14/07/2017 Daily Politics


14/07/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Fraser Nelson and Anoosh Chakelian. Following Theresa May's first year as prime minister they look ahead to what the coming year might look like.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:41.

She's been Prime Minister for a year, and what a year it's been.

:00:42.:00:44.

So what does the next 12 months have in store for Theresa May?

:00:45.:00:48.

And can the Government do all the things it wants to do?

:00:49.:00:52.

Train drivers on Southern Rail vote for fresh strikes

:00:53.:00:54.

Meanwhile, the Transport Secretary accuses Labour of colluding

:00:55.:00:59.

with the unions to bring misery to passengers.

:01:00.:01:06.

Jeremy Corbyn is as likely to be seen addressing big

:01:07.:01:08.

rallies, as he is wondering through the corridors of power.

:01:09.:01:11.

But do street protests really bring about political change?

:01:12.:01:15.

And, as the French President welcomes his American

:01:16.:01:18.

counterpart on Bastille Day, we speak to a leading French

:01:19.:01:22.

politician about the rise of Emmanuel Macron, Brexit

:01:23.:01:24.

and the future of Anglo-French relations.

:01:25.:01:32.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration

:01:33.:01:36.

a double act to rival May and Corbyn, Barnier and Davis,

:01:37.:01:39.

That's Fraser Nelson, editor of The Spectator,

:01:40.:01:46.

and Anoosh Chakelian, from The New Statesman -

:01:47.:01:48.

So, it's the end of the week in which Theresa May celebrated,

:01:49.:01:55.

if that's the right word, her first twelve months

:01:56.:01:57.

It hasn't exactly gone to plan, understatement of the year. Nothing

:01:58.:02:10.

has gone to plan for her for the last four or five months. But she's

:02:11.:02:14.

still here which is more than people thought on election night. We all

:02:15.:02:20.

know that she is going to resign, unlike Gordon Brown who we thought

:02:21.:02:24.

would hang on, everyone knows she will walk the plank at some point

:02:25.:02:28.

but nobody knows who will succeed her. Until the party makes up its

:02:29.:02:36.

mind, she will stay. She is like an undead Prime Minister, it's very

:02:37.:02:41.

strange. When do you think the walking the plank will be? If we

:02:42.:02:46.

take that view. She's given herself a few years. I think she might be

:02:47.:02:49.

right. We don't know the exact deadline. Her weakness is keeping

:02:50.:02:56.

her in place. No Conservative MP wants to destabilise things when

:02:57.:03:03.

Jeremy Corbyn is at a high, partly because of Theresa May's weakness.

:03:04.:03:11.

Would it be better to admin that it was a mistake to call an election? I

:03:12.:03:16.

don't think anybody thinks it was the right decision. She might have

:03:17.:03:20.

meant that if things went a planet might have been a good decision but

:03:21.:03:24.

it was obviously the biggest self-inflicted wound in the history

:03:25.:03:29.

of the Conservative Party. She has probably inflicted more damage on

:03:30.:03:37.

party then anybody since Tony Blair. What have we learnt about politics

:03:38.:03:44.

in the last few months? That you shouldn't take anything for granted.

:03:45.:03:49.

As soon as you start attacking someone, personal attacks like in

:03:50.:03:53.

the campaign, the public can react differently and it might backfire.

:03:54.:04:00.

Should there have been more of a mea culpa? She said that she shared a

:04:01.:04:06.

tear, which for her is a big deal and then she claimed that she

:04:07.:04:10.

immediately thought of the message that the electorate had sent. There

:04:11.:04:15.

was no sense of that. It was a staged mea culpa. A lesser Prime

:04:16.:04:19.

Minister would have quit and walk away as David Cameron did after the

:04:20.:04:26.

Brexit foe. She is sticking with it because she feels a sense of duty to

:04:27.:04:31.

the party and she deserves credit for that. Sense of duty is

:04:32.:04:34.

important. She is the great survivor. Of course, her decision to

:04:35.:04:40.

stand for the leadership in the first place was quite brave. Nobody

:04:41.:04:46.

wanted to inherit a Brexit negotiations. But she had felt for a

:04:47.:04:51.

while that she could become leader. Brexit negotiations, if we go back

:04:52.:04:55.

to Lancaster house and that speech, is it going to continue to be a

:04:56.:05:02.

template? I think so. The Lancaster house speech was a very persuasive

:05:03.:05:07.

template. Only 12 weeks ago, we were looking at the local election

:05:08.:05:12.

results and everything she did seem to have been vindicated. We have

:05:13.:05:16.

learned how quickly politics can shift and certainties vanish. What

:05:17.:05:22.

does it say about support? That it is very soft and flaky on both

:05:23.:05:27.

sides? And things can change. It's almost as though the Conservatives

:05:28.:05:32.

prospects have flipped over and reflect what Labour was suffering

:05:33.:05:36.

before the election. It could flick over again. Is she human now? She is

:05:37.:05:45.

never going to be a great raconteur with her emotions on her sleeve. The

:05:46.:05:50.

public see her for what she is, someone who works very hard with a

:05:51.:05:55.

huge sense of duty but finds it hard to say, come and be my friend. Other

:05:56.:06:00.

politicians do that. It doesn't matter because she won't be standing

:06:01.:06:02.

for election again. So, Theresa May's second year

:06:03.:06:05.

in Downing Street is now underway. If you believe Jeremy Corbyn -

:06:06.:06:08.

then the government is clapped out and he'll have her job

:06:09.:06:11.

before Christmas. But allies of the Prime Minister

:06:12.:06:12.

say that she can carry on for years. So, if you'll excuse the

:06:13.:06:16.

naval metaphor, let's take a look at what's in the offing

:06:17.:06:18.

for Theresa May's government A top priority is of course

:06:19.:06:20.

to sail the ship of state Face-to-face talks between

:06:21.:06:26.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis and the EU's Chief Negotiator

:06:27.:06:32.

will resume this Monday. Yesterday, the government

:06:33.:06:36.

introduced the Repeal Bill, this will overturn the 1972

:06:37.:06:41.

legislation that took the UK into the Common Market and also

:06:42.:06:45.

convert EU law into UK law. The opposition parties are keen

:06:46.:06:50.

to amend and oppose the bill - the Liberal Democrat leader

:06:51.:06:53.

Tim Farron even said that the passage of the bill

:06:54.:06:56.

will be "hell" for the government. And there are seven other bills

:06:57.:06:59.

related to Brexit on the horizon - in particular, the Customs Bill,

:07:00.:07:02.

the Immigration Bill In the autumn, the Chancellor Philip

:07:03.:07:04.

Hammond will present his He'll be under pressure to yield

:07:05.:07:11.

to calls for him to end the 1% cap But the government's

:07:12.:07:17.

economic strategy got a boost from the independent Office

:07:18.:07:22.

for Budget Responsibility yesterday. The fiscal watchdog suggested

:07:23.:07:26.

that ending austerity and increasing spending could pose a "significant

:07:27.:07:29.

risk" to the public finances. And in the Queen's Speech we got

:07:30.:07:34.

a sense of the other priorities of the government -

:07:35.:07:46.

including a consultation on social care, an industrial strategy

:07:47.:07:48.

to boost growth and a review Joining me now is Conservative MP,

:07:49.:07:50.

