26/06/2017 Daily Politics


26/06/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP and former cabinet minister, Stephen Crabb, and former Labour minister, Margaret Hodge, for the latest news and debate from Westminster.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:39.:00:42.

Theresa May has just done a deal with the Democratic Unionist Party

:00:43.:00:48.

for support in key parliamentary votes, at the cost of ?1 billion.

:00:49.:00:51.

Every sample of cladding tested so far from England's tower blocks

:00:52.:00:56.

How could regulation have failed so badly?

:00:57.:01:03.

Theresa May said it was a "fair and generous offer" on the rights

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of EU citizens in the UK after Brexit - EU

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Will they be any more impressed when they see

:01:10.:01:13.

Jeremy Corbyn gets the rock star treatment at Glastonbury,

:01:14.:01:19.

but will he get as warm a welcome from his own MPs after saying that

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he'd scrap Britain's nuclear deterrent if he became Prime

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

:01:26.:01:38.

of the programme today, two MPs who can draw

:01:39.:01:40.

an audience twice the size of Jeremy Corbyn's, just

:01:41.:01:45.

by appearing on the Daily Politics programme.

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Rock stars in your own right on Daily Politics!

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Former Labour minister, and redoubtable chair

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of the Public Accounts Committee, Margaret Hodge.

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And former Welsh Secretary and Conservative MP, Stephen Crabb.

:01:57.:01:59.

First this afternoon, in the last hour or so Theresa May

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has concluded a deal with the Democratic Unionist party

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on a so-called confidence and supply agreement,

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in which the Northern Irish party will support

:02:07.:02:08.

The Prime Minister needs the party's MPs after failing to win an overall

:02:09.:02:15.

Let's hear what DUP leader Arlene Foster had to say earlier in Downing

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Street. Today, we have reached an agreement

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with the Conservative Party on support for Government

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in Parliament. This agreement will operate

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to deliver a stable Government in the United Kingdom's national

:02:36.:02:38.

interest at this vital time. Throughout these discussions,

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our guiding principle has been our commitment to acting

:02:42.:02:44.

in the national interest, in accordance with our shared

:02:45.:02:47.

objectives for strenthening In concluding this wide-ranging

:02:48.:02:50.

agreement, we have done so on the basis of advancing

:02:51.:02:58.

the security of our nation, building prosperity for all,

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and supporting an exit from the European Union

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that benefits all parts The details of our agreement

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and future working arrangements will be

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published in full. Let's talk to the BBC's

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Northern Ireland political editor, Mark Devenport, who is in Downing

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Street. It took a while but we finally had

:03:34.:03:39.

the deal? Obviously there was some haggling

:03:40.:03:43.

that went on behind the scenes, whatever the Government's original

:03:44.:03:48.

offer was, the DUP probably asking for more and ending up somewhere in

:03:49.:03:50.

the middle. The DUP will feel they have a good deal in terms of getting

:03:51.:03:56.

?1 billion in extra money and flexibility over the use of half ?1

:03:57.:04:00.

billion from a previous agreement which Treasury rules had made it

:04:01.:04:04.

difficult to spend, I don't think they necessarily got everything they

:04:05.:04:07.

were seeking in terms of changing tax rate in Northern Ireland, only a

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commitment to secure things like air passenger duty and VAT on tourism in

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Northern Ireland. But they have now provided what the

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Government needed, a workable majority on key votes?

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Absolutely, and what they are offering is to essentially keep

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Theresa May's Government in business, they will support it in

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relation to the budget, votes of confidence, any vote related to the

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UK's exit from the European Union because of course they were

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Brexiteers during the referendum campaign, and also in relation to

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any legislation brought forward as regards national security. In terms

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of other matters, they have withheld the right to vote according to

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whatever they decide as parliament comes up.

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We are looking at pictures of the documents being signed, Jeffrey

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Donaldson to the DUP, Gavin Williamson there for the

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Conservatives, shaking hands on that deal. The Prime Minister not looking

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entirely comfortable, I have to say, when you look at the choreography.

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The DUP have, to some extent, extracted a high price, haven't

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they? Yes, I think they always promised that if they held the

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balance of power in a hung parliament they would look to gain

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influence and extra resources for Northern Ireland and that is what

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they have done. The big question now is, what will the impact of this be

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on the situation back at Stormont, where the power-sharing executive

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does not exist, will be as large as from Westminster be enough to

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display to Sinn Fein that they should get into the power-sharing

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executive with the DUP or will they see this as quite separate or

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insufficient? There have already been Keith --

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accusations that the Government will no longer be an honest broker in

:05:53.:05:57.

trying to restore the power-sharing arrangement but Arlene Foster was at

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pains, I thought, when she gave her statement to say that the money they

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have got for the Government will be for all people in Northern Ireland,

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to benefit everyone in Northern Ireland, signalling strongly to the

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nationalist community that this is for everybody?

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Yes, there are elements of this which will undoubtedly be welcomed

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by many people in Northern Ireland, the York Street interchange in

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Belfast, there have been lots of delays of work, I imagine

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nationalists and unionists will be happy if they can go more smoothly

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through that exchange, and also superfast broadband, another element

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of the package. There is not a lot of politics in the deal that I have

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seen so far, although there is a reference to the new Legacy

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institutions which had been created to tackle the history of the

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troubles, and that reference is the Conservatives and DUP don't want

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those bodies to, in any unfair way, pursue military veterans and former

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members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, so that is the two

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parties probably saying something Sinn Fein would have doubts

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about but so far that is the only element I can see that might be

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partisan in relation to the deal. Finally, on policy commitments,

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there has been some talk that the triple lock for pensioners will now

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be retained, and manifesto commitment by the Conservatives but,

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because of the result, there was discussion it might not stay, and

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also Winter Fuel Payments for all pensioners, have you heard that both

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of those things now will remain? Yes, that was bailed out by Arlene

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Foster in her comments a few moments ago in Downing Street, she said the

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triple lock will stay, no means testing of the winter fuel

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allowance, interesting that both of those commitments were made by the

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DUP in their manifesto... But is that for Northern Ireland or

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the whole of the UKAs far as I understand it, having a quick look

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here, she says that there will be no change, yes, I will double-check

:07:57.:08:00.

that, no change across the United Kingdom, so what they are saying is

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they are unionists, they believe in the United Kingdom and they have

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looked for things in relation to the whole of the United Kingdom and they

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have stuck by their manifesto, and obviously the difference between a

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confidence and supply deal and formal coalition is that they have

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the benefit of being able to stick to some things they said in their

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manifesto and not necessarily trade things away, so that is something

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where they will claim an achievement not just in Northern Ireland but

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across the UK. Thank you very much.

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We're joined now from Belfast by the former

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Democratic Unionist Party assembly member, Alistair Ross.

