24/11/2017 Daily Politics


24/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May is in Brussels

to talk about security,

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and Brexit might just come up -

but while it may be "Black Friday"

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at the shops, can the prime minister

expect to get a discount

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on our divorce bill from the EU?

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A string of former defence chiefs

warn that Britain's armed forces

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risk being "hollowed out" -

should the government take

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seriously demands for more

spending on the military.

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The Conservatives claim they've been

the victim of "fake news"

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after reports circulate online

suggesting they don't believe

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animals feel pain or emotions.

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We'll talk to the MP Zac Goldsmith.

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Former Scottish Labour

leader Kezia Dugdale has

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survived her first appearance on I'm

a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here -

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but she missed out on the title

jungle prime minister and ended up

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cleaning the rainforest toilets.

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And we'll be joined

by the experimental musician who's

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been making waves after his latest

project challenging the backers

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of Brexit turned out to be in part

paid for from public funds.

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All that in the next hour

and joining me for all of it,

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two journalists we picked up

in a special 2-for-1

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Black Friday deal -

think of this show as the bargain

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basement of polticial

discussion - it's Rafael Behr

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and Melanie Phillips.

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Welcome to both of you.

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And from the premium range.

You are

good value.

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One woman who won't have had much

time for Christmas shopping this

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morning is prime minister

Theresa May, she's in Brussels

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to meet with her fellow EU leaders

where she's warning them to be wary

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of "hostile states like Russia".

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She's pledged the UK will stay

committed to European

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security after Brexit,

and although Brexit isn't

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on the official agenda it's

like to have come up at a meeting

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with European council

president Donald Tusk.

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Mr Tusk has called on the UK to show

more progress on the so-called

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"divorce bill" if trade talks

are to begin this year.

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Here's the Prime Minister.

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The summit here today is about

working with our eastern partners.

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But, of course, I will be

having other meetings.

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I will be seeing President Tusk

here today, talking

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about the positive discussions,

the positive negotiations

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we are having, looking

ahead to the future,

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it deepens the special

partnership that I want...

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Are you putting

a figure on the table?

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..That I want with

the European Union.

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These negotiations are continuing.

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What I'm clear about is that we are

going to step forward together.

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This is for both the UK and the EU

to move onto the next stage.

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Is now broadly accepted the Prime

Minister will now present a figure,

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even if it isn't in pounds, pens,

and viewers, but I financial offer

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to Donald Tusk?

Essentially, yes. --

pounds, pennies, and euros. We will

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pay something. The decision

ultimately hinges on how much of an

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outstanding budget is owed. Even if

they've isn't a figure, somebody

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will do the sums and say that it is

roughly 30, 40 billion. Everybody

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will want to avoid a headline number

everybody can point at. But it will

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be roughly more than the 20 billion

suggested.

How confident are you

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that talk of an improved financial

offer, if that is what we are

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talking about, will be met with an

agreement to move onto trade talks?

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Nobody in the circumstances can be

confident. It is smoke and mirrors.

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It's a poker game. We don't know how

it is being played. From what one

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reads it would appear that as the

deadline approaches minds are

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becoming concentrated. I've always

taken the view that the European

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Union has more to lose from a no

deal outcome. That isn't to say

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Britain doesn't have a lot to lose,

as well, but in my view the EU will

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be in a desperate situation if there

were no deal. I've always thought

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that the balance of power was on the

British side, the British

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negotiators' side. It hasn't seemed

to me that they are in agreement

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with that analysis themselves. What

concerns me is that they may be

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playing a strong hand very weakly.

In which case they will lose out.

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But one doesn't know. All of this is

fainting in the sense of smoke and

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mirrors. I would hope we don't know

what the actual negotiation position

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is. Because in this poker game they

have to keep everybody guessing.

It

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slightly overstate the value of the

UK Budget contribution to the entire

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EU budget position. The UK

Government position is that they

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want a deal. The decision has been

made by ministers and the Prime

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Minister that they no deal scenario

would be terrible...

But the threat

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of walking away, is that not a card

they hold?

It is a card they don't

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want to realistically play. All of

this stuff about no deal at bluffing

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is now separate. It was clear

already a month ago that as the UK

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moved a bit more on the money, and

the closer they would get to a deal.

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But it has now found a way of doing

that. And it is a continuation of

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the card game analogy, the wild card

is the question of the Irish border.

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Which was always one of the top

issues the commission said had to be

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resolved before moving onto trade

talks. What's important is that the

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UK behind the scenes will be

essentially saying we have more or

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less solved citizen rights. We have

more or less decided on the European

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Court of Justice...

The Irish border

will be a sticking point.

Exactly.

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Why there will be a lot of

conversations about security is they

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will say we've done two out of

three, the Irish border is a

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complicated issue. Can we just agree

to fudge the whole Irish question a

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little bit. But also going to EU

member states saying we know you

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want to support the Irish on this

but there isn't a deal that can be

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done on this. Can the UK Prime

Minister peel off the other 26

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members to say, sorry to Ireland,

you cannot have what you want right

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now, we must move on.

Fudging a

political position, who would have

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thought it!

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We've talked a lot this week about

what was in Phillip Hammond's Budget

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speech on Wednesday,

but today we're going to be talking

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about something that was rather

conspicuous by its absence -

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defence - and that's despite a group

of former Conservative defence

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ministers urging him to give more

money to the armed forces.

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Annual defence expenditure in the UK

has met the NATO benchmark

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of 2%, ever since records began ANI.

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However in recent years

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previously-excluded expenditure,

such as contributions to UN

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peacekeeping missions

as well as provisions for war

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pensions, have been included

to meet this target

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The government has promised

to increase Defence spending,

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although the department is already

committed to finding £20 billion

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of savings over the next 10 years

as part of an efficiency programme.

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The UK has the fifth biggest defence

budget in the world.

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With an army totalling

155,474, including Gurkhas

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and full-time reservists.

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However there are continuing reports

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of shortages of manpower

and equipment.

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This week HMS Diamond, a Type 45

destroyer costing £1 billion,

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had to head back to the UK after it

struggled with its

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engine warm water.

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That leaves all six Type 45

destroyers in port in the UK,

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awaiting refits to rectify problems

with their propulsion systems.

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And reports last month suggested

the Royal Marines could be

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cut by 1,000 personnel.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a mini-Defence

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and Security review looking

at military capabilities

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and funding up to 2022,

which will report back next month.

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We're joined now by the Conservative

MP and defence select committee

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Here is Lord Alan West

talking on the subject.

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These commitments demand

hard combat power.

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And I fear that our military

is being hollowed out to such an

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extent that we are no longer

capable of providing it.

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My Lords, few of our

population realise that STSR

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2010 cuts our military capability

by a third, by one third,

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it is quite extraordinary.

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And STSR 2015 has not resolved that.

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And the Americans have expressed

growing concern about

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this diminishing

military capability.

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Well we did ask to speak

to a minister this morning but it

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seems none was available,

however I'm pleased to say we're

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joined now by the Conservative MP

and defence select committee member

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Jonny Mercer, he's in our Plymouth

studio, and by the former Labour

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minister and former head of the navy

Alan West.

