16/11/2017 Daily Politics


16/11/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by writer David Goodhart to discuss Brexit, populism and housing policy. Plus how successful are politicians at bluffing knowledge of the economy?


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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As the deadline looms, negotiations

over a Brexit deal grind on,

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with the EU demanding more progress

on the terms of Britain leaving

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before allowing talks on trade,

we'll speak to the Vice President

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of the European Parliament.

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Theresa May has said building more

homes is her 'personal mission',

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so how will the Government find

the money and will they be prepared

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to take on local opposition?

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Labour is demanding an emergency

budget to fund a public sector pay

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rise, provide more money

for infrastructure, and increase

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spending on public services.

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We'll ask a member of their Treasury

team where the cash will come from.

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And forget left and right

in politics, there's a new fault

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line between the somewheres

and the anywheres, find out

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which side you're on.

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All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today,

the author and commentator

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David Goodhart.

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He works for the think-tank

Policy Exchange, and is the author

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of the Road to Somewhere,

more of which later.

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Welcome to the show.

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First this morning, universal credit

is back on the agenda after reports

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in the press that the Government

was preparing to cut the length

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of time claimants have to wait

before they receive payments.

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It's currently six weeks,

but Theresa May has come under a lot

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of pressure to reduce the time,

including from some of her own MPs.

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Yesterday, during PMQs,

Jeremy Corbyn yet again attacked

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Mrs May over the benefit.

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Will the Prime Minister pause

Universal Credit so it can be fixed?

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Or does she think it is right to put

thousands of families

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through Christmas in the trauma

of knowing they're about to be

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evicted, because they're in rent

arrears, because of Universal

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Credit?

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SPEAKER:

Prime Minister.

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Can I say to the right honourable

gentleman that there have

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been concerns raised,

there have been concerns raised

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in this House previously

over the issue of people

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managing their budgets to pay rent.

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But what we actually see...

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What we see is that over...

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We see that after four months,

the number of people

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on Universal Credit in arrears has

fallen by a third.

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Has the Government response on

Universal Credit been adequate?

I

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don't think we've heard the full

response so far, and I think we are

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told we will hear something in the

budget about this. Pretty well

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everybody agrees that the principles

behind it are good ones, bringing

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together lots of different benefits,

simplifying, helping to reduce a

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little bit the cliff edges, those

huge poverty traps that a lot of

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people suffer from. The problem is

implementation, and it always is.

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Tax credits was the same problem,

going back to Labour in power. You

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get the feeling that the people who

design these benefits are not

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experience the understanding the

experience of the people who claim

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them.

The critics said that people

who work on benefits do not work on

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a monthly or six weekly cycle, and

lots of people have been forced into

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arrears or forced to go to the

banks. If the Government says it

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will shorten the waiting time from

six weeks to five weeks, possibly to

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a month, will that be enough to

answer and deal with real problems

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are suffering?

I don't know, I'm not

an expert. The amount of money in

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the whole system has been

substantially reduced over recent

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years. George Osborne used it as a

cash cow, so putting more money in

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will surely help.

You would like to

see the amounts go up as well as the

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waiting time brought down to help

people who are on this benefit?

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Absolutely.

Otherwise, you think the

policy's success has been put at

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risk by the Government dragging its

feet, as critics say, other not

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doing anything about the

fermentation?

I think it is starting

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to do something about it. The

Government has already moved on

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paying for the phone call and a help

line and so on. These are minor

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adjustments that surely can be made,

but I think that putting more money

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into the pot is the major priority.

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Now, it's time for our daily quiz.

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The question for today is,

which senior minister -

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according to The Times -

has apparently been

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showing off in Cabinet,

using lots of technical terms

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and "long, economicky words" to

audition for the role of Chancellor?

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Was it a) Andrea Leadsom

audition for the role of Chancellor?

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Was it a) Andrea Leadsom

c) Liam Fox or d)

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Was it a) Andrea Leadsom

or d)

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Gavin Williamson?

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At the end of the show,

David will give us

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the correct answer.

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We've heard a lot about

the arguments surrounding the EU

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withdrawal bill being scrutinised

in the Commons over the last few

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days, but where are we with

the actual negotiations

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between the Britain and the EU?

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The European Union

has three red lines -

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a financial settlement,

citizens' rights and

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the Northern Irish border -

that have to be resolved before

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talks can progress on the UK's

final status deal.

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At the last round of negotiations

earlier this month, the EU gave

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the UK a two-week deadline

to clarify key issues and for talks

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to progress.

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Both sides agreed there had been

progress on the issue

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of settled status for EU citizens

in the UK after Brexit.

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On the financial settlement,

the EU still wants clarity

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from the UK in terms of what it's

willing to pay to meet financial

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commitments made as a member.

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The UK has said it "will honour

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commitments" but has not specified

whether that includes unpaid

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liabilities for projects,

or if that will cover pensions.

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The issue of the Irish border

between Northern Ireland and Ireland

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remains a serious challenge,

both sides say, with "frank

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discussions" continuing.

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David Davis has rejected suggestions

that Northern Ireland

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could have a separate status

from the rest of the UK and remain

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within the European customs union.

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He wants to "prevent a hard border"

and told House of Commons

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in September he was confident

the use of technology "will make it

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possible for the border to be

as light-touch as it is today."

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The UK's Brexit Secretary has played

down the two-week deadline,

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saying the key date

is the December European

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Council, on the 14th.

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Let's get more on this

with Adam Fleming, who is at his

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favourite haunt in Brussels,

the European Parliament.

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I was listening to the MEP Manfred

Weber yesterday. He was here, and a

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close colleague of Angela Merkel,

and he seemed to think that the mood

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was more optimistic, that he felt

that the conversation was positive

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with Theresa May, but still no green

light. What is the mood in Brussels?

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Manfred Weber was interesting, as

you were saying, because he because

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he said he had been given the

impression that the UK was prepared

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to make some movement towards the

EU, in other words, to secure

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sufficient progress at the next

summit in December so that phase two

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of the Brexit talks can begin, to

discuss trade, the relationship and

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the transition deal. Everyone

wondered what the Prime Minister

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said to him. The big theory at the

moment is that it was probably to do

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with citizens' rights, because that

is the European Parliament's main

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priority for the Brexit

negotiations. They are less

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concerned about the money and the

Northern Irish border than they are

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about peoples lives after Brexit. I

saw him do a conference the day

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before in Strasbourg where he said

he was pessimistic and didn't think

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that sufficient progress would be

made. Obviously, Theresa May said

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something to him which made him

change his mind and feel more

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chipper about how the process was

going.

Do you think, and is the

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impression in Brussels, that it will

be enough to unlock these

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negotiations or the stalemate and

move on to trade talks at that

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critical meeting in December?

Everyone here is waiting for some

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sort of smoke signal, hint, lying in

a speech, paragraph in a written

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ministerial statement, an answer in

an interview with David Davis or the

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Prime Minister that gives more

detail about what the UK meant when

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the Prime Minister said in her

Florence speech a couple of months

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ago that the UK would live up to its

financial obligations. The Brits

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thought that was enough to get them

over the line and get into phase two

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of the talks, but for the EU side,

that was not enough. They welcomed

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the warm words and the sentiments

that the UK would live up to its

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obligations made as a member, but

they want more detail, specific

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commitments being made to specific

things they have asked for in the

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discussions over the so-called

financial settlement, or the Brexit

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Bill, as it is known in the press.

