07/11/2017 Daily Politics


07/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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International Development Secretary,

Priti Patel, admits that she did

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have secret meetings

with the Israeli government and -

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despite what she said last week -

the Foreign Office didn't

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know about it.

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Is she fit to be a cabinet minister?

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Boris Johnson speaks

to the Iranian Foreign Minister

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after commenting on the case

of a British Citizen who's

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been detained in Iran.

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Has his gaffe landed her another

five years in jail?

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It's twelve months since

the American public did what most

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pundits had thought impossible

in electing a billionaire reality TV

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star, but has Donald Trump lived up

to their low expectations

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of his Presidency?

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And could chimps make better

politicians than human beings?

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All that coming up in the next hour.

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First today, let's look

at the trouble piling up

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for Theresa May as threats

to her Government emerge

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from all directions.

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The Prime Minister had to remind

International Development Secretary

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Priti Patel of the "ministerial

code" yesterday after it was

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revealed that Patel held secret

meetings with Israeli

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officials, including

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,

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without the PM or the Foreign

Office's knowledge.

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Boris Johnson's latest verbal

blunder has been used by the Iranian

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authorities to justify potentially

doubling a British

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woman's prison sentence.

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And Theresa May's de facto deputy,

Damian Green, has denied allegations

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he had "extreme" pornography

on an office computer -

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the Cabinet Office is investigating.

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To, add to the PM's woes, things

aren't much better in the Commons.

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The Speaker has set the Government

a deadline of tonight to publish

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the Brexit impact assessments -

a series of 58 official reports

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on the impact of Brexit

on Britain's economy,

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which the Government had

sought to keep secret.

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Amid mounting sexual harassment

claims, Commons Leader,

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Andrea Leadsom is now under fire

after being accused

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of failing to act on a rape

allegation by a Tory aide.

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Last night the Prime Minister

announced an independent grievance

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procedure for MPs' staff.

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If all parties agree that should be

in place by next year.

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We're joined now by the journalists

Isabel Oakeshott and Lucy

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Fisher of the Times.

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Welcome to both of you. Let's start

with the International Development

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Secretary, Priti Patel. How much

trouble is she in 1234

in What she

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has done is serious. She has been

carrying out a parallel foreign

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diplomacy mission, but she has been

less than truthful with her account

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of what happened. She finally

admitted that the Foreign Office

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didn't know before she went off on

her holiday that she was going to

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have multiple meetings with Israeli

officials. She was less than

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truthful about how many of those

meetings took place and this had to

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be Whittled out of her. I think her

position is tenuous at the moment.

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The Foreign Secretary has obviously

been put in a difficult position by

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this. She is at the moment being

saved by the fact that Theresa May

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has so many other crisis going on.

Is it enough, having listened to

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what Isabelle has said, is it enough

to remind the International

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Development Secretary of the

ministerial code. You would have

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thought that would have been

blindingly obvious in terms of this,

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having 12 meetings that no one knew

about. Should she resign or be

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sacked.

There will be more pressure

on her today. It is a an enormous

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humiliation for the Prime Minister.

Because she met the Israeli Prime

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Minister last week and didn't know

her minister has been conducting

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secret meetings with him. There are

questions about the ministerial

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code, if it can't be shown, said to

be the case that Priti Patel broke

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it by going abroad and having these

meetings, but an MP Mark Garnier has

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been accused of breaking it over

asking his Secretary to buy sex toys

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when he was a backbencher.

At the

moment she is still in post. Now the

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foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson and

his comments he made, because he

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claims that humour is important in

diplomacy, but this is serious,

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concerning a British citizen who is

at the moment in jail in Iran,

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accused of spreading propaganda.

Have impact have his comments made.

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It is a sense of humour failure on

the part of voters that he had such

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a poor grasp of detail that he made

comments that meant this poor woman

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who has been incarcerated in Iran on

a flimsy basis, he said she had been

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training journalists. That is not

what he said or her employers argued

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and now she could have her sentence

doubled. It is a travesty she is in

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jail and I'm amazed there has not

been more fuss about it. When you

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look at the details as I have, I

thought it was incredible that the

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Government wasn't making more of a

song and dance of it and now the

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Foreign Secretary has made her

position worse.

He is going to be

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standing up in Parliament in a few

hours, Boris Johnson, and he has

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already said that he doesn't want

his comments to a Commons committee

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to provide any basis for further

legal action against Nazanin

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Zaghari-Ratcliffe. He accepts he

could have been clearer when he made

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the comments about her teaching

journalism in the Foreign Affairs

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Committee. Will that be enough?

I

don't think so. The woman's husband

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has made clear he should retract the

comments. We know there are serve

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MPs who have stayed back --

Conservative MPs who have stayed

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back. So far people have been

concerned that the case could turn

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into more of a political football

and they don't want to put this

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woman on further risk. She is on

hunger strike and suicidal and

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Boris's comments saying he could

have been clearer, that is not good

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enough. What does it say about the

state of Theresa May's Government.

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You asked if chimps could make

better politicians, what a shower! I

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have never seen anything like what

we are witnessing at the moment. We

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have multiple scandals going on,

some more serious than others. But

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all in parallel at the same time as

this government ought to be

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completely focussed on its main

task, which is delivering Brexit,

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which is quite enough to be getting

on with without these cock ups.

Is

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it now impossible for Theresa May to

sack leading members of her cabinet,

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because of the fragile situation

that the Government finds itself n

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because it is a minority government

and Michael Fallon resigned and

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stood down and one of her other

allies is being investigated, that

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is the reason?

I think that probably

is the reason. If she can't sack

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Priti Patel and Boris Johnson, it is

difficult to see in what other

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position, whales it would take for

her to move. As one of her key

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lieutenants, Michael Fallon,

quitting the cabinet, Damian Green

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being investigated, I think next on

the sleaze allegations there will be

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questions for Gavin Williamson about

what he knew when he was Chief Whip.

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And finally on that, yesterday's

announcement of an independent

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grievance procedure for staff, will

that be sufficient to deal with this

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behaviour?

I think it is enough for

now. It is difficult to regular this

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and many of the allegations we have

seen haven't concerned the

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relationship between MPs and their

staff, they have been about MPs

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interance with journalists and it is

a good start and we have to see how

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it evolves.

Thank you both very

much. Not much for you chew over for

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the next few days.

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Now, the Government has

published its trade bill -

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it's one of nine pieces

of new legislation in the pipeline

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to prepare the ground for Brexit.

