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Hello and welcome
to the Daily Politics.
The Prime Minister calls
for a "new culture of respect" ahead
of a meeting with other party
leaders to discuss the Westminster
sexual misconduct scandal.
But are the party leaders getting
to grips with the problem?
Lord Ashcroft, former
Conservative Party Deputy
chairman and party donor,
faces fresh questions about his tax
affairs following a huge leak
of financial documents,
known as the Paradise Papers.
We'll be discussing the Government's
and the progress of Brexit talks
with the Director General of the
business lobbying group, the CBI.
And should we give money
to people street beggars?
One activist tells us it's time
to rethink our attitudes to those
who find themselves homeless
on the streets.
All that in the next hour.
And with us for the whole programme
today is the Conservative MP,
Alex Burghart, and the
Labour MP, Liz Kendall.
Now, despite being on opposite sides
of the aisle, Alex and Liz have one
crucial thing in common.
They've both gone up against
Jeremy Corbyn in an election.
As you probably know, in 2015,
Liz was one of the unsuccessful
candidates in the Labour leadership
election which was of course
won by Jeremy Corbyn.
But what you probably didn't know
was that, earlier that year,
Alex was the Conservative candidate
in Islington North up against...
Yes, Jeremy Corbyn!
We're glad to say Alex had more
success as the candidate
in Brentwood and Ongar in June,
which is why he can join us today.
Welcome to you both!
Labour has renewed calls
for a public inquiry into tax
avoidance after a massive leak
of secret documents detailing
the financial affairs
of the global super rich.
The leak, dubbed the Paradise
Papers, contains 13.4 million
documents, mostly from one leading
firm in offshore finance.
In UK political circles,
fresh questions have been raised
about the tax affairs of the former
Conservative donor Lord Ashcroft.
The papers suggest he may have
ignored rules around how his
offshore investments were managed.
Other papers suggest
he retained his non-dom status
while in the House of Lords,
despite reports he had become
a permanent tax resident in the UK.
Well, the BBC's Panorama programme
which is reporting on the leak tried
to interview Lord Ashcroft
at the recent Conservative
Lord Ashcroft, hi,
I'm Richard Bilton,
I work for Panorama.
Sir, could I grab
a quick word with you?
I have been trying to send you these
letters, but you wouldn't take them.
Sir, could I just have
a quick word with you?
Did you have tens of millions
in an off-shore trust that
you secretly control, sir?
Did that mean you could avoid
millions in tax through that trust?
Lord Ashcroft, would
you just talk to me?
It would be great to hear your view.
It was the Punta Gorda
Trust, Lord Ashcroft.
Sir, the Punta Gorda Trust...
Dear, dear, dear.
"Dear, dear", is that your response?
It was the Punta Gorda Trust.
Sir, where we are going?
This is amazing.
We have been walking now more
about two minutes, why don't
you just give me your views?
We could have been sponsored, we
have done about a mile-and-a-half.
Sir, why don't you just
tell me your view, it would be
really nice to get your view.
No, sir, just give me your view,
did you sir secretly a control
-- a trust in which you had tens
of millions and therefore
avoiding tax, sir?
Did you do that?
Did you do that, sir?
It would be great to know.
Where are we going?
This is brilliant.
I don't know where
we're going to end up.
Dear, dear, dear.
I'm not going to follow
you in there, sir.
Michael Ashcroft struggling to find
the exit. We did a full tour of the
Well, we put a call
in to Conservative Central Office
this morning to ask if they wanted
to respond to the leaks
about Lord Ashcroft,
but we have received no response.
And his spokesman says he has not
done anything illegal.
Should he face an investigation by
HMRC in light of the leaked
I understand that HMOs
see have asked to see all the
Paradise papers to see if there has
been any wrongdoing. -- the HMRC. I
do not want to speculate on
individual cases. The Government
takes tax evasion very seriously.
You said tax evasion.
What you as
that? We have brought in an extra
£160 billion by clamping down on all
of this sort of thing. We have one
of the narrowest tax gaps anywhere
in the world that has happened under
a Conservative government over the
past seven years because we want to
get more money to put into public
The leaked papers Lord
Ashcroft ignored rules around the
management of his offshore
investments for the it is not
illegal to have offshore investments
but if the rules around them are
ignored and tax is not paid that is
rightfully owed? Should he be
The HMRC has asked for
all the papers.
It is not illegal to
use offshore tax havens. What is
Labour calling for?
There should be
a public register of who owns what
in all of our overseas territories
and secondly we need much tougher
regulation and enforcement. I would
like to see all of the advisers, the
lawyers, the accountants, held
responsible and accountable should
any of the schemes they have
proposed turn out to be illegal. We
also need to do more to reach
international agreement. We have
been here before and we need to see
the action happening now.
like to stop investors like the
Duchy of Lancaster putting money
into non-UK fans?
The issue here is
that the Queen has been badly
advised of what strikes me as the
real issue is they thought it would
be access to ball. There are
megabucks in tax havens. Some of it
is evasion, some of it is avoidance,
and some of it is money-laundering.
