27/10/2017 Daily Politics


27/10/2017

John Pienaar is joined by the Times columnist Jenni Russell and Tim Stanley from the Telegraph. They discuss universal credit, the government's flagship welfare policy.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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North Korea has been blamed

for the cyber attacks that hit

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the NHS back in May,

but is there anything we can

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actually do about it?

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Pressure is continuing to mount

on the government to reduce

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the length of time people have

to wait before they receive

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universal credit payments.

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We'll discuss whether more changes

need to be done to improve

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the scheme with one

of its original architects.

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The European Parliament has been

debating what can be done

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to halt sexual harassment,

with many staff in Brussels saying

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they have been victims themselves.

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And the robots are coming,

but are we ready for them?

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We'll look at what needs

to be done to prepare us

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for the robotic revolution.

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All that coming up.

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Now I'd like to particularly welcome

rugby league fans who've just been

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watching England against Australia.

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You are smiling, guys, I can't think

what you are smiling about.

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I can assure you politics

is just as exciting,

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if a little dirtier,

and I've got two top pundits

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to analyse all the tactics

and the plays, Jenni Russell

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from the Times and the

Telgraph's Tim Stanley,

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welcome to the programme.

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First this morning, Home Office

Minister Ben Wallace has caused

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a stir by pointing the finger firmly

at North Korea for the cyber attack

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whch hit the NHS a few months ago.

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Here's what he had to say.

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Computer crime often leaves a trace

and we have capabilities

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in government to track that

and I can't go any further

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into our capabilities,

but there are strong signs it came

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from North Korea and ourselves

and I think the United States

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also believe that.

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Ben Wallace speaking just a short

while ago. If you stand back a step,

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you have to consider how worrying

and scary it is to see just how

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vulnerable we are to attacks like

this.

Yes, there is obviously

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something that really no hospital

has ever been prepared for and the

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trouble is that naturally the NHS

have an ability to withstand this

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kind of thing but the individual NHS

trusts with their individual

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computer systems, many of which

haven't been updated for some time

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because it is not a priority, should

I have more nurses and doctors in a

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Andy or should I get some cyber

security expert in for some vague

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threat far off in the future?

Understandably they didn't spend a

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lot of money on cyber security and

they haven't really got the budget

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for it.

It was health trust is

mainly, with thousands of

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appointments cancelled. It could

have been banks, businesses, any

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public service. The worry, Tim, has

always been, who knows where this is

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coming from? It could be a state, a

terrorist group, a spotty youth in

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an attic with a malign intent.

According to Ben Wallace, it's a

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rogue state who is a bit of a spotty

youth in an attic who have got it in

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for us.

In which case, what is this?

An overt act of terrorism is to muck

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it is hard to know how this will be

dealt with because we cannot go and

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arrest Kim Jong Un. We are dealing

with a rogue state who are already

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under a number of sanctions and

there are fewer and fewer levers we

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have against them.

Exactly, what do

we do? Do we counter attack with

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cyber warfare?

Is there like for

like, I don't know? Pressure is

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being put on to China by the UN and

somewhat unfairly, it is portrayed

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that Donald Trump is gearing up for

a fight with North Korea. North

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Korea started this fight and global

actions have to be taken. I suspect

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in the next few months that

sanctions will get tougher and China

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will press its partner to clean up

its act.

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The government is under pressure

from Labour and many Conservative

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MPs to make further changes

to its flagship welfare policy -

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universal credit.

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On Wednesday, the Prime Minister

announced a major U-turn on housing

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benefit, when she axed plans to cap

it for people in social housing.

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But those Tory critics

of universal credit want more

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concessions from ministers.

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Let's take a look...

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The aim of universal credit

is to roll six existing benefits,

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like housing benefit and tax

credits, into one simpler payment.

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It's paid in arrears,

like having a job, and the standard

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wait for the first

payment is six weeks.

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Now the government have already

made some changes...

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At the start of this month,

they issued new guidance to make it

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clearer that advance

payments are available.

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Ministers then said the helpline,

which could cost up to 55p

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per minute, would become

a freephone number.

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And this week, the prime minister

said that she was axing plans

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to cap housing benefit,

which includes the housing part

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of universal credit,

for social tenants.

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But for many Tory rebels those

changes are not enough.

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They want to see the standard six

week wait cut to just four weeks

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and they want to see changes

to the so-called "taper rate",

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which determines how much money

people can keep as they start moving

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back into work.

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It's yet to be seen

whether the government will make

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further concessions.

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With me now is Edward Boyd,

managing director of the Centre

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for Social Justice think tank

and a former adviser

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to the architect of universal

credit, Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the studio. Thank you for

coming in. Let's look at whether

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government is on this for now. They

are on the back foot, aren't they?

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Is it because it was a bad idea?

Because it's badly managed, badly

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funded or a combination of the

three?

I think you are right. They

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seem to be on the back foot and

there are broadly two reasons why.

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The first is communication from the

government's side on this. You can

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almost whisper it in Westminster but

if you look at the data on how this

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system compares to the last one, it

is not perfect, but all of the data

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shows it is better. People are more

likely to be in work, more likely to

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be earning money, and that methods

needs to put out more clearly.

There

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is a lot of pressure on the

government to ensure the payment

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starts sooner. For weeks, not be six

weeks as is the system at the

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moment. The idea with a job is that

you get paid at the end of the first

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period. Six weeks though leaves

people out of pocket, suffering a

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great deal, having to go to beat

banks and whatnot. -- food banks and

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whatnot. That has got to change,

hasn't it?

