Browse content similar to 16/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
As the deadline looms, negotiations
over a Brexit deal grind on, | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
with the EU demanding more progress
on the terms of Britain leaving | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
before allowing talks on trade,
we'll speak to the Vice President | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
of the European Parliament. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:53 | |
Theresa May has said building more
homes is her 'personal mission', | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
so how will the Government find
the money and will they be prepared | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
to take on local opposition? | 0:00:58 | 0:01:04 | |
Labour is demanding an emergency
budget to fund a public sector pay | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
rise, provide more money
for infrastructure, and increase | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
spending on public services. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:10 | |
We'll ask a member of their Treasury
team where the cash will come from. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:18 | |
And forget left and right
in politics, there's a new fault | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
line between the somewheres
and the anywheres, find out | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
which side you're on. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
All that in the next hour,
and with us for the whole | 0:01:32 | 0:01:34 | |
of the programme today,
the author and commentator | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
David Goodhart. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:37 | |
He works for the think-tank
Policy Exchange, and is the author | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
of the Road to Somewhere,
more of which later. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
Welcome to the show. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:46 | |
First this morning, universal credit
is back on the agenda after reports | 0:01:46 | 0:01:51 | |
in the press that the Government
was preparing to cut the length | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
of time claimants have to wait
before they receive payments. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
It's currently six weeks,
but Theresa May has come under a lot | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
of pressure to reduce the time,
including from some of her own MPs. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:04 | |
Yesterday, during PMQs,
Jeremy Corbyn yet again attacked | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
Mrs May over the benefit. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
Will the Prime Minister pause
Universal Credit so it can be fixed? | 0:02:09 | 0:02:14 | |
Or does she think it is right to put
thousands of families | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
through Christmas in the trauma
of knowing they're about to be | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
evicted, because they're in rent
arrears, because of Universal | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
Credit? | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
SPEAKER: Prime Minister. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:34 | |
Can I say to the right honourable
gentleman that there have | 0:02:34 | 0:02:36 | |
been concerns raised,
there have been concerns raised | 0:02:36 | 0:02:39 | |
in this House previously
over the issue of people | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
managing their budgets to pay rent. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
But what we actually see... | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
What we see is that over... | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
We see that after four months,
the number of people | 0:02:51 | 0:02:53 | |
on Universal Credit in arrears has
fallen by a third. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:59 | |
Has the Government response on
Universal Credit been adequate? I | 0:02:59 | 0:03:04 | |
don't think we've heard the full
response so far, and I think we are | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
told we will hear something in the
budget about this. Pretty well | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
everybody agrees that the principles
behind it are good ones, bringing | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
together lots of different benefits,
simplifying, helping to reduce a | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
little bit the cliff edges, those
huge poverty traps that a lot of | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
people suffer from. The problem is
implementation, and it always is. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
Tax credits was the same problem,
going back to Labour in power. You | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
get the feeling that the people who
design these benefits are not | 0:03:34 | 0:03:39 | |
experience the understanding the
experience of the people who claim | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
them. The critics said that people
who work on benefits do not work on | 0:03:41 | 0:03:46 | |
a monthly or six weekly cycle, and
lots of people have been forced into | 0:03:46 | 0:03:52 | |
arrears or forced to go to the
banks. If the Government says it | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
will shorten the waiting time from
six weeks to five weeks, possibly to | 0:03:55 | 0:03:59 | |
a month, will that be enough to
answer and deal with real problems | 0:03:59 | 0:04:05 | |
are suffering? I don't know, I'm not
an expert. The amount of money in | 0:04:05 | 0:04:12 | |
the whole system has been
substantially reduced over recent | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
years. George Osborne used it as a
cash cow, so putting more money in | 0:04:16 | 0:04:20 | |
will surely help. You would like to
see the amounts go up as well as the | 0:04:20 | 0:04:25 | |
waiting time brought down to help
people who are on this benefit? | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
Absolutely. Otherwise, you think the
policy's success has been put at | 0:04:29 | 0:04:35 | |
risk by the Government dragging its
feet, as critics say, other not | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
doing anything about the
fermentation? I think it is starting | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
to do something about it. The
Government has already moved on | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
paying for the phone call and a help
line and so on. These are minor | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
adjustments that surely can be made,
but I think that putting more money | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
into the pot is the major priority. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
Now, it's time for our daily quiz. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
The question for today is,
which senior minister - | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
according to The Times -
has apparently been | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
showing off in Cabinet,
using lots of technical terms | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
and "long, economicky words" to
audition for the role of Chancellor? | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
Was it a) Andrea Leadsom
audition for the role of Chancellor? | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
Was it a) Andrea Leadsom
c) Liam Fox or d) | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
Was it a) Andrea Leadsom
or d) | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
Gavin Williamson? | 0:05:20 | 0:05:21 | |
At the end of the show,
David will give us | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
the correct answer. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:25 | |
We've heard a lot about
the arguments surrounding the EU | 0:05:25 | 0:05:27 | |
withdrawal bill being scrutinised
in the Commons over the last few | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
days, but where are we with
the actual negotiations | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
between the Britain and the EU? | 0:05:32 | 0:05:34 | |
The European Union
has three red lines - | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
a financial settlement,
citizens' rights and | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
the Northern Irish border -
that have to be resolved before | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
talks can progress on the UK's
final status deal. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:49 | |
At the last round of negotiations
earlier this month, the EU gave | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
the UK a two-week deadline
to clarify key issues and for talks | 0:05:52 | 0:05:57 | |
to progress. | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
Both sides agreed there had been
progress on the issue | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
of settled status for EU citizens
in the UK after Brexit. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
On the financial settlement,
the EU still wants clarity | 0:06:04 | 0:06:06 | |
from the UK in terms of what it's
willing to pay to meet financial | 0:06:06 | 0:06:11 | |
commitments made as a member. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:15 | |
The UK has said it "will honour | 0:06:15 | 0:06:16 | |
commitments" but has not specified
whether that includes unpaid | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
liabilities for projects,
or if that will cover pensions. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:24 | |
The issue of the Irish border
between Northern Ireland and Ireland | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
remains a serious challenge,
both sides say, with "frank | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
discussions" continuing. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:32 | |
David Davis has rejected suggestions
that Northern Ireland | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
could have a separate status
from the rest of the UK and remain | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
within the European customs union. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:43 | |
He wants to "prevent a hard border"
and told House of Commons | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
in September he was confident
the use of technology "will make it | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
possible for the border to be
as light-touch as it is today." | 0:06:49 | 0:06:54 | |
The UK's Brexit Secretary has played
down the two-week deadline, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
saying the key date
is the December European | 0:06:56 | 0:06:58 | |
Council, on the 14th. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:04 | |
Let's get more on this
with Adam Fleming, who is at his | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
favourite haunt in Brussels,
the European Parliament. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:13 | |
I was listening to the MEP Manfred
Weber yesterday. He was here, and a | 0:07:13 | 0:07:19 | |
close colleague of Angela Merkel,
and he seemed to think that the mood | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
was more optimistic, that he felt
that the conversation was positive | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
with Theresa May, but still no green
light. What is the mood in Brussels? | 0:07:25 | 0:07:31 | |
Manfred Weber was interesting, as
you were saying, because he because | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
he said he had been given the
impression that the UK was prepared | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
to make some movement towards the
EU, in other words, to secure | 0:07:38 | 0:07:46 | |
sufficient progress at the next
summit in December so that phase two | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
of the Brexit talks can begin, to
discuss trade, the relationship and | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
the transition deal. Everyone
wondered what the Prime Minister | 0:07:52 | 0:07:54 | |
said to him. The big theory at the
moment is that it was probably to do | 0:07:54 | 0:07:59 | |
with citizens' rights, because that
is the European Parliament's main | 0:07:59 | 0:08:05 | |
priority for the Brexit
negotiations. They are less | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
concerned about the money and the
Northern Irish border than they are | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
about peoples lives after Brexit. I
saw him do a conference the day | 0:08:11 | 0:08:18 | |
before in Strasbourg where he said
he was pessimistic and didn't think | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
that sufficient progress would be
made. Obviously, Theresa May said | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
something to him which made him
change his mind and feel more | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
chipper about how the process was
going. Do you think, and is the | 0:08:28 | 0:08:38 | |
impression in Brussels, that it will
be enough to unlock these | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
negotiations or the stalemate and
move on to trade talks at that | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
critical meeting in December?
