18/07/2017 Daily Politics


18/07/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by the Australian high commissioner to the UK, Alexander Downer. They discuss the UK's trade deals post-Brexit and the latest inflation figures.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

The Cabinet is told to end the backbiting and public

:00:42.:00:43.

disagreements following a series of damaging leaks.

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But can the Prime Minister instil unity and discipline?

:00:47.:00:50.

Australia's Prime Minister says his country is very

:00:51.:00:52.

keen to do a trade deal with the UK after Brexit.

:00:53.:00:55.

But how much will trade increase with countries

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The Labour Party has backed the idea of a so-called Robin Hood tax

:00:58.:01:04.

to raise money from the financial sector to help alleviate poverty.

:01:05.:01:08.

And Australia's parliament and political traditions look

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We'll have our very own political slanging match.

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of the programme today is the Australian High Commissioner

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In a previous life, he was briefly Leader

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of the Opposition in Australia, before going on to be his country's

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longest serving Foreign Minister under Prime Minister John Howard.

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First today, the UK's headline rate of inflation dropped slightly -

:01:43.:01:55.

down from 2.9% in May to 2.6% in June.

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Let's get all the details from our business correspondent, Jonty Bloom,

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Why and what has caused the slight fall? We were expecting a small fall

:02:01.:02:11.

this month but this was much more than expected. Principally it is

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done to a fall in the international old forests and that has seen the

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price of petrol and diesel on the garage forecourt full sharply --

:02:20.:02:30.

international oil price. There are still inflationary pressures of

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course in the system. But this is quite a sharp fall and much sharper

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than people were predicting. It was unexpected and bigger than people

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thought, but what about the cost of everyday goods, including food and

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household products, did they continue to rise? Yes, they have.

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Food is going up by 0.2% in the last month, not as quickly as it has been

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rising in the past few months. And also what we are seeing is the price

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of raw materials for factories and producers does not seem to be

:03:03.:03:06.

increasing as quickly as it has been which could mean inflationary

:03:07.:03:10.

pressures which we were expecting to come through in the next few months

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will not be quite as large as expected. People are

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talking that inflation, although it has not peaked quite yet, will peak

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soon. Do you think it will not get the 3% people had thought might

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happen? And would therefore put more pressure on the Bank of England who

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of course have to make the decision about base rates. The bank itself

:03:36.:03:37.

was predicting inflation would reach 3% towards the end of the year. That

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is still quite possible but it is still unlikely the Bank of England

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will act. The pound fell in value this morning because people were

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predicting it means it is far less likely the Bank of England will

:03:50.:03:54.

increase interest rates. It sees it as a temporary inflation problem

:03:55.:03:57.

caused by devaluation of the pound principally and it thinks that will

:03:58.:04:00.

go out of the system, through the system, in a couple of months and

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prices will come back to a more acceptable level. As inflation has

:04:05.:04:10.

risen, albeit with this drop today, it is obviously eating into people's

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wages which are rising more slowly. Does this drop take the pressure off

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the Government which is in the middle of a big row over what to do

:04:20.:04:24.

about public sector pay? I am not sure it will totally reveal pressure

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or reduce it because you have to remember people in the public sector

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had a pay freeze for two years in 2010-11 and the vast majority have

:04:34.:04:38.

seen pay frozen at an increase of 1% for the last five years and the

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Government has committed to keeping that going for another three years

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at least. When you are increasing wages by only 1% and prices are

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increasing by 2.6%, you are feeling much worse off every year. I do not

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see that pressure being reduced very much by just these figures. It has

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been a long-running issue and lots of people in the public sector are

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very angry and feeling a lot worse off than they were seven years ago.

:05:04.:05:07.

The noises coming out of the Treasury from the Chancellor in

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terms of pay for public servants, do you have any update? We had an

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announcement this morning that the pay rises for top civil servants,

:05:17.:05:21.

judges and top military staff will increase by 1%. That seems to be

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confirmation the Treasury is sticking to the tough line. Thank

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you. Cost of living, that is what voters are most concerned about. As

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an astute observer of British politics, do you think our public

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servants are in line for a pay rise? I will be careful making judgments

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because presumably when the analysis is done, you compare private sector

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wages with public sector wages, you make an over the nation assessment

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of the situation and there is a relationship between wages and

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employment. One of the features of the UK since the great recession in

:05:58.:06:03.

2008 is the way you have kept unemployment so low. Your

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unemployment rate is around 4.6%. You have had through the private

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sector and public sector, probably both, substantial pay restraint, but

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the benefit is you have kept unemployment down. What do you make

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of the conundrum, as you say and the Government likes to point to the

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jobs miracle and there are high rates of employment, but wages have

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been either static or rising slowly after the last ten years, yet

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inflation is on its way out. Usually, inflation is pushed up by

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rising wage costs and that is not the case. Labour would say it is

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because of the types of jobs people have, insecure, self-employed, zero

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hours contracts. The reason you have inflation at the moment, it seems to

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me, is a function of the depreciation of the pound which was

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a result of the Brexit folk. The pound, I think, on average must have

:07:03.:07:06.

depreciated by around 15%, making imports more expensive, that does

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have... It should only be temporary effect on prices, but it will have a

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temporary effect. In the case of Australia, when we have had

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substantial declines in the value of our currency, and it has happened in

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the last three, former careers, 20% depreciation in the currency, that

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has had a significant effect on the price of imports -- three, four

:07:30.:07:34.

years. You would expect the inflation impact of the devaluation

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to wash through here in the UK before long and maybe we will see

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the beginning of the end of that exchange rate effect. We will find

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out when we get the next set of figures.

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The Bank of England is unveiling the new ?10

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note this afternoon which has a picture of Jane Austen on.

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In September, the Reserve Bank of Australia is putting a new $10

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note in circulation, but who is on it?

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At the end of the show, Alexander Downer will give

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I think you can probably deduce from that.

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So, after days of briefing and backbiting, Theresa May

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is attempting to get her class in order.

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Cabinet met this morning and Theresa May is keen to show

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that her government is getting on with the job.

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Yesterday, the Education Secretary, Justine Greening, announced an extra

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?2.6 billion for schools over the next two years, although Labour

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points out there's no new money as the cash will come

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Also yesterday, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling was in the Commons,

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laying out the proposed route for the next phase of the High Speed

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2 rail link, connecting Birmingham with cities in the North of England.

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And of course, Brexit Secretary David Davis was enjoying

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the delights of Brussels to launch the second round of formal talks

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He's called for both sides to get down to business

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Mr Davis has his detractors, however.

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Yesterday, Dominic Cummings, one of the leading figures

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in the Vote Leave campaign tweeted that he thought David Davis

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was "thick as mince, lazy as a toad, and vain as Narcissus."

