26/10/2017 Daily Politics


26/10/2017

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Jo is joined by the chief executive of the RSA and former adviser to Tony Blair, Matthew Taylor.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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They are calling it Care BnB -

NHS bosses in Essex plan

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to discharge bed-blocking patients

to members of the public

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with a spare room.

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But is it an appropriate way

to treat these vulnerable people?

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A hand-out from government

for everyone from the unemployed

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to millionaires -

could a Universal Basic Income

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for all really be a good idea?

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Sheffield Hallam MP Jared O'Mara

is no longer a Labour MP,

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as the party investigates

allegations he used abusive,

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sexist and homophobic language.

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But does the party have good enough

vetting to prevent unsuitable

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candidates being selected?

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And who's top dog in

the House of Commons?

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We'll bring you Parliament's

premier pooch.

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All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today

is Matthew Taylor -

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he was head of the policy unit at No

10 under Tony Blair and is now

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the Chief Executive of the RSA.

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The Royal Society for

the Encouragement of Arts,

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Manufactures and Commerce

which describes itself

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as "an enlightenment"

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organisation - so we look forward

to being enlightened over the next

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60 minutes.

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By you!

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First this morning -

up to 300,000 people with long-term

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mental health problems have

to leave their jobs each year.

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That's according to a report

commissioned by Theresa

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May published today.

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It also claims poor mental health

costs the UK economy up

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to £99 billion each year.

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The Prime Minister is asking NHS

England and the civil service

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to accept the report's

recommendations and said it showed,

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"We need to take action."

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The question is - what action?

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It sounds like radical action is

needed.

There is no question the

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issue of mental health has moved off

the agenda and it is a bigger cause

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for people to be absent from work or

even worse drop out of work

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entirely. I undertook a review

earlier this year for the Prime

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Minister about work. One of the

things I argued in that is we need a

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more concerted approach to health

and well-being at work, bad work

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makes people sick so part of the

reason people have mental health

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problems is because we have too much

work which is stressful which

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doesn't give people a voice autonomy

at work and I think this is a role

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for local government. If city mayors

combined authorities and could take

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the lead in bringing together

employers, the health service,

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voluntary sector organisations and

say, what can we do to improve the

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quality of health and well-being at

work, and make it easier for people

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with mental health issues to get

back into work?

It is all very well

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having reviews, recognising that

action needs to be taken, that there

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is a serious problem, whether it is

with mental health, or more recently

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the racial disparity audit the

government has carried out. But if

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there is no real money behind it it

doesn't necessarily mean it is all

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about money but if there is no real

money behind it isn't it just virtue

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signalling?

It is obviously better

to be about lot of that money into

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these initiatives but what I would

say about mental health and health

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and well-being at work is often the

issue is the lack of joining up.

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What we should be doing is more

preventative work, helping employers

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to understand the conditions which

they need to create to make it

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easier for people to maintain their

well-being but also to enable people

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to talk about mental health issues

thoroughly on. That should be in the

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interests of employers because they

don't want to lose good staff. It is

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in our interests because those

people will stay in work rather than

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falling back into the benefits

system.

What about people out of

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work and trying to get them back in?

The figures of 300,000 for the whole

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of the UK and there has been a cut

in mental health nurses working in

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the NHS in England you will not get

those people back easily.

I make a

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distinct and between that, this is

one of the number of a growing list

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of funding challenges. There is

another issue which is simply about

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raising awareness. I am an employer

on the RSA and we have thought hard

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about mental health issues and

well-being with a well-being

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strategy. If you do that kind of

thing you are less likely to find

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members of staff who come in so

stressed and anxious that they drop

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out of work. Actually, there is more

that can be done because there is an

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aligned interest in terms of what

the public need, what people

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themselves need and what good

employers need.

Thank you.

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Now, the NHS in England

is increasingly struggling to deal

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with the problem of patients who no

longer need hospital care

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but are waiting to be discharged.

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Last year there was a 40% rise

in people occupying hospital beds

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who could be cared for at home

or in the community.

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Well, one NHS Trust thinks it may

have found a solution.

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Dubbed Care BnB, the idea

is to ask local residents

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to with spare rooms to host patients

recuperating from hospital -

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all for a little extra cash.

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The scheme is part of an Essex trial

which would see 30 patients waiting

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for discharge from hospital stay

with local residents

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who have a spare room.

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Health care start-up firm

CareRooms is recruiting

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hosts near Southend University

Hospital who they say could earn up

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to £1000 a month for taking

in a patient who is

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ready to be discharged.

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Hosts would be required to heat up

meals, supply drinks and offer

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conversation and company.

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This isn't the first controversial

measure that's been proposed by NHS

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organisations in recent weeks

against the backdrop

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of budget deficits.

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Earlier this month three

Clinical Commissioning Groups -

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or CCGs - announced plans

to ration non-urgent surgery.

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Smokers in East and North

Hertfordshire CCG are to be

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breathalysed to prove they have quit

before being referred for surgery.

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And obese patients will also be told

they cannot have an operation

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unless they lose weight.

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NHS England has also been delaying

cataract surgery until people can no

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longer perform daily activities.

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And some CCGs have told patients

gluten-free food will no longer be

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offered on prescription.

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Well, earlier I spoke

to Dr Sarah Woolaston, the chair

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of the Health Select Committee.

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I started by asking her if the

scheme had her support.

If it is

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something where you are bringing in

people who have experienced, former

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carers who have an adapted home,

that might be something worth

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piloting but that is not what is

being asked, this is just random

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members of the public being asked if

they would like to make some extra

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money. That is not the way forward

and my question for NHS England

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would be, are these bodies going to

be registered with the Care Quality

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Commission so that we can be putting

quality and safety at the heart of

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this? I think that is a crucial

question here.

Would you like to see

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the pilot end? You don't think they

should even be experimented with?

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The idea that we do everything we

can to make sure we stop the

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revolving door back into hospital of

people who are discharged home

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Internet settings where they are not

managing, we should look at all the

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options. But what we know from the

state of care from the Care Quality

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Commission is the whole system is

under pressure. My big ask of the

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government is to look at not just

social care but the NHS, look at the

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whole system. When they bring

forward their consultation in the

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green paper don't keep them as two

separate systems, they have to be

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brought together and we need a

proper review of long-term

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sustainability across health and

care.

Isn't this an innovative way

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of tackling the bed blocking

problem, which is such an issue

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within the NHS? Isn't it better to

actually send an old person out of

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hospital to a warm home where they

are going to get a warm meal and be

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looked after in the broadest

possible sense by another member of

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the public, good one?

Well, I think

the term blocking is pejorative and

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I think we should say Dimeck

transfer of care. It is offensive

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for a lot of old people. -- delayed

transfer of care. Many people I have

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come across who have been former

carers I have seen could provide a

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wonderful way home, if you like, out

the fundamental underlying problem

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here is the shortage of social care

Puvrez -- provision and social care

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in the community and the whole of

the funding for health and social

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care needs to be looked at to get

something sustainable for the

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future. It is under huge pressure.

If there was a registration system

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and of qualified carers would money

dumped my to patients online would

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that be acceptable?

This is a pilot

that has been proposed and what

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needs to happen now is we need to

carefully at the pilot and make sure

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quality and safety are at the heart

of it. As a bare minimum this

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company should be registered with

the Care Quality Commission. The

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idea that we conduct a pilot isn't

something I would say that we

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absolutely must do. Of course we

must continue to look at all of the

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innovative solutions but I would say

let's go back a step and save the

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fundamental problem here is the

shortage of care provision. We know

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that care home providers are still

under enormous pressure, we are

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losing many care home beds and the

workforce in social care is really

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at breaking point.

How much more

money should be spent by the

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government?

We know that in the

short term by 2019-2020 we're

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looking at a funding shortfall in

social care of around 2 billion.