Everyone here is waiting for some | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
sort of smoke signal, hint, lying in
a speech, paragraph in a written | 0:08:49 | 0:08:55 | |
ministerial statement, an answer in
an interview with David Davis or the | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
Prime Minister that gives more
detail about what the UK meant when | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
the Prime Minister said in her
Florence speech a couple of months | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
ago that the UK would live up to its
financial obligations. The Brits | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
thought that was enough to get them
over the line and get into phase two | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
of the talks, but for the EU side,
that was not enough. They welcomed | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
the warm words and the sentiments
that the UK would live up to its | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
obligations made as a member, but
they want more detail, specific | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
commitments being made to specific
things they have asked for in the | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
discussions over the so-called
financial settlement, or the Brexit | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
Bill, as it is known in the press.
That is what everyone is waiting | 0:09:34 | 0:09:39 | |
for. And then we come back to this
issue of the Michel Barnier deadline | 0:09:39 | 0:09:43 | |
that he has issued. He said last
Friday that he wanted that detail to | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
be given in the next two weeks. The
reason he said that was because of | 0:09:46 | 0:09:51 | |
the admin processes that the EU 27
going, that to be able to start and | 0:09:51 | 0:10:02 | |
trigger the talks in December, they
need a bit more information on the | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
UK in the next couple of weeks so
they control what documents and have | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
their talks with the 27 capitals.
The content they want is more | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
information about the money. Adam,
in Brussels, no doubt we will speak | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
soon. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:18 | |
Earlier this morning,
I spoke to the Irish | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
MEP and Vice President
of the European Parliament Mairead | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
McGuinness, and I began
by asking her whether we should be | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
optimistic about possible progress
in the Brexit negotiations. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:27 | |
It's positive what my group leader
Manfred Weber has said, | 0:10:27 | 0:10:29 | |
and I think that's welcome if he's
getting an indication that the UK | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
and that Prime Minister May may be
moving to unlock this problem | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
at the moment. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:40 | |
You can't have a green light now,
because the negotiations have not | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
moved on on the three core issues,
so I think that it's | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
quite consistent. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:47 | |
I'm a bit more hopeful today
as I speak to you than I might | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
have been 24 hours ago. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:51 | |
But then that has been the way these
negotiations have developed. | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
There are some weeks
where you think yes, | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
we're getting there,
and then there are other weeks, | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
mainly because of the mood music
in the United Kingdom, | 0:10:58 | 0:11:00 | |
where we feel quite the opposite
and we get quite concerned, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
but in fact we aren't making
sufficient progress | 0:11:03 | 0:11:13 | |
--that in fact we aren't
making sufficient progress | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
on the core issues. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:16 | |
But it's not a one-way street,
is it, Mairead McGuinness? | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
And as you have now reiterated
Manfred Weber's comments that | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
you feel there is movement on the UK
side, what is the European Union | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
offering in this negotiation
if there's been movement | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
from the UK? | 0:11:26 | 0:11:27 | |
Well, I think you're quite right,
nobody has ever said this | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
was a one-way street. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:31 | |
What it is is a divorce settlement. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
The United Kingdom democratically
have decided to leave | 0:11:33 | 0:11:35 | |
the European Union. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:36 | |
There are three issues for phase one
in the divorce settlement, | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
including financial commitments,
citizens' rights, and the border | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
issue, which is very
core to my constituency. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
And I think on many of these issues
the European Union has been | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
absolutely clear on what it needs
to see happen, and we do need | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
the content of the Prime Minister's
speech in Florence, | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
which we all welcomed,
to be put into concrete | 0:11:52 | 0:11:54 | |
proposals on the table. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
And then I think there
is room for negotiation, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:58 | |
because Michel Barnier,
who leads the negotiations on behalf | 0:11:58 | 0:12:02 | |
of the European Union,
is a very able individual | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
and he wants to make progress. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
I think David Davis comes
with the same commitment. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:10 | |
But clearly there is some problem,
and I have to repeat my concern | 0:12:10 | 0:12:16 | |
that it appears to come from,
if you like, difficulties | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
within the Conservative Party. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
I see front-page headlines
targeting individual MPs, | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
and this doesn't help the process
of progress that we all want to see. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
Let's talk about the Irish border. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:29 | |
As you say, very important
to you particularly. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
To avoid a hard border,
which all sides want, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
the European Commission has proposed
Northern Ireland having a separate | 0:12:35 | 0:12:37 | |
status from the rest of the UK
and remaining in the customs union. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
That's been ruled out
by the UK Government. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
What other solution do you have? | 0:12:42 | 0:12:48 | |
Well, I've been very clear,
and I've said this to Secretary | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
of State Brokenshire recently,
and I'm saying it again, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
that if we want the situation
on the island of Ireland to remain | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
as it is today, without any
borders or difficulties, | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
then we stay as we are today. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:04 | |
By that I mean that we respect
the decision of the United Kingdom | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
to leave the European Union,
but that the United Kingdom | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
stays in the customs
union and single market. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:11 | |
So that, if you like,
avoids any complexities looking | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
for technical solutions,
because I've tried to | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
make this very clear... | 0:13:17 | 0:13:19 | |
But that's been ruled
out, hasn't it? | 0:13:19 | 0:13:21 | |
But with the greatest of respect
to red lines and ruling out, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:25 | |
this is a much bigger issue. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:27 | |
This is about the peace process
in the country I come from. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
This will affect very badly
the constituents that I serve. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
They are deeply traumatised
by the prospect of a hard Brexit. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
Why is having a border so important
to you in terms of customs? | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
I'm sorry, I think I
misunderstood your question. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
We do not want a border,
it's very clear that if there's any | 0:13:44 | 0:13:50 | |
idea of a break in the current
relationships or freedoms that exist | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
on the island of Ireland today,
it will cause problems. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:58 | |
And if you come to my region,
I welcome you to come and be | 0:13:58 | 0:14:02 | |
with me in the region,
you will see posters, | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
you will hear people
talking with deep concern. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:09 | |
I met young people in Newry
from North and South just last | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
Friday, listen to their voices,
they know the problems | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
they will face if this goes wrong. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
So, again, I welcome
the idea that there might be | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
some light this week,
and I think that's positive. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
But I have to be frank on the island
of Ireland question, | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
and I think there's been an attempt
by some to say you can't give | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
Northern Ireland, or break it off
from the United Kingdom, | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
and I wouldn't dream
of attempting to do that. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
I respect things as they are. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:36 | |
Which makes me come
back to my core point. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
The United Kingdom should remain
in the customs union to avoid | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
a problem on the island of Ireland,
and then we can move | 0:14:41 | 0:14:44 | |
to the wider trade issues,
which I have to say are deeply | 0:14:44 | 0:14:46 | |
of concern to me as well. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:48 | |
So I think we have to marry
the political and economic, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
and I think we have to work very
hard politically to find a solution | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
which doesn't damage us. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:55 | |
Because Brexit, in my view, has
the capacity to damage both sides, | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
and we have to avoid that
at all costs. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
Mairead McGuinness, thank you. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:07 | |
Well, listening to that is
the former Secretary of State | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
for Northern Ireland,
Owen Paterson, who was a leading | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
campaigner for Brexit. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
There seems to be a disconnect here.