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So Theresa May is attempting to get a grip on all the briefings

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She told a group of Conservative backbenchers last night

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that there must be "no backbiting, no carping" and that the choice

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was "me or Jeremy Corbyn, and nobody wants that".

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And this morning, in their weekly Cabinet meeting, the Prime Minister

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reinforced the message by reminding her colleagues

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that their meetings must be kept private.

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The Cabinet meeting has now finished and our political correspondent,

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Eleanor Garnier, joins us from outside Number 10.

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Was that meeting private or have you heard the entire contents of the

:10:02.:10:08.

Cabinet this morning? Not yet, but I would not hold your breath. It is

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like a really tough school where you have a head teacher who is pretty

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weak and all of the pupils are kicking off, just tap the last

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school assembly of the term, so far, none have been expelled -- just had

:10:21.:10:30.

the last school assembly. After the leadership gossip, the leaks from

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Cabinet and the hostile briefings, Theresa May is trying to get a grip

:10:35.:10:39.

of things, to instil discipline. We know at Cabinet today, she was

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laying down the law to the senior ministers to keep Stumpf as they go

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away on the summer holidays. She wants everyone to calm down and come

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back after the holiday hopefully with a bit of a sense of unity. We

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can see pictures of members of the Cabinet trooping out of the famous.

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They do not look too unhappy, maybe she did not shout too much. What

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about the drinks on the terraces last night at the House of Commons

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with MPs? She is not only telling her senior ministers they have to

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behave and stop bleating, but she told Conservative MPs at a summer

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drinks thing they had last night on the terrace that they needed to stop

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carping, stop backbiting, to calm down. She said, go away over the

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summer, have a good break, but let us be ready to get down to serious

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business when we come back after the summer holiday when Parliament

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returns in September. Eleanor Garnier outside Number

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The reality is that you have to deliver. I know from speaking to

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teachers during the general election that they were hurting and needed

:12:35.:12:38.

extra money put in. So there is a bitter rejigging going on within the

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department and that was where the 1.3 billion a year is coming from.

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To use your phrase of the magic money tree, you found a lot of it

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for the DUP. It is priorities. Let us concentrate

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on education, you will take that money or make savings from the

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existing schools budget for England, is it annoying the money was going

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to be used for more free schools and now it has been taken away? For me

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who believes in our manifesto promise of getting more grammar

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schools where they were wanted, I am a bit disappointed, but the brutal

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reality of a minority government is we cannot get through the policies

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we originally wanted. That is where we are. The pressure of course is

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going to continue from the big spending departments. The Institute

:13:30.:13:32.

for Fiscal Studies has pointed out that even with the ?2.6 billion over

:13:33.:13:39.

two years as a real terms freeze, not increase. Is that really

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addressing the issue? It is going a step in the right direction, it is

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certainly not stepping backwards. Yes, there is ?1.3 billion extra

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that will be put into education. Let us say it has been mildly welcomed

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already by the profession. They want more. Of course, I do not blame

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them. But it is a step in the right direction. Would you like to see

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more? Absolutely. But the reality is, where will it come from? We have

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the budget coming in November and that is probably the appropriate

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time to find out whether Philip is going to release the firm grip he

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has got on the Exchequer. Do you think he should? Is he listening to

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the pleas, not just from the sectors themselves, health and education and

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others, but also from ministers within the Cabinet? I hope so.

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Particularly for those who work in teaching at the lower level, those

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with low levels of money in the National Health Service, not by

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managers, some of whom are earning over 100,000, 200,000, 300,000, we

:14:48.:14:52.

are talking about the ones on 20000 and less. You are on the side of

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Boris Johnson rather than Philip Hammond. I am on the side of the

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National Health Service and education. I am not picking members

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of the Cabinet as to whether they are supporting a lifting of the

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restraint or not. That is one of the reasons we heard the reason may at

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the 1922 drinks last night to ensure we got the message across -- Theresa

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May. Boris was there, David Davis and Philip Hammond. The last party

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they were at together, it seems they fuelled the Sunday paper pages

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completely with their gossip, if not personally, their people. Great to

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see them there along with half of the Cabinet at the drinks reception.

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No prosecco. It was chilled champagne, beer and red wine and

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white wine. Times are hard on the terraces in the House of Commons!

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Theresa May addressed the 22 and got her point across beautifully, I

:15:53.:15:53.

thought. To get back to the issue of public

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sector pay, are public servants overpaid? No. So Philip Hammond was

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wrong? From what I read, it was taken out of context. And I

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shouldn't really know what Philip Hammond is saying in a cabinet

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meeting where you should have the freedom to be absolutely frank in

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what you say and do not expect to see it appearing on the front page

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of any newspaper. It is being aired publicly and he didn't deny that he

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said something along those lines. Once you take pensions into account,

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did he have a point? Again, I don't know exactly what he said and in

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what context. Well, he didn't deny it, so let's just say he said that

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public sector workers are paid more than private sector workers, says

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he, when you take pensions into account. If that is the reality,

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that is the reality. But part of the problem is when you get partial

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titbits fed to newspapers by people who are not on your side. It is not

:17:03.:17:08.

helpful. Here is what he said on the Andrew Marr Show. Philip Hammond

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defended his position, saying public sector pay had raced ahead of the

:17:12.:17:15.

private sector after the economic crash in 2008. Are these the sorts

:17:16.:17:23.

of things you want to hear from the Chancellor? Well, he is the one who

:17:24.:17:26.

has to ensure that the books are balanced. At the last count, we had

:17:27.:17:35.

?1.7 trillion of debt. And who has been in government since 2010? Well,

:17:36.:17:40.

all of this was built up under the Blair and Brown regime. So you are

:17:41.:17:43.

still blaming the former Labour government. I certainly am. The

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interest we are paying on that is 43 billion a year. Philip Hammond is

:17:52.:17:55.

right to ensure that we are pulling back on how much we are borrowing to

:17:56.:17:58.

get to a situation where we can write off the debt. It will benefit

:17:59.:18:02.

the National Health Service, education and public sector if we

:18:03.:18:06.

can do this. But you said you want him to release his iron grip on the

:18:07.:18:11.

finances. At the lower levels. So you would like to see more money

:18:12.:18:16.

going to the lowest paid? I would prefer some of these managers who

:18:17.:18:20.

are earning eye-watering salaries to get nothing, and the people lower

:18:21.:18:24.

down who do the dirty jobs to get more. Let's talk about the

:18:25.:18:29.

backbiting. Do you think anything Theresa May says now, whether in

:18:30.:18:32.

cabinet or last night when you were there with those ministers, will

:18:33.:18:37.

have an iota of difference? Yeah, because we are angry. People on the

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backbenches are coming up to me and telling me we should not be having

:18:44.:18:48.

to listen to plotting is going on either directly by Cabinet ministers

:18:49.:18:51.

or by people on their behalf, with or without their permission. You

:18:52.:18:56.

were briefly leading yourself in Australia. How difficult is it to

:18:57.:18:59.

discipline the troops? Pretty difficult. The equivalent of the

:19:00.:19:07.

