08/09/2017 Daily Politics


08/09/2017

Anushka Asthana and guests Isabel Oakeshott and Jack Blanchard look at Thursday's Brexit Bill in the Commons and a campaign within Labour to support free movement after Brexit.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

Brexit is still causing problems for ministers today,

:00:42.:00:45.

after Eurosceptic MPs warned Theresa May against keeping the UK

:00:46.:00:47.

But are junior members of the government overstepping

:00:48.:00:52.

Jeremy Corbyn is on the final leg of his tour of marginal

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constituencies, but how will Labour reconcile its own differences over

:01:01.:01:02.

One controversial German party is hoping for a breakthrough

:01:03.:01:09.

at elections there later this month, but why is Nigel Farage

:01:10.:01:11.

And the statues of men in Parliament Square in Westminster

:01:12.:01:21.

are to be joined by a woman for the first time,

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but is the campaigner Millicent Fawcett the right woman

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All that in the next hour, and with me for all of it two

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journalists in absolutely no danger of being immortalised outside

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Parliament, and I don't think I've got much chance either,

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it's the commentator Isabel Oakeshott and

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First today, let's talk about the devastating

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impact of hurricane Irma, which has been pummelling

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the British overseas territory of the Turks and Caicos Islands

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after leaving a trail of destruction across the Caribbean.

:01:59.:02:01.

After criticisms that the UK government did not respond quickly

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enough to the disaster, Theresa May will chair a meeting

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of the government's Cobra emergency committee this afternoon.

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Ministers have increased the relief fund for overseas

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territories including Anguilla, Montserrat and the British

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Virgin Islands from ?12 million to ?32 million.

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The first British military flight to join the relief effort will leave

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RAF Brize Norton later, carrying troops, rations and water.

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But some 500,000 people were told to leave south Florida

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OK. One of the things, Jack, things have been criticising is the UK

:02:30.:02:44.

responded too slowly, is that the case? It is difficult for them. You

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look at the scale of what is happening over there and it is hard

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for a government, it will always get criticised for the way it responds.

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It is important for the government to be seen to get on top of this,

:02:56.:03:00.

not just for the people there but from a political point of view. You

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look at George Bush and his slow response to hurricane Katrina, very

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damaging to him on political level. You talk about George Bush... Isabel

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, this is a massive challenge for politicians, from George Bush to

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Donald Trump. It needs a very resourced Armed Forces from our end.

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It has become unfashionable in political terms to spend money on

:03:29.:03:34.

defence. We are now sending out HMS Ocean. It is due to be

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decommissioned due to the recalibration of the defence budget.

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I think people will be delighted to seek HMS Ocean going out. It will

:03:43.:03:45.

take a couple of weeks to get there. I think what this exposes is a

:03:46.:03:52.

shortage of presence in the region, which is a natural consequence of us

:03:53.:03:55.

diminishing the Armed Forces. We are now going to see our Armed Forces at

:03:56.:03:59.

our best -- their best and is a reminder to people as to why we need

:04:00.:04:04.

the Armed Forces. Furthermore, these are are overseas territories and one

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of the main duties of the government is to protect the safety of its

:04:08.:04:12.

people. So this really hammers home that when we are thinking about

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defence, we shouldn't just be thinking about the UK but the

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remaining overseas territories. That is a resource intensive things. We

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will hear from the Prime Minister later in the day.

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The question for today is why did Labour MP Ann Clwyd miss

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the first Commons vote of the Parliamentary session?

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Was it she missed the bus, her dog ate her parliamentary pass,

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she was stuck in a lift, or she thought in was still recess?

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At the end of the show, Isabel and Jack will give

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If they've been doing their homework.

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Now, the composition of the standing committees of the House

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of Commons may not sound like a subject to get the heart

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racing on a rainy Friday afternoon, but it's causing a bit of a stir

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today after Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn described what sounded

:05:01.:05:04.

like a fairly minor technical change as "an unprecedented attempt to rig

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Well, our political correspondent Chris Mason lives for this sort

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Chris, explained. Even for the most proud Daily Politics viewer

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clutching their Daily Politics mug watching you today, it you might

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think this is pretty nerdy. It is but it's about the committees, the

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most important committees at Westminster you have probably never

:05:35.:05:39.

heard. Committees made up of MPs that scrutinise the really small

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print of legislation, beyond the knock-about stuff we see in the

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House of Commons. What the government is proposing in a motion

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it has put down and there will be a vote on Tuesday, is they want to

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change the make-up of these committees to Minshull there is a

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majority of conservatives on them. The idea being from their

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perspective they can get legislation, and there is a

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truckload of it coming along with Brexit, through the Commons as

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quickly as possible. If you are an opposition MP you see this as a

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democratic outrage because they say that aggression has been that these

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committees are made up of a group of MPs that reflects the make-up of the

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house, and given the Conservatives don't have a majority in the

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Commons, the argument goes, why should they in these committees? The

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opposition see it as Theresa May trying to fiddle the election

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results? Yes, and playing fast and loose, as they see it, with the

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rules of Parliament. When you speak to real parliamentary historical

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nerds, like Chris Bryant, the Labour MP, who has written tomes on this

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stuff, started quoting bits of Erskine May. He sees this, and you

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might say he would as a Labour MP, he sees this as an unwarranted

:06:48.:06:52.

bending of the rules. Some are pointing to Presidents back in the

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1970s and Walter Harrison, a former whip for Labour when he appointed

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Tony Newton, and the Conservatives in 1990 when their majority slipped

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away between 92-97, Chris Bryant making the argument this goes beyond

:07:10.:07:14.

that. The Prime Minister's official spokesman in the last hour, their

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argument is that they have a majority in the Commons, which they

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do if you take account of the Democratic Unionists, and therefore

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it is right they do in these committees. My understanding is the

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DUP will vote with the Conservatives when this vote... Every Tory MP will

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vote with? That is the big question. I've been trying to get to the

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bottom of that this morning. I can't give you a definitive answer. When

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you look at the Tory MPs who are most like to make the hullabaloo

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about Parliamentary procedure, there is an overlap with those names on

:07:46.:07:50.

those who want to get Brexit legislation through quickly, so my

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hunch is they will back the government. It would be difficult

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from Parliament to get this sort of stuff through committees? That is

:07:59.:08:00.

completely right. Any government would try and do this. There is an

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argument to say they are trying to break the system. They don't have a

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majority, therefore you don't have a majority on the committees. The

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truth is, they would be able to get the legislation through. I suspect

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if the shoe was on the other foot and it was

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the Labour Party in power without majority, they would try to do the

:08:27.:08:30.

same thing. I think it's less trying to break the system rather than

:08:31.:08:33.

making the system work. I know there was some sort of horror in the early

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days after the general election result. Apart from the general

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overall horror, horror when the government realise this issue with

:08:39.:08:40.

the make-up of the committees. So it is something that has definitely

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been exercising them the reality is nothing will get done unless we come

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up with a workable system here. I think some people are just going to

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have to accept that perhaps the historical precedents are very

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pretty, but business needs to get on with it and I'm sure the opposition

:08:55.:08:58.

will be as keen on that as everyone else. It will be quite interesting

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next week. Thank you for bringing us up to date, Chris.

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Now, yesterday the EU Withdrawal Bill, which would convert

:09:04.:09:05.

all current EU law into UK law after Brexit, was introduced

:09:06.:09:08.

for its second reading in the House of Commons.

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We'll show you a bit of that debate later.

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But although the attention this week has been focused on life

:09:13.:09:15.

after we leave the EU, the battle to define how Brexit

:09:16.:09:17.

actually happens goes on inside the government and opposition.

