Browse content similar to 24/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:44 | |
Theresa May is in Brussels
to talk about security, | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
and Brexit might just come up -
but while it may be "Black Friday" | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
at the shops, can the prime minister
expect to get a discount | 0:00:50 | 0:00:53 | |
on our divorce bill from the EU? | 0:00:53 | 0:00:58 | |
A string of former defence chiefs
warn that Britain's armed forces | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
risk being "hollowed out" -
should the government take | 0:01:01 | 0:01:03 | |
seriously demands for more
spending on the military. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
The Conservatives claim they've been
the victim of "fake news" | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
after reports circulate online
suggesting they don't believe | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
animals feel pain or emotions. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
We'll talk to the MP Zac Goldsmith. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
Former Scottish Labour
leader Kezia Dugdale has | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
survived her first appearance on I'm
a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here - | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
but she missed out on the title
jungle prime minister and ended up | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
cleaning the rainforest toilets. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:28 | |
And we'll be joined
by the experimental musician who's | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
been making waves after his latest
project challenging the backers | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
of Brexit turned out to be in part
paid for from public funds. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:45 | |
All that in the next hour
and joining me for all of it, | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
two journalists we picked up
in a special 2-for-1 | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
Black Friday deal -
think of this show as the bargain | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
basement of polticial
discussion - it's Rafael Behr | 0:01:55 | 0:01:57 | |
and Melanie Phillips. | 0:01:57 | 0:01:58 | |
Welcome to both of you. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:08 | |
And from the premium range. You are
good value. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:15 | |
One woman who won't have had much
time for Christmas shopping this | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
morning is prime minister
Theresa May, she's in Brussels | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
to meet with her fellow EU leaders
where she's warning them to be wary | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
of "hostile states like Russia". | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
She's pledged the UK will stay
committed to European | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
security after Brexit,
and although Brexit isn't | 0:02:28 | 0:02:29 | |
on the official agenda it's
like to have come up at a meeting | 0:02:29 | 0:02:33 | |
with European council
president Donald Tusk. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:34 | |
Mr Tusk has called on the UK to show
more progress on the so-called | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
"divorce bill" if trade talks
are to begin this year. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
Here's the Prime Minister. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:41 | |
The summit here today is about
working with our eastern partners. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:43 | |
But, of course, I will be
having other meetings. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
I will be seeing President Tusk
here today, talking | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
about the positive discussions,
the positive negotiations | 0:02:48 | 0:02:49 | |
we are having, looking
ahead to the future, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:51 | |
it deepens the special
partnership that I want... | 0:02:51 | 0:02:53 | |
Are you putting
a figure on the table? | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
..That I want with
the European Union. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:57 | |
These negotiations are continuing. | 0:02:57 | 0:02:58 | |
What I'm clear about is that we are
going to step forward together. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
This is for both the UK and the EU
to move onto the next stage. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:11 | |
Is now broadly accepted the Prime
Minister will now present a figure, | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
even if it isn't in pounds, pens,
and viewers, but I financial offer | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
to Donald Tusk? Essentially, yes. --
pounds, pennies, and euros. We will | 0:03:19 | 0:03:28 | |
pay something. The decision
ultimately hinges on how much of an | 0:03:28 | 0:03:35 | |
outstanding budget is owed. Even if
they've isn't a figure, somebody | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
will do the sums and say that it is
roughly 30, 40 billion. Everybody | 0:03:38 | 0:03:44 | |
will want to avoid a headline number
everybody can point at. But it will | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
be roughly more than the 20 billion
suggested. How confident are you | 0:03:48 | 0:03:55 | |
that talk of an improved financial
offer, if that is what we are | 0:03:55 | 0:03:59 | |
talking about, will be met with an
agreement to move onto trade talks? | 0:03:59 | 0:04:04 | |
Nobody in the circumstances can be
confident. It is smoke and mirrors. | 0:04:04 | 0:04:08 | |
It's a poker game. We don't know how
it is being played. From what one | 0:04:08 | 0:04:14 | |
reads it would appear that as the
deadline approaches minds are | 0:04:14 | 0:04:20 | |
becoming concentrated. I've always
taken the view that the European | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
Union has more to lose from a no
deal outcome. That isn't to say | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
Britain doesn't have a lot to lose,
as well, but in my view the EU will | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
be in a desperate situation if there
were no deal. I've always thought | 0:04:32 | 0:04:37 | |
that the balance of power was on the
British side, the British | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
negotiators' side. It hasn't seemed
to me that they are in agreement | 0:04:41 | 0:04:47 | |
with that analysis themselves. What
concerns me is that they may be | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
playing a strong hand very weakly.
In which case they will lose out. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
But one doesn't know. All of this is
fainting in the sense of smoke and | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
mirrors. I would hope we don't know
what the actual negotiation position | 0:04:59 | 0:05:04 | |
is. Because in this poker game they
have to keep everybody guessing. It | 0:05:04 | 0:05:09 | |
slightly overstate the value of the
UK Budget contribution to the entire | 0:05:09 | 0:05:18 | |
EU budget position. The UK
Government position is that they | 0:05:18 | 0:05:23 | |
want a deal. The decision has been
made by ministers and the Prime | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
Minister that they no deal scenario
would be terrible... But the threat | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
of walking away, is that not a card
they hold? It is a card they don't | 0:05:31 | 0:05:38 | |
want to realistically play. All of
this stuff about no deal at bluffing | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
is now separate. It was clear
already a month ago that as the UK | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
moved a bit more on the money, and
the closer they would get to a deal. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
But it has now found a way of doing
that. And it is a continuation of | 0:05:49 | 0:05:55 | |
the card game analogy, the wild card
is the question of the Irish border. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
Which was always one of the top
issues the commission said had to be | 0:05:59 | 0:06:04 | |
resolved before moving onto trade
talks. What's important is that the | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
UK behind the scenes will be
essentially saying we have more or | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
less solved citizen rights. We have
more or less decided on the European | 0:06:12 | 0:06:17 | |
Court of Justice... The Irish border
will be a sticking point. Exactly. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
Why there will be a lot of
conversations about security is they | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
will say we've done two out of
three, the Irish border is a | 0:06:25 | 0:06:30 | |
complicated issue. Can we just agree
to fudge the whole Irish question a | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
little bit. But also going to EU
member states saying we know you | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
want to support the Irish on this
but there isn't a deal that can be | 0:06:38 | 0:06:44 | |
done on this. Can the UK Prime
Minister peel off the other 26 | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
members to say, sorry to Ireland,
you cannot have what you want right | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
now, we must move on. Fudging a
political position, who would have | 0:06:51 | 0:06:56 | |
thought it! | 0:06:56 | 0:06:57 | |
We've talked a lot this week about
what was in Phillip Hammond's Budget | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
speech on Wednesday,
but today we're going to be talking | 0:07:00 | 0:07:03 | |
about something that was rather
conspicuous by its absence - | 0:07:03 | 0:07:05 | |
defence - and that's despite a group
of former Conservative defence | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
ministers urging him to give more
money to the armed forces. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
Annual defence expenditure in the UK
has met the NATO benchmark | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
of 2%, ever since records began ANI. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
However in recent years | 0:07:15 | 0:07:16 | |
previously-excluded expenditure,
such as contributions to UN | 0:07:16 | 0:07:17 | |
peacekeeping missions
as well as provisions for war | 0:07:17 | 0:07:19 | |
pensions, have been included
to meet this target | 0:07:19 | 0:07:21 | |
The government has promised
to increase Defence spending, | 0:07:21 | 0:07:23 | |
although the department is already
committed to finding £20 billion | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
of savings over the next 10 years
as part of an efficiency programme. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:36 | |
The UK has the fifth biggest defence
budget in the world. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
With an army totalling
155,474, including Gurkhas | 0:07:46 | 0:07:47 | |
