27/10/2017 Daily Politics


27/10/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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North Korea has been blamed

for the cyber attacks that hit

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the NHS back in May,

but is there anything we can

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actually do about it?

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Pressure is continuing to mount

on the government to reduce

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the length of time people have

to wait before they receive

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universal credit payments.

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We'll discuss whether more changes

need to be done to improve

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the scheme with one

of its original architects.

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The European Parliament has been

debating what can be done

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to halt sexual harassment,

with many staff in Brussels saying

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they have been victims themselves.

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And the robots are coming,

but are we ready for them?

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We'll look at what needs

to be done to prepare us

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for the robotic revolution.

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All that coming up.

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Now I'd like to particularly welcome

rugby league fans who've just been

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watching England against Australia.

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You are smiling, guys, I can't think

what you are smiling about.

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I can assure you politics

is just as exciting,

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if a little dirtier,

and I've got two top pundits

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to analyse all the tactics

and the plays, Jenni Russell

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from the Times and the

Telgraph's Tim Stanley,

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welcome to the programme.

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First this morning, Home Office

Minister Ben Wallace has caused

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a stir by pointing the finger firmly

at North Korea for the cyber attack

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whch hit the NHS a few months ago.

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Here's what he had to say.

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Computer crime often leaves a trace

and we have capabilities

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in government to track that

and I can't go any further

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into our capabilities,

but there are strong signs it came

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from North Korea and ourselves

and I think the United States

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also believe that.

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Ben Wallace speaking just a short

while ago. If you stand back a step,

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you have to consider how worrying

and scary it is to see just how

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vulnerable we are to attacks like

this.

Yes, there is obviously

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something that really no hospital

has ever been prepared for and the

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trouble is that naturally the NHS

have an ability to withstand this

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kind of thing but the individual NHS

trusts with their individual

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computer systems, many of which

haven't been updated for some time

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because it is not a priority, should

I have more nurses and doctors in a

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Andy or should I get some cyber

security expert in for some vague

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threat far off in the future?

Understandably they didn't spend a

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lot of money on cyber security and

they haven't really got the budget

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for it.

It was health trust is

mainly, with thousands of

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appointments cancelled. It could

have been banks, businesses, any

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public service. The worry, Tim, has

always been, who knows where this is

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coming from? It could be a state, a

terrorist group, a spotty youth in

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an attic with a malign intent.

According to Ben Wallace, it's a

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rogue state who is a bit of a spotty

youth in an attic who have got it in

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for us.

In which case, what is this?

An overt act of terrorism is to muck

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it is hard to know how this will be

dealt with because we cannot go and

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arrest Kim Jong Un. We are dealing

with a rogue state who are already

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under a number of sanctions and

there are fewer and fewer levers we

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have against them.

Exactly, what do

we do? Do we counter attack with

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cyber warfare?

Is there like for

like, I don't know? Pressure is

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being put on to China by the UN and

somewhat unfairly, it is portrayed

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that Donald Trump is gearing up for

a fight with North Korea. North

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Korea started this fight and global

actions have to be taken. I suspect

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in the next few months that

sanctions will get tougher and China

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will press its partner to clean up

its act.

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The government is under pressure

from Labour and many Conservative

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MPs to make further changes

to its flagship welfare policy -

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universal credit.

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On Wednesday, the Prime Minister

announced a major U-turn on housing

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benefit, when she axed plans to cap

it for people in social housing.

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But those Tory critics

of universal credit want more

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concessions from ministers.

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Let's take a look...

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The aim of universal credit

is to roll six existing benefits,

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like housing benefit and tax

credits, into one simpler payment.

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It's paid in arrears,

like having a job, and the standard

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wait for the first

payment is six weeks.

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Now the government have already

made some changes...

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At the start of this month,

they issued new guidance to make it

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clearer that advance

payments are available.

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Ministers then said the helpline,

which could cost up to 55p

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per minute, would become

a freephone number.

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And this week, the prime minister

said that she was axing plans

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to cap housing benefit,

which includes the housing part

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of universal credit,

for social tenants.

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But for many Tory rebels those

changes are not enough.

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They want to see the standard six

week wait cut to just four weeks

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and they want to see changes

to the so-called "taper rate",

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which determines how much money

people can keep as they start moving

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back into work.

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It's yet to be seen

whether the government will make

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further concessions.

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With me now is Edward Boyd,

managing director of the Centre

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for Social Justice think tank

and a former adviser

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to the architect of universal

credit, Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the studio. Thank you for

coming in. Let's look at whether

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government is on this for now. They

are on the back foot, aren't they?

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Is it because it was a bad idea?

Because it's badly managed, badly

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funded or a combination of the

three?

I think you are right. They

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seem to be on the back foot and

there are broadly two reasons why.

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The first is communication from the

government's side on this. You can

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almost whisper it in Westminster but

if you look at the data on how this

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system compares to the last one, it

is not perfect, but all of the data

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shows it is better. People are more

likely to be in work, more likely to

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be earning money, and that methods

needs to put out more clearly.

There

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is a lot of pressure on the

government to ensure the payment

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starts sooner. For weeks, not be six

weeks as is the system at the

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moment. The idea with a job is that

you get paid at the end of the first

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period. Six weeks though leaves

people out of pocket, suffering a

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great deal, having to go to beat

banks and whatnot. -- food banks and

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whatnot. That has got to change,

hasn't it?