Conservative Party in Australia is the Liberal party, and these are

:19:08.:19:10.

parties that believe in individual freedom, which seems to me to be

:19:11.:19:14.

freedom of speech and expression. So you can't corral them into some

:19:15.:19:17.

quarters -- sort of Stalinist regime. It is a huge challenge to

:19:18.:19:25.

exercise a degree of discipline. But let's face it, a political party is

:19:26.:19:28.

made up of a large number of people with different views. If only one

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view counted, there would only be one person who ever spoke or made

:19:33.:19:39.

decisions. Listening to Nigel talking about public sector pay, you

:19:40.:19:46.

get competition about the allocation of scarce resources. And that is

:19:47.:19:50.

fine. Everyone knows there is a difference of opinion. The point is,

:19:51.:19:54.

should it be aired publicly by people who are supposed to be under

:19:55.:19:57.

what is known as collective responsibility? Well, leaking from

:19:58.:20:04.

Cabinet in Australia is regarded as a serious offence. What happens to

:20:05.:20:09.

those who do that? Well, can you prove who did it? In all of my

:20:10.:20:16.

years, I spent nearly a dozen years in cabinet and there were not many

:20:17.:20:20.

leaks. But when there were, I never knew the culprit. I fought hard to

:20:21.:20:28.

ensure that we got back to Cabinet government after the general

:20:29.:20:32.

election would we found out what was going on and people who were not

:20:33.:20:36.

part of the Cabinet had more power and were telling the cabin at what

:20:37.:20:41.

to do. But with that comes a responsibility and they have to

:20:42.:20:45.

ensure that they can be critical, but within Cabinet. But Theresa

:20:46.:20:49.

May's authority has been weakened. She was the one who called a snap

:20:50.:20:53.

election after saying she wouldn't. And then she lost the Tory majority.

:20:54.:20:57.

So you can understand why people might be upset. As you said, you are

:20:58.:21:05.

joint chair of the 1922 Committee. Joint secretary. How many letters

:21:06.:21:12.

have been sent to you? They would be sent to the chairman. How many? I

:21:13.:21:21.

don't know. I wouldn't ask. I would expect -- wouldn't expect Graham to

:21:22.:21:24.

tell me, either. The vast majority of backbenchers are supporting the

:21:25.:21:32.

Prime Minister. Normally, the men in grey suits, as we are called, go up

:21:33.:21:34.

to the Prime Minister and tell them when it is time to go and make way

:21:35.:21:38.

for somebody else. This time, we have gone to the Prime Minister and

:21:39.:21:47.

said to her, we support you 100%. We want you to use the message from the

:21:48.:21:51.

1922 Committee to tell your Cabinet to get in line. Alexander Downer

:21:52.:21:55.

said you never know who is doing the leaking, but if people have a good

:21:56.:22:00.

idea, should ministers be sacked? I believe they should be. If they are

:22:01.:22:03.

found to be briefing against one another and against the Prime

:22:04.:22:07.

Minister, I don't think they should last any longer. The Prime Minister

:22:08.:22:11.

does have the authority to do that. She would of the 1922. Did she seem

:22:12.:22:21.

seem OK? Absolutely superb. There were also members of Parliament who

:22:22.:22:26.

had lost their seats in their -- in the room that night. She made a

:22:27.:22:29.

special point of reflecting on the fact that they were there after they

:22:30.:22:37.

had lost their jobs. I don't want an early general election. The best way

:22:38.:22:41.

to do that is by the Cabinet getting a man and supporting the Prime

:22:42.:22:43.

Minister. Nigel Evans, thank you. Now, on yesterday's show,

:22:44.:22:45.

you may recall we were joined by the Conservative MP,

:22:46.:22:48.

Robert Halfon, and the Labour And there was something of a row

:22:49.:22:51.

about apprentices and pay. The industrial strategy,

:22:52.:22:54.

for example, talked about the Government spending

:22:55.:22:57.

2.5 billion on apprenticeships by 2020 and over 53%

:22:58.:23:03.

of apprentices are women. What is the pay disparity

:23:04.:23:05.

between men and...? Women get paid ?1 less

:23:06.:23:07.

as apprentices than men. The surveys that I saw said,

:23:08.:23:09.

suggested, that women get paid more Surveys suggested,

:23:10.:23:21.

but you don't know for a fact? Maybe that's something

:23:22.:23:25.

we need to check. We said we would look

:23:26.:23:26.

into it, and we have. They have been working away,

:23:27.:23:29.

the Daily Politics research team. Now, there is nothing

:23:30.:23:32.

to support your claim, Robert Halfon, that women earn

:23:33.:23:34.

more than men. The figure that Jess quoted,

:23:35.:23:37.

that's ?5.85 for men, ?4.82 for women, that's

:23:38.:23:42.

from a Young Women's Trust report which does suggest female

:23:43.:23:44.

apprentices are paid ?2,000 a year But women are not necessarily

:23:45.:23:46.

being paid less than men in the same It is to do with sectors men

:23:47.:23:51.

and women tend to go into. So, do you want to revise

:23:52.:23:58.

what you said before? I am very happy to, but let me find

:23:59.:24:00.

where I thought that I had seen this Well, Robert Halfon

:24:01.:24:04.

got in touch with us after the programme and gave us

:24:05.:24:10.

the following figures and sources. He directed our attention to

:24:11.:24:15.

the 2014 Apprenticeship Pay Survey, done by the Department for Business,

:24:16.:24:19.

which estimates that the average hourly pay for level two and three

:24:20.:24:27.

female apprentices across England is higher than for males -

:24:28.:24:30.

?6.38 as opposed to ?6.16 for men. Jess Phillips, however, was quoting

:24:31.:24:36.

from a Young Women's Trust report done in March,

:24:37.:24:40.

2016, which found that female apprentices are paid ?4.82 an hour

:24:41.:24:43.

and men are paid ?5.85. To help provide some

:24:44.:24:49.

clarity, we're joined now by Matt Whittaker,

:24:50.:24:56.

chief economist at the Resolution Foundation, a not-for-profit

:24:57.:24:59.

research and policy organisation, which says its goal is to improve

:25:00.:25:01.

outcomes for people on low Can you clear it up? Who is right

:25:02.:25:14.

when it comes to who is paid more per hour as an apprentice? The great

:25:15.:25:26.

news is that they are both right. I knew you would say that. Looking at

:25:27.:25:31.

the latest figures for apprentices specifically looking at basic hourly

:25:32.:25:34.

pay rates, there is a small gap in favour of female apprentices.