Yes, you are right. It is

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not just how long you wait for your

money but what you get paid.

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Whenever I get paid as a first

claimant, you get paid nothing, and

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you need to pay for your housing and

food from savings. That can push

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people into debt and actually making

sure people get paid from day one

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instead of day seven is the big

change we are likely to see the

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government made and I think they

should make.

In the coming budget it

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is pretty sure as eggs is eggs that

the announcement will be made by the

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Chancellor and the government has

made life tough for itself by

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holding out.

We very much hope that

they will be that and I think the

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budget is very much the place to

look for that. We will look at

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whether they get rid of the waiting

dates but also whether they get rid

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of the taper rate, the amount of

money people can keep when they go

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into work and earn more money. They

get to keep 37p of money they add an

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extra pound he went on the Universal

Credit. That is not enough to

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encourage people to go into work, is

it? Do you think they will allow

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people to keep more money before

they go into work? I really hope

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they will move on this because if

you invest in Universal Credit, you

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invest in those struggling most on

the breadline who have not seen pay

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rises for a number of years. I

deeply encourage them to do this

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because that is the kind of thing

that shows the government is working

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for the whole country.

Jenni

Russell, you are not impressed with

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how the government has handled this?

No, I wrote an article a few weeks

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ago that this would be the

government's poll-tax unless they

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did something about it. George

Osborne introduced the seven-day

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waiting period in which people are

entitled to no money, he is the

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person that you could receive after

work. He thought, welfare is an easy

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target, people don't care about it.

When you look at Croydon, one of the

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target -- trial areas, housing

benefit deficit went up to 40% from

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10% after Universal Credit. People

are being driven into a position

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where they cannot pay their bills.

It is not enough to just reduced

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waiting to a month. Two fifths of

people in this country get paid

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weekly or monthly -- or fortnightly.

People who are accustomed to

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budgeting weekly or fortnightly

cannot be suddenly pushed to

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monthly. It has to be an option that

people can be paid fortnightly if

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they want to and, crucially, that if

they choose their housing benefit

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payments can go directly to their

landlords which is how it worked

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under the old system. What is

happening now is people are being

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paid very late, they can't afford

the loan, money comes in as a large

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lump sum and understandably they use

the money for rent for living,

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falling to further arrears and they

get evicted. So many changes need to

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be made by the government including

on day one that if they need an

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advance payment, they can get one,

because up until now it has been

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very clear that you can have one.

Lots of people don't know about it

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and lots of people never learn about

it.

Jenni is absolutely right. It

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was in some ways undermined by the

Treasury. They saw welfare reform as

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a way of saving money. Some of the

stuff that has gone wrong with it is

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stuff that wouldn't have happened if

the government had the -- Sibley

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spoken to benefit claimants, those

affected. It's appalling that people

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were used for using -- were charged

for using a helpline. It is

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inconceivable that someone called a

helpline because they have no money

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and get charged for it. It makes me

a little ashamed to be British. That

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is confusing strong leadership with

pig-headedness and I hope the

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government changes their mind on

this.

Are you feeling the government

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will dig itself at least part of the

way out of this whole, Ed?

I think

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we will see improvements but what we

have to remember is, you look at the

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old system, the new system is not

perfect, no system will be, but this

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is an improvement, the data is

showing that. This has to be about

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changing lives, it has to be about

reversing some of those reductions

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that came in as other guests have

said in order to ensure it always

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pays to be in work and they have got

a great opportunity to make sure

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that's the case in the next budget.

Thank you very much for joining us

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this morning.

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Make no mistake the robots

are coming, it's how we prepare

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for them that's the issue.

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It could be a huge opportunity,

the government estimates that

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by 2035 artificial intelligence

could add around 630 billion

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pounds to the UK economy.

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The challenge however

is that experts predict

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hundreds of thousands of us

could find our jobs disappearing

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as the robots take over.

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This technological revolution

is the subject of a new study

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by the think-tank Future Advocacy

which looks at which parts

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of the country are likely to be hit

first and hardest by the rise

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of the machines.

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Elizabeth Glinka reports.

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The robots are coming.

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Or as experts in this exhibition

at the Manchester Museum of Science

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and Industry will tell you,

they have been here for a while.

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Robots have been around for hundreds

of years and have a hand in almost

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every activity that we do

and that is only going to continue

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on into the future.

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They are like any other technology.

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Should you be afraid of smartphones?

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Should you be afraid of cars?

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Should you be afraid

of anything that has

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changed our lives significantly?

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The answer is no.

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You need to embrace

that change and look

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at the opportunities

that it presents.

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But with opportunity comes

a very real human cost.

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Not to be too apocalyptic about it

but it is estimated that

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by the early 2030s,

between 20 and 40% of the jobs

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which are currently done by us

will be done by them.

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Ollie Bastin whose research breaks

down the potential job losses

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by constituency says

we're massively underprepared.

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It's an extraordinary

level of change.

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We're talking about the equivalent

of the jobs that were lost

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in the mining industry over decades

happening over a much shorter time

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frame and we know that story

didn't end well at all.

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There were terrible consequences

for individuals, for families,

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for communities, and so we have got

to do much better this time.

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And the sorts of jobs

which are most likely to be

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replaced might surprise you.