Yes, you are right. It is

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not just how long you wait for your

money but what you get paid.

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Whenever I get paid as a first

claimant, you get paid nothing, and

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you need to pay for your housing and

food from savings. That can push

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people into debt and actually making

sure people get paid from day one

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instead of day seven is the big

change we are likely to see the

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government made and I think they

should make.

In the coming budget it

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is pretty sure as eggs is eggs that

the announcement will be made by the

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Chancellor and the government has

made life tough for itself by

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holding out.

We very much hope that

they will be that and I think the

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budget is very much the place to

look for that. We will look at

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whether they get rid of the waiting

dates but also whether they get rid

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of the taper rate, the amount of

money people can keep when they go

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into work and earn more money. They

get to keep 37p of money they add an

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extra pound he went on the Universal

Credit. That is not enough to

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encourage people to go into work, is

it? Do you think they will allow

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people to keep more money before

they go into work? I really hope

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they will move on this because if

you invest in Universal Credit, you

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invest in those struggling most on

the breadline who have not seen pay

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rises for a number of years. I

deeply encourage them to do this

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because that is the kind of thing

that shows the government is working

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for the whole country.

Jenni

Russell, you are not impressed with

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how the government has handled this?

No, I wrote an article a few weeks

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ago that this would be the

government's poll-tax unless they

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did something about it. George

Osborne introduced the seven-day

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waiting period in which people are

entitled to no money, he is the

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person that you could receive after

work. He thought, welfare is an easy

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target, people don't care about it.

When you look at Croydon, one of the

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target -- trial areas, housing

benefit deficit went up to 40% from

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10% after Universal Credit. People

are being driven into a position

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where they cannot pay their bills.

It is not enough to just reduced

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waiting to a month. Two fifths of

people in this country get paid

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weekly or monthly -- or fortnightly.

People who are accustomed to

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budgeting weekly or fortnightly

cannot be suddenly pushed to

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monthly. It has to be an option that

people can be paid fortnightly if

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they want to and, crucially, that if

they choose their housing benefit

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payments can go directly to their

landlords which is how it worked

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under the old system. What is

happening now is people are being

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paid very late, they can't afford

the loan, money comes in as a large

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lump sum and understandably they use

the money for rent for living,

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falling to further arrears and they

get evicted. So many changes need to

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be made by the government including

on day one that if they need an

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advance payment, they can get one,

because up until now it has been

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very clear that you can have one.

Lots of people don't know about it

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and lots of people never learn about

it.

Jenni is absolutely right. It

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was in some ways undermined by the

Treasury. They saw welfare reform as

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a way of saving money. Some of the

stuff that has gone wrong with it is

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stuff that wouldn't have happened if

the government had the -- Sibley

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spoken to benefit claimants, those

affected. It's appalling that people

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were used for using -- were charged

for using a helpline. It is

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inconceivable that someone called a

helpline because they have no money

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and get charged for it. It makes me

a little ashamed to be British. That

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is confusing strong leadership with

pig-headedness and I hope the

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government changes their mind on

this.

Are you feeling the government

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will dig itself at least part of the

way out of this whole, Ed?

I think

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we will see improvements but what we

have to remember is, you look at the

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old system, the new system is not

perfect, no system will be, but this

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is an improvement, the data is

showing that. This has to be about

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changing lives, it has to be about

reversing some of those reductions

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that came in as other guests have

said in order to ensure it always

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pays to be in work and they have got

a great opportunity to make sure

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that's the case in the next budget.

Thank you very much for joining us

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this morning.

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Make no mistake the robots

are coming, it's how we prepare

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for them that's the issue.

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It could be a huge opportunity,

the government estimates that

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by 2035 artificial intelligence

could add around 630 billion

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pounds to the UK economy.

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The challenge however

is that experts predict

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hundreds of thousands of us

could find our jobs disappearing

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as the robots take over.

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This technological revolution

is the subject of a new study

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by the think-tank Future Advocacy

which looks at which parts

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of the country are likely to be hit

first and hardest by the rise

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of the machines.

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Elizabeth Glinka reports.

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The robots are coming.

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Or as experts in this exhibition

at the Manchester Museum of Science

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and Industry will tell you,

they have been here for a while.

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Robots have been around for hundreds

of years and have a hand in almost

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every activity that we do

and that is only going to continue

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on into the future.

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They are like any other technology.

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Should you be afraid of smartphones?

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Should you be afraid of cars?

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Should you be afraid

of anything that has

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changed our lives significantly?

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The answer is no.

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You need to embrace

that change and look

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at the opportunities

that it presents.

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But with opportunity comes

a very real human cost.

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Not to be too apocalyptic about it

but it is estimated that

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by the early 2030s,

between 20 and 40% of the jobs

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which are currently done by us

will be done by them.

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Ollie Bastin whose research breaks

down the potential job losses

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by constituency says

we're massively underprepared.

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It's an extraordinary

level of change.

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We're talking about the equivalent

of the jobs that were lost

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in the mining industry over decades

happening over a much shorter time

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frame and we know that story

didn't end well at all.

