all of those who

:27:57.:27:59.

died in the fire. One of the concerns is that there are people

:28:00.:28:03.

who would not naturally get in touch with the abilities, perhaps worried

:28:04.:28:10.

about immigration status or subletting or concerned they may be

:28:11.:28:13.

on the wrong side of the law, whom may not come forward, but she said

:28:14.:28:17.

they have to come forward if they know anybody who was living in those

:28:18.:28:21.

blocks or visiting, they have to come forward so they can get some

:28:22.:28:27.

sort of realistic figures. And going through a recovering what is left in

:28:28.:28:30.

the tower block they said that could take until at least the end of this

:28:31.:28:35.

year. What about the range of charges the police are considering?

:28:36.:28:39.

They have said they are looking at the full range of charges, health

:28:40.:28:42.

and safety violations up to manslaughter. It takes a much larger

:28:43.:28:54.

burden of Polly on my crew. They have seized documents from several

:28:55.:28:59.

premises although it will not be specific about what premises there

:29:00.:29:03.

are at the moment but we know their investigation continues with them

:29:04.:29:07.

looking at all of these details. Looking at how the fire started. And

:29:08.:29:13.

how it spread so quickly. It started because of this thread. It spread,

:29:14.:29:18.

the fear from last week has been is it because of the cladding and

:29:19.:29:21.

installation and they have carried out tests and said already in the

:29:22.:29:28.

tests they have carried out the cladding and insulation failed all

:29:29.:29:29.

of them. Communities and Local Government

:29:30.:29:33.

Secretary Sajid Javid has written to MPs to update them

:29:34.:29:35.

on the Government's response In the letter, he confirmed that 600

:29:36.:29:37.

buildings had cladding that was being tested,

:29:38.:29:41.

and so far 11 high-rise buildings in eight local authority areas had

:29:42.:29:44.

been found to have failed those safety tests, including

:29:45.:29:47.

buildings in Camden, This is what he had to say

:29:48.:29:48.

in the Commons yesterday afternoon. I think it's clear that any changes

:29:49.:29:54.

in the wake of this tragedy shouldn't just be technical

:29:55.:29:58.

or to legislation. What happened at Grenfell Tower also

:29:59.:30:02.

showed us all that we need We all need to rethink our approach

:30:03.:30:08.

to social housing, and we need to reflect on the way that

:30:09.:30:16.

successive governments have engaged with and responded

:30:17.:30:19.

to social tenants. We don't yet know for sure

:30:20.:30:23.

whether this disaster could have been avoided if the people

:30:24.:30:26.

who called Grenfell Tower their home had been listened to,

:30:27.:30:31.

but we do know that, for far too long, their voices

:30:32.:30:35.

fell on deaf ears. So, if nothing else,

:30:36.:30:38.

let the legacy of Grenfell be that such voices will never,

:30:39.:30:41.

ever be ignored again. To discuss this further,

:30:42.:30:47.

I'm joined by Russell Curtis, an architect who works for local

:30:48.:30:49.

authorities, and from Hammersmith I'm joined

:30:50.:30:51.

by the local Labour MP and Shadow Housing Minister,

:30:52.:30:54.

Andy Slaughter. Welcome to both of you. Andy

:30:55.:31:07.

Slaughter, what do you think now of the government's reaction and

:31:08.:31:10.

response, listening to Sajid Javid, I have a letter to MPs and it is

:31:11.:31:15.

comprehensive. Do you feel reassured that all action will be taken to

:31:16.:31:17.

prevent another Grenfell Tower happening? The challenges for the

:31:18.:31:24.

government keep growing, and I don't know whether they are up to them.

:31:25.:31:28.

They were very slow in spotting that disaster relief was not happening.

:31:29.:31:32.