That is what everyone is waiting

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for. And then we come back to this

issue of the Michel Barnier deadline

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that he has issued. He said last

Friday that he wanted that detail to

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be given in the next two weeks. The

reason he said that was because of

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the admin processes that the EU 27

going, that to be able to start and

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trigger the talks in December, they

need a bit more information on the

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UK in the next couple of weeks so

they control what documents and have

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their talks with the 27 capitals.

The content they want is more

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information about the money.

Adam,

in Brussels, no doubt we will speak

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soon.

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Earlier this morning,

I spoke to the Irish

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MEP and Vice President

of the European Parliament Mairead

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McGuinness, and I began

by asking her whether we should be

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optimistic about possible progress

in the Brexit negotiations.

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It's positive what my group leader

Manfred Weber has said,

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and I think that's welcome if he's

getting an indication that the UK

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and that Prime Minister May may be

moving to unlock this problem

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at the moment.

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You can't have a green light now,

because the negotiations have not

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moved on on the three core issues,

so I think that it's

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quite consistent.

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I'm a bit more hopeful today

as I speak to you than I might

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have been 24 hours ago.

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But then that has been the way these

negotiations have developed.

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There are some weeks

where you think yes,

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we're getting there,

and then there are other weeks,

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mainly because of the mood music

in the United Kingdom,

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where we feel quite the opposite

and we get quite concerned,

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but in fact we aren't making

sufficient progress

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--that in fact we aren't

making sufficient progress

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on the core issues.

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But it's not a one-way street,

is it, Mairead McGuinness?

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And as you have now reiterated

Manfred Weber's comments that

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you feel there is movement on the UK

side, what is the European Union

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offering in this negotiation

if there's been movement

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from the UK?

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Well, I think you're quite right,

nobody has ever said this

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was a one-way street.

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What it is is a divorce settlement.

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The United Kingdom democratically

have decided to leave

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the European Union.

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There are three issues for phase one

in the divorce settlement,

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including financial commitments,

citizens' rights, and the border

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issue, which is very

core to my constituency.

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And I think on many of these issues

the European Union has been

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absolutely clear on what it needs

to see happen, and we do need

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the content of the Prime Minister's

speech in Florence,

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which we all welcomed,

to be put into concrete

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proposals on the table.

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And then I think there

is room for negotiation,

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because Michel Barnier,

who leads the negotiations on behalf

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of the European Union,

is a very able individual

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and he wants to make progress.

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I think David Davis comes

with the same commitment.

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But clearly there is some problem,

and I have to repeat my concern

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that it appears to come from,

if you like, difficulties

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within the Conservative Party.

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I see front-page headlines

targeting individual MPs,

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and this doesn't help the process

of progress that we all want to see.

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Let's talk about the Irish border.

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As you say, very important

to you particularly.

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To avoid a hard border,

which all sides want,

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the European Commission has proposed

Northern Ireland having a separate

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status from the rest of the UK

and remaining in the customs union.

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That's been ruled out

by the UK Government.

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What other solution do you have?

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Well, I've been very clear,

and I've said this to Secretary

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of State Brokenshire recently,

and I'm saying it again,

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that if we want the situation

on the island of Ireland to remain

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as it is today, without any

borders or difficulties,

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then we stay as we are today.

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By that I mean that we respect

the decision of the United Kingdom

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to leave the European Union,

but that the United Kingdom

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stays in the customs

union and single market.

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So that, if you like,

avoids any complexities looking

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for technical solutions,

because I've tried to

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make this very clear...

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But that's been ruled

out, hasn't it?

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But with the greatest of respect

to red lines and ruling out,

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this is a much bigger issue.

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This is about the peace process

in the country I come from.

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This will affect very badly

the constituents that I serve.

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They are deeply traumatised

by the prospect of a hard Brexit.

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Why is having a border so important

to you in terms of customs?

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I'm sorry, I think I

misunderstood your question.

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We do not want a border,

it's very clear that if there's any

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idea of a break in the current

relationships or freedoms that exist

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on the island of Ireland today,

it will cause problems.

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And if you come to my region,

I welcome you to come and be

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with me in the region,

you will see posters,

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you will hear people

talking with deep concern.

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I met young people in Newry

from North and South just last

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Friday, listen to their voices,

they know the problems

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they will face if this goes wrong.

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So, again, I welcome

the idea that there might be

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some light this week,

and I think that's positive.

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But I have to be frank on the island

of Ireland question,

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and I think there's been an attempt

by some to say you can't give

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Northern Ireland, or break it off

from the United Kingdom,

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and I wouldn't dream

of attempting to do that.

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I respect things as they are.

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Which makes me come

back to my core point.

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The United Kingdom should remain

in the customs union to avoid

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a problem on the island of Ireland,

and then we can move

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to the wider trade issues,

which I have to say are deeply

0:14:440:14:46

of concern to me as well.

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So I think we have to marry

the political and economic,

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and I think we have to work very

hard politically to find a solution

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which doesn't damage us.

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Because Brexit, in my view, has

the capacity to damage both sides,

0:14:550:14:58

and we have to avoid that

at all costs.

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Mairead McGuinness, thank you.

0:15:020:15:07

Well, listening to that is

the former Secretary of State

0:15:070:15:10

for Northern Ireland,

Owen Paterson, who was a leading

0:15:100:15:12

campaigner for Brexit.

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There seems to be a disconnect here.

Mairead McGuinness said the UK

0:15:160:15:21

should stay inside the customs union

and the single market, and then all

0:15:210:15:25

the problems about Northern Ireland

and the border go away. But that

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hasn't been what the government has

been proposing. Who's not been

0:15:290:15:33

listening in this discussion?

You

have to recognise there is an

0:15:330:15:37

election coming up in the Republic

of Ireland. A lot of this is stated

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with a view to certainly keeping up

to the mark with Sinn Fein or

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putting gait pushing a strong

campaign on this. I think the Dublin

0:15:450:15:50

establishment is running scared. It

is extremely obvious from what the

0:15:500:15:55

pro minister has said we're going to

leave the single market, customs

0:15:550:15:58

union and European Court of Justice.

Biggest weight to destabilise

0:15:580:16:02

Northern Ireland is to have a crazy

suggestion of a border downbeat

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Irish Sea. I've been going to

Northern Ireland for nearly ten

0:16:050:16:13

years now nearly every week. There

is a border this morning. There's a

0:16:130:16:17

currency board, a VAT border, a tax

border. I haven't had a single

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business say to me the border

presents a problem. This is all

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solvable with modern technology.

There are other MEPs who have stated

0:16:270:16:31

in fairly agitated terms that there

has to be some way of checking goods

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that may come in from third

countries through into Britain and

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Northern Ireland. Where would that

check be?

It happens now. 1 million

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tonnes of goods go across UK roads

into the Republic of Ireland every

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year, we never see them.

But we are

all part of the EU at this point in

0:16:490:16:55

time. When we come out of the EU

where with those checks be? How

0:16:550:16:58

would you resolve this?

This is all

done on electronic systems. The

0:16:580:17:04

World Bank did a check and they

reckon less than 2% of goods are

0:17:040:17:08

physically checked. These goods are

well-established. North - South

0:17:080:17:15

business is about 5% of Northern

Ireland's sales. You have been

0:17:150:17:19

slight authorised economic

operators. The milk tankers that

0:17:190:17:22

take milk, there's probably one of

two operators and it's very easy to

0:17:220:17:29

license them.