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There were terrible consequences

for individuals, for families,

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for communities, and so we have got

to do much better this time.

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And the sorts of jobs

which are most likely to be

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replaced might surprise you.

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It's not just drivers

and data inputers.

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We're also talking about welders,

legal secretaries, butchers

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and even manicurists.

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Home to Heathrow airport,

it's the Shadow Chancellor

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John McDonald's seat,

Hayes and Harlington,

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that researchers think

will be hardest hit.

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But across the country, it's

the former industrial heartlands,

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places which have already weathered

the decline in heavy industry,

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which will fare worse.

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The former coalfields

of North Warwickshire

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are in the top five.

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I think initially it did come

as a bit of a surprise

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but when you look at the types

of businesses we have

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in the constituency,

things like manufacturing,

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warehousing, storage,

then you can see these are the types

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of businesses that are most likely

to be impacted by automotive agent.

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-- automisation.

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It's important that government

and local authorities

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play their part in making sure that

it's not as destructive

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as it may be.

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An all-party group on artificial

intelligence was set up in January

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this year and AI is at least

mentioned in the

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government's industrial

strategy but the changes

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are happening fast.

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It's a huge economic opportunity

for our country but there are real

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risks and one of the risks is that

that incredible wealth isn't

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going to be shared very fairly

and particularly that some people

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are going to lose out when it comes

to unemployment and their jobs.

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We have a duty to protect them

and help them and make sure

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that everyone benefits.

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The latest polling shows

that our views on artificial

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intelligence differ widely depending

on what it's being asked to do.

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But with the prospect

of hundreds of thousands of job

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losses just 15 years away,

it's an issue our politicians

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are going to have to get a grip on.

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Fascinating report, in a scary kind

of way!

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Joining me from Newcastle

is the shadow minister

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for science and innovation,

Chi Onwurah.

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Do you think that we should be

excited or scared to death?

We

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should be excited, and we should

also recognise that this is a

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decision point, a choice, it is not

that we should be afraid, but we

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need to make changes, we have

choices to be made, so, this report

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says that over half of humans

working activities can be automated,

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can be robot aside, but only 5% of

actual jobs might disappear, because

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that is the difference, only one,

very few jobs go entire leak, if we

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can bring new skills and abilities

to them. And there is the

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possibility, in particular areas,

which are low skill, that there

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would be huge transformation and

loss of jobs. -- roboticised. If

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government gets a grip now, and

looks at investing in skills and

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regulating these new opportunities,

so that we have a greater range of

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wealth distribution as a consequence

of it and using the opportunities to

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new jobs being created, people make

work for people. The industrial

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Revolution created many more jobs

than it is destroyed but it took

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decades for the benefits to be

shared. We need to take the positive

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decisions now, investing in skills

and job opportunities, to make sure

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that those opportunities are shared.

What is politics rising to the

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challenge, you are describing an

enormous challenge. Basically, 5% of

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jobs would be at risk of

disappearing.

Many more beyond that

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could be transformed, do you think

that policymakers across the

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political divide realise the scale

of what is coming?

Tech often scares

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people, right now, the government is

August on Brexit, and backstabbing,

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if I might say so, so I don't think

the challenges and opportunities are

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understood. As a matter of urgency,

if we in invest in skills, right

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now, in this country, above the age

of 24, free education is over, you

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cannot re-skill yourself unless you

take out huge loans, if you are

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eligible, or your company invests in

you. We need to offer retraining,

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reskilling. Robots can be

reprogrammed at zero cost, humans,

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does not require too much, but we

are so much more versatile than

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robots. There are still many things,

not just talking about writing bad

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poetry(!) or betting, there are many

things that robots cannot do...

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Writing a column for The Times

newspaper, for instance. LAUGHTER

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We need to have more jobs that have

the skills that humans are unique

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at, more jobs with those things,

that is what people value, and the

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robots can do the work we do not

value. I like to talk about existing

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intelligence, and assisting

intelligence, robots helping people

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to be more productive and helping

the economy to prosper, because that

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is the opportunity, if we get it

right. But it is true that these

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decisions have been taken out,

invest in skills, national education

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service, lifelong learning, and

giving people more empowerment, so

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they are more productive, and the

robots do the boring work.

Wouldn't

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that be lovely. Chi

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robots do the boring work.

Wouldn't

that be lovely. Chi, thank you for

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joining us.

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Now it's time for our regular look

at what's been going on in European

0:19:440:19:47

politics, and for the next half hour

we'll be examining how our future

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trading relationship

with the EU might look,

0:19:510:19:52

sexual harassment allegations

in the European Parliament,

0:19:520:19:54

and plans for tighter

European border controls.

0:19:540:19:57

First though here's our 60 second

round up

0:19:570:20:02

of all the top stories from Brussels

and Strasbourg this week.

