07/09/2017 Daily Politics


07/09/2017

Jo Coburn with news and debate from Westminster, including the EU Withdrawal Bill. She is joined by Katharine Birbalsingh to discuss university pay and school reform.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The government's flagship Brexit Bill

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begins what could be its arduous journey through Parliament.

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and some Conservative MPs could also make trouble along the way.

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So just how much ground will the Prime Minister have to give?

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Meanwhile the EU's chief negotiator says

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have a different Brexit deal from the rest of the UK,

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and calls for a "unique solution" to the question of the Irish border.

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Are the people running England's universities paid too much?

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Or do we need big salaries to ensure our higher education

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sector is one of the best in the world?

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Universities minister Jo Johnson joins us live.

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And, after seven years of Conservative reforms,

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and with us for the whole of the programme today

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the founder and headteacher of the Michaela Community School,

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which is a free school in north London.

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Now, today is a big day in Westminster as the debate begins

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on the government's flagship Brexit Bill.

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People like you would perhaps like to see education at the forefront of

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politics, as it was under Tony Blair and the coalition, has it been

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sidelined? Yes, I understand why, but I'm a headmistress, and so I

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think that it is the most important thing in the world, one day soon I

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hope to see it back in the limelight. As it had an impact, the

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fact that "Brexit" is much more in the thoughts of the government and

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politicians in general? It has meant that reforms have slightly stalled

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in that sense, but the old... The reforms put in at the start... But

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keep going, we have seen the impact of that in the exams this year. That

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will happen again next year, going through all the subjects. Still

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exciting times ahead, I am not too worried. We will be discussing that

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later on in the programme with you. Now, as I've said, today

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is a big day in Westminster on the government's

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flagship Brexit Bill. The European Union Withdrawal Bill,

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as its known, begins its second It's a major piece of legislation

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which is designed to give legal So what exactly will MPs

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be discussing in the first parliamentary test for

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the government's Brexit policy is to repeal the European

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Communities Act of 1972. And convert thousands of pieces

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of EU legislation into UK law. But some controversial elements

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have meant the Bill can't expect an easy passage

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through the Commons. Many MPs are concerned

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about how the government will exercise so-called

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"Henry VIII" powers which would allow ministers to make

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changes to laws to implement any withdrawal agreement

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after Brexit, sometimes without

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a vote in Parliament. Labour has already

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issued a three-line whip And the Lib Dems and SNP

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will join them. who are critical of the government's

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Brexit policy, have ruled out a rebellion

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over the Bill's second reading when a vote

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is taken on Monday. But they may take the opportunity

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to join with members of the Opposition in causing trouble

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over a so-called "programme motion". Ministers wants to limit debate

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in during the Bill's Committee stage but many MPs believe there needs

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to be more time for scrutiny. And even if it clears that hurdle

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the government faces the prospect of seeing hundreds of amendments tabled

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when the committee stage begins in the Commons after

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the party conferences. Well earlier the Brexit Minister,

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Steve Baker, told the House of Commons why

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the powers granted to the government The power was in the bill have been

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drawn widely in order that this country, this Parliament, can meet

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the imperative of delivering a working statute book on the day that

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we leave the European Union, delivering certainty, continuity and

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control, and on the area raised by the honourable gentleman, to ferment

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a withdrawal agreement that allows us to leave the European Union

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smoothly and successfully. Well in a moment I'll be

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talking to representatives But first, Lizzie Glinka

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is on College Green soaking Set the scene for us? Soaking up is

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right, we are having a glorious morning, here on the green, with all

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the rain, you can see behind me, excitement building, broadcasters

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from around the world, see NN, BBC colleagues over there, and one lone

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protester... Who arrived in the last few moments... We don't know if more

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of those will be turning out in the next hour or so. At the moment, one

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chap, you can see, getting plenty of attention from the cameras over

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there... (!) -- CNN. We can speak with Stephen Geffen, from the SNP,

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what is the problem with this Bill? A large number of problems, which go

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back to the blank page of vote to leave, the government not doing its

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job over the last 15 months, but the problem, delegated legislation,

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handing over rights of human rights and devilish and process. This is a

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huge power grab, the biggest we have seen, it was meant to be about

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democracy and taking back control but we are handing back control to

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Tory governments. This has been called a fuss about nothing,

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devolved powers will be discussed, it is even in the notes of the bill.

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Iain Duncan Smith does not have good form on this! He wants to leave the

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European Union regardless of the consequences to the economy,

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opportunities for young people. If you look at the Bill, in the value

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have areas, over devolved competencies, it says the Scottish

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Parliament and the other devolved administrations cannot legislate

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over areas that are coming back. That seems unreasonable. Monday is

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the 20th anniversary of the devil is in referendum which established the

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Scottish Parliament, seems like a real shame that on the day that we

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commemorate the 20th anniversary, that is the day that Westminster is

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taking back control from devolved administrations, reversing the

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process. Not just a concern of the SNP and the Scottish parliament but

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also Labour, the Welsh assembly, a whole range of organisations and

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political parties really worried about this. Really worried but you

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touched on the nub of it, mentioning that IDS just wants to leave, you

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wanted to remain, are you not really just trying to hold this up, trying

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to cause trouble, delay it, which would cause big problems for

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"Brexit" in the long term? The Scottish Government is the only one

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that has come up with a compromise, Scotland voted 2-1 to remain part of

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the EU, England voted to leave, so shall the compromise. Ruth Davidson,

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Tory leader, even said, look at the single market after the referendum

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last year. We are looking at compromise. What is the point in

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having a parliament and me coming down to Westminster if we do not

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scrutinise the work, not least on this bill which will have an impact

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on all of us, on the opportunities for young people, the environment,

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economy, human, big areas. Our job is to scrutinise. The government

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seems to be scared, it is striking, it does not have the courage of

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conviction to put these bills before Parliament and that is something I

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find really worrying. Lot of these can be at committee stage, talking

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about thousands of pieces of legislation here, if we don't just

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get this done, it is going to completely, it will have a huge

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impact on the negotiations and... For all the reasons I have set out,

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areas like human rights, the devil is in process, the government has

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got the bill wrong. If I think the government has got the bill wrong, I

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vote against it, that is my job, the government should not be scared of

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scrutiny. Hearing all this stuff about democracy, bring back control,

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actually, the Tories want to bring control back to them and Whitehall

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and make all the decisions. That is not the way it should work with a

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minority government, party should be pulling together and working

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together, this is bigger than any one party. OK, thank you very much.