Kwasi Kwarteng, who is Parliamentary Private Secretary

:07:51.:07:54.

to the Chancellor Philip Hammond. And from Middlesbrough we are joined

:07:55.:08:02.

by Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald. Hell for the government?

:08:03.:08:09.

Parliamentary guerrilla warfare. What are you going to do about it?

:08:10.:08:16.

Tim Farron has his own agenda and he was the leader of a campaign that

:08:17.:08:21.

didn't do very well. Both the Conservative Party and the Labour

:08:22.:08:25.

Party are committed to Brexit. I think we can get a decent majority

:08:26.:08:30.

for repealing the European Community zag across the house. It'll be

:08:31.:08:34.

difficult but I think we can do that. I think Tim Farron is not

:08:35.:08:38.

reflecting the mood of the House of Commons. He has 12 MPs, he resigned

:08:39.:08:43.

because he did so badly and I don't think he's in a position to talk

:08:44.:08:47.

about guerrilla warfare. I think we will be able to get things through.

:08:48.:08:55.

The fact that he is promising it, against a backdrop of the Article 50

:08:56.:09:01.

legislation, knowing that there are a group of Conservative MPs looking

:09:02.:09:06.

to oppose a bill like a rip your bill at least with amendments to it.

:09:07.:09:12.

That might make life very difficult and water down the bill. Do you

:09:13.:09:18.

accept that? We had about nine votes over the Article 50 legislation.

:09:19.:09:22.

I've never seen anything like it. If you look at the division nose and

:09:23.:09:26.

saw the Conservative rebels, there were very few of them. The

:09:27.:09:31.

majorities we secured were much more safe than people anticipated. I

:09:32.:09:35.

agree that the situation now is more difficult but I'd be such prize to

:09:36.:09:39.

see the number of rebels that I've read about. I don't think it would

:09:40.:09:45.

be as many as 15. The party is quite united and determined to see us

:09:46.:09:57.

through this process. But not without amendments, changes,

:09:58.:09:59.

frustration in the Bills. You only have to look at the opposition.

:10:00.:10:02.

Labour have promised to amend it. We've got the Liberal Democrats and

:10:03.:10:07.

the SNP saying similar things. 15 MPs is not a massive number. The

:10:08.:10:11.

odds are stacked against you. I don't think it is as high as 15 and

:10:12.:10:16.

I've given the reasons why. You assume that the opposition is united

:10:17.:10:21.

but we know that there are Labour MPs who voted for Brexit and people

:10:22.:10:26.

like Caroline Flint who don't want freedom of movement and are

:10:27.:10:30.

representing constituencies where the majority voted to leave. I don't

:10:31.:10:35.

think it's as simple as you suggest. Let's ask Andy McDonald on the

:10:36.:10:39.

Labour side, welcome to the programme, talking on the repeal

:10:40.:10:43.

bill specifically, you are asking for a whole range of concessions.

:10:44.:10:47.

The government probably won't give you everything that you want. In all

:10:48.:10:51.

likelihood, are you just going to vote against the repeal Bill? I

:10:52.:10:57.

think we'll be voting for our amendments but I think the principle

:10:58.:11:02.

of the repeal bill is accepted but it's up on what terms and what comes

:11:03.:11:08.

afterwards. We've set out very clearly, embracing David Davis's own

:11:09.:11:12.

words of the exact same benefits and making sure that we are still

:11:13.:11:19.

parties to important European organisations that have served as

:11:20.:11:22.

well and it's absolutely imperative that we do not throw the baby out

:11:23.:11:26.

with the bath water and we don't throw away 40 years of benefits. Are

:11:27.:11:34.

those red lines? For Labour. If you listen to Keir Starmer, who is

:11:35.:11:37.

shadowing on the Brexit side for Labour, they want to see the

:11:38.:11:40.

incorporation of the European Charter of fundamental rights, that

:11:41.:11:46.

means that you can't vote for the repeal bill as it stands. We will

:11:47.:11:51.

see. I think we've got to have pragmatic and sensible approach to

:11:52.:11:58.

this. What does that mean? Theresa May obviously recognises the

:11:59.:12:01.

weakness of her own position and is trying to reach out to other parties

:12:02.:12:06.

to help her out. That, for me, signals that there is some sense

:12:07.:12:09.

that there is going to be some element of compromise. On what,

:12:10.:12:16.

though? That's too early for me to say. The bill was published

:12:17.:12:22.

yesterday. But we've heard Keir Starmer on the European Charter of

:12:23.:12:25.

fundamental rights. Is that a red line for Keir Starmer and Labour? He

:12:26.:12:34.

will make that clear. I'm not going to step into his shoes and say that

:12:35.:12:41.

or not. We need pragmatic views on what can be achieved so we don't

:12:42.:12:46.

leave the European Union and the impact of it making our people much

:12:47.:12:51.

worse off. We've got to give people the chance to make some progress on

:12:52.:12:53.

these hugely important areas for hours. To start shouting the odds at

:12:54.:12:59.

this stage, I'm afraid, that's where the Tories got into difficulties in

:13:00.:13:04.

the first place by having such an intransigence of view with their

:13:05.:13:07.

European partners, rather than saying let's negotiate. Let's put

:13:08.:13:14.

that to Kwasi. We don't know exactly the areas that they are going to try

:13:15.:13:18.

and change and amend but they are obviously going to try and do it. If

:13:19.:13:22.

we look at the European Charter of fundamental rights, would you have

:13:23.:13:27.

way on that? That's way above my pay grade. Let's look at the actual bill

:13:28.:13:33.

and see what the amendments are. The fact is, to say that the opposition

:13:34.:13:39.

is completely united is false. We saw Chuka Umunna put down an

:13:40.:13:43.

amendment and 49 Labour MPs voted in favour of that. A large portion of

:13:44.:13:50.

the party didn't. Before you move on, I want a savoury clearly that

:13:51.:13:54.

you've got a very simplified picture of the parliamentary arithmetic and

:13:55.:13:58.

there are splits on the Labour side and I think the Conservative Party

:13:59.:14:01.

is more united than you have assumed and I think we'll be able to get

:14:02.:14:05.

something out of it. Let's talk about the Labour dilemma. It is true

:14:06.:14:13.

that Caroline Flint is very keen to emphasise to you and other Labour

:14:14.:14:17.

colleagues that the party must stick with what it promised which is

:14:18.:14:22.

leaving the single market because you promised to end freedom of

:14:23.:14:26.

movement and leave PE you in the way that her constituents would like to

:14:27.:14:31.

see. That is at complete odds with the constituents of Keir Starmer or

:14:32.:14:41.

Jeremy Kyle Britain or -- or Jeremy Kyle been all Emily Thornberry. How

:14:42.:14:49.

can you satisfy both? The vote was very close. The discussion has two B

:14:50.:14:54.

about securing the benefits of the single market is as David Davies

:14:55.:15:00.

pointed out. If it comes to freedom of movement, we accept that goes if

:15:01.:15:05.

you leave the single market. What comes in its place? It is the

:15:06.:15:08.

ability to look at migration and have a policy that serves the

:15:09.:15:13.

economy in our interests. We can do that very sensibly. It doesn't mean

:15:14.:15:18.

pulling up the drawbridge. It means having an active immigration policy

:15:19.:15:21.

where people are welcomed into our country to help as in the areas

:15:22.:15:26.

where we need their skills and abilities. A very sensible attitude.