Mairead McGuinness said the UK | 0:15:16 | 0:15:21 | |
should stay inside the customs union
and the single market, and then all | 0:15:21 | 0:15:25 | |
the problems about Northern Ireland
and the border go away. But that | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
hasn't been what the government has
been proposing. Who's not been | 0:15:29 | 0:15:33 | |
listening in this discussion? You
have to recognise there is an | 0:15:33 | 0:15:37 | |
election coming up in the Republic
of Ireland. A lot of this is stated | 0:15:37 | 0:15:41 | |
with a view to certainly keeping up
to the mark with Sinn Fein or | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
putting gait pushing a strong
campaign on this. I think the Dublin | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
establishment is running scared. It
is extremely obvious from what the | 0:15:50 | 0:15:55 | |
pro minister has said we're going to
leave the single market, customs | 0:15:55 | 0:15:58 | |
union and European Court of Justice.
Biggest weight to destabilise | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
Northern Ireland is to have a crazy
suggestion of a border downbeat | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
Irish Sea. I've been going to
Northern Ireland for nearly ten | 0:16:05 | 0:16:13 | |
years now nearly every week. There
is a border this morning. There's a | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
currency board, a VAT border, a tax
border. I haven't had a single | 0:16:17 | 0:16:23 | |
business say to me the border
presents a problem. This is all | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
solvable with modern technology.
There are other MEPs who have stated | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
in fairly agitated terms that there
has to be some way of checking goods | 0:16:31 | 0:16:36 | |
that may come in from third
countries through into Britain and | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
Northern Ireland. Where would that
check be? It happens now. 1 million | 0:16:40 | 0:16:45 | |
tonnes of goods go across UK roads
into the Republic of Ireland every | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
year, we never see them. But we are
all part of the EU at this point in | 0:16:49 | 0:16:55 | |
time. When we come out of the EU
where with those checks be? How | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
would you resolve this? This is all
done on electronic systems. The | 0:16:58 | 0:17:04 | |
World Bank did a check and they
reckon less than 2% of goods are | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
physically checked. These goods are
well-established. North - South | 0:17:08 | 0:17:15 | |
business is about 5% of Northern
Ireland's sales. You have been | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
slight authorised economic
operators. The milk tankers that | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
take milk, there's probably one of
two operators and it's very easy to | 0:17:22 | 0:17:29 | |
license them. They disagree. They
say technology cannot deal with the | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
issue as it is, hence they've made
this suggestion of a border in the | 0:17:33 | 0:17:38 | |
Irish Sea that would obviously
separate Northern Ireland from | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
Britain. Britain has rejected that,
but that is an option. As is staying | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
in the customs union. But that is
not going to happen. We have voted | 0:17:47 | 0:17:51 | |
to leave. We are going to leave the
customs union, the single market and | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
the ECJ. When you look at the budget
showing the massive advantages, | 0:17:55 | 0:18:02 | |
every family across the UK is going
to be £300 better off by having | 0:18:02 | 0:18:08 | |
cheaper food and clothing. That
helps every single disadvantaged | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
family. It still doesn't solve this
issue. She didn't sound as if she | 0:18:11 | 0:18:16 | |
was willing to compromise in any way
when it comes to trying to deal with | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
the border issue between Northern
Ireland and Ireland. Apart from the | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
technological solution you have, is
there anything else you have in your | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
pocket to try and unlock this part
of the negotiations? It needs some | 0:18:28 | 0:18:34 | |
goodwill on behalf of the new Irish
government. Enda Kenny would have | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
been more reasonable about this. The
government are running scared of | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
Sinn Fein and running ahead of this.
That is the problem. There has to be | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
good will and a half of the Irish
government. There was a report a ago | 0:18:45 | 0:18:52 | |
by both houses of the Irish
government and they said we want to | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
keep the Common travel area and easy
movement of goods and services. On | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
the money, it was clear from that
interview that Mairead McGuinness | 0:18:59 | 0:19:03 | |
and Manfred Weber said yesterday
they want concrete proposals from | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
the Florence speech. The hints of
more money being offered by the UK | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
Government. Michael Gove sort of
said in the interview last week that | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
that is what the British government
should do. Is he right? It's | 0:19:15 | 0:19:20 | |
extraordinary to be talking about
money now before we know what the | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
end arrangement is. Would you be
prepared to do it? The House of | 0:19:22 | 0:19:29 | |
Lords committee say there are no
legal obligations if we leave now. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
We should come to the arrangement
and then see what we own. There will | 0:19:32 | 0:19:38 | |
be things like Horizon and
programmes we will carry on. If | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
there are legally binding
obligations we will pay them. How | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
would you react if Theresa May says
before December we are putting | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
another 20 billion year raised or
pounds on the table? I think that | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
would be and why is. So far the
European Union has trousered every | 0:19:52 | 0:19:59 | |
one of her concessions. She made a
most generous speech in Florence. We | 0:19:59 | 0:20:05 | |
should give them two weeks and say
we assume you aren't going to talk | 0:20:05 | 0:20:10 | |
about the end economic relationship.
If you don't agree, we will assume | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
we are going to WTO terms. So no
Deal. It's not no deal. Much better | 0:20:13 | 0:20:20 | |
would be to have reciprocal free
trade with no tariffs. If they come | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
back and talk to us about that that
would be a much better solution. You | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
say it would be unwise, would you do
anything? She's been very generous, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:32 | |
I wouldn't give any more
concessions. Mairead McGuinness | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
mentioned it was division within the
Conservative Party that is actually | 0:20:35 | 0:20:40 | |
a problem as far as these
negotiations are concerned. Does she | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
have a point? Only a partial point.
Looking at the bigger picture at the | 0:20:43 | 0:20:49 | |
moment, we have this extraordinary
situation in which we voted for | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
Brexit but we didn't vote for any
particular kind of Brexit. So the | 0:20:52 | 0:20:57 | |
government and the half of itself,
on behalf of the Conservative Party | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
and the whole country, is having a
semipublic negotiation about what | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
kind of Brexit we want, while at the
same time negotiating it. So it is | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
bound to look messy. I think we
already have the outlines some kind | 0:21:09 | 0:21:14 | |
of. People behind their hands with
say I've heard on good authority | 0:21:14 | 0:21:21 | |
that Michel Barnier Binks the Irish
border issue is soluble. I mean, | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
that is so much an issue of
political will that the Swiss | 0:21:25 | 0:21:32 | |
minister was before a select
committee the other day saying | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
precisely that. There are technical
solutions to these things, it | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
requires political will. Nobody
wants to see a hard border | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
returning. Let's talk about the
Telegraph singling out Tory MPs as | 0:21:42 | 0:21:49 | |
Brexit mutineers. Was that helpful?
I suppose it makes them think about | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
what they're doing because of them
have clear beliefs about this. There | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
is political consequence of this
that they could possibly jeopardise | 0:21:57 | 0:22:02 | |
the bill, which is extraordinary as
most of them voted for Article 50 | 0:22:02 | 0:22:06 | |
which set a very clear two-year
deadline. Personally I think having | 0:22:06 | 0:22:10 | |
the date is a good idea because
we've got to bring compression to | 0:22:10 | 0:22:14 | |
the commission to start proper talks
about the end relationship. We all | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
ideally want reciprocal free trade
with zero tariffs. It's ridiculous | 0:22:17 | 0:22:23 | |
they aren't talking about that.
Having a date puts pressure on them. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
We have to take a serious decision,
if they aren't going to talk about | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
this we have to decide we will
assume we are going to the WTO. So | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
you see them as being obstructive
and you would describe them in terms | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
that they are not being patriotic?
This is a pretty boring bill. All | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
this is doing is... And it's an idea
I pushed four years ago. Turn the | 0:22:44 | 0:22:53 | |
whole corpus of European law into UK
law. Is what we did when we left | 0:22:53 | 0:22:58 | |
India, when we left Australia. It's
what the colony of Virginia did | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
before the revolution. But they
don't like it, the point is they | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
aren't going to bite fitted. So you
could get up at 3am and run an | 0:23:05 | 0:23:11 | |
abattoir, you have to have a
framework of law. If it looks like | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
you are facing defeat, what should
be done? There's a couple more weeks | 0:23:15 | 0:23:21 | |
until we have the vote. This
actually is a pretty boring techie | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
Bill converting EU law into UK law.