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Your reaction to the deal that has been announced today? I think it is

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a good deal for Northern Ireland, the DUP were clear when they entered

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the discussions it would be for the benefit of Northern Ireland. ?1

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billion per Northern Ireland in terms of infrastructure projects,

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broadband, that is positive, more money for health and education, that

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is clearly positive, but I also think people will be pleased they

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have been able to influence wider Government policy, as you have been

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talking about, the triple lock repentance, Winter Fuel Payments,

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also in terms of defence spending and of course the fact they are

:09:10.:09:13.

allowing the Government to be formed, giving an element of

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stability. One of the most important thing is, Northern Ireland point of

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view is those commitments to spending are within the first two

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years, so any concerned there would have been that the parliament will

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not last five years is helped by the DUP making sure that those economic

:09:29.:09:33.

commitments are made in the first two years parliament. So perhaps you

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have the DUP to thank for getting the Government back on its tracks,

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it now has a workable majority. Did you ever think you would see

:09:42.:09:45.

yourself in a position where you had to rely on Ulster Unionist Party for

:09:46.:09:50.

working in Government? It is not the outcome any of us wanted when we

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embarked on the campaign nine weeks ago but the electorate have given

:09:53.:09:58.

their verdict, they delivered a hung parliament, they cast their votes

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and this is the parliament we have got. If you look at countries across

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Europe which are more used to this, it happens regularly,

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perhaps we are not used to it in Britain but it is the cost of doing

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business, we need a Government with a functioning majority in the House

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of Commons. My party does not have that majority so we do a deal with a

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minor party. The Liberal Democrats did not want to discuss coalition,

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Plaid Cymru didn't, so we are doing a deal with the Ulster Unionist

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Party you didn't have to, you could have the country as a minority

:10:34.:10:36.

Government, you would not have had to pay ?1 billion, which many will

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say is too high a price to pay for the support of the Ulster Unionist

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Party. If it allows us as the Government to do things other than

:10:43.:10:45.

just delivering on Brexit, which is really important, but if it gives us

:10:46.:10:50.

the opportunity of passing legislation, to renew

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infrastructure, develop and improve schools and education policies, then

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we will be looking back saying, actually, that was well worth it for

:10:57.:10:58.

the taxpayer and the United Kingdom.

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There is every indication it will be a slimmed down legislative programme

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because it will be difficult to get things who like the bills you

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outline. Margaret Hodge, the DUP has managed to extract from the

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Government commitment to keeping Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners

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and the triple pension, both of which were in the Labour manifesto.

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Another thing Theresa May in estimated, skilled negotiators are

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very practice that, she announced she had got a deal with incredible,

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48 hours, and it has taken her much longer to -- much longer than to

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reach the deal with the Liberal Democrats. I'm pleased they have got

:11:39.:11:42.

back the rights for pensioners but I will say two things, ?1 billion for

:11:43.:11:46.

Northern Ireland, what will that do to Scotland, north-east England,

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Wales, places like that? And you said something which rather caught

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my ear, which was the deal that was done around the agreement, and the

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implications there. Is this going to be self-contained? Will we see steps

:12:05.:12:08.

starting to undermine the Northern Ireland agreement? And Chris Patten

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said yesterday this is the beginnings of the nasty party back

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in the Tory party. Let's pick up on the power-sharing agreement, because

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there have been reports, I don't think it has been confirmed, that

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the ?1 billion would in some way be conditional on restoring

:12:25.:12:25.

power-sharing. I don't think that it is, but it

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will provide incentive, if you have a Northern Ireland executive with

:12:36.:12:39.

additional money, it would be in the interest of all political parties

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there to have a say in how it is spent. If Shane -- if Sinn Fein are

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not willing to get back involved, then they would have no say. The

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exchange project will not cost all of the money that has been earmarked

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for investment for infrastructure projects, there is money that could

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be spent in other places, and I would have thought Sinn Fein would

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want to have some influence En-Nahda. The only way they can do

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that is get back into government. They don't want to see Arlene Foster

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as First Minister, they compared her to a crocodile that keeps asking for

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more. Do you think that will help bring the two sides together?

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Politicians in Northern Ireland have many issues dividing them, but the

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one thing that should unite them is trying to get investments, getting

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more money to tackle the waiting list in the health system, to tackle

:13:36.:13:38.

educational underachievement, and when it comes down to the last 24

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hours of negotiations here to get devolution back up and running,

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these are the most significant aspects. We have not had time to

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absorb this, but the money is to be spent within two years, so does that

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mean a general election at the end of two years? Of course it doesn't

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mean that. But does it mean more money? It means there is every

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incentive for the politicians in Northern Ireland to get back to

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Stormont to work out how to spend the money... But in two years they

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will be asking for more money from the Government here. Well, let's see

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what happens. Even if the Theresa May government lasts over this

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coming period, it won't last more than two years. We're going to talk

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to Damian Green later in the programme, but for now thank you

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very much. The question for today

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is which of these members of the House of Lords

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is the odd one out? At the end of the show

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we'll see if Stephen and Margaret No idea! I will be impressed if you

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do! Brno. Now, over the weekend residents

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in Camden were evacuated from their homes in high-rise

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buildings which have failed fire safety tests following the fire

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at Grenfell Tower two weeks ago. So what do we know so

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far about the safety Last week, the Government

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started assessing So far, they have tested 60

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buildings in 14 council areas, all of which have failed

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the fire-safety tests. The aluminium composite material,

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or ACM, panels were fitted during a recent ?10 million

:15:23.:15:24.

refurbishment of Grenfell Tower to These cladding panels have a foam

:15:25.:15:27.

core made of polyethylene, surrounded by two sheets

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of aluminium, which is flammable. Official building regulations

:15:36.:15:40.

recommend that only non-combustible cores are used on buildings

:15:41.:15:43.

over 18 metres tall. There is also an air gap

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behind these panels to allow moisture to evaporate,

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but safety experts say this may have caused

:15:55.:15:57.

a chimney effect in directing the flames

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up the building. installed between panels,

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but it is unclear whether these barriers were fitted

:16:05.:16:10.

in Grenfell Tower. In addition, Grenfell was not fitted

:16:11.:16:13.

with a sprinkler system during the refurbishment,

:16:14.:16:17.

although there is no legal requirement for local authorities

:16:18.:16:21.

to install one in older buildings. And the Housing Minister Alok Sharma

:16:22.:16:25.

was on BBC Breakfast this morning. We have put in place

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a very clear process to make sure with a particular type of

:16:29.:16:33.

aluminium cladding are tested. We have test facilities that

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are able to test 100 samples a day, and that can be

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extended if required. And we're making sure that as soon

:16:48.:16:48.

as we find out that a building has failed and has got cladding

:16:49.:16:52.

which is noncompliant, immediately the local

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authority is informed, and they go to the building

:16:55.:16:55.

and do the right checks. And clearly, as you have just said,

:16:56.:17:00.

in the case of Camden, where it wasn't just cladding

:17:01.:17:02.

but there were multiple other failures

:17:03.:17:04.

when it came to fire safety, I have nothing but admiration

:17:05.:17:06.

for the way that people have dealt with that who've been

:17:07.:17:10.

affected by this. We're joined now

:17:11.:17:12.

from Broadcasting House by the BBC's home affairs

:17:13.:17:14.

correspondent Tom Symonds. Welcome to the Daily Politics, how

:17:15.:17:25.

can it be that every sample that has been tested so far has failed? Well,

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this is a complicated business. Just to give you a bit of the background,

:17:31.:17:34.

all of these refurbishments are signed off under the building

:17:35.:17:39.

regulations, and they actually state, I think slightly differently

:17:40.:17:42.

to what you reported just then, any cladding used as to be of limited

:17:43.:17:47.

combustibility, not noncombustible. So the kind of cladding involved and

:17:48.:17:52.

