11/12/2017 Daily Politics


11/12/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by former Conservative cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell and shadow equalities minister Dawn Butler to discuss the future direction of the Brexit negotiations.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May is due to address MPs

this afternoon and hail a new sense

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of optimism in the Brexit talks.

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She'll also say she's not pushing

for either a hard or a soft Brexit.

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But what will the UK's position

outside the EU eventually look like?

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Labour is considering moving large

parts of the Bank of England

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to Birmingham as part of plans

to create an economic policy hub

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in Britain's second city.

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We speak to the economist

pushing the idea.

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In the latest in our

'Westminster Village' series we look

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at the people who really wield power

behind the scenes in

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Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party.

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And as Conservative-supporting

Georgia Toffolo wins I'm

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a Celebrity, we ask if there's hope

yet for Tory attempts to win

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over the youth vote.

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All that in the next hour and,

speaking of winning over the youth

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vote, I'm joined by two

Parliamentary spring

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chickens: the Shadow Minister

for Women and Equalities,

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Dawn Butler, and the Conservative

MP and former Cabinet

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Minister Andrew Mitchell.

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Welcome to you both.

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Now, over the weekend,

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson

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was in Iran, where he met

with Iranian president

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Hassan Rouhani.

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A spokesman called the talks

"forthright" but "worthwhile".

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Mr Johnson was due to press

for the release of Iranian-British

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national Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe,

who is currently jailed in Iran.

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While no announcement

was made on her release,

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a fresh hearing which was expected

to extend her sentence

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was postponed, something

Ms Zaghari-Ratcliffe said brought

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"some light at the end

of the tunnel".

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Andrew Mitchell, what chance do you

think there is that Nazanin

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Zaghari-Ratcliffe will be released

soon?

I fervently hope she will be,

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that she will be home in time for

Christmas. I am one of those who has

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campaigned for her release, I think

on humanitarian grounds alone. She

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is not very well, hasn't seen her

daughter for so long, and she should

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be reunited with her family. The

family have humanitarian concerns

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will trump politics and she will be

released.

Has the criticism of Boris

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Johnson been fair?

I don't think it

is helpful to go back over that.

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Years at the core this.

He has gone

to terror on to make it clear that

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Britain wants to see her released as

soon as possible and deserves credit

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for that.

In terms of being across

the detail, when you know how

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sensitively a country like Iran

needs to be handled in these sorts

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of cases, do you think he was across

the brief?

It's clear that he

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misspoke in that committee, and it

was a great pity that that happened.

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You know, these things happen in

politics. The critical thing is to

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focus on the humanitarian dimension

of this and that this poor lady is

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released as soon as possible.

Dawn

Butler, the court has welcomed the

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talks that have gone on between

President Rabbani and Boris Johnson.

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Do you support it?

-- President

Rohani. I appreciate that he is

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trying to make up for it. I hope

that Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is

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released before Christmas and

reunited with her husband and

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daughters. I think it is extremely

important, and I think on

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humanitarian grounds, but it is an

issue that at some point we have to

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tackle sensitive issues, take a

sensitive approach and ministers to

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handle those.

In a way, it has

highlighted this case, and Boris

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Johnson as Foreign Secretary has

been to some extent forced to go out

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there. Do you think in the end that

will have helped the high -- will

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have helped her?

If the outcome is

that she is released and back home,

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then I will welcome that.

How much

does this visit show that Iran has

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changed, in your mind, Andrew

Mitchell?

I think we urgently need

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to improve relations between Britain

and Iran, and we have the

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opportunity because we are not in

the same place as President Trump

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over the nuclear deal. We are strong

supporters of it. And we're not in

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support of the Americans over the

moving of the embassy to Jerusalem.

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There is an interest between Iran

and Britain that we need to build

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on. Iran is an important player in

the Middle East, where Britain has

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enormously important interests, and

we need to bring Iran into the

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committee of nations.

What has

happened in the last week has been

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worrying, and Trump's approach has

been excruciatingly painful in terms

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of peace negotiations and a two

state solution. On the whole, I

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agree.

In terms of the relationship

between Britain and Iran, how much

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more can be done from our position?

On the specific case of the release?

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No, broadly on improving oration --

relations with Iran?

I am hoping

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there will be a delegation from

Britain to Iran early next year.

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There is nothing in Britain's

interest for maintaining what in the

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past has been a big blockage with

Iran. We need to get things moving.

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We are trading, and we need to do

that more. We need a better

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understanding. I think contact

between the two countries should now

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be intensified, and it is very

important.

Lets leave it there.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Over the weekend Theresa May

decorated a Christmas tree

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in her church in her constituency.

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So, the question for today

is, what did she put

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on the top of the tree?

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Was it a) A gold star,

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b) An angel,

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c) A silver shoe,

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or d) A bauble

with Jean-Claude Juncker's

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face on it?