:09:18.:09:21.

So, where exactly are the fault lines?

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Tories concerned about the consequences of withdrawal

:09:25.:09:28.

from the Single Market and Customs Union, that's people

:09:29.:09:31.

like Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry, have criticised the Withdrawal Bill

:09:32.:09:34.

for giving ministers too much power over how to incorporate EU law.

:09:35.:09:36.

But Theresa May's facing pressure from another side too,

:09:37.:09:41.

the much-larger Eurosceptic group of Conservative MPs.

:09:42.:09:46.

Yesterday, a letter emerged in which dozens urged

:09:47.:09:49.

the Prime Minister not to stay in the EU "by stealth."

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The letter was circulated among a social media group containing two

:09:54.:10:01.

junior members of the Government, Brexit Minister Steve Baker

:10:02.:10:03.

Labour has agreed a three-line whip on its MPs to oppose the EU

:10:04.:10:07.

The party's Brexit Spokesman Keir Starmer says Labour wants to stay

:10:08.:10:17.

in the single market and customs union during

:10:18.:10:19.

a transition but it's divided on the nature of the final deal

:10:20.:10:22.

One group of Labour MPs, including former shadow ministers

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Heidi Alexander and Alison McGovern, is campaigning for permanent

:10:26.:10:27.

But Labour's 2017 manifesto said freedom of movement

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will end after Brexit, something John McDonnell has said

:10:33.:10:34.

There's expected to be lots of pressure at the party's

:10:35.:10:41.

conference from the Labour Campaign for Free Movement, backed by people

:10:42.:10:43.

Backing that campaign is the former union leader Billy Hayes,

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Also joining us is the businessman and founder

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Thank you both for being here. Billy, what do you want to do at

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conference, will you be setting a motion down on this issue? That is

:11:06.:11:10.

still being debated, as to what will be discussed. But very much we want

:11:11.:11:14.

to be in favour of the continuation of free movement of labour. The

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decision of Keir Starmer on the front trench is a good move in the

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right direction. The third part of that has got to be a continuation of

:11:25.:11:29.

free movement. Only until the transitional deal? Let's deal with

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where we are at the moment. We are yet to see the whole of the

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disastrous Brexit played out yet. At this stage, we are campaigning and

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there needs to be the continuation of free movement of labour. To be

:11:41.:11:44.

clear, you signed up to a campaign with a commitment of defending and

:11:45.:11:47.

extending the free movement of people in the context of the debate

:11:48.:11:51.

around Brexit. Do you ultimately want to make it easier for people to

:11:52.:11:56.

come here? I think the big thing is immigration and free movement has

:11:57.:11:58.

been a good thing for this country and is a good thing. The world's

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most successful economy is built on it, the Westgate, and immigration

:12:04.:12:08.

has been built on this -- in this country. That's what it's about, the

:12:09.:12:11.

continuation of free movement, which has been good for the UK and our

:12:12.:12:16.

economy. In 2016 people voted for Brexit. Do you not accept that

:12:17.:12:20.

limiting free movement was part of that vote? That was obviously apart,

:12:21.:12:26.

the question of immigration. There was a recent YouGov Poll but said

:12:27.:12:31.

people would accept free movement of labour if there was a deal on the

:12:32.:12:37.

single market. So yes, obviously immigration was a factor, but the

:12:38.:12:41.

fact of the matter is, free movement of labour in this country has been a

:12:42.:12:45.

good thing. John, they are basically saying is the best way to protect

:12:46.:12:49.

and advance the interests of all workers. What you to that? I'm not

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sure that's right. I think what's happened in this country is we have

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had a large amount of immigration from people from Eastern Europe with

:12:57.:13:02.

low income expectations and have come in and competed quite strongly

:13:03.:13:05.

at the lower end of the labour market and the bank of England

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produced a report showing this was depressing wages. Depressing wages

:13:10.:13:13.

very slightly and it was only one report that quoted quite heavily.

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The bank of England have made that smaller since then. I think there

:13:20.:13:23.

was controversy in doubt about the extent to which this has happened

:13:24.:13:26.

but it is hard to believe having large numbers of people coming in

:13:27.:13:29.

who are quite prepared to work for lower wages and people who have lots

:13:30.:13:34.

of aspirations and are prepared to work hard doesn't have some effect

:13:35.:13:38.

on the labour market. I think also because we have had such a big

:13:39.:13:41.

influx of people who are prepared to work for low wages, this is

:13:42.:13:46.

discouraging investment in the UK, productivity has been stuck in this

:13:47.:13:50.

country for nearly ten years now. I think there are downsides to having

:13:51.:13:54.

complete freedom of movement of labour. I think what the Labour

:13:55.:13:58.

Party really needs to do and the country needs to do is put some

:13:59.:14:02.

constraints on labour but have is free movement as they can have of

:14:03.:14:05.

people on high incomes and who have the skills that the economy needs.

:14:06.:14:10.

How do you respond to that, Billy? That there has been an impact on

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lower paid workers? You yourself just said is debatable. But what's

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interesting is the reaction to the Tory proposals. A friend of mine was

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trying to get through to the offices of the CBI yesterday in the

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switchboard was jammed with businesses saying that recent Tory

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proposal. The leaked proposals that suggest a pretty big crackdown? Yes.

:14:33.:14:38.

The CBI, the switchboard was jammed yesterday with people trying to get

:14:39.:14:41.

through to say what is this nonsense they are talking about, in terms of

:14:42.:14:46.

restriction of low skilled... The leaked to talk about? Is a

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businesses were talking about it, we didn't hear much from the Labour

:14:52.:14:55.

front trench. Even Diane Abbott, who has talked about the virtues of free

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movement, hardly had anything to say about it.

:14:59.:15:04.

The Labour campaign for free movement is about supporting those

:15:05.:15:09.

people in the party and wider society who think immigration has

:15:10.:15:13.

been good for this country and has helped in lots of areas. A woman and

:15:14.:15:18.

the other day talking about the impact and care homes of these -- if

:15:19.:15:25.

these restrictions come in. The CBI is against the government proposals.

:15:26.:15:28.

I know you can't speak for the Labour front bench but you know

:15:29.:15:31.

quite a lot of the figures on the front bench and do you know if any

:15:32.:15:35.

of them are supporting opposition? We have some MPs supporting, I can

:15:36.:15:42.

tell you that full list, but Clive Lewis is one of the supporters of

:15:43.:15:46.

the campaign. Without naming them, any other people? I know people on

:15:47.:15:51.

the front bench who are supporting it. This campaign is going to take

:15:52.:15:57.

off because people see we are going to be in the single market and if

:15:58.:16:00.

were going to be in the customs union, there needs to be free

:16:01.:16:03.

movement of labour as well. Labour went into the election saying free

:16:04.:16:08.

movement will end, John McDonnell has said it, Jeremy Corbyn has said

:16:09.:16:12.

it. I'm not speaking for the Labour front bench. I'm speaking for those

:16:13.:16:16.

people in the party... You think Labour should go against its

:16:17.:16:19.

manifesto? It wouldn't be the first time a party has gone against its

:16:20.:16:27.

manifesto. We need to stiffen the sinews of those mems of the party

:16:28.:16:30.

that believes the free movement of labour has been a good thing for the

:16:31.:16:34.

country. John this is challenging for Labour. Voters on both sides are

:16:35.:16:39.

very passionate. I think they are and there is a large majority who

:16:40.:16:45.

are in favour of a reasonable amount of immigration but not unrestricted

:16:46.:16:48.

immigration. If Billy's campaign is going to allow everyone in the EU,

:16:49.:16:52.

why don't we let everyone in from the whole of the world? There is

:16:53.:16:57.

some illogical inking here. What do you think about a post-brexit-mac

:16:58.:17:03.

system? I thought it was too restrictive and Draconian. What sort

:17:04.:17:06.

of system would you like to see? We would like to see some constraints

:17:07.:17:10.

of free movement of labour from Eastern Europe but a free system as

:17:11.:17:16.

we can devise for people who the economy needs for all sorts of

:17:17.:17:19.

purposes, and some of them are highly skilled, and some of them are

:17:20.:17:23.

fruit because. And where will this go in the Labour conference? It will

:17:24.:17:31.

be a bunfight. We've seen this in the Labour Party and Keir Starmer

:17:32.:17:34.

has manoeuvred the party into quite cleverly into a position without too

:17:35.:17:37.

much trouble. If you speak quietly and I'm sure you have done it to

:17:38.:17:42.