That took a week longer than it should have done. We now have the

:31:33.:31:37.

issue of cladding, and there were confused messages on that yesterday,

:31:38.:31:40.

and just this morning, and this particularly concerns me, there is a

:31:41.:31:45.

serious issue in a separate dashboard in a separate tower in

:31:46.:31:50.

Shepherd's Bush last year and we learned it is down to goods

:31:51.:31:53.

manufactured by a company, and a year on from that, we have still not

:31:54.:31:57.

had a product recall of the tumble dryers which caused that, and 5.5

:31:58.:32:04.

million were manufactured. These are serious challenges the government

:32:05.:32:07.

has known about and I have seen little sign that they are taking it

:32:08.:32:12.

as seriously as they should. Let's look at the cladding issue, which

:32:13.:32:15.

has been talked about a lot, that could have contributed to the fire

:32:16.:32:21.

spreading and the excellent. Police say that the Grenfell cladding

:32:22.:32:24.

failed safety tests. Does that imply that there was not a safety test

:32:25.:32:29.

done before that cladding was put on? There is a lot of confusion

:32:30.:32:36.

around what these safety tests involved. The building regulations

:32:37.:32:41.

are I think it's fairly clear, they are out of date, but that the

:32:42.:32:45.

benchmark that we use as architects and industry professionals, to

:32:46.:32:50.

assess the performance of a building against, and that covers all sorts

:32:51.:32:54.

of things, fire, though more performance, all sorts of things.

:32:55.:33:00.

But I think there is a lack of clarity in building regulations as

:33:01.:33:07.

they stand over performance in particular circumstances. Would you

:33:08.:33:10.

agree with Camden council, who have taken the action of removing

:33:11.:33:14.

cladding panels from buildings they think are combustible from buildings

:33:15.:33:20.

in their area? I think it's probably a sensible precaution. I don't think

:33:21.:33:25.

that tall buildings are inherently unsafe and I'm not necessarily sure

:33:26.:33:28.

that I agree with the previous comment about... Obviously, that is

:33:29.:33:37.

an issue to look into, but there five in tall buildings frequently.

:33:38.:33:40.

It isn't rare. The issue how quickly it spreads. If it is a concrete

:33:41.:33:46.

faced or brick faced building, you simply don't see the spread of a

:33:47.:33:50.

fire from one dwelling to another. It just doesn't happen because of

:33:51.:33:55.

the way the buildings are designed. As soon as you wrap an existing

:33:56.:34:01.

building in a new skin, effectively, which these buildings were not

:34:02.:34:05.

intended to receive when they were originally designed in the 60s and

:34:06.:34:10.

70s, that becomes a problem. To pick up on your earlier point about the

:34:11.:34:14.

fridge freezer, Andy Slaughter, an investigation is being made into

:34:15.:34:18.

that particular model, the business department is looking into that. To

:34:19.:34:23.

come back, if we have still got Andy Slaughter... No, it looks as if we

:34:24.:34:27.

might have lost him. Staying with you, of course, there are lots of

:34:28.:34:32.

factors that can be contributory, but it does shine a spotlight on

:34:33.:34:37.

fire safety precautions. Putting the cladding to one side, what about

:34:38.:34:40.

sprinklers and fire extinguishers and alarms? If there are buildings

:34:41.:34:45.

without these precautions, are they at risk? One of the problems is that

:34:46.:34:51.

the reconfiguration of an existing building. Goldings from the 60s and

:34:52.:34:58.

70s, tower blocks like this, are inherently safe. -- buildings from

:34:59.:35:03.

the 60s and 70s. I think there is a question over if you take a building

:35:04.:35:08.

like that and you wrap it in a new cladding to improve thermal and

:35:09.:35:11.

acoustic performance and all that sort of thing. The problem is, are

:35:12.:35:15.

you fundamentally changing the design of that building and, if you

:35:16.:35:18.

do that, should you be required to install sprinklers and updated fire

:35:19.:35:23.

alarm systems and all of that sort of thing? At the moment, building

:35:24.:35:29.

regulations don't necessarily make that explicit. Andy Slaughter, I

:35:30.:35:33.

think we have you back. The number of buildings that are being looked

:35:34.:35:36.

at across the country, we could be talking about thousands of people in

:35:37.:35:42.

tower blocks across the UK. Would you be suggesting that they all be

:35:43.:35:46.

evacuated and rehoused whilst tests are carried out on the cladding?