Thank you. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:32 | |
It's believed housing could be one
of the big themes of next week's | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
budget as the government tries
to give more of us a leg up | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
onto the housing ladder. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:39 | |
Theresa May has said
it is her "personal mission that | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
Britain builds more homes more
quickly" although how this will be | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
done is still unclear. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:45 | |
Earlier today Sajid Javid,
the Communities Secretary gave | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
what was dubbed a major speech
on housing and said | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
although progress had
been made this year, | 0:23:50 | 0:23:51 | |
with over 200,000 new homes built,
much more was needed. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
217,000 net additions means 217,000
more people or families | 0:23:55 | 0:24:00 | |
with a roof over their heads. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:06 | |
217,000 places where people can put
down roots and build their life. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:13 | |
But fixing the broken housing market
will require a much larger effort. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
The figures that have been released
today show that we have started | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
to turn things around,
but they are only a small step, | 0:24:21 | 0:24:27 | |
I believe, in the right direction. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
What we now need is a giant leap. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
We asked to speak to a housing
minister or a Government | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
representative, but none
was available. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
Joining me instead is
the Conservative MP Chris Philp, | 0:24:41 | 0:24:43 | |
and the property developer
and television | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
presenter Sarah Beeny. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
Welcome. Chris Philp, George Osborne
famously said "We are the party of | 0:24:48 | 0:24:55 | |
builders". When you look at the
figures, you haven't been, have you? | 0:24:55 | 0:25:00 | |
We have made enormous progress. When
Labour were in office they completed | 0:25:00 | 0:25:06 | |
125,000 houses... When was that?
2009-10. We are now up to 217,000 | 0:25:06 | 0:25:14 | |
completions this year. It's almost
doubled. However as Sajid Javid said | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
it's not enough. We need to do more.
We need to be building 250 or maybe | 0:25:19 | 0:25:25 | |
even 300,000 housing units a year to
catch up with a deficit of housing | 0:25:25 | 0:25:29 | |
that Labour left behind. A lot of
progress but there's more to do. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
Except you've been in power for the
last seven years and you've still | 0:25:32 | 0:25:36 | |
not reached that 250,000 target that
your own white Paper says is | 0:25:36 | 0:25:40 | |
required. You're still short of it
this year and been way of it for the | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
last seven. We are slightly short.
It's been steadily increasing. A | 0:25:44 | 0:25:50 | |
very low bar. That's why the
government has committed £9 billion | 0:25:50 | 0:25:54 | |
to social housing which is a
staggeringly large sum of money... | 0:25:54 | 0:25:58 | |
How many extra homes will the £2
billion that Theresa May announced | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
before the speech, it worked out of
how many? The package as a whole is | 0:26:02 | 0:26:07 | |
£9 billion. That isn't the anything
we are doing. The housing White | 0:26:07 | 0:26:12 | |
Paper last year is designed to help
free up the planning system. I think | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
next week in the budget we will hear
more. What would you like to hear in | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
the budget on housing? I think I'd
like to see really more thought, a | 0:26:19 | 0:26:27 | |
lot more thought put into Howell,
instead of building houses where | 0:26:27 | 0:26:33 | |
there is too much demand at the
moment, why don't we really try and | 0:26:33 | 0:26:38 | |
consider spreading people out across
the country and building houses... | 0:26:38 | 0:26:43 | |
The problem I have is there's a
massive concentration of people | 0:26:43 | 0:26:47 | |
living in the south-east which we
all know. Building more houses in | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
the south-east isn't going to bring
house prices down. What we have is | 0:26:50 | 0:26:57 | |
an affordability problem. It's not a
housing shortage, it's affordable | 0:26:57 | 0:27:01 | |
housing shortage. There is a housing
shortage to. Is there really? In | 0:27:01 | 0:27:07 | |
terms of demand in London and the
south-east and people moving jobs, | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
isn't there a shortage as well as an
affordability problem? There is an | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
argument that if there was a
shortage of housing you wouldn't be | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
able to find a house for sale and if
you look online there are lots of | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
houses for sale. There's a shortage
of houses that people can afford to | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
buy. What we are really talking
about is a house price issue not a | 0:27:25 | 0:27:31 | |
shortage of actual houses. Do you
agree in terms of building homes | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
away from the concentrations like
London and the south-east where they | 0:27:35 | 0:27:38 | |
have traditionally been built in
large numbers? We do need to spread | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
housing around. We need to make sure
our northern cities are being | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
invested in. Things like the
Northern Power has project and HS2. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:52 | |
I think there is a supply issue as
well as an affordability issue. We | 0:27:52 | 0:27:56 | |
need to be creative about where we
build. We need to make sure every | 0:27:56 | 0:28:01 | |
spare piece of brown field is built
on. Transport for London have 6000 | 0:28:01 | 0:28:06 | |
acres Brownfield land. It is
expensive to access that. It can be. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:12 | |
There is £2 billion designed to
unlock it. It may be expensive but | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
we need to grip the problem and get
on with it and build on that land | 0:28:15 | 0:28:19 | |
because houses are so badly needed.
I would like to see any public land | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
that is ever sold, our land that we
all own, when it sold I would like | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
to see it only being sold at... The
problem is the price it ends up | 0:28:28 | 0:28:34 | |
being worth means that people are
forced to build houses that and | 0:28:34 | 0:28:41 | |
affordable. Why can't we cap
affordable house prices and make | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
house prices stay affordable
permanently? When we sell public | 0:28:46 | 0:28:49 | |
land it can only ever be built on
with houses that are affordable and | 0:28:49 | 0:28:54 | |
stay affordable. That's an idea I've
heard and we should look at doing | 0:28:54 | 0:28:58 | |
that. I am excited about the
possibility of bringing forward more | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
public sector land. Network Rail
have lots of land, the MoD... What | 0:29:02 | 0:29:08 | |
about affordability? When people
talk about affordable housing and | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
you look at prices of new homes,
they aren't affordable really, | 0:29:11 | 0:29:15 | |
certainly not to a first-time buyer
unless you've got a great big | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
deposit or the bank of mum and dad.
The help to buy scheme is designed | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
to give people a boost to their
mortgage. They only require a 5% | 0:29:22 | 0:29:27 | |
deposit. Generally speaking you are
right. Pricing is a function of | 0:29:27 | 0:29:33 | |
supply and demand. There is massive
demand and not enough supply. That's | 0:29:33 | 0:29:37 | |
why prices are so high. The root
cause of this is increasing supply. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:41 | |
That's what the housing White Paper
and budget next week will do. I | 0:29:41 | 0:29:45 | |
think Sarah has a point. Britain has
two infrastructure problems. In | 0:29:45 | 0:29:50 | |
London and the south-east it is
housing or housing affordability. In | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
the Midlands and the north it is
transport infrastructure. It's not | 0:29:53 | 0:29:57 | |
even say much about the big project,
Northern Powerhouse, but it's about | 0:29:57 | 0:30:03 | |
the little links. The connection
between Burnley and Lancashire. I | 0:30:03 | 0:30:07 | |
spoke to Yvette Cooper who said
there is only one train from her | 0:30:07 | 0:30:12 | |
constituency into Leeds every day.