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Ministers say it includes provisions

for the UK to implement existing EU

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trade agreements and help ensure

firms can still access

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£1.3 trillion worth

of foreign government contracts.

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Let's speak to the International

Trade Minister, Greg Hands.

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Welcome to the programme. The

legislation is to allow the

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replication of EU trade deals into

UK law. Can you guarantee those

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countries would agree to trade with

the UK on the same terms as the EU.

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We are talking about two things.

First the existing EU free trade

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agreements, that the UK is seeking

to transition to become UK free

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trade agreements and a debate about

what future UK free trade agreements

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may look like. With the first set,

what we have done is we have spoken

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with all the leading counter parties

of those agreements, they're keep

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for us to do this and make sure

there is continuity for businesses

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in the UK and those key trading

partners. There is others there,

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important trading partners. It is

about ensuring continuity for

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business.

I understand that. Which

is why we have set it out. But can

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you guarantee it. When Liam Fox

appeared before the committee, the

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select committee, he said he has

hadn't received any indication that

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the country want to change the

agreement, but he said we haven't

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got an agreement. So you can't

guarantee it.

We have spoken with

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all the counter parties. All of them

are keen to do this.

Being keen...

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Isn't guaranteeing.

It is in our

interests and their interest to do

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this process. I'm travelling and

meeting these different countries,

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Liam Fox is, Mark Price did, meeting

the countries, making sure we have

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that capability.

You can't negotiate

these deals and sign up to them

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until after the UK leaves the EU?

These are deals the UK are already

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party to, it is about transitions

them from EU deals to UK deals and

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the power that is in the trade bill.

The Commons Secretary said

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continuing passporting of financial

services and GM standards and

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chlorine-washed chicks could be

problems. Will the Government give

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way on these?

He said the US and UK

trade deal is important. But nothing

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in any free trade agreement

preventing any country from having

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the right to regulate the right to

make provisions in its own domestic

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market as would affect all of those

things, financial services,

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agricultural goods and so on. The UK

has the best standards on financial

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service and animal welfare and some

of the best standards on food

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safety. The UK, those standards

won't be weakened by any agreements.

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Now issues in the cabinet, Boris

Johnson, the Foreign Secretary,

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accepts he could have been clearer

when he told the Foreign Affairs

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Committee that the British woman,

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, had been

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training journalists in Iran at the

time of her arrest. Those comments

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may risk her sentence being doubled

from five to ten years. Does he need

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to come to Parliament, stand up and

say he made a mistake and apologise?

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The most important thing is to get

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe released.

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This won't help.

Well actually,

Boris Johnson has been on the phone

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to hissist Iranian counter part,

talk about that. That is...

Because

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of the comments that could risk her

staying in jail longer.

He is trying

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to make sure that she is released.

That is the most important thing for

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the UK Government do.

No one

disputes that, should he apologise

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and retract the comments.

Boris will

appear at the House of Commons and

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we will have to see what he will

say.

Would you like him to say?

I

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would like him to say things about

the progress in getting Nazanin

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Zaghari-Ratcliffe released. That is

the most important thing is in this

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case.

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The most helpful thing and I will

say it again is to engage with the

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Arabian authorities, in this case

Boris Johnson with uranium Foreign

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Minister am talking about how we're

going to get Mrs Ratcliffe released.

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That's the most important thing.

Thank you.

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We're joined now for the rest

of the programme by the former Work

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and Pensions Secretary,

Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the programme.

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Welcome to the programme.

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Also here is the Shadow

International Trade Secretary,

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Barry Gardiner.

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Welcome to you two. We are going to

talk about trade and then I will

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talk to about some of the issues in

the let's talk about the trade deal

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I talked about at the beginning.

Doesn't this bill do what you want?

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You get to keep the trade deals

through EU membership whilst also

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leaving the EU?

Obviously, if we are

going to be leaving the EU, which we

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are, and taking back control of our

trade policy, we need to ensure that

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Parliament has the capacity to

properly scrutinise any trade

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agreements that we enter into. Now,

our concerns about this bill are

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around that scrutiny. I have said

that we will judge the bill on the

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basis of whether it insists upon a

full parliamentary debate and vote

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on the terms of any trade agreement,

whether there is a mandate set by

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Parliament for those negotiations,

whether there is full transparency

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about the text of the negotiations

and of the agreement. This is a

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Government which has a reputation,

not just a reputation but actually

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has actively tried to ensure that

Parliament does not have access and

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does not have full time is barren

sea to trade negotiations.

Would you

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have a problem with any of that,

Iain Duncan Smith?

The Government

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are very happy for Parliament to

have a vote but first of all that

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love an arrangement with EU to bring

before Parliament to say this is

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what we have agreed, them and us.

The EU also asked to go through a

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process of Parliament and about 27

other parliaments, so we got to get

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this done in time. What we can't

have, however, and I understand the

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opposition want to be in the

negotiations as well, but...

Some of

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your own side as well.

Agreed, but

you can't have 600 MPs basically at

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the negotiation table. The

Government has to get the best

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arrangement possible, come back to

the House of Commons, and Parliament

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can say whether they agree it's a

good deal or not. If they don't, you

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know, the EU could turn around and

say that's all that's on the table,

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I'm afraid.

He has misunderstood

what the trade bill is doing. The

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trade bill is not simply about the

negotiations with the EU, about...

I

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was only talking about that.

The

trade bill which is what Joel asked

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about is about how Parliament should

be scrutinised going forward with

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all its trade and investment

agreements. There we have some

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really significant concerns about

the level of consultation, the level

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of mandate and the scrutiny

available to Parliament. At the

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moment, we have an EU scrutiny

committee which Ian, as someone who

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has previously championed

Parliamentary democracy, will want

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to see that scrutiny committee

powers transferred to a new

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committee to oversee all

international trade agreements.

Are

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you happy for each and every trade

deal the UK does once it has left

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the EU, that that should be

scrutinised by Parliament?

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Absolutely right. That's what the

role of Parliament is and the

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structures are there already for it

to be done. I don't think there has

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to be a separate group. Is already a

select committee which looks at

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trade and I think the key thing is

to make sure that what happens is

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Parliament gets a chance to look in

detail what is happening... Each

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trade deal? Yes Parliament to have a

say.

I'm delighted he agrees. The

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problem is in the trade policy White

Paper the Government has set out, if

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you look at the bottom of page 28 on

that, it says we want to make

0:18:520:18:56

provision for a legislative

framework to enable future trade

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agreements to move quickly from

signing to implementation and

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ratification, which would appear to

want to bypass Parliament, as the

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Government did with the agreement

where I had to assist for ten months

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before we got a special secret room

set up for MPs to look at the text.