:35:47.:35:51.

Look, let's get this into perspective. There is nothing

:35:52.:35:56.

inherently unsafe about either white goods or tower blocks but, if I

:35:57.:36:00.

lived in a tower block which had cladding that was thought to be

:36:01.:36:04.

dangerous, or I had a model of fridge or tumble dryer which had

:36:05.:36:07.

been found to cause fires, I would not feel comfortable, so we have it

:36:08.:36:14.

more seriously. This is a national emergency and disaster. The

:36:15.:36:17.

particular model of tumble dryer that has caused many fires,

:36:18.:36:21.

including the very serious tower block fire last year, the advice

:36:22.:36:25.

until a couple of months ago was that he would continue to use those.

:36:26.:36:29.

The government has a huge amount to answer for. There has been

:36:30.:36:33.

complacency. This will continue to be raised on a daily basis in

:36:34.:36:37.

Parliament until we get some action. In terms of the action, do you think

:36:38.:36:42.

people should be rehoused if they are found, some of the cladding on

:36:43.:36:47.

buildings, to have a combustible element? You can understand that

:36:48.:36:50.

people will not feel safe to sleep at night following what happened at

:36:51.:36:53.

Grenfell Tower, but are you saying that they should be re-homed across

:36:54.:37:01.

the country? I commend the action that councils like Camden, and I

:37:02.:37:05.

think and others are taking, which is not waiting but going ahead and

:37:06.:37:08.

making those buildings safe. You can't rely on this postcode lottery

:37:09.:37:13.

where individual councils, depending on their means and inclination, do

:37:14.:37:18.

this. For every single tower block that we have, government is to

:37:19.:37:21.

identify whether there is a risk and, if there is, that has to be

:37:22.:37:27.

made safe, or we will have other events like Grenfell. Do you think

:37:28.:37:30.

this is the point at which people should be moved out of their homes

:37:31.:37:33.

because they are worried about what might happen, and because they don't

:37:34.:37:39.

know the veracity of goods that might be in their tower blocks? I

:37:40.:37:42.

don't. I think they're obviously needs to be a rigorous regime of

:37:43.:37:46.

testing. Fires are very constipated things. There has been a lot of talk

:37:47.:37:55.

about the cladding. -- very complicated things. That is only one

:37:56.:37:58.

part of a larger assembly of components. I don't think that it is

:37:59.:38:02.

healthy to focus on a particular product when it may be that they're

:38:03.:38:08.

different configurations of that which might be particularly safe. I

:38:09.:38:13.

think we need to take a rational assessment of it without panicking

:38:14.:38:19.

and evacuating blocks. And we are also looking at private blocks which

:38:20.:38:23.

may have some sort of cladding around their building and they may

:38:24.:38:26.

be high-rise in some of it may be combustible. We don't know whether

:38:27.:38:30.

or not that material was found that white. If we are talking about the

:38:31.:38:36.

voices of residence in tower blocks, Andy Slaughter, we heard Sajid Javid

:38:37.:38:40.

saying they will never be ignored. But residents were presented on

:38:41.:38:44.

bodies and committees that were in charge of looking after buildings

:38:45.:38:51.

like Grenfell Tower, weren't they? Social housing as a type of tenure

:38:52.:38:57.

and social tenants have been sidelined, and this is a political

:38:58.:39:01.

issue, because I have experienced this over 30 years in trying to

:39:02.:39:05.

champion the rights of council and housing association tenants, and

:39:06.:39:09.

they have been downgraded. We have not only had no building, we have

:39:10.:39:12.

had estates demolished and sold off. If this is a sea change in

:39:13.:39:16.