:25:35.:25:42.

However, that gap reverses as you move up the spectrum. So if we are

:25:43.:25:45.

thinking about lower-level apprentices, women tend to earn more

:25:46.:25:50.

than men. But if we look at the high-level apprentices, and those

:25:51.:25:56.

are the ones that we want to drive, then you see men earning more than

:25:57.:25:59.

women. And what is the reason for that? It is because they are very

:26:00.:26:05.

different roles. Nine in ten of those entering and engineering

:26:06.:26:07.

apprenticeship last year were men. Eight in ten of those entering a

:26:08.:26:11.

health and social care apprenticeship last year were women.

:26:12.:26:15.

So in many ways, the gender debate around apprenticeships is something

:26:16.:26:17.

of a red herring. We know a lot about the gender pay gap, and it

:26:18.:26:21.

really starts to kick in later in a person's career around childbirth.

:26:22.:26:26.

When people are entering the labour market, we don't see that going on.

:26:27.:26:30.

There are bigger issues with apprenticeships rather than what is

:26:31.:26:33.

going on between men and women. Although it does feed into a broader

:26:34.:26:38.

debate about equal pay for men and women. But it depends which sector

:26:39.:26:42.

you enter. So it is still the case that women are entering what might

:26:43.:26:47.

be termed as poorer paid professions of a lifetime of working, such as

:26:48.:26:52.

childcare or health, and men are still going into construction and

:26:53.:26:55.

engineering in larger numbers? That's right. Interestingly, when

:26:56.:27:00.

you switch from looking at the hourly pay rate you get in your

:27:01.:27:04.

doctor thinking about what is more important for living standards like

:27:05.:27:07.

what you get over the course of a week, you see the gap opening in

:27:08.:27:11.

favour of men. That is partly because male apprentices are working

:27:12.:27:15.

longer hours than female apprentices, but men also going into

:27:16.:27:19.

roles where they get paid overtime, and female apprentices aren't. Men

:27:20.:27:22.

are getting bonuses and female apprentices are not. So those

:27:23.:27:27.

sectoral choices are then driving what happens. But when you look at

:27:28.:27:32.

like-for-like, if they were a man and woman starting as apprentices in

:27:33.:27:36.

the same profession, would they be paid equally and do the statistics

:27:37.:27:43.

back that up? As far as we can push the statistics. The problem is, and

:27:44.:27:48.

this is a point that the government needs to improve so that the

:27:49.:27:51.

government can monitor what is going on with the policy, the statistics

:27:52.:27:55.

we have are firstly a bit old and secondly do not represent a big

:27:56.:27:58.

sample. And because there is such a big distinction between the roles

:27:59.:28:02.

men and women are going into, it is hard to control for everything else

:28:03.:28:06.

and say, in the same roles, are they getting paid the same? Is there

:28:07.:28:11.

anything that surprises you about these statistics when in the end, it

:28:12.:28:14.

comes down to try to attract women to go into different professions

:28:15.:28:18.

that they have traditionally? Lo, this is the same phenomenon we have

:28:19.:28:22.

in Australia. It is about gender and occupation. It is not about equality

:28:23.:28:27.

of pay for equality of work. But it has been in the past and that has

:28:28.:28:32.

only been rectified recently. Over many years, there has been equal pay

:28:33.:28:40.

for equal work. But the same thing happens in Australia. Female

:28:41.:28:42.

apprentices tend to go into areas like child care and health work, and

:28:43.:28:46.

males focus more on engineering and the like, with everything that has

:28:47.:28:52.

been said about overtime and bonuses applies as well. So the question is,

:28:53.:29:00.

why is it that women into the lower paid occupations? Are there

:29:01.:29:04.

obstacles to them going into the higher paid occupations? These are

:29:05.:29:11.

difficult questions, but that is the central issue. And how do you think

:29:12.:29:18.

that can be addressed? That is a question we do not have answers for

:29:19.:29:22.

right now, but the key thing is in terms of the apprenticeship policy

:29:23.:29:25.

the government has put in place, it is welcomed across the spectrum as

:29:26.:29:28.

being a worthwhile thing to do. But the key is to make sure we get

:29:29.:29:33.

quality as well as quantity of apprenticeships and ensure that we

:29:34.:29:37.

are creating new opportunities for young people and providing a wage

:29:38.:29:41.

boost. At the moment, the bigger statistic is that you few have a

:29:42.:29:44.

higher level apprenticeship, you are getting a wage boost compared to

:29:45.:29:48.

somebody who doesn't get an apprenticeship. But if you are at a

:29:49.:29:51.

lower level apprenticeship, you often don't see a wage boost. And

:29:52.:29:59.

what are the figures now? Is it improving? It has been improving

:30:00.:30:02.

since we have had the apprenticeship levy put in place. We have started

:30:03.:30:07.

to see some improvement, but it is early days. We just don't have good

:30:08.:30:12.

data on this. Alongside introducing a policy which is raising revenue

:30:13.:30:16.

and creating some upheaval for firms and is billed as being a big boost

:30:17.:30:22.

to productivity and skills, we need to have the tools in place to

:30:23.:30:27.

monitor it. And what is the response from companies? As you say, it is a

:30:28.:30:29.

big upheaval. The generally quite supportive but

:30:30.:30:38.

they have had quite a lot coming in at the same time. Increased auto

:30:39.:30:42.

enrolment of pensions and the national living wage. Really, you

:30:43.:30:48.

have Brexit as well. For certain firms, relying on migrant labour,

:30:49.:30:52.

that is an issue as well. Firms generally are feeling hard done by

:30:53.:30:57.

in many ways but there is a genuine support I think for improving the

:30:58.:31:01.

skill base and trying to drive productivity through investing in

:31:02.:31:05.

people. The tricky thing and this is always very difficult with

:31:06.:31:07.

apprenticeships, how do you ensure that firms are not just re-badging?

:31:08.:31:16.

Call it an apprenticeship, thank you very much. That is what the

:31:17.:31:20.

Government needs to stay on top of to make sure the policy does what

:31:21.:31:25.

they wanted to do. Thank you for coming in.

:31:26.:31:28.

After Brexit, Britain will be looking to secure a range of trade

:31:29.:31:31.

Trading more with countries like Australia, Canada

:31:32.:31:34.

But how easy is it to trade with countries that

:31:35.:31:37.

Some say Brexit could mean big opportunities for Britain to expand

:31:38.:31:48.

its business. For consumers, in theory, it could mean there will be

:31:49.:31:53.

new global produce for us to buy at better prices. The think tank open

:31:54.:31:55.