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You are being a bit overly harsh on

this. I understand why.

They did

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have to go to court to get Article

50 seen.

This issue is about what

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the Government wants. Jamaica trade

arrangement, you want to get that

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ratified as speedily as possible but

the question is, how you get it done

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is important that you make a trade

agreement. The former Parliament

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should be, the certain assumption

they also need to go about it as

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quickly as possible. Not

deliberately dragged their feet.

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That's the point of the whole bill,

which makes provision for that and

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you should not over read the idea

about speed. It's not a bad thing

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sometimes.

Should those 58

assessments on the effects of Brexit

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on British industry be released

today?

I've never had a problem with

0:20:040:20:08

the details of this being released

at all because my general view is

0:20:080:20:12

almost everything in there is

already in the public domain.

You

0:20:120:20:15

can look forward to those later on?

They have to share with a select

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committee.

Jo, that would be

wonderful but the Government has

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refused to allow those impact

assessments on the different

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sectors, how they will be affected

by Brexit, four months. We had to

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introduce a motion to Parliament

last Wednesday which had an arcane

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parliamentary procedure in it to

force the Government to reveal their

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hand. David Davis should release

those today. He should have done it.

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Months ago.

The way to do it is to

work out how the select committee

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can share that information.

The idea

is to go to Hilary Benn for this.

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Now let's move onto the other

story we've been talking

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about this morning -

that's the rebuke for

0:21:010:21:03

International Development Secretary,

Priti Patel, over meetings

0:21:030:21:05

with the Israeli government,

including Prime Minister,

0:21:050:21:06

Benjamin Nethanyahu,

whilst on holiday in the summer.

0:21:060:21:10

Last night her department was forced

to issue a clarification

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of comments she made last week.

0:21:130:21:14

On Friday 3rd November,

Priti Patel was quoted

0:21:140:21:16

in the Guardian newspaper

as follows:

0:21:160:21:21

However, in yesterday's statement,

the department conceeded:

0:21:280:21:31

In the Guardian article,

Ms Patel went on to say:

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But the statement from

the department said:

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Should she still be a Secretary of

State and a member of the British

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Government, Iain Duncan Smith?

Yes,

but the lesson to learn here is that

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if she has gone out and had these

other meetings, of course, the

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Foreign Office should have known

about them. It would have been

0:22:510:22:54

useful for her to be accompanied on

them but the reality now is, instead

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of dealing with one little bit of

it, a clearer statement should be

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made at the time but I don't think,

let's get this in perspective, this

0:23:020:23:06

is a friendly nation. We are not

meeting in secret over something.

0:23:060:23:11

What is the point of the ministerial

code?

What do you mean?

It stays

0:23:110:23:18

there should not be a conflict of

interest between business and

0:23:180:23:22

pleasure in this regard, that you

have to inform the relevant

0:23:220:23:25

authorities and any meetings with a

foreign power, Israel falling into

0:23:250:23:28

that category, and the Prime

Minister and the Foreign Secretary

0:23:280:23:33

didn't know that the International

Development Secretary was going to

0:23:330:23:36

meet the Prime Minister of Israel

and held a series of meetings to

0:23:360:23:40

which she has then had to clarify.

Did she lie when she put out her

0:23:400:23:44

first statement?

No, she's had these

meetings, I assume not meetings

0:23:440:23:50

originally scheduled and, having had

these meetings, she is then

0:23:500:23:53

informing Boris Johnson what

happened.

Is that in breach of the

0:23:530:23:59

ministerial code?

The code should be

interpreted as informing them in

0:23:590:24:06

advance but that's the whole point

of having yourself accompanied, but

0:24:060:24:13

they may not been planned as and

came later on. Most importantly,

0:24:130:24:18

though, the content of those

meetings is passed back to the

0:24:180:24:21

Foreign Office and the Government so

they are clear and aware of what was

0:24:210:24:25

talked about.

But they were not, and

this is about breaching important

0:24:250:24:31

protocol. She said Boris knew about

the visit. The Foreign Office did

0:24:310:24:35

know about this, Boris knew about

the trip. Why has she had to clarify

0:24:350:24:40

that?

Clearly he did not know in

advance.

But she said he did. Has

0:24:400:24:46

she lied?

I don't know what was in

her mind when she said it. As I

0:24:460:24:52

understand it, he was made aware of

it and what actually took place in

0:24:520:24:55

those meetings but not in advance.

Are you satisfied with that?

This

0:24:550:25:02

Government has a problem with

transparency and clarity. It is

0:25:020:25:05

clear she should have inform the

Foreign Secretary before she went

0:25:050:25:10

but you did not. There would appear

to be a breach of the ministerial

0:25:100:25:14

code and she has now misled the

Prime Minister and the Foreign

0:25:140:25:18

Secretary and the public. Of course

this must now be investigated. Iain

0:25:180:25:24

Duncan Smith says maybe they were

arranged while she was out there,

0:25:240:25:28

these visits, but the idea the Prime

Minister of any country just here to

0:25:280:25:34

happen to be visiting on holiday on

some beach somewhere and says why

0:25:340:25:37

not pop along frock off the? You

really do need to take this

0:25:370:25:41

seriously -- why not pop in for a

copy? Don't pretend to the public

0:25:410:25:50

that this is anything other than a

serious breach.

The Cabinet

0:25:500:25:53

Secretary will have looked at this

and decided as a result of the Prime

0:25:530:25:57

Minister's request as to whether or

not there has been a breach and

0:25:570:26:00

whether or not it create any

particular...

The Cabinet Secretary

0:26:000:26:04

needs to be asked to do that by the

Prime Minister. Excuse me. Let me

0:26:040:26:08

finish.

I did not interrupt you.

Let

Ian respond.

You are playing silly

0:26:080:26:18

games. What is ready important is

what was discussed at those meetings

0:26:180:26:23

and that information is passed to

the Government and the Government

0:26:230:26:26

therefore knows any obligations that

were made if they were official. The

0:26:260:26:30

answer is the Government knows about

this. It quite clear therefore, if

0:26:300:26:34

she had not informed them before,

that was incorrect. It's been

0:26:340:26:40

admitted and accepted and the Prime

Minister has reprimanded therefore

0:26:400:26:43

that.

You feel that is enough?

Yes,

because it's not a deliberate

0:26:430:26:50

attempt to subvert Government

policy.

Deliberately misusing the

0:26:500:26:54

code. We don't know yet, do we?