Conservative policy towards social tenants and they are now prepared to

:39:17.:39:19.

build council and housing association houses to relieve the

:39:20.:39:24.

appalling conditions in overcrowded areas, I welcome it. But I will

:39:25.:39:28.

believe it when I see it because, for 30 years, there has been studied

:39:29.:39:31.

neglect by Conservative governments and councils. Lucy Thomas, what

:39:32.:39:37.

would you like to see happen? First of all, people have to be listened

:39:38.:39:42.

to. If you take a step back and look at the number of people who have

:39:43.:39:45.

been saying for a long time, we are not happy, do not have sprinklers

:39:46.:39:49.

and fire extinguishers, do not spend a bit more money on a slightly more

:39:50.:39:53.

expensive cladding and so on, that feels like a number of decisions

:39:54.:39:56.

were taken either to ignore people, to put people to the back of the

:39:57.:40:00.

queue, oh, they are complaining a bit too much, let's not listen to

:40:01.:40:05.

them, so both in terms of retrospective decisions, but also

:40:06.:40:08.

now in terms of the government response, our people feeling like

:40:09.:40:10.

they are being looked after properly? Why wasn't the Army sent

:40:11.:40:14.

down straightaway getting things sorted out, people being given

:40:15.:40:18.

provisions and so on? It feels like it been pretty chaotic. Andy, I

:40:19.:40:24.

think some of those in Labour have been very quick to point fingers

:40:25.:40:27.

about what this government has done, but actually there are previous

:40:28.:40:31.

reports and lessons that could have been learned pre-2010 from Labour

:40:32.:40:36.

governments. There are lots and lots of questions to be answered. Do you

:40:37.:40:40.

agree that social housing and the tenants that live in them have been

:40:41.:40:45.

sidelined over decades? I want to see the full force of the law used

:40:46.:40:49.

against contractors and officials if they are found to be negligent. I

:40:50.:40:54.

think too often people get let off. This is one of those issues where

:40:55.:41:00.

the public want the government to actually really use the full force

:41:01.:41:03.

of the law to make sure that people are held accountable. In terms of

:41:04.:41:07.

the guidelines you would come under as an architect doing government

:41:08.:41:11.

contracts, in your experience, do they have less oversight? Is less

:41:12.:41:18.

money spent? Are they less safe, broadly speaking, in the way that

:41:19.:41:24.

Andy Slaughter has outlined? I actually think that is very true. We

:41:25.:41:28.

have seen a move towards forms of procurement in recent years where I

:41:29.:41:32.

think people would be surprised how little involvement architects and

:41:33.:41:35.

other professionals have once a project start on site. This is a

:41:36.:41:40.

product of the way in which we procure public buildings these days,

:41:41.:41:42.

and I think it sidelines construction professionals and

:41:43.:41:46.

communities. I think that is a real shame, this top-down approach to

:41:47.:41:52.

estate regeneration and refurbishment. It's a tragedy.

:41:53.:41:55.

Actually we should be engaging with residence from the outset, with

:41:56.:42:01.

construction professionals like architects and others, to establish

:42:02.:42:06.

what is needed and to make sure that the ambitions for each project carry

:42:07.:42:07.

on through until it is finished. Now, it's a year since the Britain

:42:08.:42:10.

voted to leave the EU. And what a difference

:42:11.:42:13.

a year makes, or does it? Our two guests of the day,

:42:14.:42:15.

Matthew Elliott from Vote Leave and Lucy Thomas from

:42:16.:42:18.