Do you want those investments to
I want to see a full public
disclosure of who owns those trusts,
those companies, and any other
corporate identity. I want to see
much tougher regulation and
enforcement. That is what we do know
straightaway and we need to see
action. Aye after the Panama papers,
George Osborne said a blacklist of
tax havens should be created. --
After the Panama papers. What else
has the Government done to crackdown
on aggressive tax avoidance?
spearheaded work with 100 other
nations. There is much greater
transparency than there has ever
been before. We have to be extreme
heat careful that we don't
necessarily drive investment out of
John McDonnell, the
Shadow Chancellor, spoke at the
weekend about Labour run Preston
Council as a model for keeping
wealth in the city. Reports show
they have nearly £12 million
invested overseas. Is there anything
wrong with that?
My concern is about
people not just evading tax but also
avoiding it. If you believe in a
fairer society, people have to pay
their fair share of tax?
How do you
legislate for that?
I would argue
that wealth inequalities are a
serious problem for our economy and
society. Tax havens are
turbo-charging deep inequalities.
still do not have from you where you
would draw the line on that. The
previous Conservative government did
talk about aggressive tax avoidance
full stop unless you make it
illegal, the line would be blurred.
Why are people putting money into
They want to
maximise their profits.
It is to
minimise their payment of tax. If
you believe in paying your fair
share of tax, putting it into your
school and public services, the
infrastructure helping the economy
create these services in the first
place... I don't know about that
example was that is the first I have
heard about it today. I believe that
Britain is at the heart of the tax
haven problem. Unless we take
The Conservatives have
been in government for seven years
we are still talking about this
We have taken another £160
billion in tax otherwise we would
not have taken. We have ploughed
more money into HMRC. This is it
good news story insofar as we have
been making improvements since 2010
and are committed to making further
You have not make good
on the pledge by David Cameron.
have substantially improved on
things as they were in 2010.
committed in 2010, 2013, 2014.
have said that the onus of
companies, the beneficiaries of
those companies have to be
identified rather than hiding the
hind shell companies. There are lots
of things we are doing. -- hiding
behind shell companies.
Theresa May has called
for a "new culture of respect" ahead
of a meeting with other party
leaders to discuss the Westminster
sexual misconduct scandal.
Fresh allegations have been made
to the BBC's Victoria Derbyshire
programme this morning
about a former Conservative Party
activist claiming her allegations
of rape were ignored
by the Parliamentary authorities.
The woman claims she was raped
by someone working for a Tory MP,
she said went to the police
and while the case awaited trial
she spoke to Commons
officials about how she felt
the "heavy-drinking and sex-driven"
culture within Westminster
had contributed to it.
The woman said she was led
to believe the complaint would be
passed onto the then
Chief Whip Gavin Williamson
and the leader of the
Commons Andrea Leadsom.
Both Mr Williamson and Mrs Leadsom
insist they weren't told
about the rape claims
but Andrea Leadsom admits
she was told about concerns over
the culture at Westminster.
Elsewhere several Conservative
and Labour MPs are being
investigated over claims of sexual
misconduct, and all the party
leaders in Westminster will be
meeting later this afternoon
to discuss setting up an independent
grievance procedure for Parliament.
Also today the Cabinet inquiry
into First Secretary Damian Green's
behaviour will hear
Police Assistant Commissioner
Bob Quick about allegations that
pornography was found
on his computer by police
following an investigation
into Home Office leaks in 2008.
For more on that, we're
joined by our Home Affairs
Correspondent, Danny Shaw.
Can you bring us up to speed on what
is going on?
Bob quick is preparing
to give evidence to the inquiry into
the conduct of Damian Green. My
understanding is that some other
officers who were involved in that
very controversial leaks enquiry
into Gazza then eight, 2009, are
also considering whether they will
give evidence to the inquiry as
well. It is looking at several
issues relating to Damian Green.
This is absolutely crucial. Here's
the Deputy Prime Minister. Bob
Quick, the man who oversaw the
investigation is a former police
officer of extremely great repute
and high integrity who tackled some
of the thorniest issues at the time.
He is well respected by many
colleagues and certainly statements
that he makes about this clearly
have to be taken seriously.
Green has denied the allegation that
he has also accused Bob Quick
political smears. Has there been a
direct response to that?
says he 100% stands behind the
account he gave and bears Damian
Green no malice at all. The leaks
enquiry is an uncomfortable time for
Scotland to guard and Bob Quick in
particular. -- Scotland Yard. Bob
Quick lost his job after a very
high-profile blunder when he was
photographed carrying sensitive
documents into Downing Street. It is
a difficult time for him. If
anything he feels anger towards
other colleagues in Scotland Yard
than anything more than he does
towards Damian Green. The concern
here is the use of a Parliamentary
computer allegedly to look at
pornography. That is what we are
looking about. There is no
suggestion that any of the material
is illegal but it is the use of a
work computer essentially to look at
pornography. The question of whether
the allegations were referred to the
Parliamentary authorities is
something that Bob Quick is
There are concerns
this could have a serious impact on
It could have. You
would think they would be records,
an infantry of what was found on the
computers, notes in police officers
notebook is about what they
discovered what action they took, a
policy log detailing what they took
in response to the various alleged
fines. Also it is said that a
computer expert was called in to
look at the material. If that is the
case, it should be documented. It is
not about one person's word against
another. There should be Independent
verification to prove or disprove
Shut the first secretary state,
Damian Green, step down while this
is going on?
