14/07/2017 Daily Politics


14/07/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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She's been Prime Minister for a year, and what a year it's been.

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So what does the next 12 months have in store for Theresa May?

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And can the Government do all the things it wants to do?

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Train drivers on Southern Rail vote for fresh strikes

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Meanwhile, the Transport Secretary accuses Labour of colluding

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with the unions to bring misery to passengers.

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Jeremy Corbyn is as likely to be seen addressing big

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rallies, as he is wondering through the corridors of power.

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But do street protests really bring about political change?

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And, as the French President welcomes his American

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counterpart on Bastille Day, we speak to a leading French

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politician about the rise of Emmanuel Macron, Brexit

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and the future of Anglo-French relations.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration

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a double act to rival May and Corbyn, Barnier and Davis,

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That's Fraser Nelson, editor of The Spectator,

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and Anoosh Chakelian, from The New Statesman -

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So, it's the end of the week in which Theresa May celebrated,

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if that's the right word, her first twelve months

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It hasn't exactly gone to plan, understatement of the year. Nothing

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has gone to plan for her for the last four or five months. But she's

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still here which is more than people thought on election night. We all

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know that she is going to resign, unlike Gordon Brown who we thought

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would hang on, everyone knows she will walk the plank at some point

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but nobody knows who will succeed her. Until the party makes up its

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mind, she will stay. She is like an undead Prime Minister, it's very

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strange. When do you think the walking the plank will be? If we

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take that view. She's given herself a few years. I think she might be

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right. We don't know the exact deadline. Her weakness is keeping

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her in place. No Conservative MP wants to destabilise things when

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Jeremy Corbyn is at a high, partly because of Theresa May's weakness.

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Would it be better to admin that it was a mistake to call an election? I

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don't think anybody thinks it was the right decision. She might have

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meant that if things went a planet might have been a good decision but

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it was obviously the biggest self-inflicted wound in the history

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of the Conservative Party. She has probably inflicted more damage on

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party then anybody since Tony Blair. What have we learnt about politics

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in the last few months? That you shouldn't take anything for granted.

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As soon as you start attacking someone, personal attacks like in

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the campaign, the public can react differently and it might backfire.

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Should there have been more of a mea culpa? She said that she shared a

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tear, which for her is a big deal and then she claimed that she

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immediately thought of the message that the electorate had sent. There

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was no sense of that. It was a staged mea culpa. A lesser Prime

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Minister would have quit and walk away as David Cameron did after the

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Brexit foe. She is sticking with it because she feels a sense of duty to

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the party and she deserves credit for that. Sense of duty is

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important. She is the great survivor. Of course, her decision to

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stand for the leadership in the first place was quite brave. Nobody

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wanted to inherit a Brexit negotiations. But she had felt for a

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while that she could become leader. Brexit negotiations, if we go back

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to Lancaster house and that speech, is it going to continue to be a

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template? I think so. The Lancaster house speech was a very persuasive

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template. Only 12 weeks ago, we were looking at the local election

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results and everything she did seem to have been vindicated. We have

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learned how quickly politics can shift and certainties vanish. What

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does it say about support? That it is very soft and flaky on both

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sides? And things can change. It's almost as though the Conservatives

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prospects have flipped over and reflect what Labour was suffering

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before the election. It could flick over again. Is she human now? She is

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never going to be a great raconteur with her emotions on her sleeve. The

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public see her for what she is, someone who works very hard with a

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huge sense of duty but finds it hard to say, come and be my friend. Other

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politicians do that. It doesn't matter because she won't be standing

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for election again. So, Theresa May's second year

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in Downing Street is now underway. If you believe Jeremy Corbyn -

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then the government is clapped out and he'll have her job

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before Christmas. But allies of the Prime Minister

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say that she can carry on for years. So, if you'll excuse the

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naval metaphor, let's take a look at what's in the offing

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for Theresa May's government A top priority is of course

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to sail the ship of state Face-to-face talks between

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the Brexit Secretary David Davis and the EU's Chief Negotiator

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will resume this Monday. Yesterday, the government

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introduced the Repeal Bill, this will overturn the 1972

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legislation that took the UK into the Common Market and also

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convert EU law into UK law. The opposition parties are keen

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to amend and oppose the bill - the Liberal Democrat leader

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Tim Farron even said that the passage of the bill

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will be "hell" for the government. And there are seven other bills

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related to Brexit on the horizon - in particular, the Customs Bill,

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the Immigration Bill In the autumn, the Chancellor Philip

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Hammond will present his He'll be under pressure to yield

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to calls for him to end the 1% cap But the government's

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economic strategy got a boost from the independent Office

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for Budget Responsibility yesterday. The fiscal watchdog suggested

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that ending austerity and increasing spending could pose a "significant

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risk" to the public finances. And in the Queen's Speech we got

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a sense of the other priorities of the government -

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including a consultation on social care, an industrial strategy

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to boost growth and a review Joining me now is Conservative MP,

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Kwasi Kwarteng, who is Parliamentary Private Secretary

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to the Chancellor Philip Hammond. And from Middlesbrough we are joined

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by Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald. Hell for the government?

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Parliamentary guerrilla warfare. What are you going to do about it?

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Tim Farron has his own agenda and he was the leader of a campaign that

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didn't do very well. Both the Conservative Party and the Labour

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Party are committed to Brexit. I think we can get a decent majority

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for repealing the European Community zag across the house. It'll be

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difficult but I think we can do that. I think Tim Farron is not

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reflecting the mood of the House of Commons. He has 12 MPs, he resigned

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because he did so badly and I don't think he's in a position to talk

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about guerrilla warfare. I think we will be able to get things through.

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The fact that he is promising it, against a backdrop of the Article 50

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legislation, knowing that there are a group of Conservative MPs looking

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to oppose a bill like a rip your bill at least with amendments to it.

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That might make life very difficult and water down the bill. Do you

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accept that? We had about nine votes over the Article 50 legislation.

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I've never seen anything like it. If you look at the division nose and

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saw the Conservative rebels, there were very few of them. The

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majorities we secured were much more safe than people anticipated. I

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agree that the situation now is more difficult but I'd be such prize to

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see the number of rebels that I've read about. I don't think it would

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be as many as 15. The party is quite united and determined to see us

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through this process. But not without amendments, changes,

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frustration in the Bills. You only have to look at the opposition.