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What we don't have in the NHS and

social care is a body looking over

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the horizon at the long-term giving

us good quality data about all of

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the demographic challenges we face

and what the needs and costs are so

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that we can properly plan for it.

Magath health and social cake

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together. We keep on having dysuria

funding of health and social care.

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What about depriving surgery to

patients who haven't quit smoking?

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Is that a good idea?

You have to

look at it from the clinical point

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of view, if you are a smoker having

a routine operation and can stop

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smoking before that that is in your

best interests.

That is not what is

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being suggested, they are saying

let's deprive that surgery as a

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proposal going forward to the people

have not given up smoking and until

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they do give it up we will not

perform the operation, is that

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right?

I think if it is being done

purely as a rationing measure I

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don't agree. If it is being done as

a way of saying we can give you a

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better outcome of your surgery if

you stop smoking than I think that

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is worth trying. If it is routine

and there is no urgency at all about

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it and you have three months to give

up smoking before you have surgery,

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that is absolutely going to be in

your best interests, it shouldn't be

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a rationing measure.

It has been put

forward partly as a rationing

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measure as well as improving

outcomes, in the same way that

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people who are overweight or obese

are being told they must lose weight

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before they have an operation. Would

you support that?

It wouldn't be

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right to deprive people of the

surgery they need because they are

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overweight. But again, if there are

opportunities to improve outcomes

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before they start and it is not

urgent of course that is in their

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clinical interests but should not be

used as a rationing measure.

The

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other suggestions are delaying

cataract surgery until people can no

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longer perform daily activities. Is

that justifiable?

That is not

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justifiable and there have been

announcements on that recently and

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Simon Stevens also commented on it.

That is unacceptable. And of course

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it means we sometimes end up with

greater costs in the long term in

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the NHS because of people are

becoming more and more disabled at

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home because of low vision had more

likely to fall that in itself has

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serious consequences not just for

them as individuals but it can add

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costs to the NHS.

But this is the

reality for many local NHS trusts.

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They are doing this because they

just haven't got the money to

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perform all these operations. Do you

have sympathy with them?

What we

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need to look at, and it's something

I race with Simon Stevens when he

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came to the health committee, is

this idea that what has to give? The

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system is under huge pressure. What

is going to give? Is it going to be

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waiting times for routine surgery?

He indicated that is part of the

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system that will slip. We have seen

that already, increasing waiting

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time through routine surgery, and we

are seeing all the other markers of

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pressure in the NHS is starting to

flash warning lights now. But as I

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say, we have to take a step back,

look at sustainable long-term

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funding and the workforce for NHS

and social care.

In the meantime, do

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you think rationing is going to

become the norm?

I think we have

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always had that to a certain degree

in the NHS, let's be clear about

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that. But what we know is waiting

times are likely to be increased as

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the service comes under increasing

pressure. And I say again, we need

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to have an honest discussion with

the public about all the options for

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long-term sustainable funding in

health and care.

Including raising

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taxes?

Yes, no political party has a

monopoly. We have to look at the

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whole spectrum working together in

the best interests of the public.

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Would you support an increase in

income tax to support improved

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funding in health?

We have to look

at what they have done in Japan and

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Germany where people over a certain

age start to pay an increased

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precept towards their social care

costs. Pulling the risks of social

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care. There are lots of things that

we could do to get more money into

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the total system. There are things

we could do going back and looking

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again at benefits for wealthy

pensioners. Should we tax those

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benefits? We know the manifesto

proposal is not going to be

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supported by the DUP. There are

things we know that our political

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realities that we can't get through

Parliament. And that's the trouble,

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we're kind of court now, I think for

ever, for manifestos, with nobody

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sitting at honest truth is for the

public. This is the only stage of

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the political cycle where we can

realistically get political parties

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to sit down together, think about

what the options are, stop looking

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at this from a sort of party

perspective of how am I going to get

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the highest number of MPs by not

being honest with people? Set out

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all the options and come to a

conclusion about how we are going to

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fund this, because otherwise I'm

afraid the public are not going to

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have any respect for politicians if

we can't get to grips with this.

Dr

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Sarah Woolaston. We asked for an

interview with a spokesperson from

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Southend University Hospital but

nobody was available. Matthew

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Taylor, is on the idea of Care BnB a

disaster waiting to happen?

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No, I think it is a great idea.

There is a charity called Shared

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Lives which provides adult foster

care, it encourages people to treat

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vulnerable people as members of the

family, it provides a support

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services, you do not have to stick

with it if it is not working, and I

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think that model can work in this

case. Look, there are millions of

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empty bedrooms in this country, and

millions of people who are generous

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people who would like to be able to

support other people, and wouldn't

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all of us much rather be receiving

care in a family home with people

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that we know, rather than being in

hospital, which, as we know, is a

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bad place to be if you are sick?

But

these are not necessarily people you

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would know, the suggestion is

elderly people would go into the

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home of the people they do not know,

no medical qualifications, and

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surely there risk attached to that.

There are risks attached to

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everything, and if you have a

culture of avoiding risk, you will

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never get anywhere. Of course, you

need to get this right, any family

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would need to have basic training,

not terribly sophisticated, basic

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health training, they would need to

know they get the support they need

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by simply making a phone call. But

as long as you put all that in

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place, the idea has got a compelling

logic to it.

You say it is

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innovation Daesh isn't it

desperation on behalf of NHS trusts

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who are so strapped for cash and

cannot deal with the revolving door

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of elderly patients?

I make a

fundamental distinction between some

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of these ideas that we are

discussing, the rather crude

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rationing, which is desperation, and

this, which is a good way of saying,

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if you are elderly and frail, you

would rather be in a nice bedroom, a

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nice house with people who know your

name and how many sugars you like in

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a cup of tea, rather than being in a

hospital where you are likely to

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pick up an infection and which cost

a lot more. Essex is right, pilot it

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with 30 people, find out how it

works, but to suggest that you

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should not even explore it...

So

Sarah Wollaston is wrong.

I think it

0:17:320:17:38

is completely wrong to say that you

should not even explore the idea. If

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there are fundamental flaws, it will

be discovered at pilot stage.

Just

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briefly, before we end, what is

wrong to saying to someone that you

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have a better outcome if you stop

smoking or lose weight before an

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operation?

If there is a clinical

basis for it, that is to say, if you

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don't change or habits, the

treatment is not going to work, I

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agree with that. But when it gets

into the business of morally judging

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people, I don't know where the end

of that is.

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Now, universal basic income.

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The idea: Give every

citizen a wodge of cash,

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regardless of how rich

they are or whether they have a job,

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and then you could do away with most

of the benefits system.

0:18:220:18:24

It may sound a bit far fetched,

utopian even, but it's gaining

0:18:240:18:27

support across the political

spectrum, and four councils

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in Scotland, with the backing

of the Scottish Government,

0:18:290:18:31

are looking into piloting the idea.

0:18:310:18:33

Ellie has been finding out more.

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Broadly speaking,

the way it works at the moment,

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the more you earn,

the less you get in benefits.

0:18:390:18:43

If you don't have a job,

you can expect welfare payments.

0:18:430:18:48

But what if everyone

got given the same,

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from millionaire hedge-fund manager

to unemployed single parent?

0:18:500:18:54

A wodge of cash

regardless of income,

0:18:540:18:56

resources or employment status.

0:18:560:18:59

It's an idea that's been

catching on too,

0:18:590:19:01

with countries as diverse

as Canada, Kenya, Finland

0:19:010:19:03

and India all trying out versions.

0:19:030:19:04

And now Glasgow City Council

want to have a go too.

0:19:040:19:08

In fact, four councils

in Scotland are now

0:19:080:19:10

actively looking at the idea,

and they're in the early

0:19:100:19:13

stages of designing pilot

schemes to test it out.