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Welcome. When you set the Armed

Forces are being hollowed out, what

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evidence do you have?

Effectively,

certain aspects of training have

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been stopped. Spare gear, spare

items, logistic type stuff is not

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available. The repair work that

needs to be done on complex

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equipment isn't being fully done or

properly done. It's a whole raft of

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those measures that have been taken

because, yes, they are saying let's

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find £70 billion worth of

efficiency. Since I've been in the

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Navy, I joined 52 years ago, we have

been finding efficiencies. Because

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governments always say that. There

comes a stage where there -- it

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isn't an efficiency thing. Cuts them

happen. And they are very large.

The

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Armed Forces have always said they

need more money to mitigate the

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expected cuts. I just said it is the

defence Budget in the world, it is

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still a big budget with a lot of

money behind it.

It is a big budget.

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We are the fifth or six largest

economy in the world, so it makes

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sense. We are also a permanent

member of the UN Security Council.

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We are there because our military

capability was one of the biggest

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powers in the Second World War. The

reason we hold key appointments

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within Nato is because the United

States and United Kingdom, up until

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recently, ensured really the defence

and security of Europe. We are the

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people who really did it. Now they

are saying, why should the UK have

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these senior jobs? Because we have

cut our defence capabilities so

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much.

What do you want to see in

this defence and Security review

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currently being conducted?

I hope it

will show we are in increasingly

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unpredictable and dangerous world.

Weren't we always?

I think it is

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more so. There was a certain

stability even back during the Cold

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War. It's become more unpredictable

and more chaotic. I'm sure it will

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show that. And I hope it will say

that we need to apply some real

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funding to this, not 2% done with

smoke and mirrors, but by including

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things... You cannot kill enemies

with civilian war pensions, I'm

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afraid. You need combat power.

Do

you think those efficiency savings

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should be scrapped?

I think it's

always right to look for

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efficiencies. It's always right look

to see if there is a better way of

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doing things. You are right about

the size of the Budget. We've always

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had concerns about procurement. We

should look in procurement area. I

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think to assume that the way you are

going to be able to pay for

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equipment you have ordered is by

efficiencies is a recipe for

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disaster.

You brought up the

procurement issue. The MOD has a

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poor track record when it comes to

procurement. We talked about the

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type 45 destroyer, it cost £1

billion in 2005 to 2007, now the

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engine will not work in hot water,

so all six destroyers are in the

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port. Is our procurement strategy

just incompetent?

I don't think so.

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Things can be improved on there. The

type 45 comedies and billion pounds

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each, the programme was £6.2 billion

for what ended up as six ships. --

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the type 45, you said was £1 billion

each. It was initially meant to be

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12 ships. What we keep doing is make

political decisions which add to

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costs. The aircraft carriers were £2

million more expensive because when

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the crash came Gordon Brown's

government delayed them by about a

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year and a half. But adds cost.

Political decisions have hit

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procurement and caused problems.

Were you surprised that there was

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not mention of defence in the

Budget?

I wasn't. I've always

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thought offence was the poor

relation in terms of government

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policy and government priorities. To

me, defence is the single most

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important requirement of a

government, to defend the country.

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It should be given high priority.

Do

you think we are exposed?

Always.

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The challenges are changing all the

time as Lord West says. In recent

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years, in recent decades, I think

politicians have come to believe,

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which I think is probably true, that

among the public there is no sense

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of urgency about defence. And more

than that, a distaste for defence.

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Difference doesn't mean defence, it

means killing people. -- defence

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doesn't mean. I think the country

has become pacifist. Dangerously so.

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It is unwilling to go to war.

Do you

agree?

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It's reasonable to not want to go to

war, but where Melanie is right if

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there is important historical

context. After the Cold War, it felt

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as if there was a peace dividend,

the world was safer and therefore

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there was more money available to

divert other things. We've now seen

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a situation where there is not much

money available for all sorts of

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things. There's a political

challenge to explain to the country

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why you would need to spend

resources that might be spent on

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health on defence instead. An

additional factor is the point about

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Nato which is when you have Donald

Trump as president of the US, he's

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not that interested in European

security, he's interested in other

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theatres. So it falls to the UK and

France to be basically the military

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powers that support Western

democracy, security in Europe.

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Ultimately facing Russia. How you

organise that and find that, whether

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there is adequate funding is a

different question, but that has

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massively change the strategic

catalyst in the last year.

Do you

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think it is two disingenuous to

include UN pensions in this?

Yes.

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Yes, we never historically did this,

we were at 2.4% before the coalition

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came in. Effectively we've gone down

to about 1.9%. In the way that

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percentage, what do we require? What

we need? Hopefully distribute will

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do it but I'm not holding my breath.

-- hopefully this review will do it.

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This is true in every department

budget, you could say we were

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talking about health, schools,

everyone can make their case on

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their priority and the fiscal

situation is such and the growth

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situations are so bad that the

priorities have to be made.

I would

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support what Melanie said, they all

say it, Prime Minister after Prime

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Minister, defence and other

secretaries, the most important

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thing for any government is the

defence of our people and quick as a

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flash they don't do it. I know from

three years in government,

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governments can afford what they

want is to afford. I think it has

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been pusillanimous and putting us on

a path to danger.

Before we let you

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go, because we have not been able to

reach Johnny Mercer, with some

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technical problems, Michael Fallon,

the former Defence Secretary, said

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in the budget debate that he hopes

to speak more freely than the

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constraint of government allowed.

You think you will be a useful ally

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in the argument you have been

making?

I wouldn't have thought so

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up until recently. I think he was

disingenuous about what was being

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provided for defence but he suddenly

had the conversion of five or six

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days before he went and suddenly

said, we need more money for defence

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which is the truth. If he's going to

be saying that, I'm delighted. I

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would hesitate to say he is a

hands-on chap, but I hope he will

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say the right thing. We do need more

money for defence. If you look in

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the Lords, every corner of the

Lords, every corner of the Commons,

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they are all saying, there's a real

problem here and the front benches

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ignore it or say, it's all fine. And

it can't be if it's that difficult.

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The University of Liverpool has seen

the latest campaign to rename

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a building because of claims that it

honours a historical figure

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connected with the slave trade.

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But is this a sensible response

to society's changing

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views, or another example

of oversensitivity in our

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universities and beyond?

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They say history is

written by the victors.

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Just as our taste for

fashion and art evolves,

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so to do our values,

and in turn, our view

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of that history.

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William Gladstone, campaigning

liberal and still the only

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British Prime Minister to serve four

terms, may not seem the obvious

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choice for reappraisal.

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But Tinaye Mapako, who's a medical

student in Gladstone's

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home city of Liverpool,

is one of a group of undergraduates

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who launched a campaign

to remove his name from

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the student accommodation block.

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I think it was finding out

about his role in the works

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for compensating slave owners.

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He helped gain some,

the equivalent of some

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£4 million in today's money.

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I mean, some people will think,

William Gladstone, one

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of our greatest prime ministers,

known for being a great reformer,

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they will be surprised that

you've singled him out.