0:20:020:20:08

Actually, I think we have lost the

report, so instead, let's talk about

0:20:080:20:12

Europe, much going on in Europe in

many different ways, we have

0:20:120:20:15

mentioned the headlines, and in a

short while we will be talking about

0:20:150:20:20

Catalonia, the big headline, I

think, this morning. Sexual

0:20:200:20:24

harassment, that was up at the

European Parliament, that is being

0:20:240:20:27

discussed here at Westminster, I

think that is going to develop over

0:20:270:20:31

the weekend, it has a feel of a

story, it is building. And

0:20:310:20:35

Catalonia, what do you make of where

we are going with that? The Spanish

0:20:350:20:40

leader, now calling on the Senate,

to get on and get ready to deal with

0:20:400:20:45

Catalonia, by taking away their

effective autonomy. This one will

0:20:450:20:49

build and build and get rougher and

rougher.

You always think that

0:20:490:20:54

leaders today are not going to

insist upon replicating the mistakes

0:20:540:20:57

made in the past, but it is

completely free is that you have a

0:20:570:21:03

weak Spain unable to retreat from

his position that they cannot

0:21:030:21:09

secede, and I Catalonia leader who,

reading between the lines, would

0:21:090:21:12

like not to have been forced into

glaring independence at this point,

0:21:120:21:17

and yet he has pressures within

Catalonia to push him to take a hard

0:21:170:21:21

line, they are two trains heading

towards one another, they are going

0:21:210:21:24

to smash, it is insane. Catalonia

declares independence, nobody will

0:21:240:21:30

recognise it. Companies are fleeing,

Spanish will create enormous hatred

0:21:300:21:35

if they dissolve parliament and take

over some powers. We think, you have

0:21:350:21:39

got to talk, what on earth are you

doing... I will punch you, if you

0:21:390:21:44

punch me, I am harder than you

are(!)

already had the potential to

0:21:440:21:49

be a bitter confrontation, the

violence that we saw surrounding the

0:21:490:21:51

unlawful referendum.

It will get

worse. That set a black backdrop.

0:21:510:21:58

This is a clash of two different

kinds of nationalism, the

0:21:580:22:02

nationalism of an emerging state,

Catalonia, which wants to be free,

0:22:020:22:05

but the nationalism of Spain, which

says, if you go, we cannot survive.

0:22:050:22:11

You are the richest region within

this country. All of this is taking

0:22:110:22:15

part in the context of a

constitution which sides with the

0:22:150:22:19

Spanish, but if you test it too far,

push it too far, it will prompt the

0:22:190:22:24

central government into doing

something so terrible that it means

0:22:240:22:26

anybody who it is done to, they have

a moral right to walk away. You see

0:22:260:22:32

two kinds of nationalism content

here. The EU does not know what to

0:22:320:22:35

do.

My heart bleeds for it. The EU

has kept clear of it, it's instinct

0:22:350:22:41

is not to get involved in an

internal dispute.

Sometimes you

0:22:410:22:44

think that the EU would like the

Europe to be a Europe of regions,

0:22:440:22:49

conspiratorially trying to divide up

Britain, hats have a separate Spain,

0:22:490:22:53

a separate Northern Ireland. But as

Jean-Claude Juncker said recently, a

0:22:530:22:57

Europe of regions would be far

harder to govern, it is in the best

0:22:570:23:01

interests of the EU to have a strong

Spain. The EU normally supports

0:23:010:23:06

emerging nations right to exist,

regional identity, that is what it

0:23:060:23:09

is about, but it is backing Madrid.

We will be following the storage in

0:23:090:23:15

the day, but we have to move on with

that for the moment, but we will get

0:23:150:23:20

successive news bulletins, rolling

news through the day, this is a

0:23:200:23:22

breaking story.

0:23:220:23:24

The key point about talks on trade

between Britain and the EU

0:23:260:23:29

is they're not happening,

at least not yet.

0:23:290:23:31

And they won't start until Britain

comes up with a more generous

0:23:310:23:34

EU divorce settlement.

0:23:340:23:35

The EU side has started to talk

among themselves about trade

0:23:350:23:38

with Britain, though.

0:23:380:23:39

And they're also looking down under

to forge closer ties

0:23:390:23:41

with Australia and New Zealand.

0:23:410:23:42

EU Commission President

Jean Claude Juncker has said an EU

0:23:420:23:45

trade deal with New Zealand

and Australia will be in place

0:23:450:23:47

by the end of his term in 2019.

0:23:470:23:52

And this week, the EU side said

talks are ready to move

0:23:520:23:54

onto the next stage.

0:23:540:23:56

The UK won't be able to open

talks with Australia or New Zealand

0:23:560:23:59

until it leaves the EU in March 2019

but Theresa May remains optimistic

0:23:590:24:02

about reaching a deal

0:24:020:24:03

because these counties are part

of the Commonwealth,

0:24:030:24:05

and have historic ties to Britain.

0:24:050:24:11

The final EU trade deal with

Australia and New Zealand

0:24:110:24:16

will be carefully scrutinised

by UK representatives

0:24:160:24:21

because it could be viewed

as a "litmus test" for the type

0:24:210:24:24

of deal the EU could

eventually sign with Britain.

0:24:240:24:26

But, such comparisons

are perhaps unwise,

0:24:260:24:28

as Theresa May has always maintained

she is looking for a "bespoke" trade

0:24:280:24:31

deal and not an off-the-shelf model.

0:24:310:24:32

With me now is the Conservative MEP

and International Trade Spokesman,

0:24:320:24:35

David Campbell Bannerman.