0:19:130:19:17

Empowering people and actually

changing the relationship between

0:19:170:19:22

the state and the individual,

and giving people

0:19:220:19:26

the opportunity to have space

in their life to not have to worry

0:19:260:19:29

about whether or not

they're going to be able to feed

0:19:290:19:32

themselves that week or the next,

I think people start

0:19:320:19:34

to make different decisions,

people start to take...

0:19:340:19:36

Maybe they would take a chance

on starting a business,

0:19:360:19:39

but it might be they choose to work

to help in the community.

0:19:390:19:46

Here's where we keep

most of Derek's medication.

0:19:460:19:50

Lynne Williams is a full-time carer

for her husband Derek.

0:19:500:19:53

She says UBI is a no-brainer.

0:19:530:19:55

I mean, when I gave up my full-time

job, what I get back from the state

0:19:550:19:59

is effectively £62 a week,

that's what carer's allowance is,

0:19:590:20:03

and it says that, effectively,

you're worth about £1.70 an hour.

0:20:030:20:08

To be given a basic income

that says, you know,

0:20:080:20:10

"We value what you do,

what you do means something,"

0:20:100:20:14

I think that, at a time

when services are struggling,

0:20:140:20:17

when benefits are being consistently

attacked, for me it's just something

0:20:170:20:20

that says we value what you do.

0:20:200:20:24

ARCHIVE:

It tells you what

the new National Health Service is

0:20:240:20:27

and how you can use what it offers.

0:20:270:20:31

Supporters of the idea admit

it would be as revolutionary

0:20:310:20:34

as the inception of the NHS and

welfare state after World War II,

0:20:340:20:38

something that, at the time,

critics said was unaffordable.

0:20:380:20:42

There is money there -

we have to choose how we spend it.

0:20:420:20:45

But a basic income itself would

be brought in and would include

0:20:450:20:48

using money that's already

in the system, to a large extent,

0:20:480:20:51

so that would include personal tax

allowance that we already receive

0:20:510:20:54

that technically is this idea

of free money for everybody,

0:20:540:20:57

although you don't see

it directly yourself.

0:20:570:20:59

It would bring in some

of the existing welfare state,

0:20:590:21:02

so child benefit, for example,

would be rolled into that.

0:21:020:21:04

Some areas would still

be kept separate.

0:21:040:21:07

We sometimes look at

the costs in isolation.

0:21:070:21:09

However, if this led to increased

physical and mental well-being,

0:21:090:21:15

with therefore less need of

the NHS and other support services,

0:21:150:21:18

if it led to increased businesses

being created, new jobs,

0:21:180:21:24

actually, we could see substantial

savings and finances brought

0:21:240:21:26

in through those avenues as well.

0:21:260:21:28

I'm told the sort of figures

being suggested for recipients

0:21:280:21:31

in the pilot areas could reflect

current levels of jobseeker's

0:21:310:21:35

allowance, so roughly £73 a week.

0:21:350:21:36

But the scheme is very much

in the planning stages

0:21:360:21:39

and isn't likely to be rolled out

for at least a couple of years.

0:21:390:21:46

We're joined now by

the Labour MP Karen Buck,

0:21:460:21:48

who opposes the idea

of universal basic income.

0:21:480:21:50

Our guest of the day,

Matthew Taylor, supports it.

0:21:500:22:00

Matthew Taylor, why do you support

it?

I think it is a response to the

0:22:010:22:08

kinds of challenges people face in

the 21st century, the growth of

0:22:080:22:12

insecurity, precariousness, people

moving between work. It is also a

0:22:120:22:16

response to the fact that success of

welfare reforms have failed to

0:22:160:22:21

address, they just move around the

problem of poor working incentives,

0:22:210:22:25

and the great thing about UBI, if it

is done in the right way, is that it

0:22:250:22:28

means poorer people, when they get

jobs, they don't lose their

0:22:280:22:32

benefits, it strengthens work

incentives, and if they have gaps

0:22:320:22:38

between work, rather than going

through a cumbersome process of

0:22:380:22:40

signing on and all the problems with

the loss in that, they have

0:22:400:22:43

continuity. No-one is talking about

a lot of money, we're talking about

0:22:430:22:47

having the basics of sustenance.

Wouldn't that be a way of replacing

0:22:470:22:51

what is still a fairly complicated

welfare system, even with universal

0:22:510:22:55

credit, which, as we know now, is in

the middle of huge rows between

0:22:550:23:01

political parties in Parliament?

Only it wouldn't do away with those,

0:23:010:23:04

because the floor with UBI, with

that idea come is that you would

0:23:040:23:11

still be required to have something

that helps you... I'm sorry.

I do

0:23:110:23:16

not know if you will be able to

continue.

One more go, you would

0:23:160:23:20

still have to tackle the problems of

people with disabilities.

I will

0:23:200:23:25

come back to you, Matthew. Isn't it

also a problem about spreading your

0:23:250:23:32

resources to thinly, that actually

it would be better to concentrate,

0:23:320:23:35

on, as you say, the working poor,

people who either do not earn enough

0:23:350:23:40

from their jobs or who are out of

work altogether?

So I think the

0:23:400:23:44

important thing about UBI is to

understand that it is a concept

0:23:440:23:47

rather than a policy, and views

about and vary from futurists who

0:23:470:23:51

see it as a passport to a post-work

society, through to much more things

0:23:510:23:58

from the RSA advocacy, which sees it

as welfare reform. Some say that

0:23:580:24:03

higher rate taxpayers would not get

it.

You can understand why.

But the

0:24:030:24:08

point is, by providing it to a

reasonably broad section of the

0:24:080:24:12

population, you address work

incentivising. The design has got to

0:24:120:24:17

address housing costs and disability

costs, and that is one of the most

0:24:170:24:20

difficult issues to deal with, but

nevertheless we need to start from

0:24:200:24:25

the failings of our current welfare

system. A lot of money and time has

0:24:250:24:30

gone into universal credit, and it

is not going to improve things.

And

0:24:300:24:33

it is about increasing the incentive

to work, I can see how some people

0:24:330:24:38

would see a UBI as a disincentive to

work, but wouldn't it encourage

0:24:380:24:42

them?

It depends very much on what

level you are setting it at, but the

0:24:420:24:48

couple are getting factor is that

people are simply... There is a risk

0:24:480:24:52

that it will put a downward pressure

on wage negotiations, which is one

0:24:520:24:56

of the reasons that trade unions are

concerned.

You would want to do it

0:24:560:25:00

in the context of the living wage,

so you would need to make sure it

0:25:000:25:04

did not become a way in which

working families come like tax

0:25:040:25:10

credits, it became a way of

subsidising poor pay. It has to be

0:25:100:25:15

part of an overall approach, and I

do not think it would be ready to be

0:25:150:25:18

introduced for a decade, but in

Scotland, Finland and other places,

0:25:180:25:22

there are ways of testing it.

But

there is opposition to it in

0:25:220:25:26

Finland, for the BBC is that Karen

has set out, the trade union

0:25:260:25:29

movement are not happy with the idea

because of what it does to wages. --

0:25:290:25:38

for the reasons that Karen has set

out.

We are seeing a theme here,

0:25:380:25:43

people being averse to

experimentation. What we will find

0:25:430:25:48

out are DBA Birrell consequences. We

don't know whether it does

0:25:480:25:51

incentivise people to work. -- the

real consequences. We need to

0:25:510:26:04

understand the payroll consequences.

In the systems that have had

0:26:040:26:06

something like a basic income, it

seems to broadly speaking

0:26:060:26:09

incentivise people to work, although

it does reduce incentives to work

0:26:090:26:15

for women with young children. And

maybe that is a reflection of the

0:26:150:26:18

fact that do not want to work.