I don't want to get
into the particular case, but what I
will say is that Damien has strongly
will say is that Damien has strongly
denied all of the allegations. The
investigation is going on and at the
end of it, we will have an answer. I
don't believe there is suggestion
that Damien has broken the law. I'm
not convinced that he should stand
whilst the inquiry goes on, but I
think we need answers quickly.
a matter of consistency, Michael
Fallon resign as Defence Secretary
and in the light of allegations made
against him your colleagues feel
that Damian Green should also, to be
consistent, step down from his
influential position while the
claims are investigated?
took a personal decision to resign
and it's for Damien to make the
decision as to whether he is going
to step aside whilst the inquiry is
going on. He doesn't think he has
done anything wrong. He denies there
has been any wrongdoing. I don't
believe there is an accusation that
he has broken the law and so I
understand he will carry on.
are happy for him to stay on?
The woman interviewed by
the BBC today, explained how she
felt the heavy drinking and
sex-driven culture within
Westminster had can'ted to her
alleged attack. I mean she also said
that women in the bars were being
plied with drink and became so drunk
that they could barely stand up. Is
that a characterisation of
Westminster that you recognise?
don't spend a lot of time in the
bars to be honest.
But you talk to
people, is that going on?
the way that she describes?
the real issue is about power and
the power and influence over your
career that people are worried
about. That's one of the main
reasons, people don't come forward
and report because they're worried
the person that they're going to
report to, might work with the
person they are accusing, might be a
friend of theirs, or just as
importantly, a political ally. So,
they fear they won't be believed. No
action will be taken or that their
future will be damaged as a result.
I have no doubt, you know, drinking
doesn't make any of this stuff any
better, but the real issue here, I
think, is about power and whilst I
hope Westminster does take action
and the party lead, are meeting
today, all of the individual
political parties have to sort their
own processes out too.
what the Prime Minister had to say.
Here is Theresa May.
Of course people can be friends
with their colleagues and
can develop at work.
This isn't about prying
into private lives.
What we are talking
about is the use and abuse
We must stand up for all the victims
of abuse, harassment or
it has occurred.
Now is the time to act decisively
without fear or favour to
guarantee a safe and respectful
working environment for everyone in
You have just become an MP. Are you
shocked by what has been emerging
and unfolding in the past few weeks?
I am actually. This is a pretty grim
time to be working in Westminster.
It's not, the stories that are
coming forward certainly don't
represent the world that I have
worked in so far and many years ago
I was a researcher in Parliament, I
never saw anything going on like
this, but obviously, there are
people who have, you know, had
seriously awful experiences and
those experiences need to be looked
into. What I would say to anyone
listening is that the vast majority
of experiences that people have in
the House of Commons are positive.
That there are lots of researchers
who really enjoy and benefit from
working there. Most MPs, I believe,
are decent upstanding people who
want to improve their country. I do
hope that that will be remembered
and I also, but I also believe that
this, that our Parliament will be a
better place once all the
allegations have been worked
It is not just what happens
in Parliament. It is about what
happens at all levels of our
politics, at local councils and I
think it is really important that
every single political party sets up
their own independent third party
system to make the initial
complaint, that there is mandatory
training of staff, of elected
representatives, and that there are
independent experts who actually
advice the parties about their
processes and that the cases that
they are looking at.
who is in the Shadow Cabinet, women
and Equalities Minister said that
these robust policies were now in
place, but didn't actually say what
they were. Has an independent third
party been set-up to investigate
claims going forward in the Labour
Party? No. . Why not?
are looking to appoint an
independent specialist organisation
that will be able to give people
advice and support. If they make a
complaint and that will do some
training of the staff involved with
dealing with those processes. I
think it is really important that
people are actually allowed it make
their initial complaint to that body
and that the training, the mandatory
safeguarding training needs to
spread wider. So I think we have
made a big step forward, but there
is more that we need to do.
we are talking about codes of
conduct, codes of conduct are for
the parties themselves individually
and so far they have not shown
themselves being able to cope with
the complaints or pass them on to
the relevant authorities. How did
you feel about Jeremy Corbyn once he
had been told about the reprimand
against Kelvin Hopkins, the Labour
MP, months later appointing him to
the Shadow Cabinet. Was that right?
Well, I don't know what Jeremy was
told or not told.
He made it clear,
Jeremy Corbyn himself said he did
know. The Labour Party said both
sides admitted they were happy with
It is strange to think
if somebody admitted to any form of
sexual harassment or abuse should
have been promoted. We need to have
action, actions must have
consequences whether that is
suspending the whip, expulsion from
the party. I think that's something
that I would like to see more
information about because I think if
you have admitted to it, I don't
know whether Kelvin did or what
happened, but promotion should not
Right, well on that basis of what
action can actually be taken because
it is one thing to set-up or improve
codes of conduct or to have an
independent body where people can go
and complain, but Michael Fallon,
admitted his behaviour may have
fallen short. He talked about the
standards of 15, ten to 15 years ago
and he has resigned, but he remains
an MP. He still has his job. Why is
it OK to still be an MP Alex, with
all the responsibilities that that
entails, but not Defence Secretary?
