03/07/2017 Daily Politics


03/07/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:40.:00:44.

As Boris Johnson joins the list of ministers calling for the 1%

:00:45.:00:47.

public sector pay cap to be lifted, what price Cabinet

:00:48.:00:50.

And if the cap is lifted, how will it be paid for?

:00:51.:00:54.

Brexit could have big implications for Ireland.

:00:55.:00:56.

We'll be talking to a former ambassador who thinks it shouldn't

:00:57.:00:59.

During the campaign come up my recognition factor is suffered a bit

:01:00.:01:13.

of a setback when a picture of me was mistakenly substituted with a

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And as new MPs line up to make their first contributions

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in the Commons, we'll give them some tips on making the

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And with us for the whole of the programme today,

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two new MPs performing that other important rite of passage

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of life at Westminster - being guests of the day on the Daily

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It's Labour's Sarah Jones, she's the new MP for Croydon Central,

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and the Conservative Bim Afolami, he's the new MP for

:01:42.:01:47.

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has this morning joined the ranks

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of ministers calling on his own government to consider

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lifting the pay cap for many public sector workers.

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But what exactly is the cap, and how many people does it affect?

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Some five million people work in the public sector in the UK -

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A third of them work for the NHS, and another third in education.

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Others work in local government, the police and the armed forces.

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To employ them all costs around ?180 billion a year, just over

:02:23.:02:25.

Public sector employees have seen their pay restricted

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Between 2011 and 2013, pay was frozen for all

:02:31.:02:34.

Since 2013, public sector pay has risen by 1% each year.

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However, some have been earning more - because automatic 'progression

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pay' means they move up the pay scale as they gain experience.

:02:51.:02:54.

The Government currently plans to extend the 1% cap

:02:55.:02:58.

to 2019-20, which is predicted to save around ?5 billion.

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In setting public sector pay, the Government has been

:03:03.:03:06.

following the recommendations of the eight independent pay review

:03:07.:03:08.

They report at different times of year.

:03:09.:03:13.

Pay rates for this year have already been set for all workers,

:03:14.:03:18.

but the Government could yet decide to lift the cap

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Well, we're joined now by Jonathan Cribb,

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from the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

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Many people think it is time to give public sector workers a bigger pay

:03:31.:03:37.

rise. Can you tell us what has been happening broadly the private sector

:03:38.:03:40.

and public sector pay over the last seven years? Yes, there is a

:03:41.:03:45.

relatively simple story that has happened since the recession.

:03:46.:03:52.

Between 2008 and 2011, private sector pay fell in real terms

:03:53.:03:56.

sharply while public sector pay continued to rise at roughly the

:03:57.:03:59.

same rate as it was before the recession. In 2011, private sector

:04:00.:04:04.

pay began to recover and pay restraint was introduced in the

:04:05.:04:10.

public sector. That means when we are sitting here in 2017, public and

:04:11.:04:15.

private sector pay have now grown at roughly the same rate when we look

:04:16.:04:21.

all the way back to 2070 2008 over that 10-year period. When you look

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at public sector pay now, what would the cost be for a rise in line with

:04:27.:04:36.

inflation? If public sector pay was increased in line with inflation for

:04:37.:04:41.

the next two years, that was the proposal for the Liberal Democrat

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Party at the last election. That would cost about ?4.1 billion per

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year in 2019 the extra amount the Government would need to give the

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departments and local government for those departments not have to make

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cuts elsewhere. It pay does not go further than the 1% cap in place at

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the moment, will public sector pay generally fall behind the private

:05:11.:05:15.

sector in the next few years? According to the office for budget

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responsibilities forecast, that was be the case -- the Office for Budget

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Responsibility's forecast. And that could exacerbate recruitment and

:05:28.:05:35.

retention problems in the public sector. Bim, inflation is running at

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2.9%, it is it time to end the 1% pay cut for public sector workers?