We

know you cannot design a perfect

0:26:180:26:23

system, but wouldn't it and fraud,

as well as persuading people that

0:26:230:26:29

work is better?

Well, there are

advantages to doing this... This is

0:26:290:26:36

ridiculous.

Go on, then I will let

you go.

There are advantages to

0:26:360:26:43

doing it, but I think the

disadvantages doesn't deal with all

0:26:430:26:47

the complexity within the system. I

think there is a real problem about

0:26:470:26:51

the risk of this engaging people

from the workplace.

We both agree it

0:26:510:26:57

needs to be piloted, there is a lot

more to be learned about how it

0:26:570:27:00

works, but one thing we should not

miss out - Karen will know this as a

0:27:000:27:05

brilliant constituency MP - a number

of people have difficult experiences

0:27:050:27:10

with the welfare system, so one

advantage is you get the state out

0:27:100:27:15

of the system of regulating people,

oppressing people, and into the

0:27:150:27:18

business of supporting people to

make choices, and that is a big

0:27:180:27:22

gain, if we would like to make

people feel more positively about

0:27:220:27:25

covenant.

But you can do many of

those things without going for a

0:27:250:27:31

grant scheme.

£73 a week, does that

sound about right?

I would started

0:27:310:27:37

very modest. Not enough to live on,

but enough to keep your head above

0:27:370:27:41

water, so we don't have what we are

talking about now, people destitute

0:27:410:27:45

because they are waiting for their

benefits.

I will let you go and rest

0:27:450:27:49

your voice, Karen, thank you for

persevering!

0:27:490:27:52

The spotlight was turned on Labour

MP Jared O'Mara this week

0:27:520:27:55

when the Guido Fawkes website

published offensive comments

0:27:550:27:57

that he had made

online as a younger man.

0:27:570:27:59

On Tuesday, this programme heard

from one of his constituents,

0:27:590:28:02

Sophie Evans, who alleged

that Mr O'Mara had used

0:28:020:28:04

sexist and abusive language

towards her earlier this year,

0:28:040:28:06

before he was elected.

0:28:060:28:07

He strenuously denies

those allegations.

0:28:070:28:09

Yesterday, Labour announced

that the MP for Sheffield Hallam

0:28:090:28:12

had been suspended from the party.

0:28:120:28:14

The case has led to criticism

of the vetting procedures

0:28:140:28:17

that candidates undergo

before being selected.

0:28:170:28:22

Last night, the grassroots

Momentum group in Sheffield

0:28:220:28:24

reacted to the news that

Mr O'Mara had been suspended.

0:28:240:28:28

Very, very ashamed at the way

in which this has been covered.

0:28:280:28:34

Shouldn't he have been

interviewed for the position?

0:28:340:28:36

The Labour Party have

confirmed tonight

0:28:360:28:38

that he wasn't interviewed

to be a candidate in the election.

0:28:380:28:41

Well, I mean that just goes to show

how poor the selection process is

0:28:410:28:45

and how undemocratic

the selection process is really.

0:28:450:28:47

This is why we need

mandatory reselection.

0:28:470:28:53

From what I know, the

Sheffield Hallam constituency

0:28:530:28:55

didn't really fund it too well.

0:28:550:28:56

They weren't really sure

of who to stand, there weren't many

0:28:560:28:59

people there willing to stand.

0:28:590:29:02

So I think lessons need

to be learned, obviously.

0:29:020:29:05

Jared actually came

to the University of Sheffield

0:29:050:29:09

and obviously, based on one meeting,

you can't really judge him too much,

0:29:090:29:12

but he seemed like someone

who is progressive.

0:29:120:29:15

So I would really like to make sure

that the investigation done

0:29:150:29:18

into what he has said is thorough.

0:29:180:29:31

The views of Momentum activists in

Glasgow.

0:29:310:29:35

I'm joined now from Glasgow

0:29:350:29:36

by the Labour NEC member

and Momentum activitst Rhea Wolfson,

0:29:360:29:39

and here in the studio

by the Labour MP John Mann.

0:29:390:29:41

Welcome to both of you. Rhea

Wolfson, the journalist and Jeremy

0:29:410:29:45

Corbyn subordinate Paul Mason says

the Jared O'Mara debacle shows why

0:29:450:29:49

they need Labour Party members to

select candidates and not backroom

0:29:490:29:53

fixer is. Mandatory reselection for

all. Do you agree with that?

We have

0:29:530:29:57

to remember the context of the last

elections, snap general election.

0:29:570:30:00

Many others argued we should find a

way to include local Labour Party

0:30:000:30:05

members despite the short time

frame. That wasn't possible and it

0:30:050:30:09

didn't happen and ultimately it has

led to situations like this. I would

0:30:090:30:15

say the normal scrutiny might not

look back at social media presence

0:30:150:30:17

for the past 15 years. I have been

on record and still support

0:30:170:30:23

mandatory reselection but I don't

think that is this debate, it is

0:30:230:30:28

about local scrutiny and

accountability that comes from

0:30:280:30:32

mandatory reselection and looking

forward we should seek local parties

0:30:320:30:36

involved in selections and as we are

into selecting candidates for the

0:30:360:30:40

upcoming general elections they will

be.

John Mann, do you agree the

0:30:400:30:43

betting procedure failed in this

case? They said the regional

0:30:430:30:47

committee looked at Jared O'Mara's

CV and didn't even interview him. Is

0:30:470:30:51

that acceptable was in the Labour

Party's policy is to ask people if

0:30:510:30:56

they have anything in the background

that could bring the party into

0:30:560:30:59

disrepute or embarrass the party.

That has been the case for about 20

0:30:590:31:03

years. You are one of the candidates

in the last election. I don't know

0:31:030:31:13

if she was asked if anything in her

background would embarrass the

0:31:130:31:16

party. That is an important question

to ask because if you say no and

0:31:160:31:21

there is the non-beastly it's easy

for the Labour Party to do something

0:31:210:31:24

about it because you wouldn't have

told the truth. In Tambe's case if

0:31:240:31:29

he wasn't asked the question he

cannot tell the truth or not tell

0:31:290:31:32

the truth and that is it flawed

process. 20 years has been our

0:31:320:31:37

system doing that. -- Jared's.

The

fact it was a snap election, did

0:31:370:31:46

that affect it?

That is no excuse,

there aren't many seats that didn't

0:31:460:31:49

have people ready to go. Snap

election is just an excuse for that.

0:31:490:31:54

These procedures are straightforward

and standard. In this case the

0:31:540:31:58

Labour Party National executive and

Rhea is an elected member of it,

0:31:580:32:02

they impose candidates. If they

impose candidates because it is an

0:32:020:32:05

emergency situation they should be

following the party's rule book and

0:32:050:32:09

if they haven't done so questions

need to be asked about why they were

0:32:090:32:12

not doing so.

Rhea, what do you say

to that?

Nobody has suggested the

0:32:120:32:18

process was not followed and part of

the application process does involve

0:32:180:32:22

people saying exactly as John said,

anything in your history that will

0:32:220:32:26

embarrass the party. I agree with

John and whites swift action has

0:32:260:32:31

been able to be taken. I don't think

we are disagreeing at more scrutiny

0:32:310:32:38

must go into selection process is.

Again, I don't support in anything

0:32:380:32:42

but exceptions the NEC making

choices and choosing candidates. I

0:32:420:32:45

think local parties have to play an

important role in that.

But would

0:32:450:32:49

local party or local membership have

avoided what happened with Jared

0:32:490:32:57

O'Mara?

The investigation is ongoing

so I don't want to comment on

0:32:570:33:01

anything that is happening but I

don't want to prejudice that in any

0:33:010:33:04

way and Jared deserves to have a

fair process. Local parties play an

0:33:040:33:09

important role because they know

people in the community and how they

0:33:090:33:12

interact and if they are active.