Labour MPs, particularly the ones from the north, where a lot of

:17:43.:17:46.

people voted Brexit, they are nervous about Labour's current

:17:47.:17:50.

position. They're worried voters will turn around and say you're

:17:51.:17:52.

trying to stop Brexit happening altogether. That said, Isabel

:17:53.:17:57.

Oakeshott, Jeremy Corbyn did say he'd and free movement. If asked if

:17:58.:18:02.

numbers would come down, he said maybe. They did well in the election

:18:03.:18:06.

without going too hard on immigration. The legal high the

:18:07.:18:12.

talks about it being possible to Renee on your manifesto. Recent

:18:13.:18:18.

history of parties that blithely ignore their commitments isn't

:18:19.:18:20.

pretty. Look what happened to the Lib Dems. The Tories have learnt a

:18:21.:18:25.

few things to their cost as well. I found it extraordinary you were not

:18:26.:18:28.

challenged McCain Brexit is a disaster. Where is your evidence for

:18:29.:18:34.

that? We haven't got Brexit yet. You repeatedly claimed people want free

:18:35.:18:40.

movement of people. The result of the Brexit referendum was clearly

:18:41.:18:44.

indicating people want an end of free movement of people and I find

:18:45.:18:48.

it very strange that you continue to press for this and I think your

:18:49.:18:52.

campaign is going nowhere. It wouldn't be the first time a

:18:53.:18:55.

journalist has told me a campaign in I'm involved in is going nowhere. It

:18:56.:19:01.

is a good point, isn't it? You make promises in an election and you can

:19:02.:19:05.

just break them. Also, how do you know Brexit is going to be a

:19:06.:19:10.

disaster? If you talk to the business community about the impact

:19:11.:19:14.

of the talks, we haven't even left the EU yet and the impact of the

:19:15.:19:19.

talks... If you talk to people in business and the CBI, they can see

:19:20.:19:22.

what is looming large in terms of it. If we are going to be in the

:19:23.:19:30.

single market, just what is being currently mentioned, and the customs

:19:31.:19:34.

union, as we seem to be moving towards... Where'd you get that

:19:35.:19:38.

from? We will not remain in the single market and Customs union.

:19:39.:19:42.

That is not the government position. That is the Labour position. It is

:19:43.:19:46.

but that is looking like it will happen. If you are in the single

:19:47.:19:52.

market, you must support the free movement of labour. I using Labour

:19:53.:19:57.

should keep that as a permanent position? I don't speak for the

:19:58.:20:01.

Labour Party, I'm speaking for this campaign and we are campaigning to

:20:02.:20:06.

make sure... You are running to be chairman of a important committee.

:20:07.:20:13.

So you do speak for the Labour Party. I haven't been elected yet so

:20:14.:20:19.

I can't take responsibility for a committee I haven't been elected to.

:20:20.:20:25.

All the people for Brexit, the fact of the matter is that free movement

:20:26.:20:32.

of labour in the European Union has been a good thing for this country.

:20:33.:20:38.

It is not a fact! It is not justified! How damaging could these

:20:39.:20:44.

differences before the Labour Party? It isn't good for the Labour Party

:20:45.:20:47.

to have these differences. It would be better if the Labour Party could

:20:48.:20:51.

coalesce around the policy and support the government and unite the

:20:52.:20:54.

country and these negotiations. It is difficult but that is what Labour

:20:55.:20:58.

should be doing rather than further dividing the country by some of

:20:59.:21:01.

these sorts of proposals we've heard. OK, we will keep an eye on

:21:02.:21:03.

all of it. Well, yesterday MPs began debating

:21:04.:21:04.

the EU Withdrawal Bill which will transfer existing EU law

:21:05.:21:06.

onto the UK statute book. The bill has been controversial

:21:07.:21:09.

because of the inclusion of so-called Henry VIII powers,

:21:10.:21:11.

which would give Ministers the freedom to make changes

:21:12.:21:14.

to the law without full Put simply, this bill

:21:15.:21:16.

is an essential step. Whilst it does not take us out

:21:17.:21:30.

of the European Union, that's a matter for the Article 50

:21:31.:21:33.

process, it does ensure on the day we leave,

:21:34.:21:38.

businesses know where they stand, workers' rights are upheld,

:21:39.:21:41.

and consumers remain protected. This bill is vital to ensuring

:21:42.:21:44.

that, as we leave, we do The Secretary of State,

:21:45.:21:47.

keen to betray this bill as a technical exercise,

:21:48.:21:53.

converting EU law into our law without raising any serious

:21:54.:21:57.

constitutional issues Nothing could be

:21:58.:21:59.

further from the truth. This bill invites us to surrender

:22:00.:22:06.

all power and influence over that question to the government

:22:07.:22:17.

and to ministers. That would betray everything

:22:18.:22:20.

that we were sent here to do. This is clearly a necessary

:22:21.:22:23.

piece of legislation. We start from the simple principle

:22:24.:22:26.

how necessary this is the idea that we have to get all of that

:22:27.:22:29.

European law and regulation transposed into UK law applicable

:22:30.:22:32.

and actionable in UK law, properly, so that it is properly

:22:33.:22:39.

justiciable at the end of the day. They said that this would be this

:22:40.:22:43.

great opportunity to get rid Miles of red tape, all these things

:22:44.:22:45.

that were strangling British These are the very same things

:22:46.:22:50.

we are going to take lock, stock and barrel and plays

:22:51.:22:55.

into substantive British law. The government claims the bill

:22:56.:22:58.

will restore sovereignty to Parliament and secure

:22:59.:23:02.

certainty post Brexit. It transfers huge powers

:23:03.:23:05.

to ministers, not to members of this house, over issues that are vital

:23:06.:23:10.

to peoples like maternity like maternity or paternity leave,

:23:11.:23:20.

holidays, environmental standards We have got to make sure,

:23:21.:23:22.

Madam Deputy Speaker, that on the day of exit,

:23:23.:23:26.

the statute book in And, frankly, the only

:23:27.:23:29.

way that we can achieve it in the timescale

:23:30.:23:32.

with which we are constrained and which is set out in Article 50

:23:33.:23:34.

is to have a flexible, pragmatic system, such as the system

:23:35.:23:38.

that is laid out in the draft Bill. If the government isn't

:23:39.:23:45.

going to move in the next two days of debate, well,

:23:46.:23:49.

I think we may have to force it to go back to the drawing

:23:50.:23:52.

board and try again. This is a vital bill and we cannot

:23:53.:23:59.

leave without this bill on the statute book. I would be no position

:24:00.:24:08.

to support it a third reading in its current form. It is in many respects

:24:09.:24:12.

an astonishing monstrosity of a bill.