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It's not just drivers

and data inputers.

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We're also talking about welders,

legal secretaries, butchers

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and even manicurists.

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Home to Heathrow airport,

it's the Shadow Chancellor

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John McDonald's seat,

Hayes and Harlington,

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that researchers think

will be hardest hit.

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But across the country, it's

the former industrial heartlands,

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places which have already weathered

the decline in heavy industry,

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which will fare worse.

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The former coalfields

of North Warwickshire

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are in the top five.

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I think initially it did come

as a bit of a surprise

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but when you look at the types

of businesses we have

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in the constituency,

things like manufacturing,

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warehousing, storage,

then you can see these are the types

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of businesses that are most likely

to be impacted by automotive agent.

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-- automisation.

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It's important that government

and local authorities

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play their part in making sure that

it's not as destructive

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as it may be.

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An all-party group on artificial

intelligence was set up in January

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this year and AI is at least

mentioned in the

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government's industrial

strategy but the changes

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are happening fast.

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It's a huge economic opportunity

for our country but there are real

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risks and one of the risks is that

that incredible wealth isn't

0:15:080:15:10

going to be shared very fairly

and particularly that some people

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are going to lose out when it comes

to unemployment and their jobs.

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We have a duty to protect them

and help them and make sure

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that everyone benefits.

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The latest polling shows

that our views on artificial

0:15:220:15:24

intelligence differ widely depending

on what it's being asked to do.

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But with the prospect

of hundreds of thousands of job

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losses just 15 years away,

it's an issue our politicians

0:15:300:15:32

are going to have to get a grip on.

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Fascinating report, in a scary kind

of way!

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Joining me from Newcastle

is the shadow minister

0:15:490:15:52

for science and innovation,

Chi Onwurah.

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Do you think that we should be

excited or scared to death?

We

0:15:550:16:00

should be excited, and we should

also recognise that this is a

0:16:000:16:04

decision point, a choice, it is not

that we should be afraid, but we

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need to make changes, we have

choices to be made, so, this report

0:16:090:16:14

says that over half of humans

working activities can be automated,

0:16:140:16:21

can be robot aside, but only 5% of

actual jobs might disappear, because

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that is the difference, only one,

very few jobs go entire leak, if we

0:16:250:16:34

can bring new skills and abilities

to them. And there is the

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possibility, in particular areas,

which are low skill, that there

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would be huge transformation and

loss of jobs. -- roboticised. If

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government gets a grip now, and

looks at investing in skills and

0:16:490:16:53

regulating these new opportunities,

so that we have a greater range of

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wealth distribution as a consequence

of it and using the opportunities to

0:16:590:17:06

new jobs being created, people make

work for people. The industrial

0:17:060:17:11

Revolution created many more jobs

than it is destroyed but it took

0:17:110:17:15

decades for the benefits to be

shared. We need to take the positive

0:17:150:17:20

decisions now, investing in skills

and job opportunities, to make sure

0:17:200:17:25

that those opportunities are shared.

What is politics rising to the

0:17:250:17:29

challenge, you are describing an

enormous challenge. Basically, 5% of

0:17:290:17:34

jobs would be at risk of

disappearing.

Many more beyond that

0:17:340:17:40

could be transformed, do you think

that policymakers across the

0:17:400:17:44

political divide realise the scale

of what is coming?

Tech often scares

0:17:440:17:51

people, right now, the government is

August on Brexit, and backstabbing,

0:17:510:17:55

if I might say so, so I don't think

the challenges and opportunities are

0:17:550:18:01

understood. As a matter of urgency,

if we in invest in skills, right

0:18:010:18:12

now, in this country, above the age

of 24, free education is over, you

0:18:120:18:16

cannot re-skill yourself unless you

take out huge loans, if you are

0:18:160:18:21

eligible, or your company invests in

you. We need to offer retraining,

0:18:210:18:25

reskilling. Robots can be

reprogrammed at zero cost, humans,

0:18:250:18:32

does not require too much, but we

are so much more versatile than

0:18:320:18:36

robots. There are still many things,

not just talking about writing bad

0:18:360:18:41

poetry(!) or betting, there are many

things that robots cannot do...

0:18:410:18:47

Writing a column for The Times

newspaper, for instance. LAUGHTER

0:18:470:18:51

We need to have more jobs that have

the skills that humans are unique

0:18:510:18:57

at, more jobs with those things,

that is what people value, and the

0:18:570:19:02

robots can do the work we do not

value. I like to talk about existing

0:19:020:19:09

intelligence, and assisting

intelligence, robots helping people

0:19:090:19:11

to be more productive and helping

the economy to prosper, because that

0:19:110:19:15

is the opportunity, if we get it

right. But it is true that these

0:19:150:19:18

decisions have been taken out,

invest in skills, national education

0:19:180:19:25

service, lifelong learning, and

giving people more empowerment, so

0:19:250:19:28

they are more productive, and the

robots do the boring work.

Wouldn't

0:19:280:19:31

that be lovely. Chi

0:19:310:19:34

robots do the boring work.

Wouldn't

that be lovely. Chi, thank you for

0:19:340:19:38

joining us.

0:19:380:19:44

Now it's time for our regular look

at what's been going on in European

0:19:440:19:47

politics, and for the next half hour

we'll be examining how our future

0:19:470:19:51

trading relationship

with the EU might look,

0:19:510:19:52

sexual harassment allegations

in the European Parliament,

0:19:520:19:54

and plans for tighter

European border controls.