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Labour have promised to amend it. We've got the Liberal Democrats and

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the SNP saying similar things. 15 MPs is not a massive number. The

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odds are stacked against you. I don't think it is as high as 15 and

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I've given the reasons why. You assume that the opposition is united

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but we know that there are Labour MPs who voted for Brexit and people

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like Caroline Flint who don't want freedom of movement and are

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representing constituencies where the majority voted to leave. I don't

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think it's as simple as you suggest. Let's ask Andy McDonald on the

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Labour side, welcome to the programme, talking on the repeal

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bill specifically, you are asking for a whole range of concessions.

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The government probably won't give you everything that you want. In all

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likelihood, are you just going to vote against the repeal Bill? I

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think we'll be voting for our amendments but I think the principle

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of the repeal bill is accepted but it's up on what terms and what comes

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afterwards. We've set out very clearly, embracing David Davis's own

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words of the exact same benefits and making sure that we are still

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parties to important European organisations that have served as

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well and it's absolutely imperative that we do not throw the baby out

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with the bath water and we don't throw away 40 years of benefits. Are

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those red lines? For Labour. If you listen to Keir Starmer, who is

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shadowing on the Brexit side for Labour, they want to see the

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incorporation of the European Charter of fundamental rights, that

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means that you can't vote for the repeal bill as it stands. We will

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see. I think we've got to have pragmatic and sensible approach to

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this. What does that mean? Theresa May obviously recognises the

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weakness of her own position and is trying to reach out to other parties

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to help her out. That, for me, signals that there is some sense

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that there is going to be some element of compromise. On what,

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though? That's too early for me to say. The bill was published

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yesterday. But we've heard Keir Starmer on the European Charter of

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fundamental rights. Is that a red line for Keir Starmer and Labour? He

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will make that clear. I'm not going to step into his shoes and say that

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or not. We need pragmatic views on what can be achieved so we don't

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leave the European Union and the impact of it making our people much

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worse off. We've got to give people the chance to make some progress on

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these hugely important areas for hours. To start shouting the odds at

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this stage, I'm afraid, that's where the Tories got into difficulties in

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the first place by having such an intransigence of view with their

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European partners, rather than saying let's negotiate. Let's put

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that to Kwasi. We don't know exactly the areas that they are going to try

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and change and amend but they are obviously going to try and do it. If

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we look at the European Charter of fundamental rights, would you have

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way on that? That's way above my pay grade. Let's look at the actual bill

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and see what the amendments are. The fact is, to say that the opposition

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is completely united is false. We saw Chuka Umunna put down an

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amendment and 49 Labour MPs voted in favour of that. A large portion of

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the party didn't. Before you move on, I want a savoury clearly that

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you've got a very simplified picture of the parliamentary arithmetic and

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there are splits on the Labour side and I think the Conservative Party

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is more united than you have assumed and I think we'll be able to get

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something out of it. Let's talk about the Labour dilemma. It is true

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that Caroline Flint is very keen to emphasise to you and other Labour

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colleagues that the party must stick with what it promised which is

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leaving the single market because you promised to end freedom of

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movement and leave PE you in the way that her constituents would like to

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see. That is at complete odds with the constituents of Keir Starmer or

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Jeremy Kyle Britain or -- or Jeremy Kyle been all Emily Thornberry. How

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can you satisfy both? The vote was very close. The discussion has two B

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about securing the benefits of the single market is as David Davies

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pointed out. If it comes to freedom of movement, we accept that goes if

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you leave the single market. What comes in its place? It is the

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ability to look at migration and have a policy that serves the

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economy in our interests. We can do that very sensibly. It doesn't mean

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pulling up the drawbridge. It means having an active immigration policy

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where people are welcomed into our country to help as in the areas

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where we need their skills and abilities. A very sensible attitude.

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I will bring in Andy McDonald. How difficult is this going to be for

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both parties to pull off? The problems are similar, all of them

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have MPs who represent constituents who would rather stay in for

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financial or cultural reasons and they have constituents who voted to

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leave. Kwasi talk about Labour being divided. It is divide on Brexit,

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but, what it is united in, is make things as difficult as possible for

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a very weak Government and the Tories shown underest mate that. Is

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the Repeal Bill going to be the place where that opposition is going

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to come to the fore, the fight against the Conservatives and in

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some people's minds the fight against Brexit. It is an opportunity

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for Labour to try to make common cause of Tory rebel, it doesn't

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matter if it is about the EU or parking fine, anything, you would

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take a chance to inflict a defeat, or think of something nobody thought

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of before, the provision of abortion for women in Northern Ireland, you

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take something like that and try and get a concession, the repeal bill is

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misnamed. It is not the great any more. It is taking regulation and

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making it into British law. It's the great regulation bill if you like.

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Because there is so much it creates opportunities to embarrass is

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Government. Before we move on, what is more important do you and your

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Labour colleague, getting rid of this Conservative Government, or

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seeing through the Brexit negotiations? Well, both. They are

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both important. But... You might use the Brexit negotiation to get rid of

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this Government? Well, I mean, Theresa May thought she was going to

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have this massive mandate for her to do as she wish, and that is not

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going to happen. She knows that, that is why she is in difficulty.

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Not bringing anything to the floor of the House of Commons because she

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knows she have the Dell's own job to progress anything. We will be acting

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in the best interests of country and making sure we get the best possible

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bill we can and it addresses the needs of our people. For goodness'

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sake, what else should we do? Let us move on to the economy, Philip

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Hammond will give his autumn budget, if you are going to listen to some

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of the voices inside the Cabinet, and other Tory backbenchers, who are

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asking for the 1% public sector pay cap to be lifted, is that something

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you can support. Certainly we won't rewrite the budget half way through

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the year, there will be a budgetary event as you suggested. We have had

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discussion about pay cap. I don't have any idea what will be in the

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budget. It was important the Government held the line. Deficit

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reduction is important, people understand that, we have done a

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long, very well in that, over the last seven year, it has gone from 50

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billion to 50 billion. That is important, and the idea that if a

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Labour Government came in, we would see further progress on this, is not

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correct. It is fanciful. The IFS have said that Labour's plans would

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cost ?100 billion more, would add to the deficit. ?100 billion oh the

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course of a five year Parliament. That is a lot of money, a lot of

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debt. The Office for Budget Responsibility suggested that

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fatigue and increased spending could post a significant risk to the

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public finance, does that not mow blow a hole your economic argument?