They disagree. They

say technology cannot deal with the

0:17:290:17:33

issue as it is, hence they've made

this suggestion of a border in the

0:17:330:17:38

Irish Sea that would obviously

separate Northern Ireland from

0:17:380:17:42

Britain. Britain has rejected that,

but that is an option. As is staying

0:17:420:17:47

in the customs union.

But that is

not going to happen. We have voted

0:17:470:17:51

to leave. We are going to leave the

customs union, the single market and

0:17:510:17:55

the ECJ. When you look at the budget

showing the massive advantages,

0:17:550:18:02

every family across the UK is going

to be £300 better off by having

0:18:020:18:08

cheaper food and clothing. That

helps every single disadvantaged

0:18:080:18:11

family.

It still doesn't solve this

issue. She didn't sound as if she

0:18:110:18:16

was willing to compromise in any way

when it comes to trying to deal with

0:18:160:18:21

the border issue between Northern

Ireland and Ireland. Apart from the

0:18:210:18:25

technological solution you have, is

there anything else you have in your

0:18:250:18:28

pocket to try and unlock this part

of the negotiations?

It needs some

0:18:280:18:34

goodwill on behalf of the new Irish

government. Enda Kenny would have

0:18:340:18:37

been more reasonable about this. The

government are running scared of

0:18:370:18:41

Sinn Fein and running ahead of this.

That is the problem. There has to be

0:18:410:18:45

good will and a half of the Irish

government. There was a report a ago

0:18:450:18:52

by both houses of the Irish

government and they said we want to

0:18:520:18:55

keep the Common travel area and easy

movement of goods and services.

On

0:18:550:18:59

the money, it was clear from that

interview that Mairead McGuinness

0:18:590:19:03

and Manfred Weber said yesterday

they want concrete proposals from

0:19:030:19:07

the Florence speech. The hints of

more money being offered by the UK

0:19:070:19:11

Government. Michael Gove sort of

said in the interview last week that

0:19:110:19:15

that is what the British government

should do. Is he right?

It's

0:19:150:19:20

extraordinary to be talking about

money now before we know what the

0:19:200:19:22

end arrangement is.

Would you be

prepared to do it?

The House of

0:19:220:19:29

Lords committee say there are no

legal obligations if we leave now.

0:19:290:19:32

We should come to the arrangement

and then see what we own. There will

0:19:320:19:38

be things like Horizon and

programmes we will carry on. If

0:19:380:19:41

there are legally binding

obligations we will pay them.

How

0:19:410:19:44

would you react if Theresa May says

before December we are putting

0:19:440:19:48

another 20 billion year raised or

pounds on the table?

I think that

0:19:480:19:52

would be and why is. So far the

European Union has trousered every

0:19:520:19:59

one of her concessions. She made a

most generous speech in Florence. We

0:19:590:20:05

should give them two weeks and say

we assume you aren't going to talk

0:20:050:20:10

about the end economic relationship.

If you don't agree, we will assume

0:20:100:20:13

we are going to WTO terms.

So no

Deal.

It's not no deal. Much better

0:20:130:20:20

would be to have reciprocal free

trade with no tariffs. If they come

0:20:200:20:23

back and talk to us about that that

would be a much better solution.

You

0:20:230:20:27

say it would be unwise, would you do

anything?

She's been very generous,

0:20:270:20:32

I wouldn't give any more

concessions.

Mairead McGuinness

0:20:320:20:35

mentioned it was division within the

Conservative Party that is actually

0:20:350:20:40

a problem as far as these

negotiations are concerned. Does she

0:20:400:20:43

have a point?

Only a partial point.

Looking at the bigger picture at the

0:20:430:20:49

moment, we have this extraordinary

situation in which we voted for

0:20:490:20:52

Brexit but we didn't vote for any

particular kind of Brexit. So the

0:20:520:20:57

government and the half of itself,

on behalf of the Conservative Party

0:20:570:21:01

and the whole country, is having a

semipublic negotiation about what

0:21:010:21:05

kind of Brexit we want, while at the

same time negotiating it. So it is

0:21:050:21:09

bound to look messy. I think we

already have the outlines some kind

0:21:090:21:14

of. People behind their hands with

say I've heard on good authority

0:21:140:21:21

that Michel Barnier Binks the Irish

border issue is soluble. I mean,

0:21:210:21:25

that is so much an issue of

political will that the Swiss

0:21:250:21:32

minister was before a select

committee the other day saying

0:21:320:21:35

precisely that. There are technical

solutions to these things, it

0:21:350:21:39

requires political will. Nobody

wants to see a hard border

0:21:390:21:42

returning.

Let's talk about the

Telegraph singling out Tory MPs as

0:21:420:21:49

Brexit mutineers. Was that helpful?

I suppose it makes them think about

0:21:490:21:53

what they're doing because of them

have clear beliefs about this. There

0:21:530:21:57

is political consequence of this

that they could possibly jeopardise

0:21:570:22:02

the bill, which is extraordinary as

most of them voted for Article 50

0:22:020:22:06

which set a very clear two-year

deadline. Personally I think having

0:22:060:22:10

the date is a good idea because

we've got to bring compression to

0:22:100:22:14

the commission to start proper talks

about the end relationship. We all

0:22:140:22:17

ideally want reciprocal free trade

with zero tariffs. It's ridiculous

0:22:170:22:23

they aren't talking about that.

Having a date puts pressure on them.

0:22:230:22:27

We have to take a serious decision,

if they aren't going to talk about

0:22:270:22:31

this we have to decide we will

assume we are going to the WTO.

So

0:22:310:22:36

you see them as being obstructive

and you would describe them in terms

0:22:360:22:39

that they are not being patriotic?

This is a pretty boring bill. All

0:22:390:22:44

this is doing is... And it's an idea

I pushed four years ago. Turn the

0:22:440:22:53

whole corpus of European law into UK

law. Is what we did when we left

0:22:530:22:58

India, when we left Australia. It's

what the colony of Virginia did

0:22:580:23:01

before the revolution.

But they

don't like it, the point is they

0:23:010:23:05

aren't going to bite fitted.

So you

could get up at 3am and run an

0:23:050:23:11

abattoir, you have to have a

framework of law.

If it looks like

0:23:110:23:15

you are facing defeat, what should

be done?

There's a couple more weeks

0:23:150:23:21

until we have the vote. This

actually is a pretty boring techie

0:23:210:23:25

Bill converting EU law into UK law.

Thank you.

0:23:250:23:32

It's believed housing could be one

of the big themes of next week's

0:23:320:23:35

budget as the government tries

to give more of us a leg up

0:23:350:23:38

onto the housing ladder.

0:23:380:23:39

Theresa May has said

it is her "personal mission that

0:23:390:23:41

Britain builds more homes more

quickly" although how this will be

0:23:410:23:44

done is still unclear.

0:23:440:23:45

Earlier today Sajid Javid,

the Communities Secretary gave

0:23:450:23:47

what was dubbed a major speech

on housing and said

0:23:470:23:50

although progress had

been made this year,

0:23:500:23:51

with over 200,000 new homes built,

much more was needed.

0:23:510:23:55

217,000 net additions means 217,000

more people or families

0:23:550:24:00

with a roof over their heads.

0:24:000:24:06

217,000 places where people can put

down roots and build their life.

0:24:060:24:13

But fixing the broken housing market

will require a much larger effort.

0:24:130:24:16

The figures that have been released

today show that we have started

0:24:160:24:21

to turn things around,

but they are only a small step,

0:24:210:24:27

I believe, in the right direction.