0:19:540:19:57

First though here's our 60 second

round up

0:19:570:20:02

of all the top stories from Brussels

and Strasbourg this week.

0:20:020:20:08

Actually, I think we have lost the

report, so instead, let's talk about

0:20:080:20:12

Europe, much going on in Europe in

many different ways, we have

0:20:120:20:15

mentioned the headlines, and in a

short while we will be talking about

0:20:150:20:20

Catalonia, the big headline, I

think, this morning. Sexual

0:20:200:20:24

harassment, that was up at the

European Parliament, that is being

0:20:240:20:27

discussed here at Westminster, I

think that is going to develop over

0:20:270:20:31

the weekend, it has a feel of a

story, it is building. And

0:20:310:20:35

Catalonia, what do you make of where

we are going with that? The Spanish

0:20:350:20:40

leader, now calling on the Senate,

to get on and get ready to deal with

0:20:400:20:45

Catalonia, by taking away their

effective autonomy. This one will

0:20:450:20:49

build and build and get rougher and

rougher.

You always think that

0:20:490:20:54

leaders today are not going to

insist upon replicating the mistakes

0:20:540:20:57

made in the past, but it is

completely free is that you have a

0:20:570:21:03

weak Spain unable to retreat from

his position that they cannot

0:21:030:21:09

secede, and I Catalonia leader who,

reading between the lines, would

0:21:090:21:12

like not to have been forced into

glaring independence at this point,

0:21:120:21:17

and yet he has pressures within

Catalonia to push him to take a hard

0:21:170:21:21

line, they are two trains heading

towards one another, they are going

0:21:210:21:24

to smash, it is insane. Catalonia

declares independence, nobody will

0:21:240:21:30

recognise it. Companies are fleeing,

Spanish will create enormous hatred

0:21:300:21:35

if they dissolve parliament and take

over some powers. We think, you have

0:21:350:21:39

got to talk, what on earth are you

doing... I will punch you, if you

0:21:390:21:44

punch me, I am harder than you

are(!)

already had the potential to

0:21:440:21:49

be a bitter confrontation, the

violence that we saw surrounding the

0:21:490:21:51

unlawful referendum.

It will get

worse. That set a black backdrop.

0:21:510:21:58

This is a clash of two different

kinds of nationalism, the

0:21:580:22:02

nationalism of an emerging state,

Catalonia, which wants to be free,

0:22:020:22:05

but the nationalism of Spain, which

says, if you go, we cannot survive.

0:22:050:22:11

You are the richest region within

this country. All of this is taking

0:22:110:22:15

part in the context of a

constitution which sides with the

0:22:150:22:19

Spanish, but if you test it too far,

push it too far, it will prompt the

0:22:190:22:24

central government into doing

something so terrible that it means

0:22:240:22:26

anybody who it is done to, they have

a moral right to walk away. You see

0:22:260:22:32

two kinds of nationalism content

here. The EU does not know what to

0:22:320:22:35

do.

My heart bleeds for it. The EU

has kept clear of it, it's instinct

0:22:350:22:41

is not to get involved in an

internal dispute.

Sometimes you

0:22:410:22:44

think that the EU would like the

Europe to be a Europe of regions,

0:22:440:22:49

conspiratorially trying to divide up

Britain, hats have a separate Spain,

0:22:490:22:53

a separate Northern Ireland. But as

Jean-Claude Juncker said recently, a

0:22:530:22:57

Europe of regions would be far

harder to govern, it is in the best

0:22:570:23:01

interests of the EU to have a strong

Spain. The EU normally supports

0:23:010:23:06

emerging nations right to exist,

regional identity, that is what it

0:23:060:23:09

is about, but it is backing Madrid.

We will be following the storage in

0:23:090:23:15

the day, but we have to move on with

that for the moment, but we will get

0:23:150:23:20

successive news bulletins, rolling

news through the day, this is a

0:23:200:23:22

breaking story.

0:23:220:23:24

The key point about talks on trade

between Britain and the EU

0:23:260:23:29

is they're not happening,

at least not yet.

0:23:290:23:31

And they won't start until Britain

comes up with a more generous

0:23:310:23:34

EU divorce settlement.

0:23:340:23:35

The EU side has started to talk

among themselves about trade

0:23:350:23:38

with Britain, though.

0:23:380:23:39

And they're also looking down under

to forge closer ties

0:23:390:23:41

with Australia and New Zealand.

0:23:410:23:42

EU Commission President

Jean Claude Juncker has said an EU

0:23:420:23:45

trade deal with New Zealand

and Australia will be in place

0:23:450:23:47

by the end of his term in 2019.

0:23:470:23:52

And this week, the EU side said

talks are ready to move

0:23:520:23:54

onto the next stage.

0:23:540:23:56

The UK won't be able to open

talks with Australia or New Zealand

0:23:560:23:59

until it leaves the EU in March 2019

but Theresa May remains optimistic

0:23:590:24:02

about reaching a deal

0:24:020:24:03

because these counties are part

of the Commonwealth,

0:24:030:24:05

and have historic ties to Britain.

0:24:050:24:11

The final EU trade deal with

Australia and New Zealand

0:24:110:24:16

will be carefully scrutinised

by UK representatives

0:24:160:24:21

because it could be viewed

as a "litmus test" for the type

0:24:210:24:24

of deal the EU could

eventually sign with Britain.