:24:13.:24:15.

Well, a little earlier I spoke to the Tory

:24:16.:24:17.

I began by asking him whether he understood why

:24:18.:24:21.

some of his Conservative colleagues were so uncomfortable with handing

:24:22.:24:24.

these so-called Henry VIII statutory powers to Whitehall.

:24:25.:24:29.

We've had Henry VIII powers in our legislation for many,

:24:30.:24:31.

many years, and, indeed, in the European Communities Act,

:24:32.:24:34.

back in the early 70s, has the biggest Henry VIII

:24:35.:24:38.

European law is simply brought straight into our

:24:39.:24:41.

legislation without any Parliamentary scrutiny whatsoever.

:24:42.:24:45.

With this bill, we actually get Parliamentary scrutiny

:24:46.:24:48.

on transcribing European law into our own domestic legislation.

:24:49.:24:53.

So just to be clear, Dominic Grieve is wrong when he calls it

:24:54.:24:56.

I think Dominic has obviously got concerns about that.

:24:57.:25:00.

I respect those concerns, but my biggest concern is how

:25:01.:25:03.

we make sure that we get on with the task of Brexit.

:25:04.:25:08.

My constituents raise with me the issues about money,

:25:09.:25:11.

the issues about making sure there are no queues at Dover,

:25:12.:25:13.

they don't raise with me the issues about Parliamentary scrutiny.

:25:14.:25:16.

They want to make sure that we're focused on making sure

:25:17.:25:18.

we have an effective Brexit that works for Britain.

:25:19.:25:20.

We have a Parliamentary mathematics at the moment,

:25:21.:25:23.

which is going to make things quite difficult for you.

:25:24.:25:25.

We know that the Labour Party is really worried about these

:25:26.:25:28.

powers, which are essentially allowing the government

:25:29.:25:30.

to change regulations without Parliamentary scrutiny.

:25:31.:25:33.

Do you think the government is going to have to concede

:25:34.:25:36.

There is Parliamentary scrutiny, because each of these regulations,

:25:37.:25:39.

about 1,000 regulations in all, can be called in and voted

:25:40.:25:42.

In fact, if Parliament voted on each regulation and debated each

:25:43.:25:47.

regulation it would be doing nothing between now and Brexit day.

:25:48.:25:51.

So, yes, we need scrutiny where it's appropriate,

:25:52.:25:53.

but we also need to get on with the task at hand,

:25:54.:25:56.

to make sure we transcribe European law into our domestic legislation,

:25:57.:25:59.

and then we can then move on with the many

:26:00.:26:01.

In which case, do you think the colleagues who vote

:26:02.:26:05.

against certain aspects of the bill are essentially voting

:26:06.:26:07.

I think the really important thing is that we have this bill,

:26:08.:26:12.

it's a processed bill, we've put in place the machinery

:26:13.:26:15.

to bring European law into British law, we've passed these regulations.

:26:16.:26:20.

Do that transcription process, and then, over time, clearly,

:26:21.:26:22.

as we've taken back control of our legal system,

:26:23.:26:25.

we can look at the detail of the laws and see what works

:26:26.:26:28.

A number of your colleagues have signed this letter

:26:29.:26:31.

that was going to be published in a Sunday newspaper

:26:32.:26:34.

to Theresa May, essentially saying do not allow a transitional period

:26:35.:26:37.

Will you be adding your name to that letter?

:26:38.:26:44.

This is not a letter that was right for me,

:26:45.:26:46.

I thought it was too prescriptive, but it was very much not aimed

:26:47.:26:49.

at our government but aimed at the Labour Party,

:26:50.:26:51.

who have changed their position since the general election.

:26:52.:26:53.

They had an election manifesto that said they would end

:26:54.:26:56.

uncontrolled immigration, leave the single market,

:26:57.:26:57.

they said they would take back control of trade policy,

:26:58.:27:00.

leave the customs union, and they've performed a massive u-turn,

:27:01.:27:03.

talking about a transitional period without end.

:27:04.:27:06.

A bit like Hotel California, you can check out any time you like,

:27:07.:27:09.

So you're saying this isn't aimed at Theresa May?

:27:10.:27:12.

The government have been really clear.

:27:13.:27:15.

They've said look, we're leaving the single market...

:27:16.:27:17.

The Labour Party isn't making the policy?

:27:18.:27:20.

We're leaving the single market, we're leaving the customs union,

:27:21.:27:22.

we're going to finish up the implementation period by the

:27:23.:27:25.

Labour has done a u-turn and this letter is about highlighting how

:27:26.:27:29.

Labour are backsliding and are having this transition

:27:30.:27:32.

And you're part of this group - the European Research Group -

:27:33.:27:38.

which is Tory backbenchers, essentially, pushing to make sure

:27:39.:27:41.

It is chaired by your colleague Suella Fernandes and she,

:27:42.:27:46.

it appears, has circulated this letter among colleagues.

:27:47.:27:51.

Some people are saying that as such, she should lose her position

:27:52.:27:54.

The European Research Group is what it says on the tin,

:27:55.:28:02.

it's a group that looks at and researches into all the laws

:28:03.:28:05.

which are going through Parliament at the moment on Brexit.

:28:06.:28:07.

It includes people who backed Leave, it includes people like me

:28:08.:28:10.

who backed Remain, all of us are united by taking a real interest

:28:11.:28:13.

in making sure we have a Brexit that works for Britain.

:28:14.:28:16.

But you are very much pushing for Brexit to take place,

:28:17.:28:18.

and this letter, some might say, is essentially lobbying

:28:19.:28:20.

It's not that we're pushing for Brexit to take place,

:28:21.:28:24.

we're pushing to make sure the referendum is respected,

:28:25.:28:27.

the instruction of the British people to leave the European Union

:28:28.:28:29.

is respected, that we take back control of our borders,

:28:30.:28:32.

end uncontrolled EU immigration and make sure that we have a trade

:28:33.:28:35.

policy which is made in London and Britain and not in Brussels.

:28:36.:28:38.

But some of your colleagues have been pretty angry about this letter.

:28:39.:28:41.

Steven Hammond said that rebel MPs should sign and resign.

:28:42.:28:46.

That might include Suella but also, although he hasn't signed

:28:47.:28:48.

it, there is some talk about Steve Baker, who used

:28:49.:28:51.

to run your group and now is a Brexit Minister and appears

:28:52.:28:54.

to have added his name to a Whatsapp group perhaps around it.

:28:55.:29:02.

Nicky Morgan, meanwhile, says it's not fair for ministers

:29:03.:29:04.

to be heavily involved in backbench affairs when they are involved

:29:05.:29:06.

Do you disagree with Steven Hammond and Nicky Morgan?

:29:07.:29:09.

I think they've misunderstood, they've misunderstood

:29:10.:29:11.

It's not aimed at the government, it's aimed at the Labour Party,

:29:12.:29:15.

who are hopelessly split on the whole issue of Brexit.

:29:16.:29:18.

You've got Jeremy Corbyn who seems to want to leave,

:29:19.:29:20.

you've got the Labour MPs who seem to want to defy the referendum

:29:21.:29:23.

and remain in Europe, and what we're highlighting

:29:24.:29:25.

is a transition period without end is not leaving the European Union.

:29:26.:29:31.

You say it's for the Labour Party, but is it addressed

:29:32.:29:33.

It's addressed to set out what should happen

:29:34.:29:36.

and that there should be a transitional period with an end,

:29:37.:29:39.