It's a good question, Jo. I think,
we are still at the start of a
process of looking through all of
these issues. I think the next
hurdle for that is five o'clock this
afternoon when the Prime Minister is
convening a meeting of all party
leaders to talk about collectively
what we can do as a political
culture to improve things. So this
is all part of an on going dialogue.
You see how it is not illogical
train of events if you can still
keep your job as an MP, but not as a
Well, you know, obviously
your responsibility as an MP and
minister is different. I would say
it was a question for Michael
Fallon's constituents if they wanted
him to carry on.
Also it was not
acceptable 15 years ago. The fact is
we are speaking up about it.
suspend an MP and Labour have taken
the action, but unless there is a
criminal prosecution, you can't get
rid of them as an MP, is that right?
There isn't a legal way. Even if
they are expelled from the party
they would remain as an MP. We look
at this in the Commons. I think
investigations have to happen. We
can't have trial by media.
Unfortunately, many people feel
that's the only way that they are
get going to action, but you should
be suspended while an investigation
happens and then there have to be a
range of sanctions but there is
nothing to make people stand down as
an MP even if the whip is removed.
Should there be? How would you
explain to constituents when they
say we have got this person, we
found him to have fallen well below
the standards that we would...
only way to change that if
Parliament decided that that could
happen. I don't think is available.
What do you think in the light of
allegation that have been brought
Well, there is a range of
seriousness here and certainly if
something goes down a criminal route
and you know, in any examples of I
mean, we haven't had some of the
cases that we've heard about rape
have not been by MP allegations,
have not been about MPs, but people
who work in the party or have worked
for them. But I think that the
parties have to set out quite
clearly what the actions and
sanctions will be and that is one of
the things I hoch will be discussed
today, let me come back to the
point. It can't just be about
Westminster putting in place a
proper process. Individual parties
must do that too because it's not
unfortunately just something that
happens in Parliament. It's
The Conservative Party's
new code of conduct covers politics
at all levels and covers from the
But it doesn't
deal with why people don't report
because they are worried about the
internal political bias.
It is by
the refreshing actions that we hope
more people will feel empowered to
come forward in the future.
McDonald, head of IPSA, has said
that all staff working for members
of Parliament should be centrally
employed. Do you think that would
work? Do you think it would take
away the onus on MPs to employ their
These are all things we
can look into. At the moment
obviously, the researchers who work
for me are employed by me as I'm
sure Liz's are.
Would it be better
if they were centrally employed?
don't think it would deal with the
problem, Jo. Is it going to deal
with the fundamental problem and I
am not sure it would.
I agree with.
Now, Parliament goes on a brief
holiday this week with the house
rising from Tuesday until Monday,
so that means no PMQs this week.
But the wheels of Westminster
keep on rolling.
Let's take a look at the week ahead.
On Tuesday, Commissioner
of the Metropolitan Police
Cressida Dick will face
the Home Affairs Select Committee
for the first time
since taking the role.
She'll be quizzed on the future
of policing just a few days
after criticising funding cuts.
On Wednesday, the new Defence
Secretary Gavin Williamson will meet
with his NATO counterparts
in his first such engagement since
replacing Michael Fallon last week.
Afghanistan and Russia are likely
to be on the agenda.
On Thursday, the sixth
round of Brexit negotiations
begin in Brussels.
Brexit Secretary David Davis
is expected to head out on Friday,
hoping to break the deadlock over
the Brexit divorce bill.
Thursday will also see a brief
revival of Big Ben's bells,
albeit for just four days,
in preparation Remembrance
commemorations this week.
We're joined now by
the Deputy Political Editor
of the Sunday Times Caroline Wheeler
and the Political Editor
for the New Statesman George Eaton
to discuss the weeks top stories.
Caroline Wheeler, first of all, what
do you make of the latest allegation
that has been made on the BBC
against a politician, a Tory
politician, how much more pressure
now is Theresa May in terms of
getting a grip of this scandal?
think it's one of those scandals
that it's very difficult to get a
grip of because I think what we have
seen so far is a number of
allegations being made whether
substantiated or not, but in the
background I'm aware of a number of
journalists and MPs even as well as
those outside the Westminster bubble
with stories to tell, who are
weighing up whether or not they are
going to break their cover and break
their silence and come forward and
talk about what they feel has been
going on, that's been inappropriate
within Parliament. So, it is very
difficult for any of the party
leaders to keep a grip on this.
They're saying some really warm
words about how they want to
transform the system so that it is
easier for people to come forward,
but it is very difficult when you
know, we don't know how widespread
all of this has been. There are 650
members of Parliament and who knows
how many of them have skeletons in
There has been enough
leadership from the Prime Minister
on this, George Eaton. Is did a case
it's impossible to know the scale if
more people break cover and decide
to come forward with allegations
against politicians, what more can
be done to deal with it?