They know if it is obvious in some

0:33:120:33:16

cases that they hold certain views

which might not be apparent because

0:33:160:33:19

they wouldn't have put it on their

CV, that does come out in local

0:33:190:33:22

party selections. It provides

important scrutiny.

Wouldn't that be

0:33:220:33:28

an important role for the local

party and local members to play, if

0:33:280:33:30

they could give to some extent

expert knowledge of the candidate

0:33:300:33:34

being put forward?

I am all for

local parties deciding who the

0:33:340:33:38

candidates are rather than Rhea and

her colleagues on the national

0:33:380:33:42

executive deciding. I think that is

good. But in this case it is totally

0:33:420:33:45

irrelevant. Jared has been an

activist, he has been a council

0:33:450:33:49

candidate before, and therefore, the

local party knows him as well as

0:33:490:33:53

anybody else. So you are going to

get situations where... Who knows

0:33:530:34:00

everyone? You cannot have a

selection process that's going to...

0:34:000:34:03

If you weed out everyone who can't

come forward and say, right, here is

0:34:030:34:08

all of my history for ever and I

have documented it. The only people

0:34:080:34:13

you would end up with are people who

have been around for 50 years with

0:34:130:34:17

an unblemished record as

councillors.

Was suspension the

0:34:170:34:23

right thing to do?

Of course

suspension was right after what he

0:34:230:34:26

did, of course, Labour had no

choice, it was right what they did.

0:34:260:34:31

The commentary from him is

grotesque. The allegations that from

0:34:310:34:34

this year are incredibly serious.

Although he does deny them.

He does

0:34:340:34:41

deny them but therefore suspended,

which is the due process, and

0:34:410:34:46

investigating him to see if he is

telling the truth or these women who

0:34:460:34:49

have come forward are telling the

truth, is important. Violence

0:34:490:34:54

against women, misogyny, has no

place in Parliament and no place in

0:34:540:34:58

the Labour Party.

Rhea Wolfson, is

it ever going to be possible to

0:34:580:35:01

ensure that every candidate's past

misdemeanours, or alleged unsavoury

0:35:010:35:06

behaviour, is investigated and

therefore dealt with before they are

0:35:060:35:09

selected as a candidate?

I think

more important than that almost is

0:35:090:35:13

what we do when there are issues.

Ultimately we have a process here

0:35:130:35:17

and I think we need to be careful

about what opportunities we are

0:35:170:35:20

giving to people to rectify

behaviour that no longer aligns with

0:35:200:35:24

what they believe. People have to

learn from mistakes and that is an

0:35:240:35:32

important process we have in place.

We need to be careful not to create

0:35:320:35:36

a generational gap. I am 27 and has

an online footprint that people will

0:35:360:35:41

not have if they are 30 years older

than me.

Do you think people's

0:35:410:35:45

online past needs to be taken into

account?

It does come absolutely but

0:35:450:35:48

we must have the process that says

you have said this in the past, do

0:35:480:35:52

you stand by it, or are you a

different person? That is what we

0:35:520:35:56

have seen here and I hope we will

see a constructive outcome in this

0:35:560:36:00

situation.

Listening to all of this,

Matthew Taylor, do you think the

0:36:000:36:04

selection process was at fault? That

there was some decision not to go

0:36:040:36:10

through due process because of a

snap election and there wasn't time,

0:36:100:36:14

and that actually having more local

membership involvement would be a

0:36:140:36:17

good thing?

I agree with John and I

say this as an employer, somebody

0:36:170:36:22

who interviews lots of people for

jobs. Either the question was not

0:36:220:36:26

asked and the question should have

been asked, however rushed the

0:36:260:36:29

process was, it is one of the most

basic. I have sat in on the

0:36:290:36:34

selection of candidates, last-minute

selections, when I worked for the

0:36:340:36:37

Labour Party. Of course you can ask

the questions. The question was

0:36:370:36:40

either not asked, a fundamental

failure of process, or it was and he

0:36:400:36:43

lied and if he lied he is bang to

rights, basically.

There is no other

0:36:430:36:51

possible outcome. Rhea Wolfson,

Labour is getting ready for another

0:36:510:36:53

election and the selection process

is under way for various target

0:36:530:36:55

seats and there is a major review

into party democracy over the next

0:36:550:36:59

12 months, which could include

mandatory reselection of MPs. But

0:36:590:37:03

aren't mandatory reselection is the

opportunity to get rid of potential

0:37:030:37:07

candidates who don't back Jeremy

Corbyn, which is something you have

0:37:070:37:09

wanted to see all along?

I want to

see mandatory reselection, not to

0:37:090:37:14

get rid of candidates who don't

support Jeremy Corbyn. Mandatory

0:37:140:37:18

reselection is a way to keep another

level of scrutiny and a level of

0:37:180:37:22

accountability for MPs. We do it for

cancer was. It is not a

0:37:220:37:26

controversial thing for councillors.

For elected representatives we need

0:37:260:37:30

a robust level of scrutiny for them

and I think mandatory reselection

0:37:300:37:33

plays an important part in that.

What do you say to that?

We don't

0:37:330:37:38

have that for councillors in most

parts of the country, we have a

0:37:380:37:41

reselection process and that

reselection process exists. If

0:37:410:37:44

people want to get rid of their MPs

they can do and there are MPs who

0:37:440:37:47

have been got rid of. Most go

quietly if their local party says we

0:37:470:37:52

don't want you again, you are too

old. With the expenses scandal some

0:37:520:37:56

got pointed to the door and went

quietly. On the occasion like Bob

0:37:560:38:00

wearing in Liverpool Bay fight it

out and get voted out. We already

0:38:000:38:03

have a process. What we don't want

is a long winded process which means

0:38:030:38:07

for me, I have no fears about

somebody trying to stand against me

0:38:070:38:10

in the slightest but Dummett

representing 20 constituents on the

0:38:100:38:16

child abuse inquiry. Of that would

have clashed with the six-month

0:38:160:38:19

reselection process you cannot do

both so we would spend six months is

0:38:190:38:23

purely going around hundreds of

meetings, whereas the process we

0:38:230:38:26

have at the moment is short, sharp.

If my constituency members don't

0:38:260:38:31

like me they have the power to get

rid of me and they will.

What other

0:38:310:38:37

prospects of Jared O'Mara remaining

NMP?

If he has lied, none, telling

0:38:370:38:41

the truth, good. -- remaining an MP.

What is the process that will flow

0:38:410:38:48

from what is going on now?

I hope

the process is the Labour Party

0:38:480:38:53

brings in someone with expertise and

specialism in sexual harassment and

0:38:530:38:57

abuse to be advising the process

throughout so that there is a

0:38:570:39:00

professional advice, and therefore

we go through the due process. This

0:39:000:39:07

happens in the workplace.

He could

stay independent, couldn't he?

You

0:39:070:39:11

cannot force somebody to resign from

Parliament. There are no powers. We

0:39:110:39:18

voted for that and parliaments

agreed. There is nothing the Labour

0:39:180:39:22

Party cannot do about that. The

critical issue is whether he remains

0:39:220:39:26

as a Labour MP. The test now will be

very simple. Did he tell the truth?

0:39:260:39:30

If there was these questions asked

when he went as a candidate, did he

0:39:300:39:33

tell the truth or did he lie? If

they were not, is he telling the

0:39:330:39:38

truth? He is either telling the

truth or these two women are telling

0:39:380:39:41

the truth and there is no middle

ground grey area with this case.

0:39:410:39:49

Let's move on to something us before

we end this discussion which is

0:39:490:39:51

about the EU withdrawal Bill. We

have been told in the Commons today

0:39:510:39:54

it will be back in Parliament on the

14th and 15th of November. As eight

0:39:540:39:57

Leaver are you believed it is going

to be progressing?

