13/07/2017 Daily Politics


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13/07/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by former secretary of state Douglas Alexander. They look at the Repeal Bill and the new Select Committee chairs and assess the state of Isis.


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LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:46.:00:49.

The first of eight bills paving the way for Brexit is published but

:00:50.:00:52.

Labour are already saying they'll vote against it.

:00:53.:00:54.

Is this the start of a long legislative battle

:00:55.:00:56.

Theresa May describes her reaction to the general election result,

:00:57.:01:00.

will displaying emotion help dispel her robotic image?

:01:01.:01:03.

Jeremy Corbyn's in Brussels for a date with the EU's chief

:01:04.:01:08.

Would the Labour leader strike a better deal

:01:09.:01:11.

And Teutonic delight over Brexit, yes, why the Germans are looking

:01:12.:01:26.

forward to calling their jam "marmalade".

:01:27.:01:32.

Don't say that we don't cover the big stories here on the Daily

:01:33.:01:35.

Politics! All that in the next hour

:01:36.:01:44.

and with us for the duration today, the man who helped Ed Miliband lose

:01:45.:01:47.

the 2015 General Election, when he also lost his

:01:48.:01:50.

own seat as an MP. But as losing the is

:01:51.:01:52.

the new winning I suppose Douglas Alexander,

:01:53.:01:55.

welcome to the programme. First this morning,

:01:56.:02:05.

the government is publishing the first of eight bills that

:02:06.:02:07.

will pave the way for Britain's departure from the European Union,

:02:08.:02:10.

that's less than 21 months a way now and there's lots of legislative

:02:11.:02:13.

work to do before then. The European Union Bill,

:02:14.:02:21.

known as the Repeal Bill, is a key part of the government's

:02:22.:02:23.

Brexit strategy. It will repeal the 1972

:02:24.:02:25.

European Communities Act which took Britain into the EU and remove

:02:26.:02:28.

the supremacy of Brussels law. Brexit Secretary David Davis said

:02:29.:02:30.

the Bill "is one of the most that has ever passed

:02:31.:02:33.

through Parliament". He has asked MPs across the house

:02:34.:02:46.

to work together to deliver it. The Labour party say they'll vote

:02:47.:02:50.

against the legislation unless there The bill is not expected to be

:02:51.:03:05.

debated in the Commons or the Lords until the autumn. Labour's Shadow

:03:06.:03:11.

Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, says in its current form, the Bill gives

:03:12.:03:14.

ministers "sweeping delegated powers" which would allow the

:03:15.:03:16.

government to alter legislation with "minimal parliamentary scrutiny."

:03:17.:03:18.

The bill is not expected to be debated until the autumn, but will

:03:19.:03:24.

need to be passed by the time the UK leaves the EU - scheduled for March

:03:25.:03:27.

2019. And I'm joined now by David Jones - who was until recently a

:03:28.:03:29.

minister in the Department for Exiting the EU. Douglas Alexander,

:03:30.:03:31.

an essential part of this process is the so-called repeal Bill, and they

:03:32.:03:35.

are now threatening to vote against it having said they would vote for

:03:36.:03:39.

it. They accept the principle that Britain will leave the European

:03:40.:03:42.

Union but they are not convinced by David Davis's reckoning that this is

:03:43.:03:48.

one of the most important pieces of legislation to come before the

:03:49.:03:51.

parliament in decades. They are doing their job to make sure they

:03:52.:03:54.

scrutinise this bill, make sure it is the best possible bill given the

:03:55.:03:59.

circumstances. Not trying to frustrate the Brexit process, they

:04:00.:04:03.

may not have the numbers, but if I voted this build them, what would

:04:04.:04:07.

happen? It is ultimately in the hands of the government, the Labour

:04:08.:04:11.

Party leadership has taken quite a lot of heat in recent months for not

:04:12.:04:16.

seeking to circumvent or to deny the vote that was cast on the 23rd of

:04:17.:04:21.

June last year, at the same time as saying, there are significant

:04:22.:04:23.

changes which can and should be made to the bill, the Henry VIII powers,

:04:24.:04:27.

the way that devolution is treated, there is significant principles

:04:28.:04:32.

embedded in this legislation which deserve to be scrutinised by

:04:33.:04:36.

Parliament. Makes it a lot more difficult, if you face war from the

:04:37.:04:39.

Labour Party, given it is a hung parliament. It does, the point is

:04:40.:04:46.

that the Labour Party supported the notification of withdrawal bill, the

:04:47.:04:48.

legislation that led to triggering Article 50, having done that, I

:04:49.:04:53.

think they have a duty to act positively towards this bill. Their

:04:54.:05:00.

job... Their job is to scrutinise it, they don't need to accept...

:05:01.:05:05.

They may accept the principle. The Labour spokesman this morning said

:05:06.:05:09.

they do, it is then their job, the bits they don't like, they are

:05:10.:05:13.

entitled to vote against it. I'm not sure if Keir Starmer sounds like he

:05:14.:05:16.

is accepting the principal at the moment but moving beyond that, yes,

:05:17.:05:21.

we accepted must be scrutinised, one of the most positive things recently

:05:22.:05:23.

was the House of Lords Constitution committee report which suggested a

:05:24.:05:28.

way forward in terms of scrutiny. I think that is a really good basis

:05:29.:05:33.

for going forward, having joined committees on both houses scrutinise

:05:34.:05:36.

in the legislation before its cause is put forward. I think that is a

:05:37.:05:41.

really good basis for discussion. The shadow Brexit Minister has put

:05:42.:05:46.

the government on notice, that's a quote, leader of the Liberal

:05:47.:05:48.

Democrats says the repeal Bill will " be hell", you must be pleased you

:05:49.:05:56.

are not in the department any longer. There are complications not

:05:57.:05:59.

being in the Department, I think the Commons of -- comments of Tim Farron

:06:00.:06:04.

are ridiculous, to suggest the process will be held. Politicians on

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all sides will have to do scrutinise this, Conservative colleagues will

:06:11.:06:14.

want to do that as well, but to talk in terms of these effectively

:06:15.:06:18.

wrecking it, that is irresponsible. Should Labour vote against the

:06:19.:06:22.

second reading, I can see why in committee, separate committee, down

:06:23.:06:25.

on the floor of the house, lots of amendment is... But should they vote

:06:26.:06:32.

against the second reading? I think that largely depends upon what kind

:06:33.:06:35.

of commitment is the minister is given in the course of the second

:06:36.:06:38.

reading debate, I think it is regrettable that it was not

:06:39.:06:42.

published in draft so there could be pre-legislative scrutiny, a lot of

:06:43.:06:45.

these issues could have been resolved if there was a

:06:46.:06:47.

pre-legislative draft produced, that will have to happen now in the

:06:48.:06:53.

course of the passage of the bill. The government is ready to listen on

:06:54.:06:58.

Brexit, David Davis says MPs must work together, the Prime Minister

:06:59.:07:00.

keeps on asking the Labour Party for ideas and so on(!) but where are as

:07:01.:07:05.

the government given concessions on this? -- where has the government.

:07:06.:07:12.

We have not seen it published yet. They could have given concessions

:07:13.:07:16.

incorporated in the bill and we have no indication that is the case. So

:07:17.:07:19.

far it has not been published, clearly, the government have made

:07:20.:07:23.

clear that they are happy and anxious to discuss the way forward

:07:24.:07:27.

with other parties, the Prime Minister could not have been

:07:28.:07:30.

clearer. This issue of the Henry VIII powers, which means that you

:07:31.:07:36.

can alter legislation, by a statutory instrument, other than

:07:37.:07:42.

legislation, you can see why people will be wary of that. On the other

:07:43.:07:47.

hand, we have only until March 2019 to get all of this stuff onto the

:07:48.:07:52.