Europe says according to its research at the moment we're not

:31:56.:31:59.

realising the full potential of markets outside of the EU. We found

:32:00.:32:04.

we are under trading in goods and services with lots of countries we

:32:05.:32:09.

should be doing more with. But some experts warn distance makes some

:32:10.:32:11.

trade more difficult. We can always trade with other countries on

:32:12.:32:28.

the other side of the world, but it is costly and expensive and a bit

:32:29.:32:31.

awkward to do so. We do have trade with countries like Australia and

:32:32.:32:33.

New Zealand, but nothing like the amount of trade we have with our

:32:34.:32:35.

neighbours in Europe. Being in the same time zone, having goods tied up

:32:36.:32:39.

in ships is bad news. Before we joined the EU, Britain used to trade

:32:40.:32:43.

more with the Commonwealth. They are being shipped to Australia to

:32:44.:32:47.

improve the strain of cattle there, they will be better beef for your

:32:48.:32:52.

table ban a foreigner can supply. Some argue re-establishing these

:32:53.:32:56.

links will be key post Brexit and because the services industry now

:32:57.:33:00.

plays a bigger role, according to Open Europe, distance does not have

:33:01.:33:04.

to be a drawback. We still may have to get on the plane occasionally to

:33:05.:33:07.

meet someone face-to-face, but a lot can be done online. Digital services

:33:08.:33:13.

change the way companies can trade across the world. And that is

:33:14.:33:17.

something being echoed by trade secretary, Liam Fox. The real game

:33:18.:33:22.

for the UK is to get a global liberalisation in the services

:33:23.:33:25.

sector. He is already laying some of the groundwork for trading further

:33:26.:33:30.

afield and has told an Australian parliamentary committee the UK wants

:33:31.:33:33.

to rapidly establish a free-trade deal with Australia after the UK's

:33:34.:33:38.

exit from the EU. But there are warnings that getting deals with

:33:39.:33:42.

countries further afield may be a slow task and deliver less than some

:33:43.:33:46.

may hope for. We are not being realistic about how long it will

:33:47.:33:54.

take and I think we are probably not being realistic about how much extra

:33:55.:33:56.

trade we will get. Australia is a relatively small economy and a lot

:33:57.:34:01.

of the trade we already have actually is not interfered with by

:34:02.:34:06.

trade barriers. Great, if we can have a trade agreement, but it will

:34:07.:34:10.

not change the world. For all the talk, it is only when the UK really

:34:11.:34:15.

gets down to the business of carving out a new trading position in the

:34:16.:34:19.

world will we find out whether our ambitions can be realised.

:34:20.:34:24.

Let us look at the logistics. The point was made a few times, a

:34:25.:34:31.

commercial flight from London to Australia, 23 hours, time zones,

:34:32.:34:34.

Canberra is nine hours ahead of London, when it comes to the free

:34:35.:34:38.

movement of goods and people, it is a lot easier to do it with

:34:39.:34:43.

geographically close neighbours? It is not a principle of economics we

:34:44.:34:46.

apply. We look for markets where we can sell and some are approximate

:34:47.:34:51.

and some are not. The nearest country to Australia is Papua New

:34:52.:34:56.

Guinea. That is not one of our major trading partners. The next nearest

:34:57.:35:01.

is Indonesia and that was our 12th largest trading partner. Our biggest

:35:02.:35:08.

trading partners, a long way away, China, Korea, Japan, the US. Is that

:35:09.:35:13.

not a symptom of where you are, Australia? We have the continent of

:35:14.:35:17.

Europe right on our doorstep. It is not, in other words, a principle but

:35:18.:35:22.

we trade just with countries near to us. That principle is wrong. It is

:35:23.:35:26.

where you have a comparative advantage that you trade. We used to

:35:27.:35:30.

have a huge amount of agricultural trade with the UK and the distance

:35:31.:35:38.

was exactly the same then, as it is now. A huge amount of agricultural

:35:39.:35:42.

trade. That was cut out when Britain joined the EU. It proves the point

:35:43.:35:48.

that if we had free-trade again with the UK, I don't know what we would

:35:49.:35:54.

export, it is hard to predict, but Australian exporters would be

:35:55.:35:56.

interested in the British market. More than that, Australian importers

:35:57.:36:01.

would be interested in the UK. It is a place you could get things of

:36:02.:36:05.

higher quality at a good price. If you look at even the quantity of

:36:06.:36:11.

trade currently done when it comes to UK trade and Australia, it is a

:36:12.:36:14.

fraction of the trade obviously with the EU and I know one does not have

:36:15.:36:18.

to rule out the other necessary, but you are talking about a massive gap.

:36:19.:36:23.

You will not cut off all trade with the EU. I said that. People often

:36:24.:36:32.

make this point. It is not a zero-sum game. It is fatuous to say

:36:33.:36:36.

all British trade with the EU will end. I am sure an enormous amount of

:36:37.:36:41.

trade will continue. It is also not just to think about Australia alone,

:36:42.:36:45.

but to think about trading relationships with all sorts of

:36:46.:36:49.

countries, China, the second-biggest economy in the world, growing at

:36:50.:36:54.

6.5%, it has a rapidly growing, as you do, through Asia, a rapidly

:36:55.:37:00.

growing middle class. For us, in Australia, we have targeted, not

:37:01.:37:03.

because the countries are close, they are a long way away, Beijing is

:37:04.:37:08.

no closer to Sydney than it is to London. Are we right to looked to

:37:09.:37:12.

Australia and New Zealand and other countries outside of the EU as the

:37:13.:37:19.

great utopia outside of the EU, UK exports to Australia last year were

:37:20.:37:24.

worth ?9 billion, UK exports to the EU were ?240 billion? Even taking

:37:25.:37:28.

your point we will not stop trading with the EU, there would have to be

:37:29.:37:32.

an awful lot of trade done with other countries to justify, if you

:37:33.:37:37.

like, in the words of the Government that it is worthwhile. As an

:37:38.:37:41.

outsider, it might be a bit presumptuous of me to say this, but

:37:42.:37:45.

it seems to make perfect sense for you to retain some kind of free

:37:46.:37:49.

trade arrangement with the EU, but number two, just to make a

:37:50.:37:59.

mathematical point, if 60% of your trade is with the outside world, 60%

:38:00.:38:02.

of your trade is not with the EU, it does make sense to liberalise as

:38:03.:38:07.

much of the 60% as you can as well as maintaining liberal trade with

:38:08.:38:11.

that 40%. That is win- win for the UK, if you can achieve that. The

:38:12.:38:14.

practical arrangements, the free-trade deals cannot be done

:38:15.:38:22.

until the UK actually leaves the EU. March, 2019, the date talked about,

:38:23.:38:25.

but we could have transitional arrangements. That is probably quite

:38:26.:38:30.

likely. Do you think during the transitional period that the UK

:38:31.:38:34.

should be able to negotiate its own free-trade agreements, even if it is

:38:35.:38:39.

part of the customs union? Number one, let me say, we would not have

:38:40.:38:42.

thought transitional arrangements would be very surprising because in

:38:43.:38:46.

our trade negotiations, we inevitably have transitional

:38:47.:38:50.

arrangements before the new trade agreement takes full effect. If you

:38:51.:38:56.

were to do the same, it would not be surprising. Number two, it would

:38:57.:38:59.

depend. If you remain in the customs union, you cannot in the customs

:39:00.:39:04.

union have free-trade agreements with other countries. It could be

:39:05.:39:08.

many years before we have anything like a trade deal with Australia.