I want to see it

0:39:570:40:01

progressing and I want to see good

amendments and proper debate.

0:40:010:40:05

Frankly, we have had all sorts of

politicking going on with strong

0:40:050:40:11

views but not going into much

detail.

Is Keir Starmer your shadow

0:40:110:40:15

Brexit said could treat one of

those? He says the Brexit Bill is

0:40:150:40:18

not fit for purpose.

People who

voted for remaining are coming

0:40:180:40:23

closely together in wanting to see

the will of the people being brought

0:40:230:40:30

together in a way that is effective

and that means Parliament having a

0:40:300:40:33

proper say, that is a good thing.

Wardy you make of the accusations

0:40:330:40:37

that have been levelled at Davis

that Parliament might not get to

0:40:370:40:41

have a meaningful vote before the UK

leaves?

I think it is part of the

0:40:410:40:49

general pathology which we have got

which is we are not facing up to the

0:40:490:40:52

fact that if we are going to leave

the European Union we are going to

0:40:520:40:55

leave it largely on the terms set by

the European Union. You have an

0:40:550:40:59

enormous of politicians dancing

around telling the people the truth

0:40:590:41:03

about that. We can all get involved

in process, that is an easier thing

0:41:030:41:06

to talk about. The hard thing to

talk about is we are in a weak

0:41:060:41:10

position and we are going to suffer

pain in the short and medium-term as

0:41:100:41:12

a consequence of the decision we

have made.

John Mann Andrea Wilson,

0:41:120:41:16

thank you.

0:41:160:41:20

-- and Rhea Wolfson.

0:41:200:41:23

The Government has announced a major

U-turn on its housing policy.

0:41:230:41:26

At the start of Prime Minister's

Questions yesterday,

0:41:260:41:28

Theresa May said that she will no

longer push ahead with plans to cap

0:41:280:41:31

the amount of housing benefit given

to people in supported accommodation

0:41:310:41:34

and social housing more generally.

0:41:340:41:35

The U-turn will cost the Treasury

£500 million by 2020. The Prime

0:41:350:41:39

Minister said a government

consultation will be published on

0:41:390:41:41

these issues next week.

0:41:410:41:43

Let's take a look.

0:41:430:41:44

This is something that we've been

looking at very closely over

0:41:440:41:46

the past year, since, in fact,

my right honourable friend

0:41:460:41:49

the First Secretary

of State commissioned work

0:41:490:41:51

on this when he was Work

and Pensions Secretary

0:41:510:41:53

in September last year.

0:41:530:41:54

I can confirm that we will be

publishing our response to that

0:41:540:41:57

consultation on Tuesday

31st of October.

0:41:570:41:59

It will look at a wide

range of issues.

0:41:590:42:03

We need to ensure the funding model

is right so that all providers

0:42:030:42:06

of supported housing actually

are able to access

0:42:060:42:08

funding effectively.

0:42:080:42:09

We need to look at issues such

as the significant increase

0:42:090:42:12

in service charges that have taken

place recently, making sure

0:42:120:42:15

that we are looking at cost

control in the sector.

0:42:150:42:19

But I can also say today that,

as part of our response

0:42:190:42:22

to the review, we will not apply

the local housing allowance cap

0:42:220:42:24

to supported housing.

0:42:240:42:25

Indeed...

0:42:250:42:27

Indeed, we will not be

implementing it in the wider

0:42:270:42:29

social rented sector,

and the full details

0:42:290:42:32

will be made available

when we publish our response

0:42:320:42:35

to the consultation.

0:42:350:42:38

Theresa May in the Commons.

0:42:380:42:40

Joining me now is Kate Webb

from the housing charity Shelter.

0:42:400:42:44

Do you welcome the announcement by

the Prime Minister?

Absolutely. We

0:42:440:42:48

were facing a situation where not

only would people can often

0:42:480:42:51

vulnerable and on a low-income, to

not be able to pay their rent but

0:42:510:42:54

also providers were saying they

could not risk building. The

0:42:540:42:59

supported housing sector was

grinding to a halt where people

0:42:590:43:01

didn't have faith they could build

these properties.

The change would

0:43:010:43:04

have applied to supporting housing

and people in social housing like

0:43:040:43:08

council homes. Can you explain to

viewers why it would have been wrong

0:43:080:43:13

in your view to give those people

the cinematic money as people get

0:43:130:43:17

who are renting privately?

Generally

speaking people renting from a

0:43:170:43:20

social landlord are receiving far

less than private tenants because we

0:43:200:43:23

all know private rents are more

expensive. This was a quite odd way

0:43:230:43:28

of comparing the two sectors. There

was some groups of people it would

0:43:280:43:33

have badly affected. Young people in

the private rented sector are

0:43:330:43:37

expected to live in shared houses,

which in the private rental sector

0:43:370:43:40

they can often manage to do. It

still causes problems but that

0:43:400:43:44

market exists. That was making it

difficult for social landlords to

0:43:440:43:47

work out how on earth they would

housing younger people when they

0:43:470:43:50

don't provide shared accommodation.

The big problem was around supported

0:43:500:43:55

housing because what the government

was basically proposing is taking

0:43:550:43:57

housing benefit levels that apply to

the bottom end of the private rented

0:43:570:44:02

sector, so often very poor quality

accommodation. It was using that to

0:44:020:44:07

set the standard for how much good

quality social accommodation with

0:44:070:44:12

support should cost. So they were

comparing apples and oranges.

Do you

0:44:120:44:16

think this is a good thing?

I think

it is but the question you want to

0:44:160:44:20

ask is why this scheme developed

when it had flaws of this magnitude

0:44:200:44:23

in the first place. The other thing

is, this is one of a number of times

0:44:230:44:27

where the government has had to bail

out policies that don't look like

0:44:270:44:31

they will work, which will

presumably further restrict the

0:44:310:44:35

Chancellor manoeuvring next week.

There is a cost and to this and it

0:44:350:44:38

is quite a hefty price tag, isn't

it? As Matthew Taylor says there are

0:44:380:44:42

already challenges for the

Chancellor in his budget because he

0:44:420:44:45

is being asked to look at Universal

Credit, for example. Is there a

0:44:450:44:49

trade-off to be made?

This is the

concern because what we have seen in

0:44:490:44:53

the past is the WP, it makes these

cuts without thinking through the

0:44:530:44:57

consequences, which is why we have

ended up with this U-turn -- DWP.

0:44:570:45:02

Our concern is whether private

tenants will be asked to bear the

0:45:020:45:04

cost. At the same time you have a

housing benefit system not covering

0:45:040:45:08

the costs in the private rented

sector. If that is forced to undergo

0:45:080:45:12

more cuts when actually it needs

improvement, then it is hard to see

0:45:120:45:16

how the system will cope.

This is a

case of a policy that is coming home

0:45:160:45:19

to roost for the Tories because it

was one of George Osborne's policies

0:45:190:45:24

when he took more and more money

from the welfare budget, partly

0:45:240:45:28

because no doubt he deemed it

popular. But in fact, it has now

0:45:280:45:33

been proven that it is laying a

burden on those who can least afford

0:45:330:45:36

it.

0:45:360:45:40

It is a badly designed policy, and

there have been far too many, and to

0:45:400:45:44

be fed to this government, Theresa

May has inherited quite a few not

0:45:440:45:49

very well-designed policies.

Would

it have changed it if it was not in

0:45:490:45:53

the situation it is with a minority

government?

Policy change happens

0:45:530:45:56

for a number of reasons, and no

question that Shelter are to be

0:45:560:46:06

commended for helping ministers

understand the scale of the problem.