:15:27.:15:33.

I will bring in Andy McDonald. How difficult is this going to be for

:15:34.:15:40.

both parties to pull off? The problems are similar, all of them

:15:41.:15:46.

have MPs who represent constituents who would rather stay in for

:15:47.:15:50.

financial or cultural reasons and they have constituents who voted to

:15:51.:15:56.

leave. Kwasi talk about Labour being divided. It is divide on Brexit,

:15:57.:16:02.

but, what it is united in, is make things as difficult as possible for

:16:03.:16:06.

a very weak Government and the Tories shown underest mate that. Is

:16:07.:16:11.

the Repeal Bill going to be the place where that opposition is going

:16:12.:16:16.

to come to the fore, the fight against the Conservatives and in

:16:17.:16:19.

some people's minds the fight against Brexit. It is an opportunity

:16:20.:16:23.

for Labour to try to make common cause of Tory rebel, it doesn't

:16:24.:16:27.

matter if it is about the EU or parking fine, anything, you would

:16:28.:16:31.

take a chance to inflict a defeat, or think of something nobody thought

:16:32.:16:36.

of before, the provision of abortion for women in Northern Ireland, you

:16:37.:16:40.

take something like that and try and get a concession, the repeal bill is

:16:41.:16:45.

misnamed. It is not the great any more. It is taking regulation and

:16:46.:16:51.

making it into British law. It's the great regulation bill if you like.

:16:52.:16:54.

Because there is so much it creates opportunities to embarrass is

:16:55.:16:58.

Government. Before we move on, what is more important do you and your

:16:59.:17:02.

Labour colleague, getting rid of this Conservative Government, or

:17:03.:17:04.

seeing through the Brexit negotiations? Well, both. They are

:17:05.:17:11.

both important. But... You might use the Brexit negotiation to get rid of

:17:12.:17:15.

this Government? Well, I mean, Theresa May thought she was going to

:17:16.:17:19.

have this massive mandate for her to do as she wish, and that is not

:17:20.:17:23.

going to happen. She knows that, that is why she is in difficulty.

:17:24.:17:26.

Not bringing anything to the floor of the House of Commons because she

:17:27.:17:29.

knows she have the Dell's own job to progress anything. We will be acting

:17:30.:17:34.

in the best interests of country and making sure we get the best possible

:17:35.:17:37.

bill we can and it addresses the needs of our people. For goodness'

:17:38.:17:41.

sake, what else should we do? Let us move on to the economy, Philip

:17:42.:17:46.

Hammond will give his autumn budget, if you are going to listen to some

:17:47.:17:50.

of the voices inside the Cabinet, and other Tory backbenchers, who are

:17:51.:17:55.

asking for the 1% public sector pay cap to be lifted, is that something

:17:56.:18:00.

you can support. Certainly we won't rewrite the budget half way through

:18:01.:18:02.

the year, there will be a budgetary event as you suggested. We have had

:18:03.:18:09.

discussion about pay cap. I don't have any idea what will be in the

:18:10.:18:13.

budget. It was important the Government held the line. Deficit

:18:14.:18:17.

reduction is important, people understand that, we have done a

:18:18.:18:21.

long, very well in that, over the last seven year, it has gone from 50

:18:22.:18:25.

billion to 50 billion. That is important, and the idea that if a

:18:26.:18:28.

Labour Government came in, we would see further progress on this, is not

:18:29.:18:34.

correct. It is fanciful. The IFS have said that Labour's plans would

:18:35.:18:39.

cost ?100 billion more, would add to the deficit. ?100 billion oh the

:18:40.:18:42.

course of a five year Parliament. That is a lot of money, a lot of

:18:43.:18:49.

debt. The Office for Budget Responsibility suggested that

:18:50.:18:52.

fatigue and increased spending could post a significant risk to the

:18:53.:18:57.

public finance, does that not mow blow a hole your economic argument?

:18:58.:19:03.

At least we set out with some, in some detail what our spending plans

:19:04.:19:07.

w and where the money would come from, we heard nothing from the Tory

:19:08.:19:11.

party, and look, they missed their target, they have done since 2010

:19:12.:19:16.

and they keep putting them back. I am asking about your economic

:19:17.:19:21.

argument, because if the Office for Budget Responsibility is saying that

:19:22.:19:26.

spending to, if you like, mitigate the effects of austerity and

:19:27.:19:29.

increasing spending are going to pose a significant risk particularly

:19:30.:19:33.

with some the uncertainties round Brexit, is that a responsible

:19:34.:19:36.

economic argument for Labour to be putting forward? Well is it really

:19:37.:19:42.

responsible to have a plan where by our nurses are going, working flat

:19:43.:19:46.

out, an not having sufficient money to get through the week, where

:19:47.:19:53.

families are ?1400 a year worse off, as a result of austerity, while

:19:54.:19:56.

giving the tax breaks to the very very richest in our society. There

:19:57.:20:01.

is something morally bankrupt about that and there has to be a better

:20:02.:20:05.

distribution of the wealth of nation. Let me put that to Kwasi.

:20:06.:20:11.

Morally bankrupt he say, isn't the proof in the pudding the result of

:20:12.:20:15.

the election, because you are not listening, to the public, when it

:20:16.:20:19.

comes to things like pay, and cost of living and look at rates of

:20:20.:20:24.

inflation, hitting 3%, squeeze on people's pay now, you know, it is a

:20:25.:20:31.

big cut, the average pay is about 1.8% pay rise, 3% inflation, people

:20:32.:20:35.

can't afford, things in the way they could. You need to change your

:20:36.:20:39.

policy S Three things to that. If you look at the economic management

:20:40.:20:43.

we have had since 2010. We have reduced the deficit by two thirds. I

:20:44.:20:47.

am talking about now. It is is a broader debate. If we don't have a

:20:48.:20:53.

decent economy, people will suffer far more, than if we have a well run

:20:54.:20:56.

economy, that is self evident. That is self evident. People are

:20:57.:21:00.

saying... If we look at the alternative, we have the record

:21:01.:21:05.

numbers of. Employment, the lowest unemployment rate 40 year, we have

:21:06.:21:09.

reduced the deficit by two-third and we have over the last seven years on

:21:10.:21:14.

the compounded annual basis we have grown faster than every other

:21:15.:21:18.

country in Europe. How do you... I am establishing with you, I

:21:19.:21:21.

understand that. This is a God record. We accept that there are

:21:22.:21:26.

difficulties in terms of rising living costs, but, what I would say

:21:27.:21:32.

is the alternative f you go down a Labour route you will increase the

:21:33.:21:38.

debt, you will increase you could increase inflation, and you could

:21:39.:21:41.

increase interest rates and that would be very damaging to people on

:21:42.:21:47.

lower incomes. Andy McDonald? That is ludicrous, more pain to inflict

:21:48.:21:51.

on the most vulnerable and worse off in society. I will challenge Kwasi

:21:52.:21:55.

to come to my constituency and come into some of the territories where

:21:56.:21:59.

people are really suffering on this Tory regime. They are having the

:22:00.:22:03.

toughest of times and yet we sit back and think this all in the

:22:04.:22:08.

garden is Rosie, it isn't. For many millions in the country and for him

:22:09.:22:12.

to suggest this is a success story, I would hate to see what failure

:22:13.:22:16.

would look like, this has been a miserable time for thousands and

:22:17.:22:19.

millions of people, right across this land and it is about time the

:22:20.:22:24.