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There is definitely a case to be made that the 1% pay cut has been in

:05:50.:05:53.

place for too long. That case has been made, not just by me now and my

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maiden speech on Wednesday, but by several Conservative MPs. The

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question is, where'd we focus that? Is that generally a rise in all

:06:05.:06:09.

areas of the public sector, is it for all public sector workers? I

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would like a focus on the lowest paid public sector workers. Because

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they are the people of greatest need. And it is worth saying that

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public sector pay still is about 13% higher than private sector pay when

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you take the average. Although if you look at a number of graphs, it

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shows private sector pay is overtaking public sector pay broadly

:06:31.:06:39.

speaking. Well, that 30% number is over the last ten, 15 years. Really,

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I think the focus as far as I am concerned is in the lowest paid

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public sector workers if we can do something. If the pay review body

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says the cap should go, would you agree with that? We have to listen

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to the pay review body, that is why we have these bodies. Is it an area

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of weakness for the Government, so says Theresa May's Chief of Staff?

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In the seat Sarah Jones now has taken. Reflecting on the reasons why

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he lost the seat comment you agree with him? He knows he seat better

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than I do. It was an issue that came up in my campaign, in my

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constituency, so it is definitely an issue for the Government. But we

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have to make sure we deal with these things responsibly. Is it

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responsible for Cabinet ministers to publicly make this argument without

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having decided what the overall policy is going to be? I think

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Cabinet ministers, like all Members of Parliament, have their own views

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on a range of different subjects. I'll welcome politics where we can

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discuss views on a range of different subjects. In public? That

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is a reason we are in this programme, the talk in public in

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different areas of policy. You are different to a member of Cabinet,

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there is something called collective responsibility and should people

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like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson be talking about this publicly

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before a decision? I cannot speak about what they have said. Labour

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would scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay, how much of a pay raise

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would you like to see them get? We have to look at the reality on the

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ground in terms of the NHS and teachers. In our campaign, we would

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see time after time people leaving the public sex -- public services

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because they are under huge pressure and not being paid enough. We need

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to listen to what the pay review body say because they are the

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experts, and take a view as to what we can do and what is fiscally

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possible. In our manifesto, we would have taken measures to increase the

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funding we have so I think we need to look at what the pay review body

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says and reflect on the reality we see in hospitals and schools on the

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ground where people need to get paid a decent wage to keep them doing

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those jobs. What is a decent wage the usual words, and your colleague

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Jonathan Ashworth called it a fair Perez, how much? We have seen nurses

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getting about 14% loss in their income so we need to put that up. I

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do not know what that figure should be, I need to listen to the pay

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review bodies. But we do need to see a pay rise. And this is where Labour

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had been talking for many months about this, we need to have a

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conversation, what is the role of the state and providing the public

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services that we need? You said it had to be fiscally responsible as

:09:30.:09:33.

the IFS have estimated that if you were to rise, increase our big

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sector pay in line with the private sector pay, it costs about ?6.3

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billion a year by 2020, rising to ?9.2 billion a year by 2022. Labour

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budgeted for ?4 billion. Can the country afford those sorts of pay

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rises? If you look at the police force and the firemen who went above

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and beyond in the last couple of weeks and months in terms of doing

:10:01.:10:03.

their jobs, we need to give what we can. And you prepared to do 6.3

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billion, 9.2 billion by 2020? I would listen to the pay review

:10:11.:10:14.

bodies and do what we can. We would not be having this conversation if

:10:15.:10:17.

it was not for the Labour Party calling for these things and it is

:10:18.:10:20.

great they are having the same conversation, but we need to look at

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this collectively and sensibly and do what we can. There is a measure

:10:24.:10:28.

of agreement here that the independent pay bodies are important

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and they need to be listened to and I hope that is something possibly we

:10:32.:10:35.

could work on a cross-party and make sure once we listen to those pay

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bodies, then debate. Let's unpack this 1% pay cut. Some people had

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been receiving an annual pay increase of more than 1%. Which is

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noted by the NHS pay review body, 54% of NHS staff in England with

:10:53.:10:58.