It has been
difficult for Theresa May. I don't
think it helps this that her
government is in a fragile position
and it is dependant on the DUP.
Theresa May's allies would say she
acted decisively in term of Michael
Fallon, but there are Tory MPs who
don't think it is appropriate that
Stephen Crabb has the whip. He has
been accused and had admitted to
sectioning young girls and you have
seen some Tory MPs lose the whip,
but I don't think Theresa May has
given enough clarity on how she
thinks the problem can be resolved
and I mean the Prime Minister was
absent yesterday, it was Amber Rudd
who was doing the rounds and saying
it maybe right for MPs not just to
lose their ministerial position, but
to leave Parliament. I think Theresa
May would have been wiser to deliver
As it goes on and the
investigations are carried out,
Caroline Wheeler, we have been
discussing if people are found to
have behaved in a way that's not
acceptable under the new more
robust, we hear, codes of conduct
that the parties are looking at,
then you know what happens to the
politicians because they may well be
suspended from their ministerial
posts and lose the whip, but they
will still be MPs, won't they?
What we are being told as there is a
complaints procedure in terms of the
Conservative Party. MBAs or anyone
who feels someone has behaved
inappropriately can e-mail in. We
don't know who can deal with the
complaints. We understand there is
an Independent person but we do not
know who that is and where it goes
from there. It is difficult in terms
of working out what will happen
there will be people within the
Conservative Party associations and
the constituencies scratching their
heads and thinking, is this the type
of person I want to be representing
me in Parliament?
Let's talk about
the other issue and that is Brexit.
Talking about the procedure
committee. Charles Walker, head of
the Commons procedure committee
believes the oversight of the EU
withdrawal bill is not enough. What
is he suggesting? Element he is
suggesting a separate committee be
set up simply because of the volume
of amendments. --
He is suggesting.
This is the biggest task any
government has faced since 1945. Not
surprising that the House of Commons
and House of Lords are not capable
of giving it the scrutiny giving how
transformative the impact of Brexit
could be for our political system
and the UK economy.
Mark Carney, the
governor of the Bank England, said
the uncertainty was having an
adverse impact on business
investment. No doubt he will be
labelled as an enemy of Brexit by
those who want to see Brexit happen.
What is the general feeling about
the role of Mark Carney in this?
depends who you ask. It is the same
with all the Brexit stories. We
still have people who voted remains,
campaigning to remain saying things
they feel pertain to the cause.
There are those on the side of
Wexford who seek Mark Carney as the
bogeyman. -- Brexit. When you think
about the negotiations at the end of
the week there is a growing sense of
frustration we're not getting on
with it. You can see some of that
reaction from the European side. The
idea that we'll have talks about
talks and there will not be any
substantive progress until the end
of year is getting people's backs
up. At the same time we are seeing a
strong message that business needs
to know what transition will look
like by the first quarter of next
year, otherwise confidence in the
economy and in their ability to make
future decisions is very much
Let's talk about the
procedure committee and all of the
laws that have to be looked over in
the EU withdrawal bill. Do you agree
with your colleague that there needs
to be a new committee to filter
through all the substance?
spoken about this before. I think we
have to approach this with a very
broad mind about how Parliament uses
its time. In a speech if you weeks
ago I said I would be in favour of
Parliament tearing up its timetable,
sitting on Fridays and looking at
the lengths of recess. This is the
most important part of legislation
we will have to deal with in this
Parliament and it is only right that
the House of Commons and the House
of Lords gets a proper opportunity
to scrutinise it. There is not a lot
of other legislation going through
at the moment for that we can create
time for Parliament to do it and we
can do it properly.
You think that
Parliament is being bypassed?
have an assembled list of amendments
at the moment.
300 and something guy
coming up to 400 amendments.
see, as the process begins after
recess, how many people start to
support each other's amendments.
Which you signed up to?
I am still
going through the Bill and have not
signed against any of them.
enough time to look through all of
the legislation or is it as claimed
by the Government important that the
Government gets on with the Brexit
bill and the EU withdrawal bill so
that something is on the statute
books so anything not covered by the
laws we currently have because
Parliament is delaying the process.
Nobody is questioning the need to
get the EU legislation into our own
legislation. This issue of statutory
instruments and which ones are
important and which ones are not,
should we just leave it up to the
Government to determine which ones
are done in committee or which are
decided upon in the House? Dominic
Grieve and others have tabled
amendments to set that out and I
agree with it. I personally think
the most important amendment on be
withdrawal bill is to guarantee that
Parliament gets a say on the final
deal in enough time.
When would be
enough time? David Davis has said it
could all be done at the last
It has to happen before it
goes to European Parliament.
seeing a number of checks and
balances being discussed. I think it
is absolutely right we get to go
through the legislation with a tooth
comb, making sure that Parliament is
happy with it.
have a meaningful say six months
before the European Parliament?
Prime Minister has said that
Parliament will have a meaningful
It is yet another infusion.
Simon I think we can rest assured
that we will. --
I think we can rest
assured. Whenever if Parliament vote
down the deal, what happens then?
want to see it in legislation, the
final, meaningful vote.
would be able to vote down the deal.