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I think that's a wonderful

case of what about-ery.

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It's really great that people

are talking about other

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stuff that Gladstone did,

but that doesn't really

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answer the question

that we are offering to people.

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We're talking about the issue

of slavery and how we commemorate

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people's role in the slave trade.

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Liverpool is a city built

on the slave trade.

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Penny Lane, made famous

by the Beatles, was in fact

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named after James Penny,

a man who owned slave ships.

0:19:460:19:48

This campaign by Liverpool students

is one of the growing number

0:19:480:19:52

all over the world aimed at removing

the dedications and statues

0:19:520:19:55

to those men who profited

from the slave trade.

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A movement kick-started in the US.

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Earlier this year, New Orleans

removed all Confederate monuments

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on the city's parks and streets,

while Yale University announced

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it was removing symbols

of Vice President John Calhoun,

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a Southerner, and staunch

defender of slavery.

0:20:140:20:18

The Rhodes Must Fall movement

started in South Africa

0:20:180:20:20

but quickly moved to Oxford,

where students were ultimately

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unsuccessful in campaigning

to remove the statue of imperialist

0:20:230:20:27

Cecil Rhodes.

0:20:270:20:29

But earlier this year,

Bristol's Colston Hall,

0:20:290:20:31

a well-known music venue,

became the first significant

0:20:310:20:34

institution in the UK to bow

to public pressure and remove

0:20:340:20:37

the name of the notable

17th-century philanthropist

0:20:370:20:41

and slaver Edward Colston.

0:20:410:20:43

It's a trend some

believe is unhelpful.

0:20:430:20:46

I don't think it helps

to knock down statues,

0:20:460:20:49

or knock down buildings,

because then we're

0:20:490:20:52

not going to learn.

0:20:520:20:54

What we need to learn

is that there are absolute evils,

0:20:540:20:57

including slavery, but also

that they were people of their time.

0:20:570:21:03

And Gladstone was not

a bad human being.

0:21:030:21:05

For men of his class

and his education, that's simply

0:21:050:21:09

what people thought.

0:21:090:21:11

And within that, he was a much

better man than many.

0:21:110:21:15

But while Liverpool's student union

doesn't take an official view,

0:21:150:21:18

it does think that the debate

is one worth having.

0:21:180:21:20

And they intend to hold a student

referendum later this term.

0:21:200:21:24

I think it's really positive to see

students engaging in a critical

0:21:240:21:28

outlook on the environment.

0:21:280:21:35

I think the very fact

that people are talking

0:21:350:21:38

about it is a really academic way

to investigate our history

0:21:380:21:40

and I think it informs the way

we live our lives now.

0:21:400:21:43

So the students at Liverpool

are the next generation of leaders,

0:21:430:21:46

the idea that they are questioning

things that have gone before them

0:21:460:21:49

is a really positive sign.

0:21:490:21:50

The University of Liverpool said any

official request for a name change

0:21:500:21:53

would have to go through a formal

process, and while the names

0:21:530:21:56

and statues that pack the city

reflect a sometimes difficult

0:21:560:21:58

history, they also offer

an important reminder of the past.

0:21:580:22:02

We're joined by Femi Nylander, an

activist from the Rhodes Must Fall

0:22:070:22:10

campaign. You heard it mentioned.

Welcome to the programme. Calling

0:22:100:22:15

for statues or names of historical

figures to be removed because you

0:22:150:22:19

don't like them and you think they

represent something controversial,

0:22:190:22:24

but doing it without contextualising

it, or revising it or putting it at

0:22:240:22:28

the time that these people were

alive, is not a form of censorship?

0:22:280:22:33

Talking about contextualising and

something being contentious, this is

0:22:330:22:39

not contentious. Slavery is not

contentious, it was a crime against

0:22:390:22:42

humanity on a mass scale. And

Gladstone's use are not contentious.

0:22:420:22:46

It's not just the fact that he got

his father paid off to the tune of

0:22:460:22:50

what is in today's money the

equivalent of 83 million, that is

0:22:500:22:55

just his father, but the rest of the

people he got paid off, when he was

0:22:550:22:58

53 in the 60s, when he was already

Chancellor, he was defending the

0:22:580:23:03

Jefferson Davis and the US civil war

saying they should be able to

0:23:030:23:10

succeed. He was a staunch supporter

of slavery and he also helps run the

0:23:100:23:13

British Empire but that is a

different thing. When you talk about

0:23:130:23:17

these monuments and statues, talking

about Gladstone's role in the slave

0:23:170:23:24

trade and Cecil Rhodes's history of

colonialism only started in this

0:23:240:23:28

country because of these movements.

Do you agree?

I don't. Gladstone was

0:23:280:23:34

not a staunch supporter of slavery

and what you say was true about his

0:23:340:23:38

father and the compensation, but he

had a more complicated set of views,

0:23:380:23:42

he was anti-slavery, he just

believed in a different way of

0:23:420:23:45

approaching it. He wanted the

slaves' conditions to be in fruit

0:23:450:23:50

and he wanted compensation for the

slave owners. It's not true to be a

0:23:500:23:56

staunch supporter of slavery, to say

he was, the opposite is true. I

0:23:560:24:01

think it's troubling, I understand

the strong feelings against slavery,

0:24:010:24:04

it was and remains an annihilate

evil, but this approach that says

0:24:040:24:08

that we should expunge it from

historical memory is wrong. We heard

0:24:080:24:14

how important it was in the context

of Liverpool that this controversy

0:24:140:24:20

has produced critical thinking,

students in gauging with the issue.

0:24:200:24:22

If the statue was not there, they

would not be in changing.

Isn't it

0:24:220:24:26

about learning from history? Anthony

Seldon said, there are absolute

0:24:260:24:30

evils and you may think that this

case William Gladstone did represent

0:24:300:24:34

in some form an absolute evil, but

without reference to history, how

0:24:340:24:38

will people talk about it and learn

about it?

We leave aside the

0:24:380:24:42

question whether or not he was a

staunch supporter... We will move

0:24:420:24:45

on. In terms of how people will

learn from it, we had to start

0:24:450:24:52

teaching history, actually talking

about Britain's role in the slave

0:24:520:24:55

trade.

And aren't these people part

of it?

For example, if you take a

0:24:550:25:00

statue, if you go across the road,

there's Parliament Square. And you

0:25:000:25:03

have eight statue of Churchill, -- a

statue of Churchill and another

0:25:030:25:10

founder of apartheid, alongside a

statue of Cecil Rhodes and Mahatma

0:25:100:25:15

Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.

Do you

recognise that Churchill was seen as

0:25:150:25:18

one of the Great War leaders?

I

recognise that, and he is not seen

0:25:180:25:24

as a genocidal man who helped lead

to the death of 4 million people in

0:25:240:25:29

van Gaal. And we don't talk about

history.