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Interesting day ahead. I'm joined now by the

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Conservative MP Mark Harper, formerly Chief Whip

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under David Cameron, and by the Shadow Brexit

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Minister, Jenny Chapman. Welcome to the both of you. Can you

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tell us why people should not be worried about ministers having

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discretionary powers to change UK laws? For a start, Stephen has his

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facts wrong, the reason they should not, this is relevant, powers are

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constrained, in the bill that is going to be put before parliament

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getting a second reading today, it specifically does not allow

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ministers to use their delegated powers to change anything about the

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Human Rights Act or equivalent legislation. Can you change any

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primary legislation without...? Some of it. You can change coronary

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legislation normally scrutinised by Parliament... It is not

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unprecedented, worth remembering, the secondary legislation, brought

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into British law by this Bill, most of it was of course passed into law

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by exactly the same process. Layer upon layer of laws and legislation

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and that makes it difficult to unpicked, so let be clear, you can

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change primary legislation... I take your point it is not without

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precedent, but it is not usual practice, but Parliament --

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Parliament will be able to scrutinise usually. Because shooting

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committee of the House of Lords, not known for being terribly keen on

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leaving the European Union, was clear: it said, you would not

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normally do this but it excepted that because of the volume of

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legislation that needs to be brought onto the statute book by March 2019,

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so we have a smooth exit and people have legal certainty, practically,

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you have got to do it in this way, and when the bill was published, the

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government should constrain the scope of that, and the government

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has done that, so for example, cannot pass laws, to change taxes,

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change the Human Rights Act, create criminal offences. It is quite

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constrain. The government should listen to the Constitution

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committee. I have got what they have said, and the Constitution

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committee, so said David Davies, said this is the way it has to be

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done, in the way you have described, secondary legislation. The House of

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Lords Constitution committee report says, it is a source of considerable

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regret that the bill is drafted in a way that renders scrutiny very

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difficult and multiple and fundamental constitutional questions

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are left unanswered. So I'm not sure the House of Lords Constitution

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committee is signed up to the way government is going to actually

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implement this Bill? It said it was not ideal but also said it was... It

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said more than it was not ideal. 12,000 pieces of legislation into

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British law, so that there is certainty and clarity for business

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and individuals, there is no other practical way of doing it, ministers

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have been very clear, this is about copying legislation across, making

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small changes if you require it on the detail. If you are changing the

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policy intention, there will be primary legislation that will go

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through the full parliamentary scrutiny process, that is why people

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should not be concerned. The important point, the time frame, the

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clock is ticking, to actually do this Bill and go through every

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single piece of legislation and do it by Parliament so that they would

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have time to scrutinise it would take years and we would not take the

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time frame. But if I can make the point first of all, we are 15 months

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since the vote to leave and the government has been quite blase

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about taking time out in that we had the delay for the court case, then

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another... Presumably you wanted... That was not the choice of the

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government. They chose to fight it, which took months more, they also

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had a general election, which they probably now regrets... All of this

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has delayed progress. Our objection with this Bill... We look very

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carefully at the House of Lords report, it was very clear, the chair

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has been very clear, that if this were just a case of allowing

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ministers to implement technical changes, we would not be having this

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discussion. And what we want to see is a removal of the ability of

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ministers to make decisions by diktats on primary legislation. So

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it will take years, to do what you are suggesting will take longer than

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two years. It does not need to, it does not need to, Parliament needs

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to do its job, we are prepared to devote the time that is needed, the

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government does not have a new Rafael agenda at this moment,

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Parliament is not overwhelmed with legislation, we would devote as much

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time... I did the mathematics, if Parliament sat 365 days a year, it

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would take... You would have to go through 33 pieces of legislation

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every day, over that period... But you don't want to do everything. You

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would not be scrutinising it very well. But we would be doing a better

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job then we were going to be. A lot of people don't want us to leave,

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this is delaying tactics, they don't want us to leave or do not want this

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done sensibly. Dominic Grieve, former Attorney General, he says

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this Bill six to confer powers on the government to carry out "Brexit"

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in breach of constitutional principles in the way that no

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sovereign parliament would allow, is he one of those seeking to frustrate

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and delay? I don't agree with the analysis he has set out, I have

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looked at the bill carefully, and I have done that before we start

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debating in Parliament and it does not. The powers that will go to

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ministers are constrained, they are all ultimately reviewable in the

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courts. Ministers will have that in mind. If you are going to get

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legislation all statute books so you get a smooth exit and certainty for

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people, this is the sensible, practical way. Let's put the

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scenario to you, Jenny, let's say that you were able to scrutinise, or

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you were able to take more time over individual pieces of legislation and

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you hit the deadline, March, 2019: what would happen to the country

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when all those laws were not on statute books? We agree there needs

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to be a mechanism to align laws, we agree with that. In that time frame?

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We said in manifesto that the government is going about this and

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the particular bill was wrong and we would oppose it, we would introduce

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a different way of going about it. What is the different way of going

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about it? It's taken Labour a long time to get

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to this position deciding to oppose during the passage of this Bill.

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What would you do if you were in Government? That's not correct. We

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said when this Bill was first published we set out our reasons for

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opposing it. We wrote to David Davis saying what they were. If he could

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provide movement on this we wouldn't oppose. What is this bit of

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movement? We want Parliament to be properly involved. We don't like

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it... How? What the Government's going to do on Tuesday, it's going

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to setp committees That will be looking at delegated legislation

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committees looking at these instruments through The Bill. The

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Government has no majority in Parliament. But it is attempting to

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make sure it has a Conservative majority on every single one of

:16:38.:16:40.

these committees. That is not right that the Government should have the

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power to make decisions on things like workers' rights, holiday pay

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for my constituents in the committee room with the majority not in

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Parliament. Why should we trust you on that basis? First of all, Jenny's

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admitted Parliament will actually be view nighing these pieces. No,

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committee. That's different. That's how Parliament normally proceeds.

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We've been clear. If you're going to transfer this volume of legislation

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to have the certainty, you need to do it in this way. If the Labour

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Party thinks The Bill should be changed, it is open to them to do

:17:20.:17:25.

that at committee stage. If they are opposing The Bill in principle?

:17:26.:17:30.

Which is what I asked To bring the law into British law you're saying

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we'll leave the EU in a chaotic position. They're not saying that.

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They are making a stand against it. They should deal with the detail...

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That's what we will decide to do Mark, with all #r79. You say there

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is going to be scrutiny. Why only eight days in committee stage. That

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is not very long. We've two days to debate the second reading of the

:17:58.:18:00.

bill. Eight days on the floor of the House of Commons is quite a long

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period of time. How long did the Maastrict Bill have? 23 days.

:18:06.:18:10.

European Communities Act in 1972 had 22 days. This Bill is literally

:18:11.:18:15.

taking the existing ledgestration and translating it into British law.

:18:16.:18:21.

It isn't making big policy changes or handing powers to another

:18:22.:18:25.