:39:09.:39:13.

However, it depends on how long you remained on the customs union and

:39:14.:39:17.

the extent to which the EU would nevertheless be happy you having

:39:18.:39:24.

left the EU, which is an issue of legal competence in relation to

:39:25.:39:27.

trade, having left the EU, you could, I suppose, negotiate a trade

:39:28.:39:31.

agreement with another country which would not come into force until

:39:32.:39:37.

you... You agree with Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, who

:39:38.:39:41.

says you should be able to negotiate in the transitional arrangement

:39:42.:39:44.

which we cannot do now, you can just scope out, as he has called it. I

:39:45.:39:48.

would make an observation about the debate about the towns of you

:39:49.:39:53.

leaving the EU, it is a negotiation. Nobody quite knows how it will turn

:39:54.:39:57.

out -- the terms. There are a lot of quid pro quos. The British public's

:39:58.:40:04.

clay aspiration is to negotiate trade agreements with other

:40:05.:40:07.

countries once it leaves the EU and to retain free trade with the EU. In

:40:08.:40:12.

those circumstances, that would be good for our bilateral relationship

:40:13.:40:15.

and for your relationship with a whole range of countries like Japan,

:40:16.:40:20.

China, India and so on. Will it work out that way? It depends how the

:40:21.:40:25.

negotiations transpire. That will be part of it. What are your views on

:40:26.:40:30.

freedom of movement when it comes to a bilateral trade deal between

:40:31.:40:37.

Australia and the UK? Whenever we leave, when that happens, Amber Rudd

:40:38.:40:41.

said in October last year, she had no plans to increase the UK's intake

:40:42.:40:45.

of Australians. Do you agree with that? Well, we do not believe with

:40:46.:40:51.

any of our trade agreements in negotiating at the same time

:40:52.:40:54.

complete freedom of movement. The only exception we have is with New

:40:55.:41:00.

Zealand. But we have no freedom of movement arrangements with any

:41:01.:41:04.

country in the world other than New Zealand. And we have no plans to do

:41:05.:41:09.

that. We have a non-discriminatory policy in relation to people

:41:10.:41:13.

visiting Australia. As well as migrants. Not everybody, by the way,

:41:14.:41:17.

who comes to Australia would be defined as a migrant. People who

:41:18.:41:23.

come to Australia with the intention of permanently settling migrants. We

:41:24.:41:29.

have a non-discriminatory policy. In a negotiation on trade, we might

:41:30.:41:36.

look at ways of enhancing facilitating people like academics,

:41:37.:41:40.

students, business people, being able to move between our

:41:41.:41:45.

countries... With larger numbers? Possibly, yes. We already have some

:41:46.:41:49.

access to Britain for Australians in certain circumstances and we could

:41:50.:41:58.

perhaps facilitate access for business people in companies that

:41:59.:42:02.

are investing in the UK. To make it better than it currently is. All

:42:03.:42:05.

right, let us leave it there. There were some stormy exchanges

:42:06.:42:12.

in the Commons last night over the scheduling of business

:42:13.:42:14.

in the House. The Commons leader Andrea Leadsom

:42:15.:42:16.

faced pressure over the debates that have been scheduled

:42:17.:42:19.

since the election. So there was a debate

:42:20.:42:20.

about, well, debates! The Government has not

:42:21.:42:22.

provided for an opposition day before the summer recess,

:42:23.:42:26.

making the earliest opposition This means a staggering eight

:42:27.:42:29.

months, nearly as long a time as it takes to have a baby,

:42:30.:42:36.

without a single opposition day, denying vital scrutiny

:42:37.:42:38.

of government business, with the last opposition day,

:42:39.:42:40.

as you know, Mr Speaker, Last week, we had a vital debate

:42:41.:42:43.

on the Grenfell inquiry. Many powerful points were raised

:42:44.:42:49.

from members on all sides of the House and it's right

:42:50.:42:54.

that we have prioritised giving time to such a catastrophic

:42:55.:42:57.

and tragic event. This week, we are having a general

:42:58.:43:01.

debate on what more can be done to eradicate the evil

:43:02.:43:04.

of drug misuse. And today, although now under

:43:05.:43:06.

threat by this debate, we are scheduled to have a debate

:43:07.:43:09.

on the intimidation and abuse of candidates

:43:10.:43:12.

in the general election. Mr Speaker, this urgent debate

:43:13.:43:21.

as a result of party Nearly 30 million people voted

:43:22.:43:23.

for the party opposite to come I don't believe they were voting

:43:24.:43:27.

for petty time wasting by Labour. Perhaps unfavourably,

:43:28.:43:31.

this Parliament has already been dubbed the zombie parliament,

:43:32.:43:33.

but I actually think that comparison gives the flesh-eating

:43:34.:43:37.

undead a bad name. This is turbo-charged

:43:38.:43:43.

political zombiism. But it is a curious type

:43:44.:43:46.

of zombiism, Mr Speaker, because if you look at them,

:43:47.:43:49.

not only are they tearing the flesh from the public, they are starting

:43:50.:43:52.

to consume themselves. If the Government had a programme,

:43:53.:43:55.

I would be happy for us to debate the Government's programme,

:43:56.:44:01.

but there isn't any legislation. The Leader of the House

:44:02.:44:05.

refers to the Air Travel That isn't a bill, that is barely

:44:06.:44:07.

a clause in a bill. That is where I think

:44:08.:44:13.

the opposition has today misfired. To everything there is a season

:44:14.:44:19.

and a time to any purpose under heaven, but this was not the season,

:44:20.:44:23.

this was not the time. There is so much that is going

:44:24.:44:28.

on of general urgency and this strikes me as fiddling whilst

:44:29.:44:35.

Brussels burns. Passions running high in the Commons

:44:36.:44:56.

there. Now, during the general

:44:57.:44:58.

election, the Labour Party announced their support

:44:59.:45:00.

for a so-called Robin Hood Tax, This, they said, would raise

:45:01.:45:02.