British legal framework. Surely, there is no other way of doing this,

:07:53.:07:57.

it is massive. My sense is that there is difficulty in incorporating

:07:58.:08:02.

many thousands of statutory instruments onto the statute book,

:08:03.:08:07.

so that we move beyond March 29, has the government in this bill given

:08:08.:08:10.

adequate assurance that there will not be a continuing capability for a

:08:11.:08:13.

very significant piece of legislation to be amended by

:08:14.:08:15.

statutory instruments. -- March 2019. Thereby enabling, if you like,

:08:16.:08:20.

not taking back control by Parliament but a loss of

:08:21.:08:24.

parliamentary scrutiny. Because these editor, rather than... Yes,

:08:25.:08:31.

indeed. What you say -- because being executive. -- because the

:08:32.:08:37.

executive. They cannot be exercised in definitely, I return to the

:08:38.:08:41.

questions on the House of Lords Constitution committee,

:08:42.:08:43.

pre-legislative scrutiny, power should be exercised only on certain

:08:44.:08:48.

terms. I'm glad you brought that up, for the second time, the Lords

:08:49.:08:53.

report, on this, because they said the repeal Bill will involve massive

:08:54.:08:57.

transfer of legislative competence from parliaments to government. It

:08:58.:09:02.

could potentially... They have said that it will. That is why the

:09:03.:09:08.

scrutiny process is so important. The suggestion by the House of Lords

:09:09.:09:13.

committee has said there should be joint scrutiny, before it came

:09:14.:09:16.

through, and they suggested constraining the powers, by applying

:09:17.:09:20.

it only to the extent necessary to correct the British statute book and

:09:21.:09:24.

also to ensure that any thing which was agreed during negotiation

:09:25.:09:28.

process could also be incorporated. I think the government would be

:09:29.:09:31.

willing to listen to those proposals. The head of the National

:09:32.:09:36.

Audit Office, impartial, highly respected civil servant, has said

:09:37.:09:39.

that the Brexit strategy is in danger of falling apart like a

:09:40.:09:43.

chocolate orange. I would have thought a chocolate orange was a

:09:44.:09:46.

particularly well engineered confectionery item. He was comparing

:09:47.:09:52.

it to a cricket bat! Rather more sturdy than a chocolate orange.

:09:53.:09:55.

Having been in the Department, I can confirm that the Department for

:09:56.:10:00.

exiting the European Union is right across Whitehall on this. I did not

:10:01.:10:10.

recognise criticisms remade, it did not reflect any thing I was aware of

:10:11.:10:13.

when I was there. Douglas Alexander, the Labour Party says it wants to

:10:14.:10:17.

now incorporate the European Charter of fundamental rights is. Into UK

:10:18.:10:23.

law. -- European Charter of fundamental rights. Not Straw 's

:10:24.:10:29.

book, but the European Charter, yet this was the charter which Labour

:10:30.:10:33.

said in power would have no more significance than reading the Beano

:10:34.:10:39.

comic, and would not involve Britain, and now we are writing it

:10:40.:10:44.

into UK law. -- Strasbourg. Why is that? That has been included as a

:10:45.:10:48.

request from the Labour Party, because first of all, it has taken

:10:49.:10:53.

on greatest trick forehand significance, in terms of implement

:10:54.:10:56.

rights, there may have been -- that may have been exhibited, but the

:10:57.:11:03.

policy concern is to make sure we do not see a degradation of employment

:11:04.:11:06.

and is and human rights as a consequence of it being written in.

:11:07.:11:15.

Surely if Parliament say that this government were eroding workers'

:11:16.:11:20.

rights, then Labour, they would say it is an outrage, we will reverse

:11:21.:11:26.

that, and get elected on that basis, why do you need... Why do you

:11:27.:11:31.

need... MPs were elected to this Parliament on a mandate not have a

:11:32.:11:34.

Great Repeal Bill but a bill that would guarantee all of those human,

:11:35.:11:39.

social and employment rights... Why do we need a European Charter to do

:11:40.:11:44.

that? Are we not capable... We already have the jurisdiction of the

:11:45.:11:48.

European Court of Human Rights, based in Strasbourg, and we remained

:11:49.:11:52.

under their jurisdiction. It has been said that will not change, the

:11:53.:11:56.

Tories have said that, Parliament becomes sovereign in these matters,

:11:57.:12:00.

we collect Parliament, why do we need a European Charter? You have

:12:01.:12:05.

had Philip Hammond, increasingly influential Chancellor of the

:12:06.:12:09.

Exchequer, threatening the spectre of a north Atlantic Singapore,

:12:10.:12:13.

implement rights would be reduced. That would be a matter... If the

:12:14.:12:18.

country voted to go that way, fine, in the unlikely event, I would

:12:19.:12:22.

suggest, if it doesn't, you can stop that. But the country has voted for

:12:23.:12:27.

Labour MPs to go that way. Why give all of this power to lawyers, do you

:12:28.:12:31.

trust politicians? Parliament is the forum in which these matters will be

:12:32.:12:36.

decided. The Charter of fundamental rights is in effect a signposting

:12:37.:12:45.

measure, referring to underlying rights which will not be affected in

:12:46.:12:53.

any way, they will remain. There have been repeated assurances that

:12:54.:12:57.

there will be no degradation of workers' rights. You think it would

:12:58.:13:01.

be wrong to include this? It is unnecessary for the reasons given.

:13:02.:13:05.

We will see, we will see whether or not it is a red line. Don't go away,

:13:06.:13:10.

we are sticking with Europe, for a change(!)

:13:11.:13:12.

Now, it wasn't a prominent feature of the Brexit debate in the run

:13:13.:13:16.

up to the referendum, and most of us had probably never

:13:17.:13:18.

Yet Britain's membership of Euratom, the EU-wide agency that governs

:13:19.:13:22.

the transportation of radioactive materials needed in nuclear energy,

:13:23.:13:24.

research and medicine, has become one of the first major

:13:25.:13:27.

tests for the government's plans for EU withdrawal amongst MPs.

:13:28.:13:33.

Let's talk to our Assistant Political Editor, Norman Smith.

:13:34.:13:38.

what's it all about, Norman? One of Theresa May's key red lines, namely,

:13:39.:13:44.

getting out of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice

:13:45.:13:51.

because this European regulator, comes under the jurisprudence of the

:13:52.:13:54.

European Court of Justice. As we know, Theresa May has said clearly,

:13:55.:14:00.

part of Brexit is insuring it is British courts that decide, and for

:14:01.:14:03.

that reason, she believes we have to leave Euratom and set up our own

:14:04.:14:09.

agency which would come under the authority of which is courts, why

:14:10.:14:14.

this matters is because one, there are all sorts of potential,

:14:15.:14:17.

practical implications in terms of the nuclear industry in Britain, in

:14:18.:14:22.

terms of retaining jobs here, but above all, concerns about what the

:14:23.:14:27.

impact might be on the import of medical isotopes, used for scans and

:14:28.:14:32.

treatments and cancer medicine. The fear is that if we leave, that could

:14:33.:14:34.

be compromised. to do the question is how far will

:14:35.:14:45.

she risk this in order to stick by her red line of ending the authority

:14:46.:14:50.

of the European Court of Justice? Does she faced a potential rebellion

:14:51.:14:55.

on her own backbenchers on this issue? She absolutely does. There

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was a Westminster debate yesterday and I was struck by the range and

:14:59.:15:05.

number of Tory MPs who have deep worries about what this is going to

:15:06.:15:11.

mean and, interestingly, even some Eurosceptics said we are going to

:15:12.:15:14.

have to find a solution to this because this is a problem that will

:15:15.:15:19.

crop up again and again and again. Take, for example, the issue of EU

:15:20.:15:25.

nationals. Who was going to enforce their rights? The European Court or

:15:26.:15:31.