Grenfell Tower was legal under the building regulations. Having said

:17:53.:17:55.

that, those regulations are quite complex. The concern is that all of

:17:56.:17:58.

those samples will have been effectively passed by the building

:17:59.:18:02.

regulations, and now they are failing this new test. The question

:18:03.:18:06.

is why. It is quite possible the test is much more tough than the

:18:07.:18:12.

sorts of certification processes that the cladding goes through

:18:13.:18:16.

before it is allowed to be used, and that is a testing regime that goes

:18:17.:18:21.

back decades. As you say, there is perhaps now a new testing regime

:18:22.:18:24.

that the cladding has failed, but because none of it had been tested

:18:25.:18:28.

before it had been fitted because it was deemed OK the last time around.

:18:29.:18:35.

That's right. Just to give you one example, we understand the way that

:18:36.:18:38.

the testing has been done in the past is to effectively test the heat

:18:39.:18:42.

resistance to the aluminium surface of the cladding, so the side of the

:18:43.:18:47.

cladding. Now, if you try to test the edge of it, where the plastic

:18:48.:18:52.

bits that is the sandwich filler, if you like, is exposed, then it is

:18:53.:18:56.

much more likely to burn, and it is possible these new tests are testing

:18:57.:19:00.

that edge, rather than testing the bit where the aluminium is

:19:01.:19:04.

protecting the middle bit of the sandwich. It is complicated, as you

:19:05.:19:09.

say, but it cannot just be about cladding. I know there is a lot of

:19:10.:19:13.

focus there, but we have talked about sprinklers, how much of a

:19:14.:19:17.

difference would that have made? It is not going to be just about the

:19:18.:19:21.

cladding, that is pretty certain. Some experts are suggesting that the

:19:22.:19:25.

design of the cladding is as dumb around the tower had a part to play,

:19:26.:19:28.

creating a chimney effect that you talked. I think that will be

:19:29.:19:35.

highlighted and more in the weeks to come. A sprinkler system turns a

:19:36.:19:39.

building not into a passive fire safety system, where effectively the

:19:40.:19:42.

fire burns out in one flat and doesn't spread, that is the theory,

:19:43.:19:46.

but it enables you to put the sprinkler on in one flat and

:19:47.:19:49.

evacuate the whole building, or even evacuate the whole building with the

:19:50.:19:54.

system going. So it is a different type of safety system. But according

:19:55.:19:57.

to the information the Government has given to councils, they say if

:19:58.:20:03.

you have cladding that is questionable, which may burning

:20:04.:20:07.

fires, if you also have a sprinkler system, you have a lot less to worry

:20:08.:20:11.

about. I am paraphrasing, but that is the advice to councils at the

:20:12.:20:16.

moment. Tom Symonds, thanks very much for bringing us up to date, we

:20:17.:20:21.

will be hearing more about it as the inquiry gets under way. Every single

:20:22.:20:25.

piece of cladding taken for testing has failed, is this a catastrophic

:20:26.:20:30.

failure of building and health and safety regulations will be years?

:20:31.:20:31.

Absolutely. I mean, it is shocking that every single

:20:32.:20:47.

piece of cladding has come back as a fail. As we have heard, this is

:20:48.:20:49.

extremely complicated, but nobody should lose sight of the human

:20:50.:20:51.

element of this. We have the poorest people in the country in tower

:20:52.:20:54.

blocks that are clad with a material that can go up in flames. There is a

:20:55.:20:57.

reason why we have appointed a public inquiry to investigate what

:20:58.:20:59.

happened, but we can all predict that when we get to the end of it

:21:00.:21:03.

and find out what has gone on over a period of years in different parts

:21:04.:21:05.

of the country, we will never go back to doing things how they were.

:21:06.:21:12.

In terms of evacuating residents, we have heard numerous stories, not

:21:13.:21:15.

just from Camden but councils that have decided not to, do you supplies

:21:16.:21:24.

with councils who just say that they have to get residents out of towers

:21:25.:21:28.

that may be at risk? I think Camden council must have had really good

:21:29.:21:33.

reasons for deciding to start a evacuate people at 8:30 on a Friday

:21:34.:21:37.

night, not an easy decision to take, and we don't know the detail, but

:21:38.:21:42.

clearly a number of factors at work there, and the advice must have been

:21:43.:21:46.

pretty overpowering. What we are witnessing is two things, if you

:21:47.:21:51.

stand back from it, the Labour government is probably as guilty as

:21:52.:21:55.

the Conservative government, we have all run away from regulation, tried

:21:56.:22:00.

to deregulate, run away from inspection, and we have created,

:22:01.:22:03.

clearly, dangerous structures. Every single one phone to be dangerous,

:22:04.:22:08.

that is shocking, and what this has come to symbolise for me is the

:22:09.:22:13.

inequality in society, that you put poor people into housing, and you

:22:14.:22:18.

don't spend enough money on ensuring their safety and well-being, and

:22:19.:22:21.

that is a scandal that we should never allowed to recur. Do you think

:22:22.:22:25.

it is right to point the finger of blame at anyone until we know the

:22:26.:22:30.

full facts? No, we need to know the full facts. Kensington and Chelsea,

:22:31.:22:34.

if we can go back to the initial one, the idea that money was an

:22:35.:22:39.

issue is not the case, they have 250 million or something and balance,

:22:40.:22:43.

they gave their richest residents, those paying the highest council

:22:44.:22:49.

tax, ?100 back as a bride in the run-up to the election. They had the

:22:50.:22:54.

money to make sure... Sorry, some of the claims that we heard in the

:22:55.:22:58.

hours and days following the tragedy, from some in your own

:22:59.:23:02.

party, certainly some of the more aggressive online supporters of your

:23:03.:23:05.

party, were pointing the finger at Conservatives, as capitalism, all

:23:06.:23:13.

kinds of reasons. I don't go into that, Steve! You have admitted that

:23:14.:23:17.

the Labour run councils have, for decades, from the test we have been

:23:18.:23:20.

carrying out, have been using the same kind of cladding. We need to

:23:21.:23:26.

show a bit of humility, let's not engage in... I think the Labour

:23:27.:23:31.

government, I am not blaming the councils, I think both the Labour

:23:32.:23:35.

government, the coalition government and the Conservative government have

:23:36.:23:38.

prioritised money-saving and deregulation, and I think in

:23:39.:23:42.

Kensington what was particularly distressing was any suggestion that

:23:43.:23:51.

money was an issue, it was obviously not. Let's listen to John McDonnell,

:23:52.:23:55.

who made this remark at Glastonbury. Is democracy working? It didn't work

:23:56.:23:58.

if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower. Those

:23:59.:24:06.

families, those individuals, 79 so far, and there will be more, were

:24:07.:24:11.

murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.

:24:12.:24:17.

APPLAUSE The decision...

:24:18.:24:21.

The decision not to build homes and to view housing has only for

:24:22.:24:27.

financial speculation, rather than for meeting a basic human need,

:24:28.:24:34.

decisions made by politicians over decades, murdered those families...

:24:35.:24:39.