That's why we need an investigation.

0:26:540:27:00

You think Priti Patel is not done

enough to result in their

0:27:000:27:05

resignation or her sacking by the

Prime Minister although an

0:27:050:27:08

investigation will be taking place

into whether she has bridged the

0:27:080:27:11

ministerial code. Let's talk about

Boris Johnson. Do you think his

0:27:110:27:16

behaviour as Foreign Secretary is

acceptable when he makes mistakes

0:27:160:27:19

over the future of a British citizen

who was imprisoned in Iran by saying

0:27:190:27:25

she was out there doing something

she was not?

It's a complete error

0:27:250:27:29

as I understand it. I don't know why

he would've said that. I wasn't at

0:27:290:27:34

the meeting, and I've only read the

transcript of it. My genuine sense

0:27:340:27:39

is he recognises now that that was

an error of judgment.

He hasn't said

0:27:390:27:43

that. He said he would clarify his

comments and has not said it was a

0:27:430:27:47

mistake.

He's been clear he did not

intend to say what he said. I don't

0:27:470:27:51

know why you said it. Sometimes

briefings you get, which are

0:27:510:27:58

confused etc, may be he got

confused.

Is he up to the job if he

0:27:580:28:04

can make that sort of error when it

comes to the future of a British

0:28:040:28:08

citizen? This is a woman in jail who

went to visit her family, has been

0:28:080:28:14

imprisoned by the rainy authorities,

the story has had north a lot of

0:28:140:28:18

coverage, it's not as if Boris

Johnson wouldn't have known about

0:28:180:28:21

the detail. Should he have been

across the detail, otherwise he may

0:28:210:28:24

made comments which could result in

her imprisonment being doubled to

0:28:240:28:29

ten years -- it rainier in?

There's

never excuse not getting something

0:28:290:28:34

right. -- Iranians are.

0:28:340:28:35

His wife is being held and we want

are released fourth of the most

0:28:380:28:42

important feature of this is the

Government puts its resources behind

0:28:420:28:46

getting her released and not having

a sentence increased.

You sell

0:28:460:28:50

yourself, it's an error, these

things have not helped the situation

0:28:500:28:54

of this woman. Can he as Foreign

Secretary?

Yes, new speaking

0:28:540:28:58

directly to the Iranian

counterparts, and he wants to make

0:28:580:29:03

it clear to them that the UK

Government believes that she was out

0:29:030:29:07

of their not for any particular

purpose other than a holiday to see

0:29:070:29:12

family and that is why she should be

released right now. They have no

0:29:120:29:15

right to hold her.

Your Brexiteer

colleagues in the Cabinet seem to be

0:29:150:29:20

struggling with their positions.

No

more than anybody else. I do think

0:29:200:29:26

Brexit is anything to do with it,

only the fact that when Boris

0:29:260:29:30

Johnson made a statement about this,

he is very clear that this was not a

0:29:300:29:35

correct statement and he has tried

to get the Iranian 's, which he has

0:29:350:29:40

done, to explain that is not what

the Government's position is and he

0:29:400:29:44

has explained we want her released.

The most important thing is to get

0:29:440:29:47

released at once.

Barry Gardner?

UK

Foreign Secretary should have the

0:29:470:29:55

confidence and competence and

capacity to way their remarks

0:29:550:29:59

carefully judiciously. Boris Johnson

clearly does not. He should publicly

0:29:590:30:06

retract the remarks. He should

apologise for them. And I know very

0:30:060:30:11

well, as does Ian, what Lord

Carrington would've done in such

0:30:110:30:13

circumstances. He should resign.

0:30:130:30:19

Should he resign?

Yes.

Labour says

he should resign. What do you say.

0:30:190:30:26

Labour call for even to resign. They

want to cause mayhem.

Do you accept

0:30:260:30:33

Boris Johnson has form for this. Is

this the man you want running our

0:30:330:30:37

foreign policy?

There is a lot of

good things that Boris is doing and

0:30:370:30:41

a lot of good stuff about going

around the world getting a higher

0:30:410:30:46

profile for the UK and presenting

our case for leaving the EU. A lot

0:30:460:30:53

of Foreign Office officials say it

puts a new dimension into the job.

0:30:530:30:57

It is not as though in the last

Labour governments and Foreign

0:30:570:31:01

Secretaries and others haven't made

a mistake or said something they

0:31:010:31:04

shouldn't.

They retract it at the

dispatch box. He should do the same.

0:31:040:31:09

You called for him to resign

regardless of what he does. You need

0:31:090:31:14

to get your act together. If you

constantly call for someone to

0:31:140:31:19

resign every time, its you who loses

credibility, because you play games

0:31:190:31:25

over this lady's life. Her life is

very important and getting her back

0:31:250:31:29

is really important. That is the

focus of the Foreign Office and of

0:31:290:31:33

the Foreign Secretary. But calling

for him to resign just compounds the

0:31:330:31:38

issue in the eyes of Iranians. That

is a big mistake.

The best way to

0:31:380:31:44

help Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is

for him to retract these remarks

0:31:440:31:48

publicly. A private telephone

conversation to an Iranian minister,

0:31:480:31:56

this is a judicial process. A

private telephone conversation

0:31:560:32:00

cannot overturn that. He must

correct the record...

He will

0:32:000:32:04

stand... Hang on he will stand up in

Parliament in the next hour or so.

0:32:040:32:11

Thank you.

0:32:110:32:15

Now it's time for our daily quiz.

0:32:150:32:17

It turns out our guest of the day

has a rather unusual collection.

0:32:170:32:20

So our question for

today is, what is it?

0:32:200:32:22

Is it...

0:32:220:32:22

Stamps.

0:32:260:32:28

Wallpaper.

0:32:280:32:28

Comics.

0:32:280:32:30

Or Fossils

0:32:300:32:31

At the end of the show Iain

will give us the correct answer.

0:32:310:32:34

Now, beyond Boris Johnson's current

woes, his leadership

0:32:340:32:37

of the Foreign Office has come under

fire, including from

0:32:370:32:39

many in his own party.

0:32:390:32:43

The flamboyant Foreign Secretary's

tenure comes as Britain's foreign

0:32:430:32:46

policy is under increased scrutiny

as Brexit approaches

0:32:460:32:48

and he and Prime Minister

try to define Britain's place

0:32:480:32:50

in the world outside

the European Union.

0:32:500:32:56

This film contains some flash

photography.

This is called

0:32:560:33:01

diplomacy.