0:24:350:24:41

Morning to you, thank you for coming

in. A bit of context about the

0:24:410:24:45

importance of all of this,

Australia, in the league table of

0:24:450:24:48

countries which are an important

trading partner, somewhere below

0:24:480:24:53

20th.

It is about 19th, it depends

upon how you measure it, New Zealand

0:24:530:24:59

is slightly smaller. These are

important markets, we should have

0:24:590:25:03

done these traits deals weight

before this. Yesterday, we had a

0:25:030:25:07

vote in the European Parliament, we

agreed negotiating guidelines of the

0:25:070:25:13

Council, the negotiation will be the

next stage. I am off to New Zealand

0:25:130:25:17

tonight, long flight, we are moving

ahead. As we rightly say, the New

0:25:170:25:21

Zealand deal, 80% of it is based on

Canada, the Ceta deal, relevant to

0:25:210:25:29

the "Brexit" talks.

Canada has done

its deal, seven years to get that

0:25:290:25:33

done. Not necessarily giving

encouragement to those that say they

0:25:330:25:37

can do the deal in the blink of an

eye, but the Canada deal does

0:25:370:25:40

nothing for trading services is the

yellow very little.

Very little...

0:25:400:25:49

The British economy depends upon

services. They are not necessarily

0:25:490:25:59

the pot of gold at the end of the

"Brexit" rainbow.

Tariffs are

0:25:590:26:03

important, New Zealand lamb is

subject to quotas, we import a lot,

0:26:030:26:07

after quota comes to Britain, these

things are relevant, we sell a lot

0:26:070:26:13

of Land Rovers and mechanical goods

to New Zealand and Australia. It is

0:26:130:26:17

worth getting rid of the tariffs,

and that is key, they are still

0:26:170:26:22

operating under World Trade

Organisation rules, heavy tariffs in

0:26:220:26:25

certain areas, so that is worth

having. Services has to be a big

0:26:250:26:30

bolt on. It is important to New

Zealand as well, not just

0:26:300:26:35

agriculture, a lot of it is

services, that is very relevant to

0:26:350:26:38

the UK. And the City of London. That

is all doable, and I think the super

0:26:380:26:43

Canada deal, taking the Ceta deal by

bolting on a lot more in services.

0:26:430:26:49

Mentioning lamb, you are an East of

England MEP, a lot of farmers on

0:26:490:26:54

your patch. How do they feel about

the idea of agricultural produce,

0:26:540:26:59

including lamb, flooding into the

market.

British lamb producers have

0:26:590:27:09

shown concern about the New Zealand

deal in particular.

One minister

0:27:090:27:16

said it would be the end of farming

in Wales.

It depends upon what the

0:27:160:27:20

Regina is going to be post "Brexit",

we signed up to the same regime, the

0:27:200:27:24

same single farm payments, and I

think we can look after our farmers,

0:27:240:27:29

but open up the markets. The quotas

are pretty restrictive New Zealand

0:27:290:27:34

lamb, for example, and I think...

What about the consumer, we have to

0:27:340:27:40

look after the British consumer, we

can drive down food prices by being

0:27:400:27:44

outside the customs union.

You are a

great Brexiteer, you believe

0:27:440:27:49

passionately in your calls, there is

a fair chance you will either have

0:27:490:27:52

to deal with angry farmers, I don't

know if they will be burning tyres

0:27:520:27:56

on the M25 not, and you may be

dealing with consumers looking at

0:27:560:28:02

prices in the supermarket is up. --

M20.

Look at the whole area, driving

0:28:020:28:08

up quality in the shops, in the

supermarkets, opening up markets for

0:28:080:28:11

our farmers as well as New Zealand

and Australian farmers. I don't

0:28:110:28:16

think it is a zero sum game and we

should not look at it like that.

You

0:28:160:28:21

mean, you can up set everyone at the

same time(!) LAUGHTER

0:28:210:28:28

The EU is very resistant to certain

things, French producers already are

0:28:280:28:32

saying they will exclude sensitive

products from Australia and New

0:28:320:28:38

Zealand in that trade deal but the

British trades deal which followed

0:28:380:28:41

Brexit may not do so. We will look

after farmers, absolutely.

When you

0:28:410:28:46

listen to the debate that has been

going on this week on the subject of

0:28:460:28:49

trade policy, European Union,

getting to "Brexit" Day, March 2019,

0:28:490:28:54

with a trade deal done and dusted,

everything else done and dusted, not

0:28:540:28:58

just in March 2019 but months before

that, how much are you convinced by

0:28:580:29:03

it?

This is like being asked to clap

your hands if you believe in

0:29:030:29:07

fairies, I cannot cut my hands, we

know perfectly well that we are not

0:29:070:29:11

going to get any kind of trade deal.

She does believe in fairies.

0:29:110:29:17

1-dayers...

Good!