0:24:240:24:26

But, such comparisons

are perhaps unwise,

0:24:260:24:28

as Theresa May has always maintained

she is looking for a "bespoke" trade

0:24:280:24:31

deal and not an off-the-shelf model.

0:24:310:24:32

With me now is the Conservative MEP

and International Trade Spokesman,

0:24:320:24:35

David Campbell Bannerman.

0:24:350:24:41

Morning to you, thank you for coming

in. A bit of context about the

0:24:410:24:45

importance of all of this,

Australia, in the league table of

0:24:450:24:48

countries which are an important

trading partner, somewhere below

0:24:480:24:53

20th.

It is about 19th, it depends

upon how you measure it, New Zealand

0:24:530:24:59

is slightly smaller. These are

important markets, we should have

0:24:590:25:03

done these traits deals weight

before this. Yesterday, we had a

0:25:030:25:07

vote in the European Parliament, we

agreed negotiating guidelines of the

0:25:070:25:13

Council, the negotiation will be the

next stage. I am off to New Zealand

0:25:130:25:17

tonight, long flight, we are moving

ahead. As we rightly say, the New

0:25:170:25:21

Zealand deal, 80% of it is based on

Canada, the Ceta deal, relevant to

0:25:210:25:29

the "Brexit" talks.

Canada has done

its deal, seven years to get that

0:25:290:25:33

done. Not necessarily giving

encouragement to those that say they

0:25:330:25:37

can do the deal in the blink of an

eye, but the Canada deal does

0:25:370:25:40

nothing for trading services is the

yellow very little.

Very little...

0:25:400:25:49

The British economy depends upon

services. They are not necessarily

0:25:490:25:59

the pot of gold at the end of the

"Brexit" rainbow.

Tariffs are

0:25:590:26:03

important, New Zealand lamb is

subject to quotas, we import a lot,

0:26:030:26:07

after quota comes to Britain, these

things are relevant, we sell a lot

0:26:070:26:13

of Land Rovers and mechanical goods

to New Zealand and Australia. It is

0:26:130:26:17

worth getting rid of the tariffs,

and that is key, they are still

0:26:170:26:22

operating under World Trade

Organisation rules, heavy tariffs in

0:26:220:26:25

certain areas, so that is worth

having. Services has to be a big

0:26:250:26:30

bolt on. It is important to New

Zealand as well, not just

0:26:300:26:35

agriculture, a lot of it is

services, that is very relevant to

0:26:350:26:38

the UK. And the City of London. That

is all doable, and I think the super

0:26:380:26:43

Canada deal, taking the Ceta deal by

bolting on a lot more in services.

0:26:430:26:49

Mentioning lamb, you are an East of

England MEP, a lot of farmers on

0:26:490:26:54

your patch. How do they feel about

the idea of agricultural produce,

0:26:540:26:59

including lamb, flooding into the

market.

British lamb producers have

0:26:590:27:09

shown concern about the New Zealand

deal in particular.

One minister

0:27:090:27:16

said it would be the end of farming

in Wales.

It depends upon what the

0:27:160:27:20

Regina is going to be post "Brexit",

we signed up to the same regime, the

0:27:200:27:24

same single farm payments, and I

think we can look after our farmers,

0:27:240:27:29

but open up the markets. The quotas

are pretty restrictive New Zealand

0:27:290:27:34

lamb, for example, and I think...

What about the consumer, we have to

0:27:340:27:40

look after the British consumer, we

can drive down food prices by being

0:27:400:27:44

outside the customs union.

You are a

great Brexiteer, you believe

0:27:440:27:49

passionately in your calls, there is

a fair chance you will either have

0:27:490:27:52

to deal with angry farmers, I don't

know if they will be burning tyres

0:27:520:27:56

on the M25 not, and you may be

dealing with consumers looking at

0:27:560:28:02

prices in the supermarket is up. --

M20.

Look at the whole area, driving

0:28:020:28:08

up quality in the shops, in the

supermarkets, opening up markets for

0:28:080:28:11

our farmers as well as New Zealand

and Australian farmers. I don't

0:28:110:28:16

think it is a zero sum game and we

should not look at it like that.

You

0:28:160:28:21

mean, you can up set everyone at the

same time(!) LAUGHTER

0:28:210:28:28

The EU is very resistant to certain

things, French producers already are

0:28:280:28:32

saying they will exclude sensitive

products from Australia and New

0:28:320:28:38

Zealand in that trade deal but the

British trades deal which followed

0:28:380:28:41

Brexit may not do so. We will look

after farmers, absolutely.

When you

0:28:410:28:46

listen to the debate that has been

going on this week on the subject of

0:28:460:28:49

trade policy, European Union,

getting to "Brexit" Day, March 2019,

0:28:490:28:54

with a trade deal done and dusted,

everything else done and dusted, not

0:28:540:28:58

just in March 2019 but months before

that, how much are you convinced by

0:28:580:29:03

it?

This is like being asked to clap

your hands if you believe in

0:29:030:29:07

fairies, I cannot cut my hands, we

know perfectly well that we are not

0:29:070:29:11

going to get any kind of trade deal.

She does believe in fairies.

0:29:110:29:17

1-dayers...

Good!