British courts? That conflict will come up repeatedly. His suggestion

:15:32.:15:34.

is you should come up with a tribunal system where you had a

:15:35.:15:37.

British judges sitting alongside European judges but this sort of

:15:38.:15:43.

tension, trying to resolve which court has authority, is going to be

:15:44.:15:47.

central to the whole Brexit process and we are now seeing the sharp end

:15:48.:15:52.

of it with the debate over Euratom. It's quite a good example of

:15:53.:15:55.

something which has never been high profile but is incredibly

:15:56.:16:01.

complicated to resolve whichever way we go and incredibly complicated

:16:02.:16:06.

within the time table because the Article 50 deal, although it doesn't

:16:07.:16:11.

get implemented if it's done until March 2019, will have to be done

:16:12.:16:15.

around November 2018 for ratification. They must be thinking

:16:16.:16:19.

in Whitehall, to get all this done by then will be hard. That's spot

:16:20.:16:24.

on. What is interesting if we cut the government's positional paper on

:16:25.:16:30.

a Euratom and they are proposing a transitional phase. It seems to me

:16:31.:16:33.

Brexit is now moving into transition time because all of these

:16:34.:16:38.

difficulties are piling up and as Michel Barnier said yesterday, the

:16:39.:16:41.

clock is ticking because he basically once this sorted by next

:16:42.:16:45.

autumn. We have this hulking repeal bill about to be published, all

:16:46.:16:48.

sorts of problems and difficulties ahead on that if it can be passed at

:16:49.:16:53.

all and then behind that, seven other bits of Brexit legislation

:16:54.:16:57.

and, frankly, no one believes it's going to be possible to do it in

:16:58.:17:01.

that time frame, so the only by the Government can do it is to buy

:17:02.:17:05.

themselves some time. Use. Talking about a transitional period. The

:17:06.:17:11.

difficulty of that is its like sort of throwing a match into the Tory

:17:12.:17:19.

backbenchers, because Tory backbenchers, talking transition,

:17:20.:17:24.

you're basically trying to scupper Brexit by talking further off, like

:17:25.:17:29.

the CBI talking about this unending process of transition, but that

:17:30.:17:31.

seems to be what the Government will have to do if it's to get any of

:17:32.:17:36.

this through. Thank you for that, fashion wishing -- fascinating

:17:37.:17:39.

stuff. David Jones is still with us,

:17:40.:17:41.

and we are also joined The Royal College of radiologists is

:17:42.:17:51.

warning today that leaving Euratom would impact on the impact of

:17:52.:17:56.

radioisotopes, the chief executive of the industry Association said the

:17:57.:18:00.

transportation of medicalised isotopes could be affected. Are they

:18:01.:18:11.

right? It certainly does. Of course, what we have to do is put our own

:18:12.:18:15.

arrangements in place to replace that, but what we are overlooking is

:18:16.:18:20.

the fact we have no option but to leave the Euratom treaty because it

:18:21.:18:24.

was so closely bound up with EU treaties, legally, that giving

:18:25.:18:27.

notice under Article 50 to leave the EU treaties have the effect of

:18:28.:18:31.

leaving Euratom so what we are now doing is putting in place a bill,

:18:32.:18:36.

coming through in this session of Parliament, and... Can you do that

:18:37.:18:42.

in this Parliament? I believe we have no option but to do so. What do

:18:43.:18:48.

you say to transition, transition, transition? I think there will be a

:18:49.:18:55.

transition period. Implement says you have agreed it but cannot do it

:18:56.:19:01.

in the time. Transition implies that there will remain things that have

:19:02.:19:07.

to be resolved over a period of time after March 2019. That's a different

:19:08.:19:12.

thing. That is a fair comment but we will seek to come to the agreement

:19:13.:19:16.

with the EU negotiations which are going on at the moment and put in

:19:17.:19:23.

place the fermentation period. OK, Ed Vaizey, at PMQs, Damian Green

:19:24.:19:28.

accused even Jock colleagues of scaremongering, because you said

:19:29.:19:33.

Euratom would be a risk to the treaties. Are you scaremongering?

:19:34.:19:42.

No, I didn't know the lady who heads the Royal College of radiologists

:19:43.:19:46.

and I was on a programme of her this morning, the first time I had met

:19:47.:19:50.

are. I was rung up by a newspaper asking for a quote about this and I

:19:51.:19:54.

said absolutely not. I said I'm not going to give you a quote about

:19:55.:19:56.

isotopes because don't know about this issue. I have the joint

:19:57.:20:02.

European tourists, nuclear research facility, that's where I come from,

:20:03.:20:05.

but when I met this lady this morning she showed me the treaty

:20:06.:20:09.

which said medicalised isotopes are covered and it's a tariff issue, I

:20:10.:20:16.

gather, and she is concerned so she has raised these concerns and wants

:20:17.:20:19.

answers from the Government. I come at it from the European research

:20:20.:20:25.

angle where Britain is that the way and received hundreds of millions of

:20:26.:20:29.

pounds worth of investment and created thousands of jobs on the

:20:30.:20:33.

back of it. The Prime Minister included the UK's intention to leave

:20:34.:20:40.

Euratom in a letter back in March. It seems a long time ago now fulfil

:20:41.:20:43.

nothing much has happened since then, nothing I could think of, but

:20:44.:20:48.

it was back in March. Didn't they see this isn't it too late? Yes, I

:20:49.:20:54.

raised it during the Article 50 debate, but the clear message from

:20:55.:20:58.

the Government and I supported them on this, was you couldn't exercise

:20:59.:21:02.

Article 50 without coming out of the Euratom, it had to be a clean

:21:03.:21:06.

Article 50 if you like. If they had tried it, they would be subject to

:21:07.:21:09.

legal action and because it ended up in the European Court of Justice for

:21:10.:21:13.

months on end. Having said that, none of us have seen the legal

:21:14.:21:17.

advice or have a precis of it. The Iraq plenty of people who say the

:21:18.:21:22.

opposite but we are where we are and we defined a way forward. What is

:21:23.:21:27.

coming out in your discussion with David is, please let's not be so

:21:28.:21:31.

ideological about Brexit that anything with a word European is

:21:32.:21:41.

bad. If it means we sustain trade in aviation for example, the European

:21:42.:21:43.

Court of Justice has a role, please don't say we can't have it because

:21:44.:21:47.

it's got the word European. This point about transition, and it was

:21:48.:21:53.

raised in the debate yesterday by David, don't be frightened of

:21:54.:21:56.

transition don't think transition is a Trojan horse to stop a Brexit.

:21:57.:22:00.

Think of it as making sure we get a Brexit which does not cost jobs and

:22:01.:22:06.

investment in this country. I think that's a very fair. As you

:22:07.:22:10.

mentioned, Bill Cash yesterday came up with a suggestion which I think

:22:11.:22:14.

were very sensible. Example, you could have a joint panel of British

:22:15.:22:19.

and EU judges and in fact there are precedents for this. The Canadian EU

:22:20.:22:26.

free trade treaty which was concluded recently, made fraught

:22:27.:22:31.

panel of three, one from each side and an independent. You will need a

:22:32.:22:38.

lot of judges and properly another panel on people's rights. The legal

:22:39.:22:43.

profession is going to be the fastest-growing profession in

:22:44.:22:47.