I'm fascinated about this

0:25:290:25:39

and ambivalent, but what is the

statute of limitations of went an

0:25:390:25:42

atrocity is just something you can

observe in history, and you can put

0:25:420:25:46

up monuments for people who are now

considered atrocious? There was a

0:25:460:25:53

statue of Cromwell, he was a

fanatical murderer for some people,

0:25:530:25:56

he would not be popular in Ireland,

and if they understood his

0:25:560:25:59

behaviour, people in this country,

in modern values. When you look at

0:25:590:26:05

what happened in the US with the

taking down of Confederate

0:26:050:26:09

monuments, those symbols were

rallying points for a very active

0:26:090:26:12

current extremely racist movement.

That's a different thing...

They are

0:26:120:26:17

rallying points.

But there are not

Gladstone supporters rallying in

0:26:170:26:22

this country.

Britain was key to the

dismantling of Libya, and the slave

0:26:220:26:28

trading of black trading is going on

in Libya because of the actions of

0:26:280:26:33

Britain. Britain is still a very

colonial force in this world and

0:26:330:26:36

starting to deal with the history of

white Britain is the fifth richest

0:26:360:26:40

country in the world, why Britain is

causing foreign wars and

0:26:400:26:44

aggressions, is part of that,

starting to look at history, look at

0:26:440:26:47

people like Churchill.

That's not

quite true.

We don't deal with our

0:26:470:26:51

history. We don't talk about

history, Churchill is now the £5

0:26:510:26:56

not.

This is an ideological way of

looking at it, the slavery going on

0:26:560:27:04

in Libya, the people to blame other

people who are the slave owners in

0:27:040:27:08

those countries and those countries.

To blame Britain is perverse. And

0:27:080:27:12

you can go to any hero and almost

guaranteed that among their values

0:27:120:27:17

and attitudes, especially if they

were a long time ago, will be things

0:27:170:27:21

that we find a very, very

discomforting. Churchill undoubtedly

0:27:210:27:23

had some extremely dubious from our

point of view now attitudes to a lot

0:27:230:27:28

of things.

Churchill said, if there

is a famine, why isn't Ghandi dead

0:27:280:27:35

yet?

But you can findings about

Gandhi as well.

Oh, yes, his statue

0:27:350:27:40

is next to Churchill.

So would you

care all of these statues down?

No,

0:27:400:27:45

I wouldn't.

Why not?

Where would you

draw the line? Melanie's .30 could

0:27:450:27:52

find things that are difficult and

uncomfortable, -- Malini's point,

0:27:520:27:58

that you could find things that are

difficult...

There is difficult and

0:27:580:28:03

accountable, and there is helping to

lead to the death of 4 million

0:28:030:28:06

people...

With you see that on the

same line as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam

0:28:060:28:11

Hussein?

Yes, people loved the

statue of Saddam Hussein coming down

0:28:110:28:17

because he's not a British hero.

I'm

fascinated by this distinction

0:28:170:28:21

because something has been erected

in the past because people wanted to

0:28:210:28:26

venerate a certain figure, which you

are now connecting to saying, means

0:28:260:28:30

ongoing complicity in something

appalling and atrocious that is

0:28:300:28:33

going on. I can see in the

Confederate case that is true, but

0:28:330:28:38

in the case of Gladstone or

Churchill, I don't see, it's quite a

0:28:380:28:43

big leap from people venerating this

person because of something they did

0:28:430:28:45

in the past and right now...

People

right now do not deal with history.

0:28:450:28:51

Written right now does not teach in

its schools the history of

0:28:510:28:55

colonialism. It teaches the history

of slavery in the States but it

0:28:550:28:58

rarely teaches about the history of

slavery in the UK. Britain does not

0:28:580:29:02

deal with history.

It would taking

the state to -- and would taking the

0:29:020:29:09

statutes down the order that?

The

only reason we have had the

0:29:090:29:14

conversation in the last few decades

is the Rhodes Must Fall campaign and

0:29:140:29:17

the wave of movement in the

universities in the last couple of

0:29:170:29:20

years. We have seen a massive

backlash against us.

I think these

0:29:200:29:27

debates have been going on

throughout...

I remember them in the

0:29:270:29:30

80s.

I said in the past few decades!

Thank you very much for coming in.

0:29:300:29:37

Much appreciated.

0:29:370:29:39

The musician Matthew Herbert

is known for ignoring convention -

0:29:390:29:41

he's previously recorded the sound

of tanks, crematoriums,

0:29:410:29:43

coffin lids and arms fairs for use

in his electronic music,

0:29:430:29:46

which as you might have guessed can

be rather political.

0:29:460:29:48

His latest project, called

the 'Brexit Big Band',

0:29:480:29:50

includes setting Article 50 to music

and is described as a response

0:29:500:29:54

to quote "the message from parts

of the Brexit campaign that

0:29:540:29:57

as a nation we are

better off alone".

0:29:570:30:00

It's been in the news after it

emerged that the project has been

0:30:000:30:03

in part funded by the Department

for International Trade,

0:30:030:30:05

led by leading Brexit

supporter Liam Fox.

0:30:050:30:07

Here's the Brexit

Big Band in action.

0:30:070:30:17

After Brexit, we decided to bring

the Daily Mail, which is a

BLEEP

0:30:170:30:20

right-wing newspaper in England that

made a referendum about

0:30:200:30:23

sovereignty into something

about foreigners.

0:30:230:30:28

So, yeah, that's what

we're reading today.

0:30:280:30:35

MELLOW JAZZ, WITH RHYTHMIC RIPPING.

0:30:360:30:46

I'm happy to say Matthew joins me.

What was your motivation?

Something

0:30:550:31:01

about identity. Thinking about a

sense of Britishness after the

0:31:010:31:07

Brexit vote. It seemed such a shock

to many of us that work and travel a

0:31:070:31:13

lot and Europe, have friends there,

and collaborate, it was such a

0:31:130:31:17

shock. For me it was being about

wanting to be part of that

0:31:170:31:21

conversation. To talk about the

things we've achieved. And not

0:31:210:31:23

wanting to let it go.

So it's a

protest about Brexit?

I think it is

0:31:230:31:32

accepted that Remain hast lost. It's

not a continuation of its campaign.

0:31:320:31:37

But it is about what kind of Brexit

do we want. It's clear the

0:31:370:31:41

government took us into this without

much of a plan. There is room for

0:31:410:31:45

other people to come up with other

plans and other visions.

Why do you

0:31:450:31:50

think Brexit Woodstock friendships,

travel, and connections that

0:31:500:31:53

currently exist in and with Europe?

I was born in 1972. Europe has been

0:31:530:32:00

part of my whole life, really. Much

of what has enriched my life has

0:32:000:32:06

been working and collaborating with

people from all cultures. I feel

0:32:060:32:12

like it's not really clear what the

government is expressing about the

0:32:120:32:16

kind of Brexit they want. Is it

European style... Sorry, what kind

0:32:160:32:21

of Britain they want after Brexit,

is it European style, or is it

0:32:210:32:25

American in the low taxation idea.

Why do you think Brexit threatens

0:32:250:32:37

tolerance and creativity?

You only

have to have a look at the spike in

0:32:370:32:41

hate crime after the Brexit vote.

Those figures are contested. Is that

0:32:410:32:46

the basis for your evidence, that it

will threaten tolerance in the

0:32:460:32:50

future?