and full-time reservists. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:53 | |
However there are continuing reports | 0:07:53 | 0:07:54 | |
of shortages of manpower
and equipment. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
This week HMS Diamond, a Type 45
destroyer costing £1 billion, | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
had to head back to the UK after it
struggled with its | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
engine warm water. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
That leaves all six Type 45
destroyers in port in the UK, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
awaiting refits to rectify problems
with their propulsion systems. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:13 | |
And reports last month suggested
the Royal Marines could be | 0:08:13 | 0:08:15 | |
cut by 1,000 personnel. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:16 | |
The Cabinet Office is currently
conducting a mini-Defence | 0:08:16 | 0:08:18 | |
and Security review looking
at military capabilities | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
and funding up to 2022,
which will report back next month. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:30 | |
We're joined now by the Conservative
MP and defence select committee | 0:08:38 | 0:08:39 | |
Here is Lord Alan West
talking on the subject. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
These commitments demand
hard combat power. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:07 | |
And I fear that our military
is being hollowed out to such an | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
extent that we are no longer
capable of providing it. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
My Lords, few of our
population realise that STSR | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
2010 cuts our military capability
by a third, by one third, | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
it is quite extraordinary. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:19 | |
And STSR 2015 has not resolved that. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:20 | |
And the Americans have expressed
growing concern about | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
this diminishing
military capability. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
Well we did ask to speak
to a minister this morning but it | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
seems none was available,
however I'm pleased to say we're | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
joined now by the Conservative MP
and defence select committee member | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
Jonny Mercer, he's in our Plymouth
studio, and by the former Labour | 0:09:33 | 0:09:36 | |
minister and former head of the navy
Alan West. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:44 | |
Welcome. When you set the Armed
Forces are being hollowed out, what | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
evidence do you have? Effectively,
certain aspects of training have | 0:09:48 | 0:09:54 | |
been stopped. Spare gear, spare
items, logistic type stuff is not | 0:09:54 | 0:10:00 | |
available. The repair work that
needs to be done on complex | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
equipment isn't being fully done or
properly done. It's a whole raft of | 0:10:03 | 0:10:08 | |
those measures that have been taken
because, yes, they are saying let's | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
find £70 billion worth of
efficiency. Since I've been in the | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
Navy, I joined 52 years ago, we have
been finding efficiencies. Because | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
governments always say that. There
comes a stage where there -- it | 0:10:21 | 0:10:28 | |
isn't an efficiency thing. Cuts them
happen. And they are very large. The | 0:10:28 | 0:10:34 | |
Armed Forces have always said they
need more money to mitigate the | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
expected cuts. I just said it is the
defence Budget in the world, it is | 0:10:37 | 0:10:44 | |
still a big budget with a lot of
money behind it. It is a big budget. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:50 | |
We are the fifth or six largest
economy in the world, so it makes | 0:10:50 | 0:10:56 | |
sense. We are also a permanent
member of the UN Security Council. | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
We are there because our military
capability was one of the biggest | 0:11:00 | 0:11:05 | |
powers in the Second World War. The
reason we hold key appointments | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
within Nato is because the United
States and United Kingdom, up until | 0:11:08 | 0:11:13 | |
recently, ensured really the defence
and security of Europe. We are the | 0:11:13 | 0:11:18 | |
people who really did it. Now they
are saying, why should the UK have | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
these senior jobs? Because we have
cut our defence capabilities so | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
much. What do you want to see in
this defence and Security review | 0:11:27 | 0:11:32 | |
currently being conducted? I hope it
will show we are in increasingly | 0:11:32 | 0:11:40 | |
unpredictable and dangerous world.
Weren't we always? I think it is | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
more so. There was a certain
stability even back during the Cold | 0:11:43 | 0:11:49 | |
War. It's become more unpredictable
and more chaotic. I'm sure it will | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
show that. And I hope it will say
that we need to apply some real | 0:11:52 | 0:11:58 | |
funding to this, not 2% done with
smoke and mirrors, but by including | 0:11:58 | 0:12:07 | |
things... You cannot kill enemies
with civilian war pensions, I'm | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
afraid. You need combat power. Do
you think those efficiency savings | 0:12:11 | 0:12:17 | |
should be scrapped? I think it's
always right to look for | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
efficiencies. It's always right look
to see if there is a better way of | 0:12:21 | 0:12:25 | |
doing things. You are right about
the size of the Budget. We've always | 0:12:25 | 0:12:29 | |
had concerns about procurement. We
should look in procurement area. I | 0:12:29 | 0:12:34 | |
think to assume that the way you are
going to be able to pay for | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
equipment you have ordered is by
efficiencies is a recipe for | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
disaster. You brought up the
procurement issue. The MOD has a | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
poor track record when it comes to
procurement. We talked about the | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
type 45 destroyer, it cost £1
billion in 2005 to 2007, now the | 0:12:50 | 0:12:55 | |
engine will not work in hot water,
so all six destroyers are in the | 0:12:55 | 0:13:01 | |
port. Is our procurement strategy
just incompetent? I don't think so. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:06 | |
Things can be improved on there. The
type 45 comedies and billion pounds | 0:13:06 | 0:13:12 | |
each, the programme was £6.2 billion
for what ended up as six ships. -- | 0:13:12 | 0:13:18 | |
the type 45, you said was £1 billion
each. It was initially meant to be | 0:13:18 | 0:13:27 | |
12 ships. What we keep doing is make
political decisions which add to | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
costs. The aircraft carriers were £2
million more expensive because when | 0:13:32 | 0:13:36 | |
the crash came Gordon Brown's
government delayed them by about a | 0:13:36 | 0:13:40 | |
year and a half. But adds cost.
Political decisions have hit | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
procurement and caused problems.
Were you surprised that there was | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
not mention of defence in the
Budget? I wasn't. I've always | 0:13:48 | 0:13:55 | |
thought offence was the poor
relation in terms of government | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
policy and government priorities. To
me, defence is the single most | 0:13:59 | 0:14:06 | |
important requirement of a
government, to defend the country. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:09 | |
It should be given high priority. Do
you think we are exposed? Always. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:16 | |
The challenges are changing all the
time as Lord West says. In recent | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
years, in recent decades, I think
politicians have come to believe, | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
which I think is probably true, that
among the public there is no sense | 0:14:24 | 0:14:30 | |
of urgency about defence. And more
than that, a distaste for defence. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
Difference doesn't mean defence, it
means killing people. -- defence | 0:14:35 | 0:14:41 | |
doesn't mean. I think the country
has become pacifist. Dangerously so. | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
It is unwilling to go to war. Do you
agree? | 0:14:45 | 0:14:54 | |
It's reasonable to not want to go to
war, but where Melanie is right if | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
there is important historical
context. After the Cold War, it felt | 0:14:58 | 0:15:04 | |
as if there was a peace dividend,
the world was safer and therefore | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
there was more money available to
divert other things. We've now seen | 0:15:07 | 0:15:13 | |
a situation where there is not much
money available for all sorts of | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
things. There's a political
challenge to explain to the country | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
why you would need to spend
resources that might be spent on | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
health on defence instead. An
additional factor is the point about | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
Nato which is when you have Donald
Trump as president of the US, he's | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
not that interested in European
security, he's interested in other | 0:15:31 | 0:15:36 | |
theatres. So it falls to the UK and
France to be basically the military | 0:15:36 | 0:15:41 | |
powers that support Western
democracy, security in Europe. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:46 | |
Ultimately facing Russia. How you
organise that and find that, whether | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
there is adequate funding is a
different question, but that has | 0:15:49 | 0:15:54 | |
massively change the strategic
catalyst in the last year. Do you | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
think it is two disingenuous to
include UN pensions in this? Yes. | 0:15:57 | 0:16:10 | |
Yes, we never historically did this,
we were at 2.4% before the coalition | 0:16:10 | 0:16:15 | |
came in. Effectively we've gone down
to about 1.9%. In the way that | 0:16:15 | 0:16:21 | |
percentage, what do we require? What
we need? Hopefully distribute will | 0:16:21 | 0:16:26 | |
do it but I'm not holding my breath.