?26 billion over five years. Here's Shadow Business

:45:03.:45:06.

Secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey explaining the policy to Andrew

:45:07.:45:07.

on the Sunday Politics to ensure that we have fairness

:45:08.:45:09.

in our financial sector. Ordinary British people

:45:10.:45:15.

are still paying for a banking crisis that they didn't cause,

:45:16.:45:17.

so the aim of this tax is to restore Another important point is the fact

:45:18.:45:21.

that stamp duty reserve tax was actually brought

:45:22.:45:25.

in in the 1600s. There have been little reforms over

:45:26.:45:26.

the years, but certainly, the sector has changed significantly

:45:27.:45:29.

and we have to provide changes With high-frequency trading,

:45:30.:45:31.

we have a state of affairs where a lot of our shares are traded

:45:32.:45:35.

on computers We have to ensure that we have a tax

:45:36.:45:38.

system that keeps up with that. This afternoon, John McDonnell

:45:39.:45:43.

is hosting an event where one of his speakers will be

:45:44.:45:48.

Avinash Persaud, chairman of Intelligence Capital and a former

:45:49.:45:52.

global head of currency research His report on a financial

:45:53.:45:55.

transaction tax formed the basis Stamp duty is already 0.5% on

:45:56.:46:13.

shares. Are you suggesting that that figure should be raised or should

:46:14.:46:18.

apply to more financial products? Not raised. There are two problems

:46:19.:46:23.

with that number. Firstly, we have a market exemption that is being

:46:24.:46:26.

abused. Traditionally, market-making, which is an important

:46:27.:46:31.

activity, used to be ten to 15% of trading on the exchange. It has now

:46:32.:46:35.

become 50 to 60%, and that is because people who are not really

:46:36.:46:40.

market makers like hedge funds and high-frequency traders are saying

:46:41.:46:45.

they will be there. But when the Isas comes, they are not there for

:46:46.:46:49.

the marketplace. So we need to end the market maker abuse and we need

:46:50.:46:53.

to extend the securities from equities towards debt, because the

:46:54.:46:57.

tax system has long favoured debt versus equities, and we need to

:46:58.:47:02.

include derivatives. But if you look at the amount it would raise, Labour

:47:03.:47:07.

said ?26 billion over five years. Currently, stamp duty reserve tax,

:47:08.:47:13.

the tax on buying shares, raised ?3.3 billion a year in 2015-16. So

:47:14.:47:20.

even if you extend that and you closed the loopholes or you removed

:47:21.:47:23.

the exemptions and put it on derivatives, would it raised ?26

:47:24.:47:27.

billion over five years? That is actually a Conservative estimate. We

:47:28.:47:30.

assume that raising attacks would have no impact on behaviour. We all

:47:31.:47:39.

know that raising taxes causes people to think, do we need to do

:47:40.:47:43.

this? Can we change the timing? So we have taken into account a very

:47:44.:47:48.

conservative view of how much behaviour will change. That is where

:47:49.:47:54.

you get the 26. Without behaviour changes, it is 65 billion. But even

:47:55.:47:57.

John McDonnell said it was a gamble and you couldn't rely on those

:47:58.:48:01.

figures. Even if it is a cautious estimate, it sounds like a big

:48:02.:48:05.

amount of money to be raised in an area where people are potentially

:48:06.:48:10.

very mobile and where people could, as you say, either leave or set up

:48:11.:48:15.

somewhere else, and that would mean you would net far less. There is a

:48:16.:48:18.

lot of deliberate confusion about relocation. If you are an American

:48:19.:48:26.

investor today and you are trading a French or Australian stock in

:48:27.:48:31.

London, you don't pay stamp duty. And you will not pay stamp duty in

:48:32.:48:36.

the future, because you are an American resident and you are

:48:37.:48:40.

treading a non-UK instrument. There is no incentive to relocate your

:48:41.:48:43.

trade. If you are a British citizen and you are trading in Frankfurt or

:48:44.:48:47.

Hong Kong, you are still liable for income tax and Capital Gains Tax and

:48:48.:48:55.

you are still liable for taxes on UK insurance. Are you in favour of

:48:56.:48:58.

financial tax? I am not going to get into the British tax system, except

:48:59.:49:02.

to say that one of the reasons why a lot of Australian companies use the

:49:03.:49:05.

City of London is because it not only has the skill set and very

:49:06.:49:09.

strong legal protections, but because it is a competitive market

:49:10.:49:13.

to use. So when you look at these kind of arguments, you might like to

:49:14.:49:19.

take into account the alternative. We could use Singapore or Sydney,

:49:20.:49:24.

New York and so on. If you make London less competitive, inevitably

:49:25.:49:29.

that will have some impact on the amount of business that is done

:49:30.:49:33.

through London. Then it would damage the City? No, because if you are on

:49:34.:49:40.

Australian doing business around the world in London and you are treading

:49:41.:49:45.

American securities etc, you don't pay stamp duty. That is an important

:49:46.:49:50.

point. This is not a tax on where you trade, it is a tax on who is

:49:51.:49:58.

trading and what they are trading. But could it be done unilaterally?

:49:59.:50:03.

If you don't get some sort of international cooperation and we

:50:04.:50:06.

know the EU has talked about this and is still talking about it. They

:50:07.:50:10.

haven't agreed anything. France was supposed to be the lead nation on

:50:11.:50:14.

this, and Emmanuel Macron is apparently shown no sign of making

:50:15.:50:19.

this a priority, which leaves the City vulnerable. Second biggest

:50:20.:50:24.

myth. The first biggest myth is relocation. We have had this tax for

:50:25.:50:31.

322 years. A fair amount of time to innovate and four other countries to

:50:32.:50:35.

lure business away from London. It hasn't happened. In the G20 report,

:50:36.:50:42.

the IMF report to the G20, they found that 20 countries had

:50:43.:50:46.

unilateral FTTs, raising $30 billion a year already, including the

:50:47.:50:52.

fastest-growing countries. India and Hong Kong and Thailand and Singapore

:50:53.:50:58.

have one. To do think it is a myth that it is something that is always

:50:59.:51:01.

used by politicians and businesses alike to say, if you impose a tax

:51:02.:51:06.

and make us less competitive, we will relocate, but there is now

:51:07.:51:09.

evidence to show that it has happened? It doesn't matter what tax

:51:10.:51:15.

was introduced 300 years ago. That is irrelevant, because the City of

:51:16.:51:18.

London has grown in that period in spite of it, not because of the tax.

:51:19.:51:25.