Tories woke up to that. There is a huge outpouring and embracing of

:22:25.:22:27.

Labour's message to say we can order society in a totally different way

:22:28.:22:31.

and we cannot simply go on pandering to the richest in oat who can afford

:22:32.:22:35.

to pay a little more. A quick response, we were told you are not

:22:36.:22:39.

deaf as a government. Frazer will know the richest 1% are paying more

:22:40.:22:45.

as a proportion of tax. Is that making nurses feel better or

:22:46.:22:48.

teachers feel better about the cost of living? Something I have accepted

:22:49.:22:52.

the cost of living is an issue, we have address it with regards to the

:22:53.:22:55.

personal allowance, we more than doubled that. The wait you pay tax

:22:56.:23:00.

is higher now, than was ever the case in the past. Thank you both

:23:01.:23:04.

very much. Briefly, is this where the argument is going to be putting

:23:05.:23:08.

Brexit to one side slightly, looking at the economic tussle between the

:23:09.:23:12.

two parties? Yes it will be about fairness. The Tories have a strong

:23:13.:23:18.

story to tell. Look at whose incomes have gone up, whose have gone done.

:23:19.:23:22.

It is richest whose incomes have fallen the most. The Conservatives

:23:23.:23:27.

have been progressive. Those at the bottom have been protected. Is that

:23:28.:23:33.

how you see? It The argument for austerity has been dropped. She

:23:34.:23:38.

didn't make it a priority so it is difficult for them to bring it back

:23:39.:23:42.

to the top of the agenda again. Thank owe both P

:23:43.:23:43.

Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn met the EU's Brexit negotiator in Brussels

:23:44.:23:48.

and to get into his good books he gave him an Arsenal shirt.

:23:49.:23:51.

So our question for today is, what was written on the back?

:23:52.:23:53.

or d) Seumas, I'm not sure this is a great idea.

:23:54.:24:09.

At the end of the show Fraser and Anoosh

:24:10.:24:11.

With we are saying goodbye to Kwasi Kwarteng.

:24:12.:24:21.

Train drivers on Southern Rail have voted for fresh

:24:22.:24:23.

strikes over the summer, after rejecting a pay

:24:24.:24:25.

Govia Thameslink had offered staff a four-year pay deal worth nearly

:24:26.:24:28.

But the drivers' union Aslef has announced three days of strikes

:24:29.:24:34.

at the start of August, after its members voted

:24:35.:24:36.

Meanwhile, the Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, has announced

:24:37.:24:41.

a ?13 million fine for the train company for the disruption

:24:42.:24:44.

And in the Commons yesterday, he also took aim at the Labour Party.

:24:45.:24:49.

Let's be clear about what's been done today, I have, for months,

:24:50.:24:52.

said the problems on this railway are not purely down to industrial

:24:53.:24:57.

But, I'm also very clear, Mr Speaker, and so is Chris Gibb's

:24:58.:25:01.

report, that the prime responsibility for the trouble

:25:02.:25:03.

on that network in the last few months has come from trade unions,

:25:04.:25:06.

fighting the battles of 30 years ago, and still they get support

:25:07.:25:09.

from the Labour Party, and the reality is it is

:25:10.:25:12.

the Labour Party and the unions colluding to bring trouble

:25:13.:25:14.

Well, Andy McDonald is still with us - he was opposite Chris Grayling

:25:15.:25:23.

And from Tunbridge Wells we're joined by Conservative MP

:25:24.:25:26.

Huw Merriman, who represents the Bexhill and Battle

:25:27.:25:28.

We did ask Aslef - the train drivers' union -

:25:29.:25:31.

if anyone was available for interview, but no one was.

:25:32.:25:40.

Delighted you are here. We heard Chris Grayling saying Labour was

:25:41.:25:46.

colluded with the union over this industrial action, do you support

:25:47.:25:51.

the industrial action? That is not true. And if Chris Grayling has any

:25:52.:25:58.

evidence of this terrible lie he is trying to perpetuate, let him come

:25:59.:26:02.

forward with it. He makes it up. It is not true there has been that sort

:26:03.:26:06.

of discussion with the trade unions at all. Do you support the

:26:07.:26:11.

industrial action though? Well, I support passengers in their bid to

:26:12.:26:16.

have a railway that is safe, and secure and accessible. You do

:26:17.:26:22.

support the industrial action It find it staggering that the Tories

:26:23.:26:26.

are prepared to compromise on safety when it is clear we need a second

:26:27.:26:31.

member of crew on that, every train, who is critically trained in safety.

:26:32.:26:36.

We have seen evidence of it, look at the Watford issue months ago, driver

:26:37.:26:40.

incapacitated, who led the passengers safely away from that

:26:41.:26:46.

train? It was the guard. And these people are talking about taking

:26:47.:26:50.

guards off trains and having them depart stations without that safety

:26:51.:26:53.

critical person onboard. It is plain. It is a dangerous game. I

:26:54.:26:59.

want and answer, do you support the industrial actionsome I do support

:27:00.:27:04.

the industrial action, because it is standing up for passengers, for

:27:05.:27:08.

safety, for accessibility, these are things that we all should be

:27:09.:27:11.

standing up for, instead of compromising on it and putting

:27:12.:27:15.

people at risk. I wish Tories would wake up and realise that is what the

:27:16.:27:20.

people want, and it isn't beyond the wit to Rossiter a train to make sure

:27:21.:27:24.

that it is properly staffed, in terms of not only driver, which they

:27:25.:27:30.

can't do because they didn't recruit enough or assess what was available,

:27:31.:27:34.

and making sure that second critical person is onboard. Right. It is is a

:27:35.:27:40.

simple matter. You don't care about passenger safety Hugh merry man? I

:27:41.:27:45.

do. I commute from East Sussex to Parliament, so of course I care

:27:46.:27:49.

about my safety and my constituent, this strike is about a rejection of

:27:50.:27:53.

a pay rise, this is not a strike based on the technology, that is the

:27:54.:27:58.

overtime ban, so for Andy McDonald to talk about whether it is morally

:27:59.:28:04.

wrong for people to be given big pay rises versus 1% for nurses and not

:28:05.:28:11.

condemn a strike with a 23% pay rise has been reject is hypocrisy. It

:28:12.:28:16.

isn't just about safety it is about pay rise, why should Aslef go on

:28:17.:28:22.

strike when they have rejected a 24% pay rise taking salaries from

:28:23.:28:29.

?39,000 to 60,000? Well, you have to get the detail of that, this

:28:30.:28:32.

franchise... That is a massive pay rise. Hang on, hang on, it

:28:33.:28:38.

predicated on the basis that people work their overtime, days off, do we

:28:39.:28:41.

sensibly want to have a railway system that is run where people are

:28:42.:28:45.

working six and seven days a week? This is crazy. As far, hang on, let

:28:46.:28:51.

us be clear about what was being offered, because as I understand it,

:28:52.:28:57.

the pay offer would have taken the base salary, from 39,000 to just

:28:58.:29:01.

over 60,000, for the existing 35 hour week, four days a week.