You only have to look at

some of the language coming out of

0:32:500:32:54

the newspapers about how we talk

about foreigners, how we talk about

0:32:540:33:00

people of colour, that kind of

thing.

Melanie, part of this music

0:33:000:33:05

is ripping up the Daily Mail, are

you offended by that, used to write

0:33:050:33:08

for them?

I think it's a rather

perverse and strange thing that a

0:33:080:33:17

message of tolerance takes the form

of tearing up the newspapers.

0:33:170:33:19

Because that is promoting hatred of

the Daily Mail. I appreciate the

0:33:190:33:24

Daily Mail provokes strong opinions.

To tear up newspapers has chilling

0:33:240:33:31

connotations for me. Destroying

literature... You know, burning

0:33:310:33:35

books, tearing up newspapers. The

deeper thing is, and I do appreciate

0:33:350:33:40

that for Remainers it is a sort of

grief, what has happened, but I

0:33:400:33:46

think that is a perverse attitude.

There is complete confusion between

0:33:460:33:50

the desire of the Brexiteers, of

whom I am very much one, to for

0:33:500:33:56

Britain to regain its reputation,

that we cannot be fully sovereign

0:33:560:34:04

and self-governing to do that. You

currently have a belief that we are

0:34:040:34:10

narrow, bigoted, that we will be

horrible to foreigners, that doesn't

0:34:100:34:16

follow...

Is that what you are

saying?

Where is the joy? Where is

0:34:160:34:25

the positivity?

About Britain being

a self-governing nation, isn't that

0:34:250:34:29

great?

There is nothing joyful about

this Government, nothing joyful

0:34:290:34:33

about this process, no reaching

out...

That the Government.

Melanie

0:34:330:34:39

speaks on the half of part of the

Brexit vote, when she feels strongly

0:34:390:34:42

about. I think a lot of people who

witnessed that campaign saw a very

0:34:420:34:46

deliberate, cynical mobilisation of

angry, xenophobic feeling. That was

0:34:460:34:53

intrinsic to some of the messages

put out by aspects of the Leave

0:34:530:34:58

campaign. But wounded people. -- but

that wounded people. It's quite

0:34:580:35:06

reasonable to suggest, firstly it

might not have crossed the finish

0:35:060:35:09

line ahead of Remain had it not

echoed some of those sentiments.

0:35:090:35:15

Some people who feel aggrieved by it

and sad about it have a passion

0:35:150:35:21

about British identity, British

democracy, and British sovereignty.

0:35:210:35:24

They just don't think the EU was the

corrosive force.

I don't accept that

0:35:240:35:29

it mainly motivated xenophobia.

Going back before you were born,

0:35:290:35:36

going back to 1975 when I voted no

to Europe, have always been accused

0:35:360:35:41

of xenophobia. Simply because I

didn't think Britain should be in

0:35:410:35:44

the EU. It is people like me who

have been the target of hatred on

0:35:440:35:49

the basis that we are automatically

accused of bigotry, of xenophobia,

0:35:490:35:54

of racial prejudice, of

narrow-mindedness, of intolerance...

0:35:540:36:00

It is extraordinary that you

consider yourself to be addicting.

0:36:000:36:04

Is ripping up the paper a hostile

act? -- consider yourself a victim.

0:36:040:36:13

Especially from somebody who was

supposed to be promoting tolerance.

0:36:130:36:18

For me I am interested in sound,

stories, I'm interested in it as

0:36:180:36:25

materials. It's not just the Daily

Mail. Wherever we go we ask

0:36:250:36:30

countries to provide newspapers who

they feel are pushing towards a more

0:36:300:36:33

divided society. We filmed this

concept in Syria, Russia, and China,

0:36:330:36:40

where the act has a different

connotation.

Why should you have

0:36:400:36:44

funding from the Department of

International trade?

That an

0:36:440:36:48

argument about arts subsidy.

According to the bpi, which is where

0:36:480:36:53

we got the money from, for every £1

they invest they get £10 back. They

0:36:530:36:58

see it as investment. The creative

industry provide a £2 billion worth

0:36:580:37:04

of income to this economy.

Would

Liam Fox enjoy going to see this?

0:37:040:37:12

The underlying point is he

subsidises the arts, sometimes the

0:37:120:37:15

arts will do things and perform

things which make governments

0:37:150:37:19

uncomfortable. That the healthy

aspect. I must revisit this idea

0:37:190:37:22

that Brexiteers are the victim of

this. This is fascinating. The won.

0:37:220:37:29

The ultimate policy is the

overarching drive of what Government

0:37:290:37:32

is doing. -- they have won. The idea

of being pro-European is oppressing

0:37:320:37:40

the Brexit spirit, that's so

interesting...

I said in the past

0:37:400:37:47

that is how we were perceived and

treated.

There is no sense of

0:37:470:37:53

triumph...

Remainers are the most

pessimistic people I've ever seen.

0:37:530:38:02

Brexiteers are the joyful ones.

You

are bitter and miserable about it

0:38:020:38:08

all the time.

How wonderful it is to

be democratic. I said that is how we

0:38:080:38:15

were treated. I also said how

wonderful it is Britain is becoming

0:38:150:38:19

a democratic nation. You say that is

joyless, but that is your view of

0:38:190:38:23

what happened.

Don't talk over each

other because we will end this

0:38:230:38:26

debate. Thank you very much for

coming in.

Thank you.

0:38:260:38:31

The Conservatives came

in for criticism this

0:38:310:38:32

week following reports,

widely shared by campaigners

0:38:320:38:34

and celebrities online,

that Tory MPs had voted to reject

0:38:340:38:36

the idea that animals can feel pain.

0:38:360:38:38

The party says it's been a victim

of "fake news", and the reports -

0:38:380:38:41

some of which have since been

corrected - didn't reflect reality.

0:38:410:38:44

Here's Emma Vardy to explain.

0:38:440:38:45

Have MPs decided that animals

don't have feelings?

0:38:450:38:47

Some people think they have.

0:38:470:38:49

And it's down to a vote that

happened in Parliament recently.

0:38:490:38:51

Since then, a lot of

people have been getting

0:38:510:38:53

really angry about this.

0:38:530:38:56

These papers have been making out

that MPs don't care about animals.

0:38:560:38:59

And millions of people have been

reading and sharing stuff

0:38:590:39:01

like this on social media.

0:39:010:39:03

Celebrities have been

tweeting about it.

0:39:030:39:10

And hundreds of thousands of people

have signed petitions.

0:39:100:39:13

That's not the full story.

0:39:130:39:14

MPs didn't vote to say that animals

don't have feelings.

0:39:140:39:16

They're calling this fake news.

0:39:160:39:17

And the Minister Michael Gove says

the reporting was wrong.

0:39:170:39:20

The Independent newspaper's

changed its story, and some

0:39:200:39:22

of the tweets have been taken down.

0:39:220:39:25

So how did all this come about?

0:39:250:39:27

We need to go back a bit

to understand what's

0:39:270:39:29

actually happened here.