The overall picture is that if you want the City of London to remain

:51:26.:51:29.

the world's greatest financial centre and you think that is

:51:30.:51:33.

virtuous for your economy, I suppose some people in Britain don't think

:51:34.:51:36.

that is a good idea. But if you think it is a good idea, however you

:51:37.:51:41.

taxi system, I am not getting into that, but you need to keep it

:51:42.:51:47.

reasonably competitive. If you don't make it competitive... Look, people

:51:48.:51:56.

might decide they don't want the country to make huge amounts of

:51:57.:52:00.

money out of financial transactions. So if you want to do something else

:52:01.:52:04.

as a country, fair enough, but people will move. Competitiveness is

:52:05.:52:11.

an important point and in our post-Brexit environment, having

:52:12.:52:15.

competitive industry will be vital. Financial services being important.

:52:16.:52:19.

Germany have a competitive economy and if you ask what makes them

:52:20.:52:22.

competitive, they will say long term finance. Our financial sector is

:52:23.:52:28.

obsessed with the short term, not lending to industry. So this tax

:52:29.:52:33.

will rebalance our financial sector and make it more fit for purpose,

:52:34.:52:40.

more lending for industry to be competitive. George Osborne

:52:41.:52:43.

obviously thought it was a bad idea, and Sadiq Khan, the current Labour

:52:44.:52:48.

mayor says it is madness. He was referring to a previous idea some 12

:52:49.:52:54.

months ago. What idea was that? He was talking about general financial

:52:55.:52:59.

transaction taxes, not this design. Has he said anything about this

:53:00.:53:04.

particular idea? I haven't seen anything. But he is of course

:53:05.:53:08.

running London, and he says any taxes that might damage the City of

:53:09.:53:12.

London would be madness. So how are you going to persuade him? The key

:53:13.:53:20.

thing is that this tax will actually increase the stability of our

:53:21.:53:24.

financial sector. We have seen a big increase in flash crashes ever since

:53:25.:53:28.

we have seen an increase in high-frequency trading. The May we

:53:29.:53:32.

make our financial sector more resilient and more attractive is if

:53:33.:53:35.

we don't have these flash crashes. Thank you for coming in.

:53:36.:53:39.

Now, in many respects, the political system in Australia

:53:40.:53:42.

is much like the system here in the UK.

:53:43.:53:44.

A Prime Minister and a Cabinet, responsible to Parliament.

:53:45.:53:46.

They even have red benches in their Senate and green benches

:53:47.:53:49.

proceedings can sometimes get a little heated -

:53:50.:53:53.

There will be a ballot for the leadership and deputy

:53:54.:54:07.

leadership of the Labour Party at 4.30 today.

:54:08.:54:10.

In the meantime, take your best shot.

:54:11.:54:13.

I think I know what my mother would say.

:54:14.:54:15.

She'd look across the dispatch box and she would say

:54:16.:54:18.

"Put on a proper suit, do up your tie and sing

:54:19.:54:20.

Madam Speaker, I have a further personal explanation to make.

:54:21.:54:24.

It had better be better than the first two.

:54:25.:54:27.

Madam Speaker, that sort of commentary...

:54:28.:54:35.

Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is the Mr Potato Head

:54:36.:54:40.

I said to him, he didn't write off the mortgage the taxpayers

:54:41.:54:49.

I didn't receive a proper answer then.

:54:50.:54:54.

The Leader of the Opposition slept right through the critical vote.

:54:55.:55:04.

He can disgrace his party, but what is intolerable

:55:05.:55:10.

is that he has cynically raised the hopes of hundreds

:55:11.:55:15.

You're a miserable pipsqueak of a man!

:55:16.:55:26.

Well, Tom Watson, shouting at Michael Gove and ending that film.

:55:27.:55:32.

Did it make you proud to relive those moments in the Australian

:55:33.:55:36.

Parliament, people shouting at each other? I am glad you didn't have a

:55:37.:55:43.

clip of me. We thought about it! It shows you how unbiased the BBC is.

:55:44.:55:49.

It is part of the robust nature of Australian life. People who are

:55:50.:55:56.

members of Parliament enjoy it. The public are forever saying it is

:55:57.:56:02.

childish behaviour. But of course, overall, if we took the life like

:56:03.:56:05.

that out of the Australian Parliament and made it suitably dull

:56:06.:56:10.

to make it look like a university seminar or some such thing, we would

:56:11.:56:17.

lose a lot in our national life. Which Parliament do you think is

:56:18.:56:23.

more rowdy, the Australian order UK? Australians use language...

:56:24.:56:28.

Australians are actually very polite people, but they use language more

:56:29.:56:31.

brutal it. They are incredibly friendly. But in Parliament, the

:56:32.:56:36.

language is pretty tough. The right word is brutal. But you make your

:56:37.:56:44.

point that way. We don't want to leave people unsure about what we

:56:45.:56:50.

think. But you have been very polite and well behaved on this show, and

:56:51.:56:54.

yet we know there are clips of you coming up against Paul Keating. Even

:56:55.:57:07.

you can flare-up. I am not saying this of myself, in case some

:57:08.:57:10.

Australian journalists are watching this. But you do see in politics,

:57:11.:57:16.

and this might be true here as well, a certain amount of what you might

:57:17.:57:22.

call confected anger. When we showed those clips, do you think that is

:57:23.:57:27.

what is going on? It is not true passion? It is, but it is passion

:57:28.:57:31.

for the cameras. In the Australian Parliament, we have Question Time

:57:32.:57:39.

and the Prime Minister is in question Time everyday, unlike here.

:57:40.:57:42.

And the idea is to get a so-called run on the news. If you are in the

:57:43.:57:48.

opposition, if you can while at the Prime Minister and then you get your

:57:49.:57:52.

story on the news, there is a bit of that going on. I don't know if that

:57:53.:57:55.

happens here, because I have never been that involved. I think you will

:57:56.:58:01.

find there was something similar in that sense. But the public don't

:58:02.:58:06.

like it, you say? The public say they don't like it. It is like

:58:07.:58:10.

negative advertising in an election campaign.

:58:11.:58:15.

We have just got time to do the quiz. A new Australian $10 note is

:58:16.:58:24.

being put in circulation. Who is on its? Kylie Minogue, Alexander

:58:25.:58:28.

Downer, the poet Banjo Patterson or Rod Laver? I think it would be Banjo

:58:29.:58:34.

Paterson. You are probably right. It would be nice to think it might be

:58:35.:58:39.

Kylie Minogue all your good self, but it is Banjo Paterson. A great

:58:40.:58:43.

national hero and a beautifully behaved Australian tennis player.

:58:44.:58:47.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:58:48.:58:55.

Jo Coburn is joined by the Australian high commissioner to the UK, Alexander Downer. They discuss the UK's trade deals post-Brexit and the latest inflation figures from the Bank of England.


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