I'm not sentry of this letter, I don't know what the purpose

:29:40.:29:47.

of this letter is, but I've read the text and the text is very

:29:48.:29:51.

clearly that there should be a transition period with an end,

:29:52.:29:53.

and that is the current government policy, and the Labour Party have

:29:54.:29:56.

They've done a u-turn and the concern is that they want us

:29:57.:30:00.

to remain in the European Union by stealth.

:30:01.:30:02.

So you're certain it's not to Theresa May, it's not in any way

:30:03.:30:06.

I think the government have a really clear position.

:30:07.:30:11.

I think the most important thing is not letters, not process,

:30:12.:30:14.

it is making sure we have a Brexit that works for Britain,

:30:15.:30:17.

supporting the government in their negotiations with Brussels,

:30:18.:30:19.

and the real question is how do we make sure that Brussels gets

:30:20.:30:22.

on the negotiations, so we can give more certainty

:30:23.:30:24.

to the businesses and people of this country in what Brexit

:30:25.:30:26.

And you are very comfortable with Suella both leading your ERG

:30:27.:30:30.

Suella is an outstanding ministery aide.

:30:31.:30:35.

She works really hard, does a great job in the Treasury.

:30:36.:30:38.

Steve Baker has made a flying start as a minister.

:30:39.:30:40.

They are both excellent people, and they deserve to be supported.

:30:41.:30:47.

Conservative MP Charlie Elphicke talking to me earlier.

:30:48.:30:54.

Was this letter designed to lobby government? I think what the letter

:30:55.:31:03.

shows is a scale of concern within the Tory Parliamentary party, about

:31:04.:31:09.

the possibility of a rather elongated transition period. There

:31:10.:31:12.

were differing views within the cabinet about how long the

:31:13.:31:16.

transition period should last. I think there is an acceptance on the

:31:17.:31:20.

part of even the most strident Brexit ministers that there has to

:31:21.:31:24.

be a transition period and that that will be probably around two years

:31:25.:31:30.

and it must have a. . As Charlie Elphicke said, the grave concern is

:31:31.:31:34.

about Labour's position on the idea they want to continue the so-called

:31:35.:31:39.

transitionary period until everything is worked out. That is a

:31:40.:31:43.

how long is a piece of string situation. In fairness, you can't

:31:44.:31:48.

blame Labour and people like Keir Starmer for wanting to extend it as

:31:49.:31:50.

long as possible because they don't believe we should leave anyway.

:31:51.:31:55.

There is this European research group, doing a bit of research on

:31:56.:31:58.

Brexit and it is all government policy. Led by Suella Fernandez. She

:31:59.:32:12.

is definitely sailing close to the wind. It is... Steve Baker resigned

:32:13.:32:20.

from the group. Exactly. The one thing Charlie Elphicke said which I

:32:21.:32:24.

thought was a little disingenuous, he said this group is just what is,

:32:25.:32:27.

a European research group. They've come up with the most boring

:32:28.:32:31.

sounding name for their caucus they possibly can, to make it sound as an

:32:32.:32:40.

interesting and as they can... Is it sinister? If that is your

:32:41.:32:44.

deformation of sinister, a lot of things will spook you out! Theresa

:32:45.:32:48.

May is dealing with real big competing factions in her party. And

:32:49.:32:55.

what's interesting about it as well, this messaging service Whatsapp has

:32:56.:32:59.

had a big impact in Parliament. It's allowing MPs to organise quickly and

:33:00.:33:01.

effectively and I'm sure the other side are doing it as well, we just

:33:02.:33:05.

don't know the name of their Whatsapp group yet. It is allowing

:33:06.:33:08.

them to be very disciplined, they can talk to each other all through

:33:09.:33:13.

the day, people are just coming out and saying things... Or ill

:33:14.:33:16.

disciplined at making trouble. I think it is worth pointing out the

:33:17.:33:21.

ministerial aide concerned, Suella, not a senior figure in the

:33:22.:33:26.

government. It is the bottom rung of the ladder as it were. I don't think

:33:27.:33:29.

this is an excessively disloyal manoeuvre. We are in a very heated

:33:30.:33:33.

period for Brexit debate on this is just a bunch of MPs who want to make

:33:34.:33:40.

sure that the government stands firm. What I could think no question

:33:41.:33:43.

she should lose her job over this? In my view no, but it is not up to

:33:44.:33:49.

me. I think it's unlikely, but partly for Theresa May is not in a

:33:50.:33:52.

strong position to do anything that might upset such a big number... Is

:33:53.:33:58.

one of her problems, because she has no majority, both sides of this

:33:59.:34:01.

debate are essentially holding her prisoner to some extent? That is

:34:02.:34:06.

exactly right. Yesterday she had two different rebellions from different

:34:07.:34:09.

parts of the party on the same day in the Commons. Dominic Grieve

:34:10.:34:13.

attacking her bill to get Brexit through and on the same day, putting

:34:14.:34:17.

together this lobbying letter about how hard Brexit is. She's in an

:34:18.:34:22.

impossible position and there is nothing she can do because she has

:34:23.:34:26.

no Commons majority. The people like Dominic Reid who are laying into the

:34:27.:34:31.

EU Withdrawal Bill, are they trying to scupper Brexit? I wouldn't go

:34:32.:34:35.

that far. I have the greatest respect for Dominic Grieve. He

:34:36.:34:37.

argued very powerful yesterday made the point the bill itself is

:34:38.:34:42.

essential. I think there is a bit of using this as a proxy for just a

:34:43.:34:48.

fundamental anti-Brexit position. I read, the editor of the Evening

:34:49.:34:54.

Standard George Osborne's column on this, the editorial fostered by

:34:55.:34:57.

expected to disagree with every word but found myself rather attracted to

:34:58.:35:02.

his rhetoric, to talk about the importance of Parliament and

:35:03.:35:05.

democracy, it sounds brilliant, but remember, a lot of these powers are

:35:06.:35:09.

ones we blithely nodded away to Brussels and we are doing is

:35:10.:35:11.

bringing them back here. I didn't hear all these people making cry

:35:12.:35:18.

when we transferred these from our jurisdiction to Brussels. Lots more

:35:19.:35:21.

on that next week. Now, earlier this year

:35:22.:35:22.

the prime minister announced there was to be a new statue

:35:23.:35:24.

in Parliament Square, just over And, for the first time,

:35:25.:35:27.

it will honour a woman. Here's Elizabeth Glinka

:35:28.:35:31.

with the story. There are currently nine statues

:35:32.:35:42.

here in Parliament Square Not their politics or

:35:43.:35:45.

even their nationality, We have waited too long

:35:46.:35:52.

for political justice. The voice of Emmeline Pankhurst,

:35:53.:35:56.

but it's not the famous suffragette who's set to become the first statue

:35:57.:36:05.

of a woman in Parliament Square. That honour will go

:36:06.:36:08.

to her contemporary, the tireless but rather more

:36:09.:36:14.

moderate feminist campaigner Millicent Garrett Fawcett,

:36:15.:36:16.

who was president of the National Union of

:36:17.:36:18.

Women Suffrage Societies And this is where she'll stand,

:36:19.:36:20.

nestled between Disraeli She's often known as a suffragist

:36:21.:36:25.

and a constitutional campaign because she never got involved

:36:26.:36:32.

with militancy and didn't But what's interesting about this

:36:33.:36:34.

statue and the design that Gillian Wearing has done,

:36:35.:36:37.

is that the plinth will feature 52 other suffrage campaigners,

:36:38.:36:40.

both militant and constitutional, who all campaigned

:36:41.:36:45.

for votes for women. There are those, aren't there,

:36:46.:36:47.

that say that she was a kind of drawing-room activist,

:36:48.:36:50.

and that maybe we should have someone who was a bit more thrusting

:36:51.:36:52.

as the first woman in Parliament She was just absolutely fantastic

:36:53.:36:55.

and there is no way she sat at home She spoke regularly,

:36:56.:37:03.

she campaigned behind-the-scenes, So, no, I don't think she was

:37:04.:37:06.

a hidden or passive figure at all. The statue is due to be unveiled

:37:07.:37:11.

next year but which other great ladies might lay claim

:37:12.:37:15.

to Dame Fawcett's spot? Another strong candidate would be

:37:16.:37:19.