Parliament overseas as the mat tricked Bill did. Jenny, you say it

:18:26.:18:35.

gives them the possibility. What policy area has the Government

:18:36.:18:39.

independented will make those big policy changes? We believe they'll

:18:40.:18:45.

make changes to issues like workers' rights, environmental and consumer

:18:46.:18:48.

pro texts. We're very concerned about it. Cabinet members have

:18:49.:18:53.

indicated previously that would be their intention. It is too much to

:18:54.:18:57.

ask the British people to take on trust that a Government minister

:18:58.:19:02.

given that power now, unaccountably and free of scrutiny, would resist

:19:03.:19:06.

the urge to make those changes. Would you support a Government that

:19:07.:19:11.

tries to lessen and weaken workers' rights? No, the Prime Minister's

:19:12.:19:16.

clear we're doing no such thing. This is about getting British

:19:17.:19:20.

legislation into law as it is. Let's concentrate on the substance. We've

:19:21.:19:27.

done the practicalities. There could be a situation where important

:19:28.:19:30.

protections to Jenny Chapman, her party and supporters, come into

:19:31.:19:33.

play. And you would have the potential power, I'm not saying you

:19:34.:19:36.

would necessarily exercise it, but you would have the potential power

:19:37.:19:41.

to change those protections, weaken them in the eyes of the opposition.

:19:42.:19:44.

They wouldn't be able to do anything about it. We've been very clear if

:19:45.:19:50.

we want to change any substantial issues, that will be done through

:19:51.:19:54.

primary legislation. That's not what the bill allows. The bill allows you

:19:55.:20:00.

it to happen through a process. The last time it was defeated in

:20:01.:20:03.

Parliament was 38 years ago. This is the wrong way to go about it and it

:20:04.:20:08.

is anti-democratic. We can see pictures now on the screen from

:20:09.:20:12.

inside the Commons. The debate has started. The start of what is a

:20:13.:20:18.

significant moment in the passage of this Brexit Bill even if the

:20:19.:20:22.

Government doesn't lose the vote, despite the opposition voting

:20:23.:20:25.

against it on Monday, there will be a lot of wrangling through the

:20:26.:20:30.

committee stages when amendments could be put down bioponents to the

:20:31.:20:33.

Bill within the Tory Party and the opposition. Jenny Chapman,

:20:34.:20:40.

amendments? Do you have a raft to go? We will. I'm not going to tell

:20:41.:20:46.

you what they will be. Because? We have to wait until Monday. We will

:20:47.:20:52.

have amendments as well backbench members and other opposition

:20:53.:20:56.

parties. You will see Parliament assert itself over this process.

:20:57.:21:00.

Even if we don't win the vote on Monday, Parliament will not sit back

:21:01.:21:04.

and let this go through without challenge. As an observer, listening

:21:05.:21:09.

to debate at the start of this process and this particular piece of

:21:10.:21:14.

ledgestration, it is an important moment, it will unpick the European

:21:15.:21:18.

Communities Act set up with all those laws, what's your view? I

:21:19.:21:23.

worry about the internal strive. It is much easier to sort out issues at

:21:24.:21:27.

school between children. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. People will say there are

:21:28.:21:31.

similarities sometimes dealing with MPs? I worry because I feel this is

:21:32.:21:37.

the time for the country to bind together because we have to sort out

:21:38.:21:43.

this big thing with the EU. We normal, ordinary people look to you

:21:44.:21:48.

to solve it all. You all need to be friends. That way you can sort

:21:49.:21:54.

things out. No pressure No. You two are staying with us for a little

:21:55.:21:58.

longer. We're going to stick with the Brexit theme.

:21:59.:22:00.

the EU have published some of their position papers.

:22:01.:22:03.

We've learnt that the European Union wants Northern Ireland

:22:04.:22:08.

to have a different Brexit deal from the rest of the UK.

:22:09.:22:11.

And they want the UK to take responsibility for finding a "unique

:22:12.:22:14.

solution" so people can work, go to school or get medical

:22:15.:22:17.

treatment either side of the Irish border.

:22:18.:22:19.

Let's hear what Michel Barnier, the chief Brexit negotiator

:22:20.:22:21.

for the EU, has had to say just before we came on air.

:22:22.:22:29.

The solution for the border issue will need to be unique. It cannot

:22:30.:22:38.

preconfigure the future relationship between the European Union and the

:22:39.:22:45.

UK. It will require both sides to be flexible and creative. What I see in

:22:46.:22:52.

the UK's paper on Ireland and Northern Ireland worries me. The UK

:22:53.:23:01.

wants the EU to suspend the application of its customs union and

:23:02.:23:06.

its single market as what will be a new external border for the EU. And

:23:07.:23:13.

the UK wants to use Ireland as a kind of test case for the future

:23:14.:23:21.

EU/UK custom relations. This will not happen. Michel Barnier there.

:23:22.:23:28.

We've also heard this morning that the European Commission has been

:23:29.:23:32.

critical of David Davis, the Brexit Secretary. Suggested he displayed a

:23:33.:23:37.

lack of involvement which risked de are dicing the success of the

:23:38.:23:40.

negotiations after meeting him in July. Let's speak to our old friend,

:23:41.:23:42.

less of Tell us about the minutes published

:23:43.:23:58.

about David Davis's behaviour. I've two masses of paper in front of me.

:23:59.:24:03.

These are minutes of a meeting published yesterday, last night. But

:24:04.:24:07.

the meeting happened on 12th July. It was between Jean-Claude Juncker

:24:08.:24:11.

and all the other European Commissioners in that building and

:24:12.:24:14.

Michel Barnier, the chief negotiator. They were talking about

:24:15.:24:17.

progress in the first round of Brexit talks which happened in June.

:24:18.:24:24.

It's a bit old but the stuff that Jean-Claude Juncker and Michel

:24:25.:24:28.

Barnier says is striking. President Juncker expressed his concern,

:24:29.:24:31.

according to the minutes, about the question of the stability and

:24:32.:24:35.

accountability of the UK negotiator David Davis and his apparent lack of

:24:36.:24:41.

involvement in the process which risked jeopardising the success of

:24:42.:24:44.

the negotiations. That was something repeated by Michel Barnier earlier

:24:45.:24:50.

on in the discussion. I imagine some people think that's undiplomatic

:24:51.:24:53.

language the EU side have been using about David Davis there. The

:24:54.:24:58.

spokeswoman for the commission who's speaking earlier, said things had

:24:59.:25:02.

moved on since July. If we want add real picture about how things were

:25:03.:25:05.

going we should look forward to sets of minutes released in the future

:25:06.:25:11.

relevant to more recent meetings of the EU Commission. Michel Barnier

:25:12.:25:16.

was asked about this. He said he stood next to David Davis and paid

:25:17.:25:22.

tribute to how hard he's working. The European Commission trying very

:25:23.:25:29.

hard to put this document mind him. David Davis's homework's improved!