Britain at this rate. Speaking as a lawyer, that's not a bad thing.

:22:48.:22:49.

LAUGHTER I knew you had a vested interest!

:22:50.:22:58.

You see this as a dripping roast, don't you? Even the boat leave

:22:59.:23:06.

campaign directly, they treated the Tory party keeps making huge

:23:07.:23:09.

misjudgements over what the referendum was about and claims the

:23:10.:23:13.

role of the European Court is not a significant problem -- though to

:23:14.:23:14.

leave. -- vote leave. What we need to do now

:23:15.:23:30.

is make sure we have arrangements and implementation and transitional

:23:31.:23:34.

arrangements, coupled with the dispute resolution system which is

:23:35.:23:37.

acceptable. It's not beyond the wit of man. It's quite complicated,

:23:38.:23:45.

isn't it? Our negotiating strategy is a mess. Secondly, the prior

:23:46.:23:48.

decision by Theresa May that the European Court of Justice would have

:23:49.:23:52.

no further relevance after Article 50 was concluded has a whole series

:23:53.:23:58.

of consequences which were not anticipated at the time. Take David

:23:59.:24:03.

Davis' word for it. He was surprised a red line was drawn on it. I would

:24:04.:24:09.

echo the point that frankly, whether it's the European arrest warrant, or

:24:10.:24:14.

Euratom, there are common-sense solutions which could emerge that

:24:15.:24:19.

our intention with a dim dogmatic approach which said the ECJ is a red

:24:20.:24:26.

line, one of the consequences is if it gives way to a growth industry of

:24:27.:24:30.

new regulatory bodies and judicial oversight, there will be fastly more

:24:31.:24:36.

bureaucracy for lawyers in Britain, hardly the deregulatory initiative

:24:37.:24:41.

the Brexiteers were hoping for. The suggestion is the Prime Minister was

:24:42.:24:46.

being dogmatic but the cases Article 50 provides, as soon as the two

:24:47.:24:51.

years have expired, we cease to be subject to the European treaties.

:24:52.:24:55.

Part of that is being subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court

:24:56.:24:59.

of Justice. What we have to do now is put in new arrangements for

:25:00.:25:06.

resolving disputes. Do you believe this can be done by March 2019? I

:25:07.:25:13.

don't know but in any case, there will be a period after that where

:25:14.:25:18.

these matters are talked about. I agree with you but there is a purely

:25:19.:25:22.

British conceit of this conversation as we get to decide whether we are

:25:23.:25:26.

in the Euratom or not. I agree with that. We have 27 other governments

:25:27.:25:31.

which will decide what the deal will be. The realpolitik of this is a

:25:32.:25:38.

prime ministers not in a strong position. She's in a week position

:25:39.:25:43.

with her own party, and she could well have to give way on this. Isn't

:25:44.:25:49.

that the case? I think a lot of this stems from the rhetoric which happen

:25:50.:25:52.

before the election, no deed is better than a bad deal. And we are

:25:53.:25:57.

going to trade of the world. I would love Britain to trade with the world

:25:58.:26:01.

because this idea we are going to spring fully formed after leaving

:26:02.:26:05.

the European Union and everything is going to be fine is clearly not the

:26:06.:26:09.

case. It's going to be hard pounding in difficult. What a year and four

:26:10.:26:12.

from the payment minister before the election and I hope she does it now,

:26:13.:26:16.

to reach out to people who are very nervous about leaving the EU, access

:26:17.:26:21.

to be voted for Brexit, but there are complex issues. You can't simply

:26:22.:26:26.

pretend it's all going to be sorted by March 2019, they won't be some

:26:27.:26:30.

mess and fuzziness around the edges and you've got to dial down the

:26:31.:26:34.

rhetoric so that's where I think the new position should change the way

:26:35.:26:39.

the primaries to approach as it. That may be watching us to do. Stay

:26:40.:26:43.

with us. We are going to talk a bit more about the Prime Minister.

:26:44.:26:47.

Now stay with us because Theresa May has given an interview

:26:48.:26:50.

She became Prime Minister a year ago today.

:26:51.:26:54.

Here's what she had to say to Emma Barnett.

:26:55.:26:56.

I felt I suppose devastated really because, as I say,

:26:57.:26:58.

I knew the campaign wasn't going perfectly but still

:26:59.:27:00.

the messages I was getting from people I was speaking to,

:27:01.:27:03.

but also the comments we were getting back from a lot

:27:04.:27:06.

of people that were being passed on to me, were that we were going

:27:07.:27:09.

And then you obviously have to just brush yourself down?

:27:10.:27:25.

You've been through that experience, but I was there as leader

:27:26.:27:32.

of the party and Prime Minister and I had a responsibility then to,

:27:33.:27:38.

as we went through the night, to determine what we were going

:27:39.:27:41.

And we're also joined now by Tom Newton Dunn,

:27:42.:27:52.

who interviewed Theresa May in today's Sun.

:27:53.:27:54.

That rhymes. He interviewed her yesterday. He joins us now. Eddie

:27:55.:28:03.

Daisy, is this an attempt to project a more human Theresa May -- Eddie

:28:04.:28:11.

Daisy? I think she is human. I was listening to the interview this

:28:12.:28:14.

morning and I think she is, one of the reasons... Did you just say you

:28:15.:28:21.

think she is human? She is human. Quick recovery. I felt, listening to

:28:22.:28:27.

the radio this morning, she walked on water before the selection. One

:28:28.:28:30.

of the reasons people liked was she is understated and gets on with the

:28:31.:28:38.

job. I think it is perhaps a frustration for her that the modern

:28:39.:28:42.

political scene requires to put it bluntly a lot of demoting in public

:28:43.:28:46.

and she is uncomfortable with that. In private, she is not. I think that

:28:47.:28:55.

I'm giving her my full support. I have said that consistency. I will

:28:56.:28:58.

support her for as long as she wants to remain Prime Minister but, as I

:28:59.:29:02.

said earlier, on an issue like Europe, I would like to see her

:29:03.:29:06.

reach out more and understand the dilemmas and difficulties that the

:29:07.:29:08.

people who don't support the hard Brexit want, but in her manifesto in

:29:09.:29:17.

the election, there was a lot of policies in the driven by her about

:29:18.:29:20.

helping people who don't get a great deal out of life. There was a lot of

:29:21.:29:25.

comment about that, the actual policies were quite hard to

:29:26.:29:32.

understand that some stage. Would not be true to say the people

:29:33.:29:36.

thought they liked, but that's because they didn't know her. The

:29:37.:29:40.

moment they got to know her during the election campaign they decided

:29:41.:29:44.

they didn't really like her. It's hard to analyse. One thing is very

:29:45.:29:48.

clear, it wasn't the best campaign and frankly the manifesto itself was

:29:49.:29:52.

very disappointing. She was the campaign and she was the manifesto.

:29:53.:29:56.

I think to personalise it to that extent is unfair. She did that. All

:29:57.:30:03.

the election proposal at the start of a campaign, the word Conservative

:30:04.:30:10.

was in 6-point type. It was May, she was missing in action, the

:30:11.:30:14.