-- hopefully this review will do it. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:31 | |
This is true in every department
budget, you could say we were | 0:16:31 | 0:16:36 | |
talking about health, schools,
everyone can make their case on | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
their priority and the fiscal
situation is such and the growth | 0:16:39 | 0:16:43 | |
situations are so bad that the
priorities have to be made. I would | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
support what Melanie said, they all
say it, Prime Minister after Prime | 0:16:48 | 0:16:52 | |
Minister, defence and other
secretaries, the most important | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
thing for any government is the
defence of our people and quick as a | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
flash they don't do it. I know from
three years in government, | 0:17:00 | 0:17:04 | |
governments can afford what they
want is to afford. I think it has | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
been pusillanimous and putting us on
a path to danger. Before we let you | 0:17:07 | 0:17:14 | |
go, because we have not been able to
reach Johnny Mercer, with some | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
technical problems, Michael Fallon,
the former Defence Secretary, said | 0:17:18 | 0:17:22 | |
in the budget debate that he hopes
to speak more freely than the | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
constraint of government allowed.
You think you will be a useful ally | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
in the argument you have been
making? I wouldn't have thought so | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
up until recently. I think he was
disingenuous about what was being | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
provided for defence but he suddenly
had the conversion of five or six | 0:17:36 | 0:17:43 | |
days before he went and suddenly
said, we need more money for defence | 0:17:43 | 0:17:47 | |
which is the truth. If he's going to
be saying that, I'm delighted. I | 0:17:47 | 0:17:52 | |
would hesitate to say he is a
hands-on chap, but I hope he will | 0:17:52 | 0:17:57 | |
say the right thing. We do need more
money for defence. If you look in | 0:17:57 | 0:18:02 | |
the Lords, every corner of the
Lords, every corner of the Commons, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
they are all saying, there's a real
problem here and the front benches | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
ignore it or say, it's all fine. And
it can't be if it's that difficult. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:16 | |
The University of Liverpool has seen
the latest campaign to rename | 0:18:16 | 0:18:18 | |
a building because of claims that it
honours a historical figure | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
connected with the slave trade. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:22 | |
But is this a sensible response
to society's changing | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
views, or another example
of oversensitivity in our | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
universities and beyond? | 0:18:27 | 0:18:29 | |
They say history is
written by the victors. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:37 | |
Just as our taste for
fashion and art evolves, | 0:18:37 | 0:18:39 | |
so to do our values,
and in turn, our view | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
of that history. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
William Gladstone, campaigning
liberal and still the only | 0:18:45 | 0:18:46 | |
British Prime Minister to serve four
terms, may not seem the obvious | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
choice for reappraisal. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
But Tinaye Mapako, who's a medical
student in Gladstone's | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
home city of Liverpool,
is one of a group of undergraduates | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
who launched a campaign
to remove his name from | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
the student accommodation block. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
I think it was finding out
about his role in the works | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
for compensating slave owners. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
He helped gain some,
the equivalent of some | 0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | |
£4 million in today's money. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
I mean, some people will think,
William Gladstone, one | 0:19:15 | 0:19:17 | |
of our greatest prime ministers,
known for being a great reformer, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
they will be surprised that
you've singled him out. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
I think that's a wonderful
case of what about-ery. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
It's really great that people
are talking about other | 0:19:27 | 0:19:29 | |
stuff that Gladstone did,
but that doesn't really | 0:19:29 | 0:19:31 | |
answer the question
that we are offering to people. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
We're talking about the issue
of slavery and how we commemorate | 0:19:35 | 0:19:38 | |
people's role in the slave trade. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
Liverpool is a city built
on the slave trade. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
Penny Lane, made famous
by the Beatles, was in fact | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
named after James Penny,
a man who owned slave ships. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
This campaign by Liverpool students
is one of the growing number | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
all over the world aimed at removing
the dedications and statues | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
to those men who profited
from the slave trade. | 0:19:55 | 0:20:01 | |
A movement kick-started in the US. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
Earlier this year, New Orleans
removed all Confederate monuments | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
on the city's parks and streets,
while Yale University announced | 0:20:07 | 0:20:11 | |
it was removing symbols
of Vice President John Calhoun, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
a Southerner, and staunch
defender of slavery. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
The Rhodes Must Fall movement
started in South Africa | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
but quickly moved to Oxford,
where students were ultimately | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
unsuccessful in campaigning
to remove the statue of imperialist | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
Cecil Rhodes. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
But earlier this year,
Bristol's Colston Hall, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
a well-known music venue,
became the first significant | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
institution in the UK to bow
to public pressure and remove | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
the name of the notable
17th-century philanthropist | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
and slaver Edward Colston. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
It's a trend some
believe is unhelpful. | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
I don't think it helps
to knock down statues, | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
or knock down buildings,
because then we're | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
not going to learn. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:54 | |
What we need to learn
is that there are absolute evils, | 0:20:54 | 0:20:57 | |
including slavery, but also
that they were people of their time. | 0:20:57 | 0:21:03 | |
And Gladstone was not
a bad human being. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
For men of his class
and his education, that's simply | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
what people thought. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:11 | |
And within that, he was a much
better man than many. | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
But while Liverpool's student union
doesn't take an official view, | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
it does think that the debate
is one worth having. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
And they intend to hold a student
referendum later this term. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
I think it's really positive to see
students engaging in a critical | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
outlook on the environment. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:35 | |
I think the very fact
that people are talking | 0:21:35 | 0:21:38 | |
about it is a really academic way
to investigate our history | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
and I think it informs the way
we live our lives now. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
So the students at Liverpool
are the next generation of leaders, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
the idea that they are questioning
things that have gone before them | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
is a really positive sign. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:50 | |
The University of Liverpool said any
official request for a name change | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
would have to go through a formal
process, and while the names | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
and statues that pack the city
reflect a sometimes difficult | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
history, they also offer
an important reminder of the past. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:02 | |
We're joined by Femi Nylander, an
activist from the Rhodes Must Fall | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
campaign. You heard it mentioned.
Welcome to the programme. Calling | 0:22:10 | 0:22:15 | |
for statues or names of historical
figures to be removed because you | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
don't like them and you think they
represent something controversial, | 0:22:19 | 0:22:24 | |
but doing it without contextualising
it, or revising it or putting it at | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
the time that these people were
alive, is not a form of censorship? | 0:22:28 | 0:22:33 | |
Talking about contextualising and
something being contentious, this is | 0:22:33 | 0:22:39 | |
not contentious. Slavery is not
contentious, it was a crime against | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
humanity on a mass scale. And
Gladstone's use are not contentious. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
It's not just the fact that he got
his father paid off to the tune of | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
what is in today's money the
equivalent of 83 million, that is | 0:22:50 | 0:22:55 | |
just his father, but the rest of the
people he got paid off, when he was | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
53 in the 60s, when he was already
Chancellor, he was defending the | 0:22:58 | 0:23:03 | |
Jefferson Davis and the US civil war
saying they should be able to | 0:23:03 | 0:23:10 | |
succeed. He was a staunch supporter
of slavery and he also helps run the | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
British Empire but that is a
different thing. When you talk about | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
these monuments and statues, talking
about Gladstone's role in the slave | 0:23:17 | 0:23:24 | |
trade and Cecil Rhodes's history of
colonialism only started in this | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
country because of these movements.