LAUGHTER

The relatively simple Canada deal

0:29:170:29:21

should have taken seven years, it is

still not resolved, we cannot get

0:29:210:29:25

these details traits deals, they

will not happen, even if they were

0:29:250:29:29

to happen they would not be to our

advantage. At the moment, research

0:29:290:29:33

has shown that we will lose one

quarter of the value of our trade

0:29:330:29:36

and services, and one fifth of our

trade in goods with the European

0:29:360:29:40

Union if we leave, if we make

fantastic trade deals with the ten

0:29:400:29:44

other biggest economies in the world

including the US and India, we will

0:29:440:29:48

make up one tenth of the value of

what we are going to lose. The other

0:29:480:29:52

point is, that will take years. At

the moment we are entirely ignoring

0:29:520:29:57

the other thing, whether we stick to

EU regulations, at the moment, the

0:29:570:30:02

Canada deal has nothing to say to

that, if we try to export irons to

0:30:020:30:07

France in the future, and we are not

sticking to EU regulations on Irons,

0:30:070:30:13

the French. Goods the border and

search them, that is why customs

0:30:130:30:17

will not be able to keep up with the

demands.

0:30:170:30:19

Tim, can you explain to Jenni why

she is wrong, why there are visiting

0:30:240:30:28

about...

I am open-minded. I think

Brexit has been spoken about in this

0:30:280:30:39

way too much, people punishing each

other, Britain has done a silly

0:30:390:30:42

thing and they will get punished for

it. But business does not work like

0:30:420:30:46

that. Business people and voters

want trade because trade in riches

0:30:460:30:51

everyone. That is what the next age

will be. Once we leave the EU, what

0:30:510:30:56

is exciting is we will be able to

make money with other people and one

0:30:560:30:59

of the great things we have working

to our advantage of EU regulatory

0:30:590:31:03

compliance. We have exactly the same

regulations as the EU so whenever

0:31:030:31:07

the EU does something -- does a deal

with someone, we only have to come

0:31:070:31:13

up behind ago, are next.

Yes, but if

they change, we would have to change

0:31:130:31:19

with them or lose the market.

We

would be in charge of our own

0:31:190:31:24

regulations. When it is outside of

the EU, it has exactly that

0:31:240:31:30

flexibility to adapt to markets.

I

would just say that Canada only took

0:31:300:31:34

three years to negotiate and we

don't have 16,500 goods tariffs, we

0:31:340:31:39

have no quotas, and all our years

are going to be taken in, hence the

0:31:390:31:48

repeal bill.

And what we are going

to do on leaving the EU is diverged

0:31:480:31:52

on everything and the minute we

diverged on a single regulation,

0:31:520:31:57

they are going to have to check the

import of everything in practice in

0:31:570:32:02

case we are not sticking to their

regulations.

It is all agreeable.

0:32:020:32:08

No, it isn't. You can't have it both

ways.

80% of our trade is within the

0:32:080:32:14

UK. 20% is international and 90% of

that growth will come from outside

0:32:140:32:19

of Europe.

Not on the latest

figures.

David, your confidence is

0:32:190:32:24

infectious.

Let's come back in two

years to see.

0:32:240:32:36

As we heard earlier,

the most powerful debate

0:32:360:32:38

in the European Parliament this week

was about sexual harassment

0:32:380:32:41

and whether the European Union

should do more to combat it.

0:32:410:32:43

However during the discussion

the focus also shifted

0:32:430:32:45

onto the Parliament itself with many

stories emerging of staff being

0:32:450:32:48

the victims of harassment and abuse.

0:32:480:32:49

Here's what EU Commissioner Cecilia

Malmstrom had to say

0:32:490:32:52

when she opened the debate.

0:32:520:32:53

Women that have been

in some form or another

0:32:530:32:55

harassed by their boss,

by their colleague,

0:32:550:32:57

by their teacher, their neighbour

or a stranger on the street.

0:32:570:33:00

These stories shout to us.

0:33:000:33:02

It's a feminist outcry

from all across the world

0:33:020:33:06

from women who said enough.

0:33:060:33:09

This is enough.

0:33:090:33:10

We refuse to be silent,

we refuse to accept.

0:33:100:33:12

We have set aside 6 million euros

last year and 12.7 for this year,

0:33:120:33:18

million, and projects across the EU

have been a lifeline for many

0:33:180:33:21

organisations who otherwise

would not be able to do their work.

0:33:210:33:31

Joining me now is the Labour MEP

Neena Gill who's been

0:33:310:33:33

following the debate closely.

0:33:330:33:36

Hello. Just give us a bit of

background. We know the problem.

0:33:360:33:43

What can the European Union do about

it?

Well, firstly we have to put our

0:33:430:33:49

own house in order and that's what

we've been trying to do. I mean,

0:33:490:33:52

clearly we need to make sure that

there is a safe place for victims to

0:33:520:33:56

be able to come through and raise

these issues but beyond that we are

0:33:560:34:01

looking at having a committee where

MEPs, who like many people in this

0:34:010:34:06

situation have disproportionate

power against very many, let's say

0:34:060:34:13

young women, because it is

disproportionately women who are

0:34:130:34:16

affected, so what we are doing is

asking the bureau of the parliament

0:34:160:34:20

to make sure they take action.

We

will talk about the European

0:34:200:34:29

Parliament in a second, Neena, but

as an institution, the union,

0:34:290:34:33

Brussels, what can they do about

this across Europe?