:29:02.:29:07.

Well, you are going to have to have Aslef come on and give you their

:29:08.:29:12.

details. It is not a seven day week, which is what you said? The basis if

:29:13.:29:17.

you are running a railway on overtime, how mad is that? You

:29:18.:29:21.

should have enough people properly employed to do the proper working

:29:22.:29:26.

week and not rely on people to turn up. Chris Gibbs said so, if you, the

:29:27.:29:31.

Gibb report says a so. Let us go back to Hugh, because there was

:29:32.:29:36.

overwhelming support for rejecting that pay rise, so if there was

:29:37.:29:40.

overwhelming support for it, the grievances must be big. We have to

:29:41.:29:45.

be clear, this rejection has been on pay, the overtime ban that is in

:29:46.:29:49.

place is about the technology, so this is purely about pay. And it

:29:50.:29:53.

can't be right when pay is only going up by 1.8% that a 24% pay rise

:29:54.:29:59.

can be rejected. I would urge the drivers to think about my

:30:00.:30:03.

constituents, commuters who are not earning like like this doing more

:30:04.:30:08.

than 35 hours a week and can't get to work and are losing their jobs

:30:09.:30:11.

for their commute, or not seeing their families. Families. It is

:30:12.:30:16.

fair. Andy McDonald needs to think about all worker, that may belong to

:30:17.:30:20.

a use one that subsidises the Labour Party.

:30:21.:30:24.

What about the company? Do they not take responsibility for the

:30:25.:30:32.

appalling service that they have put out on a daily basis? They have just

:30:33.:30:39.

been penalised by ?13 million, their share under the contract for

:30:40.:30:44.

cancellations. What's been made clear under the independent report

:30:45.:30:48.

is the primary cause of the appalling performance has actually

:30:49.:30:52.

been the unions. The ?13 million is a small proportion of the blame, the

:30:53.:30:57.

big proportion lies with the unions for going on strike where they can't

:30:58.:31:03.

justify it. The new technology has been deemed safe. Its on-board on

:31:04.:31:07.

13% of the network and has for decades. The unions reject that and

:31:08.:31:14.

have rejected it continuously. I hosted a debate not long ago where

:31:15.:31:18.

the whole safety argument was challenged. By the unions

:31:19.:31:23.

continually in the way that Andy Macdonald has stated. Until that is

:31:24.:31:27.

resolved, those actions are going to continue. I was one of the people

:31:28.:31:34.

there. At that stage, the unions were demanding that the independent

:31:35.:31:38.

rail safety regulator gave his opinion. I was keen for that as

:31:39.:31:43.

well. He did so and he said it has been used for decades and is safe

:31:44.:31:47.

across the country and safe on Southern rail. As soon as that came

:31:48.:31:51.

out, it was deemed to be a whitewash. There is always just

:31:52.:31:56.

another excuse as to why the strike is going on. There's no logic in

:31:57.:32:01.

this. It leads me to believe that that is collusion between the unions

:32:02.:32:05.

and labour. Andy Macdonald has rejected that. They are messing

:32:06.:32:10.

around with my constituents lives and it is incredibly shellfish. The

:32:11.:32:15.

report did find that union action was the primary cause for the

:32:16.:32:20.

network failure. The unions have called it a slap on the wrist. Do

:32:21.:32:28.

you accept that? Who paid him? Who paid Chris Gibb? GTR. He supposed to

:32:29.:32:38.

be independent. How are you independent if you are doing a

:32:39.:32:44.

report into an organisation that was paying you? You quoted from the

:32:45.:32:46.

reporter said it was a thing earlier. There are lots of good

:32:47.:32:52.

things in the report. Except for the things you don't agree with. I

:32:53.:32:57.

really do think. Let's have an honest think about this. The ?13.4

:32:58.:33:04.

million fine, isn't it remarkable that a good deal of that is recycled

:33:05.:33:07.

into doing what we've been asking all along. More people on trains.

:33:08.:33:13.

Why don't the government just wake up and make sure there is a guard on

:33:14.:33:17.

every train and get this strike over. People are talking about the

:33:18.:33:24.

page offer rejected, this is about safety and security and access

:33:25.:33:28.

ability. They want the best railway in the world and it is about time we

:33:29.:33:33.

had sensible conversations about it. It is also about pay. To be clear.

:33:34.:33:39.

Hugh Merriman, what made the government take so long to act on

:33:40.:33:45.

this? I've been through the contract with the transport select committee

:33:46.:33:49.

and it is quite a technical clause. Southern said it was down to the

:33:50.:33:54.

fault of industrial action. The government has demonstrated that

:33:55.:33:58.

some of the causes were Southern. I'm critical of both sides. My

:33:59.:34:02.

problem with the Labour Party position is that it is completely

:34:03.:34:06.

one-sided. They are showing they are not a government in waiting because

:34:07.:34:10.

they are sticking up for well-paid individuals rather than passengers

:34:11.:34:14.

who rely on the trains to get to work and to see their families.

:34:15.:34:16.

Thank you very much. The Shadow Chancellor,

:34:17.:34:19.

John McDonnell, recently said a million people take to the streets

:34:20.:34:22.

to change the Government, and endorsed a so-called

:34:23.:34:27.

"Day of Rage" in London. Well, as you might have noticed,

:34:28.:34:29.

the Government is still in place. So do protests and placard-waving

:34:30.:34:32.

really change anything? We'll discuss that in a moment,

:34:33.:34:34.

but first, let's have a look at a few of the more memorable

:34:35.:34:37.

demonstrations from recent years. # Welcome to the future

:34:38.:34:40.

of your world...# Police in capitals across Europe

:34:41.:34:53.

have taken no chances, turning out in force to keep

:34:54.:34:57.

a tight rein on demonstrations against alleged corporate greed

:34:58.:34:59.

and government cuts. A protest today in the city,

:35:00.:35:04.

marketed as a day of rage at the Government,

:35:05.:35:07.

slightly underwhelmed. # My friends, my dear,

:35:08.:35:10.

my love, my God... Angela Merkel chose liberal

:35:11.:35:21.

Hamburg, the gateway It's a decision

:35:22.:35:24.

she may be regretting. # There'll be trouble

:35:25.:35:33.

when the kidz come out.# We're joined now by Matthew Bolton

:35:34.:35:35.

from Citizens UK - that's a group that helps community

:35:36.:35:38.

groups organise to bring He's published a new book

:35:39.:35:40.

called How to Resist. And Jamie Kelsey-Fry

:35:41.:35:46.

is a contributing editor at New Internationalist magazine,

:35:47.:35:48.

and a supporter of various protests including

:35:49.:35:50.

the anti-capitalist Occupy Matthew, you described the recent

:35:51.:36:02.

day of rage in tended to shut down London as indulgent and useless.

:36:03.:36:08.