Chancellor. Other Cabinet ministers were nowhere to be seen. She

:30:15.:30:16.

personalised it. I concede it was not the best of

:30:17.:30:26.

campaigns but the manifesto was what caused us the biggest problems, and

:30:27.:30:29.

I think that anybody campaigning during that election would be able

:30:30.:30:34.

to say that the day after the manifesto was published, things

:30:35.:30:37.

changed. You interviewed the Prime Minister for your paper, did you go

:30:38.:30:41.

to Downing Street? In her study at number ten, yes. How did you find

:30:42.:30:45.

her, was she different, is she trying to be different? She was,

:30:46.:30:51.

your initial analysis is absolutely rights, although you might not

:30:52.:30:54.

necessarily believe it, you read all those tightly constructive words

:30:55.:30:59.

from her, she was straining at the bit to be different. Not answer the

:31:00.:31:02.

same question with the same phraseology 15 times in a row, a

:31:03.:31:06.

favourite trick. Talk in a human language. And also admit humility,

:31:07.:31:11.

but blatantly, where she went wrong in the campaign, whether it was over

:31:12.:31:15.

the manifesto, slightly more accurate description of what went

:31:16.:31:18.

wrong, having a manifesto she completely failed to sell, did not

:31:19.:31:23.

add up to this hard Brexit campaign that she had done. There was an

:31:24.:31:27.

essential untrue with the campaign. You saw with the interview,

:31:28.:31:33.

admitting that she cried, I did not feel brave enough to put that to

:31:34.:31:37.

her, six foot tall, hairy bottomed male political editor, saying, did

:31:38.:31:43.

you weep, Prime Minister, that was beyond me, I slightly kick myself!

:31:44.:31:46.

She is trying desperately hard to be different. It comes incredible

:31:47.:31:52.

difficulty with her because she is so shy. Did she not also, at least

:31:53.:31:56.

implicitly, maybe even more than that, to you, admit that she is

:31:57.:32:01.

unlikely, she will not be leading the Conservative Party into the next

:32:02.:32:05.

election? That came across strongly, repeatedly I asked her, leaving ten

:32:06.:32:09.

to fight another general election as party leader? EU intends to be here

:32:10.:32:14.

in two years' time? One you time? She refused to put any date on it,

:32:15.:32:18.

she made it clear she would not be around in 2022, kept on coming up

:32:19.:32:24.

with the phrase, I want to do the job for a few years, there is a job

:32:25.:32:28.

to do the Fry few more years, a few more years, throughout the

:32:29.:32:33.

transcript. She wants to see Brexit through, it is the mess that she has

:32:34.:32:37.

got us into and she wants to get us out of it but after then she will

:32:38.:32:45.

move off. That is the mood of the backbenches, they don't want her to

:32:46.:32:48.

go now, there is no consensus on who would replace her, but they don't

:32:49.:32:51.

think she should fight another election. Maybe if she survives that

:32:52.:32:57.

long, completing the Article 50 talks would be a natural time to go,

:32:58.:33:03.

that is the mood I picked up, is that accurate? I said that I was a

:33:04.:33:06.

supporter of her as long as she wants to be prime Minster, sounds a

:33:07.:33:10.

bit pompous for me to keep saying that but received wisdom... It does,

:33:11.:33:15.

actually! LAUGHTER. All nodding sagely at that. No

:33:16.:33:21.

disagreement here! Hairy bottomed pomposity. I don't think we need to

:33:22.:33:25.

revisit that! LAUGHTER The truth is, in Westminster, she

:33:26.:33:31.

would see two years seen through Brexit and then depart, that is the

:33:32.:33:36.

mood in the team as well. Good or bad news for Labour that Theresa May

:33:37.:33:44.

stays? I cannot see how she could fight another general election, no

:33:45.:33:49.

slight on his journalism, but the dogs in the street knows you will

:33:50.:33:53.

not, there will be an alternative leader of the Conservative Party who

:33:54.:33:56.

fights the next general election. One more reason she will stay for a

:33:57.:34:00.

couple of years, which Conservative MPs will not tell you, they are

:34:01.:34:04.

terrified of what would happen... She has managed to put this plaster

:34:05.:34:08.

over two wings of the party, badly represented by David and Ed here, if

:34:09.:34:12.

she goes, they are terrified of what they may do to each other, club each

:34:13.:34:17.

other to pieces! Paving the way for another snap election. Which they

:34:18.:34:22.

fear they would lose. Open civil war to the country, presented to the

:34:23.:34:25.

country -- presenting this open civil war to the country would be so

:34:26.:34:28.

detrimental, they would lose. Tough job, she brought it on herself, what

:34:29.:34:33.

in a sense she is being asked to do a form of penance, to deliver Brexit

:34:34.:34:39.

as best she can, to the satisfaction of the majority in the house, but

:34:40.:34:44.

will get none of the benefits of it because when she has done that, she

:34:45.:34:49.

is expected to go. That is quite tough, in the tough world of

:34:50.:34:53.

politics. I disagree, if you are somebody as ambitious as she is, to

:34:54.:34:57.

become Prime Minister, she knows if she goes now, her legacy... She

:34:58.:35:01.

could secure an Article 50 conclusion which would give her a

:35:02.:35:07.

different place. I think that her legacy of taking Britain out of the

:35:08.:35:10.

European Union on successful terms would be great. And then I think

:35:11.:35:15.

that is the time she would consider it, going after that. Can I just

:35:16.:35:20.

say... Very briefly, before we move on. I am a number one member of the

:35:21.:35:26.

David Davis Fanclub, the argument that we would ever... Davy Jones fan

:35:27.:35:29.

club. The notion that we would ever fight between each other. We have

:35:30.:35:35.

this sick inducing unanimity breaking out... Quite distasteful(!)

:35:36.:35:38.

LAUGHTER We are not continuing! LAUGHTER

:35:39.:35:43.

We are not here to help you get along! LAUGHTER

:35:44.:35:47.

But we do. Very nice(!) Now, Jeremy Corbyn is in Brussels

:35:48.:35:53.

today, along with Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon,

:35:54.:36:00.

remember her, and Welsh First

:36:01.:36:03.

Minister Carwyn Jones. They've all been meeting

:36:04.:36:04.

with the European Commission's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier

:36:05.:36:06.

for private talks ahead of the second round of formal

:36:07.:36:08.

negotiations in Brussels next week. Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour would

:36:09.:36:10.

avoid the "megaphone diplomacy" this is what he had to say when he

:36:11.:36:19.

arrived. We're representing 13 million people

:36:20.:36:25.

that voted Labour in the general election and these are crucial

:36:26.:36:28.

negotiations for our country and we are here to ensure

:36:29.:36:30.

that we defend jobs and living standards and try and discover

:36:31.:36:33.

exactly what the views of the European Union are today

:36:34.:36:35.

on the whole process. Let's speak now to our

:36:36.:36:38.

old friend Adam Fleming, Formerly of this parish, now living

:36:39.:36:48.

the high life, hope for us all, indeed! Do we have a clear idea of

:36:49.:37:00.

what his message will be, do we have any idea what the response will be

:37:01.:37:04.

from Michel Barnier? Jeremy Corbyn is here on a twofold mission, number

:37:05.:37:07.

one, he wants to sell Michel Barnier a briefing on his labour flavoured

:37:08.:37:13.

version of Brexit, which Labour say would put far more emphasis on

:37:14.:37:16.

protecting jobs, on the economy, they say they would make unilateral

:37:17.:37:21.

offers EU citizens living in the UK to protect their rights from Day 1,

:37:22.:37:26.

with no negotiations and no quibbles about it at all. I imagine that

:37:27.:37:31.

would be quite popular with Michel Barnier from the European side, that

:37:32.:37:34.

is just the sort of thing the year once the UK to offer European

:37:35.:37:38.

citizens living in the UK. The second part Jeremy Corbyn's mission,

:37:39.:37:43.

revealed in the Labour press release issued to go alongside this visit,

:37:44.:37:47.

they talk about labour being the government in waiting, so this is as

:37:48.:37:52.

much about getting Intel about the "Brexit" negotiations as making

:37:53.:37:56.