It is going well. It is

going well, John, thank you. I would

0:33:010:33:11

like to see demonstrations outside

the Russian Embassy against... Where

0:33:110:33:17

it the stop Stop the War coalition

at the moment? Where are they? The

0:33:170:33:29

relationship based on family,

kinship and common interests. In a

0:33:290:33:33

further sign of the importance of

that relationship I have been able

0:33:330:33:36

to convey the Queen's hope that

President Trump and the first lady

0:33:360:33:44

will visit the UK and the president

has accepted that invitation.

0:33:440:33:57

Good diplomacy involves talking to

all sorts of people...

Sounds like a

0:33:590:34:03

yes.

I'm not going to...

Are you

aware?

0:34:030:34:11

The defining purpose of the UN

charter is to maintain peace and

0:34:130:34:22

security and develop friendly

relationships among nations and

0:34:220:34:26

maintain co-operation in solving

problems.

0:34:260:34:37

And we're joined now by the man

who was the most senior civil

0:34:370:34:40

servant in the Foreign Office,

Simon Fraser.

0:34:400:34:42

He's now with the business advisors,

Flint Global and he's making

0:34:420:34:44

a speech today about Britain's place

in the world after Brexit.

0:34:440:34:48

Welcome to the programme. Do you

think Britain's foreign influence is

0:34:480:34:53

already diminished due to Brexit?

Yes, I think Brexit in the

0:34:530:34:58

short-term has created uncertainty

and has weakened our voice and there

0:34:580:35:02

are a number of examples. But the

real issue is that in the long-term

0:35:020:35:08

Brexit will affect I think our

structural position in the world and

0:35:080:35:12

I don't think we are thinking

seriously enough about that, our

0:35:120:35:17

relationships with Europe, with the

United States, how we are going to

0:35:170:35:22

operate in international

organisations.

How worried are you?

0:35:220:35:26

I'm worried in the sense that I

think the Government should focus on

0:35:260:35:30

it and it is important that we have

sort of well thought through,

0:35:300:35:35

realistic and not simplistic

approaches.

Do you agree Britain's

0:35:350:35:42

position in the world has already

been diminished? ?

No, I'm more

0:35:420:35:49

optimistic about this. Some people

can be pessimistic. I think it opens

0:35:490:35:54

us up to be able to make

arrangements and hold much closer

0:35:540:35:59

ties with various other important

count rips around the world. We will

0:35:590:36:03

be able to hold closer ties with

Japan and some of our common wealth

0:36:030:36:09

nations who welt we had left them

behind. What I do agree is, it is

0:36:090:36:14

important to review carefully who we

believe are our allies and friends

0:36:140:36:18

around the world and make it very

clear that we will establish strong

0:36:180:36:21

links with those and with the

European Union too. It is not about

0:36:210:36:26

leaving Europe. It is just leaving

the EU.

You say in your speech it is

0:36:260:36:31

of importance that we remain

committed to a co-operation of a

0:36:310:36:35

world. Why can't we do that outside

the EU?

Of course we can. I'm not

0:36:350:36:43

pessimistic, I'm realistic and I am

worried that people are being

0:36:430:36:48

simplistic. The important

relationships are with our fellow

0:36:480:36:52

western democracies in Europe and

United States and Japan and it is

0:36:520:36:56

important we don't weaken those

ties. Particularly given everything

0:36:560:37:02

else gone on such as the power of

China. We need to understand where

0:37:020:37:07

our core relationships lie.

You say

Britain has been poorly led and

0:37:070:37:13

those who argued for departure

offered naive visions of the future.

0:37:130:37:19

That will be you. Are you

simplistic.

No, I think the UK's

0:37:190:37:24

role has been diminished over the

years as a result of our membership

0:37:240:37:27

of the EU. I think that too often

much of the things we wanted to

0:37:270:37:32

do...

Like what?

We would have taken

a harder line on Russia and the EU

0:37:320:37:39

has wanted to do.

The question is

what would we have achieved.

We may

0:37:390:37:45

debate that, but we didn't pursue

what was in our interest.

We

0:37:450:37:51

mobilised the whole of the EU.

The

result is Russia had a conversation

0:37:510:37:57

with Germany and France, because

they would be easier on him. My

0:37:570:38:01

sense of this is we take to take

this in a different view. We have

0:38:010:38:08

been too Euro-centric and not

interested in other emerging

0:38:080:38:12

markets. I think our interests now

lie in establishing very strong

0:38:120:38:16

links with the developing nations,

particularly in the far east and

0:38:160:38:21

among the common wealth where, the

real markets lie and our influence

0:38:210:38:24

is lost.

But the markets, if I may,

the amount to 10% of our trade. The

0:38:240:38:36

EU and the country they have FTAs

are about 60% of our trade. We have

0:38:360:38:41

to keep the balance. And the other

point is about foreign policy. Those

0:38:410:38:46

are important relationships, but

they don't share our values and

0:38:460:38:49

approach to the world in the way the

countries I have mentioned do. I

0:38:490:38:52

don't know how keen you are on

socialism with Chinese

0:38:520:38:57

characteristics. My commitment to it

has its limits.

In terms of looking

0:38:570:39:03

ahead, do you think there is a case

of staying in the EU.

That has been

0:39:030:39:09

my view and I supported Remain. I

accepted the result of referendum,

0:39:090:39:15

we should pursue the best outcome F

the British people were to change

0:39:150:39:18

its mind, that is a matter for the

people. Now taking Russia and Syria,

0:39:180:39:28

what do you think we did being part

of EU that was better than if we had

0:39:280:39:32

been on our own? The point is and I

fully accept Iain Duncan Smith's

0:39:320:39:36

points that if you're free you can

say what you want and have a clear

0:39:360:39:41

position and have more freedom. But

the question is what effect can you

0:39:410:39:44

have in the world? When we adopt

sanctions on Syria or Russia, with

0:39:440:39:49

the EU, we are mobilising the

biggest market in the world. And

0:39:490:39:53

when we align that with the United

States we have a tremendous impact.

0:39:530:39:58

The UK alone would be less able to

leverage either of those powers.

Do

0:39:580:40:06

you accept that?

No, because that

assumes that pause we are leaving

0:40:060:40:11

the EU all of a sudden our

relationships with them in terms of

0:40:110:40:15

our interests.

But it is part of a

bloc.