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At the end of the show Andrew

and Dawn will give us

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the correct answer.

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The Prime Minister will address

the House of Commons later this

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afternoon and hail a new "sense

of optimism" in the Brexit talks.

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It follows that deal on Friday

which allows negotiations to move

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forward to discuss the future

relationship between

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Britain and the EU.

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But the nature of that future

relationship is likely to become

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the focus of fierce domestic debate

in the coming weeks and months.

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The Cabinet will begin

its discussions later this month.

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And further across the political

spectrum, there is a wide range

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of opinion:

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David Davis said yesterday

the UK Government wants

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to secure a 'Canada plus plus plus'

free trade deal after the UK

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leaves the EU.

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Canada's deal with the EU

eliminates 98% of the tariffs

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between the EU and Canada,

without the country saying

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for access to the Single Market.

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But unlike the Canada deal,

Davis wants financial services,

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between the EU and Canada,

--without the country paying

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But unlike the Canada deal,

Davis wants financial services,

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which account for a substantial part

of Britain's economic output, to be

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included in the tariff-free area.

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Some Brexiteers have expressed

concerns that the 'full alignment'

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outlined in Friday's agreement

will undermine the UK's ability

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to strike free trade deals

with third party countries.

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Labour's Brexit spokesman,

Keir Starmer, says the UK should

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"stay aligned" to the EU

after Brexit, and could negotiate

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payments to access the single

market, as Norway does now.

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Asked if that would include allowing

free movement of people,

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Labour have indicated

they would support an "easy"

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movement of people.

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The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily

Thornberry raised the possibility

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yesterday that the UK could stay

in a form of customs union

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to allow trade to continue

between the EU and UK.

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But the SNP have called on Labour

to "get behind" the SNP

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in committing to stay in the single

market and customs union.

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Chris Mason joins me now. Sufficient

progress was made on Friday but

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there is a lot to get through before

it is rubber-stamped this Friday.

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Yeah, their race. This morning, the

first thing was a cabinet meeting.

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There is only one more after today

before the end of the year, and

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there is that big discussion to come

about the end state, in terms of

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what the Cabinet wants the flavour

Brexit to be once we have left at

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the end of March of the year after

next. This afternoon, that

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appointment the Prime Minister has

in front of that though it meant the

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House of Commons. She was hoping to

do it last week before that aborted

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lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker. Then

the dash back to Brussels in the

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early hours of Friday morning. A

pretty triumphant tone, I suspect,

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from the Prime Minister this

afternoon, and from some around her,

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because it could have been very

different. We could have been

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talking about how the whole thing

had unravelled and how it was a

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nightmare for the Prime Minister,

and all the talk of what that might

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mean for the future, or there could

be days to go until a summit and a

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deal still hadn't been done.

Instead, the Prime Minister will say

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it is not about hard or soft Brexit.

Our old friend, nothing is agreed

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until everything is agreed, but, she

says, a new sense of optimism about

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talks in the New Year as talk about

the future relationship becomes the

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focus in 2018.

How is she going to

keep everybody on board when

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everybody has a different view and

opinion of what that end state in

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terms of the future trade

relationship should actually look

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like? And tell us about the EU

withdrawal bill, which is back in

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the Commons.

That is the challenge

of keeping everyone on board. The

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flip side is, if you are in Downing

Street, you can marvel at them

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managing to come up with a document

that Brussels, Dublin, Belfast and

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the various wings of the

Conservative Party were willing to

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sign off on. Once we start getting

into that discussion about the

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future relationship, and ultimately

boils down to how close or otherwise

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the UK in the future will be to the

EU on the other side of Brexit, then

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there will be a range of views and

arguments, no doubt. As far as the

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withdrawal bill is concerned, that

continues. It is trundling through

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the House of Commons. Huge amounts

of detail to go through in terms of

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all that. The Government will hope

that the prospect of any defeat

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there has been limited by something

that falls into the category, I was

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told last week by one MP, being

important but boring. This is the

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whole business of the procedure

committee and the proposed sifting

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committee. Bear with me! The idea is

that there can be more scrutiny of

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statutory instruments, some of the

tools being used to push through a

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heck of a lot of detail in that

bill.

I'm glad you are a crush --

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across it all.

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I'm joined now by the Westminster

leader of the SNP, Ian Blackford,

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and from central lobby

by the Conservative

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MP Bernard Jenkin -

who was on the board of the official

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Leave campaign group, Vote Leave.

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Dawn Butler and Andrew Mitchell

are also still with me.

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Ian Blackford, first of all, you

have made a pitch to Labour to join

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you in committing the UK to

remaining in the customs union and

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single market - why?

It is about

protecting jobs and investment in

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the UK. If we are out with those, it

will cost hundreds of thousands of

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jobs throughout the UK.