Why? For two reasons. Firstly, it gives protest a bad name. Firstly

:36:09.:36:15.

because it is ineffective, there is no power analysis, 300 activists are

:36:16.:36:18.

not going to bring down the government. By its own stated aims,

:36:19.:36:24.

it's an effective. It's also opportunistic. We are working around

:36:25.:36:29.

North Kensington, residents associations, at that time, talking

:36:30.:36:38.

about the fire at Grenfell Tower, what the people wanted was to know

:36:39.:36:42.

who died and who survived and have safe accommodation and to have their

:36:43.:36:47.

voices heard. They felt that cause had been hijacked by external

:36:48.:36:52.

activists. In that sense, you are not helping the campaign, some of

:36:53.:36:56.

them that you support because you don't achieve your stated aim to

:36:57.:37:00.

bring down the government. Many protests happened in the past that I

:37:01.:37:04.

fear have put people off the cause rather than getting them to support.

:37:05.:37:10.

But loads of protests have changed the course of history. Mass

:37:11.:37:25.

mobilisations. You can't cut, purely a outraged about tax avoidance. The

:37:26.:37:32.

occupier movement globally changed the dialogue about inequality.

:37:33.:37:36.

That's incredibly valuable. What do you think about changing the

:37:37.:37:40.

narrative, even if you can't point to specific policies and governments

:37:41.:37:45.

haven't been brought down but you change the political debate? I'm

:37:46.:37:48.

absolutely in favour of protest. There's lots of things people are

:37:49.:37:53.

angry about. I do agree that changing the narrative is important

:37:54.:37:57.

but hopefully we are making a tangible difference to people's

:37:58.:38:02.

lives. Think about the living wage campaign, the great benefit is

:38:03.:38:06.

something specific and tangible to address to each employer. Do you pay

:38:07.:38:13.

?9 75 in London? Can you create a political consensus around the need

:38:14.:38:17.

for higher wage? What are they as impactful and as big in terms of

:38:18.:38:23.

just doing them, seeing them? Just a volume of people? Does it have the

:38:24.:38:30.

power? I think you need both. Seeing the women's march in January when 21

:38:31.:38:35.

million people marched worldwide. A fantastic demonstration of

:38:36.:38:39.

solidarity, raising awareness, what do you do after the March? How do

:38:40.:38:43.

you turn that motivation into something tangible to get your

:38:44.:38:49.

employer to put best practice into practice. That is how people can

:38:50.:38:55.

make a difference. Isn't it to go for something achievable? If you

:38:56.:38:58.

say, let's get rid of the government, get rid of Donald Trump,

:38:59.:39:01.

those things don't happen because of a March. But getting votes for women

:39:02.:39:08.

did happen. Let's change the dialogue about 1% and the 99%. That

:39:09.:39:14.

did happen. If you're looking at a couple of people with placards,

:39:15.:39:21.

notoriously, that is ineffective. So what is the point? Because there are

:39:22.:39:29.

types of protests that do. In 2013, people went down to West Sussex and

:39:30.:39:33.

we managed to controversial eyes fracking over the period of five

:39:34.:39:38.

days whereas before people believed David Cameron when he said it is

:39:39.:39:43.

safe when it is not. Doesn't that underline the argument that it is

:39:44.:39:47.

better to go for I particular policy objective? They are both important.

:39:48.:39:52.

What we would like the viewers to come away from this segment with is,

:39:53.:39:57.

we've got to go out and do something. Globally, there is a

:39:58.:40:01.

historical total distrust in politics -- distrust. You can't just

:40:02.:40:08.

about every five years and that is you done, we want people to be

:40:09.:40:11.

political everyday. There are so many ways of doing that. We are

:40:12.:40:15.

looking at government after governments that just fail is. How

:40:16.:40:21.

did you feel about Jamie's move when he sat outside St Paul's Cathedral

:40:22.:40:25.

during the occupied protests? Was it worthwhile? The occupier movement

:40:26.:40:30.

was exactly the right motive and moment but I feel it was missing a

:40:31.:40:37.

certain method. Within the energy created there, it was front-page

:40:38.:40:41.

news for weeks but because the stated aims of the protest remained

:40:42.:40:48.

quite broad, an end to inequality, we do want that. But everybody is

:40:49.:40:52.

responsible for that and no one is responsible. How can we target that

:40:53.:40:56.

to a specific decision-makers and that is what the book offers a

:40:57.:41:01.

method for. But putting your money where your mouth is is important.

:41:02.:41:05.

Rather than just waiting for election. Isn't he and others who go

:41:06.:41:11.

out on big marches with big stated aims, like Occupy, bringing those to

:41:12.:41:20.

the attention of politicians? For many people. Occupy is mainly

:41:21.:41:24.

movement. Absolute rubbish. You weren't there. You may say that

:41:25.:41:35.

about it isn't true. The 1%, for example. You think that the share of

:41:36.:41:40.

income going up and up, in fact, income and equality is at a 30 year

:41:41.:41:46.

low. What is wrong with the middle-class protesting? There is

:41:47.:41:56.

nothing wrong but if you want a revolution, you want middle-class

:41:57.:42:00.

guys to go to hamburg, jetsetting around bringing down capitalism,

:42:01.:42:07.

that is not particularly practical. There are many more practical ways

:42:08.:42:14.

you can support things. You are out of touch with what was said, mate.

:42:15.:42:19.

Who were the majority of people involved? There is a play about Cap

:42:20.:42:26.

NICE occupier, about one homeless guy who woke up on the steps of

:42:27.:42:33.

Saint Pauls. In the play, he talks about the composite of the people

:42:34.:42:36.

living there. He said it was like being in prison. There was every

:42:37.:42:43.

class of this society there. That is what was extraordinary. We couldn't

:42:44.:42:48.

turn away people who are homeless or had alcohol issues, we had to

:42:49.:42:52.

embrace them. There is nothing wrong with middle-class activists but the

:42:53.:42:57.

question is, do we have someone who is directly affected by the issue at

:42:58.:43:04.

the heart of protest? That was the issue after Grenfell Tower. The

:43:05.:43:12.

living wage campaign was the voice of children of people earning less

:43:13.:43:18.

than the living wage. Look at Jeremy Corbyn's fans and momentum. Look at

:43:19.:43:24.

his rallies. They were accused of being middle class. Look how the

:43:25.:43:29.

visuals affected his popularity. In a way, it is irrelevant. The

:43:30.:43:36.

mainstream media underestimated it, we didn't. We were there all the

:43:37.:43:43.

time. He was speaking about the many and not the few. Where have you

:43:44.:43:49.

heard that before? The 99% and the 1%. If Jeremy Corbyn became Prime

:43:50.:43:53.

Minister and didn't enact some parts of his manifesto, for example

:43:54.:44:02.

getting rid of Jewish and fees. -- tuition fees. Would you go out and

:44:03.:44:11.

protest? Absolutely. The manifesto is important. But it is important to

:44:12.:44:18.

have local community to force politics to grow up in the 21st

:44:19.:44:22.

century and stop representing the one present. One of the risks here

:44:23.:44:28.

and the reason for writing the book is a million more 80-21 -year-olds

:44:29.:44:36.

floated in 2017 and they did in 2015. There's a real problem that

:44:37.:44:41.

cynicism and rage may be the product rather than channelling that

:44:42.:44:44.

interaction. It's about democracy not being something you just watch

:44:45.:44:46.

on television. Thank you very much. Now, it's Bastille Day and,

:44:47.:45:00.

as always in Paris, the President oversees Europe's oldest military

:45:01.:45:02.

parade along the Champs Elysee. Merriman.