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At least we set out with some, in some detail what our spending plans

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w and where the money would come from, we heard nothing from the Tory

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party, and look, they missed their target, they have done since 2010

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and they keep putting them back. I am asking about your economic

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argument, because if the Office for Budget Responsibility is saying that

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spending to, if you like, mitigate the effects of austerity and

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increasing spending are going to pose a significant risk particularly

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with some the uncertainties round Brexit, is that a responsible

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economic argument for Labour to be putting forward? Well is it really

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responsible to have a plan where by our nurses are going, working flat

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out, an not having sufficient money to get through the week, where

:19:47.:19:53.

families are ?1400 a year worse off, as a result of austerity, while

:19:54.:19:56.

giving the tax breaks to the very very richest in our society. There

:19:57.:20:01.

is something morally bankrupt about that and there has to be a better

:20:02.:20:05.

distribution of the wealth of nation. Let me put that to Kwasi.

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Morally bankrupt he say, isn't the proof in the pudding the result of

:20:12.:20:15.

the election, because you are not listening, to the public, when it

:20:16.:20:19.

comes to things like pay, and cost of living and look at rates of

:20:20.:20:24.

inflation, hitting 3%, squeeze on people's pay now, you know, it is a

:20:25.:20:31.

big cut, the average pay is about 1.8% pay rise, 3% inflation, people

:20:32.:20:35.

can't afford, things in the way they could. You need to change your

:20:36.:20:39.

policy S Three things to that. If you look at the economic management

:20:40.:20:43.

we have had since 2010. We have reduced the deficit by two thirds. I

:20:44.:20:47.

am talking about now. It is is a broader debate. If we don't have a

:20:48.:20:53.

decent economy, people will suffer far more, than if we have a well run

:20:54.:20:56.

economy, that is self evident. That is self evident. People are

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saying... If we look at the alternative, we have the record

:21:01.:21:05.

numbers of. Employment, the lowest unemployment rate 40 year, we have

:21:06.:21:09.

reduced the deficit by two-third and we have over the last seven years on

:21:10.:21:14.

the compounded annual basis we have grown faster than every other

:21:15.:21:18.

country in Europe. How do you... I am establishing with you, I

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understand that. This is a God record. We accept that there are

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difficulties in terms of rising living costs, but, what I would say

:21:27.:21:32.

is the alternative f you go down a Labour route you will increase the

:21:33.:21:38.

debt, you will increase you could increase inflation, and you could

:21:39.:21:41.

increase interest rates and that would be very damaging to people on

:21:42.:21:47.

lower incomes. Andy McDonald? That is ludicrous, more pain to inflict

:21:48.:21:51.

on the most vulnerable and worse off in society. I will challenge Kwasi

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to come to my constituency and come into some of the territories where

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people are really suffering on this Tory regime. They are having the

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toughest of times and yet we sit back and think this all in the

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garden is Rosie, it isn't. For many millions in the country and for him

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to suggest this is a success story, I would hate to see what failure

:22:13.:22:16.

would look like, this has been a miserable time for thousands and

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millions of people, right across this land and it is about time the

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Tories woke up to that. There is a huge outpouring and embracing of

:22:25.:22:27.

Labour's message to say we can order society in a totally different way

:22:28.:22:31.

and we cannot simply go on pandering to the richest in oat who can afford

:22:32.:22:35.

to pay a little more. A quick response, we were told you are not

:22:36.:22:39.

deaf as a government. Frazer will know the richest 1% are paying more

:22:40.:22:45.

as a proportion of tax. Is that making nurses feel better or

:22:46.:22:48.

teachers feel better about the cost of living? Something I have accepted

:22:49.:22:52.

the cost of living is an issue, we have address it with regards to the

:22:53.:22:55.

personal allowance, we more than doubled that. The wait you pay tax

:22:56.:23:00.

is higher now, than was ever the case in the past. Thank you both

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very much. Briefly, is this where the argument is going to be putting

:23:05.:23:08.

Brexit to one side slightly, looking at the economic tussle between the

:23:09.:23:12.

two parties? Yes it will be about fairness. The Tories have a strong

:23:13.:23:18.

story to tell. Look at whose incomes have gone up, whose have gone done.

:23:19.:23:22.

It is richest whose incomes have fallen the most. The Conservatives

:23:23.:23:27.

have been progressive. Those at the bottom have been protected. Is that

:23:28.:23:33.

how you see? It The argument for austerity has been dropped. She

:23:34.:23:38.

didn't make it a priority so it is difficult for them to bring it back

:23:39.:23:42.

to the top of the agenda again. Thank owe both P

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Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn met the EU's Brexit negotiator in Brussels

:23:44.:23:48.

and to get into his good books he gave him an Arsenal shirt.

:23:49.:23:51.

So our question for today is, what was written on the back?

:23:52.:23:53.

or d) Seumas, I'm not sure this is a great idea.

:23:54.:24:09.

At the end of the show Fraser and Anoosh

:24:10.:24:11.

With we are saying goodbye to Kwasi Kwarteng.

:24:12.:24:21.

Train drivers on Southern Rail have voted for fresh

:24:22.:24:23.

strikes over the summer, after rejecting a pay

:24:24.:24:25.

Govia Thameslink had offered staff a four-year pay deal worth nearly

:24:26.:24:28.

But the drivers' union Aslef has announced three days of strikes

:24:29.:24:34.

at the start of August, after its members voted

:24:35.:24:36.

Meanwhile, the Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, has announced

:24:37.:24:41.

a ?13 million fine for the train company for the disruption

:24:42.:24:44.

And in the Commons yesterday, he also took aim at the Labour Party.

:24:45.:24:49.

Let's be clear about what's been done today, I have, for months,

:24:50.:24:52.

said the problems on this railway are not purely down to industrial

:24:53.:24:57.

But, I'm also very clear, Mr Speaker, and so is Chris Gibb's

:24:58.:25:01.

report, that the prime responsibility for the trouble

:25:02.:25:03.

on that network in the last few months has come from trade unions,

:25:04.:25:06.

fighting the battles of 30 years ago, and still they get support

:25:07.:25:09.

from the Labour Party, and the reality is it is

:25:10.:25:12.

the Labour Party and the unions colluding to bring trouble

:25:13.:25:14.

Well, Andy McDonald is still with us - he was opposite Chris Grayling

:25:15.:25:23.