The answer is that we are part

0:40:150:40:22

of that process. But we are not

dictated to by it. I think the same

0:40:220:40:26

goes with the United States. I think

that our involve Westminster the

0:40:260:40:30

United States could have been

stronger, I think when we look at

0:40:300:40:36

the Russia situation, rush is Russia

is a threat and it is a growing

0:40:360:40:43

threat and then it is emboldened in

Syria and defying what was meant to

0:40:430:40:48

be a European and American policy,

we have been made to look foolish as

0:40:480:40:52

a collective group. I don't hold a

massive amount of strength of view

0:40:520:40:57

that somehow being part of the EU

made us stronger in foreign policy.

0:40:570:41:02

I think the key thing is for us to

get them in the right direction, but

0:41:020:41:06

I think we can do better.

We will be

less able to do that if we're not in

0:41:060:41:12

the meetings. The idea we should

have permanent observer status in

0:41:120:41:17

the meetings of EU, won't give us

the ability to influence. We be more

0:41:170:41:23

dictated to.

We will be in a

position to say no.

How do you feel

0:41:230:41:29

as head of for office, if you were

if the International Development

0:41:290:41:37

Secretary has free lanced in

Israeli, including a meeting with

0:41:370:41:41

Prime Minister without telling you.

I wouldn't be happy. I think it is

0:41:410:41:47

important there is coherence and a

joined up approach, particularly

0:41:470:41:53

with countries like Israel. I share

the view that this was not the

0:41:530:41:56

correct way toff going about it.

How

big a breach is it?

I'm not an

0:41:560:42:01

expert on the ministerial code. From

my perspective I think is not a good

0:42:010:42:09

way of conducting diplomacy.

And

with the case of Boris Johnson and

0:42:090:42:12

the case of Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe, do you think it

0:42:120:42:14

is enough for him to say he has

clarified his comments?

I think what

0:42:140:42:19

this incident shows is the

importance in diplomacy of prosigs

0:42:190:42:24

and attention -- precision and

attention to detail. That is true

0:42:240:42:28

with a country like Iran, where

every word is scrutiny ised and

0:42:280:42:37

individuals can be caught up. It is

a shame that this lapse happened. It

0:42:370:42:41

needs to be clarified and effort put

into rectifying any consequences.

0:42:410:42:46

Thank you.

0:42:460:42:54

Tomorrow is the first anniversary

of Donald Trump's election

0:42:540:42:56

as President of the United States

and it's been quite a year for both

0:42:560:42:59

America's friends and enemies alike.

0:42:590:43:01

Mr Trump is currently on a tour

of Asia and is in Seoul

0:43:010:43:04

in South Korea visiting his

counterpart Moon Jae-in.

0:43:040:43:06

North Korea's nuclear programme

is understandably top of the list

0:43:060:43:08

of their discussions,

and this is what the President had

0:43:080:43:11

to say a few hours ago.

0:43:110:43:13

I believe it makes sense

for North Korea to do the right

0:43:130:43:19

thing, not only for North Korea

but for humanity all over the world,

0:43:190:43:24

so there is lots of reason,

a lot of good reason behind it.

0:43:240:43:29

With that, yes, I think we're

making a lot of progress.

0:43:290:43:32

I think we're showing

great strength.

0:43:320:43:33

I think they understand we have

unparalleled strength.

0:43:330:43:35

There has never been

strength like it.

0:43:350:43:38

You know, we sent three

of the largest aircraft

0:43:380:43:41

carriers in the world

and they are right now positioned.

0:43:410:43:44

We have a nuclear

submarine also positioned.

0:43:440:43:48

We have many things happening

that we hope, we hope,

0:43:480:43:54

in fact I go a step further,

we hope to God,

0:43:540:43:56

we never have to use.

0:43:560:43:59

With that being said,

I really believe that it makes sense

0:43:590:44:04

for North Korea to come to the table

and to make a deal that's good

0:44:040:44:11

for the people of North Korea

and the people of the world.

0:44:110:44:15

We're joined now by James Fallows,

the London Bureau Chief

0:44:150:44:18

of the Atlantic magazine.

0:44:180:44:24

How has Donald Trump done in his

first year? He's done pretty much

0:44:240:44:28

what you'd expect from this campaign

which is he's been out of scale of

0:44:280:44:31

any previous office. He's invented

new things. The people who like him

0:44:310:44:40

still like him, but in terms of

support he is off the scale, lower

0:44:400:44:45

approval ratings than anybody else.

We always held politicians account

0:44:450:44:49

what they stated in their

manifestos. In that sense, you

0:44:490:44:53

broadly think he has succeeded?

I

think he has been a logical

0:44:530:44:59

extrapolation of the personality he

was on the campaign platform. I

0:44:590:45:03

distinguish that the programmes

where every day there's a new policy

0:45:030:45:06

position but the person he was at

those big rallies is the person he

0:45:060:45:10

is throughout the world.

Which

achievements would you pick out?

0:45:100:45:16

That is a tough question.

Any?

The

Republicans refused to confirm

0:45:160:45:25

Barack Obama's nomination. That's

the biggest thing.

I don't think I

0:45:250:45:29

can never remember such a big clear

out of staff from the administration

0:45:290:45:35

as we have seen under Donald Trump.

I think most of the ambassadorships

0:45:350:45:40

around the world are vacant. The

assistant secretaries of State, the

0:45:400:45:45

real action people to get things

done, there's not even a nominee for

0:45:450:45:48

them. It's not that Trump has had

fewer people confirmed, he has

0:45:480:45:55

nominated fewer people, so there has

been a clearing out as they normally

0:45:550:45:58

is but no refreshing with new Apple

keys.

In terms of the staff lost,

0:45:580:46:05

the scandals, that has been quite a

turnover. -- new applicants. How is

0:46:050:46:18

the Republican party dealing with

Donald Trump because that was so

0:46:180:46:21

much talk at the beginning that they

were going to go along with this and

0:46:210:46:24

didn't have any choice, but as time

had gone on, there was more shock

0:46:240:46:29

from their site about some of the

things he was doing. Is that really

0:46:290:46:33

true?

Yes it's hard to appreciate. I

once worked for Jimmy Carter as his

0:46:330:46:42

speech writer for two years ago.

There's never been an experience

0:46:420:46:45

when members of his own party will

speak about him in such contemptuous

0:46:450:46:49

and dismissive ways as long as you

don't quote me, and as long as they

0:46:490:46:54

still plan to run for office, so

they are torn between the

0:46:540:46:57

recognition they have the kind of

person he is, but there is awareness

0:46:570:47:02

of how we can mobilise against them.

You won't be quoting them in future?

0:47:020:47:08

No, when they decide not to run,

suddenly they say this is a big

0:47:080:47:14

problem but until then, not.