0:46:060:46:09

If you look at recent weeks, we are

beginning to see a new way of

0:46:090:46:12

dealing with social housing from the

Government. Under George Osborne,

0:46:120:46:17

the assumption was it was not going

to be part of the solution, whereas

0:46:170:46:20

now Sajid Javid is making a really

strong case in Cabinet.

He has

0:46:200:46:25

called for more borrowing to build.

You can't be serious about the

0:46:250:46:31

housing crisis without accepting

that role.

Do you suggest it was a

0:46:310:46:36

popular policy to trim the welfare

budget overall?

We fully accept

0:46:360:46:40

that, but what people often find is

that whilst in principle they are

0:46:400:46:44

supportive of those cuts, they get

squeamish about the consequences.

0:46:440:46:47

No-one wants to see more people

becoming homeless, but that is the

0:46:470:46:51

consequence we are having as a

result of these cuts. So it is the

0:46:510:46:55

classic way to get a cheap headline

when you announce them, and then

0:46:550:46:59

years down the line the chickens

come home to roost and they are

0:46:590:47:02

forced into these U-turns.

Meanwhile, the human cost is more

0:47:020:47:08

people becoming homeless.

Thank you

very much.

0:47:080:47:11

Over the weekend, the Foreign Office

Minister Rory Stewart made headlines

0:47:110:47:13

when he said that British citizens

who have gone to join the so-called

0:47:130:47:16

Islamic State in Syria should be

killed "in almost every case".

0:47:160:47:19

It's thought that over 800 Brits

have gone to join

0:47:190:47:21

the terrorist organisation.

0:47:210:47:23

But dozens of British citizens

have also gone to Syria

0:47:230:47:25

to fight against Isis,

0:47:250:47:28

normally with the Kurdish

force, the YPG.

0:47:280:47:30

Many of those people are arrested

under the Terrorism Act

0:47:300:47:32

when they get back to the UK.

0:47:320:47:34

The Conservative MP Robert Jenrick

doesn't think they should be

0:47:340:47:36

prosecuted, and it's an issue

he put to the Defence Secretary

0:47:360:47:40

in the Commons on Monday.

0:47:400:47:43

Mr Speaker, my constituent

Aiden Aslin has just returned

0:47:430:47:46

to Newark after fighting

with the Kurdish Peshmerga

0:47:460:47:51

and helping to defeat IS

in Syria and northern Iraq.

0:47:510:47:53

He's one of hundreds of British

citizens who have done the same.

0:47:530:47:58

Would my right honourable friend

the Defence Secretary

0:47:580:48:00

note the contribution and bravery

of these British citizens,

0:48:000:48:03

but also strongly dissuade other

young people from taking

0:48:030:48:06

this extremely dangerous course

in the future?

0:48:060:48:10

Well, I certainly note that,

and I would advise any British

0:48:100:48:13

citizen intending or wanting to go

to fight against Daesh-Isis,

0:48:130:48:17

the way to do that

is to join our Armed Forces

0:48:170:48:21

and get the professional

training that is necessary

0:48:210:48:24

and the respect for international

humanitarian law that goes with it.

0:48:240:48:29

I'm now joined by Robert Jenrick

in the studio

0:48:290:48:32

and by a British man who goes

by the name of Macer Gifford.

0:48:320:48:35

He's been fighting against the

so-called Islamic State in Syria,

0:48:350:48:38

and he joins us from there now.

0:48:380:48:44

Welcome to both of you. Robert

Jenrick, you think British people

0:48:440:48:47

who are genuinely gone to fight

against Isis should not be pursued

0:48:470:48:52

by British police.

We want to get

away point where people who have

0:48:520:48:56

been out there for any reason

apprehended and questioned so the

0:48:560:49:00

police and stand what they have done

at there and can assess whether they

0:49:000:49:03

are a danger to the public or not.

The Government priority has to be

0:49:030:49:07

keeping the population back home

safe, but the individuals who have

0:49:070:49:11

gone to fight with our allies, with

the Kurdish Peshmerga and others,

0:49:110:49:15

against IS, there should be a high

bar before those individuals are

0:49:150:49:22

prosecuted, their lives put on hold

while they are investigated, and

0:49:220:49:26

ultimately sent to jail.

Macer

Gifford, I understand you have made

0:49:260:49:30

three trips to Syria since 2014,

what have you been doing there?

I

0:49:300:49:35

have been doing a number of things.

I first went in 2014 just to fight.

0:49:350:49:41

Since then, I have worked as a

combat medic, I have set up a

0:49:410:49:45

medical unit, been a commander in

the YPG, and I have campaigned for a

0:49:450:49:50

long time for more support for the

people on the ground fighting

0:49:500:49:53

against Islamic State.

What

motivated you to go in the first

0:49:530:49:56

place?

Really, the images on Sinjar

mountain, the fact that kabaddi was

0:49:560:50:04

surrounded, the Kurds were under

siege from Islamic State, and as

0:50:040:50:09

someone who loves democracy, that

believes in secular values, I wanted

0:50:090:50:14

to go out and stand in solidarity

with the people who were suffering.

0:50:140:50:17

I really wanted to embarrass the

British Government to push them or

0:50:170:50:22

into helping people on the ground,

because at that time, in 2014, not a

0:50:220:50:27

huge amount was being done.

As you

understand it, are people who go to

0:50:270:50:32

fight in this way against IS

committing any crimes in British

0:50:320:50:37

law?

Well, it is very, catered, as

you might imagine, there is no clear

0:50:370:50:40

law on this. -- it is very

complicated. There is an historic

0:50:400:50:47

law which outlaws going to fight in

foreign wars, but it is not

0:50:470:50:50

currently used by police. Terrorism

offences to make it difficult for

0:50:500:50:54

individuals to go out and fight

abroad. What happens to individuals

0:50:540:50:58

now is that, upon their return, they

tend to be arrested under the

0:50:580:51:03

terrorism act, interviewed, bailed,

and then left in a sort of legal

0:51:030:51:06

limbo for a long period of time,

because there is so little evidence

0:51:060:51:09

to determine what they did or did

not do at there. Generally they are

0:51:090:51:14

released back into the general

population but with a cloud hanging

0:51:140:51:16

over them for many years to come

potentially.

Are you worried what

0:51:160:51:20

will happen to you when you come

back to the UK? Hugely.

I have been

0:51:200:51:27

here three times, I have not been

arrested in the past, I have been

0:51:270:51:30

stopped under the Terrorism Act,

which I wholly support. Robert is

0:51:300:51:36

absolutely right, we should be

stopped and questioned about what we

0:51:360:51:39

have been doing, but at the end of

the day, the vast majority of us are

0:51:390:51:43

former servicemen, and I can speak

for them in saying that we are

0:51:430:51:46

largely patriotic, very patriotic

from my point of view! We believe in

0:51:460:51:54

democracy, we believe in secular

values, we are fighting against

0:51:540:51:57

Britain's enemies, and having this

over my head is not particularly

0:51:570:52:02

pleasant, particularly if there is

not a guarantee, or what is the

0:52:020:52:07

word, particularly as there is no

chance of them successfully

0:52:070:52:10

prosecuting me. If they were to

arrest me, it goes on my record, I

0:52:100:52:15

can't is goodbye to any visa to

America or Australia, so it is a

0:52:150:52:19

punishment outside of the law if

they do arrest me.

But can you

0:52:190:52:25

understand why you are arrested, or

could be arrested, I should say,

0:52:250:52:29

others coming back to the country,

because the authorities need to

0:52:290:52:36

ensure that your story stands up,

and it is very difficult to verify

0:52:360:52:41

that story? You have chosen,

voluntarily, for all the virtuous

0:52:410:52:45

reasons you have set out, but we

have your word for that - shouldn't

0:52:450:52:51

you go through due process when you

return?