0:39:290:39:31

The idea that animals are capable

of feeling pain and suffering

0:39:310:39:33

is called animal sentience,

and has been a really big

0:39:330:39:36

thing for campaigners

in the animal rights movement.

0:39:360:39:41

Back in the '80s and '90s,

campaigners decided the rules

0:39:410:39:43

on animal welfare weren't

up to scratch.

0:39:430:39:45

Like the way live animals

are transported, or the way

0:39:450:39:47

they're slaughtered.

0:39:470:39:49

Or how battery farmed hens are kept.

0:39:490:39:51

So they fought a long battle to get

the European Union to recognise

0:39:510:39:54

animals as sentient beings,

and even celebrities got involved.

0:39:540:39:56

Campaigners started a petition that

got 1 million signatures.

0:39:560:39:58

Which wasn't easy back then

before the Internet.

0:39:580:40:04

And the EU did take notice.

0:40:040:40:06

The rule on animal sentience

was finally written into an EU

0:40:060:40:09

treaty, the Lisbon Treaty, in 2009.

0:40:090:40:12

It was a big win for animal welfare,

a real victory for campaigners.

0:40:120:40:15

But now, because we're leaving

the EU, the UK won't be bound

0:40:150:40:18

by these rules any more.

0:40:180:40:20

So campaigners wanted to transfer

the rules on animal sentience

0:40:200:40:23

from the EU treaty into UK law,

so it would still be

0:40:230:40:26

there after Brexit.

0:40:260:40:29

The Green Party MP Caroline Lucas

tried to persuade everyone

0:40:290:40:31

that this was a good idea.

0:40:310:40:34

But Conservative MPs voted

against it and it was turned down.

0:40:340:40:36

And that's where the row started.

0:40:360:40:40

But most MPs believe,

even without the EU treaty,

0:40:400:40:44

animal protection won't be affected

because they say animal sentience

0:40:440:40:46

is already covered in UK law

in the Animal Welfare Act, so it's

0:40:460:40:49

just not true to say that MPs voted

that animals don't have feelings.

0:40:490:40:54

But campaigners aren't convinced.

0:40:540:40:58

And they still believe an important

principle is being lost.

0:40:580:41:01

Michael Gove, the minister

in charge of farming,

0:41:010:41:04

has said he will strengthen animal

welfare rules and that there

0:41:040:41:07

won't be a gap in our laws

after we leave the EU.

0:41:070:41:13

And joining me now is

the Green Party's Home Affairs

0:41:130:41:15

Spokesperson Shahrar Ali

and the Conservative

0:41:150:41:17

MP Zac Goldsmith.

0:41:170:41:21

Welcome. The Government says the

amendment put down by Caroline Lucas

0:41:210:41:27

was faulty, it wasn't good enough,

and they will bring forward any

0:41:270:41:32

legislation to make the UK a world

leader on animal welfare. What's

0:41:320:41:36

wrong with that?

It's a good job we

put that amendment. If you were

0:41:360:41:43

really worried about the detail of

the amendment and thought it was

0:41:430:41:46

worth doing you would amend it. This

is a vital, important piece of

0:41:460:41:51

legislation. There is a difference

between acknowledging animals can

0:41:510:41:55

feel pain and that they are 70 and

creatures. That goes far further

0:41:550:42:02

than their capacity to suffer. --

sentient creatures. The animal

0:42:020:42:11

welfare act of 2006 does not

subscribe to this. It mentions

0:42:110:42:17

sentience in the preamble, but it

does not mention it specifically.

Do

0:42:170:42:21

you think there was inaccurate

reporting of this amendment which

0:42:210:42:25

implied the Government doesn't

accept animals feel pain?

I accept

0:42:250:42:29

there has been misreporting. But you

must look at what is being reported.

0:42:290:42:34

Was that misreported?

You must make

a distinction between where people

0:42:340:42:38

are voting against -- were people

voting against sentience, or were

0:42:380:42:43

they voting against the act which

protects it, which had sentience at

0:42:430:42:50

its core. The reason it has become

controversial is because sentience

0:42:500:43:01

is an established proof about

animals. It would be a good

0:43:010:43:07

candidate for what is currently

being described as fake news that

0:43:070:43:11

MPs voted against the idea of animal

sentience.

Is it important that

0:43:110:43:16

animal sentience is recognised in

law?

Yes. There isn't a single MP in

0:43:160:43:22

any party in any corner of this

country that doesn't believe animals

0:43:220:43:24

are sentient. If you look at the

transcript of the debate we are

0:43:240:43:30

talking about, that was acknowledged

by every person who contributed on

0:43:300:43:34

this issue to that debate. There was

no debate about sentience. The

0:43:340:43:39

Government's problem was the wording

of the amendment. It's not just

0:43:390:43:43

raising animal welfare standards,

which we are doing, there is a

0:43:430:43:50

complicit in a clear statement we've

had from Michael Gove that we will

0:43:500:43:53

find the best route to make sure

sentience is incorporated into UK

0:43:530:43:57

law. There's a disagreement whether

Richard B in the withdrawal bill, in

0:43:570:44:02

a forthcoming animal welfare Bill,

whether we should be amending

0:44:020:44:05

previous bills, or whether there

should be an environment bill. --

0:44:050:44:09

whether it is the withdrawal bill.

This story is fake news because

0:44:090:44:16

nothing has changed. It doesn't

matter how we do that, as long as we

0:44:160:44:19

do it and we will do it.

You do

accept that the 2006 animal welfare

0:44:190:44:25

act does not go far enough? It

doesn't cover all animals, for

0:44:250:44:31

example, laboratory animals, or wild

animals. And it puts the onus on

0:44:310:44:36

owners of animals, but not on the

Government, do you accept that is an

0:44:360:44:39

inadequate law?

0:44:390:44:43

Not only do I access it but Michael

Gove access it as well, his

0:44:430:44:47

statement makes that clear. -- we

both accept this. I just want to

0:44:470:44:57

make the thing, symbolically,

sentience needs to be recognised but

0:44:570:45:00

let's not pretend this is a high

benchmark that emanates from the

0:45:000:45:04

European Union. Under the protection

of that law, we have bull-fighting,

0:45:040:45:09

and veal farming, beyond cruel,

factory farming conditions, we have

0:45:090:45:15

donkey torture, fur farming, one of

the worst things imaginable are

0:45:150:45:17

permitted under this principle. Our

standards have always been high and

0:45:170:45:24

we have had seen fireworks as they

of activity in the last four months,

0:45:240:45:29

putting animal welfare at the heart

of the environment. We have been

0:45:290:45:34

raising sentencing to people who are

cruel to animals, I could go on for

0:45:340:45:39

20 minutes.

You have gone on for

quite a long time. Passionate though

0:45:390:45:43

you are. Do you accept that, it's

the case that you just don't trust

0:45:430:45:49

the Conservative government, which

you may not to back their words with

0:45:490:45:52

action with any new legislation

which has put forward, or really

0:45:520:45:55

have just misjudged this row?