Do you agree with John McDonnell saying that the victims of the fire

:24:40.:24:42.

were murdered by political decisions? I agree we should listen

:24:43.:24:48.

to the tenants, but I disagree with the language, and I think that is

:24:49.:24:52.

the language of the hard left, which is not done in my name. Should it be

:24:53.:24:58.

retracted? I think it was inappropriate. David Lammy has been

:24:59.:25:01.

talking about corporate manslaughter, and we may well have

:25:02.:25:04.

to see how the facts come out, but there may well be a case for that,

:25:05.:25:08.

but that is a very different way of doing it. When you say not in your

:25:09.:25:21.

name, the language of the hard left, they are leading and running your

:25:22.:25:24.

party, they own your party, they are your party. They don't own our

:25:25.:25:26.

party, I am expressing a different view. The Portsmouth City Council

:25:27.:25:29.

leader said John McDonnell should withdraw the comments that residents

:25:30.:25:35.

were murdered, but there is an awful lot of anger about. People on the

:25:36.:25:40.

right and the left have two feel angry about what happened in the

:25:41.:25:43.

tower block, as I said a few moments ago. It is an awful human tragedy,

:25:44.:25:48.

and people will be held to account for it when we complete the

:25:49.:25:51.

investigation, but the kind of language we have heard from the

:25:52.:25:55.

Shadow Chancellor is appalling, it achieves not think, it is all about

:25:56.:25:59.

stoking up the venom of the hard left, who wants to see Jeremy Corbyn

:26:00.:26:04.

as Prime Minister. But don't use that as an excuse to take away from

:26:05.:26:11.

the seriousness of the issues we are talking about, that was a remark

:26:12.:26:15.

made at an evening meeting somewhere... It was at Glastonbury.

:26:16.:26:21.

OK, at Glastonbury, not the most representative... Certainly very

:26:22.:26:27.

public. The point that Margaret Hodge was making is that these

:26:28.:26:31.

people did not feel they had a voice. Margaret is absolutely right.

:26:32.:26:36.

They were not listened to by people, and people will argue that tragedies

:26:37.:26:41.

like this give people a voice, sadly. And you are talking people

:26:42.:26:48.

whose command of the English language maybe was not very good,

:26:49.:26:50.

they were unsure of their own immigration status, so a lot of work

:26:51.:26:53.

needs to go on in housing estate up and down the country to make sure

:26:54.:26:56.

that tenants feel they can come forward and speak with confidence.

:26:57.:26:59.

Let's get back to our top story, that's the deal that's been

:27:00.:27:02.

concluded in the last hour or so with the Democratic Unionist Party.

:27:03.:27:05.

Let's hear what former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa

:27:06.:27:06.

I believe that this agreement is, I think it is welcomed, it will give

:27:07.:27:17.

an important degree of stability in relation to the UK Government. I

:27:18.:27:20.

believe that there is nothing in it which would, you know, make it

:27:21.:27:27.

difficult for the Stormont institutions to be re-established. I

:27:28.:27:32.

am sure that James Brokenshire, the Secretary of State, and his team

:27:33.:27:35.

will continue to work really hard with the Northern Ireland parties to

:27:36.:27:40.

get the devolved institutions up and running again.

:27:41.:27:48.

We're joined now by the First Secretary of State, Damian Green.

:27:49.:27:51.

You must be relieved to have the DUP on-board for your workable majority?

:27:52.:27:58.

People will be more confident the Government can get its legislative

:27:59.:28:04.

programme through because the deal covers legislation like budgets,

:28:05.:28:07.

national security legislation and of course the Queen's Speech. But also

:28:08.:28:14.

the deal means that the support we give in to Northern Ireland, I hope

:28:15.:28:17.

and expect, will make it easier to conclude a deal that allows the

:28:18.:28:21.

parties to get back to proper democratic devolved Government,

:28:22.:28:24.

which we all want to see in Northern Ireland. Before we get to

:28:25.:28:28.

power-sharing, let's talk about the deal and the amount of money that

:28:29.:28:32.

you had to give the DUP in order for them to agree to a confidence and

:28:33.:28:36.

supply arrangement. ?1 billion is a lot of money. That is a high price

:28:37.:28:40.

they have extracted from your Government. It is the sort of money

:28:41.:28:51.

that has been used before to try and push the peach process and

:28:52.:28:53.

devolution process forward in 2014 when the Stormont agreement was

:28:54.:28:56.

signed, actually there was a package of ?2 billion. We all know Northern

:28:57.:28:59.

Ireland has particular needs and problems because of its history and

:29:00.:29:04.

a lot of this money is infrastructure spending and 30 years

:29:05.:29:07.

because of the troubled infrastructure spending in Northern

:29:08.:29:11.

Ireland was heavily and rightly devoted to security and policing so

:29:12.:29:14.

there are other areas... If it was such a reasonable thing to do, why

:29:15.:29:19.

has it taken so long? It took a lot longer than the coalition agreement

:29:20.:29:22.

between the Liberal Democrat and Conservative 's, which took took

:29:23.:29:29.

five days, this has been far longer. We have been working to the time

:29:30.:29:33.

required to strike the deal. It was difficult to agree, wasn't it? All

:29:34.:29:40.

agreements take time. Five days for Nick Clegg and David Cameron. We

:29:41.:29:45.

wanted to do it in time for this Thursday's deadline on the

:29:46.:29:48.

devolution agreement, that is the key deadline in Northern Ireland.

:29:49.:29:53.

The key deadline was in order to get the Queen's Speech through

:29:54.:29:56.

Parliament and the House of Commons. Some people in your party suggested

:29:57.:29:59.

there was no need to strike a deal with the DUP at all, they're in

:30:00.:30:06.

their mind it would risk Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street. There is

:30:07.:30:09.

the confidence and supply deal, which gives confidence for people to

:30:10.:30:14.

know our legislative programme will be able to get through, but there is

:30:15.:30:19.

also the extra support, the financial deal, and as I say I think

:30:20.:30:23.

that will be really helpful because that can be spent by the Northern

:30:24.:30:29.

Ireland executive, not by the DUP, by... You would have given any

:30:30.:30:33.

amount of money because otherwise you would not have been able to have

:30:34.:30:37.

a working majority to push through a legislative programme. You can spend

:30:38.:30:40.

all the time you like saying it is good to Northern Ireland, they would

:30:41.:30:43.

agree to that, that is why they have signed the deal! This was about you

:30:44.:30:47.

paying any price because you need the support. We haven't paid any

:30:48.:30:54.

price, we deliberately decided to support in specific ways for

:30:55.:30:57.

specific projects, helping people who have got mental health problems

:30:58.:31:03.

and again after the troubles that is a particular issue in Northern

:31:04.:31:06.

Ireland, just as we have said we will spend more money on mental

:31:07.:31:10.

health throughout the country, Morsi the deals as in other parts of the

:31:11.:31:14.

United Kingdom. Are you also pleased and grateful to the DUP in fact for

:31:15.:31:21.

their stance and position in these negotiations to drop cutting Winter

:31:22.:31:24.

Fuel Payments for some pensioners and maintaining the triple-lock for

:31:25.:31:29.

pensioners? We saw what happened at the election, and the Prime Minister

:31:30.:31:35.

has said subsequently, OK, we will listen to what people maybe didn't

:31:36.:31:38.

want to hear from us at the election and those are two examples where

:31:39.:31:42.

clearly people didn't want that, so we have been flexible about that.

:31:43.:31:47.