If the great Northern and midland | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
towns revive even more than they
have done already, if they continue | 0:30:16 | 0:30:23 | |
to grow and flourish, and they will
do, then we can sort out some of | 0:30:23 | 0:30:27 | |
those infrastructure links and the
pressure of people coming down to | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
the south-east will be relieved
partly. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:36 | |
on that issue, without transport
links, can you build those homes | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
elsewhere in the country if there
are isolated pockets aren't well | 0:30:39 | 0:30:43 | |
served by transport links? There are
a lot of affordable homes already | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
that nobody can get, so we don't
necessarily need to build more | 0:30:46 | 0:30:51 | |
homes, we just need to get the
people to the homes, and that means | 0:30:51 | 0:30:55 | |
the infrastructure, it needs the
jobs there, the schools and | 0:30:55 | 0:30:58 | |
hospitals, and that will stop the
concentration. If you invest in | 0:30:58 | 0:31:02 | |
business outside London, where the
houses are, then the people will | 0:31:02 | 0:31:07 | |
follow the jobs. In terms of land
you could build on, builders like | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
green belt - should it be built on
more? It is precious and it improves | 0:31:11 | 0:31:16 | |
the quality of life for people who
live on the edge of large cities, | 0:31:16 | 0:31:21 | |
including my own constituents in
Croydon South. Isn't that the | 0:31:21 | 0:31:26 | |
problem, councils in constituencies
such as yours will block this? Green | 0:31:26 | 0:31:30 | |
belt covers a large area, and you
could look to see if there are bits | 0:31:30 | 0:31:34 | |
that are not what you and I would
imagine and do an audit of that. You | 0:31:34 | 0:31:39 | |
could also build higher in the
centre of town. Croydon town centre | 0:31:39 | 0:31:44 | |
is an ideal place to go up 20 or 30
stories, and it is very accessible | 0:31:44 | 0:31:49 | |
because the station has fantastic
links. The point Sarah made about | 0:31:49 | 0:31:53 | |
transport links is important, and if
we invest more in transport links | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
that bring people into those
northern cities like Manchester and | 0:31:57 | 0:32:00 | |
Leeds, that will help. Should the
Government borrowed significant | 0:32:00 | 0:32:05 | |
amounts of money to do it? It is
doing it already. We have a £35 | 0:32:05 | 0:32:14 | |
billion capital spending programme.
There is Crossrail. We are building | 0:32:14 | 0:32:19 | |
HS2, one of the biggest high-speed
rail projects in the world. And we | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
are spending on affordable housing.
Is it enough or should they be | 0:32:22 | 0:32:27 | |
spending more? Or allowing local
authorities to borrow more or | 0:32:27 | 0:32:33 | |
encouraging housing associations and
local authorities. One bit of the | 0:32:33 | 0:32:36 | |
housing market that works well is
student accommodation. Student halls | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
of residence are going up across the
country all the time, so it is | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
clearly possible to do. Councils -
are they an obstruction? The | 0:32:44 | 0:32:55 | |
planning system is actually have
gone backwards. I would like to see | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
individuals being ... It being much
simpler to get planning permission. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:06 | |
In the process has been made much
harder for individuals and much more | 0:33:06 | 0:33:09 | |
complicated than it used to be.
Another thing I would love to see | 0:33:09 | 0:33:14 | |
years, you used to be able to go to
your local authority and ask the | 0:33:14 | 0:33:19 | |
planning department whether you were
likely to get planning for something | 0:33:19 | 0:33:24 | |
or not, and now you need to pay for
that, which pushes away individuals | 0:33:24 | 0:33:29 | |
from perhaps doing development
because they have to pay for advice. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
I think that's crazy if we actually
want people to... We are better off | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
with people doing building work
individually rather than just a | 0:33:36 | 0:33:42 | |
developers. Individuals actually
employ people who live locally, and | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
that's good, gets the world moving.
Thank you to both of you for coming | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
in, and we will no doubt hear more
about housing in the budget. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
Next week, we need an emergency
budget to save our public services, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
according to Shadow Chancellor John
McDonnell. | 0:33:56 | 0:33:57 | |
This morning he's made five demands
to the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
including more cash to public
services and serious | 0:34:00 | 0:34:02 | |
infrastructure funding,
all to be funded by more borrowing. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:04 | |
Here's a flavour of
what he had to say. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:13 | |
Cuts to public spending damage the
whole of society. And when a | 0:34:13 | 0:34:18 | |
Government, as the Tories did, cut
research funding by £1 billion, it | 0:34:18 | 0:34:22 | |
has real economic consequences. When
they cut investment spending by | 0:34:22 | 0:34:29 | |
nearly 20 billion, it has an impact
on business. Investment in the UK is | 0:34:29 | 0:34:33 | |
the third lowest of any major
developed economy, head of only | 0:34:33 | 0:34:39 | |
Portugal and Greece. Public spending
on transport is the very lowest at | 0:34:39 | 0:34:44 | |
the developed economies. Without the
investment, you don't get the new | 0:34:44 | 0:34:50 | |
equipment and technology that can
sustain growth. It means skilled | 0:34:50 | 0:34:54 | |
people and those with talent and
ideas across the whole country are | 0:34:54 | 0:34:58 | |
not realising their potential. And
businesses cannot grow as they | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
should. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:04 | |
Listening to that is the Shadow
Treasury Minister Anneliese Dodds. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:10 | |
She is here with me now. How much
money can labour guarantee it will | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
be able to extract from the big
corporations and the super-rich? In | 0:35:14 | 0:35:20 | |
our manifesto, we set out very
clearly the fact that, for example, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:24 | |
we felt that £70 billion was being
squandered on tax cuts through | 0:35:24 | 0:35:28 | |
corporation tax and for the very
richest earners as well, by altering | 0:35:28 | 0:35:33 | |
the system for the highest earners.
We think that money could be much | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
better spent on growth- promoting
investment, like that that John was | 0:35:36 | 0:35:42 | |
talking about. Can you guarantee
that you will get that kind of | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
money? It is a big pot of money you
are talking about, but when you look | 0:35:45 | 0:35:49 | |
at the detailing your manifesto and
the costings, you are relying on | 0:35:49 | 0:35:53 | |
more money coming from tax avoidance
that you think is still out there, | 0:35:53 | 0:35:58 | |
and getting that guaranteed stream
of revenue year-on-year. There will | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
be debate about some of the detail,
I accept, but Labour set all the bat | 0:36:02 | 0:36:08 | |
out at the general election. The
Conservatives didn't. The only | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
numbers in their manifesto were the
page numbers. We set up where the | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
money would come from, and there has
been a debate about elements of it, | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
which is healthy. We encourage that.
We feel, on the fundamentals, yes, | 0:36:18 | 0:36:24 | |
we absolutely can pay for these
investments, and we think we have to | 0:36:24 | 0:36:27 | |
because we are doing so badly as a
country now when it comes to | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
investment. We have to deal with it
radically. Do you agree that the | 0:36:31 | 0:36:42 | |
country is doing badly and so needs
this emergency injection of cash, | 0:36:42 | 0:36:44 | |
which is really just based on their
manifesto? The country is growing | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
less fast than it might be.
Obviously there is the Brexit | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
shadow. We are still in a slow
recovery path from the financial | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
crisis. But yes, we have
historically been a short-term | 0:36:54 | 0:37:02 | |
economy in terms of private
investment. We have never been big | 0:37:02 | 0:37:06 | |
investors. Anyway that governments
can help stimulate that is surely a | 0:37:06 | 0:37:10 | |
good thing. There is a complete
cross-party consensus on bringing | 0:37:10 | 0:37:15 | |
money in from tax avoidance. All
parties have always agreed, and I | 0:37:15 | 0:37:20 | |
think you may be slightly a victim
of your own ideology that the Tory | 0:37:20 | 0:37:27 | |
Party are protecting their
super-rich friends. It is nonsense. | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
If it was easy to get money out of
corporations and rich individuals, I | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
think any Government would have done
it. Elements talk about it and try | 0:37:34 | 0:37:39 | |
to do it. I sat through the debates
around the Finance Bill that we have | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
just had. There were some very well
thought through measures that Labour | 0:37:42 | 0:37:47 | |
was arguing for is part of those
debates of which the Government | 0:37:47 | 0:37:50 | |
refused to accept, measures that are
in place in countries very similar | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
to Britain. You have to acknowledge,
we have a specific UK problem that | 0:37:53 | 0:37:57 | |
isn't afflicting other economies. We
are the only growing economy where | 0:37:57 | 0:38:01 | |
people's living standards haven't
been increasing. Let's pick up on | 0:38:01 | 0:38:06 | |
that issue. The unions have called
for a 3.9% pay rise to some parts, | 0:38:06 | 0:38:12 | |
or all parts, I think a the public
sector, particularly now that the | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
Government has signalled an end to
the freeze. The user pot that? We | 0:38:16 | 0:38:20 | |
think there should be rises in line
with inflation, but ultimately it | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
should be the pay review bodies that
possess that. They are guided by | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
governments, and presuming that you
were the Government, would you be | 0:38:29 | 0:38:33 | |
advising 3.9% pay rises, as the
unions have said, because you say | 0:38:33 | 0:38:37 | |
you want it to be above inflation?