:25:30.:25:32.

What about these commission papers and the one regarding the border

:25:33.:25:35.

between Northern Ireland and Ireland? That's this other pile of

:25:36.:25:43.

papers here. The position papers. Stuff on public procurement,

:25:44.:25:48.

intellectual data. The one which got attention is the dialogue with the

:25:49.:25:51.

UK over what to do about the Irish border. In summary, it says to the

:25:52.:25:56.

UK you're responsible for coming up with solutions to this. You're the

:25:57.:26:02.

country leaving the EU. They propose there will be a unique solution,

:26:03.:26:06.

unique for Northern Ireland. In their words, does not preconfigure

:26:07.:26:10.

the solution for the ex-of the UK. Northern Ireland, because it is a

:26:11.:26:13.

special case, will get a special deal that will not be replicated for

:26:14.:26:18.

the rest of the UK in the rest of the final Brexit withdrawal

:26:19.:26:21.

agreement done with the EU. There's also going to be exceptions

:26:22.:26:26.

potentially written into that withdrawal agreement to allow what's

:26:27.:26:30.

called cross-border co-operation. In other words, that's written into the

:26:31.:26:35.

Good Friday Agreement where north and south collaborate on things like

:26:36.:26:41.

tourism, social securely, health u fisheries and transport and nudge.

:26:42.:26:46.

In other words, day-to-day life in Northern Ireland and the Republic of

:26:47.:26:51.

Ireland will carry on as normal. This that's another case where

:26:52.:26:54.

Northern Ireland will be an exception to what happens to the

:26:55.:27:00.

lest of the UK. It was really interesting listen to Michel Barnier

:27:01.:27:04.

in the conference. He is worried about what the UK's proposed. What

:27:05.:27:09.

it's proposing about an invisible border means it will jeopardise

:27:10.:27:13.

Ireland's place in the sing the mashed and that the UK might --

:27:14.:27:17.

single market and that the UK might be using it as a test case for the

:27:18.:27:21.

rest of the Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. Michel Barnier says that

:27:22.:27:30.

will not wash. One big area of agreement from both sides, that's

:27:31.:27:33.

maintaining the common travel area, the free movement of British and

:27:34.:27:38.

Irish people between Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and

:27:39.:27:42.

the UK. Both sides worked hashed to come up with an agreement that will

:27:43.:27:46.

be maintained. That will help unlock a lot of other issues Michel

:27:47.:27:50.

Barnier's talking about. Sorry it's so complicated. You're certainly not

:27:51.:27:55.

disengaged from the process. David Davis could learn a lot clearly from

:27:56.:27:59.

you. Enjoy the rest of those papers. Are both the commission and the UK

:28:00.:28:03.

Government just publishing these endless position papers. I think

:28:04.:28:08.

there were nine. Just to show they're doing something? They are

:28:09.:28:12.

part of the dialogue. Michel Barnier said he wanted the British

:28:13.:28:15.

Government to come up with some potential solutions for the

:28:16.:28:19.

Ireland/Northern Ireland border. We published a couple of suggestions in

:28:20.:28:21.

our position paper on Northern Ireland. We confirmed that we want

:28:22.:28:27.

the Good Friday Agreement to be embedded with the withdrawal

:28:28.:28:30.

agreement. I read that position paper. There's nothing in there that

:28:31.:28:35.

anybody would intrinsically disagree with. It doesn't actually... And

:28:36.:28:43.

there's been an admission also after that position paper that the

:28:44.:28:47.

technological solution that the UK Government hoped would be put in

:28:48.:28:51.

place is just not going to work. There still isn't any progress on

:28:52.:28:56.

what will happen to costumes which is what we're talking about and

:28:57.:29:01.

trade across the board he: We put forward proposals. The commission

:29:02.:29:05.

will respond to them. There's a clear agreement Northern Ireland,

:29:06.:29:08.

that relationship is very important. It is the only external border.

:29:09.:29:13.

There's a clear commitment O'Make that work. Details need to be done

:29:14.:29:19.

to get to a final agreement. Doesn't it show this idea of sequencing

:29:20.:29:25.

negotiations is not really working. You can't really discuss the future

:29:26.:29:30.

and status of that Irish border without including what will be the

:29:31.:29:33.

ultimate Free Trade Deal and customs? Isn't that the case? You're

:29:34.:29:39.

right. It is incredibly difficult. The phasing of this doesn't require

:29:40.:29:42.

completion of an agreement or things to be completely resolved. It

:29:43.:29:48.

requires significant progress. I think I have some sympathy for David

:29:49.:29:53.

Davis on the issue of Northern Ireland. To expect it to be resolved

:29:54.:29:58.

within the next couple of months is just not realistic. What I'm seeing

:29:59.:30:04.

is a huge amount of political will, actually, from Europe and from the

:30:05.:30:07.

UK Government and from the Irish Government to find a solution. It is

:30:08.:30:11.

not going to be easy. It probably will not be rest #068ed until, as

:30:12.:30:16.

you say, we get a clearer idea of what the future relationship on

:30:17.:30:20.

trade is going to be. Let's talk about Labour's position regarding

:30:21.:30:23.

the single market and customs union. It is now the policy, having gone

:30:24.:30:31.

through various met fofsh Sis, you'll stay in the sing the market

:30:32.:30:35.

and the customs union through the transition period. Tom Watson says

:30:36.:30:41.

that could be a permanent state f and Keir Starmer said remaining in

:30:42.:30:46.

the customs union could parliament ninetyly be a viable option? Is that

:30:47.:30:53.

the case? That you are going to be the party of free movement and

:30:54.:30:57.

submission to the European Court of Justice? the European Court of

:30:58.:31:00.

Justice? Our position is very clear, but what it is not is always the

:31:01.:31:05.

most simple, I accept that, we would like to stay in a transitional

:31:06.:31:10.

arrangement, for around two years, is realistic, and that would involve

:31:11.:31:14.

us remaining part of the single market, and the customs union, but

:31:15.:31:19.

it is time-limited, and only as a transitional period. So Tom Watson

:31:20.:31:21.

was wrong to suggest it could be permanent? I don't think he said

:31:22.:31:27.

exactly that. He did, on Newsnight. I saw it on Newsnight, he was

:31:28.:31:31.

answering three questions in one breath will stop he said it could be

:31:32.:31:35.

a permanent state. It could be but that is not our policy. We need a

:31:36.:31:41.

customs relationship with Europe where we do not have friction at

:31:42.:31:45.

borders and customs and tariffs, everyone wants that, even David

:31:46.:31:49.