I think we need

0:34:330:34:38

to make sure that it is actually,

you know, it is already illegal but

0:34:380:34:43

that all the member states are

implementing the laws properly, that

0:34:430:34:46

there is a legal let's say

punishment or procedure in countries

0:34:460:34:53

in member states.

Is that not up to

member states?

Yes, but the EU can

0:34:530:34:59

pass regulation to that effect and

we need to also propose that there

0:34:590:35:06

is a new regulation about violence

against women. So, you know, there

0:35:060:35:11

is something the EU can do. The UN

is talking about it. It is not just

0:35:110:35:17

a problem facing Europe, it is a

global problem and the UN, the

0:35:170:35:22

European Union and other regional

bodies that we are working with, we

0:35:220:35:25

could make it unacceptable, that it

is not OK. A bit like we have made

0:35:250:35:30

smoking in this country, it is not

acceptable to trivialise sexual

0:35:300:35:34

harassment.

Smoking and sexual

harassment are a little different,

0:35:340:35:38

but we take your point. You mention

Parliament itself and what seems to

0:35:380:35:42

have been going on, what is said to

have been going on that by way of

0:35:420:35:47

women not being safe inside the

Parliament of the European Union.

0:35:470:35:50

What sort of examples are we talking

about here?

Well, we have the

0:35:500:35:56

majority of people in power still

are men both in terms of the

0:35:560:36:01

officials and parliamentarians. You

have very many young women who come

0:36:010:36:04

to work in Parliament or come for

work experience and of course you

0:36:040:36:12

have this imbalance of power and

often somehow there is a feeling a

0:36:120:36:17

bit like in the film industry and in

politics here as well that it's OK,

0:36:170:36:23

young women are expected to do more

than the job they are there to do.

0:36:230:36:29

Someone was saying there is a

culture of silence around the

0:36:290:36:32

Parliament, people felt unable to

raise concerns they had all tell

0:36:320:36:36

stories of what they had been

through.

Exactly. This is the same

0:36:360:36:41

scenario elsewhere. Whether you are

in Westminster, a big corporation,

0:36:410:36:45

you know that your job is at risk

and that is the problem. That is the

0:36:450:36:51

reason there is silence, because

most people are too afraid and they

0:36:510:36:55

don't know the mechanisms. Now, two

years ago Parliament did set up a

0:36:550:37:00

body to say, we know some of this

harassment exist and we want to set

0:37:000:37:05

up an organisation where the

assistance can go to but really it's

0:37:050:37:08

not that well-known and it hasn't

operated as well as it should have

0:37:080:37:12

been. But now with a Brussels-based

paper sort of setting up a

0:37:120:37:16

confidential forum, more people have

come out and more women have come

0:37:160:37:22

out and made these allegations and I

think it's totally unacceptable.

0:37:220:37:25

Jenni, what do you think? Is there a

role for politics at a European

0:37:250:37:30

level to make a difference here?

I

think the problem is that as

0:37:300:37:35

somebody who's lived through 30

years of all of this as everything a

0:37:350:37:39

woman I know has done, the sheer

practicality of it. I know a young

0:37:390:37:43

woman at a moment working in an

organisation with absolutely

0:37:430:37:46

fabulous liberal policies. Her

married male bosses are not

0:37:460:37:51

answering her professional queries

during the day but hitting on her

0:37:510:37:55

every single night with text

messages telling her how much they

0:37:550:37:59

want to go to bed with her, what

they'd like to do in bed with her.

0:37:590:38:03

What is she to do in that situation?

If she reports them, they are not

0:38:030:38:07

going to lose their jobs but they

are going to hate her and she will

0:38:070:38:12

get a reputation as a troublemaker

and her career in the industry where

0:38:120:38:15

she is just starting out may well

never go anywhere because other

0:38:150:38:20

employees particular -- other

employers particularly men would

0:38:200:38:25

think, I don't want her in my

office. It's down to the power

0:38:250:38:29

imbalance. It doesn't matter how

many confidential lines you have, if

0:38:290:38:33

that woman reports babies, they know

who has reported it.

We have to move

0:38:330:38:40

on. Thank you. -- if that woman

reports the abuse.

0:38:400:38:46

Who's coming in and who's going out?

0:38:460:38:47

This week MEPs voted to introduce

new entry and exit checks for people

0:38:470:38:50

visiting the borderless Schengen

area from outside of Europe.

0:38:500:38:53

It's designed to plug a gap

in the EU's border security,

0:38:530:38:55

while Europol will use

the new database to identify

0:38:550:38:58

terrorists and track

criminal suspects.

0:38:580:38:59

Adam Fleming reports

from Strasbourg.

0:38:590:39:00

Comings and goings

at the parliament.

0:39:000:39:01

This is all about entry and exit

to the EU by nationals

0:39:010:39:04

from non-EU countries.

0:39:040:39:06

In the analogue era,

all you needed was a passport

0:39:060:39:10

with a visa and some stamps in it.

0:39:100:39:16

Under the digital entry

and exit system, there

0:39:160:39:18

will be a joint database

0:39:180:39:19

of biometric information

which will tell border guards that

0:39:190:39:22

somebody has stayed in the EU

for longer than the 90 days

0:39:220:39:25

that they are allowed.

0:39:250:39:27

It is essential that we effectively

manage, protect and secure

0:39:270:39:31

our external borders, that we have

full knowledge of who comes in.

0:39:310:39:38

It is in this spirit that we have

proposed the entry exit system.