Jeremy Corbyn look Prime Minister Arial. Somebody who can strike the

:37:57.:38:00.

world stage, or at least the stage here in Brussels. In terms of what

:38:01.:38:04.

Michel Barnier will think of all of this, EU officials have made it

:38:05.:38:08.

clear, when asked about this, they are happy to welcome Jeremy Corbyn

:38:09.:38:12.

here for a meeting but it was Jeremy Corbyn's invitation, he was the one

:38:13.:38:17.

that asked for the meeting, not the other way around. The next sentence

:38:18.:38:21.

is always, the EU Commission will negotiate with the British

:38:22.:38:26.

government. There will be no Brexit negotiations over lunch in that

:38:27.:38:29.

building between Michel Barnier and Jeremy Corbyn today. I assumed that

:38:30.:38:35.

will be Michel Barnier's message to the Scottish First Minister, and the

:38:36.:38:40.

Welsh First Minister. Yes, Nicola Sturgeon flew in first thing this

:38:41.:38:44.

morning, in the building for less than an hour and then flew back out

:38:45.:38:48.

again, very short meeting. She tweeted to say she had a good

:38:49.:38:51.

conversation with Michel Barnier, I understand she was doing her

:38:52.:38:55.

Scottish flavoured version of Brexit which involves keeping Scotland with

:38:56.:38:59.

excellent access to the single market, the stuff she has been

:39:00.:39:04.

talking about all through the Brexit process, I don't know whether they

:39:05.:39:07.

had much time to discuss the details, does not look likely. Her

:39:08.:39:11.

big contribution today will be when she arrives back in Glasgow airport

:39:12.:39:14.

shortly, she will give her verdict on the Great Repeal Bill, published

:39:15.:39:19.

in London a short while ago. The fact is, Michel Barnier's door is

:39:20.:39:24.

always open, he has made a big thing about speaking to people from all

:39:25.:39:29.

sectors of the economy, all sorts of different places to find out what

:39:30.:39:33.

they think about Brexit but he is very clear again that the only Prime

:39:34.:39:37.

Ministers and presidents and leaders that he takes instruction from our

:39:38.:39:42.

leaders of the 27 EU countries. It will be interesting, given that he

:39:43.:39:47.

is seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon, Carwyn Jones...

:39:48.:39:51.

is seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon, Carwyn I have forgotten

:39:52.:39:56.

his name... Carwyn Jones... I should have known it was Jones, Neil is the

:39:57.:40:01.

Welsh First Minister. Can he avoid the temptation to play politics,

:40:02.:40:06.

because they are more cordial than the government. -- he is the Welsh

:40:07.:40:13.

First Minister. Jeremy Corbyn has tried to up the cordiality for his

:40:14.:40:17.

meeting with Michel Barnier by giving him an Arsenal shirt! Jeremy

:40:18.:40:22.

Corbyn represents where Arsenal has their stadium, in Islington, north

:40:23.:40:25.

London, we think it is because Michel Barnier is French and the

:40:26.:40:29.

manager of Arsenal is French, you and I totally across all the details

:40:30.:40:33.

of football, as you know. What's Arsenal(!) a well-known football

:40:34.:40:40.

team. Very well. It may well be they have similar viewpoint in private,

:40:41.:40:46.

in terms of how Brexit is going forward, Michel Barnier is not going

:40:47.:40:50.

to do any public statements about how these meetings have gone. You

:40:51.:40:55.

probably will not reveal anything about whether he feels that Jeremy

:40:56.:40:58.

Corbyn or Nicola Sturgeon are easier to deal with than David Davis, did a

:40:59.:41:01.

press conference yesterday setting out all the things he wants to deal

:41:02.:41:04.

with looking forward to the next round of talks, darting with David

:41:05.:41:09.

Davis on Monday. I suspect the reason Michel Barnier does not want

:41:10.:41:12.

to make a big song and dance out of the meeting, the simple diplomatic

:41:13.:41:18.

reason that he is Intel cut is David Davis from Britain. -- --

:41:19.:41:29.

interlocutor. I will be over to join you in Brussels soon, to test your

:41:30.:41:32.

expenses account to the very limit(!) LAUGHTER

:41:33.:41:37.

It seems right that they should go to see Michel Barnier, nothing wrong

:41:38.:41:39.

with that. There is nothing wrong with it but it is equally right

:41:40.:41:46.

there is a understanding on the part of Michel Barnier that the British

:41:47.:41:52.

interlocutor is David Davis. Particularly with Jeremy Corbyn, if

:41:53.:41:56.

there was a snap election, Jeremy Corbyn could be the next Prime

:41:57.:41:59.

Minister and Labour would have to do the negotiation. It is in that

:42:00.:42:03.

spirit that he has gone, from the point of view of Michel Barnier,

:42:04.:42:05.

implicit acknowledgement that Parliament will have a more

:42:06.:42:08.

significant role in shaping Brexit negotiations and the Brexit

:42:09.:42:12.

negotiating brief Ben may have been the case if as many people

:42:13.:42:16.

anticipated, the Conservatives have come back with a big majority. With

:42:17.:42:18.

a big majority. The war in Syria has been

:42:19.:42:23.

going on for over six years, and the advance of so-called

:42:24.:42:26.

Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, has had major

:42:27.:42:28.

implications for us in the UK. But now that IS is being driven out,

:42:29.:42:30.

we've been asking two With many other factions

:42:31.:42:33.

still fighting, it seems defeating VOICEOVER: Two key cities once under

:42:34.:42:36.

Islamic State control. Now Mosul in Iraq has been liberated

:42:37.:42:47.

and Raqqa in Syria is also We've reached a significant

:42:48.:42:50.

step in the dismantling of the so-called IS caliphate,

:42:51.:42:53.

but what comes next? The Syrian conflict is an alphabet

:42:54.:42:57.

soup of different groups Just because one element might start

:42:58.:43:00.

to be resolved that doesn't mean we're anywhere

:43:01.:43:09.

near fixing this mess. There are so many things going

:43:10.:43:13.

on and they're all interlinked. It's been six-and-a-half

:43:14.:43:16.

years of war. There are multiple external

:43:17.:43:19.

influences and actors and powers getting involved carving off bits

:43:20.:43:23.

of territory, There are different rules

:43:24.:43:25.

in different sets of governments been put in place of the regime

:43:26.:43:34.

of Bashar al-Assad. They're not going to go

:43:35.:43:38.

anywhere any time soon. Broadly speaking, the parts of Syria

:43:39.:43:42.

shown here in red are under the control of the government forces

:43:43.:43:45.

of President Assad. In green are areas dominated

:43:46.:43:50.

by a number of different anti-government rebel factions

:43:51.:43:53.

who oppose the Assad regime. And in the North, a large area

:43:54.:43:57.

known as Rojava in yellow is under the control

:43:58.:44:00.

of the Kurdish-led Syrian who have been leading the fight

:44:01.:44:02.

to push back IS along with supportive airstrikes

:44:03.:44:09.

from the US-led coalition. There is not one side

:44:10.:44:14.