Do you agree? I don't. Gladstone was | 0:23:28 | 0:23:34 | |
not a staunch supporter of slavery
and what you say was true about his | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
father and the compensation, but he
had a more complicated set of views, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
he was anti-slavery, he just
believed in a different way of | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
approaching it. He wanted the
slaves' conditions to be in fruit | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
and he wanted compensation for the
slave owners. It's not true to be a | 0:23:50 | 0:23:56 | |
staunch supporter of slavery, to say
he was, the opposite is true. I | 0:23:56 | 0:24:01 | |
think it's troubling, I understand
the strong feelings against slavery, | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
it was and remains an annihilate
evil, but this approach that says | 0:24:04 | 0:24:08 | |
that we should expunge it from
historical memory is wrong. We heard | 0:24:08 | 0:24:14 | |
how important it was in the context
of Liverpool that this controversy | 0:24:14 | 0:24:20 | |
has produced critical thinking,
students in gauging with the issue. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:22 | |
If the statue was not there, they
would not be in changing. Isn't it | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
about learning from history? Anthony
Seldon said, there are absolute | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
evils and you may think that this
case William Gladstone did represent | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
in some form an absolute evil, but
without reference to history, how | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
will people talk about it and learn
about it? We leave aside the | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
question whether or not he was a
staunch supporter... We will move | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
on. In terms of how people will
learn from it, we had to start | 0:24:45 | 0:24:52 | |
teaching history, actually talking
about Britain's role in the slave | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
trade. And aren't these people part
of it? For example, if you take a | 0:24:55 | 0:25:00 | |
statue, if you go across the road,
there's Parliament Square. And you | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
have eight statue of Churchill, -- a
statue of Churchill and another | 0:25:03 | 0:25:10 | |
founder of apartheid, alongside a
statue of Cecil Rhodes and Mahatma | 0:25:10 | 0:25:15 | |
Gandhi and Nelson Mandela. Do you
recognise that Churchill was seen as | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
one of the Great War leaders? I
recognise that, and he is not seen | 0:25:18 | 0:25:24 | |
as a genocidal man who helped lead
to the death of 4 million people in | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
van Gaal. And we don't talk about
history. I'm fascinated about this | 0:25:29 | 0:25:39 | |
and ambivalent, but what is the
statute of limitations of went an | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
atrocity is just something you can
observe in history, and you can put | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
up monuments for people who are now
considered atrocious? There was a | 0:25:46 | 0:25:53 | |
statue of Cromwell, he was a
fanatical murderer for some people, | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
he would not be popular in Ireland,
and if they understood his | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
behaviour, people in this country,
in modern values. When you look at | 0:25:59 | 0:26:05 | |
what happened in the US with the
taking down of Confederate | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
monuments, those symbols were
rallying points for a very active | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
current extremely racist movement.
That's a different thing... They are | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
rallying points. But there are not
Gladstone supporters rallying in | 0:26:17 | 0:26:22 | |
this country. Britain was key to the
dismantling of Libya, and the slave | 0:26:22 | 0:26:28 | |
trading of black trading is going on
in Libya because of the actions of | 0:26:28 | 0:26:33 | |
Britain. Britain is still a very
colonial force in this world and | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
starting to deal with the history of
white Britain is the fifth richest | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
country in the world, why Britain is
causing foreign wars and | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
aggressions, is part of that,
starting to look at history, look at | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
people like Churchill. That's not
quite true. We don't deal with our | 0:26:47 | 0:26:51 | |
history. We don't talk about
history, Churchill is now the £5 | 0:26:51 | 0:26:56 | |
not. This is an ideological way of
looking at it, the slavery going on | 0:26:56 | 0:27:04 | |
in Libya, the people to blame other
people who are the slave owners in | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
those countries and those countries.
To blame Britain is perverse. And | 0:27:08 | 0:27:12 | |
you can go to any hero and almost
guaranteed that among their values | 0:27:12 | 0:27:17 | |
and attitudes, especially if they
were a long time ago, will be things | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
that we find a very, very
discomforting. Churchill undoubtedly | 0:27:21 | 0:27:23 | |
had some extremely dubious from our
point of view now attitudes to a lot | 0:27:23 | 0:27:28 | |
of things. Churchill said, if there
is a famine, why isn't Ghandi dead | 0:27:28 | 0:27:35 | |
yet? But you can findings about
Gandhi as well. Oh, yes, his statue | 0:27:35 | 0:27:40 | |
is next to Churchill. So would you
care all of these statues down? No, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:45 | |
I wouldn't. Why not? Where would you
draw the line? Melanie's .30 could | 0:27:45 | 0:27:52 | |
find things that are difficult and
uncomfortable, -- Malini's point, | 0:27:52 | 0:27:58 | |
that you could find things that are
difficult... There is difficult and | 0:27:58 | 0:28:03 | |
accountable, and there is helping to
lead to the death of 4 million | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
people... With you see that on the
same line as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam | 0:28:06 | 0:28:11 | |
Hussein? Yes, people loved the
statue of Saddam Hussein coming down | 0:28:11 | 0:28:17 | |
because he's not a British hero. I'm
fascinated by this distinction | 0:28:17 | 0:28:21 | |
because something has been erected
in the past because people wanted to | 0:28:21 | 0:28:26 | |
venerate a certain figure, which you
are now connecting to saying, means | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
ongoing complicity in something
appalling and atrocious that is | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
going on. I can see in the
Confederate case that is true, but | 0:28:33 | 0:28:38 | |
in the case of Gladstone or
Churchill, I don't see, it's quite a | 0:28:38 | 0:28:43 | |
big leap from people venerating this
person because of something they did | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
in the past and right now... People
right now do not deal with history. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:51 | |
Written right now does not teach in
its schools the history of | 0:28:51 | 0:28:55 | |
colonialism. It teaches the history
of slavery in the States but it | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
rarely teaches about the history of
slavery in the UK. Britain does not | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
deal with history. It would taking
the state to -- and would taking the | 0:29:02 | 0:29:09 | |
statutes down the order that? The
only reason we have had the | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
conversation in the last few decades
is the Rhodes Must Fall campaign and | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
the wave of movement in the
universities in the last couple of | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
years. We have seen a massive
backlash against us. I think these | 0:29:20 | 0:29:27 | |
debates have been going on
throughout... I remember them in the | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
80s. I said in the past few decades!
Thank you very much for coming in. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:37 | |
Much appreciated. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
The musician Matthew Herbert
is known for ignoring convention - | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
he's previously recorded the sound
of tanks, crematoriums, | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
coffin lids and arms fairs for use
in his electronic music, | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
which as you might have guessed can
be rather political. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:48 | |
His latest project, called
the 'Brexit Big Band', | 0:29:48 | 0:29:50 | |
includes setting Article 50 to music
and is described as a response | 0:29:50 | 0:29:54 | |
to quote "the message from parts
of the Brexit campaign that | 0:29:54 | 0:29:57 | |
as a nation we are
better off alone". | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
It's been in the news after it
emerged that the project has been | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
in part funded by the Department
for International Trade, | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
led by leading Brexit
supporter Liam Fox. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
Here's the Brexit
Big Band in action. | 0:30:07 | 0:30:17 | |
After Brexit, we decided to bring
the Daily Mail, which is a BLEEP | 0:30:17 | 0:30:20 | |
right-wing newspaper in England that
made a referendum about | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
sovereignty into something
about foreigners. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:28 | |
So, yeah, that's what
we're reading today. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:35 | |
MELLOW JAZZ, WITH RHYTHMIC RIPPING. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:46 | |
I'm happy to say Matthew joins me.
What was your motivation? Something | 0:30:55 | 0:31:01 | |
about identity. Thinking about a
sense of Britishness after the | 0:31:01 | 0:31:07 | |
Brexit vote. It seemed such a shock
to many of us that work and travel a | 0:31:07 | 0:31:13 | |
lot and Europe, have friends there,
and collaborate, it was such a | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
shock. For me it was being about
wanting to be part of that | 0:31:17 | 0:31:21 | |
conversation. To talk about the
things we've achieved. And not | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
wanting to let it go. So it's a
protest about Brexit? I think it is | 0:31:23 | 0:31:32 | |
accepted that Remain hast lost. It's
not a continuation of its campaign. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:37 | |
But it is about what kind of Brexit
do we want. It's clear the | 0:31:37 | 0:31:41 | |
government took us into this without
much of a plan. There is room for | 0:31:41 | 0:31:45 | |
other people to come up with other
plans and other visions. Why do you | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
think Brexit Woodstock friendships,
travel, and connections that | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
currently exist in and with Europe?