0:24:270:24:30

What we now need is a giant leap.

0:24:300:24:34

We asked to speak to a housing

minister or a Government

0:24:340:24:37

representative, but none

was available.

0:24:370:24:41

Joining me instead is

the Conservative MP Chris Philp,

0:24:410:24:43

and the property developer

and television

0:24:430:24:45

presenter Sarah Beeny.

0:24:450:24:48

Welcome. Chris Philp, George Osborne

famously said "We are the party of

0:24:480:24:55

builders". When you look at the

figures, you haven't been, have you?

0:24:550:25:00

We have made enormous progress. When

Labour were in office they completed

0:25:000:25:06

125,000 houses...

When was that?

2009-10. We are now up to 217,000

0:25:060:25:14

completions this year. It's almost

doubled. However as Sajid Javid said

0:25:140:25:19

it's not enough. We need to do more.

We need to be building 250 or maybe

0:25:190:25:25

even 300,000 housing units a year to

catch up with a deficit of housing

0:25:250:25:29

that Labour left behind. A lot of

progress but there's more to do.

0:25:290:25:32

Except you've been in power for the

last seven years and you've still

0:25:320:25:36

not reached that 250,000 target that

your own white Paper says is

0:25:360:25:40

required. You're still short of it

this year and been way of it for the

0:25:400:25:44

last seven.

We are slightly short.

It's been steadily increasing.

A

0:25:440:25:50

very low bar.

That's why the

government has committed £9 billion

0:25:500:25:54

to social housing which is a

staggeringly large sum of money...

0:25:540:25:58

How many extra homes will the £2

billion that Theresa May announced

0:25:580:26:02

before the speech, it worked out of

how many?

The package as a whole is

0:26:020:26:07

£9 billion. That isn't the anything

we are doing. The housing White

0:26:070:26:12

Paper last year is designed to help

free up the planning system. I think

0:26:120:26:15

next week in the budget we will hear

more.

What would you like to hear in

0:26:150:26:19

the budget on housing?

I think I'd

like to see really more thought, a

0:26:190:26:27

lot more thought put into Howell,

instead of building houses where

0:26:270:26:33

there is too much demand at the

moment, why don't we really try and

0:26:330:26:38

consider spreading people out across

the country and building houses...

0:26:380:26:43

The problem I have is there's a

massive concentration of people

0:26:430:26:47

living in the south-east which we

all know. Building more houses in

0:26:470:26:50

the south-east isn't going to bring

house prices down. What we have is

0:26:500:26:57

an affordability problem. It's not a

housing shortage, it's affordable

0:26:570:27:01

housing shortage.

There is a housing

shortage to.

Is there really?

In

0:27:010:27:07

terms of demand in London and the

south-east and people moving jobs,

0:27:070:27:11

isn't there a shortage as well as an

affordability problem?

There is an

0:27:110:27:15

argument that if there was a

shortage of housing you wouldn't be

0:27:150:27:18

able to find a house for sale and if

you look online there are lots of

0:27:180:27:22

houses for sale. There's a shortage

of houses that people can afford to

0:27:220:27:25

buy. What we are really talking

about is a house price issue not a

0:27:250:27:31

shortage of actual houses.

Do you

agree in terms of building homes

0:27:310:27:35

away from the concentrations like

London and the south-east where they

0:27:350:27:38

have traditionally been built in

large numbers?

We do need to spread

0:27:380:27:42

housing around. We need to make sure

our northern cities are being

0:27:420:27:45

invested in. Things like the

Northern Power has project and HS2.

0:27:450:27:52

I think there is a supply issue as

well as an affordability issue. We

0:27:520:27:56

need to be creative about where we

build. We need to make sure every

0:27:560:28:01

spare piece of brown field is built

on. Transport for London have 6000

0:28:010:28:06

acres Brownfield land.

It is

expensive to access that.

It can be.

0:28:060:28:12

There is £2 billion designed to

unlock it. It may be expensive but

0:28:120:28:15

we need to grip the problem and get

on with it and build on that land

0:28:150:28:19

because houses are so badly needed.

I would like to see any public land

0:28:190:28:23

that is ever sold, our land that we

all own, when it sold I would like

0:28:230:28:28

to see it only being sold at... The

problem is the price it ends up

0:28:280:28:34

being worth means that people are

forced to build houses that and

0:28:340:28:41

affordable. Why can't we cap

affordable house prices and make

0:28:410:28:46

house prices stay affordable

permanently? When we sell public

0:28:460:28:49

land it can only ever be built on

with houses that are affordable and

0:28:490:28:54

stay affordable.

That's an idea I've

heard and we should look at doing

0:28:540:28:58

that. I am excited about the

possibility of bringing forward more

0:28:580:29:02

public sector land. Network Rail

have lots of land, the MoD...

What

0:29:020:29:08

about affordability? When people

talk about affordable housing and

0:29:080:29:11

you look at prices of new homes,

they aren't affordable really,

0:29:110:29:15

certainly not to a first-time buyer

unless you've got a great big

0:29:150:29:19

deposit or the bank of mum and dad.

The help to buy scheme is designed

0:29:190:29:22

to give people a boost to their

mortgage. They only require a 5%

0:29:220:29:27

deposit. Generally speaking you are

right. Pricing is a function of

0:29:270:29:33

supply and demand. There is massive

demand and not enough supply. That's

0:29:330:29:37

why prices are so high. The root

cause of this is increasing supply.

0:29:370:29:41

That's what the housing White Paper

and budget next week will do.

I

0:29:410:29:45

think Sarah has a point. Britain has

two infrastructure problems. In

0:29:450:29:50

London and the south-east it is

housing or housing affordability. In

0:29:500:29:53

the Midlands and the north it is

transport infrastructure. It's not

0:29:530:29:57

even say much about the big project,

Northern Powerhouse, but it's about

0:29:570:30:03

the little links. The connection

between Burnley and Lancashire. I

0:30:030:30:07

spoke to Yvette Cooper who said

there is only one train from her

0:30:070:30:12

constituency into Leeds every day.

If the great Northern and midland

0:30:120:30:16

towns revive even more than they

have done already, if they continue

0:30:160:30:23

to grow and flourish, and they will

do, then we can sort out some of

0:30:230:30:27

those infrastructure links and the

pressure of people coming down to

0:30:270:30:31

the south-east will be relieved

partly.

0:30:310:30:36

on that issue, without transport

links, can you build those homes

0:30:360:30:39

elsewhere in the country if there

are isolated pockets aren't well

0:30:390:30:43

served by transport links?

There are

a lot of affordable homes already

0:30:430:30:46

that nobody can get, so we don't

necessarily need to build more

0:30:460:30:51

homes, we just need to get the

people to the homes, and that means

0:30:510:30:55

the infrastructure, it needs the

jobs there, the schools and

0:30:550:30:58

hospitals, and that will stop the

concentration. If you invest in

0:30:580:31:02

business outside London, where the

houses are, then the people will

0:31:020:31:07

follow the jobs.

In terms of land

you could build on, builders like

0:31:070:31:11

green belt - should it be built on

more?

It is precious and it improves

0:31:110:31:16

the quality of life for people who

live on the edge of large cities,

0:31:160:31:21

including my own constituents in

Croydon South.

Isn't that the

0:31:210:31:26

problem, councils in constituencies

such as yours will block this?