Why have you

made this pitch to Labour now?

There

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is a growing concern as to where we

may end up in phase two. I am asking

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Labour and other opposition parties

and Conservative MPs to join with

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us. Nobody voted to be poorer, and

what I would say to dawn and others

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is that we need to make sure we

protect the interests of our

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constituencies. That is why

remaining in is so important. Mike

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do you accept that overture from the

SNP?

I think position the Labour

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Party has taken from the very

beginning is right, and has been

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proven to be right.

What is it?

The

transitional arrangement and deal,

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and having a bespoke deal when it

comes to the customs union. I think

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sometimes we forget, because it was

well over a year ago, that Labour's

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position at the very beginning has

been proven to be right.

My question

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is, do you accept the SNP invitation

to stay in the customs union and the

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single market and campaign with an?

I understand what Ian is saying, but

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the thing is, that would mean that

we would be ignoring the referendum,

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and the Labour Party has no

intention of ignoring the

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referendum. We have said that we

need a transitional arrangement and

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a way to maintain the benefits of

the customs union and single market.

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But what's the difference between

your position and the SNP's? As you

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said, Kia Starmer, he said we want

to retain the same benefits as if we

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were in the single market and

customs union. Essentially, what is

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the difference?

Basically how we

talk about it, in essence. We might

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not be able to say we are still in,

but if we maintain the benefits,

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then, you know...

You will call it

something different but essentially

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it's the same?

It is that once you

leave, you can no longer be a member

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of the single market as it is.

Do

you see any difference between your

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position is?

There is, and we have

to be clear about the threat to jobs

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and prosperity. The point is, what

the Tories have talked about before

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is coming out of the single market

and customs union. Labour have

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accepted that we need a transition

deal. The harsh reality is, through

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the transition deal, we will be in

the single market and customs union.

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The cliff edge remains, but I am

trying to remove the threat to jobs

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in our constituencies up and down

the country. Nobody has voted to be

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poorer.

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You just said the government should

expect to remain in the customs

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union and Single Market during the

implementation period. Bernard

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Jenkin, do you agree with that and

is that your understanding?

I am

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listening with amazement because the

Labour Party stood on a platform at

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the last election that they

respected the referendum result

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which meant leaving the European

Union, leaving the customs union and

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Single Market, and they had some

words in the manifesto about trying

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to have the benefits of being in the

Single Market and Customs union

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without actually being in it.

What

will happen in the implementation

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period as far as the government is

concerned?

Now we're hearing the

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Labour Party has moved a position

that we don't leave the European

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Union and the fact Kier Starmer

committed the Labour Party to a

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second referendum can only mean one

thing, they are open to change the

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result, hoping to reverse the

referendum decision, so the

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Conservative Party now is the only

party apart from the DUP, these two

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parties in parliament, that actually

want to honour the referendum result

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and deliver the freedom to control

our own law decide on our own

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borders and stop contributing money

to the European Union.

Dawn Butler,

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are you committed, or can you rule

out that Labour would ever support

0:16:360:16:39

the idea of a second referendum?

Can

I just say that the problem with

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what was just said is that David

Davis admitted he doesn't have to be

0:16:430:16:46

very bright to do his job and beat

Brexit Secretary and I think that is

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fundamentally what the problem is.

Did he?

He did and that is

0:16:510:16:55

fundamentally the problem because

you have to be across the detail and

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that's the problem with the

negotiation.

I am asking a question

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about the second referendum, is

Labour going to support a second

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referendum?

It is not something we

are considering at the moment.

But

0:17:080:17:11

you might?

As Keir Starmer said

nothing is off the table and it's a

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sensible approach to negotiations

and this is the problem we have had

0:17:160:17:20

with this government, terms of

having red lines, and after a year

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and a half having to then row back

because they hadn't considered the

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detail. That's the problem.

Bernard

Jenkin, how do you envisage

0:17:270:17:33

Britain's future relationship beyond

Brexit in terms of trade?

Well, the

0:17:330:17:38

idea that the Cabinet has never

discussed any of this, the position

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was set out in the manifesto that we

are leaving the EU, leaving the

0:17:410:17:46

customs union and the Single Market

and we are going to be in a position

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to do meaningful trade deals with

non-EU countries and that means we

0:17:490:17:54

need to have regulatory autonomy.

Most trade deals are not about

0:17:540:18:00

negotiating about tariffs, is the

icing on the cake to get rid of the

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tariffs. Most trade deals are about

dismantling the nontariff barriers.

0:18:040:18:08

So you do want to see regulate your

autonomy?

Absolutely.

How worried

0:18:080:18:14

are you about the idea that if a

deal is and then they will be full

0:18:140:18:17

alignment of the UK being tied

closely to the EU standards and

0:18:170:18:20

customs in order to maintain that

open border with Ireland?