Davis says he wants that, that is not a particularly radical thing to

:31:50.:31:53.

say. In fact it might be the same, as what the government is suggesting

:31:54.:31:59.

looking at, a customs union. What we want is a transitional deal, we are

:32:00.:32:02.

clear about that. Without that, you have a cliff edge, some Tory

:32:03.:32:06.

backbenchers are relaxed about that but we are not, and neither is

:32:07.:32:12.

business. The government is hinting, David Davis this morning, in Brexit

:32:13.:32:16.

questions, he was hinting that he is softening on the argument. He was

:32:17.:32:19.

not too far away from saying he agreed with us on this will stop do

:32:20.:32:23.

you agree? We have been clear that we want an increment agent period,

:32:24.:32:29.

you need to have the full transition, interestingly... You

:32:30.:32:31.

will be coming out of the single market? You need a period in which

:32:32.:32:36.

you will implement the arrangement that we reach for afterwards. You

:32:37.:32:40.

cannot do that... We have been clear, if you stay in the customs

:32:41.:32:44.

union, the single market, you submit to free movement, the court of

:32:45.:32:48.

justice, the whole point about the referendum was voters decided they

:32:49.:32:51.

did not want to submit to those things. We have been clear that you

:32:52.:32:55.

cannot go from being in the European Union to the final position, and

:32:56.:33:00.

that final deal, overnight, you have got to ferment it over a period of

:33:01.:33:05.

time. The Prime Minister is clear. Government is shifting because it

:33:06.:33:08.

realises it has too, because it would be crippling for British

:33:09.:33:11.

industry to have anything other than an

:33:12.:33:11.

interim arrangement, and on freedom of movement, allow me to say this,

:33:12.:33:19.

the Labour Party fully accepts that freedom of movement is ending and we

:33:20.:33:24.

need a new immigration system. It will need to end after we leave the

:33:25.:33:29.

European Union, March, 2019, after the transitional period, clearly, if

:33:30.:33:33.

you leave the single market, you leave freedom of movement. That is a

:33:34.:33:40.

time limited interim state, because there has been a lack of progress.

:33:41.:33:43.

Thank you both, very much. The question for today is

:33:44.:33:50.

what did grime artist Stormzy call Theresa May at the

:33:51.:33:54.

GQ Men of the Year awards? A) peng, B) bossman,

:33:55.:33:58.

C) mandem or D) paigon? At the end of the show, Katharine

:33:59.:34:05.

will give us the correct answer. Our guest of the day today,

:34:06.:34:09.

Katharine Birbalsingh, when she made a now famous speech

:34:10.:34:11.

to the Conservative conference. She declared that the

:34:12.:34:15.

education system was broken But how radical have they been and

:34:16.:34:17.

what's next for schools in England? We'll hear Katharine's

:34:18.:34:22.

thoughts in a moment. First Emma Vardy has

:34:23.:34:28.

been back to the classroom. Over the past six years the

:34:29.:34:40.

coalition and Conservative governments have tried to change

:34:41.:34:44.

education, with the introduction of free schools and academies and as

:34:45.:34:47.

students here have found out, a brand-new exam system. Much of this

:34:48.:34:51.

initiated by the former Education Secretary Michael Gove, who had a

:34:52.:34:55.

radical vision for schools and wanted to put a renewed focus back

:34:56.:34:57.

on core traditional subjects. His flagship policy was the

:34:58.:35:09.

introduction of free schools, which can be set up by groups of parents

:35:10.:35:12.

or organisations like charities and businesses but which would be funded

:35:13.:35:17.

by central government. Existing schools were encouraged to convert

:35:18.:35:22.

to become academies, giving them greater control over their

:35:23.:35:26.

curriculum, budget and staffing. It is possible to deliver a knowledge

:35:27.:35:31.

rich curriculum, demanding, two students from backgrounds who years

:35:32.:35:34.

ago would have been written off, and do that while reducing the workload.

:35:35.:35:37.

That is an incredibly powerful message into the system, sensible

:35:38.:35:41.

schools of all types should be following that direction. As of

:35:42.:35:47.

2016, 61% of secondary schools have become academies. And 15% of

:35:48.:35:53.

primaries. Controversial plans to force all schools to convert to

:35:54.:35:57.

academy status were abandoned after a U-turn, and now, only failing

:35:58.:36:02.

schools will be required to convert by 2022. These reforms have not won

:36:03.:36:07.

the confidence of teaching unions. We were told academies and free

:36:08.:36:11.

schools would transform standards, the fact of the matter is, over half

:36:12.:36:18.

of academies, Academy trusts, at secondary level, are underperforming

:36:19.:36:23.

or seriously underperforming. So what has happened is government has

:36:24.:36:27.

left education to the market and the market has failed to provide. Talk

:36:28.:36:32.

to the person next to you, right down one or two ideas. Since the

:36:33.:36:37.

1980s, pupils receive their grades for GCSEs in letters, Hayes and bees

:36:38.:36:43.

and so on. But from this summer, GCSEs switched to a numerical system

:36:44.:36:48.

with nine being the highest grade. -- As and Bs and so on. We spent

:36:49.:36:53.

five years learning one method of learning, and then hearing we were

:36:54.:36:58.

doing a new system, that was really... It was a strange thing to

:36:59.:37:02.

get used to. I thought I would be aiming for and a star, now I am

:37:03.:37:06.

aiming for a nine... Probably better than I would normally aim, as there

:37:07.:37:14.

is something to aim for. -- A*. The exams were substantially more

:37:15.:37:16.

demanding, the abolition of controlled assessment, all students

:37:17.:37:21.

taking English and maths for all exams, that was a complex and

:37:22.:37:25.

difficult change but it was handled very well and students will have

:37:26.:37:29.

felt well supported through it. The new format has faced opposition from

:37:30.:37:35.

some teachers. The impact has been one of complete confusion for

:37:36.:37:40.

parents and employers, who have not understood the new grading system,

:37:41.:37:45.

and for students, it has meant exams which are very very difficult, and

:37:46.:37:54.

which have very low threshold marks. This year, plans for the creation of

:37:55.:37:57.

a new wave of grammar schools in England were abandoned, after the

:37:58.:38:01.

Conservatives lost their majority in the election. And the Queen 's

:38:02.:38:06.

speech did not announce any legislation for education. There is

:38:07.:38:10.

something of a blank page when it comes to wear schools reform can go

:38:11.:38:11.

next. STUDIO: In 2010, you told the

:38:12.:38:19.

Conservative Party conference that the system is broken, do you stand

:38:20.:38:25.

by those comments? Yes, the reforms are very much, the reforms that are

:38:26.:38:31.

taking place, things are improving, it is always good to be climbing up,

:38:32.:38:35.

and that is where we are going. Do you think the system is still open?