How much will it cost to keep Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners over

:31:48.:31:51.

the next few years? We don't know what the extra is, it cost about 2

:31:52.:31:57.

billion a year and because we were going to consult on the level at

:31:58.:32:00.

which we would start means testing, there isn't a baseline figure you

:32:01.:32:07.

can work from, no hard and fast cost because it wasn't going to happen

:32:08.:32:10.

this winter anyway because it would have been too late to have a

:32:11.:32:14.

consultation. You don't need to save the money any more then? We need to

:32:15.:32:19.

keep saving money, bringing the deficit down... That is not going to

:32:20.:32:25.

help, is it, it is an extra cost? One of the advantages and sometimes

:32:26.:32:29.

disadvantages of democracy, people get their say and we have to listen

:32:30.:32:33.

to what people say at elections and referendums and that is what we are

:32:34.:32:39.

doing. So austerities has gone? The idea that suddenly we have unlimited

:32:40.:32:43.

money everywhere for everything is not true. What is true is that if

:32:44.:32:47.

you have a consistently strong economy, which we have had for a

:32:48.:32:51.

number of years now, you can afford to spend more money... People will

:32:52.:32:55.

look at rising inflation, the falling pound, people will say, is

:32:56.:32:59.

the economy as good and strong as you say if wages are not keeping up

:33:00.:33:03.

with prices and the cost of living has gone up, and yet you can spend,

:33:04.:33:08.

we don't yet know, of course, an unspecified extra amount on keeping

:33:09.:33:10.

Winter Fuel Payments for wealthy pensioners? We

:33:11.:33:25.

can spend extra money because the underlying growth rate of the

:33:26.:33:27.

economy is strong enough to enable us to do so. We said at the

:33:28.:33:30.

election, we pointed out that in our spending plans we had an extra 8

:33:31.:33:33.

billion... If the economy was so strong, why did you want to make the

:33:34.:33:35.

cuts during the election campaign? Why did you feel it was a good idea

:33:36.:33:38.

to continue with austerity in this regard, the triple lock to a

:33:39.:33:40.

double-lock, cutting Winter Fuel Payments, if we have such a strong

:33:41.:33:43.

economy? All Government is a balance, you have to decide how much

:33:44.:33:47.

money you can afford to spend without loading borrowing on future

:33:48.:33:50.

generations... Which you are doing now. At the same time you want to

:33:51.:33:57.

spend as much as you can on the vital public services and on parts

:33:58.:34:01.

of the country that haven't shared in the general rising prosperity.

:34:02.:34:05.

That is what Government is, a collection of making those choices.

:34:06.:34:10.

Amber Rudd, Home Secretary, used the expression magic money tree when

:34:11.:34:13.

describing Labour's policies and she may feel that is what it was, but

:34:14.:34:17.

the Tories have now got their very own magic money tree because you are

:34:18.:34:21.

now loading future generations. If we use the bar and the measure you

:34:22.:34:32.

set during the election campaign to bring down costs and further reduce

:34:33.:34:35.

the deficit, do try and make an impact on overall debt, you are

:34:36.:34:37.

doing the exact opposite. We have a clear commitment to eliminate the

:34:38.:34:40.

deficit by the middle years of the next decade, that was what we went

:34:41.:34:42.

into the election with. The announcement today makes no

:34:43.:34:47.

difference to that, that is still our target and under all the

:34:48.:34:51.

projections of various economists, that can still be met, so we are

:34:52.:34:59.

still aiming at that target. It is not true, and I think... What is not

:35:00.:35:06.

true? That we will be able to cut the deficit without devastating

:35:07.:35:09.

cuts. The economy is not growing as fast as it was the first quarter of

:35:10.:35:13.

this year compared to last year. Inflation is going up, we have

:35:14.:35:18.

pressures on things like the cost of inflation, public sector pay,

:35:19.:35:21.

benefit levels... So you are advocating more spending as per the

:35:22.:35:26.

Labour manifesto? If it were me I would advocate not cutting the

:35:27.:35:31.

deficit as a priority. One at a time. This is why I say this is not

:35:32.:35:38.

an open, honest conversation and if it was open and honest you would

:35:39.:35:42.

say, we have got all these problems, we will put cutting the deficit on

:35:43.:35:47.

the back burner. We get criticised for not cutting the deficit faster

:35:48.:35:51.

in some quarters. George Osborne in 2010... You didn't cut it as fast as

:35:52.:35:57.

you said you were going to. We cut two thirds of the deficit over the

:35:58.:36:01.

past seven years, 100 billion off the deficit, and we have said we

:36:02.:36:05.

will take a gradual reduction in deficit, which is responsible...

:36:06.:36:08.

Isn't that putting austerities likely to the back burner here,

:36:09.:36:13.

which is what you want? I am not quarrelling with putting the deficit

:36:14.:36:17.

on the back burner. What I am quarrelling with is that there ought

:36:18.:36:23.

to be openness and honesty in these discussions on these programmes for

:36:24.:36:26.

the British people about the state of the public services, the state of

:36:27.:36:30.

the public finances, and the ability... In the election manifesto

:36:31.:36:37.

it committed to tens of billions of extra spending with no sign

:36:38.:36:41.

whatsoever... I am not the Government, Damian, you are. Can I

:36:42.:36:46.

come back to the power-sharing? You mentioned it at the beginning, how

:36:47.:36:50.

confident are you now as a result of this deal and Arlene Foster's words

:36:51.:36:54.

that this will be for all people in Northern Ireland that we will have a

:36:55.:36:57.

power-sharing executive backed instalment? I am hopeful because

:36:58.:37:01.

this is a good deal for all of Northern Ireland. We all know the

:37:02.:37:06.

history there, I am not part of the talks over there so I don't know in

:37:07.:37:11.

detail what has happened with the talks, but certainly this deal,

:37:12.:37:14.

specifically because the money is there to be spent by the Northern

:37:15.:37:19.

Ireland executive, everyone from all political persuasions in Northern

:37:20.:37:23.

Ireland can benefit from this deal and the Northern Ireland executive

:37:24.:37:28.

can decide how best to spend this money to support Northern Ireland's

:37:29.:37:32.

infrastructure across the area. This, I hope, will make a positive

:37:33.:37:36.

contribution to making sure we do get that new devolved executive in

:37:37.:37:41.

Northern Ireland. Damian Green, thank you for coming in.

:37:42.:37:43.

The Government is going to publish a 15-page document setting out more

:37:44.:37:46.

details on what rights EU citizens living in the UK

:37:47.:37:48.

That's after we got some provisional plans from Theresa May

:37:49.:37:52.

Let's take a look at what the Brexit Secretary David Davis had

:37:53.:37:58.

The main thrust of this is this actually gives an undertaking

:37:59.:38:03.

to all 3 million people in this country today, they will have

:38:04.:38:07.

rights, effectively British citizenship rights, or the same

:38:08.:38:09.

rights, as we said, and the reason we cast it that way

:38:10.:38:14.

is because we were getting a lot of stories coming back,

:38:15.:38:16.

particularly from central Europe, where people were saying,

:38:17.:38:18.

"Oh, we're going to be made second-class citizens."

:38:19.:38:20.

No, that was the point, absolutely the point.

:38:21.:38:26.

David Davis there. Stephen Crabb, have you been impressed with the

:38:27.:38:31.