Jude to receive pay increments of 3%, 4% on average in 2016-2017 some

:10:59.:11:03.

the cap does not apply across the board. So do you accept that are

:11:04.:11:09.

variations in terms of people being paid more than 1%? Yes, and what I

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said at the beginning, it is really important to focus, I think, in the

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lowest paid public sector workers at the moment. That was also included

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in the freezer and the 1% pay cap and did not apply to those at the

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lowest end, do we not look at those above that. I think you have got to

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look at a range and we could come up with a different definition of the

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lowest paid, but the important point is it is an important is system and

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you have different areas within the public sector and it is eight

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different pay review bodies, or several and we need to listen to

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what all of them say. But the central point is this is definitely

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the time to look again at the 1% and Seve we can lift it. In the timing,

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I do think there is an issue of not leaving people unsure of what is

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happening for the next six months. We have noises about wanting to do

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something, the pressure now from us should we need to do something

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sooner rather than later because there is so much uncertainty. And

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generous pensions in some parts of the public sector should also be

:12:22.:12:25.

looked at in the round when looking at pay? Pensions will always be part

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of the package. But the main point is, the debate and how it is moving

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in to a situation where I think the public and politicians are saying it

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is time to fund these things properly.

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The question for today is: MPs are reportedly worried

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Is it: a) The ghost of former Commons clerk 'Simon Stone'.

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b) The mythical rock which brings MPs good luck.

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c) The extra weight that new MPs gain due to an unhealthy lifestyle.

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Or d) The unusually large pips in apricots in the Commons canteen?

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At the end of the show, Sarah and Bim will give

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is now, in the words of his deputy leader

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Tom Watson, "completely secure" following the party's better

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Mr Watson said at the weekend that meant there was no need to rush

:13:15.:13:19.

through measures that would give members more power in the party's

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ruling body and the right to nominate leadership candidates.

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But does everyone in the Shadow Cabinet agree?

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Here's the Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon, speaking to Andrew

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I do believe that all parties, including the Labour Party, need to

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be made more democratic. We have got membership of well over half a

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million and I would like the members to have more say in our party's

:13:45.:13:49.

policies and in the way the party is run.

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What does he mean by being more democratic? I have been in the

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Labour Party 25 years and I have not met a member of the Labour Party who

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does not have strong views on virtually everything. We have more

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members as well which is fantastic and there is a question about how we

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run the party and how democracy works within the party, so what say

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the people have? In policy-making, the decisions... And should members

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have more say? Yes, there will be a big debate about this over the

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coming months. The key point is, Jeremy Corbyn is our leader and

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enormously popular now and he has done very well in terms of the

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election and that is clear. The slightly different conversation is

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how do we make sure the party runs as democratically as possible? Were

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you a fan of Jeremy Corbyn before the election? I did not vote for

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Jeremy, but he is responsible for my victory, I would say. Election

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campaign was one of the most extraordinary I have ever seen,

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having been in the party for many years. The shift was quite tangible

:14:54.:15:00.

in terms of the opinion of everybody that we would talking to and I think

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the more that we heard from Jeremy and the framing of the debate that

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was him being so clear about what we wanted rather than Theresa May being

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so weak was extraordinary and I think he did very well. Do you agree

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with moves within the party to take the power of electing or selecting

:15:19.:15:22.

the next leader out of the hands of MPs and going

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We haven't got any proposals on the table yet, we will have a debate at

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conference. But do you broadly agree with that? I think absolutely the

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MPs have a huge role to play and the membership has a huge role to play

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and we need to work out the balance and I don't know what that is. But

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would you like to see a lower threshold for nominations for

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leadership candidates? We will be talking about it locally in our

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general committee this week and we will see where we end up, but as I

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said everyone in the Labour Party will have a view about this and we

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will reach some kind of agreement at conference. Your new party chairman

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said Labour is too broad a church, do you agree with him? I don't think

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there's any question about that, all of the major political parties are

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brought a church. We are united, the question is who was in charge of the

:16:28.:16:30.