Green

0:31:260:31:30

belt covers a large area, and you

could look to see if there are bits

0:31:300:31:34

that are not what you and I would

imagine and do an audit of that. You

0:31:340:31:39

could also build higher in the

centre of town. Croydon town centre

0:31:390:31:44

is an ideal place to go up 20 or 30

stories, and it is very accessible

0:31:440:31:49

because the station has fantastic

links. The point Sarah made about

0:31:490:31:53

transport links is important, and if

we invest more in transport links

0:31:530:31:57

that bring people into those

northern cities like Manchester and

0:31:570:32:00

Leeds, that will help.

Should the

Government borrowed significant

0:32:000:32:05

amounts of money to do it?

It is

doing it already. We have a £35

0:32:050:32:14

billion capital spending programme.

There is Crossrail. We are building

0:32:140:32:19

HS2, one of the biggest high-speed

rail projects in the world. And we

0:32:190:32:22

are spending on affordable housing.

Is it enough or should they be

0:32:220:32:27

spending more?

Or allowing local

authorities to borrow more or

0:32:270:32:33

encouraging housing associations and

local authorities. One bit of the

0:32:330:32:36

housing market that works well is

student accommodation. Student halls

0:32:360:32:40

of residence are going up across the

country all the time, so it is

0:32:400:32:44

clearly possible to do.

Councils -

are they an obstruction?

The

0:32:440:32:55

planning system is actually have

gone backwards. I would like to see

0:32:550:32:58

individuals being ... It being much

simpler to get planning permission.

0:32:580:33:06

In the process has been made much

harder for individuals and much more

0:33:060:33:09

complicated than it used to be.

Another thing I would love to see

0:33:090:33:14

years, you used to be able to go to

your local authority and ask the

0:33:140:33:19

planning department whether you were

likely to get planning for something

0:33:190:33:24

or not, and now you need to pay for

that, which pushes away individuals

0:33:240:33:29

from perhaps doing development

because they have to pay for advice.

0:33:290:33:32

I think that's crazy if we actually

want people to... We are better off

0:33:320:33:36

with people doing building work

individually rather than just a

0:33:360:33:42

developers. Individuals actually

employ people who live locally, and

0:33:420:33:45

that's good, gets the world moving.

Thank you to both of you for coming

0:33:450:33:49

in, and we will no doubt hear more

about housing in the budget.

0:33:490:33:53

Next week, we need an emergency

budget to save our public services,

0:33:530:33:56

according to Shadow Chancellor John

McDonnell.

0:33:560:33:57

This morning he's made five demands

to the Chancellor, Philip Hammond,

0:33:570:34:00

including more cash to public

services and serious

0:34:000:34:02

infrastructure funding,

all to be funded by more borrowing.

0:34:020:34:04

Here's a flavour of

what he had to say.

0:34:040:34:13

Cuts to public spending damage the

whole of society. And when a

0:34:130:34:18

Government, as the Tories did, cut

research funding by £1 billion, it

0:34:180:34:22

has real economic consequences. When

they cut investment spending by

0:34:220:34:29

nearly 20 billion, it has an impact

on business. Investment in the UK is

0:34:290:34:33

the third lowest of any major

developed economy, head of only

0:34:330:34:39

Portugal and Greece. Public spending

on transport is the very lowest at

0:34:390:34:44

the developed economies. Without the

investment, you don't get the new

0:34:440:34:50

equipment and technology that can

sustain growth. It means skilled

0:34:500:34:54

people and those with talent and

ideas across the whole country are

0:34:540:34:58

not realising their potential. And

businesses cannot grow as they

0:34:580:35:02

should.

0:35:020:35:04

Listening to that is the Shadow

Treasury Minister Anneliese Dodds.

0:35:040:35:10

She is here with me now. How much

money can labour guarantee it will

0:35:100:35:14

be able to extract from the big

corporations and the super-rich?

In

0:35:140:35:20

our manifesto, we set out very

clearly the fact that, for example,

0:35:200:35:24

we felt that £70 billion was being

squandered on tax cuts through

0:35:240:35:28

corporation tax and for the very

richest earners as well, by altering

0:35:280:35:33

the system for the highest earners.

We think that money could be much

0:35:330:35:36

better spent on growth- promoting

investment, like that that John was

0:35:360:35:42

talking about.

Can you guarantee

that you will get that kind of

0:35:420:35:45

money? It is a big pot of money you

are talking about, but when you look

0:35:450:35:49

at the detailing your manifesto and

the costings, you are relying on

0:35:490:35:53

more money coming from tax avoidance

that you think is still out there,

0:35:530:35:58

and getting that guaranteed stream

of revenue year-on-year.

There will

0:35:580:36:02

be debate about some of the detail,

I accept, but Labour set all the bat

0:36:020:36:08

out at the general election. The

Conservatives didn't. The only

0:36:080:36:11

numbers in their manifesto were the

page numbers. We set up where the

0:36:110:36:15

money would come from, and there has

been a debate about elements of it,

0:36:150:36:18

which is healthy. We encourage that.

We feel, on the fundamentals, yes,

0:36:180:36:24

we absolutely can pay for these

investments, and we think we have to

0:36:240:36:27

because we are doing so badly as a

country now when it comes to

0:36:270:36:31

investment. We have to deal with it

radically.

Do you agree that the

0:36:310:36:42

country is doing badly and so needs

this emergency injection of cash,

0:36:420:36:44

which is really just based on their

manifesto?

The country is growing

0:36:440:36:47

less fast than it might be.

Obviously there is the Brexit

0:36:470:36:50

shadow. We are still in a slow

recovery path from the financial

0:36:500:36:54

crisis. But yes, we have

historically been a short-term

0:36:540:37:02

economy in terms of private

investment. We have never been big

0:37:020:37:06

investors. Anyway that governments

can help stimulate that is surely a

0:37:060:37:10

good thing. There is a complete

cross-party consensus on bringing

0:37:100:37:15

money in from tax avoidance. All

parties have always agreed, and I

0:37:150:37:20

think you may be slightly a victim

of your own ideology that the Tory

0:37:200:37:27

Party are protecting their

super-rich friends. It is nonsense.

0:37:270:37:30

If it was easy to get money out of

corporations and rich individuals, I

0:37:300:37:34

think any Government would have done

it. Elements talk about it and try

0:37:340:37:39

to do it.

I sat through the debates

around the Finance Bill that we have

0:37:390:37:42

just had. There were some very well

thought through measures that Labour

0:37:420:37:47

was arguing for is part of those

debates of which the Government

0:37:470:37:50

refused to accept, measures that are

in place in countries very similar

0:37:500:37:53

to Britain. You have to acknowledge,

we have a specific UK problem that

0:37:530:37:57

isn't afflicting other economies. We

are the only growing economy where

0:37:570:38:01

people's living standards haven't

been increasing.

Let's pick up on

0:38:010:38:06

that issue. The unions have called

for a 3.9% pay rise to some parts,

0:38:060:38:12

or all parts, I think a the public

sector, particularly now that the

0:38:120:38:16

Government has signalled an end to

the freeze. The user pot that?

We

0:38:160:38:20

think there should be rises in line

with inflation, but ultimately it

0:38:200:38:24

should be the pay review bodies that

possess that.

They are guided by

0:38:240:38:29

governments, and presuming that you

were the Government, would you be

0:38:290:38:33

advising 3.9% pay rises, as the

unions have said, because you say

0:38:330:38:37

you want it to be above inflation?