Britain Stronger in Europe, have made two films giving

:42:19.:42:20.

us their take on the 12 months Let's take a look,

:42:21.:42:23.

starting with Matthew. A vote to leave will push our

:42:24.:42:25.

economy into a recession. The most significant

:42:26.:42:29.

event of the past year Forget Gina Miller's court case

:42:30.:42:32.

or the passage of Article 50. Frankly, you can even forget

:42:33.:42:41.

the general election. What's most significant is the fact

:42:42.:42:44.

that the economy didn't go downhill, which is why 70% of voters

:42:45.:42:49.

still want Brexit to go ahead. This is why I'm confident that

:42:50.:42:53.

Brexit will go ahead as planned. Gerard Lyons was Boris Johnson's

:42:54.:42:59.

chief economist when he Brexit is in the long-term best

:43:00.:43:01.

interests of the economy. Project Fear was driven more

:43:02.:43:07.

by politics than economic analysis. Hence we didn't have the financial

:43:08.:43:11.

armageddon or economic collapse that In fact, the economy has held up

:43:12.:43:14.

very well over the last year and the underlying picture,

:43:15.:43:20.

despite the current It's true to say that the election

:43:21.:43:22.

increased uncertainty. But, now the Brexit negotiations

:43:23.:43:26.

are under way, people will quickly see that a win-win deal

:43:27.:43:30.

is on the table and that the Government is committed to a full,

:43:31.:43:33.

clean and open Brexit, which will be good for

:43:34.:43:37.

the economy and for jobs. The Legatum Institute,

:43:38.:43:42.

where I now work, set up a special trade commission

:43:43.:43:45.

after the referendum. There are real opportunities

:43:46.:43:48.

for Britain as we go We can become a global

:43:49.:43:53.

trading partner. We can drive job creation and we can

:43:54.:44:00.

build a strong economy. But we can actually only do this

:44:01.:44:04.

if we leave the single market and customs union and take hold

:44:05.:44:09.

of that global trading role. Some people, who want

:44:10.:44:18.

Britain to stay in the EU, have used the recent election

:44:19.:44:20.

to suggest we should stay in the single market,

:44:21.:44:23.

but they conveniently forget that they told voters

:44:24.:44:26.

in the referendum campaign that a vote to leave was a vote to leave

:44:27.:44:29.

the single market. Personally, I agree

:44:30.:44:34.

with Lucy Thomas, who is a leading light of the Remain campaign,

:44:35.:44:37.

who talked during the referendum about the downsides of staying part

:44:38.:44:40.

of the single market, like Norway. If we were to follow

:44:41.:44:45.

the Norwegian EEA model, that wouldn't have a mandate and it

:44:46.:44:48.

wouldn't achieve the things the Leave campaign say

:44:49.:44:50.

they want to achieve, so we wouldn't be able to stop free

:44:51.:44:53.

movement of people - Norway accepts that -

:44:54.:44:56.

we'd still have to accept most EU rules with no say over them

:44:57.:44:59.

at all and we'd still have to pay into the EU budget, so it's far

:45:00.:45:03.

worse than the deal we have now. Both the Labour and Conservative

:45:04.:45:09.

manifestos committed their MPs to a full Brexit of leaving

:45:10.:45:11.

the single market and leaving the customs union, so it has

:45:12.:45:15.

the overwhelming support So now it's up to the

:45:16.:45:18.

Government to deliver. What excites me is that Brexit

:45:19.:45:25.

is about more than treaties. It's about the kind of country

:45:26.:45:28.

we want to live in. The general election

:45:29.:45:32.

was certainly a bump in the road, So that was Matthew's

:45:33.:45:36.

take, and now for Lucy. A year ago today, I was with other

:45:37.:45:52.