I was born in 1972. Europe has been | 0:31:53 | 0:32:00 | |
part of my whole life, really. Much
of what has enriched my life has | 0:32:00 | 0:32:06 | |
been working and collaborating with
people from all cultures. I feel | 0:32:06 | 0:32:12 | |
like it's not really clear what the
government is expressing about the | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
kind of Brexit they want. Is it
European style... Sorry, what kind | 0:32:16 | 0:32:21 | |
of Britain they want after Brexit,
is it European style, or is it | 0:32:21 | 0:32:25 | |
American in the low taxation idea.
Why do you think Brexit threatens | 0:32:25 | 0:32:37 | |
tolerance and creativity? You only
have to have a look at the spike in | 0:32:37 | 0:32:41 | |
hate crime after the Brexit vote.
Those figures are contested. Is that | 0:32:41 | 0:32:46 | |
the basis for your evidence, that it
will threaten tolerance in the | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
future? You only have to look at
some of the language coming out of | 0:32:50 | 0:32:54 | |
the newspapers about how we talk
about foreigners, how we talk about | 0:32:54 | 0:33:00 | |
people of colour, that kind of
thing. Melanie, part of this music | 0:33:00 | 0:33:05 | |
is ripping up the Daily Mail, are
you offended by that, used to write | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
for them? I think it's a rather
perverse and strange thing that a | 0:33:08 | 0:33:17 | |
message of tolerance takes the form
of tearing up the newspapers. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:19 | |
Because that is promoting hatred of
the Daily Mail. I appreciate the | 0:33:19 | 0:33:24 | |
Daily Mail provokes strong opinions.
To tear up newspapers has chilling | 0:33:24 | 0:33:31 | |
connotations for me. Destroying
literature... You know, burning | 0:33:31 | 0:33:35 | |
books, tearing up newspapers. The
deeper thing is, and I do appreciate | 0:33:35 | 0:33:40 | |
that for Remainers it is a sort of
grief, what has happened, but I | 0:33:40 | 0:33:46 | |
think that is a perverse attitude.
There is complete confusion between | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
the desire of the Brexiteers, of
whom I am very much one, to for | 0:33:50 | 0:33:56 | |
Britain to regain its reputation,
that we cannot be fully sovereign | 0:33:56 | 0:34:04 | |
and self-governing to do that. You
currently have a belief that we are | 0:34:04 | 0:34:10 | |
narrow, bigoted, that we will be
horrible to foreigners, that doesn't | 0:34:10 | 0:34:16 | |
follow... Is that what you are
saying? Where is the joy? Where is | 0:34:16 | 0:34:25 | |
the positivity? About Britain being
a self-governing nation, isn't that | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
great? There is nothing joyful about
this Government, nothing joyful | 0:34:29 | 0:34:33 | |
about this process, no reaching
out... That the Government. Melanie | 0:34:33 | 0:34:39 | |
speaks on the half of part of the
Brexit vote, when she feels strongly | 0:34:39 | 0:34:42 | |
about. I think a lot of people who
witnessed that campaign saw a very | 0:34:42 | 0:34:46 | |
deliberate, cynical mobilisation of
angry, xenophobic feeling. That was | 0:34:46 | 0:34:53 | |
intrinsic to some of the messages
put out by aspects of the Leave | 0:34:53 | 0:34:58 | |
campaign. But wounded people. -- but
that wounded people. It's quite | 0:34:58 | 0:35:06 | |
reasonable to suggest, firstly it
might not have crossed the finish | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
line ahead of Remain had it not
echoed some of those sentiments. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:15 | |
Some people who feel aggrieved by it
and sad about it have a passion | 0:35:15 | 0:35:21 | |
about British identity, British
democracy, and British sovereignty. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:24 | |
They just don't think the EU was the
corrosive force. I don't accept that | 0:35:24 | 0:35:29 | |
it mainly motivated xenophobia.
Going back before you were born, | 0:35:29 | 0:35:36 | |
going back to 1975 when I voted no
to Europe, have always been accused | 0:35:36 | 0:35:41 | |
of xenophobia. Simply because I
didn't think Britain should be in | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
the EU. It is people like me who
have been the target of hatred on | 0:35:44 | 0:35:49 | |
the basis that we are automatically
accused of bigotry, of xenophobia, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:54 | |
of racial prejudice, of
narrow-mindedness, of intolerance... | 0:35:54 | 0:36:00 | |
It is extraordinary that you
consider yourself to be addicting. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
Is ripping up the paper a hostile
act? -- consider yourself a victim. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:13 | |
Especially from somebody who was
supposed to be promoting tolerance. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:18 | |
For me I am interested in sound,
stories, I'm interested in it as | 0:36:18 | 0:36:25 | |
materials. It's not just the Daily
Mail. Wherever we go we ask | 0:36:25 | 0:36:30 | |
countries to provide newspapers who
they feel are pushing towards a more | 0:36:30 | 0:36:33 | |
divided society. We filmed this
concept in Syria, Russia, and China, | 0:36:33 | 0:36:40 | |
where the act has a different
connotation. Why should you have | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
funding from the Department of
International trade? That an | 0:36:44 | 0:36:48 | |
argument about arts subsidy.