We had a load of these discussions,

0:38:370:38:46

and even in this chair at the time,

when this came up in front of

0:38:460:38:49

Parliament. We said we think the pay

review bodies need to be freed from

0:38:490:38:52

the shackles they have. They need to

look at recruitment challenges. If

0:38:520:38:54

they end up saying, you need a rise

of that magnitude to deal with

0:38:540:38:58

recruitment... I don't want to say a

figure, which I think would be

0:38:580:39:04

artificial.

People will want to know

what you are proposing, and what you

0:39:040:39:08

would support, so all I'm asking is,

would you be prepared, whether it is

0:39:080:39:12

the pay review bodies that will

suggest it, freed from the shackles,

0:39:120:39:17

as you describe, would labour be

prepared to back that level of pay

0:39:170:39:22

rise?

The point is, we don't want

this politicised in the way the

0:39:220:39:26

Government has made it. We think

that pay has to

0:39:260:39:38

keep in line with costs, and we want

the independent pay review bodies to

0:39:380:39:41

do that. We set out how we would pay

for it, some months ago, and unless

0:39:410:39:44

we get a grip on this, we will see

the situation continuing come off

0:39:440:39:47

when nurses have to have a second

job.

It might help with retention.

0:39:470:39:55

How much would it cost?

The

Government's own figures said they

0:39:550:39:59

thought they would save £5 billion

over format years. It is 1.25

0:39:590:40:07

billion every year, in practice, to

get us towards the direction we are

0:40:070:40:13

travelling in. -- over foul-mac

years. -- over four. Some people are

0:40:130:40:27

leaving professions because they are

not paid enough.

A lot of the things

0:40:270:40:30

being talked about by yourself and

John McDonnell would not be just

0:40:300:40:33

borrowing to invest, it would be a

lot of extra public spending, on

0:40:330:40:39

schools, health, public sector pay,

children's services, and that would

0:40:390:40:43

be current, day-to-day spending,

wouldn't it?

Where we need

0:40:430:40:46

additional spending, that is

sensible. It's not like we are in a

0:40:460:40:51

situation at the moment where the

Government hasn't increased

0:40:510:40:54

spending. If you look at spending on

some of the areas of benefits, it

0:40:540:40:58

has been going up because people's

incomes have been going down. I

0:40:580:41:02

don't think we should suggest that

currently the Government hasn't

0:41:020:41:07

increased spending. It has.

But we

are talking about labour, and I am

0:41:070:41:12

saying that your current day-to-day

spending would go up to paper the

0:41:120:41:15

things you want to do.

Yes, but we

have explained where that will come

0:41:150:41:19

from. We try to beat transparent

about it.

In terms of welfare, the

0:41:190:41:25

Shadow Chancellor talked about

children in poverty and poverty in

0:41:250:41:28

general, but labour is only

committed to reversing one third of

0:41:280:41:33

the Government's £12 billion welfare

cuts. If it is so desperate, why

0:41:330:41:37

aren't you reversing all of them?

When it comes to Universal Credit,

0:41:370:41:42

this new approach to benefits,

packaging five into one, it is not

0:41:420:41:46

just about the spending levels but

about getting that system to work. I

0:41:460:41:50

think it wouldn't be

0:41:500:42:01

sensible at this stage to say,

right, we will totally change that

0:42:030:42:06

system again. We have had so much

change.

So not all of the welfare

0:42:060:42:08

cuts have been a bad thing? You are

not going to reverse more than a

0:42:080:42:11

third, as you say.

We need to have a

review of Universal Credit. There

0:42:110:42:14

are things that can be done now to

make that system worked far better,

0:42:140:42:17

for example, the fact that the work

allowance has been cut means that

0:42:170:42:20

you are not better off in work than

you would have been under the

0:42:200:42:22

original plans.

Isn't this the point

at this time as Labour is

0:42:220:42:25

indicating, that austerity, to use

the word that was used by the

0:42:250:42:30

Conservatives, that it is time to

end it and reset the narrative on

0:42:300:42:34

the economy and spent on the public

sector?

I think they can take their

0:42:340:42:40

foot off the pedal a bit. In

2009-10, the deficit was 10% of GDP

0:42:400:42:45

or something, and it is now down to

2-3%. We are moving in the right

0:42:450:42:51

direction. The total public debt to

GDP is just about hitting 90%.

It is

0:42:510:42:59

about 88.

I think they have to still

talk tough up to a point, but I

0:42:590:43:04

think they can and probably will

take their foot off the pedal.

But

0:43:040:43:08

you have some sympathy for the

Labour position?

Yes, but the

0:43:080:43:11

problem is that if you go rapidly in

the other direction, you build up

0:43:110:43:15

the stock of debt. You might quote

Japan at me. Japan has 220% of GDP

0:43:150:43:22

as public debt, but it is a high

saving country. All of the people

0:43:220:43:27

who lend money to the Government are

Japanese, and nearly one third of

0:43:270:43:32

our public debt is in foreign hands.

They will stop supporting Britain

0:43:320:43:37

and you will have a 1981 Francois

Mitterrand situation. You will have

0:43:370:43:42

to do a U-turn.

You should agree

that we should not just be looking

0:43:420:43:49

at spending but at revenue as well.

If you look at the falls in revenue,

0:43:490:43:53

because of low pay and because of

cuts the corporation and the highest

0:43:530:43:57

rates of income tax, if we reverse

that, we can build up revenue, which

0:43:570:44:01

is a sustainable way of getting to

the place we want.

Lope has fallen

0:44:010:44:07

for the first time in 15 years.

It

depends -- low pay. It depends how

0:44:070:44:17

you calculate it.

We will have to

end it there.

0:44:170:44:19

Not that long ago Labour in Scotland

dominated the political landscape

0:44:190:44:22

in a way that today they can only

dream of, both in

0:44:220:44:25

Edinburgh and London.

0:44:250:44:26

Now however they face an SNP

government that's been in power

0:44:260:44:29

for ten years and a resurgant

Scottish Conserative party

0:44:290:44:31

under Ruth Davidson.

0:44:310:44:32

Under this backdrop

the Scottish Labour Party

0:44:320:44:34

are electing a new leader.

0:44:340:44:35

Here's Elizabeth Glinka with more.

0:44:350:44:37

MUSIC: "Needle in a Haystack"

by The Velvelettes.

0:44:370:44:42

If Scottish Labour was on a dating

website, its status might

0:44:420:44:45

read "it's complicated".

0:44:450:44:47

There have been five

leaders since 2008.

0:44:470:44:50

When Kezia Dugdale took over

in 2015 it was described

0:44:500:44:53

as the worst job in politics.

0:44:530:44:56

Now, another new leader is due to be

announced this weekend.

0:44:560:45:03

This is a classic contest

in the Labour Party

0:45:030:45:05

between the left and the right.

0:45:050:45:07

Richard Leonard is the left

candidate backed by the Corbynistas,

0:45:070:45:10

although he's not a Corbynista

himself, he's an old-fashioned

0:45:100:45:12

trade unionist.

0:45:120:45:17

His younger opponent Anas Sarwar

is much better known.

0:45:170:45:19

He has the backing of more

more parliamentarians

0:45:190:45:21

than Richard Leonard,

and he got off to a bad start.

0:45:210:45:27

But since then he seems to have

found his feet a bit.

0:45:270:45:30

He may have found his feet,

but the former MP and now MSP has

0:45:300:45:34

faced some challenges.

0:45:340:45:36

From his children's private

education to his family's business.