:45:03.:45:08.

Donald Trump is in Paris for a two day visit. It is hard to believe it

:45:09.:45:13.

is just over a year since Emmanuel Macron launched his movement. He is

:45:14.:45:17.

President and his party has a majority on the French National

:45:18.:45:18.

Assembly. Let us take a look back. # Does it almost feel that

:45:19.:45:24.

nothing changed at all? # Does it almost feel that

:45:25.:46:02.

you've been here before # Now how am I going to be

:46:03.:46:10.

an optimist about this? I'm joined now by Alexandre Holroyd,

:46:11.:46:33.

he's a member of the French National Assembly

:46:34.:46:36.

for the Northern Europe region. Congratulations and welcome to the

:46:37.:46:41.

daily politics, it sin credible a party that didn't really exist a few

:46:42.:46:47.

years ago, is now in charge of France, with your President Emmanuel

:46:48.:46:50.

Macron, but that also meanses that expectations are going to be very

:46:51.:46:53.

high, how are you going to manage them? They are very high, and I

:46:54.:47:00.

think that the substance is the change, the fact we have done this

:47:01.:47:04.

incredible thing of building a party from scratch in a year, and of

:47:05.:47:07.

winning over the presidency and the National Assembly in a year speaks

:47:08.:47:10.

volume about how much the French want change, so we have a sense of

:47:11.:47:14.

responsibility. We know we don't have a choice and we are going to

:47:15.:47:18.

get to work. We got cracking the day after the election, I was in Paris

:47:19.:47:22.

by 9.00 the day after and we have passed our first law, which is the

:47:23.:47:27.

liberalisation of the labour market. Yes, you could argue, that there was

:47:28.:47:33.

a low turn out, relatively low in the Parliamentary election, that

:47:34.:47:36.

there is disenchantment. You say there is a big mandate for change,

:47:37.:47:39.

and for Emmanuel Macron that is true. How do you deal with that that

:47:40.:47:42.

exists because there was a low turn out in the Parliamentary election?

:47:43.:47:47.

So there was a low turn out in the Parliamentary election, although,

:47:48.:47:50.

for a lot of other countries including the UK that would be quite

:47:51.:47:57.

high, what is clear is that there's been a lack of explanation of what

:47:58.:48:01.

policy makers are doing in past years or decades and one of the

:48:02.:48:04.

first decisions that Emmanuel Macron took was to go in front of Congress,

:48:05.:48:10.

which both Houses of Parliament to explain what the vision, the

:48:11.:48:14.

direction of travel is, that is very important. Have do a better job.

:48:15.:48:22.

Press December sores have tried to reform France and the labour laws

:48:23.:48:26.

there and have failed. In part because of the strength of the

:48:27.:48:30.

union, and also Parliamentary opposition, in the past, how are you

:48:31.:48:33.

going to deal with that fight that will come? We will deal with that

:48:34.:48:38.

fight. There were two main big difference, the first is that we

:48:39.:48:42.

have been elected on a mandate that outlined what we were doing n detail

:48:43.:48:47.

of the procedure, we won both elections on that programme which

:48:48.:48:51.

never changed, from the moment we launched the movement to the moment

:48:52.:48:58.

we got in office. That is different to what we did before. So there is a

:48:59.:49:04.

difference of procedure, the second thing is we want to talk to the

:49:05.:49:09.

unions, there has never been... That is a novel thing. Politics talking

:49:10.:49:16.

to unions. It is in France. We have had over 60 meets between the Prime

:49:17.:49:21.

Minister and the union, we are negotiating every step with the

:49:22.:49:24.

union, sop of the unions who have been opposed to past reform, today

:49:25.:49:28.

are supporting the reforms or at least working with Government to go

:49:29.:49:32.

in the right direction. Let us talk about Trump, because you have beaten

:49:33.:49:37.

the UK to it, you have got the American President in town for those

:49:38.:49:40.

Bastille Day celebration, is Emmanuel Macron embracing Donald

:49:41.:49:43.

Trump? Natural is not the way I would put it. 100 years ago, if I

:49:44.:49:51.

remember it was the 6th April 1917, the Americans entered the First

:49:52.:49:55.

World War and they sent troops which died in battlefield in northern

:49:56.:49:59.

France. This was 100 years ago and this 14th July, like every 14th July

:50:00.:50:04.

we have foreign troops which march alongside French troops. This year

:50:05.:50:07.

it is the American troops in memory of this alliance that was again,

:50:08.:50:13.

sort of rekindled in the Second World War, it was only natural we

:50:14.:50:18.

would receive the head of state. We have lots of common naturalties with

:50:19.:50:24.

the US, working on terrorism, global security, Emmanuel Macron has been

:50:25.:50:29.

clear on the difference, for instance on the Paris accord and

:50:30.:50:32.

with this discourse of between long-standing allies and allies that

:50:33.:50:37.

will remain far after Emmanuel Macron subpoena President and far

:50:38.:50:41.

after Donald Trump, we have to keep in mind what we have in common

:50:42.:50:44.

rather than what separates us. We will come on to Brexit in a moment,

:50:45.:50:48.

what do you think of Emmanuel Macron, and his chances of success?

:50:49.:50:54.

I think he is coming across as Trumpesque, his mask is slipping as

:50:55.:50:57.

this liberal darling, at least in the UK, because we have seen him

:50:58.:51:01.

making France speeches from Versailles, not talking to the

:51:02.:51:05.

press, saying his thoughts are too complex. Comparing himself to

:51:06.:51:09.

Jupiter. That will make people's opinions of him change. People in

:51:10.:51:16.

this country who love centrists, a bit confused by some of the

:51:17.:51:20.

symbolism he is giving off. Do you think he is coming off as a bit

:51:21.:51:25.

grand. He has new politicians of course, who have never been in

:51:26.:51:29.

elected office. It looks and feel different. Does he look and feel

:51:30.:51:33.

that different when you see him in Versailles. I think he does. The

:51:34.:51:39.

French need this drama, they need this direction, in a country which

:51:40.:51:43.

is, really doesn't know where to go, you have somebody who created a

:51:44.:51:48.

party out of his own momentum. It is an incredible thing to watch, the

:51:49.:51:51.

creation from nothing, of a party not just won the presidency but went

:51:52.:51:57.

on to take the Parliament as well. And I think, right now, where

:51:58.:52:00.

leadership is nowhere, and in Britain we are lacking leadership

:52:01.:52:04.

too, France has managed to produce someone who has won the confidence

:52:05.:52:09.

of the country. I would allow him to be big headed. He is sat next to

:52:10.:52:13.

Trump, thumbs up, and he fetes away with it. He made his comment about

:52:14.:52:20.

the Paris Agreement, he said Macron, I want to make the planet great

:52:21.:52:28.

again, mocking a parody of Donald Trump saying he wants to make

:52:29.:52:32.