And from Tunbridge Wells we're joined by Conservative MP

:25:24.:25:26.

Huw Merriman, who represents the Bexhill and Battle

:25:27.:25:28.

We did ask Aslef - the train drivers' union -

:25:29.:25:31.

if anyone was available for interview, but no one was.

:25:32.:25:40.

Delighted you are here. We heard Chris Grayling saying Labour was

:25:41.:25:46.

colluded with the union over this industrial action, do you support

:25:47.:25:51.

the industrial action? That is not true. And if Chris Grayling has any

:25:52.:25:58.

evidence of this terrible lie he is trying to perpetuate, let him come

:25:59.:26:02.

forward with it. He makes it up. It is not true there has been that sort

:26:03.:26:06.

of discussion with the trade unions at all. Do you support the

:26:07.:26:11.

industrial action though? Well, I support passengers in their bid to

:26:12.:26:16.

have a railway that is safe, and secure and accessible. You do

:26:17.:26:22.

support the industrial action It find it staggering that the Tories

:26:23.:26:26.

are prepared to compromise on safety when it is clear we need a second

:26:27.:26:31.

member of crew on that, every train, who is critically trained in safety.

:26:32.:26:36.

We have seen evidence of it, look at the Watford issue months ago, driver

:26:37.:26:40.

incapacitated, who led the passengers safely away from that

:26:41.:26:46.

train? It was the guard. And these people are talking about taking

:26:47.:26:50.

guards off trains and having them depart stations without that safety

:26:51.:26:53.

critical person onboard. It is plain. It is a dangerous game. I

:26:54.:26:59.

want and answer, do you support the industrial actionsome I do support

:27:00.:27:04.

the industrial action, because it is standing up for passengers, for

:27:05.:27:08.

safety, for accessibility, these are things that we all should be

:27:09.:27:11.

standing up for, instead of compromising on it and putting

:27:12.:27:15.

people at risk. I wish Tories would wake up and realise that is what the

:27:16.:27:20.

people want, and it isn't beyond the wit to Rossiter a train to make sure

:27:21.:27:24.

that it is properly staffed, in terms of not only driver, which they

:27:25.:27:30.

can't do because they didn't recruit enough or assess what was available,

:27:31.:27:34.

and making sure that second critical person is onboard. Right. It is is a

:27:35.:27:40.

simple matter. You don't care about passenger safety Hugh merry man? I

:27:41.:27:45.

do. I commute from East Sussex to Parliament, so of course I care

:27:46.:27:49.

about my safety and my constituent, this strike is about a rejection of

:27:50.:27:53.

a pay rise, this is not a strike based on the technology, that is the

:27:54.:27:58.

overtime ban, so for Andy McDonald to talk about whether it is morally

:27:59.:28:04.

wrong for people to be given big pay rises versus 1% for nurses and not

:28:05.:28:11.

condemn a strike with a 23% pay rise has been reject is hypocrisy. It

:28:12.:28:16.

isn't just about safety it is about pay rise, why should Aslef go on

:28:17.:28:22.

strike when they have rejected a 24% pay rise taking salaries from

:28:23.:28:29.

?39,000 to 60,000? Well, you have to get the detail of that, this

:28:30.:28:32.

franchise... That is a massive pay rise. Hang on, hang on, it

:28:33.:28:38.

predicated on the basis that people work their overtime, days off, do we

:28:39.:28:41.

sensibly want to have a railway system that is run where people are

:28:42.:28:45.

working six and seven days a week? This is crazy. As far, hang on, let

:28:46.:28:51.

us be clear about what was being offered, because as I understand it,

:28:52.:28:57.

the pay offer would have taken the base salary, from 39,000 to just

:28:58.:29:01.

over 60,000, for the existing 35 hour week, four days a week.

:29:02.:29:07.

Well, you are going to have to have Aslef come on and give you their

:29:08.:29:12.

details. It is not a seven day week, which is what you said? The basis if

:29:13.:29:17.

you are running a railway on overtime, how mad is that? You

:29:18.:29:21.

should have enough people properly employed to do the proper working

:29:22.:29:26.

week and not rely on people to turn up. Chris Gibbs said so, if you, the

:29:27.:29:31.

Gibb report says a so. Let us go back to Hugh, because there was

:29:32.:29:36.

overwhelming support for rejecting that pay rise, so if there was

:29:37.:29:40.

overwhelming support for it, the grievances must be big. We have to

:29:41.:29:45.

be clear, this rejection has been on pay, the overtime ban that is in

:29:46.:29:49.

place is about the technology, so this is purely about pay. And it

:29:50.:29:53.

can't be right when pay is only going up by 1.8% that a 24% pay rise

:29:54.:29:59.

can be rejected. I would urge the drivers to think about my

:30:00.:30:03.

constituents, commuters who are not earning like like this doing more

:30:04.:30:08.

than 35 hours a week and can't get to work and are losing their jobs

:30:09.:30:11.

for their commute, or not seeing their families. Families. It is

:30:12.:30:16.

fair. Andy McDonald needs to think about all worker, that may belong to

:30:17.:30:20.

a use one that subsidises the Labour Party.

:30:21.:30:24.

What about the company? Do they not take responsibility for the

:30:25.:30:32.

appalling service that they have put out on a daily basis? They have just

:30:33.:30:39.

been penalised by ?13 million, their share under the contract for

:30:40.:30:44.

cancellations. What's been made clear under the independent report

:30:45.:30:48.

is the primary cause of the appalling performance has actually

:30:49.:30:52.

been the unions. The ?13 million is a small proportion of the blame, the

:30:53.:30:57.

big proportion lies with the unions for going on strike where they can't

:30:58.:31:03.

justify it. The new technology has been deemed safe. Its on-board on

:31:04.:31:07.