Would you say you have to go back to
Brussels and renegotiate or do we
just fallout of the EU at that
By having legislation where
Parliament will have the final say,
the Government will deal much more
effectively with MPs to stop them
getting a bad deal in the first
place. No one wants this going
backwards and forwards. By having a
power for Parliament, it will ensure
that government works across the
House and get agreement. Simon and
there is a real danger that if
Parliament votes down the final
deal, the Prime Minister will
suddenly be able to go back and
start the whole process again. --
There is a real deal. Be you will
not play ball in that way. They will
be given more time to do that. There
is a danger that MPs create the
danger for constituents. There is a
reset button on this but there is
I think there is a safety
mechanism that the Government should
deal more effectively with MPs to
deal cross -- get cross-party
support for a deal.
We are seeing a
lot of that work going on.
find out in a couple of weeks.
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz.
The question was about
Donald Trump's visit to Japan.
What did he do that has sparked
outrage on Twitter?
Was it a) Overfeed the fish
b) Pick some flowers
c) Refuse to eat the sushi
or d) Tweet through
a press conference?
At the end of the show, Alex and
lives will give us the correct
answer. -- lives.
Now, homelessness in the UK
is a problem every party has pledged
to tackle:whether it be with more
houses or more money.
But what's the right thing for each
of us to do when we walk past
someone begging in the street?
Should we buy them some
food and a hot drink -
or should we give them the money
directly regardless of how
we think they'll spend it?
The journalist Matt
Broomfield thinks so.
Here's his soapbox.
We're often told we shouldn't give
cash to the homeless but I think we
should give them money,
directly and unconditionally.
Don't just buy them
a sandwich, they're not four.
They have the right to spend
their money, as they choose.
Don't try to second-guess
if they're really homeless.
If they're desperate enough
to beg, they need it.
Many street beggars
are addicts but addiction
can only be tackled by raising
people out of poverty.
Cutting off people's only
source of income is not
going to starve them into
seeking help from authorities they
know will not or cannot help them.
When the Government says street
beggars are refusing long-term help,
what they mean is that help
on offer is not adequate.
What homeless people need
is free, state-provided
housing and fully-funded
What they get is austerity
measures, driving them
onto the street.
Thanks to a poor state
response, charitable giving
and hostels remain life-savers
to many thousands of people.
But big homelessness
receive millions from government
and private donors every year
while those deemed impossible
to help die outside.
Many structural barriers
separate long-term rough
sleepers from hostel beds.
Many of the foreign nationals making
up half of London's sleeping
population cannot claim benefits
to access the charity-run hostel
network at all.
In fact some major homelessness
charities actively shop
foreign rough sleepers
to the Home Office to be deported.
It is the same
which pushed the narratives that
"kindness kills" as they tout for
Do not believe them.
Apathy and austerity kills.
Your kindness saves lives.
And Matt Broomfield joins us now.
Also here is the chief
executive of the homelessness
charity Thames Reach,
Welcome to both of you. Can I start
with you, jammy, why shouldn't
people give cash directly and
unconditionally to homeless people?
We have workers on the
street every day going out and
begging on the street, sleeping
rough. People on the street have
normally gone onto the street to get
money from the public. For my staff,
working on the street, it is not
something which is the theoretical
issue, we are losing people dying on
the street. Our job is to transform
lives and get those people off the
streets and get them into treatment.
Often they are into treatment. We
need to change things. 50 of our
colleagues are former homeless
people. They can tell you that we
need change. When Matt said in the
piece that even if somebody's going
to use the money for an overdose,
still give it to them. This is just
appalling and offensive.
he want to come back. You quoted
approvingly someone says, if your
money funds the final drugs kit,
accept the person would rather be
dead. Sun this is a quote from
another former rough sleeper,
another former addict. --
This is a
quote. This is as a way of opening
up the conversation more broadly.
When you say people are coming onto
the street to bake it is a fact to
get money and it is about rough
sleeping doubling, quadrupling in
some cities. If anything they are
given less cash. This is keyed into
rising poverty, austerity cuts and a
lack of adequate housing. This is
what we should be tackling.
much work you do, you will never be
able to combat, if that is the case,
the situation that Matt is
describing. If someone wants to give
money, should we make our moral
You certainly do. By
giving people money on the street
they can die. There was a young
woman living in a hostel who came
onto the street to bake one night
from people coming out of the clubs
in Southampton thought she came back
to our hostel, had a bath and a
seizure and is dead. Matt is not
someone who has to attend funerals
and talk to families about why their
daughter, son or mother died. There
are serious issues about poverty on
the street. We have high numbers of
rough sleepers. We have 1300 people
off the street and we need public to
work with us. Giving money at the
right place might actually be the
way of doing it.
In the sense that
the person who gave the money for
the heroine very sad because Turk to
lose her life, you could equally say
because the people who die of
exposure, people who did not get
money costs them their lives in the
When I was last talking
about this issue, it was two years
ago when the police had the freedom
of information request to get the
number, the percentage of people
begging on the street who were
housed and it was 20%. Only one in
five is literally homeless. We have
people coming onto the streets to
bed. Our job is to move people off
the streets and into treatment. This
can be done. It is about people
living long and fulfilling lives.
do not think the way to help is to
create a hostile environment on the
street. There is no way I can even
survive. There are many reasons why
people leave the shelter.
with us until one o'clock in the
morning. We will help people into
hostels. In some hostels, in a safe
and controlled way, you can use will
I have spoken to many people
who are out of the hostel system.