I

accept that Zac Goldsmith and

0:45:550:46:01

Michael Gove as well do come across

and probably do personally have a

0:46:010:46:06

great commitment to animal welfare

and animal rights. The problem is,

0:46:060:46:08

what people are incredulous about is

on the one hand trying to claim that

0:46:080:46:13

we believe that animals have

sentience, on the other hand, not

0:46:130:46:18

committing to this amendment which

would have us commit to ensuring

0:46:180:46:23

that that was in any future policy

on this matter. So I don't I accept

0:46:230:46:27

that this is not real news, that

people are incredulous and emotional

0:46:270:46:33

and upset and angry that we are not

prepared to say on EU legislation

0:46:330:46:38

which was originally spearheaded by

the UK, that of course, we will be

0:46:380:46:42

committing to this today.

Why not?

If you, and he made a very personal

0:46:420:46:46

offence there of the UK Government

in terms of its standards, if you

0:46:460:46:53

all government is so committed to

welfare, why doesn't the government

0:46:530:46:57

put its money where its mouth is

through the EU withdrawal bill, why

0:46:570:47:01

isn't that an adequate instrument to

put in place the things that you

0:47:010:47:04

have talked about, bring over the EU

law, that the point of the bill.

I

0:47:040:47:09

have been an MP for nearly seven

years and I've never been a defender

0:47:090:47:12

of the government's record on

environment or welfare. The last

0:47:120:47:18

four months have been different.

Answer the question, why not use the

0:47:180:47:21

EU withdrawal bill?

There was no

argued about the sentiment in the

0:47:210:47:27

amendment, the principles were

accented by the MPs that spoke and

0:47:270:47:30

the government.

But they did not

vote, to be accurate, you are right

0:47:300:47:35

in saying that nobody voted that

animals are not sentience because

0:47:350:47:38

that wasn't up for a vote that they

did not vote that they were so you

0:47:380:47:44

can see how the impression came from

a story that actually the government

0:47:440:47:47

and its MPs did not support this

idea that animals are sentience, why

0:47:470:47:54

not use the EU withdraw Bill is the

better to deal with it now?

We we

0:47:540:48:03

are committed to legislate for

animal sentience, that is for the

0:48:030:48:09

government to do, we have been told

in a written statement that there

0:48:090:48:14

will be no gaps between us leaving

the EU and this. We are not having

0:48:140:48:19

to be dragged to do this, the

commitment is there. I don't member

0:48:190:48:22

a single piece...

Hang on, it's

quite got to stop you in your flow.

0:48:220:48:28

This really does not wash. The

public, animal welfare campaigners,

0:48:280:48:35

sick and tired of politicians not

putting their money where their

0:48:350:48:38

mouth is. This was a golden

opportunity for us to demonstrate

0:48:380:48:42

our commitment, not just in words

but indeed, to say that this part of

0:48:420:48:47

the legislation which the UK

spearheaded, and obligate the

0:48:470:48:50

government, not just owners and

keepers of animals, obligated the

0:48:500:48:53

government and puts the urgency upon

them, and the default on them, to

0:48:530:48:57

actually commit to this, that would

be a commitment, this was not a

0:48:570:49:01

commitment.

But that's the thing.

The commitment is there. I don't

0:49:010:49:06

know what more is being asked of

Michael Gove.

The vote.

In a

0:49:060:49:10

ministerial statement, I don't

remember a single piece of

0:49:100:49:14

legislation where an opposition

amendment has been tabled, in the

0:49:140:49:18

last seven years, whether sentiment

is accepted but the government has

0:49:180:49:21

not chosen to come back with its own

version. That is what happened. This

0:49:210:49:26

is not unusual, you know this as a

presenter of a political programme,

0:49:260:49:30

this is bog-standard stuff.

My views

are not important.

That's how

0:49:300:49:35

legislation is improved, that's the

whole point.

We are in different

0:49:350:49:38

water to the EU withdrawal bill and

Brexit. Social media, Michael Gove

0:49:380:49:44

said this media that social media

corrupts and distort reporting and

0:49:440:49:49

decision making. He obviously feels

this on this issue, has he got a

0:49:490:49:52

point?

He has a certain point to the

extent that one of the fascinating

0:49:520:49:56

things about this is that normally

government, the mode of government

0:49:560:50:00

is to respond to pressure from media

if they open the newspapers, they

0:50:000:50:04

see the front page of the Daily

Mail, particularly for the

0:50:040:50:07

Conservatives, maybe the Guardian if

it's Labour, they see the front

0:50:070:50:10

pages after the budget and it's bad

news, they're being attacked, they

0:50:100:50:14

think, we have to respond. This was

not noticed by any of that. This is

0:50:140:50:18

only about 24 or 48 hours later that

he started to see through Facebook

0:50:180:50:24

this outflow of anger and that

turned into e-mails arriving in MP

0:50:240:50:28

's inboxes. The fact is, all kinds

of journalists and media outlets

0:50:280:50:34

have distorted and Mr pedantic and

applied partisan agendas, true on

0:50:340:50:37

print and in Facebook two -- they

have distorted and put their own

0:50:370:50:44

bias on it. But Facebook amplifies

this so massively, that something

0:50:440:50:49

like this can suddenly hit

Parliament like tidal wave. That is

0:50:490:50:54

much more adjusting than this

question. This is a non-argument. --

0:50:540:51:00

this is much more interesting than

this question.

The government has

0:51:000:51:04

responded, they were busy taken back

by the wealth of comment on social

0:51:040:51:07

media.

There was a very bad headline

in the Independent which was

0:51:070:51:11

basically a lie, so let's not...

They did rewrite it.

But it was

0:51:110:51:15

because of Facebook.

I find this

whole row of taxing. This --

0:51:150:51:23

perplexing. This business sentience,

why is it so important? On the one

0:51:230:51:27

hand, everybody agrees that animals

feel pain and distress. And every

0:51:270:51:33

piece of government legislation

since time in Memorial, to promote

0:51:330:51:39

animal welfare, implicitly

understand that animals feel pain.

0:51:390:51:42

Do you have do incorporate all

animals?

Hume need perhaps to widen

0:51:420:51:48

your groups of animals. Basically if

the government accepts that

0:51:480:51:53

sentience is there anyway, why is it

so determined to prevent this

0:51:530:51:56

legislation? On the contrary, where

the greens are so determined to put

0:51:560:52:02

sentience in, and what you said,

that is the evidence, you said, the

0:52:020:52:09

evidence is that sentience goes

further than feeling pain. Sentience

0:52:090:52:12

is not just feeling pain and

distress, which we all agreed must

0:52:120:52:15

not happen to animals, sentience

gets us into this metaphysical area

0:52:150:52:21

of, our animals as conscious as we

are? Do they feel...

Have you taking

0:52:210:52:26

it too far?

That takes us into the

area of equating animals and humans.

0:52:260:52:33

There is a debate worth having about

what level of respect and value we

0:52:330:52:38

accord to our fellow animals.

Nonhuman animals. And part of the

0:52:380:52:43

reason my sentience is so critical,

because there have been established

0:52:430:52:48

scientific and psychological studies

which demonstrate that pain, the

0:52:480:52:50

lowest level of psychological

response, is an insufficient way of

0:52:500:52:54

describing the inner life of animals

in terms of emotions, the capacity

0:52:540:52:57

to suffer. The very fact that

Melanie is questioning how to define

0:52:570:53:03

sentience demonstrates that we

should have that as a threshold.