13% of the network and has for decades. The unions reject that and

:31:08.:31:14.

have rejected it continuously. I hosted a debate not long ago where

:31:15.:31:18.

the whole safety argument was challenged. By the unions

:31:19.:31:23.

continually in the way that Andy Macdonald has stated. Until that is

:31:24.:31:27.

resolved, those actions are going to continue. I was one of the people

:31:28.:31:34.

there. At that stage, the unions were demanding that the independent

:31:35.:31:38.

rail safety regulator gave his opinion. I was keen for that as

:31:39.:31:43.

well. He did so and he said it has been used for decades and is safe

:31:44.:31:47.

across the country and safe on Southern rail. As soon as that came

:31:48.:31:51.

out, it was deemed to be a whitewash. There is always just

:31:52.:31:56.

another excuse as to why the strike is going on. There's no logic in

:31:57.:32:01.

this. It leads me to believe that that is collusion between the unions

:32:02.:32:05.

and labour. Andy Macdonald has rejected that. They are messing

:32:06.:32:10.

around with my constituents lives and it is incredibly shellfish. The

:32:11.:32:15.

report did find that union action was the primary cause for the

:32:16.:32:20.

network failure. The unions have called it a slap on the wrist. Do

:32:21.:32:28.

you accept that? Who paid him? Who paid Chris Gibb? GTR. He supposed to

:32:29.:32:38.

be independent. How are you independent if you are doing a

:32:39.:32:44.

report into an organisation that was paying you? You quoted from the

:32:45.:32:46.

reporter said it was a thing earlier. There are lots of good

:32:47.:32:52.

things in the report. Except for the things you don't agree with. I

:32:53.:32:57.

really do think. Let's have an honest think about this. The ?13.4

:32:58.:33:04.

million fine, isn't it remarkable that a good deal of that is recycled

:33:05.:33:07.

into doing what we've been asking all along. More people on trains.

:33:08.:33:13.

Why don't the government just wake up and make sure there is a guard on

:33:14.:33:17.

every train and get this strike over. People are talking about the

:33:18.:33:24.

page offer rejected, this is about safety and security and access

:33:25.:33:28.

ability. They want the best railway in the world and it is about time we

:33:29.:33:33.

had sensible conversations about it. It is also about pay. To be clear.

:33:34.:33:39.

Hugh Merriman, what made the government take so long to act on

:33:40.:33:45.

this? I've been through the contract with the transport select committee

:33:46.:33:49.

and it is quite a technical clause. Southern said it was down to the

:33:50.:33:54.

fault of industrial action. The government has demonstrated that

:33:55.:33:58.

some of the causes were Southern. I'm critical of both sides. My

:33:59.:34:02.

problem with the Labour Party position is that it is completely

:34:03.:34:06.

one-sided. They are showing they are not a government in waiting because

:34:07.:34:10.

they are sticking up for well-paid individuals rather than passengers

:34:11.:34:14.

who rely on the trains to get to work and to see their families.

:34:15.:34:16.

Thank you very much. The Shadow Chancellor,

:34:17.:34:19.

John McDonnell, recently said a million people take to the streets

:34:20.:34:22.

to change the Government, and endorsed a so-called

:34:23.:34:27.

"Day of Rage" in London. Well, as you might have noticed,

:34:28.:34:29.

the Government is still in place. So do protests and placard-waving

:34:30.:34:32.

really change anything? We'll discuss that in a moment,

:34:33.:34:34.

but first, let's have a look at a few of the more memorable

:34:35.:34:37.

demonstrations from recent years. # Welcome to the future

:34:38.:34:40.

of your world...# Police in capitals across Europe

:34:41.:34:53.

have taken no chances, turning out in force to keep

:34:54.:34:57.

a tight rein on demonstrations against alleged corporate greed

:34:58.:34:59.

and government cuts. A protest today in the city,

:35:00.:35:04.

marketed as a day of rage at the Government,

:35:05.:35:07.

slightly underwhelmed. # My friends, my dear,

:35:08.:35:10.

my love, my God... Angela Merkel chose liberal

:35:11.:35:21.

Hamburg, the gateway It's a decision

:35:22.:35:24.

she may be regretting. # There'll be trouble

:35:25.:35:33.

when the kidz come out.# We're joined now by Matthew Bolton

:35:34.:35:35.

from Citizens UK - that's a group that helps community

:35:36.:35:38.

groups organise to bring He's published a new book

:35:39.:35:40.

called How to Resist. And Jamie Kelsey-Fry

:35:41.:35:46.

is a contributing editor at New Internationalist magazine,

:35:47.:35:48.

and a supporter of various protests including

:35:49.:35:50.

the anti-capitalist Occupy Matthew, you described the recent

:35:51.:36:02.

day of rage in tended to shut down London as indulgent and useless.

:36:03.:36:08.

Why? For two reasons. Firstly, it gives protest a bad name. Firstly

:36:09.:36:15.

because it is ineffective, there is no power analysis, 300 activists are

:36:16.:36:18.

not going to bring down the government. By its own stated aims,

:36:19.:36:24.

it's an effective. It's also opportunistic. We are working around

:36:25.:36:29.

North Kensington, residents associations, at that time, talking

:36:30.:36:38.

about the fire at Grenfell Tower, what the people wanted was to know

:36:39.:36:42.

who died and who survived and have safe accommodation and to have their

:36:43.:36:47.

voices heard. They felt that cause had been hijacked by external

:36:48.:36:52.

activists. In that sense, you are not helping the campaign, some of

:36:53.:36:56.

them that you support because you don't achieve your stated aim to

:36:57.:37:00.

bring down the government. Many protests happened in the past that I

:37:01.:37:04.

fear have put people off the cause rather than getting them to support.

:37:05.:37:10.

But loads of protests have changed the course of history. Mass

:37:11.:37:25.

mobilisations. You can't cut, purely a outraged about tax avoidance. The

:37:26.:37:32.

occupier movement globally changed the dialogue about inequality.

:37:33.:37:36.

That's incredibly valuable. What do you think about changing the

:37:37.:37:40.

narrative, even if you can't point to specific policies and governments

:37:41.:37:45.

haven't been brought down but you change the political debate? I'm

:37:46.:37:48.

absolutely in favour of protest. There's lots of things people are

:37:49.:37:53.

angry about. I do agree that changing the narrative is important

:37:54.:37:57.

but hopefully we are making a tangible difference to people's

:37:58.:38:02.

lives. Think about the living wage campaign, the great benefit is

:38:03.:38:06.

something specific and tangible to address to each employer. Do you pay

:38:07.:38:13.