Mary Wollstonecraft, who was a feminist thinker,

:37:20.:37:21.

and she wrote if indication Now, there is a campaign

:37:22.:37:23.

for a statue of her already, called Mary On The Green,

:37:24.:37:31.

and that's to be in North London. But she was so influential

:37:32.:37:34.

as a feminist thinker, and she also campaigned for women

:37:35.:37:36.

to be equally represented in Parliament, so she's somebody

:37:37.:37:38.

who has had a real influence on feminist and equality thinking

:37:39.:37:41.

over the course of two centuries. Or how about the formidable

:37:42.:37:46.

Nancy Astor, the first woman to sit But I like fighting,

:37:47.:37:49.

but I like fighting for justice. Then, of course, there

:37:50.:38:01.

is the Manchester last Emmeline Pankhurst, who famously

:38:02.:38:03.

advocated deeds not words, and was imprisoned

:38:04.:38:06.

for her militant tactics. And speaking of Emmeline,

:38:07.:38:12.

here she is in Victoria Gardens, just around the corner

:38:13.:38:15.

from Parliament Square. Now, for many people,

:38:16.:38:18.

she is the leading figure of the women's suffrage movement,

:38:19.:38:22.

so they might be asking why And joining me now to discuss this

:38:23.:38:24.

is Sam Smethers, Chief Executive of the Fawcett Society

:38:25.:38:40.

and June Purvis, Professor of Women's and Gender History

:38:41.:38:42.

at the University of Portsmouth. Now, Sam, we have heard of the

:38:43.:38:56.

Fawcett Society but Millicent Fawcett not exactly a household name

:38:57.:39:00.

like Emmeline Pankhurst, a bit more of a gradualist, non-violent

:39:01.:39:03.

campaign. Why is she the right choice? Because she made her life's

:39:04.:39:12.

work. She spent 62 years working for it. She was there to do the

:39:13.:39:21.

groundwork, the hard graft of lobbying and holding meetings all

:39:22.:39:26.

over the country, mobilising people to demonstrations and marches, she

:39:27.:39:29.

did that for many years before the suffragettes emerged onto the scene

:39:30.:39:33.

to take the camp forward -- campaign forward. She was there to pick up

:39:34.:39:36.

the pieces once the war had started... She supported their bid

:39:37.:39:44.

the beginning, fund raised for them, but once she felt their activity was

:39:45.:39:48.

counter-productive, she distanced herself from them. She sealed the

:39:49.:39:54.

deal, negotiated votes for women with Lloyd George. It was her? It

:39:55.:39:58.

was her that led the delegation to do that and in 1928 she was there.

:39:59.:40:05.

June, at the right woman? No, I don't think so. I'm in favour of

:40:06.:40:11.

having two stat to use, one of Millicent Fawcett on one of Emmeline

:40:12.:40:13.

Pankhurst and they should be in canning green. Why canning green?

:40:14.:40:21.

That is the campaign Nigel Thorne has been mounting, to have it there.

:40:22.:40:27.

I think churlishly and in a mean spirit the Fawcett supporters have

:40:28.:40:31.

said no, it has got to be this stat you in Parliament Square. Tell me

:40:32.:40:38.

why Fawcett is on the right person? Because it is Emmeline Pankhurst,

:40:39.:40:42.

her name that is associated with the votes for women campaign. Fairly so

:40:43.:40:50.

why not? Fairly so. Her and her supporters campaigned and gave their

:40:51.:40:53.

all to win the vote, right up to 1914. Emmeline herself was

:40:54.:41:00.

imprisoned 13 times. She went on hunger strike but was never forcibly

:41:01.:41:09.

fed. And from 1913, she also went on first strike as well as sleep

:41:10.:41:13.

strike. She has got a statue around the corner. Yes, but that was raised

:41:14.:41:20.

by private subscriptions, by all her admirers, it wasn't by public

:41:21.:41:28.

subscription. This stat is being supported by a Conservative

:41:29.:41:31.

government and paid out of public funds. Emmeline has never had

:41:32.:41:36.

recognition, publicly, by public funds for her contribution to

:41:37.:41:43.

democracy. That is a point, Emmeline Pankhurst was in prison and had to

:41:44.:41:46.

be. Because she was on hunger strike. Emily Davidson killed for

:41:47.:41:51.

the cause. Some might say that Fawcett is a somewhat boring choice.

:41:52.:41:59.

What she is is a leader. Is tempered but not a leader? She is. I think

:42:00.:42:05.

temperament should be commemorated as well, I'm not arguing against

:42:06.:42:09.

commemorating the women and I don't want us to pit one woman against

:42:10.:42:12.

another when there are so few. I support Mary Wollstonecraft. I

:42:13.:42:18.

really think it is time for another look, but let's not argue against

:42:19.:42:24.

Millicent Fawcett, but get behind it because it has been too long. Why

:42:25.:42:32.

are divisions? I think what you're doing in supporting Millicent and

:42:33.:42:36.

the Conservative government in supporting that statue is writing

:42:37.:42:39.

out of history the radical women who brought about change, and Emmeline

:42:40.:42:47.

was radical. Parliament represents non-violent democracy, it represents

:42:48.:42:52.

what Millicent Fawcett stood for. Yes, that is properly wider

:42:53.:42:55.

Conservative government in particular, and some other people

:42:56.:43:01.

are supporting that. But it is radical women, people like Emmeline

:43:02.:43:04.

Pankhurst and Emily Davidson who gave their lives for the cause and

:43:05.:43:07.

Millicent Fawcett would not attend her funeral. I think that is a very

:43:08.:43:13.

bad black mark against her. Can I just clarify one thing? We have

:43:14.:43:17.

support of the Mayor of London also and he is not a Conservative. It has

:43:18.:43:23.

cross-party support. Is it an establishment choice? I think

:43:24.:43:25.

fundamentally if you look at history and what her role was from beginning

:43:26.:43:29.

to end, she merits being there and commemorated in that way. The plinth

:43:30.:43:34.

design is intended to commemorate the suffragettes and suffragists who

:43:35.:43:37.

contributed to this campaign over the years. That's why there are 52

:43:38.:43:41.

other names and faces on the plinth. Do have a preference? Not really.

:43:42.:43:48.

What brought on to me was just how few female statues we actually have.

:43:49.:43:52.

We are looking now at a very historic figure, whose has lasted

:43:53.:43:58.

eternally as it were. I wonder whether in 50 years' time we may

:43:59.:44:02.

have a lot more female statues, because... Would you have? I knew

:44:03.:44:07.

you would ask that and I don't know the answer. Margaret Thatcher? We'll

:44:08.:44:13.

know Margaret Thatcher statues are extremely controversial. I would

:44:14.:44:16.

love to see a statue of her but she is recognised in other places. I

:44:17.:44:21.

think the real point is you walk down Whitehall and there will the

:44:22.:44:26.

start use of dusty old men comment mostly military figures who fought

:44:27.:44:31.

dubious war is 150 years ago are not sure we can be proud of it... You

:44:32.:44:35.

get to the end there is no women at all. We are scrabbling over should

:44:36.:44:39.

this important historical woman that one be honoured? They should both be

:44:40.:44:42.

honoured and is ridiculous. What we really need is a full review of all

:44:43.:44:46.

the statues around Westminster and Whitehall and they why are are half

:44:47.:44:51.

these people here? Knock some of them down? Yes, I genuinely think

:44:52.:44:57.

that. That is another issue and very controversial for another day. Thank

:44:58.:44:58.

you all for talking about. The former UKIP leader

:44:59.:45:03.