0:45:360:45:41

But meeting volunteers at this

charity in Edinburgh,

0:45:410:45:43

he bristled at the idea

that he was the

0:45:430:45:45

establishment candidate.

0:45:450:45:46

It's fantastic.

0:45:460:45:48

A 34-year-old from the West

of Scotland, second generation

0:45:480:45:50

migrant Muslim is now

somehow the establishment.

0:45:500:45:54

That shows you where our politics

has got two in Scotland.

0:45:540:45:57

I'm not the establishment's

choice in this contest.

0:45:570:46:00

I'm not someone who wants

to fight for the status quo.

0:46:000:46:03

I'm someone that recognises

that our political system is broken,

0:46:030:46:05

our economic system is broken,

our social system is broken,

0:46:050:46:09

and that's why we need radical,

bold, but also credible change

0:46:090:46:12

in our country.

0:46:120:46:15

Meanwhile, his opponent who is vying

to become the first Englishman

0:46:150:46:17

to lead Scottish Labour,

is keen to eschew the Corbynista

0:46:170:46:20

tag, despite having senior Corbyn

aides now running his campaign.

0:46:200:46:27

I'm a bit long in the tooth

to be a Corbynista.

0:46:270:46:29

I've been a member of the Labour

Party since the early 1980s.

0:46:290:46:32

There are some similarities,

dare I say, with Jeremy Corbyn

0:46:320:46:35

in the sense that I've

been pretty consistent.

0:46:350:46:39

My views have been consistent,

my political principles and values

0:46:390:46:42

haven't really changed,

and that is meant from time

0:46:420:46:47

to time I've been a bit off

message or out of fashion.

0:46:470:46:52

But I've stuck to my views

and I think that they are things

0:46:520:46:55

that give authenticity

and credibility to leadership.

0:46:550:46:57

But this internal battle may seem

a little academic when you remember

0:46:570:46:59

that Labour is the third party

in Scottish politics,

0:46:590:47:02

behind the SNP and the resurgent

Tories under Ruth Davidson.

0:47:020:47:06

Whomever wins, they're

going to have a real uphill struggle

0:47:060:47:09

on their hands before the next

Scottish Parliament

0:47:090:47:11

elections in 2021.

0:47:110:47:21

Both those candidates seem to define

themselves against the SNP.

0:47:210:47:24

And actually, for the Labour Party

in Scotland right now,

0:47:240:47:26

the problem is not the SNP.

0:47:260:47:27

The problem is trying to get ahead

of the Tories and Ruth Davidson.

0:47:270:47:31

Richard Leonard or Anas Sarwar's big

problem is going to be

0:47:310:47:33

that they are up against two

of the most formidable political

0:47:330:47:36

operators not just in Scotland

but in the UK scene.

0:47:360:47:39

In the event of victory,

both men have spoken with passion

0:47:390:47:42

about uniting the party.

0:47:420:47:44

We'll find out on Saturday who's

been deemed Mr Right.

0:47:440:47:51

I'm pleased to say Sarah Smith

joins me now from Glasgow.

0:47:510:47:57

Whoever wins, how much of a

difference will it make to Labour's

0:47:570:48:01

fortunes in Scotland?

It will be

very interesting to see if they can

0:48:010:48:06

open up a different debate. You look

at both of these candidates, they

0:48:060:48:11

are broadly seen as left and right.

Both of them have come up with more

0:48:110:48:16

radical tax plans than Jeremy

Corbyn's manifesto in the general

0:48:160:48:19

election. Anas Sarwar is talking

about a 50p top rate starting at

0:48:190:48:25

£100,000 a year. Richard Leonard

talks about a one-off windfall

0:48:250:48:28

wealth tax on the better off in

Scotland. What they hope is that by

0:48:280:48:36

espousing policies more radical than

those Jeremy Corbyn promotes, that

0:48:360:48:40

they can create a new audience in

Scotland. Maybe get some of the

0:48:400:48:43

young people who are energised and

excited by the idea of independence

0:48:430:48:47

to come back and support the Labour

Party.

That's interesting because

0:48:470:48:51

it's a difficult job. They are up

against Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth

0:48:510:48:55

Davidson.

Yes, it is one of the

toughest jobs there is in UK

0:48:550:49:01

politics where the Labour Party is

languishing in third place and

0:49:010:49:04

you've got to really strong

performers you have to try and go up

0:49:040:49:07

against. What the Labour Party has

to do is create the space for an

0:49:070:49:12

argument between Nicola Sturgeon and

Ruth Davidson. They haven't had much

0:49:120:49:16

of a hearing, not necessarily

because there's been anything wrong

0:49:160:49:19

with their leader but because of a

slightly confused position on the

0:49:190:49:23

constitution. The SNP obviously in

favour of independence, the Tories

0:49:230:49:27

the staunch defenders of the UK.

Labour desperately want to change

0:49:270:49:32

the subject, talking about tax,

benefits, poverty and inequality. If

0:49:320:49:36

they can do that they might get a

hearing.

Sarah Smith, I always ask

0:49:360:49:43

you to put your money on one of the

candidates. Richard Leonard was

0:49:430:49:46

always seen as the favourite. Is

that still the case?

He is still the

0:49:460:49:50

favourite at the bookies. His camp

appear more confident than Anas

0:49:500:49:55

Sarwar's team. They have a lot of

backing from the trade unions. Anas

0:49:550:50:02

Sarwar's camp say a lot of new

members of the Labour Party they

0:50:020:50:05

believe have signed up to support

him but their votes could be dwarfed

0:50:050:50:09

by the union affiliates and

registered supporters who presumably

0:50:090:50:12

come in for Richard Leonard.

0:50:120:50:17

Are you from somewhere, or anywhere?

0:50:170:50:19

According to my guest of the day,

your answer will put

0:50:190:50:22

you on either one side,

or the other of one of major fault

0:50:220:50:25

lines running through politics.

0:50:250:50:27

Those who are from somewhere

are more rooted to where they live,

0:50:270:50:30

value security and are troubled

by high immigration.

0:50:300:50:32

If you're from anywhere you're more

mobile, better paid and more

0:50:320:50:34

comfortable with immigration.

0:50:340:50:37

It's a split that crosses political

parties, although in last year's

0:50:370:50:40

party conference speech Theresa May

embraced the idea, and left people

0:50:400:50:42

in no doubt which side she was on.

0:50:420:50:45

That spirit that means recognising

the social contract that says

0:50:450:50:48

you train up local young people

before you take on cheap

0:50:480:50:50

labour from overseas.

0:50:500:50:58

That spirit that means you do

as others do and pay

0:50:580:51:01

your fair share of tax.

0:51:010:51:02

But today...

0:51:020:51:03

APPLAUSE.

0:51:030:51:11

But today, too many people

in positions of power behave

0:51:110:51:16

as though they have more in common

with international elites

0:51:160:51:18

than with the people down the road,

the people they employ,

0:51:180:51:21

the people they pass on the street.

0:51:210:51:25

But if you believe you're

a citizen of the world,

0:51:250:51:27

you're a citizen of nowhere.

0:51:270:51:31

You don't understand what the very

word "citizenship" means.

0:51:310:51:33

Theresa May there in 2016.

0:51:330:51:34

Well, to discuss this we're joined

by The Guardian columnist

0:51:340:51:38

Jonathan Freedland -

and our guest of the day

0:51:380:51:41

David Goodhart has long had

an interest in these issues.