Something close to your heart is

0:47:140:47:20

Brexit. Of course, there's great

hope there will be a trade deal and

0:47:200:47:23

a trade deal done quickly, certainly

on the Government's side. What is

0:47:230:47:28

your view on that?

I think it is

remarkable how much difficulty

0:47:280:47:36

Donald Trump has had getting any of

his agenda done. The health care

0:47:360:47:40

repeal for example, you didn't get

through. The tax cuts probably won't

0:47:400:47:43

go through. He requires positive

action rather than blocking

0:47:430:47:50

something Barack Obama did, the odds

would be against him.

It does not

0:47:500:47:53

bode well, does it?

I was over in

Washington about April May, and I

0:47:530:48:01

had meetings with a very large

number of senators, including the

0:48:010:48:07

Speaker of the House, and what I

found from all of them was every one

0:48:070:48:12

of them wanted to ensure that we

moved swiftly to a trade arrangement

0:48:120:48:17

and more than that there's been

three or four pieces of legislation

0:48:170:48:21

already gone through both houses

paving the way for that, so it isn't

0:48:210:48:25

actually down to him alone. The

truth is, the mood is to do this and

0:48:250:48:31

from Democrats as well, so the

reality is, whether or not Mr Trump

0:48:310:48:35

is for or against it,... Some of the

things you try to do have been his

0:48:350:48:42

own pet project and he's not have

the support around him.

With Brexit,

0:48:420:48:46

bloodied different?

People want to

get this through. The problem is

0:48:460:48:55

there's a hundred things Congress

should do and their minds are

0:48:550:49:00

concentrated now on the tax bill and

if they can have vote on this, can

0:49:000:49:05

it ever come up for consideration?

What about that trip by Donald Trump

0:49:050:49:13

to the UK?

Well, good luck to us

all.

0:49:130:49:19

LAUGHTER

And on that note, do come on a game.

0:49:190:49:23

Thank you very much.

0:49:230:49:29

Just an update on those

Brexit Impact statements

0:49:290:49:31

we were talking about.

0:49:310:49:32

While we have been on air Brexit

minister Steve Baker has told

0:49:320:49:36

the Commons that it will take

government some time to collate

0:49:360:49:39

and bring together this information

in a way that is accessible

0:49:390:49:42

and informative to the committee.

0:49:420:49:43

We will provide this information

to the committee as soon

0:49:430:49:47

as it is possible.

0:49:470:49:49

We currently expect this to be no

0:49:490:49:51

more than three weeks.

0:49:510:49:52

So briefly, a delay.

It's an

acceptance they will do it and I was

0:49:520:49:57

one of those that said just get on

and do it and I think this is what

0:49:570:50:02

is happening so it's the right thing

to do. I think we are in the best

0:50:020:50:05

position now.

All right.

0:50:050:50:09

Now, it's not been a great few

weeks for politicians,

0:50:090:50:12

of the human species at least.

0:50:120:50:13

So could chimpanzees and other

primates do a better job?

0:50:130:50:18

We ask all the big questions on this

programme.

0:50:180:50:20

We ask all the big questions

on this programme.

0:50:200:50:22

In a moment I'll be talking

to a professor of politics

0:50:220:50:25

who reckons chimps demonstrate

many of the same political

0:50:250:50:27

instincts as we do.

0:50:270:50:28

First here's primatologist,

Frans de Waal, on the chimp

0:50:280:50:30

equivalent of kissing babies.

0:50:300:50:32

They are literally kissing babies,

a bit like the human politicians

0:50:320:50:34

who hold up babies high in the air

and the male chimpanzees,

0:50:340:50:37

they go around tickling babies

and making clear to the females

0:50:370:50:40

that they are good with

babies and they can be

0:50:400:50:42

trusted in that regard.

0:50:420:50:43

Another thing that they do

is they try to collect food

0:50:430:50:46

and share it with everyone.

0:50:460:50:47

For example, Arnhem Zoo

where I used to work,

0:50:470:50:49

the males would try to get

into the live oak trees,

0:50:490:50:52

which is very difficult

because they are surrounded

0:50:520:50:54

by electric wire, and if they would

get in there they would break off

0:50:540:50:58

a lot of branches and spread them

around and everyone

0:50:580:51:00

would have food to eat.

0:51:000:51:02

In the wild, they may

try to appropriate meat that has

0:51:020:51:04

been hunted by other males and then

divide it and give it

0:51:040:51:07

to their supporters.

0:51:070:51:12

We're joined now by the Political

scientist, James Tilley,

0:51:120:51:14

who presented that programme,

Primate Politics,

0:51:140:51:15

on Radio 4 last night.

0:51:150:51:22

Welcome to the Daily Politics. The

conclusion of your rather

0:51:220:51:28

fascinating programme is our

political systems are similar to

0:51:280:51:31

that of our ape cousins?

To some

extent, yes. Chimpanzees live in

0:51:310:51:37

these big social groups, 50-100

individuals. There is a hierarchy,

0:51:370:51:41

leaders, drawn from a small pool of

chimpanzees and they change every

0:51:410:51:46

few years, so in the basic sense

there's politics happening there.

0:51:460:51:52

What's interesting is how we see it

in human society to an extent so the

0:51:520:51:57

politics of chimpanzee groups is

about manoeuvrings and a few

0:51:570:52:00

chimpanzees within these groups, in

order to become leader, there's two

0:52:000:52:03

ways to do that, they form

coalitions with one another, to try

0:52:030:52:07

to get the top job, and of course

that's very much like politicians

0:52:070:52:12

within parties getting together to

assume power. They also tried to

0:52:120:52:17

appeal to other chimpanzees within

the group which is very similar to

0:52:170:52:20

getting support from voters for your

proposed leadership.

So can you see

0:52:200:52:26

the similarity, Iain Duncan Smith,?

We are social animals. If you looked

0:52:260:52:38

at gorillas, it would be the same

thing for form social groups, have

0:52:380:52:40

leaders, and I think we are social

animals and I thought some of the

0:52:400:52:48

pictures thrashing around with a

stick, looked a bit like my

0:52:480:52:51

colleagues. Anyone in particular?

No.

Do they do it better than our

0:52:510:52:59

politicians?

The social intelligence

of chimpanzees are better than

0:52:590:53:05

humans, some would argue, and they

spend more time putting together

0:53:050:53:10

coalitions and perceiving one

another, so in some senses, as

0:53:100:53:14

politicians within groups, they are

better at it than humans.