Nigel Farage is in Berlin today, speaking at a campaign event

:45:04.:45:05.

for the Alternative Elections in Germany

:45:06.:45:07.

are just a few weeks away, with Angela Merkel expected

:45:08.:45:10.

to continue as chancellor But the Alternative

:45:11.:45:14.

for Germany, or AfD as it's known, is predicted to win about 50 seats,

:45:15.:45:18.

although it has slipped Launched four years ago,

:45:19.:45:21.

the Eurosceptic party's policies include a call to declare Islam

:45:22.:45:25.

incompatible with German culture, and a plan to strip immigrants

:45:26.:45:28.

convicted of serious crimes So, what is Nigel

:45:29.:45:33.

Farage doing there? Well, he can tell us,

:45:34.:45:36.

he joins us now from Berlin. Wellcome, Nigel. What are you doing

:45:37.:45:47.

getting involved in another foreign election? Well I've been invited

:45:48.:45:54.

here by one of the candidates for the AfG, and someone who sits with

:45:55.:45:59.

me in the European group and I've known her for a long time and I

:46:00.:46:03.

think she's a good person and I'm happy to accept that invitation. I

:46:04.:46:08.

have no formal relationship of any kind with the AfG, they are part of

:46:09.:46:13.

it different political family in Europe but here we've got a massive

:46:14.:46:19.

election campaign going on, a debate last Sunday watched by 20 million

:46:20.:46:23.

Germans, and yet so far in this campaign nobody is talking about

:46:24.:46:28.

Brexit, and they should be. Why? Because the Germans sell us ?30

:46:29.:46:32.

billion worth of goods every year, more than we sell them and it is in

:46:33.:46:37.

the interest of German companies and German workers for a sensible trade

:46:38.:46:40.

deal to be struck with the United Kingdom and I want the argument to

:46:41.:46:45.

be made here that, actually, the one group of people that are holding

:46:46.:46:49.

this back and potentially damaging German jobs and their economy are

:46:50.:46:52.

the European Commission themselves. So far, we haven't had that debate.

:46:53.:46:58.

OK but the AfD was supposed to ride a European wave of Eurosceptic

:46:59.:47:02.

parties excess but it is just not happening, is it? Oh, yes! What is

:47:03.:47:10.

going to happen, whether or not you like the AfD, is we are going to see

:47:11.:47:15.

on September 25 the first time in modern Germany a party that has been

:47:16.:47:20.

deeply critical of many aspects of the European Union getting 10% plus

:47:21.:47:25.

of the vote and this is happening in Europe's biggest country. It is

:47:26.:47:30.

quite a significant moment. Brexit was all about the UK. Are you on a

:47:31.:47:33.

personal mission to destroy the whole of the EU? I don't believe in

:47:34.:47:40.

the European Union. I think Europe is a wonderful diverse continent of

:47:41.:47:44.

different peoples and countries, different nationalities, languages,

:47:45.:47:47.

cheeses, you name it, and the idea to bring us all together to be run

:47:48.:47:51.

by a bunch of unelected men in Brussels it is not desirable and the

:47:52.:47:58.

isn't working. I believe in nations that trade together and cooperate

:47:59.:48:01.

together. All sorts of things like cross-border crime and pollution,

:48:02.:48:07.

read work as neighbours but not to give away our democratic rights to

:48:08.:48:11.

Brussels. What you are seeing through these negotiations are the

:48:12.:48:14.

European Union, Brussels, putting their own interests above that of

:48:15.:48:17.

the peoples of Europe. There was a time when you wouldn't be associated

:48:18.:48:22.

with the front National and then you back to Marine Le Pen for French

:48:23.:48:28.

President. Are you now endorsing every populist European party? No,

:48:29.:48:39.

no, Mac, I backed another candidate for the French President in the

:48:40.:48:43.

first round. Had I been a French writer, would I have voted for

:48:44.:48:46.

Eurosceptic will not? That as of this. I want to repeat the point

:48:47.:48:50.

that I'm here as a result of a personal invitation I've no link

:48:51.:48:56.

with this party but it is significant they will be getting 10%

:48:57.:49:01.

of the votes on. You get a link by being fair and AfD is a party that

:49:02.:49:07.

has views beyond the fringe. For example, they've previously

:49:08.:49:11.

suggested German border guards should use weapons against illegal

:49:12.:49:14.

female refugees. You don't want to be associated with that, do you? No,

:49:15.:49:19.

I'm not head to get involved in the internal debate in German politics

:49:20.:49:23.

at all other than to say there is a glaring omission and it is quite

:49:24.:49:30.

wilful that the leading contestants do not wish to discuss Brexit at but

:49:31.:49:34.

they should be because it is in the interests of German people to do so

:49:35.:49:37.

and I'm here today and I will be in Prague next Friday and I will go

:49:38.:49:42.

around Europe making this argument and getting it hurt. And I wish that

:49:43.:49:48.

the British government, I wish the British Chambers of Commerce and

:49:49.:49:50.

other organisations were out around Europe doing it, too, because the

:49:51.:49:55.

best way to get the best trade deal for all of us in all of our

:49:56.:49:59.

interests is for Brussels to be bypassed, it is a Brussels to be

:50:00.:50:03.

told by national leaders you are doing the wrong thing. While you do

:50:04.:50:08.

that, there is an identity crisis for your own party back in the UK.

:50:09.:50:14.

Well, yes. They are having a leadership election and some might

:50:15.:50:18.

say another leadership election. And we are going to have the results in

:50:19.:50:23.

a couple of weeks' time. Like all parties, there are different wings.

:50:24.:50:29.

I am not taking sides. I think for ex-leaders to attempt to be

:50:30.:50:33.

back-seat drivers is a bad idea but I would argue that Ukip really

:50:34.:50:39.

always was from the very beginning a party that did believe in liberty,

:50:40.:50:44.

freedom, and tolerance. I am as worried as the next person about the

:50:45.:50:48.

rise of extremist radical as to Islam, about the weakness of our

:50:49.:50:52.

politicians to deal with this. But I've never wanted us to be against

:50:53.:50:57.

the religion and if Ukip was to go in that direction, that would be a

:50:58.:51:01.

disaster for that. So if Anne-Marie Waters was elected leader, would it

:51:02.:51:06.

be a death blow for the party? We will have to see what happens. I am

:51:07.:51:10.

not going to commit myself. I don't want to be seen to be getting too

:51:11.:51:16.

heavily involved in this. What is said at the hustings over the next

:51:17.:51:22.

couple of weeks and whoever the next leader is, it is crucial. If we go

:51:23.:51:26.

into the position where Ukip was fighting a religious war, I think

:51:27.:51:31.

that probably would be the end of it. Fantastic. Michael, thank you so

:51:32.:51:37.

much for joining us from Berlin. What you make of what Nigel Farage

:51:38.:51:41.

is doing fair Chris Hill it is sad. It hasn't happened this idea of this

:51:42.:51:46.

huge populist wave happening across Europe. I was in Austria last

:51:47.:51:50.