LAUGHTER

The relatively simple Canada deal

0:29:170:29:21

should have taken seven years, it is

still not resolved, we cannot get

0:29:210:29:25

these details traits deals, they

will not happen, even if they were

0:29:250:29:29

to happen they would not be to our

advantage. At the moment, research

0:29:290:29:33

has shown that we will lose one

quarter of the value of our trade

0:29:330:29:36

and services, and one fifth of our

trade in goods with the European

0:29:360:29:40

Union if we leave, if we make

fantastic trade deals with the ten

0:29:400:29:44

other biggest economies in the world

including the US and India, we will

0:29:440:29:48

make up one tenth of the value of

what we are going to lose. The other

0:29:480:29:52

point is, that will take years. At

the moment we are entirely ignoring

0:29:520:29:57

the other thing, whether we stick to

EU regulations, at the moment, the

0:29:570:30:02

Canada deal has nothing to say to

that, if we try to export irons to

0:30:020:30:07

France in the future, and we are not

sticking to EU regulations on Irons,

0:30:070:30:13

the French. Goods the border and

search them, that is why customs

0:30:130:30:17

will not be able to keep up with the

demands.

0:30:170:30:19

Tim, can you explain to Jenni why

she is wrong, why there are visiting

0:30:240:30:28

about...

I am open-minded. I think

Brexit has been spoken about in this

0:30:280:30:39

way too much, people punishing each

other, Britain has done a silly

0:30:390:30:42

thing and they will get punished for

it. But business does not work like

0:30:420:30:46

that. Business people and voters

want trade because trade in riches

0:30:460:30:51

everyone. That is what the next age

will be. Once we leave the EU, what

0:30:510:30:56

is exciting is we will be able to

make money with other people and one

0:30:560:30:59

of the great things we have working

to our advantage of EU regulatory

0:30:590:31:03

compliance. We have exactly the same

regulations as the EU so whenever

0:31:030:31:07

the EU does something -- does a deal

with someone, we only have to come

0:31:070:31:13

up behind ago, are next.

Yes, but if

they change, we would have to change

0:31:130:31:19

with them or lose the market.

We

would be in charge of our own

0:31:190:31:24

regulations. When it is outside of

the EU, it has exactly that

0:31:240:31:30

flexibility to adapt to markets.

I

would just say that Canada only took

0:31:300:31:34

three years to negotiate and we

don't have 16,500 goods tariffs, we

0:31:340:31:39

have no quotas, and all our years

are going to be taken in, hence the

0:31:390:31:48

repeal bill.

And what we are going

to do on leaving the EU is diverged

0:31:480:31:52

on everything and the minute we

diverged on a single regulation,

0:31:520:31:57

they are going to have to check the

import of everything in practice in

0:31:570:32:02

case we are not sticking to their

regulations.

It is all agreeable.

0:32:020:32:08

No, it isn't. You can't have it both

ways.

80% of our trade is within the

0:32:080:32:14

UK. 20% is international and 90% of

that growth will come from outside

0:32:140:32:19

of Europe.

Not on the latest

figures.

David, your confidence is

0:32:190:32:24

infectious.

Let's come back in two

years to see.

0:32:240:32:36

As we heard earlier,

the most powerful debate

0:32:360:32:38

in the European Parliament this week

was about sexual harassment

0:32:380:32:41

and whether the European Union

should do more to combat it.

0:32:410:32:43

However during the discussion

the focus also shifted

0:32:430:32:45

onto the Parliament itself with many

stories emerging of staff being

0:32:450:32:48

the victims of harassment and abuse.

0:32:480:32:49

Here's what EU Commissioner Cecilia

Malmstrom had to say

0:32:490:32:52

when she opened the debate.

0:32:520:32:53

Women that have been

in some form or another

0:32:530:32:55

harassed by their boss,

by their colleague,

0:32:550:32:57

by their teacher, their neighbour

or a stranger on the street.

0:32:570:33:00

These stories shout to us.

0:33:000:33:02

It's a feminist outcry

from all across the world

0:33:020:33:06

from women who said enough.

0:33:060:33:09

This is enough.

0:33:090:33:10

We refuse to be silent,

we refuse to accept.

0:33:100:33:12

We have set aside 6 million euros

last year and 12.7 for this year,

0:33:120:33:18

million, and projects across the EU

have been a lifeline for many

0:33:180:33:21

organisations who otherwise

would not be able to do their work.

0:33:210:33:31

Joining me now is the Labour MEP

Neena Gill who's been

0:33:310:33:33

following the debate closely.

0:33:330:33:36

Hello. Just give us a bit of

background. We know the problem.

0:33:360:33:43

What can the European Union do about

it?

Well, firstly we have to put our

0:33:430:33:49

own house in order and that's what

we've been trying to do. I mean,

0:33:490:33:52

clearly we need to make sure that

there is a safe place for victims to

0:33:520:33:56

be able to come through and raise

these issues but beyond that we are

0:33:560:34:01

looking at having a committee where

MEPs, who like many people in this

0:34:010:34:06

situation have disproportionate

power against very many, let's say

0:34:060:34:13

young women, because it is

disproportionately women who are

0:34:130:34:16

affected, so what we are doing is

asking the bureau of the parliament

0:34:160:34:20

to make sure they take action.

We

will talk about the European

0:34:200:34:29

Parliament in a second, Neena, but

as an institution, the union,

0:34:290:34:33

Brussels, what can they do about

this across Europe?

I think we need

0:34:330:34:38

to make sure that it is actually,

you know, it is already illegal but

0:34:380:34:43

that all the member states are

implementing the laws properly, that

0:34:430:34:46

there is a legal let's say

punishment or procedure in countries

0:34:460:34:53

in member states.