Conservative Party at the moment, who is running the country and I

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think those questions are to be answered and much more significant.

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Did you think you would be in a position as a new MP where Jeremy

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Corbyn was considered safe and secure in his future but Theresa May

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less so? I expected the Conservative Party would have a majority and it

:16:49.:16:52.

was obviously a very difficult night for us. It's been a difficult week

:16:53.:16:57.

subsequent to the election for us. I think what we are not hearing is

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that actually the divisions within the Labour Party are still deep and

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still quite substantial, in particular around Trident and the

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economic policy that effectively the hard left leadership wants to pursue

:17:12.:17:14.

which a lot of areas of the Labour Party don't want to pursue. But they

:17:15.:17:20.

do have an agreed policy on Trident, yes Jeremy Corbyn doesn't agree but

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there is a settled view. But it is a bit odd if your leader doesn't agree

:17:26.:17:30.

with the party policy. He may look safe and secure now but when we

:17:31.:17:33.

start to see these divisions open up I think he will be less so. Do you

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think mandatory reselection would be a good idea? There's already a

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process where the committee can... Sure, but mandatory reselection? I

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think all of these things need to be discussed. We are much larger party

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than we were, we need to have these conversations but the real question

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is how we will hold to account a government which is very weak, which

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is buying votes. Who was running it, we don't know and that's the real

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issue. The effect of Brexit on Ireland has

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so far focused on what it might mean for the border

:18:09.:18:11.

between Northern Ireland But in a report out today

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for the Policy Exchange think-tank, the former Irish ambassador

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Ray Bassett argues that allowing the EU to negotiate Brexit

:18:21.:18:22.

on Ireland's behalf may be a mistake, and the country

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should even consider Welcome to the programme. Why are

:18:26.:18:33.

you arguing Ireland should leave the single market and the customs union?

:18:34.:18:41.

Because circumstances have changed. Ireland in general wanted the UK to

:18:42.:18:48.

stay inside the EU but now it has changed and the UK are certainly

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leaving the EU, and it looks like they are leaving the single market

:18:53.:18:57.

and Customs union, we have to decide whether our best course is to stick

:18:58.:19:02.

with the remaining 26 or to look at the whole issue of maintaining our

:19:03.:19:06.

customs and free trade with the United Kingdom and may be seeking a

:19:07.:19:13.

new arrangement with the rest of the EU. But what is the best course of

:19:14.:19:20.

action for us. But why would Ireland prioritise the UK with a population

:19:21.:19:24.

of 65 million people over 26 member states with almost 500 million

:19:25.:19:30.

people? Because we have much greater connections with the UK. In a poll

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in Dublin, 56% of people in Ireland polled said they felt the

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relationship with the UK was more important than its relationship with

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the rest of Europe. Ireland and Britain have so many connections

:19:50.:19:52.

it's by far the most important bilateral relationship, so we have

:19:53.:19:55.

got to look, if we break that relationship as part of the EU, what

:19:56.:20:01.

do we get on the other side. The EU was moving in a direction that we

:20:02.:20:07.

don't particularly like. 88% of Irish people polled also believe the

:20:08.:20:15.

UK should stay in the European Union, so are you a lone voice? If

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it came to a choice and there was a hard Brexit most people said they

:20:21.:20:26.

would prefer to see us in an arrangement that didn't break up

:20:27.:20:30.

with the United Kingdom. But why should it break a relationship with

:20:31.:20:34.

Ireland? Ministers have been very keen to stress that relations should

:20:35.:20:41.

remain close with Ireland. Relations should remain closed but if you look

:20:42.:20:48.

at Michel Barnier, their priority with regard to Ireland is that

:20:49.:20:53.

whatever happens with Ireland the outcome must maintain the integrity

:20:54.:20:57.

of the union's legal order, so they are saying there will be customs

:20:58.:21:07.

posts and Ireland will be in the same situation as every other

:21:08.:21:13.

countries. We share the common jurisdiction for hundreds of years.