December for the presidential election, the closest run thing

:51:51.:51:55.

we've seen to a very populist right-wing politician being elected

:51:56.:51:57.

but it didn't happen. It didn't happen in Holland and it won't

:51:58.:52:02.

happen in Germany. It didn't happen in France, either. I am not quite

:52:03.:52:06.

sure why Nigel Farage, who has announced he got his life back after

:52:07.:52:11.

the referendum, is out campaigning for this fringe right-wing party

:52:12.:52:13.

that isn't going to have a big impact on the election. Angela

:52:14.:52:18.

Merkel is going to win by a landslide, everyone knows it. Is he

:52:19.:52:22.

trying to destroy the EU? You've misunderstood why he's there. He's

:52:23.:52:26.

not there to campaign for the party. He is there to hammer home the

:52:27.:52:31.

message that it is in the interests of German business that we get a

:52:32.:52:37.

good deal... That they and the EU strikes a favourable deal from their

:52:38.:52:41.

point of view. Whatever he says, ultimately, the individual countries

:52:42.:52:45.

are not going to negotiate with us. We know who was calling the shots

:52:46.:52:52.

here. Is AfD calling the shots? Obviously not, they are not going to

:52:53.:52:56.

be calling the shots but I don't think Nigel Farage has anything to

:52:57.:53:00.

defend by being there. He is there making the point in Britain's

:53:01.:53:04.

interest. He is making it on a platform next to the leader of the

:53:05.:53:10.

AfD! He isn't making a speech at the Chambers of Commerce. He certainly

:53:11.:53:12.

not making any intervention in the Ukip leadership right now.

:53:13.:53:14.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:53:15.:53:17.

The question was why did Labour MP Ann Clwyd miss the first vote

:53:18.:53:20.

Was it she missed the bus, her dog ate her parliament pass,

:53:21.:53:25.

she was stuck in a lift, or she thought in was still recess?

:53:26.:53:27.

So, Isabel and Jack what's the correct answer?

:53:28.:53:32.

I don't know. I was hoping there was an option of she had a headache

:53:33.:53:38.

because, as we know, Labour frontbenchers have a particular

:53:39.:53:42.

habit of missing crucial votes when they have a sore head. Sadly for me

:53:43.:53:45.

I'd do know this because in my new job I have to stay up all night

:53:46.:53:49.

reading all the newspapers. Which is why you are bleary eyed. So, go on,

:53:50.:53:55.

then, give us the answer. I couldn't tell you when went, she was stuck on

:53:56.:53:57.

the left. Mr Speaker, although I was present

:53:58.:53:57.

to vote in the first vote last I was locked not in

:53:58.:54:02.

the lavatory but in the lift. If it were not for one

:54:03.:54:09.

of the researchers of the party opposite, I suspect I would still be

:54:10.:54:12.

in the lift. Now, Westminster is back

:54:13.:54:18.

from its summer holidays and it's been a busy week,

:54:19.:54:23.

here's Chris Mason with our round up of everything that's been

:54:24.:54:26.

happening in just 60 seconds. MPs returned to debate

:54:27.:54:32.

the EU Withdrawal Bill which seeks to ensure legal

:54:33.:54:35.

continuity after Brexit. But opponents accuse ministers

:54:36.:54:39.

of acting like Henry VIII in trying A leaked government document

:54:40.:54:43.

revealed our immigration system Draft plans include ending free

:54:44.:54:49.

movement, and restricting low Strikes were on the menu at PMQs

:54:50.:54:54.

as Jeremy Corbyn raised working It's the first time UK staff under

:54:55.:55:02.

the golden arches walked out. Nicola Sturgeon unveiled

:55:03.:55:11.

the Scottish government's plans The first minister hinted she may

:55:12.:55:13.

raise taxes to pay for measures like ending the 1% cap

:55:14.:55:17.

on public sector pay. Tory MP Jacob Rees Mogg downplayed

:55:18.:55:19.

suggestions he might be Heaven knows, next you'll be

:55:20.:55:23.

offering me the papacy! Well, let's discuss some

:55:24.:55:36.

of the week's events now We saw Jacob Rees Mogg is there. A

:55:37.:55:52.

bit of a silly season 's story, the movement, people talking about him

:55:53.:55:56.

as a future Tory leadership person. People even saying he is Superman in

:55:57.:56:01.

disguise. Pretty controversial views this week on abortion and gay

:56:02.:56:06.

marriage. Does it kill his chances? To be honest, I've never really

:56:07.:56:11.

taken his chances seriously. Perhaps that is my bad. I just cannot see it

:56:12.:56:18.

happening. It would add immense to the gaiety of the nation. He is an

:56:19.:56:22.

intelligent man, some very articulate thoughts as well. It

:56:23.:56:28.

would be difficult with those views. People would massively respect he is

:56:29.:56:31.

a man of principle, he must have known when he articulated those

:56:32.:56:38.

views they would cause a storm. They are very extremely socially

:56:39.:56:41.

conservative. But we saw what happened to Tim Farron when he

:56:42.:56:45.

articulated religious views on gay marriage, which were not to with the

:56:46.:56:49.

kind of mainstream consensus, and that was very difficult for him.

:56:50.:56:53.

Does it show it is difficult to be deeply religious and be deeply

:56:54.:56:55.

religious and beer front line politician? It would seem so. It

:56:56.:56:59.

seems to be one of the things we've learned this year. We rule out Jacob

:57:00.:57:05.

Rees Mogg's chances? We ruled out Jeremy Corbyn's! 200-1! Was your

:57:06.:57:14.

money and Jeremy from the beginning? Mayor, I was referring to Trump.

:57:15.:57:20.

There is the received wisdom about politics. I wouldn't rule anything

:57:21.:57:24.

out. What you have to remember is when Theresa May goes, and she will

:57:25.:57:29.

sooner rather than later... She says later. She can say what she likes

:57:30.:57:32.

but I don't think a party think so. No one takes it seriously stop

:57:33.:57:36.

though it won't be the country who decides, it'll be the small number

:57:37.:57:41.

of conservative grassroots members who might quite like Jacob Rees

:57:42.:57:44.

Mogg. Sadiq Khan says he's been snubbed at the Labour conference,

:57:45.:57:48.

he's not giving a speech. What is behind that? There's been a real

:57:49.:57:51.

clamp-down by Jeremy Corbyn's offers who's been allowed to have speeches.

:57:52.:57:59.

No Sadiq Khan, no Andy Burnham, no mayor of Merseyside. And a lot of

:58:00.:58:03.

the shadow cabinet ministers have been told no speeches because it is

:58:04.:58:08.

all about Jeremy, I think. What they are saying, in fairness, is they

:58:09.:58:11.

want to give space to delegates and normal party members. What if David

:58:12.:58:16.

Cameron had stopped Boris in this way? He might have had an even more

:58:17.:58:21.

rocky eve of conference than he did every year anyway. Boris was

:58:22.:58:24.

creating trouble just before conference anyway. I get the

:58:25.:58:27.

impression Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want to be outshone by some of these

:58:28.:58:32.

big names. I very much doubt it. Trouble being made beforehand. Thank

:58:33.:58:36.

you very much for joining me. Thanks to my guests,

:58:37.:58:38.

especially Isabel and Jack. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:39.:58:40.

over on BBC One now. Jo will be back here

:58:41.:58:43.

on BBC Two on Monday at midday

:58:44.:58:47.

Anushka Asthana is joined by political journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Jack Blanchard. They look at Thursday's Brexit Bill in the Commons and a campaign within the Labour Party to support free movement after Brexit.

There is also a discussion on who should be the first woman to be commemorated with a statue in Parliament Square.