According to the bpi, which is where | 0:36:48 | 0:36:53 | |
we got the money from, for every £1
they invest they get £10 back. They | 0:36:53 | 0:36:58 | |
see it as investment. The creative
industry provide a £2 billion worth | 0:36:58 | 0:37:04 | |
of income to this economy. Would
Liam Fox enjoy going to see this? | 0:37:04 | 0:37:12 | |
The underlying point is he
subsidises the arts, sometimes the | 0:37:12 | 0:37:15 | |
arts will do things and perform
things which make governments | 0:37:15 | 0:37:19 | |
uncomfortable. That the healthy
aspect. I must revisit this idea | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
that Brexiteers are the victim of
this. This is fascinating. The won. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:29 | |
The ultimate policy is the
overarching drive of what Government | 0:37:29 | 0:37:32 | |
is doing. -- they have won. The idea
of being pro-European is oppressing | 0:37:32 | 0:37:40 | |
the Brexit spirit, that's so
interesting... I said in the past | 0:37:40 | 0:37:47 | |
that is how we were perceived and
treated. There is no sense of | 0:37:47 | 0:37:53 | |
triumph... Remainers are the most
pessimistic people I've ever seen. | 0:37:53 | 0:38:02 | |
Brexiteers are the joyful ones. You
are bitter and miserable about it | 0:38:02 | 0:38:08 | |
all the time. How wonderful it is to
be democratic. I said that is how we | 0:38:08 | 0:38:15 | |
were treated. I also said how
wonderful it is Britain is becoming | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
a democratic nation. You say that is
joyless, but that is your view of | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
what happened. Don't talk over each
other because we will end this | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
debate. Thank you very much for
coming in. Thank you. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
The Conservatives came
in for criticism this | 0:38:31 | 0:38:32 | |
week following reports,
widely shared by campaigners | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
and celebrities online,
that Tory MPs had voted to reject | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
the idea that animals can feel pain. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
The party says it's been a victim
of "fake news", and the reports - | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
some of which have since been
corrected - didn't reflect reality. | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
Here's Emma Vardy to explain. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:45 | |
Have MPs decided that animals
don't have feelings? | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
Some people think they have. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:49 | |
And it's down to a vote that
happened in Parliament recently. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:51 | |
Since then, a lot of
people have been getting | 0:38:51 | 0:38:53 | |
really angry about this. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
These papers have been making out
that MPs don't care about animals. | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
And millions of people have been
reading and sharing stuff | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
like this on social media. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:03 | |
Celebrities have been
tweeting about it. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:10 | |
And hundreds of thousands of people
have signed petitions. | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
That's not the full story. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:14 | |
MPs didn't vote to say that animals
don't have feelings. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:16 | |
They're calling this fake news. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:17 | |
And the Minister Michael Gove says
the reporting was wrong. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
The Independent newspaper's
changed its story, and some | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
of the tweets have been taken down. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
So how did all this come about? | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
We need to go back a bit
to understand what's | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
actually happened here. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:31 | |
The idea that animals are capable
of feeling pain and suffering | 0:39:31 | 0:39:33 | |
is called animal sentience,
and has been a really big | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
thing for campaigners
in the animal rights movement. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
Back in the '80s and '90s,
campaigners decided the rules | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
on animal welfare weren't
up to scratch. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
Like the way live animals
are transported, or the way | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
they're slaughtered. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
Or how battery farmed hens are kept. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:51 | |
So they fought a long battle to get
the European Union to recognise | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
animals as sentient beings,
and even celebrities got involved. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
Campaigners started a petition that
got 1 million signatures. | 0:39:56 | 0:39:58 | |
Which wasn't easy back then
before the Internet. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:04 | |
And the EU did take notice. | 0:40:04 | 0:40:06 | |
The rule on animal sentience
was finally written into an EU | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
treaty, the Lisbon Treaty, in 2009. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
It was a big win for animal welfare,
a real victory for campaigners. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
But now, because we're leaving
the EU, the UK won't be bound | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
by these rules any more. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:20 | |
So campaigners wanted to transfer
the rules on animal sentience | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
from the EU treaty into UK law,
so it would still be | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
there after Brexit. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:29 | |
The Green Party MP Caroline Lucas
tried to persuade everyone | 0:40:29 | 0:40:31 | |
that this was a good idea. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
But Conservative MPs voted
against it and it was turned down. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
And that's where the row started. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:40 | |
But most MPs believe,
even without the EU treaty, | 0:40:40 | 0:40:44 | |
animal protection won't be affected
because they say animal sentience | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
is already covered in UK law
in the Animal Welfare Act, so it's | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
just not true to say that MPs voted
that animals don't have feelings. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:54 | |
But campaigners aren't convinced. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:58 | |
And they still believe an important
principle is being lost. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
Michael Gove, the minister
in charge of farming, | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
has said he will strengthen animal
welfare rules and that there | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
won't be a gap in our laws
after we leave the EU. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:13 | |
And joining me now is
the Green Party's Home Affairs | 0:41:13 | 0:41:15 | |
Spokesperson Shahrar Ali
and the Conservative | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
MP Zac Goldsmith. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:21 | |
Welcome. The Government says the
amendment put down by Caroline Lucas | 0:41:21 | 0:41:27 | |
was faulty, it wasn't good enough,
and they will bring forward any | 0:41:27 | 0:41:32 | |
legislation to make the UK a world
leader on animal welfare. What's | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
wrong with that? It's a good job we
put that amendment. If you were | 0:41:36 | 0:41:43 | |
really worried about the detail of
the amendment and thought it was | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
worth doing you would amend it. This
is a vital, important piece of | 0:41:46 | 0:41:51 | |
legislation. There is a difference
between acknowledging animals can | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
feel pain and that they are 70 and
creatures. That goes far further | 0:41:55 | 0:42:02 | |
than their capacity to suffer. --
sentient creatures. The animal | 0:42:02 | 0:42:11 | |
welfare act of 2006 does not
subscribe to this. It mentions | 0:42:11 | 0:42:17 | |
sentience in the preamble, but it
does not mention it specifically. Do | 0:42:17 | 0:42:21 | |
you think there was inaccurate
reporting of this amendment which | 0:42:21 | 0:42:25 | |
implied the Government doesn't
accept animals feel pain? I accept | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
there has been misreporting. But you
must look at what is being reported. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:34 | |
Was that misreported? You must make
a distinction between where people | 0:42:34 | 0:42:38 | |
are voting against -- were people
voting against sentience, or were | 0:42:38 | 0:42:43 | |
they voting against the act which
protects it, which had sentience at | 0:42:43 | 0:42:50 | |
its core. The reason it has become
controversial is because sentience | 0:42:50 | 0:43:01 | |
is an established proof about
animals. It would be a good | 0:43:01 | 0:43:07 | |
candidate for what is currently
being described as fake news that | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
MPs voted against the idea of animal
sentience. Is it important that | 0:43:11 | 0:43:16 | |
animal sentience is recognised in
law? Yes. There isn't a single MP in | 0:43:16 | 0:43:22 | |
any party in any corner of this
country that doesn't believe animals | 0:43:22 | 0:43:24 | |
are sentient. If you look at the
transcript of the debate we are | 0:43:24 | 0:43:30 | |
talking about, that was acknowledged
by every person who contributed on | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
this issue to that debate. There was
no debate about sentience. The | 0:43:34 | 0:43:39 | |
Government's problem was the wording
of the amendment. It's not just | 0:43:39 | 0:43:43 | |
raising animal welfare standards,
which we are doing, there is a | 0:43:43 | 0:43:50 | |
complicit in a clear statement we've
had from Michael Gove that we will | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
find the best route to make sure
sentience is incorporated into UK | 0:43:53 | 0:43:57 | |
law. There's a disagreement whether
Richard B in the withdrawal bill, in | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
a forthcoming animal welfare Bill,
whether we should be amending | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
previous bills, or whether there
should be an environment bill. -- | 0:44:05 | 0:44:09 | |
whether it is the withdrawal bill.
This story is fake news because | 0:44:09 | 0:44:16 | |
nothing has changed. It doesn't
matter how we do that, as long as we | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
do it and we will do it. You do
accept that the 2006 animal welfare | 0:44:19 | 0:44:25 | |
act does not go far enough? It
doesn't cover all animals, for | 0:44:25 | 0:44:31 | |
example, laboratory animals, or wild
animals. And it puts the onus on | 0:44:31 | 0:44:36 | |
owners of animals, but not on the
Government, do you accept that is an | 0:44:36 | 0:44:39 | |
inadequate law? | 0:44:39 | 0:44:43 | |
Not only do I access it but Michael
Gove access it as well, his | 0:44:43 | 0:44:47 | |
statement makes that clear. -- we
both accept this. I just want to | 0:44:47 | 0:44:57 | |
make the thing, symbolically,
sentience needs to be recognised but | 0:44:57 | 0:45:00 | |
let's not pretend this is a high
benchmark that emanates from the | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
European Union. Under the protection
of that law, we have bull-fighting, | 0:45:04 | 0:45:09 | |
and veal farming, beyond cruel,
factory farming conditions, we have | 0:45:09 | 0:45:15 | |
donkey torture, fur farming, one of
the worst things imaginable are | 0:45:15 | 0:45:17 | |
permitted under this principle. Our
standards have always been high and | 0:45:17 | 0:45:24 | |
we have had seen fireworks as they
of activity in the last four months, | 0:45:24 | 0:45:29 | |
putting animal welfare at the heart
of the environment. We have been | 0:45:29 | 0:45:34 | |
raising sentencing to people who are
cruel to animals, I could go on for | 0:45:34 | 0:45:39 | |
20 minutes. You have gone on for
quite a long time. Passionate though | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
you are. Do you accept that, it's
the case that you just don't trust | 0:45:43 | 0:45:49 | |
the Conservative government, which
you may not to back their words with | 0:45:49 | 0:45:52 | |
action with any new legislation
which has put forward, or really | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
have just misjudged this row? I
accept that Zac Goldsmith and | 0:45:55 | 0:46:01 | |
Michael Gove as well do come across
and probably do personally have a | 0:46:01 | 0:46:06 | |
great commitment to animal welfare
and animal rights. The problem is, | 0:46:06 | 0:46:08 | |
what people are incredulous about is
on the one hand trying to claim that | 0:46:08 | 0:46:13 | |
we believe that animals have
sentience, on the other hand, not | 0:46:13 | 0:46:18 | |
committing to this amendment which
would have us commit to ensuring | 0:46:18 | 0:46:23 | |
that that was in any future policy
on this matter. So I don't I accept | 0:46:23 | 0:46:27 | |
that this is not real news, that
people are incredulous and emotional | 0:46:27 | 0:46:33 | |
and upset and angry that we are not
prepared to say on EU legislation | 0:46:33 | 0:46:38 | |
which was originally spearheaded by
the UK, that of course, we will be | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
committing to this today. Why not?