:21:14.:21:18.

Almost every organisation in Ireland is linked into the UK organisation

:21:19.:21:22.

and we don't know what the final format of Brexit is, but there is a

:21:23.:21:28.

danger the EU would prioritise itself and the maintenance of its

:21:29.:21:33.

integrity over these unique and special relationship between Ireland

:21:34.:21:38.

and Great Britain. But couldn't Ireland benefit from Brexit? It is

:21:39.:21:42.

in the eurozone which has found new confidence if you like following the

:21:43.:21:49.

of Emmanuel Macron. There could be a tightening of the relationships

:21:50.:21:52.

between those countries in the eurozone. Ireland has done well in

:21:53.:21:56.

terms of having one of the lowest corporation rates in the EU whilst

:21:57.:22:01.

still adhering to rules and regulations, so what's not to like

:22:02.:22:06.

for Ireland? You have just touched on it. Emmanuel Macron has picked

:22:07.:22:10.

out Ireland as his target in terms of trying to get a consolidated

:22:11.:22:17.

corporation tax rate, a common tax rate across Europe. There huge

:22:18.:22:21.

pressures coming on Ireland now to raise its tax rate and our biggest

:22:22.:22:25.

ally in doing that along with the Netherlands has been the UK. We will

:22:26.:22:29.

find it difficult to maintain that type of relationship that we had in

:22:30.:22:35.

the past without the UK. OK, Ray Bassett, thank you very much.

:22:36.:22:38.

When an MP speaks for the first time in the Commons after their election

:22:39.:22:41.

It's an opportunity for them to praise their constituency,

:22:42.:22:45.

set out their priorities, and sometimes even raise a smile.

:22:46.:22:47.

Let's have a look at a few of them from recent,

:22:48.:22:50.

It is a very great privilege to be standing here

:22:51.:22:54.

I want to stress that this speech tonight, Mr Deputy Speaker,

:22:55.:22:57.

is not a maiden speech, as I've been specifically instructed

:22:58.:23:00.

by the Speaker that whatever maiden status I may have once possessed

:23:01.:23:03.

It is daunting on these occasions to have members of one's family

:23:04.:23:13.

Worse, I feel, to have them sitting in the chamber.

:23:14.:23:18.

Any increase in aggregate supplementary credit

:23:19.:23:19.

approvals issued will result in an increase in PSBR.

:23:20.:23:22.

We had great generals, like John Churchill,

:23:23.:23:24.

Duke of Marlborough, who was rewarded with

:23:25.:23:25.

Blenheim Palace for his victories in the War of the Spanish

:23:26.:23:28.

As on this side of the House, we settle our own issue

:23:29.:23:38.

of succession, Spanish or otherwise, I can, er...

:23:39.:23:40.

We are now in the ridiculous situation whereby because I am

:23:41.:23:44.

an MP, not only am I the youngest, but I am now also the only 20 year

:23:45.:23:48.

old in the whole of the UK that the Chancellor's prepared

:23:49.:23:51.

When I moved into my new office, on the very first morning

:23:52.:23:55.

I was there, the first telephone call I received, I eagerly

:23:56.:23:58.

picked up the receiver to see who this could be,

:23:59.:24:00.

only to discover that the person on the other end of the line only

:24:01.:24:03.

There is no offsetting effect on PSBR for any notional release

:24:04.:24:09.

The now ageing VC10s which thunder down the runway loaded with fuel

:24:10.:24:15.

for our fighter aircraft are fondly known locally as Prescotts,

:24:16.:24:17.

because they are able to refuel two Jaguars simultaneously.

:24:18.:24:19.

During the campaign, my recognition factor suffered a bit

:24:20.:24:31.

of a setback when one campaign profile mistakenly substituted

:24:32.:24:33.

a picture of me with a photo of a brick wall.

:24:34.:24:35.