Remain campaigners in a room just up there when we found out Britain had

:45:53.:45:56.

voted to leave the EU. We always knew it would be close

:45:57.:46:01.

but our campaign data showed us So, a year on from that

:46:02.:46:04.

vote, where are we? Brexit talks have begun

:46:05.:46:16.

and the clock is ticking. But the UK's position and the final

:46:17.:46:18.

outcome are far from clear. Although people voted to leave

:46:19.:46:23.

there was never a detailed plan And people voted Leave

:46:24.:46:26.

for many different reasons. In fact, during the referendum,

:46:27.:46:35.

leave campaigners revelled in the fact that they

:46:36.:46:37.

didn't have a blueprint. One senior Brexit campaigner told me

:46:38.:46:46.

all he had to do was get people enthused about voting to leave,

:46:47.:46:49.

about Britain's brighter The finer details of what that

:46:50.:46:51.

actually looks like, that is down to the politicians

:46:52.:46:54.

to sort out. In that hastily convened government

:46:55.:46:56.

after the referendum the new Prime Minister

:46:57.:46:58.

and her colleagues decided amongst themselves what

:46:59.:47:00.

Brexit would look like. Earlier this year Theresa May

:47:01.:47:02.

spelt out their plan. We would be leaving both the single

:47:03.:47:06.

market and the customs union. So where does that

:47:07.:47:10.

leave plans for Brexit? Well, now the parliamentary

:47:11.:47:20.

arithmetic matters. The government may need

:47:21.:47:22.

to change its approach to guarantee Even some of the Conservatives'

:47:23.:47:26.

own backbenchers are saying the general election changed

:47:27.:47:29.

everything. The inconclusive result

:47:30.:47:32.

from the general election actually was an instruction from the British

:47:33.:47:34.

people to say, you know Actually, you've got

:47:35.:47:36.

to sort this out. And that means that actually that's

:47:37.:47:41.

down to backbench members of Parliament to be asking questions

:47:42.:47:43.

of the government, to be listening to our constituents all the way

:47:44.:47:46.

through this process. Leaving the EU was about

:47:47.:47:50.

Parliamentary sovereignty. Taking back control means taking

:47:51.:47:52.

back control into Parliament. So actually backbench MPs have

:47:53.:47:57.

to step up to the plate and make sure we get the most effective most

:47:58.:48:00.

sensible Brexit There is also the question

:48:01.:48:02.

of how to avoid a Brexit Many in the business community

:48:03.:48:07.

feel their voices have not been heard over the past year

:48:08.:48:12.

and there is real pressure We have settled down

:48:13.:48:14.

from the relative shock of the referendum result but one

:48:15.:48:18.

could argue another shock in terms That gives business an opportunity,

:48:19.:48:22.

an emboldened opportunity, to perhaps realign the debate

:48:23.:48:30.

on Brexit and by that I mean I think just working with government,

:48:31.:48:34.

encouraging government, pushing it if necessary,

:48:35.:48:37.

to move away from what I think we would call a harder ideological

:48:38.:48:40.

line to a smoother Brexit. So, a year on from the referendum

:48:41.:48:45.

and we have started walking towards the exit door,

:48:46.:48:48.

but the terms are Lizzie and Matthew, thank you. Do

:48:49.:49:06.

you think that is true, the terms are all to play for? I do not think

:49:07.:49:12.

they are. The conservative and Labour manifestos made it clear

:49:13.:49:18.

there was to be clean and Phil Brexit and those who wanted to fudge

:49:19.:49:22.

things and stay in the single market saw their vote share fall. It'll 5%

:49:23.:49:30.

of voters voted for the two parties who support Brexit, leaving the

:49:31.:49:34.

single market than the customs union. No. I have the Labour

:49:35.:49:38.

manifesto here. Nowhere does it say we will leave the single market. It

:49:39.:49:44.

says we will scrap the Conservatives' White Paper and

:49:45.:49:47.

emphasise retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs

:49:48.:49:54.

union. That is trying to retain as free as possible access. The

:49:55.:49:56.

Conservatives want exactly the same benefits. You are saying 85% wanted

:49:57.:50:04.

to leave the single market, that is not actually reading... It is

:50:05.:50:09.

important to see what people voted for. What about that? If Lucy is

:50:10.:50:18.

disputing the fact that the 85% of people who voted for Labour and

:50:19.:50:22.