If you, and he made a very personal | 0:46:42 | 0:46:46 | |
offence there of the UK Government
in terms of its standards, if you | 0:46:46 | 0:46:53 | |
all government is so committed to
welfare, why doesn't the government | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
put its money where its mouth is
through the EU withdrawal bill, why | 0:46:57 | 0:47:01 | |
isn't that an adequate instrument to
put in place the things that you | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
have talked about, bring over the EU
law, that the point of the bill. I | 0:47:04 | 0:47:09 | |
have been an MP for nearly seven
years and I've never been a defender | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
of the government's record on
environment or welfare. The last | 0:47:12 | 0:47:18 | |
four months have been different.
Answer the question, why not use the | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
EU withdrawal bill? There was no
argued about the sentiment in the | 0:47:21 | 0:47:27 | |
amendment, the principles were
accented by the MPs that spoke and | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
the government. But they did not
vote, to be accurate, you are right | 0:47:30 | 0:47:35 | |
in saying that nobody voted that
animals are not sentience because | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
that wasn't up for a vote that they
did not vote that they were so you | 0:47:38 | 0:47:44 | |
can see how the impression came from
a story that actually the government | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
and its MPs did not support this
idea that animals are sentience, why | 0:47:47 | 0:47:54 | |
not use the EU withdraw Bill is the
better to deal with it now? We we | 0:47:54 | 0:48:03 | |
are committed to legislate for
animal sentience, that is for the | 0:48:03 | 0:48:09 | |
government to do, we have been told
in a written statement that there | 0:48:09 | 0:48:14 | |
will be no gaps between us leaving
the EU and this. We are not having | 0:48:14 | 0:48:19 | |
to be dragged to do this, the
commitment is there. I don't member | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
a single piece... Hang on, it's
quite got to stop you in your flow. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:28 | |
This really does not wash. The
public, animal welfare campaigners, | 0:48:28 | 0:48:35 | |
sick and tired of politicians not
putting their money where their | 0:48:35 | 0:48:38 | |
mouth is. This was a golden
opportunity for us to demonstrate | 0:48:38 | 0:48:42 | |
our commitment, not just in words
but indeed, to say that this part of | 0:48:42 | 0:48:47 | |
the legislation which the UK
spearheaded, and obligate the | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
government, not just owners and
keepers of animals, obligated the | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
government and puts the urgency upon
them, and the default on them, to | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
actually commit to this, that would
be a commitment, this was not a | 0:48:57 | 0:49:01 | |
commitment. But that's the thing.
The commitment is there. I don't | 0:49:01 | 0:49:06 | |
know what more is being asked of
Michael Gove. The vote. In a | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
ministerial statement, I don't
remember a single piece of | 0:49:10 | 0:49:14 | |
legislation where an opposition
amendment has been tabled, in the | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
last seven years, whether sentiment
is accepted but the government has | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
not chosen to come back with its own
version. That is what happened. This | 0:49:21 | 0:49:26 | |
is not unusual, you know this as a
presenter of a political programme, | 0:49:26 | 0:49:30 | |
this is bog-standard stuff. My views
are not important. That's how | 0:49:30 | 0:49:35 | |
legislation is improved, that's the
whole point. We are in different | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
water to the EU withdrawal bill and
Brexit. Social media, Michael Gove | 0:49:38 | 0:49:44 | |
said this media that social media
corrupts and distort reporting and | 0:49:44 | 0:49:49 | |
decision making. He obviously feels
this on this issue, has he got a | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
point? He has a certain point to the
extent that one of the fascinating | 0:49:52 | 0:49:56 | |
things about this is that normally
government, the mode of government | 0:49:56 | 0:50:00 | |
is to respond to pressure from media
if they open the newspapers, they | 0:50:00 | 0:50:04 | |
see the front page of the Daily
Mail, particularly for the | 0:50:04 | 0:50:07 | |
Conservatives, maybe the Guardian if
it's Labour, they see the front | 0:50:07 | 0:50:10 | |
pages after the budget and it's bad
news, they're being attacked, they | 0:50:10 | 0:50:14 | |
think, we have to respond. This was
not noticed by any of that. This is | 0:50:14 | 0:50:18 | |
only about 24 or 48 hours later that
he started to see through Facebook | 0:50:18 | 0:50:24 | |
this outflow of anger and that
turned into e-mails arriving in MP | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
's inboxes. The fact is, all kinds
of journalists and media outlets | 0:50:28 | 0:50:34 | |
have distorted and Mr pedantic and
applied partisan agendas, true on | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
print and in Facebook two -- they
have distorted and put their own | 0:50:37 | 0:50:44 | |
bias on it. But Facebook amplifies
this so massively, that something | 0:50:44 | 0:50:49 | |
like this can suddenly hit
Parliament like tidal wave. That is | 0:50:49 | 0:50:54 | |
much more adjusting than this
question. This is a non-argument. -- | 0:50:54 | 0:51:00 | |
this is much more interesting than
this question. The government has | 0:51:00 | 0:51:04 | |
responded, they were busy taken back
by the wealth of comment on social | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
media. There was a very bad headline
in the Independent which was | 0:51:07 | 0:51:11 | |
basically a lie, so let's not...
They did rewrite it. But it was | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
because of Facebook. I find this
whole row of taxing. This -- | 0:51:15 | 0:51:23 | |
perplexing. This business sentience,
why is it so important? On the one | 0:51:23 | 0:51:27 | |
hand, everybody agrees that animals
feel pain and distress. And every | 0:51:27 | 0:51:33 | |
piece of government legislation
since time in Memorial, to promote | 0:51:33 | 0:51:39 | |
animal welfare, implicitly
understand that animals feel pain. | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
Do you have do incorporate all
animals? Hume need perhaps to widen | 0:51:42 | 0:51:48 | |
your groups of animals. Basically if
the government accepts that | 0:51:48 | 0:51:53 | |
sentience is there anyway, why is it
so determined to prevent this | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
legislation? On the contrary, where
the greens are so determined to put | 0:51:56 | 0:52:02 | |
sentience in, and what you said,
that is the evidence, you said, the | 0:52:02 | 0:52:09 | |
evidence is that sentience goes
further than feeling pain. Sentience | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
is not just feeling pain and
distress, which we all agreed must | 0:52:12 | 0:52:15 | |
not happen to animals, sentience
gets us into this metaphysical area | 0:52:15 | 0:52:21 | |
of, our animals as conscious as we
are? Do they feel... Have you taking | 0:52:21 | 0:52:26 | |
it too far? That takes us into the
area of equating animals and humans. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:33 | |
There is a debate worth having about
what level of respect and value we | 0:52:33 | 0:52:38 | |
accord to our fellow animals.