:38:36.:38:41.

I think we have work to do, things are improving all the time. Right,

:38:42.:38:45.

you set up your own free school, what was that like as an experience?

:38:46.:38:50.

It was not easy, took us three years to set it up, in Wembley park, and

:38:51.:38:57.

we have got years seven, eight, nine and ten and in 2019 we will have

:38:58.:39:03.

GCSEs, and it is really exciting. Thank goodness for the free school

:39:04.:39:06.

movement because we would not exist without it. It has allowed us to do

:39:07.:39:10.

things differently, we very much believe in knowledge and explicit

:39:11.:39:14.

instruction, teachers standing at the front and teaching. We have

:39:15.:39:19.

seven or eight teachers every day from around the country, from

:39:20.:39:23.

Glasgow, they come all the way to see us and take ideas away and take

:39:24.:39:26.

them back to their own schools. Are you the poster girl for these

:39:27.:39:35.

Goveite reforms but I don't like to consider myself a poster girl for

:39:36.:39:39.

anything, I am a head Mitch is, but I am a believer in the changes that

:39:40.:39:44.

have taken place. -- I am a headmistress. These were created in

:39:45.:39:46.

part of the country where it was not needed, where there was not a

:39:47.:39:50.

shortage of places, these free schools, that this was an

:39:51.:39:52.

opportunity to hit out against the educational establishment rather

:39:53.:39:57.

than bolstering and improving conditions and grades in existing

:39:58.:40:01.

schools. That has been levelled. Grades... That has happened, in

:40:02.:40:07.

existing schools? Yes, I mean... Competition is always a good thing,

:40:08.:40:11.

and innovation is always a good thing, what the free school movement

:40:12.:40:13.

has managed to do is allow innovation to happen, not just at

:40:14.:40:17.

Michaela Community School, we believe in knowledge, other free

:40:18.:40:24.

schools, like School 21, have different ideas, it has allowed

:40:25.:40:30.

diversity to come into the education established in. Not to the detriment

:40:31.:40:34.

of schools who say that they are losing good pupils to schools like

:40:35.:40:39.

yours. Why would that be the place. -- case. We have to compete with

:40:40.:40:44.

local schools, and while we are popular, there are other schools

:40:45.:40:47.

around us that are just as popular. Has that revolution stalled, since

:40:48.:40:52.

Michael Gove left the department? I think that if the case, he loved

:40:53.:40:57.

education. And I think that was his thing. Having said that, the

:40:58.:41:02.

Conservative Party have been backing those reforms and making them

:41:03.:41:07.

happen. Do you think there is quite the momentum that there was before?

:41:08.:41:11.

No. The government pledged ?500 million for 140 more free schools in

:41:12.:41:16.

the manifesto, that is looking less likely to happen. They need to boost

:41:17.:41:20.

other areas of the education budget, are you disappointed? No, I do

:41:21.:41:29.

not... I do not feel either way, as long as free schools are still

:41:30.:41:33.

around to happen, I think that is what is important, for the reasons I

:41:34.:41:35.

was saying about diversity and innovation. It allows us to find out

:41:36.:41:41.

what works. The point about these reforms, and exam reform and so one,

:41:42.:41:47.

is that... We need to find out what works and we need to be interested

:41:48.:41:51.

in finding that out. What do you say about the criticisms that some free

:41:52.:41:54.

schools have been self-selecting, they do not select by exam entry but

:41:55.:41:59.

self-selecting in the way they have their catchment area, or by the

:42:00.:42:03.

curriculum, because they have the freedom, to make Latin compulsory,

:42:04.:42:08.

for instance, or do mind high levels of music, do you think there is a

:42:09.:42:11.

strong element of self-selection, in other words, getting better

:42:12.:42:16.

performing students to come in in the first place. They cannot do

:42:17.:42:18.

that, they have to follow the admissions code like every other

:42:19.:42:23.

school. They have more freedom in how they set out catchment area and

:42:24.:42:26.

curriculum, you can be self-selecting. For instance, we at

:42:27.:42:30.

Michaela Community School have a lottery, people apply, then the

:42:31.:42:33.

council does the admissions, just like the council does the admissions

:42:34.:42:40.

of the local schools. We get a pretty standard crop of kids from

:42:41.:42:45.

the local area. I don't recognise what you are saying, certainly not

:42:46.:42:48.

with regard to Michaela Community School. What about criticism of

:42:49.:42:53.

occasions and changes to qualification and grading system,

:42:54.:42:55.

why change it again, what was old with the old A*-D? He says he would

:42:56.:43:07.

like to go for the very best, that young man, I admire him, children

:43:08.:43:11.

are being pushed to their potential. Which he is now, last year, for

:43:12.:43:24.

instance, 5.7% of children got A*s, the great creep has been taking

:43:25.:43:27.

place over years, it was important to do something. -- grade creep. And

:43:28.:43:34.

that has also enabled all subjects to matter, what I mean is before, we

:43:35.:43:41.

were looking at only five A-C, schools were under pressure to make

:43:42.:43:43.

sure they could deliver on English and maths, they may pull them out of

:43:44.:43:47.

other subjects and give them extra lessons. Aren't they the most

:43:48.:43:52.

important? Yes, but you do not want that to be to the detriment of your

:43:53.:43:55.

other subjects, where as when all the other different subjects are

:43:56.:44:00.

being counted, and this progress allows that to happen, it allows all

:44:01.:44:05.

subject to began to, it is complex, but it allows them to be counted,

:44:06.:44:11.

also not just the grade boundary of D-C, that was being looked at,

:44:12.:44:16.

schools will concentrate on that. Moving a 72 and eight minsters as

:44:17.:44:23.

much as moving a three and so, it changes, changes schools ways of

:44:24.:44:32.

doing things. -- moving a seven to an eight means test as much as

:44:33.:44:38.

moving a three to pay four. Every child counts, that is a good thing.

:44:39.:44:43.

What about vocational education, you focus on core academic subject, as

:44:44.:44:47.

we would call them, what about vocational education, shouldn't that

:44:48.:44:51.

be on the next? Say we do, we also give two hours a week of Michaela

:44:52.:44:55.

Community School and two hours a week of -- at Michaela Community

:44:56.:45:01.

School, we give two hours a week of music and two hours a week of art.

:45:02.:45:06.

My own opinion on vocational is that there is not enough especially after

:45:07.:45:12.

age 16, provision for that. There is 8000 apprenticeships across the

:45:13.:45:16.

country for construction, 8000...! That is it! Absolutely we push the

:45:17.:45:20.

university but there will be some pupils who want to do

:45:21.:45:23.

apprenticeships and go into other fields. I do wish the government

:45:24.:45:27.

would look at that and make more provision and put more funding into

:45:28.:45:31.

technical and vocational. We will stick with education.