Conservatives were not looking to leave the single market and the

:50:23.:50:26.

customs union? Elsewhere it says we will end freedom of movement. You

:50:27.:50:31.

cannot be a member of the single market and not accept freedom of

:50:32.:50:35.

movement so it is quite clear. John McDonnell the shadow, -- and flower

:50:36.:50:42.

has also been clear. They said they would leave the single market.

:50:43.:50:47.

Several people have said it could include staying in the single

:50:48.:50:51.

market. The Labour position is a movable feast and they want to

:50:52.:50:57.

detain as free as possible trade with the EU and it is on a spectrum.

:50:58.:51:03.

My problem with the conservative position as they have a load of red

:51:04.:51:09.

lines, for example must end eg see jurisdiction, which gives you all

:51:10.:51:12.

sorts of things around the European Arrest Warrant. They have said we

:51:13.:51:17.

will leave the customs union and the single market. Then you look at

:51:18.:51:20.

things like Northern Ireland and think what should we do? On the

:51:21.:51:27.

front benches you have quoted, Barry Gardner on this programme the Labour

:51:28.:51:31.

frontbencher said if there were to be a reformed membership of the

:51:32.:51:35.

single market, he did not think that would happen, but if they were to

:51:36.:51:38.

change the rules completely then they might consider it. To be clear

:51:39.:51:43.

it says on the Labour manifesto that they will be leaving the single

:51:44.:51:46.

market and they will end freedom of movement. It does not say leave the

:51:47.:51:54.

single market. By ending freedom of movement you have to leave the

:51:55.:51:58.

single market. Pierced armour is beginning to talk about perhaps

:51:59.:52:03.

there is an arrangement of talking within the customs union, isn't that

:52:04.:52:10.

sensible? At the same time he talks about having free trade of the the

:52:11.:52:16.

EU. You cannot set up these new free trade deals if you are part of the

:52:17.:52:23.

customs union. As King for a mandate on Brexit as they went into the

:52:24.:52:27.

general election they lost their majority. They have lost that

:52:28.:52:32.

mandate, haven't they? The election in some ways was not about Brexit,

:52:33.:52:38.

it was about other issues like public services and so-called

:52:39.:52:43.

austerity, it was not really a Brexit election. That is how it was

:52:44.:52:48.

built and that is how Theresa May wanted it to be viewed. Have they

:52:49.:52:54.

not lost the mandate for the Brexit she outlined? I do not think so.

:52:55.:52:59.

People voted for the Labour Party which pretty much wanted a clean

:53:00.:53:05.

full Brexit. You say the Parliamentary arithmetic has changed

:53:06.:53:08.

so what are you expecting those MPs to do, to vote down every piece of

:53:09.:53:15.

Brexit legislation that comes into the House of Commons? No. I think

:53:16.:53:20.

they will scrutinise it. The exact positions we are yet to see. It is

:53:21.:53:25.

not one Big Bang. You have a separate thing on the customs union

:53:26.:53:29.

because the government said it is so complicated we have to give it

:53:30.:53:33.

proper Parliamentary time for scrutiny so there will be a whole

:53:34.:53:36.

load of discussion about that customs union. Things like a border

:53:37.:53:40.

between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, how do you get

:53:41.:53:44.

around that? It is positive that will be a lot of time to scrutinise

:53:45.:53:49.

these things rather than having one single possession of we must do

:53:50.:53:55.

this. I genuinely do not know why might the numbers are. Nicky Morgan,

:53:56.:54:02.

a remain campaigner... As were many Tory MPs... Exactly. I think 185

:54:03.:54:08.

last time. It is probably gone down a little bit given the changes. It

:54:09.:54:13.

is all to play for. We are yet to see what there is a majority for. No

:54:14.:54:19.