Is that not up to

member states?

Yes, but the EU can

0:34:530:34:59

pass regulation to that effect and

we need to also propose that there

0:34:590:35:06

is a new regulation about violence

against women. So, you know, there

0:35:060:35:11

is something the EU can do. The UN

is talking about it. It is not just

0:35:110:35:17

a problem facing Europe, it is a

global problem and the UN, the

0:35:170:35:22

European Union and other regional

bodies that we are working with, we

0:35:220:35:25

could make it unacceptable, that it

is not OK. A bit like we have made

0:35:250:35:30

smoking in this country, it is not

acceptable to trivialise sexual

0:35:300:35:34

harassment.

Smoking and sexual

harassment are a little different,

0:35:340:35:38

but we take your point. You mention

Parliament itself and what seems to

0:35:380:35:42

have been going on, what is said to

have been going on that by way of

0:35:420:35:47

women not being safe inside the

Parliament of the European Union.

0:35:470:35:50

What sort of examples are we talking

about here?

Well, we have the

0:35:500:35:56

majority of people in power still

are men both in terms of the

0:35:560:36:01

officials and parliamentarians. You

have very many young women who come

0:36:010:36:04

to work in Parliament or come for

work experience and of course you

0:36:040:36:12

have this imbalance of power and

often somehow there is a feeling a

0:36:120:36:17

bit like in the film industry and in

politics here as well that it's OK,

0:36:170:36:23

young women are expected to do more

than the job they are there to do.

0:36:230:36:29

Someone was saying there is a

culture of silence around the

0:36:290:36:32

Parliament, people felt unable to

raise concerns they had all tell

0:36:320:36:36

stories of what they had been

through.

Exactly. This is the same

0:36:360:36:41

scenario elsewhere. Whether you are

in Westminster, a big corporation,

0:36:410:36:45

you know that your job is at risk

and that is the problem. That is the

0:36:450:36:51

reason there is silence, because

most people are too afraid and they

0:36:510:36:55

don't know the mechanisms. Now, two

years ago Parliament did set up a

0:36:550:37:00

body to say, we know some of this

harassment exist and we want to set

0:37:000:37:05

up an organisation where the

assistance can go to but really it's

0:37:050:37:08

not that well-known and it hasn't

operated as well as it should have

0:37:080:37:12

been. But now with a Brussels-based

paper sort of setting up a

0:37:120:37:16

confidential forum, more people have

come out and more women have come

0:37:160:37:22

out and made these allegations and I

think it's totally unacceptable.

0:37:220:37:25

Jenni, what do you think? Is there a

role for politics at a European

0:37:250:37:30

level to make a difference here?

I

think the problem is that as

0:37:300:37:35

somebody who's lived through 30

years of all of this as everything a

0:37:350:37:39

woman I know has done, the sheer

practicality of it. I know a young

0:37:390:37:43

woman at a moment working in an

organisation with absolutely

0:37:430:37:46

fabulous liberal policies. Her

married male bosses are not

0:37:460:37:51

answering her professional queries

during the day but hitting on her

0:37:510:37:55

every single night with text

messages telling her how much they

0:37:550:37:59

want to go to bed with her, what

they'd like to do in bed with her.

0:37:590:38:03

What is she to do in that situation?

If she reports them, they are not

0:38:030:38:07

going to lose their jobs but they

are going to hate her and she will

0:38:070:38:12

get a reputation as a troublemaker

and her career in the industry where

0:38:120:38:15

she is just starting out may well

never go anywhere because other

0:38:150:38:20

employees particular -- other

employers particularly men would

0:38:200:38:25

think, I don't want her in my

office. It's down to the power

0:38:250:38:29

imbalance. It doesn't matter how

many confidential lines you have, if

0:38:290:38:33

that woman reports babies, they know

who has reported it.

We have to move

0:38:330:38:40

on. Thank you. -- if that woman

reports the abuse.

0:38:400:38:46

Who's coming in and who's going out?

0:38:460:38:47

This week MEPs voted to introduce

new entry and exit checks for people

0:38:470:38:50

visiting the borderless Schengen

area from outside of Europe.

0:38:500:38:53

It's designed to plug a gap

in the EU's border security,

0:38:530:38:55

while Europol will use

the new database to identify

0:38:550:38:58

terrorists and track

criminal suspects.

0:38:580:38:59

Adam Fleming reports

from Strasbourg.

0:38:590:39:00

Comings and goings

at the parliament.

0:39:000:39:01

This is all about entry and exit

to the EU by nationals

0:39:010:39:04

from non-EU countries.

0:39:040:39:06

In the analogue era,

all you needed was a passport

0:39:060:39:10

with a visa and some stamps in it.

0:39:100:39:16

Under the digital entry

and exit system, there

0:39:160:39:18

will be a joint database

0:39:180:39:19

of biometric information

which will tell border guards that

0:39:190:39:22

somebody has stayed in the EU

for longer than the 90 days

0:39:220:39:25

that they are allowed.

0:39:250:39:27

It is essential that we effectively

manage, protect and secure

0:39:270:39:31

our external borders, that we have

full knowledge of who comes in.