Government's handling of the issue? Personally speaking I would have

:38:32.:38:34.

liked to have seen the statement we had last week about the rights of EU

:38:35.:38:39.

citizens in the UK come earlier but we all knew we were going to get at

:38:40.:38:42.

this point, we all knew there was going to be a very big... You might

:38:43.:38:47.

say that but EU citizens here who are worried about their futures

:38:48.:38:50.

might not have been so confident. Theresa May was clear she regarded

:38:51.:38:52.

this as an urgent priority at the start

:38:53.:39:08.

of the Brexit negotiators, she has kept good faith by doing that and we

:39:09.:39:11.

have made that big, generous offer. I think it goes a long way to

:39:12.:39:13.

satisfying the questions but there will need to be further negotiations

:39:14.:39:15.

around some technical details and the crucial issue of whether there

:39:16.:39:18.

is a role for something like the European Court of Justice in terms

:39:19.:39:20.

of arbitrating full rights of EU citizens in the UK. Were you

:39:21.:39:23.

surprised by the chairman of the 3 million Movement, which represents

:39:24.:39:25.

the EU nationals living here, you says there is something slightly

:39:26.:39:27.

pathetic about the proposal which makes no details of the

:39:28.:39:32.

comprehensive offer tabled by the EU in their offer a little while ago? I

:39:33.:39:36.

don't agree with that, we will see the detailed this afternoon when our

:39:37.:39:40.

document gets published, but I think both the tone and substance of what

:39:41.:39:45.

the Prime Minister is laying out is correct. As I say, there will need

:39:46.:39:49.

to be further negotiation around, for example, the issue of exporting

:39:50.:40:11.

benefits, there will be tricky discussions around that, but I think

:40:12.:40:13.

the basic outline of a deal is there, I think our counterparts in

:40:14.:40:14.

Europe will quickly want to do a deal on this so I have every faith

:40:15.:40:16.

that this will be one -- this will not be one of the bigger problems of

:40:17.:40:17.

the Brexit negotiation. Everyone has said they want to do a deal and not

:40:18.:40:19.

use EU citizens as bargaining chips but the EU came forward with their

:40:20.:40:19.

own proposals for EU citizens in the UK and vice versa a couple of weeks

:40:20.:40:24.

ago. Should Theresa May have reference to that document and made

:40:25.:40:27.

it clear whether she supported their plans or not? This is a negotiation,

:40:28.:40:32.

they set out their position, we set out our position and doubt there

:40:33.:40:36.

will be negotiation to maybe meet in the middle. As I said, I think the

:40:37.:40:40.

only big area of contention will be around the issue of the European

:40:41.:40:45.

Court of Justice and what role it may have in the right of EU citizens

:40:46.:40:49.

in the UK. Margaret Hodge, this now seems to be certainly the beginning

:40:50.:40:54.

of a firm offer, whether you agree it is generous or not, it is a firm

:40:55.:40:58.

offer, we are now being able to judge for ourselves what is being

:40:59.:41:02.

put on the table. Do you still have worries about the rights of EU

:41:03.:41:05.

citizens that have moved here right until the triggering of Article 50?

:41:06.:41:11.

Yes, I do, and I think again the general comment was that if you

:41:12.:41:15.

think back ten weeks, everybody was very fearful, I think, worried about

:41:16.:41:22.

the nature of the negotiations. You saw Theresa May last week talking to

:41:23.:41:28.

European leaders, it was with disdain and pity. I think the power

:41:29.:41:34.

has shifted considerably and the power now lies much more with the

:41:35.:41:39.

Europeans and you could see that. My concerns are the rights of

:41:40.:41:42.

relatives, that has not been spelt out. The time frame, and the

:41:43.:41:48.

European Court. We have seen in the papers this morning that one of the

:41:49.:41:52.

ways in which Theresa May and the Government are hoping to sell this

:41:53.:41:57.

deal, saying, we are going to be really tough, any EU citizen who

:41:58.:42:01.

ends up in the criminal justice system will get deported. At the

:42:02.:42:04.

Public Accounts Committee, we looked at this issue not that long ago, and

:42:05.:42:10.

ironically when Theresa May was Home Secretary she completely failed to

:42:11.:42:14.

do anything about deporting people who had been imprisoned for

:42:15.:42:20.

misdemeanours... Because presumably she couldn't? No, she could have

:42:21.:42:26.

done. What was so shocking, Jo, I probably came on this programme to

:42:27.:42:30.

describe at the time, she was Home Secretary, she wanted to deport

:42:31.:42:34.

people who had been imprisoned, she increased... Isn't there a

:42:35.:42:39.

threshold? She increased tenfold the money she put into it, she didn't

:42:40.:42:43.

increase the number going up, worse still she let people out of prison

:42:44.:42:48.

into the community... Your party introduced the human rights... If

:42:49.:42:52.

she failed and we take what Margaret Hodge is saying at face value,

:42:53.:42:55.

because as I understood there is a threshold in terms of the crimes

:42:56.:42:59.

that have to be committed before the EU would accept their citizens

:43:00.:43:02.

coming back if they had been imprisoned, if the threshold made it

:43:03.:43:06.

so difficult then, what makes her think she will be better at it now?

:43:07.:43:10.

We all recognise we need to be better at dealing with serious

:43:11.:43:14.

criminals... But it is nothing to do with the EU if it is human rights?

:43:15.:43:23.

That is one of the issues, getting rid of really bad eggs in this

:43:24.:43:25.

country that should not be here. There are some human rights but the

:43:26.:43:29.

real issue is deep in efficiency and inability of the dysfunctional

:43:30.:43:32.

nature of our immigration system. Let's talk about one of the other

:43:33.:43:36.

things, the rights of relatives, because the European Commission

:43:37.:43:39.

published a paper on this last month and said any rights should apply to

:43:40.:43:42.

current and future family members. Do you agree?

:43:43.:43:47.

I think I do agree with it. You think? It sounds simple, the way you

:43:48.:43:57.

present it, but it isn't when you are looking at the rights that flow

:43:58.:44:02.

from residency in the UK in terms of access to health care, benefits and

:44:03.:44:06.

that kind of thing. It will be something worked out around the

:44:07.:44:10.

table. Will it be worked out soon? Obviously, it affects people and

:44:11.:44:13.

families, and people want to know what is going to happen. For

:44:14.:44:18.

example, does the minimum income rule, where you need to earn 18,006

:44:19.:44:27.

under pounds a year in order to bring a spouse from outside the EU,

:44:28.:44:30.

will that apply to EU citizens post-Brexit? -- ?18,600. We have not

:44:31.:44:35.

yet seen the document which will be published this afternoon. But do you

:44:36.:44:40.

think it should apply? The Government has announced a two year

:44:41.:44:44.

grace period, which shows a large measure of good faith on the part of

:44:45.:44:49.

the government, wanting to get this right, wanting to reassure EU

:44:50.:44:52.

citizens that we have their interests at heart. David Davis said

:44:53.:44:57.

yesterday he was pretty sure but not certain of a deal, securing a

:44:58.:45:01.

free-trade agreement with the EU, did that worry you? We should be

:45:02.:45:05.

doing everything we can to get ourselves in a position to do a

:45:06.:45:10.

deal, because the alternative is the status quo, not an option, because

:45:11.:45:15.

we voted for Brexit, and the other alternative is WTO rules, and I do

:45:16.:45:18.

not think that is a good outcome for our economy and our workers.