?9 75 in London? Can you create a political consensus around the need

:38:14.:38:17.

for higher wage? What are they as impactful and as big in terms of

:38:18.:38:23.

just doing them, seeing them? Just a volume of people? Does it have the

:38:24.:38:30.

power? I think you need both. Seeing the women's march in January when 21

:38:31.:38:35.

million people marched worldwide. A fantastic demonstration of

:38:36.:38:39.

solidarity, raising awareness, what do you do after the March? How do

:38:40.:38:43.

you turn that motivation into something tangible to get your

:38:44.:38:49.

employer to put best practice into practice. That is how people can

:38:50.:38:55.

make a difference. Isn't it to go for something achievable? If you

:38:56.:38:58.

say, let's get rid of the government, get rid of Donald Trump,

:38:59.:39:01.

those things don't happen because of a March. But getting votes for women

:39:02.:39:08.

did happen. Let's change the dialogue about 1% and the 99%. That

:39:09.:39:14.

did happen. If you're looking at a couple of people with placards,

:39:15.:39:21.

notoriously, that is ineffective. So what is the point? Because there are

:39:22.:39:29.

types of protests that do. In 2013, people went down to West Sussex and

:39:30.:39:33.

we managed to controversial eyes fracking over the period of five

:39:34.:39:38.

days whereas before people believed David Cameron when he said it is

:39:39.:39:43.

safe when it is not. Doesn't that underline the argument that it is

:39:44.:39:47.

better to go for I particular policy objective? They are both important.

:39:48.:39:52.

What we would like the viewers to come away from this segment with is,

:39:53.:39:57.

we've got to go out and do something. Globally, there is a

:39:58.:40:01.

historical total distrust in politics -- distrust. You can't just

:40:02.:40:08.

about every five years and that is you done, we want people to be

:40:09.:40:11.

political everyday. There are so many ways of doing that. We are

:40:12.:40:15.

looking at government after governments that just fail is. How

:40:16.:40:21.

did you feel about Jamie's move when he sat outside St Paul's Cathedral

:40:22.:40:25.

during the occupied protests? Was it worthwhile? The occupier movement

:40:26.:40:30.

was exactly the right motive and moment but I feel it was missing a

:40:31.:40:37.

certain method. Within the energy created there, it was front-page

:40:38.:40:41.

news for weeks but because the stated aims of the protest remained

:40:42.:40:48.

quite broad, an end to inequality, we do want that. But everybody is

:40:49.:40:52.

responsible for that and no one is responsible. How can we target that

:40:53.:40:56.

to a specific decision-makers and that is what the book offers a

:40:57.:41:01.

method for. But putting your money where your mouth is is important.

:41:02.:41:05.

Rather than just waiting for election. Isn't he and others who go

:41:06.:41:11.

out on big marches with big stated aims, like Occupy, bringing those to

:41:12.:41:20.

the attention of politicians? For many people. Occupy is mainly

:41:21.:41:24.

movement. Absolute rubbish. You weren't there. You may say that

:41:25.:41:35.

about it isn't true. The 1%, for example. You think that the share of

:41:36.:41:40.

income going up and up, in fact, income and equality is at a 30 year

:41:41.:41:46.

low. What is wrong with the middle-class protesting? There is

:41:47.:41:56.

nothing wrong but if you want a revolution, you want middle-class

:41:57.:42:00.

guys to go to hamburg, jetsetting around bringing down capitalism,

:42:01.:42:07.

that is not particularly practical. There are many more practical ways

:42:08.:42:14.

you can support things. You are out of touch with what was said, mate.

:42:15.:42:19.

Who were the majority of people involved? There is a play about Cap

:42:20.:42:26.

NICE occupier, about one homeless guy who woke up on the steps of

:42:27.:42:33.

Saint Pauls. In the play, he talks about the composite of the people

:42:34.:42:36.

living there. He said it was like being in prison. There was every

:42:37.:42:43.

class of this society there. That is what was extraordinary. We couldn't

:42:44.:42:48.

turn away people who are homeless or had alcohol issues, we had to

:42:49.:42:52.

embrace them. There is nothing wrong with middle-class activists but the

:42:53.:42:57.

question is, do we have someone who is directly affected by the issue at

:42:58.:43:04.

the heart of protest? That was the issue after Grenfell Tower. The

:43:05.:43:12.

living wage campaign was the voice of children of people earning less

:43:13.:43:18.

than the living wage. Look at Jeremy Corbyn's fans and momentum. Look at

:43:19.:43:24.

his rallies. They were accused of being middle class. Look how the

:43:25.:43:29.

visuals affected his popularity. In a way, it is irrelevant. The

:43:30.:43:36.

mainstream media underestimated it, we didn't. We were there all the

:43:37.:43:43.

time. He was speaking about the many and not the few. Where have you

:43:44.:43:49.

heard that before? The 99% and the 1%. If Jeremy Corbyn became Prime

:43:50.:43:53.

Minister and didn't enact some parts of his manifesto, for example

:43:54.:44:02.

getting rid of Jewish and fees. -- tuition fees. Would you go out and

:44:03.:44:11.

protest? Absolutely. The manifesto is important. But it is important to

:44:12.:44:18.

have local community to force politics to grow up in the 21st

:44:19.:44:22.

century and stop representing the one present. One of the risks here

:44:23.:44:28.

and the reason for writing the book is a million more 80-21 -year-olds

:44:29.:44:36.

floated in 2017 and they did in 2015. There's a real problem that

:44:37.:44:41.

cynicism and rage may be the product rather than channelling that

:44:42.:44:44.

interaction. It's about democracy not being something you just watch

:44:45.:44:46.

on television. Thank you very much. Now, it's Bastille Day and,

:44:47.:45:00.

as always in Paris, the President oversees Europe's oldest military

:45:01.:45:02.

parade along the Champs Elysee. Merriman.

:45:03.:45:08.

Donald Trump is in Paris for a two day visit. It is hard to believe it

:45:09.:45:13.

is just over a year since Emmanuel Macron launched his movement. He is

:45:14.:45:17.

President and his party has a majority on the French National

:45:18.:45:18.

Assembly. Let us take a look back. # Does it almost feel that

:45:19.:45:24.

nothing changed at all? # Does it almost feel that

:45:25.:46:02.

you've been here before # Now how am I going to be

:46:03.:46:10.

an optimist about this? I'm joined now by Alexandre Holroyd,

:46:11.:46:33.

he's a member of the French National Assembly

:46:34.:46:36.

for the Northern Europe region. Congratulations and welcome to the

:46:37.:46:41.

daily politics, it sin credible a party that didn't really exist a few

:46:42.:46:47.

years ago, is now in charge of France, with your President Emmanuel

:46:48.:46:50.