0:39:310:39:38

It is in this spirit that we have

proposed the entry exit system.

0:39:380:39:43

It's designed to help stop

terrorists, like the perpetrator

0:39:440:39:48

of the Berlin attack last Christmas.

0:39:480:39:57

He travelled using 15

different identities.

0:39:570:39:58

But some MEPs have been torn

between security and human rights.

0:39:580:40:01

It is a balance compromise.

0:40:010:40:02

In the first place,

I was against these smart borders

0:40:020:40:05

but the latest developments show us

Europeans are concerned

0:40:050:40:07

and security is a problem.

0:40:070:40:09

We have to strengthen our borders.

0:40:090:40:14

But on the other hand,

it has to go hand-in-hand

0:40:140:40:16

with fundamental rights.

0:40:160:40:19

The time that personal data would be

held has been a big deal.

0:40:190:40:22

It has been reduced during

the passage of the legislation

0:40:220:40:25

but it is still too long for some.

0:40:250:40:27

My main concern is that

here there is a huge

0:40:270:40:29

collection of travellers' data

from all travellers coming

0:40:290:40:32

to the European Union

and going outside and retention

0:40:320:40:37

for up to three years of this data,

no matter if that person

0:40:370:40:40

is suspicious or risky.

0:40:400:40:43

And that is something which I think

is disproportionate.

0:40:430:40:47

We need to focus on those persons

who are risky and suspicious

0:40:470:40:50

and collect more data on those

rather than having a general

0:40:500:40:54

suspicion towards all travellers.

0:40:540:41:00

And trust Ukip's Gerard Batten

to find a Brexit angle.

0:41:000:41:03

He's even written a book about it.

0:41:030:41:08

We will be affected

after we leave the European Union

0:41:080:41:10

because we will be a third country,

so our biometric data will be shared

0:41:100:41:14

with all of the countries

of the European Union.

0:41:140:41:17

It's not unreasonable for European

countries to want a system.

0:41:170:41:19

The USA have a system,

the UK has the system,

0:41:190:41:22

they need their own system.

0:41:220:41:25

My concern is that we are sharing

information across the board

0:41:250:41:27

with the EU and this will be

shared with countries

0:41:270:41:30

that we cannot trust,

they are deeply corrupted,

0:41:300:41:32

institutionally corrupted.

0:41:320:41:33

Another country that

comes up is Canada.

0:41:330:41:37

Yes, I know it's not in the EU

but it has signed a deal

0:41:370:41:41

with the EU to share

0:41:410:41:42

airline passenger data,

a deal that's been held

0:41:420:41:44

up because of a ruling

by the European Court of Justice.

0:41:440:41:46

Some MEPs think the same thing

could happen with this legislation.

0:41:460:41:49

If it did, that might mean the entry

exit legislation isn't ready

0:41:490:41:52

to go in 2020 as planned.

0:41:520:41:59

Adam Fleming with that report. Tim

Stanley, we are back again right in

0:41:590:42:03

the middle of the argument of the

balance between security and

0:42:030:42:06

privacy. Has that balance shifted?

It is perfectly reasonable for the

0:42:060:42:11

EU to say it wants to better monitor

who is coming in and out. After all,

0:42:110:42:16

the context of this is that huge

march of refugees across the

0:42:160:42:21

continent, the context of national

countries having to set up borders

0:42:210:42:25

again within Schengen, which they

don't want to do, and the context is

0:42:250:42:30

terrorism. So it's perfectly

reasonable they should police their

0:42:300:42:33

borders. Gerard Batten is right. I

would say it's perfectly reasonable

0:42:330:42:38

for the UK to say hey, we don't want

you holding alloy that is in state

0:42:380:42:43

for three years. So what was once an

internal UK -- EU discussion is now

0:42:430:42:49

a discussion between the EU and a

nation state. Let the UK make a case

0:42:490:42:57

for its citizens privacy.

We heard

in the report that the very real

0:42:570:43:00

concern about data being held but

when you look at the threat across

0:43:000:43:06

the world including countries in

Europe, can we simply not be too

0:43:060:43:09

squeamish about this stuff now?

I

think you have to keep wondering

0:43:090:43:12

about what powers governments have

because none of us want to end up in

0:43:120:43:18

a situation where some right-wing

government or some very left-wing

0:43:180:43:22

government then starts misusing data

in a way that we don't anticipate,

0:43:220:43:26

so I think it's very important that

we keep worrying about what they do.

0:43:260:43:30

Tim is absolutely right. The world's

preoccupations have shifted. We

0:43:300:43:34

don't know, for example, who other

members of Isis or Al-Qaeda among

0:43:340:43:40

the million refugees who came into

Europe last year and is absolutely

0:43:400:43:44

right and citizens would demand that

the EU should be intelligent about

0:43:440:43:48

the state.

There's also an element

of hypocrisy that on the one hand

0:43:480:43:52

the UK once open -- the EU wants

open borders...

It's a trade-off,

0:43:520:43:59

isn't it? That is all for now.

0:43:590:44:04

Thanks to all my guest

and particularly Tim

0:44:040:44:06

and Jenni for joining me throughout

the programme, goodbye.

0:44:060:44:10

Ooh, yes.

0:44:140:44:15

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