We're joined now by the Labour MP Paul Flynn.

:24:36.:24:47.

He's written a book about how to be an MP.

:24:48.:24:50.

Do you remember what you said in your maiden speech? I followed the

:24:51.:24:57.

precept of don't change the speech, change the audience, so I made a

:24:58.:25:01.

speech I have done a hundred times before with a good opening line and

:25:02.:25:04.

a good finishing line and as short a period as possible in between the

:25:05.:25:11.

two. That's when you did yours, would you still give that advice as

:25:12.:25:16.

the main components to new MPs? Yes, you have to stick to the ritual

:25:17.:25:20.

because it's a terrifying experience. They go from the fear,

:25:21.:25:24.

and you longer you put off the hurdle the higher it becomes. You

:25:25.:25:29.

have the fear beforehand and the joy afterwards of having done it. There

:25:30.:25:32.

have been some wonderful maiden speeches over the years. Stephen

:25:33.:25:37.

Pound actually ran down his constituency, couldn't find anything

:25:38.:25:40.

good to say about it except an elephant died their 100 years ago

:25:41.:25:49.

and the elephant was so embarrassed by dying there he crawled over the

:25:50.:25:53.

boundary to do it, a very funny speech. We have seen remarkable

:25:54.:25:56.

maiden speeches of people who have made a great impression. The MP for

:25:57.:26:02.

North West Durham made a very impassioned speech that went on to

:26:03.:26:10.

make a hit on the web as well but it was based on her experience as a

:26:11.:26:19.

worker in the mental health... And the new member of Kensington was

:26:20.:26:23.

brilliant, faced with this awful calamity and she combined that and

:26:24.:26:27.

spoke with great authority, pointing out there are many poor people, poor

:26:28.:26:38.

children in Kensington as there are in Lanark. You have been through it,

:26:39.:26:47.

was it frightening, Bim? Yes it was beforehand, but this is testament to

:26:48.:26:51.

more senior colleagues, people really want you to do well. So you

:26:52.:26:56.

feel they are wanting you to succeed. They laugh at your

:26:57.:27:00.

admittedly not terribly funny jokes and that gives you that confidence

:27:01.:27:08.

which then allows you to go for it. The speaker congratulated you on

:27:09.:27:11.

your maiden speech, I have never heard of it before. Unique, I think.

:27:12.:27:20.

There you go! And what was the main thrust of your speech? I talked

:27:21.:27:25.

about my predecessor, Peter Lilley, the I talked about my constituency

:27:26.:27:29.

and constituents, and the I talked about education and how important it

:27:30.:27:36.

was, important for a 21st-century skill -based economy, then I talked

:27:37.:27:45.

about a just society at the end. I haven't written mine yet, it gets

:27:46.:27:55.

more scary as I go. I have ask two questions and that was scary enough.

:27:56.:28:02.

When do you do it? You write to the speaker and ask, and choose a

:28:03.:28:08.

particular debate. Anything in it that you know you will say already?

:28:09.:28:14.

Education will be a huge part of it and my responsibilities as an MP of

:28:15.:28:17.

course. There's just time before we go

:28:18.:28:20.

to find out the answer to our quiz. MPs are reportedly worried

:28:21.:28:23.

about the Westminster stone. A) The ghost of former

:28:24.:28:26.

Commons clerk 'Simon Stone' b) A mythical rock that

:28:27.:28:38.

brings luck c) The extra weight that new MPs gain

:28:39.:28:40.

or d) The large apricot So, Sarah and Bim, what's

:28:41.:28:43.

the correct answer? C, the extra weight

:28:44.:28:46.

new MPs are said to gain That's all for today.

:28:47.:28:49.

Thanks to our guests. I'll be back with all

:28:50.:28:53.

the big political stories of the day tomorrow,

:28:54.:28:55.

and we're on at the earlier time of 11am again because of Wimbledon -

:28:56.:28:57.

do join me then.

:28:58.:29:01.

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