aligned to another. It's shifting alliances,

:44:15.:44:16.

so there's a lot to play for still and where the United States

:44:17.:44:18.

is particularly involved is in this rollback of Islamic State territory

:44:19.:44:21.

and the key there is two-fold. One is, of course, to try to defeat

:44:22.:44:24.

extremist Sunni actors, but the second one is to stop

:44:25.:44:26.

the regime of Bashar al-Assad IS out in the east is in retreat

:44:27.:44:29.

and has now lost more than half But some warn, although IS may be

:44:30.:44:40.

defeated militarily, in terms of its control of certain

:44:41.:44:44.

areas, the group could continue In my opinion we're not even

:44:45.:44:47.

seeing the fall of Isis. We're seeing the pushback of one

:44:48.:44:54.

aspect of what Isis is. But in the way we are diminishing

:44:55.:44:56.

its statehood presence, its claims to statehood,

:44:57.:44:59.

we're not doing anything to resolve the fact that it

:45:00.:45:00.

remains an insurgency, it remains a terrorist

:45:01.:45:03.

movement and in fact, all of the underlying structural

:45:04.:45:05.

problems of Syrian society and of Iraqi society that allowed

:45:06.:45:07.

and led to the creation of all of this mess in the first

:45:08.:45:09.

place all still remain. Elsewhere, other fault lines

:45:10.:45:26.

are becoming more prominent. In the North, the Kurds

:45:27.:45:27.

are under attack at the hands of their long-standing enemy Turkey

:45:28.:45:30.

and this is where it America is arming the Syrian Kurds

:45:31.:45:33.

to help them fight IS, even though Turkey is America's main

:45:34.:45:39.

NATO ally in the region. You've got the counter Isis

:45:40.:45:44.

coalition going this way and the interests of Turkey

:45:45.:45:46.

going that way and of course And what you've had of course

:45:47.:45:49.

is this sort of piecemeal arrangement whereby Turkey has taken

:45:50.:45:53.

a little is of territory arrangement whereby Turkey has taken

:45:54.:46:00.

a little bit of territory in the north of the country

:46:01.:46:02.

to prevent the creation of a continuous Kurdish bloc,

:46:03.:46:05.

but they are also very frustrated about the fact the Kurds

:46:06.:46:07.

are becoming one of the biggest They're being empowered in a way

:46:08.:46:10.

which will give them some kind of political strength

:46:11.:46:14.

after the conflict is gone. So far, British MPs have voted not

:46:15.:46:16.

to put boots on the ground in Syria, but for the UK to be part

:46:17.:46:19.

of the coalition, which carries out So what of the UK's

:46:20.:46:22.

role going forward? I think where you will see more UK

:46:23.:46:26.

activity is at a time when people sit down and go,

:46:27.:46:30.

"It's time to talk. "Let's try to work out a track

:46:31.:46:32.

whereby we can have the regime, "we can the Kurds, we can

:46:33.:46:37.

have the opposition in their various "different stripes actually having

:46:38.:46:40.

a realistic discussion The United Kingdom can have

:46:41.:46:42.

some influence there. The message really has to be

:46:43.:46:48.

this is a war of decades and will probably live with us

:46:49.:46:51.

in some form for the A major concern will be

:46:52.:46:53.

whether areas of Syria and Iraq will remain a breeding ground

:46:54.:46:58.

for potential terrorists even after the fall

:46:59.:47:01.

of so-called Islamic State. Back in 2013 MPs voted against

:47:02.:47:06.

committing ground troops to Syria - a result secured after Labour

:47:07.:47:15.

decided to oppose military action - our guest of the day

:47:16.:47:19.

Douglas Alexander was Shadow Foreign Secretary

:47:20.:47:21.

at the time. The Conservative MP,

:47:22.:47:22.

Nadhim Zahawi voted in favour of military action and joins

:47:23.:47:24.

as now. If the House had voted the other way

:47:25.:47:35.

in 2013 to sanction it, do you think it would've much difference? I think

:47:36.:47:39.

the vote at the time was essentially if you remember, Barack Obama the

:47:40.:47:45.

Red Line would be if President Assad used chemical weapons and he did and

:47:46.:47:49.

his action had consequences because he then used it again and only when

:47:50.:47:56.

President Trump decided to take action with a cruise missile attack

:47:57.:48:02.

and a warning two weeks ago, if you recall, the State Department

:48:03.:48:07.

delivered to Russia and other allies to say we got intelligence they are

:48:08.:48:12.

going to use chemical weapons are going if they do we were lacked a

:48:13.:48:16.

game, with the support of the UK and others, which has made resident

:48:17.:48:20.

Assad stop and think about stopping using chemical weapons so his

:48:21.:48:25.

actions have consequences. I don't know what would have happened if we

:48:26.:48:29.

had acted then. We stop the Americans. A la vote. Precisely. --

:48:30.:48:41.

our vote. I remember that weekend in Washington was fascinating. Barack

:48:42.:48:48.

Obama didn't have support in Congress because of our vote and on

:48:49.:48:52.

the Saturday in the Rose Garden he said we are not proceeding with

:48:53.:48:57.

this. Looking back now, do you regret that 2013 vote? Let's start

:48:58.:49:02.

with the facts force your introduction was not accurate. It

:49:03.:49:08.

wasn't troops on the ground. I felt when I saw that, that was wrong and

:49:09.:49:13.

you are quite right, it was air strikes. Truthfully, at the

:49:14.:49:18.

conclusion that evening in the House of Commons, David Cameron in his

:49:19.:49:21.

summation said I've got the message, Britain will not be taking part in

:49:22.:49:25.

military action, so the consequence was precluding ground truth but that

:49:26.:49:29.

was never on the order paper. There was a range of different options we

:49:30.:49:33.

said the evidence should precede the decision, there should be a vote at

:49:34.:49:37.

the UN Security Council, but we would not be mandated by the

:49:38.:49:41.

decision of the Security Council. It would surface the opposition of the

:49:42.:49:46.

Russians and, as it turned out, it was defeated as was the Conservative

:49:47.:49:49.

motion that night, and we are now in the realm of counterfactual history.

:49:50.:49:53.

I would say none of us on any side of the House of Commons can feel any

:49:54.:49:57.

pride in what happened over the last seven and a half years and the human

:49:58.:50:03.

suffering, but in not dissimilar circumstances there was a vote in

:50:04.:50:08.

favour of air strikes in Libya in 2011 where Labour support of the

:50:09.:50:11.

Government and a few of us look back on that vote with any pride either.

:50:12.:50:15.

So I think exactly had has been said, we have learned over the

:50:16.:50:20.

decades that military intervention has consequences. A lack of military

:50:21.:50:24.

intervention has consequences as well. Labour had an amendment

:50:25.:50:30.

calling for impelling evidence President Assad was responsible for

:50:31.:50:34.

the chemical attacks. There's no doubt he did, is there? Not now but

:50:35.:50:41.

there was at the time. Previously, people said weapons inspectors were

:50:42.:50:45.

not given sufficient time, we were keen to ensure the evidence informed

:50:46.:50:49.

decision. The truth is the vote took place in the long shadow of the vote

:50:50.:50:55.

of Iraq and its to David Cameron 's discredit that when he received

:50:56.:50:58.

phone call from Barack Obama saying I'm going to take military action

:50:59.:51:03.

next weekend, will you join me? David Cameron didn't have the

:51:04.:51:06.

presence of mind to say, listen, there are pros as I need to go

:51:07.:51:10.

through in Parliament. If you need to go next weekend you have my

:51:11.:51:13.

diplomatic support, I need longer time to be able to persuade people.