:45:32.:45:35.

The government says English universities could be fined

:45:36.:45:37.

if their leaders are unable to justify salaries above that

:45:38.:45:39.

A new regulator is to be set up to determine whether university leaders

:45:40.:45:43.

The Universities Minister, Jo Johnson, was speaking

:45:44.:45:46.

I do not want to read about VC pay in the newspapers

:45:47.:45:54.

These headlines raise fears that student fees are not being used

:45:55.:46:01.

efficiently and that governance processes, including, but not

:46:02.:46:05.

limited to remuneration committees, are not working effectively.

:46:06.:46:10.

This is why I've repeatedly urged the sector, through guidance

:46:11.:46:13.

to HEFCE, to show restraint in levels of senior pay.

:46:14.:46:18.

We do need demonstrable action now to protect value for money

:46:19.:46:22.

for students and taxpayers in the future to ensure that

:46:23.:46:25.

vice-chancellor pay levels are seen as fair and justified.

:46:26.:46:29.

There's been criticism of what you said, as always when Government

:46:30.:46:42.

ministers stand up. People think you've taken too hard a line on

:46:43.:46:48.

this. If you look at the University of Oxford. The vice lance letter

:46:49.:46:54.

being paid ?350,000. Is it fair to say the vice-chancellor is being

:46:55.:46:58.

paid too much? We're not setting a pay cap. We are requiring

:46:59.:47:04.

institutions who want to pay over 150,000 provide the new regulator

:47:05.:47:07.

with evidence supporting the need to do so. It is really important in an

:47:08.:47:11.

environment in which students are paying for their own fees and

:47:12.:47:16.

taxpayers are injecting roughly 70% of the money into that suss Tim

:47:17.:47:20.

there's demonstrable efficiency across the higher education system.

:47:21.:47:25.

This is minimum requirements of accountability. Do you think

:47:26.:47:33.

?350,000 is too big a salary? It is a salary which needs to be

:47:34.:47:38.

justified. Oxford and Cambridge have come out as the top two universities

:47:39.:47:45.

in the world according to thetime survey and significant increases in

:47:46.:47:48.

their income, it is a major export. Why are you trying to kick them?

:47:49.:47:56.

We're requiring accountability and transparency for for taxpayers.

:47:57.:48:02.

Rhetoric is important. In this era, when you're looking at pay

:48:03.:48:05.

generally, you're saying these people don't deserve it? No, we're

:48:06.:48:11.

calling for restraint in the system. Pockets of our higher education

:48:12.:48:17.

system have generated negative publicity because of big increases

:48:18.:48:23.

in pay. It may not be typical across the system. We need to make sure

:48:24.:48:26.

remuneration committees are independent. So people have

:48:27.:48:29.

confidence in the way money's being used. When will we see results on

:48:30.:48:34.

this? It sounds like a consultation going to a regulator. If you wanted

:48:35.:48:42.

to reduce pay, do it? Universities are autonomous organisations. We

:48:43.:48:47.

passed a law bringing in the office for students which has power to

:48:48.:48:52.

ensure efficiency and proper use of resources. The office will be

:48:53.:48:57.

consulting shortly on guidance it will issue to the sector on getting

:48:58.:49:01.

accountability to rue mine ration committees. We need them to be

:49:02.:49:05.

independent so confidence grows in the system zblment in two years'

:49:06.:49:10.

time, nothing could change and these salaries stay the same, rightly or

:49:11.:49:16.

wrongly. We want the salaries to be justifiable. Transparency is a

:49:17.:49:23.

powerful towel. There is a perception committees are not

:49:24.:49:26.

operating transparently. This will change. It may be an important issue

:49:27.:49:33.

as far as you are concerned. In a way, isn't this the Government

:49:34.:49:37.

trying to deflect attention away from the real issues that became

:49:38.:49:41.

quite big talking points during the General Election, tuition fees and

:49:42.:49:46.

student loans. If there are changes to vice-chancellor's pay, it won't

:49:47.:49:49.

result in lower fees for anyone? It is really important everyone feels

:49:50.:49:53.

confident their investments whether it is the taxpayers or students'

:49:54.:49:57.

investments in higher education is worth while. The Government's

:49:58.:50:02.

committing 70% of the communities income to higher education. Why are

:50:03.:50:06.

fees going to go up because the rate of inflation's going up next year.

:50:07.:50:10.

Never mind about the pay going to vice-chancellors. . You've said

:50:11.:50:16.

that. What about fees? The return on higher education is enormous for

:50:17.:50:21.

students through it. Life time earnings ?250,000 higher. Higher

:50:22.:50:25.

education fees have to be set against the benefits they generate

:50:26.:50:29.

for the individual and society and the economy at large. Something has

:50:30.:50:35.

to finance higher education. We are sharing the burden between the

:50:36.:50:38.

individual studentant general taxpayer. 6.1% increase will be the

:50:39.:50:45.

interest rate on a student loan. That's extraordinarily high. Let's

:50:46.:50:49.

look at the interest rate. It is paid in the repayment period only by

:50:50.:50:55.

the highest earners. 2 and 5% of graduates. If think are earning over

:50:56.:51:01.

?42,000. That represents a cross-subsidy into the system for

:51:02.:51:06.

lower easterners. If you want to reduce the interest rate, you're

:51:07.:51:12.

removing a cross subsidy from those earning above ?42,000 to the lowest.

:51:13.:51:19.

Why is the interest rate set at RPI? That is the higher rate of inflation

:51:20.:51:23.

but everything you pay out as a Government is at CPI? This is an

:51:24.:51:28.

historical feature of the system. It doesn't make it write. How do you

:51:29.:51:33.

justify you're charging on student loans a higher rate of inflation

:51:34.:51:36.

than you, as Government ministers, pay out on? We keep the student

:51:37.:51:40.

finance system under review to make sure it is fair and effective. We'll

:51:41.:51:45.

continue to do so. Under review is meaningless. Every Government says

:51:46.:51:49.

everything is under review. Is it fair or isn't it? The overall

:51:50.:51:56.

student finance system is fair. It enables more students from

:51:57.:51:59.

disadvantaged background than ever before. You're 52% more likely to go

:52:00.:52:07.

to university to a highly selective institution. Not just low tariff

:52:08.:52:12.

institutions. It is even the most pretingious. According to the

:52:13.:52:17.

statistics, the gap between the most and least advantaged students has

:52:18.:52:24.

widened. There is a record level of people from disadvantaged going to

:52:25.:52:29.

university. The gap between the two hasn't narrowed. The participation

:52:30.:52:34.

rate, there are still more people going from advantaged backgrounds.