Not one is saying it is because they
have so much money on the streets.
They give a number of reasons. Most
say there is not enough money for
hostels as a first response. Maybe
difficulties with caseworkers or
people are now. There are many
reasons why people leave hostels. No
one says they have deliberately left
the hostel and gone on to the
If there are enough money
being given to be the act as a
magnet for people to stay on the
street for that reason?
We are on the street every night of
the year talking to people. You have
come out to do an article. That's
fine. We are the ones picking up the
pieces when you have moved on to
another piece. The money you can get
on the street, in two hours you can
raise £50, but let's remember...
they can get a hot meal and drink
with that money.
You don't need to
book into accommodation because it
is free on the point of access. In
our service across London, Thames
Reach has food and there is 30 soup
runs giving out food at the top of
the Strand in Central London. Food
is not the issue. Changing people's
lives and giving them accident
accommodation and helping them solve
their addiction problem is what it
The money that's given,
some of it, to people who are
begging or people who are homeless
on the street would be better if
people were encouraged to give that
There are groups I
support with the charities the point
where I decided I felt I would no
longer want to support the big
charities such as Thames Reach when
I reared about their involvement in
providing a database of location of
foreign national rough sleepers...
This is factually incorrect. We have
never away an individual's details
to the Home Office where they could
be picked up and tan off the street.
You have a database of locations.
Data protection would prevent us
doing that. I was out two weeks ago,
there were four people sleeving
rough in the reception area of a
police station and we were delighted
to help those people get off the
Have you given money to
people begging on the street?
done both, given money individually
and to charities. The two things we
need to do, one is we need to make
sure local councils are building
more council houses, affordable
housing, that's the big thing and
secondly, now, I am much more
focussed on giving to charities
because it is, you have got to fix
all these different pieces together,
what you want is a roof over their
head, something warm to eat, but
deal with their addiction, and get
them skills and training and
charities can bring that together.
Right. Building more homes as we
have seen over successive years and
with successive governments takes
time. In the meantime should people
stop giving money to people who are
homeless on the streets?
strongly encourage people to give
their money to homeless charities
and if you see someone on your
street who you feel is in need of
help, give them advice, give them a
cup of tea and something to eat, but
I would recommend that people direct
their money to homeless charities
who understand this problem better
than we do and the Government has
recently brought in the homeless
reduction Act which is a good first
stepment we are looking at housing
first model which is being
successful in other parts of the
world where you get people into
accommodation and get them the
services they are required to solve
their mental health problems.
do you say to Matt who says it is
austerity that put a lot of these
people on the street in the first
What you have seen in London
is that you have seen yes, I know
that rough sleeping has increased,
but a lot of the numbers of the
increase have gone people coming and
working from abroad rather than
people who have been forced on the
Is it as a result of
seen people lose.
Let him answer.
Those their homes.
This is a time of
record employment, you have more
people than ever in the workplace.
Rent has gone sky high. Landlords
kicking people out because...
going to have to leave it there,
thank you for coming in today.
We have had the party conferences
and the trade union congress.
This week it's the turn of Britain's
bosses to have their knees up
at the venue formerly
known as The Dome,
where they are meeting
for the CBI annual conference.
This morning has been
all about politics
with an appearance by Jeremy Corbyn
and the Prime Minister bigging up
the role of state in the economy.
A strategic state has a major
influence on the economy.
In exerting that
must inevitably make choices.
And in a democracy, be held
to account for them.
The choice which this government
makes is to deploy this
influence in a thought through way,
taking decisions for the long term.
Because while the power and
potential of the market is immense,
I also strongly believe in the good
that government can do.
Carolyn Fairbairn is
the Director General of the CBI.
She joins us now from the CBI
conference in Greenwich.
Welcome to the Daily Politics. We
have just heard Theresa May there,
the Prime Minister, talking about
the Government, state intervention
and strategic intervention of
industry and Jeremy Corbyn wants to
nationalise a few of your members.
Do you believe that Thatcherism is
Well, I think what we
have seen is a lot of common themes
around the value of markets and the
value of business. That came through
from Jeremy Corbyn's speech as well,
but a role for the state which I
think is well accepted and has to be
right. But the importance of markets
to be able to work, what we are also
hearing, I think, is commitment on
boths both sides. And that's a good
combination, good government and
leaders are talking about state
intervention and for the
Conservatives you could argue we
haven't heard as much about state
intervention as we have under
Theresa May and presumably that's
because they feel the public is
blaming big business, many of them
your members, because the market has
Well, I think that
there are questions around the role
of business and how it works, but I
think that the massive contribution
that businesses can make,
particularly now, around our
productivity challenge, the
investment that we need to raise
living standards, I think is coming
through really strongly politically
now and I think we have got the
biggest conference here... Sorry.