We had a load of these discussions, | 0:38:37 | 0:38:46 | |
and even in this chair at the time,
when this came up in front of | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
Parliament. We said we think the pay
review bodies need to be freed from | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
the shackles they have. They need to
look at recruitment challenges. If | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
they end up saying, you need a rise
of that magnitude to deal with | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
recruitment... I don't want to say a
figure, which I think would be | 0:38:58 | 0:39:04 | |
artificial. People will want to know
what you are proposing, and what you | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
would support, so all I'm asking is,
would you be prepared, whether it is | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
the pay review bodies that will
suggest it, freed from the shackles, | 0:39:12 | 0:39:17 | |
as you describe, would labour be
prepared to back that level of pay | 0:39:17 | 0:39:22 | |
rise? The point is, we don't want
this politicised in the way the | 0:39:22 | 0:39:26 | |
Government has made it. We think
that pay has to | 0:39:26 | 0:39:38 | |
keep in line with costs, and we want
the independent pay review bodies to | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
do that. We set out how we would pay
for it, some months ago, and unless | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
we get a grip on this, we will see
the situation continuing come off | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
when nurses have to have a second
job. It might help with retention. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:55 | |
How much would it cost? The
Government's own figures said they | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
thought they would save £5 billion
over format years. It is 1.25 | 0:39:59 | 0:40:07 | |
billion every year, in practice, to
get us towards the direction we are | 0:40:07 | 0:40:13 | |
travelling in. -- over foul-mac
years. -- over four. Some people are | 0:40:13 | 0:40:27 | |
leaving professions because they are
not paid enough. A lot of the things | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
being talked about by yourself and
John McDonnell would not be just | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
borrowing to invest, it would be a
lot of extra public spending, on | 0:40:33 | 0:40:39 | |
schools, health, public sector pay,
children's services, and that would | 0:40:39 | 0:40:43 | |
be current, day-to-day spending,
wouldn't it? Where we need | 0:40:43 | 0:40:46 | |
additional spending, that is
sensible. It's not like we are in a | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
situation at the moment where the
Government hasn't increased | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
spending. If you look at spending on
some of the areas of benefits, it | 0:40:54 | 0:40:58 | |
has been going up because people's
incomes have been going down. I | 0:40:58 | 0:41:02 | |
don't think we should suggest that
currently the Government hasn't | 0:41:02 | 0:41:07 | |
increased spending. It has. But we
are talking about labour, and I am | 0:41:07 | 0:41:12 | |
saying that your current day-to-day
spending would go up to paper the | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
things you want to do. Yes, but we
have explained where that will come | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
from. We try to beat transparent
about it. In terms of welfare, the | 0:41:19 | 0:41:25 | |
Shadow Chancellor talked about
children in poverty and poverty in | 0:41:25 | 0:41:28 | |
general, but labour is only
committed to reversing one third of | 0:41:28 | 0:41:33 | |
the Government's £12 billion welfare
cuts. If it is so desperate, why | 0:41:33 | 0:41:37 | |
aren't you reversing all of them?
When it comes to Universal Credit, | 0:41:37 | 0:41:42 | |
this new approach to benefits,
packaging five into one, it is not | 0:41:42 | 0:41:46 | |
just about the spending levels but
about getting that system to work. I | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
think it wouldn't be | 0:41:50 | 0:42:01 | |
sensible at this stage to say,
right, we will totally change that | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
system again. We have had so much
change. So not all of the welfare | 0:42:06 | 0:42:08 | |
cuts have been a bad thing? You are
not going to reverse more than a | 0:42:08 | 0:42:11 | |
third, as you say. We need to have a
review of Universal Credit. There | 0:42:11 | 0:42:14 | |
are things that can be done now to
make that system worked far better, | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
for example, the fact that the work
allowance has been cut means that | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
you are not better off in work than
you would have been under the | 0:42:20 | 0:42:22 | |
original plans. Isn't this the point
at this time as Labour is | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
indicating, that austerity, to use
the word that was used by the | 0:42:25 | 0:42:30 | |
Conservatives, that it is time to
end it and reset the narrative on | 0:42:30 | 0:42:34 | |
the economy and spent on the public
sector? I think they can take their | 0:42:34 | 0:42:40 | |
foot off the pedal a bit. In
2009-10, the deficit was 10% of GDP | 0:42:40 | 0:42:45 | |
or something, and it is now down to
2-3%. We are moving in the right | 0:42:45 | 0:42:51 | |
direction. The total public debt to
GDP is just about hitting 90%. It is | 0:42:51 | 0:42:59 | |
about 88. I think they have to still
talk tough up to a point, but I | 0:42:59 | 0:43:04 | |
think they can and probably will
take their foot off the pedal. But | 0:43:04 | 0:43:08 | |
you have some sympathy for the
Labour position? Yes, but the | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
problem is that if you go rapidly in
the other direction, you build up | 0:43:11 | 0:43:15 | |
the stock of debt. You might quote
Japan at me. Japan has 220% of GDP | 0:43:15 | 0:43:22 | |
as public debt, but it is a high
saving country. All of the people | 0:43:22 | 0:43:27 | |
who lend money to the Government are
Japanese, and nearly one third of | 0:43:27 | 0:43:32 | |
our public debt is in foreign hands.
They will stop supporting Britain | 0:43:32 | 0:43:37 | |
and you will have a 1981 Francois
Mitterrand situation. You will have | 0:43:37 | 0:43:42 | |
to do a U-turn. You should agree
that we should not just be looking | 0:43:42 | 0:43:49 | |
at spending but at revenue as well.