:52:35.:52:39.

There is work to do to continue to get more from disadvantaged

:52:40.:52:41.

backgrounds to university. Do you think the rates of interest on

:52:42.:52:45.

student loans is partly to blame? Have you to concede a 52% increase

:52:46.:52:55.

in disadvantaged areas is OK. What's your view about the rate of interest

:52:56.:53:00.

which is something that Conservative colleagues of Jo Johnson have

:53:01.:53:05.

raised? I suppose it has to be paid for. Sure, but this is the rate? The

:53:06.:53:10.

idea is the people who come out, because there are so few who will be

:53:11.:53:14.

able to pay back, you have to have higher rates. The thing is, what's

:53:15.:53:18.

really important is whether or not all of the courses that are being

:53:19.:53:23.

followed should be followed. When I was talking about apprenticeships

:53:24.:53:27.

and so on, perhaps some of the people doing these university

:53:28.:53:30.

courses should be on apprenticeships. We'd reduce the

:53:31.:53:35.

numbers at university. That is OK. It is OK for us to have vocational

:53:36.:53:41.

qualifications and for us to have technical colleges well funded. We

:53:42.:53:45.

want both. High quality technical routes. This is the whole purpose of

:53:46.:53:51.

the apprenticeship levy raising ?2.8 billion. It is the whole purpose of

:53:52.:53:58.

the skills reforms culminating in the introduction of T levels. We

:53:59.:54:02.

want great universities too. The economy of tomorrow will require

:54:03.:54:06.

high skilled graduates in bulk. Have you put more of a focus on

:54:07.:54:11.

encouraging more and more people to go to university than perhaps

:54:12.:54:16.

developing the apprentices and technical education at a fast enough

:54:17.:54:21.

rate? It is not a choice. We want world-class institutions. Oxford and

:54:22.:54:24.

Cambridge topped the global league tables. We also need brilliant

:54:25.:54:29.

technical and vocational routes. It is not an either or. Should foreign

:54:30.:54:34.

students be taken out of the immigration figures? This is a red

:54:35.:54:39.

herring. They are not capped. We welcome them in in Ltd numbers and

:54:40.:54:44.

can come and stay and work provided they get a graduate job. Should they

:54:45.:54:48.

be taken out of the immigration figures? We're the second most

:54:49.:54:55.

successful country attracting international students. Thank you.

:54:56.:54:57.

the beginning of the debate on the EU Withdrawal Bill.

:54:58.:55:01.

Lizzie Glinka is still on College Green for us.

:55:02.:55:07.

When I introduced the European Union Withdrawal Bill earlier this year, I

:55:08.:55:14.

said that was just the beginning of a process to ensure the decision

:55:15.:55:17.

made by the people in June is honoured. Today, we begin the next

:55:18.:55:22.

step in the historic process of honouring that decision. Put simply,

:55:23.:55:27.

this Bill is an essential step. It Des not take us out of the European

:55:28.:55:33.

Europe, that's a matter for the Article 50 process, it ensures on

:55:34.:55:37.

the day we leave businesses know where we stand. Workers' rights are

:55:38.:55:43.

upheld. Consumers are protected. This bill is to ensure as we leave,

:55:44.:55:50.

we do so in an orderly manner. David Davis flanked by Theresa May

:55:51.:55:51.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:55:52.:55:55.

The question was: What did grime artist Stormzy call Theresa May

:55:56.:55:57.

So, Katharine, what's the correct answer?

:55:58.:56:10.

Well, lets have a look now at Jeremy Corbyn presenting Stormzy

:56:11.:56:16.

with his Solo Artist of the Year award earlier this week.

:56:17.:56:18.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome our Solo Artist of the Year,

:56:19.:56:22.

It's so incredible to be here with everyone.

:56:23.:56:44.

I do want to use this to say Theresa May is a paigon

:56:45.:56:50.

and you know what we're doing right now.

:56:51.:56:52.

Yeah, it's awkward, innit, when I say that, innit, yeah, trust.

:56:53.:56:59.

We're joined now by Jasmine Dotiwala, a former MTV presenter

:57:00.:57:03.

and music columnist and now manager of the Media Trust.

:57:04.:57:05.

Welcome to the programme. Tell us what does baying an mean?

:57:06.:57:12.

Untrustworthy. Someone who's betrayed people. Thank you. Jeremy

:57:13.:57:17.

Corbyn is a grime fan, pub haar with grime artists. We saw that at the

:57:18.:57:22.

election with grime for Corbyn trending. Is it too early to talk

:57:23.:57:27.

about a grime vote? It's interesting with Jeremy Corbyn and the grime

:57:28.:57:31.

scene. Everyone thinks young people are voting for Labour and love

:57:32.:57:34.

Labour. It is Jeremy Corbyn they resonate with. Jeremy Corbyn's

:57:35.:57:37.

strong-willed, has a strength of character. That resonates with them.

:57:38.:57:43.

If you think about the way the grime music scene's been criticised and

:57:44.:57:47.

judged, it is similar to Jeremy Corbyn. They're criticised the way

:57:48.:57:52.

they dress, company they keep. Why do they relate to a bearded man of

:57:53.:57:56.

his age who's vegetarian, maybe about to become a vegan, from

:57:57.:58:01.

Islington. You say vegan. A lot of the grime scene are vegan and

:58:02.:58:07.

vegetarians. Lots of connection. Young people are inclusive. Young

:58:08.:58:11.

people tell us people like Jeremy Corbyn who are not about war and

:58:12.:58:16.

nuclear weapons and inclusivity represent who they are. This genre

:58:17.:58:19.

of music emerged in London. Is it still very much a London scene? No.

:58:20.:58:26.

National, each global. Grime music's taken over the word. Everything they

:58:27.:58:31.

stands for reflects their society and stories. The difference is at

:58:32.:58:35.

the moment politicians are looking at the grime scene but not acting as

:58:36.:58:39.

much. That's what they need to do. Thank you for coming in.

:58:40.:58:41.

Sadly for some, there's no This Week this evening.

:58:42.:58:49.

Andrew will be back for late night fun on a Thursday in a fortnight.

:58:50.:58:52.

Do join Anushka Asthana for Friday's Daily Politics.

:58:53.:58:54.

Immense congratulations to you. You are the final 12.

:58:55.:59:05.

But at the same time, you are now nothing.

:59:06.:59:06.

An elite group, including scientists,

:59:07.:59:10.

Jo Coburn with the latest news and debate from Westminster, including the EU Withdrawal Bill. Jo is also joined by the founder and headteacher of the Michaela School in London, Katharine Birbalsingh, to discuss university pay and school reform.