This idea

0:53:140:53:18

of redistribution as part of human

and eight political organisations,

0:53:180:53:21

why?

It is the standard, how do you

get support? You can be liked or you

0:53:210:53:28

can buy it and chimpanzees tried to

do both, so being liked, they go

0:53:280:53:33

around kissing babies, and proving

that they are likeable characters,

0:53:330:53:36

just like human politicians do, but

they are also very keen on buying

0:53:360:53:42

support. The way you do that is

essentially you tax everybody and

0:53:420:53:47

redistribute those resources to the

people you want support from.

0:53:470:53:51

Chimpanzees do the same thing. This

chimpanzee leader in the clip

0:53:510:53:58

managed to sustain his leadership

for an enormous amounts of time and

0:53:580:54:01

what he did was they would go out

and hunt, he would steal all the

0:54:010:54:06

meat from the other hunters and give

it out only to his supporters which

0:54:060:54:10

is essentially what politicians do.

They give them back their own money.

0:54:100:54:17

That is what you do, Iain Duncan

Smith?

The kissing babies thing has

0:54:170:54:22

stop because of health and safety.

They don't have health and safety in

0:54:220:54:26

the chimpanzee world.

Not yet. I

wonder who was imitating whom?

I

0:54:260:54:32

hope they don't go down that road.

There is a system of patronage and

0:54:320:54:37

succession.

Yes, you also see other

Machiavellian strategies, divide and

0:54:370:54:43

rule, a common strategy, powers

behind the throne are very common,

0:54:430:54:47

so you often see a kind of older

male chimpanzee pushing forward a

0:54:470:54:53

younger leader, but really he's

pulling the strings on what actually

0:54:530:54:56

going on which is also what you

often see in Parliamentary

0:54:560:54:59

democracies with leaders who are

sometimes not actually powerful

0:54:590:55:04

themselves, but there are big

characters behind them.

Maybe you

0:55:040:55:10

should spend time with chimpanzees

in the wild and see what could be

0:55:100:55:13

learned?

Listen, my colleagues spend

enough time with each other. The

0:55:130:55:19

editing which frightens me now is

the Planet Of The Apes story, coming

0:55:190:55:23

up.

Now we are moving into fiction,

of course.

Really?

What drives

0:55:230:55:32

political ambition in male apes?

The

same kind of drive for dominance you

0:55:320:55:37

see in humans. It's not a

realisation you are going to get

0:55:370:55:46

success and more food, it's just you

want to be in charge just like some

0:55:460:55:49

humans want to be in charge and they

pretend to be the kind of people to

0:55:490:55:53

do that.

Thank you so much for

coming in. Fascinating.

0:55:530:55:56

And if want to hear the whole

of James's programme,

0:55:560:55:58

Primate Politics, it's available

on the BBC iPlayer and is repeated

0:55:580:56:01

on Radio 4 on Sunday at 9.30pm.

0:56:010:56:03

I know Iain Duncan Smith will put

this in his diary.

0:56:030:56:05

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:56:050:56:09

The question was, what does our

guest of the day collect?

0:56:090:56:11

Was it: Stamps?

0:56:110:56:12

Wallpaper?

0:56:120:56:13

Comics?

0:56:130:56:14

Or Fossils?

0:56:140:56:19

The correct answer is? The wallpaper

samples in my office.

0:56:190:56:25

Here's Ellie to explain.

0:56:250:56:26

Now we all know that things

in the House of Commons are not

0:56:260:56:29

always what they seem.

0:56:290:56:30

Hello, Iain Duncan Smith.

0:56:300:56:31

Hello.

0:56:310:56:32

Now these aren't

cupboards, are they?

0:56:320:56:33

Well, they're cupboards,

but they're not what they seem,

0:56:330:56:36

exactly, so why don't I show you?

0:56:360:56:37

They are really false cupboards

but false cupboards for a reason.

0:56:370:56:40

For example, here we have

inside here what I suppose

0:56:400:56:45

are the swatches I think you might

call them for the wallpaper

0:56:450:56:48

around various parts

of the Lords and of the Commons.

0:56:480:56:54

And that all rather

begs the question why?

0:57:020:57:06

This office used to be a thing

called the clerk of Works Office

0:57:060:57:09

and these walls were obviously

slightly fuller and they have

0:57:090:57:12

all these wallpaper patterns

with numbers and the numbers

0:57:120:57:14

were the reference numbers so that

if they needed more wallpaper

0:57:140:57:18

they could go and get it done.

0:57:180:57:20

And all of these wallpapers,

I'm told, I'm no expert on this,

0:57:200:57:23

have to be hand blocked.

0:57:230:57:25

These aren't rolls of wallpaper

you can go and buy at Homebase then?

0:57:250:57:28

You know what, you can search

but I don't think you'll ever find

0:57:280:57:31

this in Homebase at all.

0:57:310:57:33

The reality is it's very,

very expensive wallpaper

0:57:330:57:35

because it's all one-off,

so this would be one room.

0:57:350:57:40

And do you show off to people

when they come into your offices?

0:57:400:57:43

It depends who they are.

0:57:430:57:45

If I think it's necessary for me

to smooth them over a wee bit,

0:57:450:57:49

and they are looking a little bit

uneasy, I say.

0:57:490:57:51

"Would you like to see

something really unusual?"

0:57:510:57:54

There's often a hesitation

at that point as I reveal,

0:57:540:57:56

but the reveal is the cupboards

and that's exactly what happens.

0:57:560:58:05

It always tends to work actually

because it immediately brings, "Oh,

0:58:050:58:07

my God, what's that all about?"

0:58:070:58:13

Iain Duncan Smith, are you really an

expert on wallpaper?

No. The office

0:58:130:58:18

I occupied was many years ago a

thing called the clerk of works, one

0:58:180:58:26

of these titles which have

disappeared in the mists of times

0:58:260:58:28

and they kept their wallpaper

samples there and they would check

0:58:280:58:31

the number on it and then shut it

down for that I think it is all now

0:58:310:58:35

on computer. I don't think they are

ever really used. They are a talking

0:58:350:58:39

point.

So it's not your personal

collection clearly?

I know nothing

0:58:390:58:45

about wallpaper at all but I just

happen to know these are in my room.

0:58:450:58:48

Thank you for clarifying that.

0:58:480:58:51

The One O'Clock Mews is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:510:58:53

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:530:58:55

That's all for today.

0:58:550:58:56

Bye bye.

0:58:560:58:59

For these children,

life can be challenging.

0:59:030:59:05

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