Well, the legislation is OK

0:52:510:52:57

as it is. I mean, being stopped

under section seven is the right not

0:52:570:53:01

to remain silent, whereby I get an

opportunity to express what I have

0:53:010:53:06

been doing, who I am, and I have had

to present my phones and all my

0:53:060:53:12

passwords. There is no reason why

they don't let us into the country,

0:53:120:53:20

and then they can still do all the

processes and interviews they like

0:53:200:53:23

later on. It doesn't have to be an

arrest. That seems way overboard in

0:53:230:53:28

my opinion.

Just briefly, it is

difficult, isn't it? We have just

0:53:280:53:34

listened to Macer Gifford talking

about going up to fight with British

0:53:340:53:41

allies, but there are other

organisations which are prescribed

0:53:410:53:46

terrorist organisations, it is not

straightforward, is it?

The first

0:53:460:53:49

thing to say is that we do not want

any British citizen, really, to do

0:53:490:53:54

this, because it is extremely

dangerous. I have worked with my

0:53:540:53:58

constituent and his mum and his

grandmother, and there is a very

0:53:580:54:03

real risk you lose your life if you

do this. I would strongly discourage

0:54:030:54:06

people from doing this. But if they

do do it, they should be a clear

0:54:060:54:11

policy from the Government as to how

it is handled. We are closer to that

0:54:110:54:14

than over the previous two years,

because the Attorney General has

0:54:140:54:18

said it is not in the public

interest to prosecute these

0:54:180:54:21

individuals.

Robert Jenrick, Macer

Gifford, thank for joining us.

0:54:210:54:26

Now, we've almost come

to the end of the two-legged

0:54:260:54:29

guests on the programme.

0:54:290:54:30

Who wrote this?!

0:54:300:54:32

I say almost because our next guest,

the winner of this year's

0:54:320:54:34

Westminster Dog of

the Year competition,

0:54:340:54:36

will be accompanied by his owner.

0:54:360:54:37

Before we reveal the identity

of the prized pooch,

0:54:370:54:40

here's Emma with details

of all the canine rivalry

0:54:400:54:45

as Westminster's finest

doggies howed off.

0:54:450:54:49

Normally we chase politicians

for their policies,

0:54:490:54:50

but today it's all about their pets.

0:54:500:54:53

Rocky is a fantastic dog.

0:54:550:54:57

Rocky the wonder dog.

0:54:570:55:01

He is seven years old,

he is a chocolate lab,

0:55:010:55:04

and basically he is

the glue in our family.

0:55:040:55:06

Alice is a seven-year-old

cavachon, and she's a

0:55:060:55:08

very, very warm, affectionate,

friendly dog and a great companion

0:55:080:55:10

to my wife and I am very

much part of the family.

0:55:100:55:15

Come on then!

0:55:150:55:17

As well as having to navigate this,

0:55:170:55:19

the judges have also been

looking at the relationship

0:55:190:55:21

between politician and pooch.

0:55:210:55:25

How did you get on with the course?

Was it challenging?

0:55:280:55:30

Not too bad.

Not very good with the tunnel.

0:55:300:55:33

I mean, he loves red as I'm a Labour

politician, but he was much

0:55:330:55:36

better on the jumping.

0:55:360:55:37

Obviously he could walk over

those at his height.

0:55:370:55:40

But, yeah, he did really well.

0:55:400:55:45

Now then, which MP's dog is this?

It's Maria Miller. How are you?

0:55:450:55:49

Very well, thank you.

0:55:490:55:51

How is he getting

on in the competition?

0:55:510:55:53

Really enjoying it.

0:55:530:55:54

Lots of dogs here,

lots of people here.

0:55:540:55:56

As a Cockapoo he loves

dogs, he loves people

0:55:560:55:58

so it's his idea of heaven.

0:55:580:56:00

Is he particularly well

trained, do you think?

0:56:000:56:02

He's not very old,

he was only born in January

0:56:020:56:04

so he's only ten months old.

0:56:040:56:10

How competitive is it

getting here, though, really,

0:56:100:56:12

between the MPs and their dogs?

0:56:120:56:15

There's friendly competition,

and I think as far as we're

0:56:150:56:18

all concerned, it's a good

opportunity really for us

0:56:180:56:20

to mix and socialise.

0:56:200:56:21

Coming in on the Tube

was so interesting.

0:56:210:56:24

Very humanising to have a pet

on the Tube on the journey in.

0:56:240:56:28

Suddenly people who wouldn't

look at anybody,

0:56:280:56:31

it's like, "Oh, a dog, a dog!"

0:56:310:56:33

Suddenly Londoners become friendly!

Yeah, exactly.

0:56:330:56:34

I mean, I think it's great to see

them walking through Parliament

0:56:340:56:37

and just to see people smile

when they see a dog there.

0:56:370:56:40

Perhaps we should allow

dogs in every day.

0:56:400:56:48

What an adoring look!

0:56:480:56:52

And we're joined now

by the winning dog, Rocky,

0:56:520:56:55

and his owner, the Labour

MP Tracy Brabin.

0:56:550:56:59

How do you feel as the winner?

I am

delirious, I feel like I have won

0:56:590:57:06

Miss World or something! It is like

an Oscar, it is amazing. I didn't

0:57:060:57:12

think we stood a chance, some

amazing dogs, really well-trained,

0:57:120:57:16

some very cute dogs, some great

crosses, Albert particularly

0:57:160:57:21

adorable. I am just thrilled that

people saw how amazing he is.

What

0:57:210:57:26

sort of personality has he got?

Cheerful, upbeat, energetic, he is

0:57:260:57:32

seven, but still really up for it

and curious, soft as well, he loves

0:57:320:57:37

a good couple. An amazing dog, great

and the agility, that is down to my

0:57:370:57:41

husband Richard, who is very good at

training. Just really chuffed.

What

0:57:410:57:46

is the atmosphere like?

Gently

competitive, but I think it is great

0:57:460:57:53

that it is cross-party, it is just

all about, you know, the fun of it.

0:57:530:57:57

But there is a serious element in

that the Dogs Trust and the Kennel

0:57:570:58:01

Club, they are working really hard

to get a fair deal for animals and

0:58:010:58:06

puppy farming, bringing that through

Parliament. It does have more of a

0:58:060:58:11

political underpinning.

As you said,

watched you think about the idea of

0:58:110:58:15

bringing dogs to work? Would it be

therapeutic, make people feel

0:58:150:58:19

happier?

I love dogs, I was

disappointed, we wanted to have dogs

0:58:190:58:24

at our workplace, but too many

people had allergies, but I would

0:58:240:58:28

love this a dogs at work. I have to

say, it is great when you see these

0:58:280:58:33

examples of MPs collaborating, some

people say you should never speak to

0:58:330:58:36

each other, the ideologically pure,

but actually I think the public like

0:58:360:58:40

it when they see that MPs of

different views can have fun and

0:58:400:58:44

raise important issues.

And also

quickly, about loneliness, if you

0:58:440:58:48

are in the least bit lonely or be

like you're not part of a group,

0:58:480:58:52

just get a dog!

Is that MPs you are

talking about?! We feel your pain!

0:58:520:58:59

They get you out, running with Rocky

in the morning is good. So, and just

0:58:590:59:02

a dog gets you out, people will

always talk to you if you have a

0:59:020:59:07

dog.

See has been the best behaved

best we have had for a while, he is

0:59:070:59:11

even watching the programme! Thank

you very much for bringing him in.

0:59:110:59:19

Thanks to our guests.

0:59:190:59:22

Bye-bye!

0:59:220:59:24

Jo Coburn is joined by the chief executive of the RSA and former adviser to Tony Blair, Matthew Taylor to discuss the latest news from Westminster, including trials for an Airbnb-style stay for recuperating hospital patients, the selection of Labour MPs and a debate over universal basic income.


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