What way do you think it is coming
through strongly? We have heard
Theresa May talk about the
importance of capitalism and the
free-market economy, but we are
seeing and hearing policies on state
intervention on housing, on energy
which the Labour Party had first
suggested, your banking members had
to be bailed out by the tax payer.
So what way is there evidence that
the free-market economy has worked?
Well, I think in terms of living
standards that have risen and the
contribution that companies and
markets have made over many years, I
think it was where the Prime
Minister opened her speech today.
There is, of course, an important
role for the state and I think that
the points made by both Prime
Minister and Jeremy Corbyn about
housing very, very welcome. Social
issue, but a very important business
issue as well in terms of people
being able to get to their places of
work. So I think it is this marriage
of state and business that is going
to work best and it is about a
partnership. So, I think we are
hearing the right kinds of messages
and also around Brexit where the
voice of I think the economy is
coming through much more strongly
from both leaders.
So why are living
standards delining? Wages aren't
keeping up with inflation. If you
say it has been a something ses, why
are we in that state and
productivity levels are very low?
have a huge challenge around
productivity. I think if you look
over the course of the last 30
years, you know, we have seen the
benefits that markets have brought
to society and to people's lives. We
have got a massive productivity
problem and that is where business
comes in because it will be through
the kinds of investments that we
need, the new products that are
developed, the new jobs that are
created, there is a big theme here
around technology that I think
living standards will be
kick-started again and again, I go
back to the themes of industrial
strategy that we're hearing
repeated, but I think the message
from businesses are around pace, we
need to see the actions coming in
Right, well, let's talk
about Brexit because there have been
threats that businesses, your
members are going to stop investing,
they're going to have to start
firing people. Do you stand by those
sorts of comments? Is that what's
going to happen if, in your words,
there isn't more certainty on
Well, we are in a place
where firms are having to look at
their plans in case there is no
deal. And we're heading into the
period where that is happening now.
So our latest survey suggests that
about 10% of firms have already made
that move and 20% by the end of the
year and a further 25% by next
March. These are just rational
responses that firms are taking to
how they organise themselves. The
good news though is that it can be
prevented if a transition
arrangement is put in place by the
end of the year, a status quo
transition, what firms tell us,
large firms, three-quarters of them
will pause the plans. So it is a
really, are really key few weeks
leading up to the December
But what sort of
proposals are looking for? The
Government is in the middle of a
negotiation and the Government will
say it cannot reveal or give away
it's negotiating hand in the way you
seem to be calling for. What
precisely would give this certainty
that you say business needs?
I think, at moment from the
Government's side, I think we are
seeing this increasingly is unity
around the Florence speech which was
I think very, our members and firms,
thought it was a good step forward.
We need the unity around that which
I think we are seeing increasingly
and was reaffirmed this morning.
There is a consensus from Labour and
the positions are consistent and
that's a strong position to be
taking into the European Union and
there is a lot of conversation, we
are doing a lot of work with
European businesses to put the case
on the other side, why this is in
the mutual interest of all firms.
That's what we are wanting to see,
unity and clarity and urgency going
This is regarding
membership of the single market?
the transition period. For the
transition period. There is then a
massive question about the shape of
the final deal and that's what is
going to be next in line. So, again
the Florence speech gave some
indication that the importance of
keeping a close economic
relationship, barrier-free trade, as
frictionless as possible. These are
going to come back on to the agenda
in the New Year as the new deal gets
sorted out and that's going to be
the thing, if we can get transition
agreed in the New Year, we need to
quickly move on to that because
that's the next level of certainty
business wants to see.
very much for joining us today.
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz.
The question was about
Donald Trump's visit to Japan.
What did he do that has
sparked outrage on Twitter?
Was it a) Overfeed the fish?
b) Pick some flowers?
c) Refuse to eat the sushi?
or d) Tweet through
a press conference?
He is alleged to overfed the fish.
He did, but so did the Japanese
We don't know how
many fish were in the pond! I
understand in the palace, it is
teeming with these coy carp.
I'm impressed by your level of
interest in this. This is the
picture that got Twitter buzzing.
There is Donald Trump seen to be
emptying and dumping the food in one
go, but it is not as clear as the
photograph implies because as Liz
suggested the president is standing
next to Japan's Prime Minister and
which each of them starts throwing
the food in, with moderation, with
the spoon. Oh, it's the Prime
Minister who dumps husband food
first! He is laughing and so does
So, what do we think? Unfair
coverage for Donald Trump?
so. Look, he was following the lead
of his host and I think if you were
to see the grateful fish at the
bottom of the pond they would have
been eating it up!
Are you from the
Fishing Times newspaper or
I follow Buzz feed
because they reveal truth of these
Since it is a year since President
Trump came president, how will you
The year is a far
less safe and society and culture is
I think the best is to come.
The best is to come from Trump.
President Trump. That's diplomatic
That's all for today.
Thanks to our guests.
The One O'Clock News is starting
over on BBC One now.
I'll be here at noon
tomorrow with all the big
political stories of the day.
There is then a short recess, but I
will be back the following Monday.
From all of us here, good afternoon.
# The world was on fire