0:51:410:51:47

You used to be part of the liberal

metropolitan elite as you would

0:51:470:51:51

describe yourself, what changed?

I

became interested in questions of

0:51:510:51:56

national identity and immigration. I

wrote a book about immigration a few

0:51:560:52:01

years ago. I think I started to see

the world from a slightly different

0:52:010:52:06

perspective. I had assumed, like so

many people of my generation growing

0:52:060:52:12

up in the 60s and 70s, going to

university, I assumed that the

0:52:120:52:16

liberal litany was not only

righteous but was the way for the

0:52:160:52:21

future. You have two, obviously all

sensible people believe in openness,

0:52:210:52:28

autonomy, self-realisation. It

gradually dawned on me that very

0:52:280:52:32

large sections of our population

have completely different world

0:52:320:52:34

view. That doesn't mean to say they

are xenophobic or bad people. Some

0:52:340:52:38

of them may be. But many people want

basic, simple things. Stable

0:52:380:52:43

communities, secure borders,

national citizen rights before

0:52:430:52:47

universal rights. They want decent

outcomes for people who don't go to

0:52:470:52:53

university, decent narratives for

young kids who are not popping off

0:52:530:52:57

to universities. These basic things,

that seemed not any longer to be

0:52:570:53:04

part of the centre-left agenda. That

made me change my mind on some of

0:53:040:53:08

these things.

Do you think the

definition of somewhere and anywhere

0:53:080:53:13

is helpful in terms of understanding

the social trends or politics in the

0:53:130:53:16

UK?

0:53:160:53:20

It's a useful tool and been braced

by a lot of people. I don't think

0:53:200:53:24

the nowhere category was helpful. In

the context of leaf and remain it

0:53:240:53:29

essentially delegitimised Remainers

and conjured up the notion of

0:53:290:53:37

rootless cosmopolitan Zaza citizens

of nowhere, which is in idea with a

0:53:370:53:40

bad history. I think the categories

are to bald. Some of the trace hear

0:53:400:53:50

tributes to somewhere for example in

community cohesion and valuing

0:53:500:53:54

communal bonds, I think some of the

most anywhere parts of the country

0:53:540:53:58

exhibit those traits. Grenfell Tower

is once again in the news rightly

0:53:580:54:03

and Finsbury Park after that terror

attack. You saw communities of

0:54:030:54:07

diverse people coming together and

showing exactly the bonds of

0:54:070:54:10

community your model Mania tributes

to somewhere.

Minority communities

0:54:100:54:15

are often the most rooted and

grounded. The growth of the British

0:54:150:54:21

minority population acts as a bridge

in some ways between the anywhere

0:54:210:54:25

worldview and the somewhere

worldview. Jonathan and others have

0:54:250:54:30

made the reasonable point, and in

the introduction to my paperback

0:54:300:54:35

edition of the book I acknowledge

that. I'm not saying that anywheres

0:54:350:54:43

citizens of nowhere. They are not

just an elite. This is something I

0:54:430:54:48

keep emphasising. The educated and

mobile, and it's such an important

0:54:480:54:53

link in this country because of

residential universities partly.

0:54:530:54:57

People who have achieved identities.

They passed exams, went to good

0:54:570:55:02

universities, have more or less

successful careers. Those people

0:55:020:55:06

constitute a quarter of the

population. If you look at the value

0:55:060:55:10

and opinion data they are

consistently there across everything

0:55:100:55:14

from support for the EU to

immigration and so on.

They aren't

0:55:140:55:19

automatically disconnected from

what's around them.

We saw that in

0:55:190:55:21

the last election. The Bristol West,

the Manchester within short. They

0:55:210:55:27

aren't where they came from

originally but they've made new

0:55:270:55:31

communities.

That was my point,

largely, that they showed great

0:55:310:55:36

qualities of community cohesion. The

point about minorities is important.

0:55:360:55:39

Part of what the somewheres bemoan

is the idea that diversity has

0:55:390:55:46

imperilled their lives. I think the

model, as David describes it, buys

0:55:460:55:51

into too much of that notion that

minorities and diversity has

0:55:510:55:55

imperilled that life. I think

actually they exhibit just the kind

0:55:550:55:59

of community bonds you would want,

and therefore to cast newcomers and

0:55:590:56:04

minority communities as somehow the

crowd on the horizon is, I think,

0:56:040:56:08

unhelpful and also at variance with

the fact.

Which I don't do. You used

0:56:080:56:13

that phrase in your review of my

book and there's no evidence I use

0:56:130:56:19

that. It's to do with scale and pace

of change.

You say people object to

0:56:190:56:23

their communities being changed to

rapidly by mass immigration so you

0:56:230:56:26

are talking about the scale and pace

of change. Has immigration been bad

0:56:260:56:30

for society?

It's been good and bad.

For many people it's been far too

0:56:300:56:37

large and far too rapid. I think

that's indisputable and is one of

0:56:370:56:41

the reasons, probably the biggest

single reason we are leading the

0:56:410:56:46

European Union now, is because of

the way that freedom of movement has

0:56:460:56:50

operated. 1.5 million people came

over five years and changed the face

0:56:500:56:56

of many urban and suburban areas of

the country. Just too fast.

Do you

0:56:560:57:01

think that is, in some people's

mind, would be seen as

0:57:010:57:05

anti-immigration or even perhaps

racist?

Some people would cast it

0:57:050:57:09

that way. It's helpful if we can get

beyond that. I think it's so hard to

0:57:090:57:14

know that. So many of those

communities have so many other

0:57:140:57:19

problems. They've been left behind

economically, social neglect, etc.

0:57:190:57:23

The idea is certain that the change

in immigration often in places that

0:57:230:57:29

have experienced hardly any

immigration, that that is the root

0:57:290:57:32

of their problems. I agree it became

central in the referendum.

It's an

0:57:320:57:37

emblem.

It's an emblem of nostalgia

and gloss. That is real but is it

0:57:370:57:42

down to the fact society has got

more diverse? I'm not sure.

You come

0:57:420:57:47

from Barnsley, 40 years ago you

lived in one of the great coalfields

0:57:470:57:52

of Western Europe. But now you see

the national story has completely

0:57:520:57:56

passed you by. The focus is entirely

on the great metropolitan centres

0:57:560:58:00

with their large minority population

and you see that at a loss. You

0:58:000:58:04

don't have to be xenophobic to feel

a sense of loss.

The sense of loss

0:58:040:58:10

might be more of a shift from

Barnsley to the metropolitan area

0:58:100:58:13

and not because they've got more

diverse.

Who is more virtuous,

0:58:130:58:20

somewheres or anywheres?

Both

worldviews are entirely did it, we

0:58:200:58:23

have divine bridges between them --

are entirely legitimate.

0:58:230:58:28

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:280:58:31

The question was which Cabinet

minister has been showing off

0:58:310:58:34

in Cabinet while trying to audition

for the role of Chancellor?

0:58:340:58:36

Was it Andrea Leadsom,

Michael Gove, Liam Fox,

0:58:360:58:38

or Gavin Williamson?

0:58:380:58:39

So David, what's the correct answer?

0:58:390:58:41

That is very easy because I read the

Times, it is Michael Gove.

Well

0:58:410:58:44

done, you've got it! He did have a

favourite phrase which I can't

0:58:440:58:49

remember!

0:58:490:58:51

That's all for today.

0:58:510:58:52

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:520:58:56

Andrew will be back tonight

with This Week tonight.

0:58:560:58:58

Bye bye.

0:58:580:59:01

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