If you look at the falls in revenue, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:53 | |
because of low pay and because of
cuts the corporation and the highest | 0:43:53 | 0:43:57 | |
rates of income tax, if we reverse
that, we can build up revenue, which | 0:43:57 | 0:44:01 | |
is a sustainable way of getting to
the place we want. Lope has fallen | 0:44:01 | 0:44:07 | |
for the first time in 15 years. It
depends -- low pay. It depends how | 0:44:07 | 0:44:17 | |
you calculate it. We will have to
end it there. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:19 | |
Not that long ago Labour in Scotland
dominated the political landscape | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
in a way that today they can only
dream of, both in | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
Edinburgh and London. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:26 | |
Now however they face an SNP
government that's been in power | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
for ten years and a resurgant
Scottish Conserative party | 0:44:29 | 0:44:31 | |
under Ruth Davidson. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:32 | |
Under this backdrop
the Scottish Labour Party | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
are electing a new leader. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:35 | |
Here's Elizabeth Glinka with more. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
MUSIC: "Needle in a Haystack"
by The Velvelettes. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:42 | |
If Scottish Labour was on a dating
website, its status might | 0:44:42 | 0:44:45 | |
read "it's complicated". | 0:44:45 | 0:44:47 | |
There have been five
leaders since 2008. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:50 | |
When Kezia Dugdale took over
in 2015 it was described | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
as the worst job in politics. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
Now, another new leader is due to be
announced this weekend. | 0:44:56 | 0:45:03 | |
This is a classic contest
in the Labour Party | 0:45:03 | 0:45:05 | |
between the left and the right. | 0:45:05 | 0:45:07 | |
Richard Leonard is the left
candidate backed by the Corbynistas, | 0:45:07 | 0:45:10 | |
although he's not a Corbynista
himself, he's an old-fashioned | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
trade unionist. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:17 | |
His younger opponent Anas Sarwar
is much better known. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
He has the backing of more
more parliamentarians | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
than Richard Leonard,
and he got off to a bad start. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:27 | |
But since then he seems to have
found his feet a bit. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
He may have found his feet,
but the former MP and now MSP has | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
faced some challenges. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
From his children's private
education to his family's business. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:41 | |
But meeting volunteers at this
charity in Edinburgh, | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
he bristled at the idea
that he was the | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
establishment candidate. | 0:45:45 | 0:45:46 | |
It's fantastic. | 0:45:46 | 0:45:48 | |
A 34-year-old from the West
of Scotland, second generation | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
migrant Muslim is now
somehow the establishment. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
That shows you where our politics
has got two in Scotland. | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
I'm not the establishment's
choice in this contest. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
I'm not someone who wants
to fight for the status quo. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
I'm someone that recognises
that our political system is broken, | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
our economic system is broken,
our social system is broken, | 0:46:05 | 0:46:09 | |
and that's why we need radical,
bold, but also credible change | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
in our country. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
Meanwhile, his opponent who is vying
to become the first Englishman | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
to lead Scottish Labour,
is keen to eschew the Corbynista | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
tag, despite having senior Corbyn
aides now running his campaign. | 0:46:20 | 0:46:27 | |
I'm a bit long in the tooth
to be a Corbynista. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
I've been a member of the Labour
Party since the early 1980s. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
There are some similarities,
dare I say, with Jeremy Corbyn | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
in the sense that I've
been pretty consistent. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:39 | |
My views have been consistent,
my political principles and values | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
haven't really changed,
and that is meant from time | 0:46:42 | 0:46:47 | |
to time I've been a bit off
message or out of fashion. | 0:46:47 | 0:46:52 | |
But I've stuck to my views
and I think that they are things | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
that give authenticity
and credibility to leadership. | 0:46:55 | 0:46:57 | |
But this internal battle may seem
a little academic when you remember | 0:46:57 | 0:46:59 | |
that Labour is the third party
in Scottish politics, | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
behind the SNP and the resurgent
Tories under Ruth Davidson. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:06 | |
Whomever wins, they're
going to have a real uphill struggle | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
on their hands before the next
Scottish Parliament | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
elections in 2021. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:21 | |
Both those candidates seem to define
themselves against the SNP. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
And actually, for the Labour Party
in Scotland right now, | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
the problem is not the SNP. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
The problem is trying to get ahead
of the Tories and Ruth Davidson. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
Richard Leonard or Anas Sarwar's big
problem is going to be | 0:47:31 | 0:47:33 | |
that they are up against two
of the most formidable political | 0:47:33 | 0:47:36 | |
operators not just in Scotland
but in the UK scene. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:39 | |
In the event of victory,
both men have spoken with passion | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
about uniting the party. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
We'll find out on Saturday who's
been deemed Mr Right. | 0:47:44 | 0:47:51 | |
I'm pleased to say Sarah Smith
joins me now from Glasgow. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:57 | |
Whoever wins, how much of a
difference will it make to Labour's | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
fortunes in Scotland? It will be
very interesting to see if they can | 0:48:01 | 0:48:06 | |
open up a different debate. You look
at both of these candidates, they | 0:48:06 | 0:48:11 | |
are broadly seen as left and right.
Both of them have come up with more | 0:48:11 | 0:48:16 | |
radical tax plans than Jeremy
Corbyn's manifesto in the general | 0:48:16 | 0:48:19 | |
election. Anas Sarwar is talking
about a 50p top rate starting at | 0:48:19 | 0:48:25 | |
£100,000 a year. Richard Leonard
talks about a one-off windfall | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
wealth tax on the better off in
Scotland. What they hope is that by | 0:48:28 | 0:48:36 | |
espousing policies more radical than
those Jeremy Corbyn promotes, that | 0:48:36 | 0:48:40 | |
they can create a new audience in
Scotland. Maybe get some of the | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
young people who are energised and
excited by the idea of independence | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
to come back and support the Labour
Party. That's interesting because | 0:48:47 | 0:48:51 | |
it's a difficult job. They are up
against Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth | 0:48:51 | 0:48:55 | |
Davidson. Yes, it is one of the
toughest jobs there is in UK | 0:48:55 | 0:49:01 | |
politics where the Labour Party is
languishing in third place and | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
you've got to really strong
performers you have to try and go up | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
against. What the Labour Party has
to do is create the space for an | 0:49:07 | 0:49:12 | |
argument between Nicola Sturgeon and
Ruth Davidson. They haven't had much | 0:49:12 | 0:49:16 | |
of a hearing, not necessarily
because there's been anything wrong | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
with their leader but because of a
slightly confused position on the | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
constitution. The SNP obviously in
favour of independence, the Tories | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
the staunch defenders of the UK.
Labour desperately want to change | 0:49:27 | 0:49:32 | |
the subject, talking about tax,
benefits, poverty and inequality. If | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
they can do that they might get a
hearing. Sarah Smith, I always ask | 0:49:36 | 0:49:43 | |
you to put your money on one of the
candidates. Richard Leonard was | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
always seen as the favourite. Is
that still the case? He is still the | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
favourite at the bookies. His camp
appear more confident than Anas | 0:49:50 | 0:49:55 | |
Sarwar's team. They have a lot of
backing from the trade unions. Anas | 0:49:55 | 0:50:02 | |
Sarwar's camp say a lot of new
members of the Labour Party they | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
believe have signed up to support
him but their votes could be dwarfed | 0:50:05 | 0:50:09 | |
by the union affiliates and
registered supporters who presumably | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
come in for Richard Leonard. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:17 | |
Are you from somewhere, or anywhere? | 0:50:17 | 0:50:19 | |
According to my guest of the day,
your answer will put | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
you on either one side,
or the other of one of major fault | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
lines running through politics. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:27 | |
Those who are from somewhere
are more rooted to where they live, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