:45:19.:45:22.

Despite losing the election, Jeremy Corbyn has been riding high in

:45:23.:45:28.

recent weeks, and he got a rock star reception at Glastonbury, so will he

:45:29.:45:30.

use his new-found authority to cement the power of the left over

:45:31.:45:34.

the Labour Party? There will be a debate at the party conference in

:45:35.:45:37.

the autumn on whether the number of MPs needed to nominate a leadership

:45:38.:45:42.

contender should be reduced to just 5%. It is thought it would make it

:45:43.:45:46.

easier for a left-wing candidate to get elected. Let's see what the

:45:47.:45:52.

Shadow Cabinet office minister had to say about this yesterday. Is

:45:53.:45:57.

their pressure up for anyone who wants to leadership, 5% of MPs? I am

:45:58.:46:02.

not going to express a view at the present time. Why? Whenever there is

:46:03.:46:08.

a leadership election, it is important that every tendency is

:46:09.:46:13.

represented on the ballot paper, and a rule which prevents a section of

:46:14.:46:16.

the right or the left of the centre from getting on the ballot paper is

:46:17.:46:22.

a bad rule, so it is an argument for looking carefully at how we conduct

:46:23.:46:25.

leadership elections, and that debate can be had and ought to be

:46:26.:46:39.

had. Margaret Hodge, Jon Trickett sounding more or less supportive of

:46:40.:46:45.

that idea, the number of MPs needed to get a candidate on the ballot

:46:46.:46:49.

paper would be reduced, do you think it should be? No, at the end of the

:46:50.:46:54.

day, the leader of the Labour Party has to command the support of the

:46:55.:46:57.

Parliamentary Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn has done quite well without

:46:58.:47:02.

always having that support. He has done hugely well in getting young

:47:03.:47:07.

people to vote, and people who have never voted before, but we have got

:47:08.:47:10.

a lot of challenges to form a government. The purpose of a

:47:11.:47:15.

political parties to get into government. What was interesting, I

:47:16.:47:19.

didn't hear the Jon Trickett bit, but I did hear Paul Mason on one of

:47:20.:47:22.

the programmes yesterday, talking about how Jeremy Corbyn had to

:47:23.:47:27.

consolidate his power. I thought one of the things that Jeremy Corbyn

:47:28.:47:31.

track to say was that he wanted to redo politics in a much more

:47:32.:47:38.

democratic, open weight of decision-making within the party,

:47:39.:47:43.

and he is arguing for how he can control the NEC, control leadership

:47:44.:47:45.

elections, control the party machine, that is moving away from

:47:46.:47:50.

the ethos and values that he originally said would mean a change

:47:51.:47:55.

in a way he did his politics. I hope it doesn't reflect his drinking. If

:47:56.:48:00.

it does, not a good way to go. What about the issue of Trident?

:48:01.:48:07.

Glastonbury may be the best place to air your views as well as listen to

:48:08.:48:11.

music! He said he would move to abolish Trident, or the renewal of

:48:12.:48:15.

the missile system, as soon as if he became Prime Minister. Ironically on

:48:16.:48:22.

this, I have a bit of sympathy with Jeremy Corbyn, because it is a huge

:48:23.:48:27.

amount of money... So you are against Labour Party policy? It is a

:48:28.:48:31.

lot of money to spend on the nuclear deterrent, but it is party policy,

:48:32.:48:35.

it has been through conference Aberdeen times, and he has to be

:48:36.:48:42.

committed to that as I am. -- umpteen times. I think you should

:48:43.:48:48.

abide by Labour Party policy, particularly as a leader. He has

:48:49.:48:52.

obviously got zero respect for official Labour Party policy if he's

:48:53.:48:55.

briefing Michael Eavis he will be Prime Minister in six months and get

:48:56.:49:00.

rid of Trident as soon as possible. What was interesting about that is

:49:01.:49:06.

how long is this deal going to last? Time to look at what else is coming

:49:07.:49:09.

up in the week and, we have had a week in one day pretty well today!

:49:10.:49:13.

Later this afternoon, the Prime Minister will present

:49:14.:49:15.

a detailed paper to MPs on her plan for the rights of EU citizens living

:49:16.:49:19.

Tomorrow, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon,

:49:20.:49:22.

will make a speech in London about Brexit.

:49:23.:49:24.

On Wednesday, Theresa May will face Jeremy Corbyn in the first session

:49:25.:49:28.

of Prime Minister's Questions since she lost

:49:29.:49:30.

And on Thursday, MPs will vote on the Queen's Speech,

:49:31.:49:34.

between the Conservatives and the DUP.

:49:35.:49:42.

We're joined now by Anoosh Chakelian from the New Statesman

:49:43.:49:44.

Welcome to both of you, so what do you think of the deal? Well, quite

:49:45.:49:54.

interesting, I think we were expecting vast tranches of money to

:49:55.:49:59.

be shipped over the sea to Northern Ireland, we got a bit of that.

:50:00.:50:07.

Fascinating list, what we were not expecting was just how much the DUP

:50:08.:50:12.

have now ripped up UK Government policy, for example the triple lock

:50:13.:50:18.

and Winter Fuel Payments. By my primitive calculations, that could

:50:19.:50:23.

end up costing the Government ?15 billion. Damian Green has said that

:50:24.:50:26.

they do not know what it will cost over time because they had not made

:50:27.:50:30.

the calculation about which pensioners would be hit if they did

:50:31.:50:34.

take the payments away. Will that be the headline tomorrow? It could be,

:50:35.:50:39.

but we need to look at the ?1.5 billion as a down payment. We don't

:50:40.:50:44.

know how much more money the DUP are going to demand in years to come, so

:50:45.:50:50.

it could be even bigger than that 15 billion. So what about the reaction

:50:51.:50:54.

in the Conservative Party? We spoke earlier about the relief no doubt

:50:55.:51:00.

from the Tories, because they are now able, in theory, to go ahead

:51:01.:51:04.

with their legislative programme. What will it do to talk of

:51:05.:51:11.

leadership? I think it is being looked at by most Tory MPs with

:51:12.:51:15.

severe discomfort, he likes of Stephen Crabb will say, we have got

:51:16.:51:19.

to do this, but privately they will load it, because the DUP are not

:51:20.:51:23.

that type of people. But there is zero alternative, the Government

:51:24.:51:29.

needs MPs, so people like David Cameron have been quick to tweet in

:51:30.:51:32.

support of the deal that has been done, contrary to John Major, who

:51:33.:51:37.

was rather upset by the process. But a lot of private toe sucking, public

:51:38.:51:45.

false friends. What about the power-sharing agreement? If it is

:51:46.:51:48.

restored, Theresa May will be able to point to that as a success. It

:51:49.:51:53.

looks unlikely that they will reach their deadline of Thursday, because

:51:54.:51:57.

they have got so many things they disagreed on. They have not had a

:51:58.:52:01.