Nonhuman animals. And part of the | 0:52:38 | 0:52:43 | |
reason my sentience is so critical,
because there have been established | 0:52:43 | 0:52:48 | |
scientific and psychological studies
which demonstrate that pain, the | 0:52:48 | 0:52:50 | |
lowest level of psychological
response, is an insufficient way of | 0:52:50 | 0:52:54 | |
describing the inner life of animals
in terms of emotions, the capacity | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
to suffer. The very fact that
Melanie is questioning how to define | 0:52:57 | 0:53:03 | |
sentience demonstrates that we
should have that as a threshold. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:06 | |
This fills me with concern because
the inner life of animals takes us | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
straight into the analogy between
animals and humans which devalues | 0:53:10 | 0:53:13 | |
humans. I think you can say that is
a red herring. What is your take on | 0:53:13 | 0:53:19 | |
this final point? It a nice academic
debate, the reality is that there is | 0:53:19 | 0:53:25 | |
no gap to wear Michael Gove is and
where the Green party spokesman is, | 0:53:25 | 0:53:29 | |
we are putting sentience into UK's
law, Michael Gove's payment could | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
not be more clear. I will take one
more point. I have only got a black | 0:53:33 | 0:53:39 | |
screen so I don't know who the
previous commentator was, this | 0:53:39 | 0:53:44 | |
avalanche of social media, it has
taken us by surprise, no doubt. On | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
one level it's infuriating, because
it is on the back of fake news put | 0:53:48 | 0:53:52 | |
out by the intended which has been
corrected, but on another level, | 0:53:52 | 0:53:55 | |
it's a wonderful refection of
Britain. That this issue of animal | 0:53:55 | 0:54:01 | |
welfare matters so much to similar
millions of people which is a good | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
thing. Even if the context is fake
news, it's a good thing, it makes me | 0:54:03 | 0:54:08 | |
half happy. At least you have left
are happy to tribute. That recruit | 0:54:08 | 0:54:15 | |
you have left us a happy
contributor. | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
Former Scottish Labour
leader Kezia Dugdale has | 0:54:18 | 0:54:20 | |
defended her decision to appear
on the TV Show I'm A Celebrity | 0:54:20 | 0:54:22 | |
Get Me Out of Here, saying
it is "an amazing opportunity | 0:54:22 | 0:54:25 | |
to talk to young people who watch
this programme about politics and, | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
in particular, Labour values". | 0:54:28 | 0:54:29 | |
Well, the jury's still out
on whether that's going to plan | 0:54:29 | 0:54:32 | |
following her first appearance
in the jungle last night. | 0:54:32 | 0:54:34 | |
KLAXON BLARES. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:35 | |
Come on! | 0:54:35 | 0:54:36 | |
Go on, guys! | 0:54:36 | 0:54:37 | |
Into Sickola Sturgeon,
the first box. | 0:54:37 | 0:54:39 | |
Go on, Kez! | 0:54:39 | 0:54:40 | |
Oh, both of them, though. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:42 | |
Fish guts in there, they're looking
for that first red star. | 0:54:42 | 0:54:45 | |
Come on, Kez! | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
Oh, it's freezing! | 0:54:48 | 0:54:49 | |
This is rank! | 0:54:49 | 0:54:50 | |
Where the hell is it? | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
Come on, Kez. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
Come on, girl. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:57 | |
What have they got in those boxes? | 0:54:57 | 0:54:59 | |
Raw meat and fish guts. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:01 | |
A red star, you say? | 0:55:01 | 0:55:02 | |
Red star. | 0:55:02 | 0:55:03 | |
Definitely red? | 0:55:03 | 0:55:04 | |
Definitely red. | 0:55:04 | 0:55:05 | |
Red star at night,
celebrity's delight. | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
Ian has his and it's in his bag,
he's into Margaret Scratcher. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
Margaret Scratcher! | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
Oh, she can't find it! | 0:55:13 | 0:55:18 | |
That was Kezia Dugdale,
and to discuss how she did we're | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
joined from Glasgow by the arts
and film critic and devoted I'm | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
a Celebrity fan Siobhan Synnott. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
That has put me off my lunch! Are
you a devoted fan of I'm A | 0:55:25 | 0:55:34 | |
Celebrity? Hat so how did she do?
I'm a big fan of her, but I'm only | 0:55:34 | 0:55:39 | |
slightly worried that if Kezia takes
off, we will see Alex Salmond on | 0:55:39 | 0:55:45 | |
Love Island. She has guts, that was
not a pleasant task. But she took on | 0:55:45 | 0:55:54 | |
the job of leader of the Scottish
Labour Party when nobody wanted it | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
and a tarantula would be tasty in
comparison. So why would you put | 0:55:57 | 0:56:01 | |
yourself through this, having been
to the travails of Labour leader in | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
Scotland? I think this is puzzling
everybody. I don't think Kezia | 0:56:05 | 0:56:10 | |
Dugdale is steely strategist, I
think this is an impulsive move. It | 0:56:10 | 0:56:14 | |
may do her no harm. There's been
talk about whether this is a | 0:56:14 | 0:56:18 | |
humiliation but I think it depends
very much on how you rise to the | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
occasion. She's been a good sport,
she went through the ten Downing | 0:56:21 | 0:56:28 | |
creep humiliations well, she emerged
with character when he was voted | 0:56:28 | 0:56:32 | |
into looking after the cleaning
duties, as she said, rather meekly, | 0:56:32 | 0:56:37 | |
she has gone from prospective Prime
Minister to domestic Danny duties | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
and she did it with a smile. She may
come out of it well. The key to | 0:56:41 | 0:56:47 | |
getting through these reality shows
if you are politician is not to be | 0:56:47 | 0:56:50 | |
pompous, not to be self enchanted,
and not to take yourself too | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
seriously. On that advice, do you
think, I love this idea that she | 0:56:53 | 0:56:58 | |
might be able to promote socialist
Labour values by being on this | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
programme, do you think that will
work? Sorry, I will, given a second! | 0:57:01 | 0:57:07 | |
I doubt very much that there will be
much theoretical discussion of the | 0:57:07 | 0:57:13 | |
Marxist models... It depends how
they spit up their duties! The | 0:57:13 | 0:57:17 | |
reality is, Kezia Dugdale worked
very hard, gave some of the best | 0:57:17 | 0:57:22 | |
years of her still young life to the
terrible, painful grind of leading | 0:57:22 | 0:57:27 | |
the Scottish Labour Party at a
difficult time and she's clearly see | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
this opportunity, thinks it might be
a bit of fun, change public | 0:57:31 | 0:57:33 | |
perceptions of her, she has probably
got the memory of Ed Balls changing | 0:57:33 | 0:57:43 | |
his perception, she didn't promote
neoclassical growth theory by doing | 0:57:43 | 0:57:47 | |
the salsa. May be he would have won
if he had done that! Do you think | 0:57:47 | 0:57:51 | |
she will last? I think she has a new
career beckoning. In what? | 0:57:51 | 0:57:59 | |
Unspeakable acts! Can she win? She
is 40 to one against, and 4-1 out | 0:57:59 | 0:58:06 | |
first, Amir Khan was a rank outsider
until he completed one of the tasks | 0:58:06 | 0:58:13 | |
and impress the audience and now she
hears one of the favourites, so come | 0:58:13 | 0:58:17 | |
on, Kezia, a few more fish guts and
you could be onto a winner. What | 0:58:17 | 0:58:23 | |
will happen next for Kezia is the
interesting thing. At the moment she | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
wants to come back and immediately
start voting again in Holyrood at | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
the end of her stint in the jungle,
but three weeks is a long time. She | 0:58:30 | 0:58:34 | |
may find that she's been offered
some appetising prospect. I'm | 0:58:34 | 0:58:41 | |
reminded of the World War I song,
how do you keep them down on the | 0:58:41 | 0:58:48 | |
farm if they have seen the Harvard?
I think you have enjoyed this far | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
too much! Thank you to all of my
guests. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:57 | |
I will go back on Monday, goodbye. | 0:58:57 | 0:59:02 |