0:39:380:39:43

It's designed to help stop

terrorists, like the perpetrator

0:39:440:39:48

of the Berlin attack last Christmas.

0:39:480:39:57

He travelled using 15

different identities.

0:39:570:39:58

But some MEPs have been torn

between security and human rights.

0:39:580:40:01

It is a balance compromise.

0:40:010:40:02

In the first place,

I was against these smart borders

0:40:020:40:05

but the latest developments show us

Europeans are concerned

0:40:050:40:07

and security is a problem.

0:40:070:40:09

We have to strengthen our borders.

0:40:090:40:14

But on the other hand,

it has to go hand-in-hand

0:40:140:40:16

with fundamental rights.

0:40:160:40:19

The time that personal data would be

held has been a big deal.

0:40:190:40:22

It has been reduced during

the passage of the legislation

0:40:220:40:25

but it is still too long for some.

0:40:250:40:27

My main concern is that

here there is a huge

0:40:270:40:29

collection of travellers' data

from all travellers coming

0:40:290:40:32

to the European Union

and going outside and retention

0:40:320:40:37

for up to three years of this data,

no matter if that person

0:40:370:40:40

is suspicious or risky.

0:40:400:40:43

And that is something which I think

is disproportionate.

0:40:430:40:47

We need to focus on those persons

who are risky and suspicious

0:40:470:40:50

and collect more data on those

rather than having a general

0:40:500:40:54

suspicion towards all travellers.

0:40:540:41:00

And trust Ukip's Gerard Batten

to find a Brexit angle.

0:41:000:41:03

He's even written a book about it.

0:41:030:41:08

We will be affected

after we leave the European Union

0:41:080:41:10

because we will be a third country,

so our biometric data will be shared

0:41:100:41:14

with all of the countries

of the European Union.

0:41:140:41:17

It's not unreasonable for European

countries to want a system.

0:41:170:41:19

The USA have a system,

the UK has the system,

0:41:190:41:22

they need their own system.

0:41:220:41:25

My concern is that we are sharing

information across the board

0:41:250:41:27

with the EU and this will be

shared with countries

0:41:270:41:30

that we cannot trust,

they are deeply corrupted,

0:41:300:41:32

institutionally corrupted.

0:41:320:41:33

Another country that

comes up is Canada.

0:41:330:41:37

Yes, I know it's not in the EU

but it has signed a deal

0:41:370:41:41

with the EU to share

0:41:410:41:42

airline passenger data,

a deal that's been held

0:41:420:41:44

up because of a ruling

by the European Court of Justice.

0:41:440:41:46

Some MEPs think the same thing

could happen with this legislation.

0:41:460:41:49

If it did, that might mean the entry

exit legislation isn't ready

0:41:490:41:52

to go in 2020 as planned.

0:41:520:41:59

Adam Fleming with that report. Tim

Stanley, we are back again right in

0:41:590:42:03

the middle of the argument of the

balance between security and

0:42:030:42:06

privacy. Has that balance shifted?

It is perfectly reasonable for the

0:42:060:42:11

EU to say it wants to better monitor

who is coming in and out. After all,

0:42:110:42:16

the context of this is that huge

march of refugees across the

0:42:160:42:21

continent, the context of national

countries having to set up borders

0:42:210:42:25

again within Schengen, which they

don't want to do, and the context is

0:42:250:42:30

terrorism. So it's perfectly

reasonable they should police their

0:42:300:42:33

borders. Gerard Batten is right. I

would say it's perfectly reasonable

0:42:330:42:38

for the UK to say hey, we don't want

you holding alloy that is in state

0:42:380:42:43

for three years. So what was once an

internal UK -- EU discussion is now

0:42:430:42:49

a discussion between the EU and a

nation state. Let the UK make a case

0:42:490:42:57

for its citizens privacy.

We heard

in the report that the very real

0:42:570:43:00

concern about data being held but

when you look at the threat across

0:43:000:43:06

the world including countries in

Europe, can we simply not be too

0:43:060:43:09

squeamish about this stuff now?

I

think you have to keep wondering

0:43:090:43:12

about what powers governments have

because none of us want to end up in

0:43:120:43:18

a situation where some right-wing

government or some very left-wing

0:43:180:43:22

government then starts misusing data

in a way that we don't anticipate,

0:43:220:43:26

so I think it's very important that

we keep worrying about what they do.

0:43:260:43:30

Tim is absolutely right. The world's

preoccupations have shifted. We

0:43:300:43:34

don't know, for example, who other

members of Isis or Al-Qaeda among

0:43:340:43:40

the million refugees who came into

Europe last year and is absolutely

0:43:400:43:44

right and citizens would demand that

the EU should be intelligent about

0:43:440:43:48

the state.

There's also an element

of hypocrisy that on the one hand

0:43:480:43:52

the UK once open -- the EU wants

open borders...

It's a trade-off,

0:43:520:43:59

isn't it? That is all for now.

0:43:590:44:04

Thanks to all my guest

and particularly Tim

0:44:040:44:06

and Jenni for joining me throughout

the programme, goodbye.

0:44:060:44:10

Ooh, yes.

0:44:140:44:15

John Pienaar is joined by the Times columnist Jenni Russell and Tim Stanley from the Telegraph. They discuss the latest on the government's flagship welfare policy universal credit, which has been debated in Parliament once again.

Plus, as the Brexit negotiations continue, a look at what is happening in the European Parliament in Politics Europe.


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