0:53:030:53:06

This fills me with concern because

the inner life of animals takes us

0:53:060:53:10

straight into the analogy between

animals and humans which devalues

0:53:100:53:13

humans.

I think you can say that is

a red herring.

What is your take on

0:53:130:53:19

this final point?

It a nice academic

debate, the reality is that there is

0:53:190:53:25

no gap to wear Michael Gove is and

where the Green party spokesman is,

0:53:250:53:29

we are putting sentience into UK's

law, Michael Gove's payment could

0:53:290:53:33

not be more clear. I will take one

more point. I have only got a black

0:53:330:53:39

screen so I don't know who the

previous commentator was, this

0:53:390:53:44

avalanche of social media, it has

taken us by surprise, no doubt. On

0:53:440:53:48

one level it's infuriating, because

it is on the back of fake news put

0:53:480:53:52

out by the intended which has been

corrected, but on another level,

0:53:520:53:55

it's a wonderful refection of

Britain. That this issue of animal

0:53:550:54:01

welfare matters so much to similar

millions of people which is a good

0:54:010:54:03

thing. Even if the context is fake

news, it's a good thing, it makes me

0:54:030:54:08

half happy.

At least you have left

are happy to tribute. That recruit

0:54:080:54:15

you have left us a happy

contributor.

0:54:150:54:18

Former Scottish Labour

leader Kezia Dugdale has

0:54:180:54:20

defended her decision to appear

on the TV Show I'm A Celebrity

0:54:200:54:22

Get Me Out of Here, saying

it is "an amazing opportunity

0:54:220:54:25

to talk to young people who watch

this programme about politics and,

0:54:250:54:28

in particular, Labour values".

0:54:280:54:29

Well, the jury's still out

on whether that's going to plan

0:54:290:54:32

following her first appearance

in the jungle last night.

0:54:320:54:34

KLAXON BLARES.

0:54:340:54:35

Come on!

0:54:350:54:36

Go on, guys!

0:54:360:54:37

Into Sickola Sturgeon,

the first box.

0:54:370:54:39

Go on, Kez!

0:54:390:54:40

Oh, both of them, though.

0:54:400:54:42

Fish guts in there, they're looking

for that first red star.

0:54:420:54:45

Come on, Kez!

0:54:450:54:48

Oh, it's freezing!

0:54:480:54:49

This is rank!

0:54:490:54:50

Where the hell is it?

0:54:500:54:53

Come on, Kez.

0:54:530:54:55

Come on, girl.

0:54:550:54:57

What have they got in those boxes?

0:54:570:54:59

Raw meat and fish guts.

0:54:590:55:01

A red star, you say?

0:55:010:55:02

Red star.

0:55:020:55:03

Definitely red?

0:55:030:55:04

Definitely red.

0:55:040:55:05

Red star at night,

celebrity's delight.

0:55:050:55:08

Ian has his and it's in his bag,

he's into Margaret Scratcher.

0:55:080:55:11

Margaret Scratcher!

0:55:110:55:13

Oh, she can't find it!

0:55:130:55:18

That was Kezia Dugdale,

and to discuss how she did we're

0:55:180:55:21

joined from Glasgow by the arts

and film critic and devoted I'm

0:55:210:55:23

a Celebrity fan Siobhan Synnott.

0:55:230:55:25

That has put me off my lunch! Are

you a devoted fan of I'm A

0:55:250:55:34

Celebrity? Hat so how did she do?

I'm a big fan of her, but I'm only

0:55:340:55:39

slightly worried that if Kezia takes

off, we will see Alex Salmond on

0:55:390:55:45

Love Island. She has guts, that was

not a pleasant task. But she took on

0:55:450:55:54

the job of leader of the Scottish

Labour Party when nobody wanted it

0:55:540:55:57

and a tarantula would be tasty in

comparison.

So why would you put

0:55:570:56:01

yourself through this, having been

to the travails of Labour leader in

0:56:010:56:05

Scotland?

I think this is puzzling

everybody. I don't think Kezia

0:56:050:56:10

Dugdale is steely strategist, I

think this is an impulsive move. It

0:56:100:56:14

may do her no harm. There's been

talk about whether this is a

0:56:140:56:18

humiliation but I think it depends

very much on how you rise to the

0:56:180:56:21

occasion. She's been a good sport,

she went through the ten Downing

0:56:210:56:28

creep humiliations well, she emerged

with character when he was voted

0:56:280:56:32

into looking after the cleaning

duties, as she said, rather meekly,

0:56:320:56:37

she has gone from prospective Prime

Minister to domestic Danny duties

0:56:370:56:41

and she did it with a smile. She may

come out of it well. The key to

0:56:410:56:47

getting through these reality shows

if you are politician is not to be

0:56:470:56:50

pompous, not to be self enchanted,

and not to take yourself too

0:56:500:56:53

seriously.

On that advice, do you

think, I love this idea that she

0:56:530:56:58

might be able to promote socialist

Labour values by being on this

0:56:580:57:01

programme, do you think that will

work? Sorry, I will, given a second!

0:57:010:57:07

I doubt very much that there will be

much theoretical discussion of the

0:57:070:57:13

Marxist models...

It depends how

they spit up their duties!

The

0:57:130:57:17

reality is, Kezia Dugdale worked

very hard, gave some of the best

0:57:170:57:22

years of her still young life to the

terrible, painful grind of leading

0:57:220:57:27

the Scottish Labour Party at a

difficult time and she's clearly see

0:57:270:57:31

this opportunity, thinks it might be

a bit of fun, change public

0:57:310:57:33

perceptions of her, she has probably

got the memory of Ed Balls changing

0:57:330:57:43

his perception, she didn't promote

neoclassical growth theory by doing

0:57:430:57:47

the salsa.

May be he would have won

if he had done that! Do you think

0:57:470:57:51

she will last?

I think she has a new

career beckoning.

In what?

0:57:510:57:59

Unspeakable acts!

Can she win?

She

is 40 to one against, and 4-1 out

0:57:590:58:06

first, Amir Khan was a rank outsider

until he completed one of the tasks

0:58:060:58:13

and impress the audience and now she

hears one of the favourites, so come

0:58:130:58:17

on, Kezia, a few more fish guts and

you could be onto a winner. What

0:58:170:58:23

will happen next for Kezia is the

interesting thing. At the moment she

0:58:230:58:26

wants to come back and immediately

start voting again in Holyrood at

0:58:260:58:30

the end of her stint in the jungle,

but three weeks is a long time. She

0:58:300:58:34

may find that she's been offered

some appetising prospect. I'm

0:58:340:58:41

reminded of the World War I song,

how do you keep them down on the

0:58:410:58:48

farm if they have seen the Harvard?

I think you have enjoyed this far

0:58:480:58:51

too much! Thank you to all of my

guests.

0:58:510:58:57

I will go back on Monday, goodbye.

0:58:570:59:02

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