First Minister or deputy since January, so they have been grappling

:52:02.:52:05.

over this for a long time, and it is not getting any easier. Just because

:52:06.:52:08.

they have a bit of money coming in does not mean that Sinn Fein are

:52:09.:52:15.

suddenly going to be happy and start playing ball. The EU nationals, we

:52:16.:52:19.

will get more details about that later on, has this whole discussion

:52:20.:52:24.

been too slow about the future of EU nationals? I'm not sure if it has

:52:25.:52:28.

been too fast or too slow, and it looks a very easy interview, just

:52:29.:52:33.

let everyone stay, but when you get to the granular detail, for example,

:52:34.:52:37.

there has been an embargo and Home Office breathers this morning, but

:52:38.:52:40.

we now know a bit more, we cannot tell people until the Prime Minister

:52:41.:52:44.

stands up, but it will be more generous in spirit than came across

:52:45.:52:49.

on Friday, I think. Things like what you do with family reunions, and

:52:50.:52:52.

what sort of prisoners get deported, which was a very small little nugget

:52:53.:53:00.

that David Davis gave us. We will get more of the detail, a little bit

:53:01.:53:03.

more welcomed in Brussels, but back here it will probably turn up a few

:53:04.:53:06.

noses, because it is not what some people thought they were voting for.

:53:07.:53:12.

But it is imperative, it seems the minds of the Tory leadership, to get

:53:13.:53:16.

this done, this bit of the deal. It has been far too slow, this has

:53:17.:53:20.

become an emotional issue, because Theresa May has not done what people

:53:21.:53:24.

are calling for, 3 million people in this country have not told what

:53:25.:53:27.

their fate will be since the referendum result, and we have all

:53:28.:53:36.

of these EU leaders saying they are disappointed by what Theresa May

:53:37.:53:38.

came up with. We saw Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury giving a rousing

:53:39.:53:40.

speech at Glastonbury, he said these people must be part of our

:53:41.:53:43.

community, so I think the damage has been done, really. If the reaction

:53:44.:53:47.

is good from EU leaders, and you seem to imply you think it could be

:53:48.:53:51.

if it is more generous this afternoon, will there be a question

:53:52.:53:54.

of getting on with the rest of the negotiations? I think it will be

:53:55.:53:59.

warmer than from the EU leaders, I do not think they will say it is a

:54:00.:54:04.

done deal, but it must of course be remembered that it was Angela Merkel

:54:05.:54:07.

who blocked getting any early deal for six months before Brexit

:54:08.:54:10.

negotiation begun. But what the Prime Minister needs is she has to

:54:11.:54:16.

show she is able to get something out of them, or she will be gone by

:54:17.:54:23.

conference. Is that right? Not at all! Thank you very much to both of

:54:24.:54:25.

you! Here's just time before we go

:54:26.:54:29.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which of these

:54:30.:54:32.

members of the House of Lords Lord Palmer, Viscount Thurso,

:54:33.:54:35.

the Marquess of Lothian, I am going to take a punt, Sandwich,

:54:36.:54:47.

because he didn't give up his... No, you are wrong!

:54:48.:54:51.

The Marquess of Lothian - the others are elected hereditary peers.

:54:52.:54:54.

Michael Ancram sits in the House of Lords as a life peer,

:54:55.:54:57.

although the Marquess of Lothian is his hereditary title.

:54:58.:54:59.

The Earl of Ancram is the only one of those hereditary peers

:55:00.:55:02.

who didn't get their seat in the House of Lords

:55:03.:55:04.

That's right, they have elections in the House of Lords.

:55:05.:55:08.

92 hereditary peers were allowed to keep their seats in the House

:55:09.:55:12.

of Lords when the rest were kicked out back in 1999, and each time

:55:13.:55:15.

one of those dies or retires, there is a by-election.

:55:16.:55:17.

The voters are fellow hereditary peers,

:55:18.:55:19.

But one Labour life peer, Lord Grocott, wants these

:55:20.:55:22.

by-elections abolished, and he joins us now

:55:23.:55:24.

Why do you want them abolished? You have answered your own question, the

:55:25.:55:32.

whole thing is ridiculous! There are 90 odd hereditary peers, these

:55:33.:55:35.

positions remain in perpetuity, and when one dies or retires, there is a

:55:36.:55:40.

by-election, and the rules of that very according to which hereditary

:55:41.:55:44.

peer has died or retired, and we had one last year where a Liberal

:55:45.:55:50.

Democrat died, and the electorate to replace him in the democratic

:55:51.:55:54.

process consisted of three Liberal Democrat hereditary peers, and there

:55:55.:55:58.

were seven candidates on the ballot paper. So twice as many candidates

:55:59.:56:06.

as you had electors! The sort of election that all politicians would

:56:07.:56:10.

like! It is a world record, and the winning candidate got all three

:56:11.:56:16.

votes. Well done! 100%, pretty good by North Korean standards! Have you

:56:17.:56:21.

got any support for this? There is tremendous support across the House,

:56:22.:56:25.

but I did the same thing last year, and two Conservative hereditary

:56:26.:56:31.

peers Billy busted it out of its further progress in Parliament, and

:56:32.:56:34.

I just hope they have got the sense not to do it again this time,

:56:35.:56:38.

because it is beyond ridiculous. Gilbert and Sullivan would not have

:56:39.:56:42.

dared write something like this, so I hope they see sense, maybe you

:56:43.:56:46.

will invite them on the programme. It is the kind of thing you can do

:56:47.:56:50.

in a private member's bill, try to get rid of a small absurdity. But it

:56:51.:56:55.

still has to be selected and supported, you have mentioned two

:56:56.:56:59.

corroded tree peers, are they really the only block? They are the

:57:00.:57:05.

overwhelming block, putting down 30 of 40 amendments before committee

:57:06.:57:15.

stage. 200 are on the list the last time I checked, and of the 200 on

:57:16.:57:21.

the official list of potential candidates, 199 are men, and there

:57:22.:57:25.

is one woman. Whatever your position is on equality, I think you would

:57:26.:57:29.

probably think that really was pretty absurd in the 21st century. A

:57:30.:57:35.

quick word from my guests, is it time for these by-elections to go?

:57:36.:57:39.

It is a bit of a ridiculous quirk, but the reason we have ended up in

:57:40.:57:43.

this place is because people have only tinkered, and rather than

:57:44.:57:46.

further tinkering, like what is being proposed, we need to sit down,

:57:47.:57:51.

a major overhaul, which will take time and probably be for a future

:57:52.:57:56.

generation. With tinkering at the edges, all worthwhile in its own

:57:57.:58:04.

right? I support Lord Grocott, it is always turkeys for Christmas when it

:58:05.:58:07.

comes to the House of Lords, you never get agreement, we have tried

:58:08.:58:13.

so often. Do the bits, get it slightly more sensible.

:58:14.:58:16.

That is absolutely right, only a small thing, but if it makes the

:58:17.:58:19.

world marginally better in the face of all the things we have to deal

:58:20.:58:23.

with, it won't take very long, let's get on with it. I must say to the

:58:24.:58:29.

viewers, it is the Marquess of Lothian, Michael Ancram, just to get

:58:30.:58:33.

the titles right, I know these things are important!

:58:34.:58:34.

That's all for today, thanks to our guests.

:58:35.:58:40.

An extremely busy and interesting news day!

:58:41.:58:42.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:43.:58:45.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:46.:58:47.

political stories of the day, do join me then, bye-bye.

:58:48.:59:09.

Across the country, 11 million people

:59:10.:59:13.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP and former cabinet minister, Stephen Crabb, and former Labour minister, Margaret Hodge, for the latest news and debate from Westminster, including a possible deal between the Conservatives and the DUP and the latest on the Grenfell Tower investigation.


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