value security and are troubled
by high immigration. | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
If you're from anywhere you're more
mobile, better paid and more | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
comfortable with immigration. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
It's a split that crosses political
parties, although in last year's | 0:50:37 | 0:50:40 | |
party conference speech Theresa May
embraced the idea, and left people | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
in no doubt which side she was on. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
That spirit that means recognising
the social contract that says | 0:50:45 | 0:50:48 | |
you train up local young people
before you take on cheap | 0:50:48 | 0:50:50 | |
labour from overseas. | 0:50:50 | 0:50:58 | |
That spirit that means you do
as others do and pay | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
your fair share of tax. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:02 | |
But today... | 0:51:02 | 0:51:03 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:51:03 | 0:51:11 | |
But today, too many people
in positions of power behave | 0:51:11 | 0:51:16 | |
as though they have more in common
with international elites | 0:51:16 | 0:51:18 | |
than with the people down the road,
the people they employ, | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
the people they pass on the street. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
But if you believe you're
a citizen of the world, | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
you're a citizen of nowhere. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
You don't understand what the very
word "citizenship" means. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:33 | |
Theresa May there in 2016. | 0:51:33 | 0:51:34 | |
Well, to discuss this we're joined
by The Guardian columnist | 0:51:34 | 0:51:38 | |
Jonathan Freedland -
and our guest of the day | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
David Goodhart has long had
an interest in these issues. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:47 | |
You used to be part of the liberal
metropolitan elite as you would | 0:51:47 | 0:51:51 | |
describe yourself, what changed? I
became interested in questions of | 0:51:51 | 0:51:56 | |
national identity and immigration. I
wrote a book about immigration a few | 0:51:56 | 0:52:01 | |
years ago. I think I started to see
the world from a slightly different | 0:52:01 | 0:52:06 | |
perspective. I had assumed, like so
many people of my generation growing | 0:52:06 | 0:52:12 | |
up in the 60s and 70s, going to
university, I assumed that the | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
liberal litany was not only
righteous but was the way for the | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
future. You have two, obviously all
sensible people believe in openness, | 0:52:21 | 0:52:28 | |
autonomy, self-realisation. It
gradually dawned on me that very | 0:52:28 | 0:52:32 | |
large sections of our population
have completely different world | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
view. That doesn't mean to say they
are xenophobic or bad people. Some | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
of them may be. But many people want
basic, simple things. Stable | 0:52:38 | 0:52:43 | |
communities, secure borders,
national citizen rights before | 0:52:43 | 0:52:47 | |
universal rights. They want decent
outcomes for people who don't go to | 0:52:47 | 0:52:53 | |
university, decent narratives for
young kids who are not popping off | 0:52:53 | 0:52:57 | |
to universities. These basic things,
that seemed not any longer to be | 0:52:57 | 0:53:04 | |
part of the centre-left agenda. That
made me change my mind on some of | 0:53:04 | 0:53:08 | |
these things. Do you think the
definition of somewhere and anywhere | 0:53:08 | 0:53:13 | |
is helpful in terms of understanding
the social trends or politics in the | 0:53:13 | 0:53:16 | |
UK? | 0:53:16 | 0:53:20 | |
It's a useful tool and been braced
by a lot of people. I don't think | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
the nowhere category was helpful. In
the context of leaf and remain it | 0:53:24 | 0:53:29 | |
essentially delegitimised Remainers
and conjured up the notion of | 0:53:29 | 0:53:37 | |
rootless cosmopolitan Zaza citizens
of nowhere, which is in idea with a | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
bad history. I think the categories
are to bald. Some of the trace hear | 0:53:40 | 0:53:50 | |
tributes to somewhere for example in
community cohesion and valuing | 0:53:50 | 0:53:54 | |
communal bonds, I think some of the
most anywhere parts of the country | 0:53:54 | 0:53:58 | |
exhibit those traits. Grenfell Tower
is once again in the news rightly | 0:53:58 | 0:54:03 | |
and Finsbury Park after that terror
attack. You saw communities of | 0:54:03 | 0:54:07 | |
diverse people coming together and
showing exactly the bonds of | 0:54:07 | 0:54:10 | |
community your model Mania tributes
to somewhere. Minority communities | 0:54:10 | 0:54:15 | |
are often the most rooted and
grounded. The growth of the British | 0:54:15 | 0:54:21 | |
minority population acts as a bridge
in some ways between the anywhere | 0:54:21 | 0:54:25 | |
worldview and the somewhere
worldview. Jonathan and others have | 0:54:25 | 0:54:30 | |
made the reasonable point, and in
the introduction to my paperback | 0:54:30 | 0:54:35 | |
edition of the book I acknowledge
that. I'm not saying that anywheres | 0:54:35 | 0:54:43 | |
citizens of nowhere. They are not
just an elite. This is something I | 0:54:43 | 0:54:48 | |
keep emphasising. The educated and
mobile, and it's such an important | 0:54:48 | 0:54:53 | |
link in this country because of
residential universities partly. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
People who have achieved identities.
They passed exams, went to good | 0:54:57 | 0:55:02 | |
universities, have more or less
successful careers. Those people | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
constitute a quarter of the
population. If you look at the value | 0:55:06 | 0:55:10 | |
and opinion data they are
consistently there across everything | 0:55:10 | 0:55:14 | |
from support for the EU to
immigration and so on. They aren't | 0:55:14 | 0:55:19 | |
automatically disconnected from
what's around them. We saw that in | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
the last election. The Bristol West,
the Manchester within short. They | 0:55:21 | 0:55:27 | |
aren't where they came from
originally but they've made new | 0:55:27 | 0:55:31 | |
communities. That was my point,
largely, that they showed great | 0:55:31 | 0:55:36 | |
qualities of community cohesion. The
point about minorities is important. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
Part of what the somewheres bemoan
is the idea that diversity has | 0:55:39 | 0:55:46 | |
imperilled their lives. I think the
model, as David describes it, buys | 0:55:46 | 0:55:51 | |
into too much of that notion that
minorities and diversity has | 0:55:51 | 0:55:55 | |
imperilled that life. I think
actually they exhibit just the kind | 0:55:55 | 0:55:59 | |
of community bonds you would want,
and therefore to cast newcomers and | 0:55:59 | 0:56:04 | |
minority communities as somehow the
crowd on the horizon is, I think, | 0:56:04 | 0:56:08 | |
unhelpful and also at variance with
the fact. Which I don't do. You used | 0:56:08 | 0:56:13 | |
that phrase in your review of my
book and there's no evidence I use | 0:56:13 | 0:56:19 | |
that. It's to do with scale and pace
of change. You say people object to | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
their communities being changed to
rapidly by mass immigration so you | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
are talking about the scale and pace
of change. Has immigration been bad | 0:56:26 | 0:56:30 | |
for society? It's been good and bad.
For many people it's been far too | 0:56:30 | 0:56:37 | |
large and far too rapid. I think
that's indisputable and is one of | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
the reasons, probably the biggest
single reason we are leading the | 0:56:41 | 0:56:46 | |
European Union now, is because of
the way that freedom of movement has | 0:56:46 | 0:56:50 | |
operated. 1.5 million people came
over five years and changed the face | 0:56:50 | 0:56:56 | |
of many urban and suburban areas of
the country. Just too fast. Do you | 0:56:56 | 0:57:01 | |
think that is, in some people's
mind, would be seen as | 0:57:01 | 0:57:05 | |
anti-immigration or even perhaps
racist? Some people would cast it | 0:57:05 | 0:57:09 | |
that way. It's helpful if we can get
beyond that. I think it's so hard to | 0:57:09 | 0:57:14 | |
know that. So many of those
communities have so many other | 0:57:14 | 0:57:19 | |
problems. They've been left behind
economically, social neglect, etc. | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
The idea is certain that the change
in immigration often in places that | 0:57:23 | 0:57:29 | |
have experienced hardly any
immigration, that that is the root | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
of their problems. I agree it became
central in the referendum. It's an | 0:57:32 | 0:57:37 | |
emblem. It's an emblem of nostalgia
and gloss. That is real but is it | 0:57:37 | 0:57:42 | |
down to the fact society has got
more diverse? I'm not sure. You come | 0:57:42 | 0:57:47 | |
from Barnsley, 40 years ago you
lived in one of the great coalfields | 0:57:47 | 0:57:52 | |
of Western Europe. But now you see
the national story has completely | 0:57:52 | 0:57:56 | |
passed you by. The focus is entirely
on the great metropolitan centres | 0:57:56 | 0:58:00 | |
with their large minority population
and you see that at a loss. You | 0:58:00 | 0:58:04 | |
don't have to be xenophobic to feel
a sense of loss. The sense of loss | 0:58:04 | 0:58:10 | |
might be more of a shift from
Barnsley to the metropolitan area | 0:58:10 | 0:58:13 | |
and not because they've got more
diverse. Who is more virtuous, | 0:58:13 | 0:58:20 | |
somewheres or anywheres? Both
worldviews are entirely did it, we | 0:58:20 | 0:58:23 | |
have divine bridges between them --
are entirely legitimate. | 0:58:23 | 0:58:28 | |
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz. | 0:58:28 | 0:58:31 | |
The question was which Cabinet
minister has been showing off | 0:58:31 | 0:58:34 | |
in Cabinet while trying to audition
for the role of Chancellor? | 0:58:34 | 0:58:36 | |
Was it Andrea Leadsom,
Michael Gove, Liam Fox, | 0:58:36 | 0:58:38 | |
or Gavin Williamson? | 0:58:38 | 0:58:39 | |
So David, what's the correct answer? | 0:58:39 | 0:58:41 | |
That is very easy because I read the
Times, it is Michael Gove. Well | 0:58:41 | 0:58:44 | |
done, you've got it! He did have a
favourite phrase which I can't | 0:58:44 | 0:58:49 | |
remember! | 0:58:49 | 0:58:51 | |
That's all for today. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:52 | |
Thanks to our guests. | 0:58:52 | 0:58:56 | |
Andrew will be back tonight
with This Week tonight. | 0:58:56 | 0:58:58 | |
Bye bye. | 0:58:58 | 0:59:01 |