America great again. He made that video addressing the American people

:52:33.:52:34.

about the terrible President, but look at him now, he is Trump's new

:52:35.:52:39.

best friend. What about Brexit, what does Emmanuel Macron... He doesn't

:52:40.:52:43.

compare himself to Jupiter, that is the press who cap pairs him to be

:52:44.:52:47.

Jupiter. Thank you for that point of orrer. Would he object to that

:52:48.:52:52.

comparison. What he did in front of Parliament is what has been lacking

:52:53.:52:55.

in France, which is give a direction and sense of where the vision is

:52:56.:53:01.

going. It's form of the constitution, it is addressing both

:53:02.:53:04.

Houses of Parliament to show where we are going, that is what the

:53:05.:53:06.

French want to here, a description of what is going ho happen and the

:53:07.:53:10.

reasons why we are doing the reforms which is sometimes quite hard. Is he

:53:11.:53:14.

a fan of Brexit? I don't think he is a fan or a non-fan of Brexit. He is

:53:15.:53:22.

a pro European, we campaign on a very pro European platform. We

:53:23.:53:25.

support the Commission's effort to have a common European position an

:53:26.:53:31.

we will stick by it, which is to support the European Commission in

:53:32.:53:33.

its effort to negotiate with the UK. It is is a question I am often

:53:34.:53:38.

asked, what I often answer is Brexit is not as much of an issue in France

:53:39.:53:45.

as it is here. Accept he wants to push for closer cooperation between

:53:46.:53:49.

the Euro-zone, he is talking about Democratic Convention, what are

:53:50.:53:54.

they? So this is the way we developed the national programme,

:53:55.:53:57.

which is the association of citizens talking, because we think what

:53:58.:54:01.

Europe needs now is to bring back citizens into the vision of what

:54:02.:54:05.

Europe should come. We would have to understand what they expect from

:54:06.:54:09.

Europe, what they desire Europe to be, which is what we have lost track

:54:10.:54:13.

of, and associated that with professionals, to come up with a

:54:14.:54:18.

sort of more constitutional vision of what it is rather than sort of,

:54:19.:54:23.

sort of grass root vision. We have to let you go. Happy Bastille Day.

:54:24.:54:25.

Time now to find out the answer to our quiz.

:54:26.:54:29.

The question was, what was written on the back of the Arsenal

:54:30.:54:31.

shirt Jeremy Corbyn gave Michel Barnier yesterday?

:54:32.:54:33.

or d) Seumas, I'm not sure this is a great idea.

:54:34.:54:41.

It has to be Seamus. That is the funniest line. It the funniest but

:54:42.:54:54.

not the right answer. Barnier? I am afraid it was just plain old

:54:55.:54:59.

Barnier. Do you think he was pleased to receive the shirt? He gave Jeremy

:55:00.:55:06.

Corbyn a poster. Who did better? That was a lovely shirt.

:55:07.:55:12.

So our relationship with Brussels once more dominated the news agenda,

:55:13.:55:16.

let's take a look at the week in 60 seconds.

:55:17.:55:20.

Theresa May marked her one year in office by welcoming the Spanish king

:55:21.:55:27.

and Queen, and she finally admitted that the election had cause her some

:55:28.:55:33.

grief. Yes, a little tear. Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn hot-footed it to

:55:34.:55:38.

Brussels, where he gave an Arsenal shirt to the EU Brexit negotiator

:55:39.:55:45.

Michel Barnier. Emily Thornberry and Damian Green deputised at Prime

:55:46.:55:48.

Minister's Questions. The first secretary didn't get the Prime

:55:49.:55:53.

Minister's memo, you are supposed to be building consensus, men, and if

:55:54.:55:59.

we... The Brexit secretary, David Davis, unveiled the Government's

:56:00.:56:01.

Repeal Bill and called on other parties to support it, but Labour,

:56:02.:56:05.

the SNP and the Liberal Democrats have threatened to veto it. More

:56:06.:56:09.

bridge building required. Speaking of which Foreign Secretary

:56:10.:56:13.

Boris Johnson had a message for the EU over divorce payments And I think

:56:14.:56:18.

go whistle is an entirely appropriate expression.

:56:19.:56:29.

Well, that was the week in 60 seconds, Barnier has said the clock

:56:30.:56:35.

is ticking, do you expect much progress next week. It doesn't look

:56:36.:56:41.

like David Davis and his colleagues are being... Boris Johnson said the

:56:42.:56:46.

negotiators can go whistle about the divorce bill they have to pay. I

:56:47.:56:50.

don't know if they will get far unless they agree to pay some of the

:56:51.:56:54.

bill. It is going to be down to money? I have spoken to a number of

:56:55.:56:59.

Tory MPs, who are beginning to feel that we could pay, to get the sort

:57:00.:57:05.

of access and continuing relationship with things like

:57:06.:57:08.

Europol and so on and so forth I think it is about money. This is a

:57:09.:57:15.

typical street stall haggle. The EU saying we want this money and Boris

:57:16.:57:20.

is saying you will not get any. There will be something between the

:57:21.:57:23.

two. That will continue once we left? No, I think it will be a one

:57:24.:57:28.

off payment and might be bigger than we would have liked but to get out

:57:29.:57:31.

the EU is the ultimate objective. It wouldn't be a failure if we end up

:57:32.:57:34.

paying more than we expected. Do you see that or do you think payments

:57:35.:57:38.

for certain things will continue, aside from the sort of divorce bill?

:57:39.:57:42.

That would be the sensible thing to do, like Frazer said, I don't see

:57:43.:57:45.

any evidence of that happening. Theresa May has gone in for the

:57:46.:57:50.

hardest exit she possibly can, why would she begin softening it now.

:57:51.:57:55.

She sees it as a negotiating stance, talking of which, Jeremy Corbyn,

:57:56.:58:01.

there with Michelle barn yes, Nicola Sturgeon, they are having their own

:58:02.:58:05.

meetings, do they make a difference? They do, any opportunity the SNP

:58:06.:58:09.

gets to put a spoke in the wheels it will take, and a Labour

:58:10.:58:14.

administration, in Wales, SNP in Edinburgh, if they get a thing on

:58:15.:58:19.

this, it will be one more rod for Theresa May's back. The transition

:58:20.:58:24.

period, there is debate Liam Fox implying it could be a few months,

:58:25.:58:29.

others saying two years. This is another example of minister making

:58:30.:58:34.

it up as they go along, Labour keeps accusing the Cabinet of doing. It

:58:35.:58:38.

looks like they are doing that, I think that don't have a queue

:58:39.:58:42.

excited line on this. There is a long hot summer to go ahead.

:58:43.:58:47.

Thank you for being my guests of the day. Andrew will be back on Sunday

:58:48.:58:53.

on BBC One at 11 with the Sunday Politics and guests will include the

:58:54.:58:56.

international Trade Secretary Liam Fox. Bye.

:58:57.:58:57.

Jo Coburn is joined by Spectator editor Fraser Nelson and Anoosh Chakelian from the New Statesman. Following on from the anniversary of Theresa May's first year as prime minister they look at what the next year might look like.

Plus Matthew Bolton from Citizens UK and Jamie Kelsey-Fry from the New Internationalist discuss whether street protests actually achieve anything, and Jo chats to Alexander Holroyd, the French En March! MP who is responsible for London.