Macron, but that also meanses that expectations are going to be very

:46:51.:46:53.

high, how are you going to manage them? They are very high, and I

:46:54.:47:00.

think that the substance is the change, the fact we have done this

:47:01.:47:04.

incredible thing of building a party from scratch in a year, and of

:47:05.:47:07.

winning over the presidency and the National Assembly in a year speaks

:47:08.:47:10.

volume about how much the French want change, so we have a sense of

:47:11.:47:14.

responsibility. We know we don't have a choice and we are going to

:47:15.:47:18.

get to work. We got cracking the day after the election, I was in Paris

:47:19.:47:22.

by 9.00 the day after and we have passed our first law, which is the

:47:23.:47:27.

liberalisation of the labour market. Yes, you could argue, that there was

:47:28.:47:33.

a low turn out, relatively low in the Parliamentary election, that

:47:34.:47:36.

there is disenchantment. You say there is a big mandate for change,

:47:37.:47:39.

and for Emmanuel Macron that is true. How do you deal with that that

:47:40.:47:42.

exists because there was a low turn out in the Parliamentary election?

:47:43.:47:47.

So there was a low turn out in the Parliamentary election, although,

:47:48.:47:50.

for a lot of other countries including the UK that would be quite

:47:51.:47:57.

high, what is clear is that there's been a lack of explanation of what

:47:58.:48:01.

policy makers are doing in past years or decades and one of the

:48:02.:48:04.

first decisions that Emmanuel Macron took was to go in front of Congress,

:48:05.:48:10.

which both Houses of Parliament to explain what the vision, the

:48:11.:48:14.

direction of travel is, that is very important. Have do a better job.

:48:15.:48:22.

Press December sores have tried to reform France and the labour laws

:48:23.:48:26.

there and have failed. In part because of the strength of the

:48:27.:48:30.

union, and also Parliamentary opposition, in the past, how are you

:48:31.:48:33.

going to deal with that fight that will come? We will deal with that

:48:34.:48:38.

fight. There were two main big difference, the first is that we

:48:39.:48:42.

have been elected on a mandate that outlined what we were doing n detail

:48:43.:48:47.

of the procedure, we won both elections on that programme which

:48:48.:48:51.

never changed, from the moment we launched the movement to the moment

:48:52.:48:58.

we got in office. That is different to what we did before. So there is a

:48:59.:49:04.

difference of procedure, the second thing is we want to talk to the

:49:05.:49:09.

unions, there has never been... That is a novel thing. Politics talking

:49:10.:49:16.

to unions. It is in France. We have had over 60 meets between the Prime

:49:17.:49:21.

Minister and the union, we are negotiating every step with the

:49:22.:49:24.

union, sop of the unions who have been opposed to past reform, today

:49:25.:49:28.

are supporting the reforms or at least working with Government to go

:49:29.:49:32.

in the right direction. Let us talk about Trump, because you have beaten

:49:33.:49:37.

the UK to it, you have got the American President in town for those

:49:38.:49:40.

Bastille Day celebration, is Emmanuel Macron embracing Donald

:49:41.:49:43.

Trump? Natural is not the way I would put it. 100 years ago, if I

:49:44.:49:51.

remember it was the 6th April 1917, the Americans entered the First

:49:52.:49:55.

World War and they sent troops which died in battlefield in northern

:49:56.:49:59.

France. This was 100 years ago and this 14th July, like every 14th July

:50:00.:50:04.

we have foreign troops which march alongside French troops. This year

:50:05.:50:07.

it is the American troops in memory of this alliance that was again,

:50:08.:50:13.

sort of rekindled in the Second World War, it was only natural we

:50:14.:50:18.

would receive the head of state. We have lots of common naturalties with

:50:19.:50:24.

the US, working on terrorism, global security, Emmanuel Macron has been

:50:25.:50:29.

clear on the difference, for instance on the Paris accord and

:50:30.:50:32.

with this discourse of between long-standing allies and allies that

:50:33.:50:37.

will remain far after Emmanuel Macron subpoena President and far

:50:38.:50:41.

after Donald Trump, we have to keep in mind what we have in common

:50:42.:50:44.

rather than what separates us. We will come on to Brexit in a moment,

:50:45.:50:48.

what do you think of Emmanuel Macron, and his chances of success?

:50:49.:50:54.

I think he is coming across as Trumpesque, his mask is slipping as

:50:55.:50:57.

this liberal darling, at least in the UK, because we have seen him

:50:58.:51:01.

making France speeches from Versailles, not talking to the

:51:02.:51:05.

press, saying his thoughts are too complex. Comparing himself to

:51:06.:51:09.

Jupiter. That will make people's opinions of him change. People in

:51:10.:51:16.

this country who love centrists, a bit confused by some of the

:51:17.:51:20.

symbolism he is giving off. Do you think he is coming off as a bit

:51:21.:51:25.

grand. He has new politicians of course, who have never been in

:51:26.:51:29.

elected office. It looks and feel different. Does he look and feel

:51:30.:51:33.

that different when you see him in Versailles. I think he does. The

:51:34.:51:39.

French need this drama, they need this direction, in a country which

:51:40.:51:43.

is, really doesn't know where to go, you have somebody who created a

:51:44.:51:48.

party out of his own momentum. It is an incredible thing to watch, the

:51:49.:51:51.

creation from nothing, of a party not just won the presidency but went

:51:52.:51:57.

on to take the Parliament as well. And I think, right now, where

:51:58.:52:00.

leadership is nowhere, and in Britain we are lacking leadership

:52:01.:52:04.

too, France has managed to produce someone who has won the confidence

:52:05.:52:09.

of the country. I would allow him to be big headed. He is sat next to

:52:10.:52:13.

Trump, thumbs up, and he fetes away with it. He made his comment about

:52:14.:52:20.

the Paris Agreement, he said Macron, I want to make the planet great

:52:21.:52:28.

again, mocking a parody of Donald Trump saying he wants to make

:52:29.:52:32.

America great again. He made that video addressing the American people

:52:33.:52:34.

about the terrible President, but look at him now, he is Trump's new

:52:35.:52:39.

best friend. What about Brexit, what does Emmanuel Macron... He doesn't

:52:40.:52:43.

compare himself to Jupiter, that is the press who cap pairs him to be

:52:44.:52:47.

Jupiter. Thank you for that point of orrer. Would he object to that

:52:48.:52:52.

comparison. What he did in front of Parliament is what has been lacking

:52:53.:52:55.

in France, which is give a direction and sense of where the vision is

:52:56.:53:01.

going. It's form of the constitution, it is addressing both

:53:02.:53:04.