deal is better than a bad deal is out the window. Particularly because

:54:20.:54:24.

of the DUP and others. Transitional deal is very interesting. That was

:54:25.:54:28.

not mentioned at all in the Queen's Speech. The length of that than the

:54:29.:54:33.

terms will be interesting. Do you think no deal is better than a bad

:54:34.:54:38.

deal has gone? I do not think so. You cannot go in seeing your --

:54:39.:54:44.

unless you say you are prepared to walk away if you do not get the deal

:54:45.:54:53.

you want. Since the election I am pleased with the more constructive

:54:54.:54:56.

consensual torn from both sides. Do you think no deal is better than a

:54:57.:55:02.

bad deal? Yes. You think it would be better to come out of the cannot get

:55:03.:55:06.

the deal we want and go onto World Trade Organisation deals? Yes. You

:55:07.:55:13.

would not go into a negotiation... Why do you think it is better to

:55:14.:55:17.

leave without a deal than have a bad deal? If the EU said the bill for

:55:18.:55:24.

leaving is not 100 billion euros, it is 200 billion... You would pay 100

:55:25.:55:31.

billion? No, but of it was 200 billion I would walk away. What

:55:32.:55:37.

should it be? You have to look at the whole range, from the bill to

:55:38.:55:42.

freedom of movement to the role of the City of London to the trade

:55:43.:55:47.

deal... You would be prepared to pay a reasonably high price to get

:55:48.:55:51.

exactly the same sort of benefits David Davis talked about when we

:55:52.:55:56.

leave the single market? Yes. You cannot put a figure on it. It does

:55:57.:56:03.

not sound like your viewers are that far apart. Even friction and border

:56:04.:56:09.

trade. He wants the same thing as you. He is saying we have to leave

:56:10.:56:14.

single market. Is that not what the referendum said? People voted on

:56:15.:56:21.

remaining or leaving the EU. People claiming they knew precisely what

:56:22.:56:24.

everything got person voted for a... I have the gift for Matthew Elliott,

:56:25.:56:34.

a reminder of what people voted for, a bus seeing ?350 million a week,

:56:35.:56:40.

because that is what you and your colleagues still people who did get

:56:41.:56:44.

back into this country for the NHS and other priorities, so making

:56:45.:56:50.

assumptions... Have we seen the 350 million? Are you going to put that

:56:51.:56:57.

in the bin? What has happened to the claim? Many people voted on the

:56:58.:57:03.

basis they might get ?350 million for the NHS. Everyone involved,

:57:04.:57:09.

myself, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, have been clear when we get the

:57:10.:57:14.

Brexit dividend from leaving we would like to see more money for the

:57:15.:57:18.

NHS. Is that something you are going to lobby government for? Yes. You

:57:19.:57:23.

might get that money going to the NHS. We have seen a drop in the

:57:24.:57:29.

number of people applying to be nurses here. Perhaps we should be it

:57:30.:57:35.

once we have left the EU and it is done and dusted how much extra money

:57:36.:57:39.

there has been for the NHS. I would suggest there will be less not more

:57:40.:57:42.

with the economy going how it is going.

:57:43.:57:45.

Now it's time for the answer to our quiz.

:57:46.:57:47.

Let's remind ourselves of Question Time last night.

:57:48.:57:49.

The question was - what happened next?

:57:50.:57:58.

David Dimbleby rightly asked him to leave the audience.

:57:59.:58:10.

Because he just has to go on for longer if you shout out.

:58:11.:58:15.

So you might as well keep quiet and hear what he has to say.

:58:16.:58:18.

Do we want more instability in this country?

:58:19.:58:20.

I think you ought to leave, you know.

:58:21.:58:24.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:25.:58:41.

Andrew will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11am

:58:42.:58:43.

And I'll be back here on BBC Two on Monday at midday

:58:44.:58:47.

A defenceless man killed in cold blood by your hand.

:58:48.:59:14.

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