:51:14.:51:18.

This was pre-the vote. Immediately before it. We saw Barack Obama's

:51:19.:51:27.

timetable, I need to strike within one week, against David Cameron's

:51:28.:51:32.

timetable for legitimacy, I need to take this to House of Commons. What

:51:33.:51:36.

was wrong with that? If he had said we need to take this to the UN, get

:51:37.:51:40.

the weapons inspectors report, if we had had that, I believe there would

:51:41.:51:44.

have been a majority House of Commons for air strikes being taken

:51:45.:51:50.

forward. His point on Libya intervention, and the Foreign

:51:51.:51:53.

Affairs Committee did a comprehensive report and it isn't

:51:54.:51:58.

about understanding the consequences of intervention, and not simply knee

:51:59.:52:03.

jerking and intervening and not knowing what to do afterwards. If

:52:04.:52:10.

you look at Iraq for example, 1982, when John Major persuaded George

:52:11.:52:13.

Bush senior to take action to but in a no-fly zone, he brought in the

:52:14.:52:18.

Royal Marines and I had a Civil War. If you had a snapshot of

:52:19.:52:22.

intervention, you would have thought of the failing intervention because

:52:23.:52:26.

the two Kurdish parties went at each other but that took about a year

:52:27.:52:29.

until they realised it's no good and they should come together, they

:52:30.:52:32.

formed a parliament, coalition Government and now they are onto

:52:33.:52:38.

their 24th Government. Embryonic democracy with all the values that

:52:39.:52:44.

we try and go out and talk about and asking countries to buy into, has

:52:45.:52:50.

developed so intervention does work. You have got to go in with very

:52:51.:52:56.

clear ideas about what the eventual outcome would be. John Major said we

:52:57.:53:02.

will not be nation-building, put troops on the ground but just

:53:03.:53:05.

protect them so he can't use helicopter... No, no. He did put

:53:06.:53:12.

troops on the ground and created a safe haven. He put in the Royal

:53:13.:53:14.

Marines. One of the weaknesses of the ceasefire, I was out there at

:53:15.:53:21.

the time in the first Gulf War, was that the Americans with British

:53:22.:53:24.

support, allowed helicopters to fly and they went in and took out the

:53:25.:53:30.

Marsh Arabs who Saddam Hussein had hated and built a huge canal so they

:53:31.:53:39.

no longer had water. It's about intervention. We intervened and

:53:40.:53:47.

occupied Iraq. It was a mess. We intervened but did not occupy Libya

:53:48.:53:52.

and it was a mess. We have not intervened to any great extent or

:53:53.:53:58.

occupied Syria, it's a mess. What policy conclusion can you draw? The

:53:59.:54:04.

policy conclusion I draw is that we need to because shares in saying the

:54:05.:54:10.

vote in 2013, if it had gone the other way, would have resulted in

:54:11.:54:14.

Syria turning into Scandinavia because we had 100,000 international

:54:15.:54:19.

troops on the ground for a decade in Iraq and it was engulfed in

:54:20.:54:22.

sectarian conflict and for every independent region of physics done,

:54:23.:54:29.

you've had problems. It seems the public tolerance and a waste, for a

:54:30.:54:33.

significant number of ground troops in Middle Eastern countries has gone

:54:34.:54:37.

but, on the other hand, the reality of the conflict leads to huge human

:54:38.:54:41.

suffering and potential security threats for us and that's why we

:54:42.:54:45.

will have to find alternatives to the kinds of invasions we saw in

:54:46.:54:50.

2003. Thank you for that. It's a really important subject to be

:54:51.:54:53.

discussing. We have to move on to an even more important subject.

:54:54.:54:56.

Now - have we Brits been dictating what fruit spread should be

:54:57.:54:59.

Well, one German MEP thinks so and hopes Brexit will be

:55:00.:55:03.

an opportunity to reclaim the Teutonic tradition when it

:55:04.:55:05.

Jackob von Weizsacker joins us now from Brussels.

:55:06.:55:18.

Welcome to the programme. I'm going to put up on the screen, a little

:55:19.:55:25.

marmalade, and on this toast, I have got what we call marmalade in the

:55:26.:55:29.

UK, made with oranges but on the other piece of toast we have

:55:30.:55:33.

strawberry jam, which is not made with oranges. The clue is in the

:55:34.:55:40.

name. Are you saying, Germany, after Brexit, both could be caught

:55:41.:55:46.

marmalade? Well it turns out that the pure linguistic exercise.

:55:47.:55:53.

Week one of marmalade on and the other is marmalade. It's a problem

:55:54.:56:00.

when you start writing them because they look the same and so it was

:56:01.:56:05.

agreed a long time ago and it was a victory for Britain at the time that

:56:06.:56:12.

what we call Orange marmaladen would be called marmalade and the rest of

:56:13.:56:15.

it would have to be called confiture. I did ask a

:56:16.:56:30.

tongue-in-cheek question is whether Germans would be allowed to call

:56:31.:56:38.

their jam marmaladen again after Brexit, to sweeten the bitter

:56:39.:56:43.

aftertaste of Britain's leading EU? Now, clearly, it is a

:56:44.:56:46.

tongue-in-cheek question so to my great surprise, the Daily Telegraph

:56:47.:56:51.

and the Daily Mail made a story out of it than angry German asking for

:56:52.:57:00.

his marmalade back and in fact it was just a bit of a joke. It was an

:57:01.:57:06.

odd experience with the British press. I think you have learned the

:57:07.:57:11.

hard way, when it comes to European things, you can't joke with the

:57:12.:57:14.

Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph on that. You said allowing marmalade

:57:15.:57:21.

to be called marmaladen again could help sweeten the bitter aftertaste

:57:22.:57:25.

Brexit for many EU citizens. That's quite an important policy you come

:57:26.:57:28.

across there, isn't it? Quite, quite. Does it take the EU to do

:57:29.:57:40.

this? After all, on champagne, only sparkling wine from the Champagne

:57:41.:57:45.

region can because champagne and that is secured by the Treaty of

:57:46.:57:51.

Versailles. In 1919. Country have another international treaty to

:57:52.:57:56.

protect marmalade? -- couldn't we have? I'm not certain whether we

:57:57.:58:00.

should go back to having to deserve the science that things. -- having

:58:01.:58:07.

treaties of Versailles and such things. More importantly, discussing

:58:08.:58:13.

Brexit, is whether in fact Britain is going to leave both the single

:58:14.:58:19.

market and the customs union which would have a major disadvantage for

:58:20.:58:24.

Britain and major disadvantages for the EU 27 remaining or whether we

:58:25.:58:30.

can think of a better way of a divorce settlement and that of

:58:31.:58:34.

course a serious matter which is currently under discussion and

:58:35.:58:39.

unfortunately, it turns out in order to have such an arrangement, like

:58:40.:58:44.

the single market, we need to reach compromises. And I need to stop you

:58:45.:58:49.

because we have run out of time but I hope you'll come back and speak to

:58:50.:58:53.

us on other issues, also. A pleasure to talk to you. I will be back after

:58:54.:58:59.

question Time. Very late.

:59:00.:59:02.

Andrew Neil is joined by Douglas Alexander, a former secretary of state under Gordon Brown and Tony Blair. They look at the Repeal Bill, which starts the process of transferring thousands of European Union laws and regulations into UK legislation after Brexit, and the new Select Committee chairs. There is also an assessment of the state of Isis.