Houses of Parliament to show where we are going, that is what the

:53:05.:53:06.

French want to here, a description of what is going ho happen and the

:53:07.:53:10.

reasons why we are doing the reforms which is sometimes quite hard. Is he

:53:11.:53:14.

a fan of Brexit? I don't think he is a fan or a non-fan of Brexit. He is

:53:15.:53:22.

a pro European, we campaign on a very pro European platform. We

:53:23.:53:25.

support the Commission's effort to have a common European position an

:53:26.:53:31.

we will stick by it, which is to support the European Commission in

:53:32.:53:33.

its effort to negotiate with the UK. It is is a question I am often

:53:34.:53:38.

asked, what I often answer is Brexit is not as much of an issue in France

:53:39.:53:45.

as it is here. Accept he wants to push for closer cooperation between

:53:46.:53:49.

the Euro-zone, he is talking about Democratic Convention, what are

:53:50.:53:54.

they? So this is the way we developed the national programme,

:53:55.:53:57.

which is the association of citizens talking, because we think what

:53:58.:54:01.

Europe needs now is to bring back citizens into the vision of what

:54:02.:54:05.

Europe should come. We would have to understand what they expect from

:54:06.:54:09.

Europe, what they desire Europe to be, which is what we have lost track

:54:10.:54:13.

of, and associated that with professionals, to come up with a

:54:14.:54:18.

sort of more constitutional vision of what it is rather than sort of,

:54:19.:54:23.

sort of grass root vision. We have to let you go. Happy Bastille Day.

:54:24.:54:25.

Time now to find out the answer to our quiz.

:54:26.:54:29.

The question was, what was written on the back of the Arsenal

:54:30.:54:31.

shirt Jeremy Corbyn gave Michel Barnier yesterday?

:54:32.:54:33.

or d) Seumas, I'm not sure this is a great idea.

:54:34.:54:41.

It has to be Seamus. That is the funniest line. It the funniest but

:54:42.:54:54.

not the right answer. Barnier? I am afraid it was just plain old

:54:55.:54:59.

Barnier. Do you think he was pleased to receive the shirt? He gave Jeremy

:55:00.:55:06.

Corbyn a poster. Who did better? That was a lovely shirt.

:55:07.:55:12.

So our relationship with Brussels once more dominated the news agenda,

:55:13.:55:16.

let's take a look at the week in 60 seconds.

:55:17.:55:20.

Theresa May marked her one year in office by welcoming the Spanish king

:55:21.:55:27.

and Queen, and she finally admitted that the election had cause her some

:55:28.:55:33.

grief. Yes, a little tear. Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn hot-footed it to

:55:34.:55:38.

Brussels, where he gave an Arsenal shirt to the EU Brexit negotiator

:55:39.:55:45.

Michel Barnier. Emily Thornberry and Damian Green deputised at Prime

:55:46.:55:48.

Minister's Questions. The first secretary didn't get the Prime

:55:49.:55:53.

Minister's memo, you are supposed to be building consensus, men, and if

:55:54.:55:59.

we... The Brexit secretary, David Davis, unveiled the Government's

:56:00.:56:01.

Repeal Bill and called on other parties to support it, but Labour,

:56:02.:56:05.

the SNP and the Liberal Democrats have threatened to veto it. More

:56:06.:56:09.

bridge building required. Speaking of which Foreign Secretary

:56:10.:56:13.

Boris Johnson had a message for the EU over divorce payments And I think

:56:14.:56:18.

go whistle is an entirely appropriate expression.

:56:19.:56:29.

Well, that was the week in 60 seconds, Barnier has said the clock

:56:30.:56:35.

is ticking, do you expect much progress next week. It doesn't look

:56:36.:56:41.

like David Davis and his colleagues are being... Boris Johnson said the

:56:42.:56:46.

negotiators can go whistle about the divorce bill they have to pay. I

:56:47.:56:50.

don't know if they will get far unless they agree to pay some of the

:56:51.:56:54.

bill. It is going to be down to money? I have spoken to a number of

:56:55.:56:59.

Tory MPs, who are beginning to feel that we could pay, to get the sort

:57:00.:57:05.

of access and continuing relationship with things like

:57:06.:57:08.

Europol and so on and so forth I think it is about money. This is a

:57:09.:57:15.

typical street stall haggle. The EU saying we want this money and Boris

:57:16.:57:20.

is saying you will not get any. There will be something between the

:57:21.:57:23.

two. That will continue once we left? No, I think it will be a one

:57:24.:57:28.

off payment and might be bigger than we would have liked but to get out

:57:29.:57:31.

the EU is the ultimate objective. It wouldn't be a failure if we end up

:57:32.:57:34.

paying more than we expected. Do you see that or do you think payments

:57:35.:57:38.

for certain things will continue, aside from the sort of divorce bill?

:57:39.:57:42.

That would be the sensible thing to do, like Frazer said, I don't see

:57:43.:57:45.

any evidence of that happening. Theresa May has gone in for the

:57:46.:57:50.

hardest exit she possibly can, why would she begin softening it now.

:57:51.:57:55.

She sees it as a negotiating stance, talking of which, Jeremy Corbyn,

:57:56.:58:01.

there with Michelle barn yes, Nicola Sturgeon, they are having their own

:58:02.:58:05.

meetings, do they make a difference? They do, any opportunity the SNP

:58:06.:58:09.

gets to put a spoke in the wheels it will take, and a Labour

:58:10.:58:14.

administration, in Wales, SNP in Edinburgh, if they get a thing on

:58:15.:58:19.

this, it will be one more rod for Theresa May's back. The transition

:58:20.:58:24.

period, there is debate Liam Fox implying it could be a few months,

:58:25.:58:29.

others saying two years. This is another example of minister making

:58:30.:58:34.

it up as they go along, Labour keeps accusing the Cabinet of doing. It

:58:35.:58:38.

looks like they are doing that, I think that don't have a queue

:58:39.:58:42.

excited line on this. There is a long hot summer to go ahead.

:58:43.:58:47.

Thank you for being my guests of the day. Andrew will be back on Sunday

:58:48.:58:53.

on BBC One at 11 with the Sunday Politics and guests will include the

:58:54.:58:56.

international Trade Secretary Liam Fox. Bye.

:58:57.:58:57.

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