We have

0:18:200:18:25

clearly made a commitment to Ireland

and to the EU that we want

0:18:250:18:31

alignment. But every trade deal

starts out with discussion about,

0:18:310:18:38

you got to align with us and we have

got to align with you post stop the

0:18:380:18:42

advantage of this discussion about

our trade deal with the EU is we

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already have complete alignment. The

alignment in Northern Ireland is

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confined purely to the matters that

pertain to the North-South

0:18:500:18:56

co-operation in support of the

agreement. In any case, this text

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will form part of a much bigger text

of the withdrawal agreement and it

0:19:000:19:05

is the withdrawal agreement as a

whole that will have legally binding

0:19:050:19:07

effect. This text on its own has no

legal binding effect.

This is a

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statement of intent as David Davis

said, which upset the Irish

0:19:120:19:16

government?

The Irish hosted the

Jolly Roger and had to pull it down

0:19:160:19:21

again.

Are you saying this agreement

is not what the paper it is written

0:19:210:19:26

on?

I did not say that.

You said it

is not binding in any way.

It is an

0:19:260:19:31

agreement for the movement to the

main stage of negotiations which is

0:19:310:19:35

long overdue and the fact the EU

almost begs Theresa May to make an

0:19:350:19:39

agreement shows what a strong

position in the United Kingdom is in

0:19:390:19:42

and that we should stick to our

guns. We should not finish up where

0:19:420:19:46

Labour and the Liberal Democrats and

SNP now want this country to be

0:19:460:19:50

outside the European Union, unable

to influence the decisions made,

0:19:500:19:54

unable to influence the court, but

subject to the court and all the

0:19:540:19:58

rules and all the costs, and unable

to do trade deals with the other

0:19:580:20:02

countries outside the EU. That's the

worst of all possible worlds.

Why is

0:20:020:20:07

it that Richard Tice from leave

means leave says this is a total

0:20:070:20:12

capitulation this deal, that the UK

is paying far more that they are not

0:20:120:20:16

legally bound to do in order to move

on to Phase 2, that they have signed

0:20:160:20:20

up to an arrangement where the UK

could be tied for a generation to

0:20:200:20:28

the EU in terms of customs and in

terms of standards. There will not

0:20:280:20:31

be the diversions you have talked

about, -- divergences. The European

0:20:310:20:36

Court of Justice will have

jurisdiction over the rights of EU

0:20:360:20:39

citizens during the implementation

period and possibly beyond. Do you

0:20:390:20:42

regard that as a success?

That is

not the Government's position,

0:20:420:20:46

perhaps he's listening too much to

the European Union, the Remainers

0:20:460:20:50

and Remainers and SNP and Labour

Party.

I thought you supported Leave

0:20:500:20:55

Means Leave.

I am a supporter of

Leave Means Leave but I don't agree

0:20:550:20:58

with Richard on this point.

Right,

why not?

If I could get a word in

0:20:580:21:03

edgeways, please.

Go on, finish.

The

point is that this is merely moving

0:21:030:21:09

us to the next phase of negotiations

and we are moving towards the trade

0:21:090:21:13

negotiations with the EU. Both sides

are setting out their positions on

0:21:130:21:18

each side. There will have to be

compromise, as there was comprised

0:21:180:21:22

between Canada and the EU. To finish

up the Canada plus plus plus and

0:21:220:21:26

able to do trade deals with the

United States, or even be able to

0:21:260:21:32

participate in the Trans-Pacific

Partnership which has been abandoned

0:21:320:21:33

by the United States, which would

welcome British participation. We

0:21:330:21:38

have huge opportunities and must not

throw these opportunities away by

0:21:380:21:42

still being a prisoner of the EU.

Do

you think Britain is going to be a

0:21:420:21:46

prisoner of the EU in the way

Bernard Jenkin has outlined? Would

0:21:460:21:50

you like to see the UK closely

aligned to the Single Market and

0:21:500:21:56

customs union?

Let's be clear where

we are. First of all we have reached

0:21:560:22:01

first base successfully, we had a

difficult week last week but it

0:22:010:22:04

ended with triumph for the Prime

Minister and we can now advance

0:22:040:22:06

towards the second phase. My dispute

with all my colleagues who have

0:22:060:22:11

spoken on this programme so far is

that I think they are slightly

0:22:110:22:14

jumping the gun. The key is to get

into the negotiations, Canada plus

0:22:140:22:19

plus plus sounds to me like a very

good starting point for the British

0:22:190:22:23

negotiations. And at the end of the

day, of course we are going to have

0:22:230:22:26

to have a transition period,

otherwise...

Within the Single

0:22:260:22:30

Market and customs union?

A

transition period. We have to have

0:22:300:22:34

it otherwise businesses will not be

to plan and make the necessary

0:22:340:22:40

changes required. The key thing to

me is to let the negotiator who is

0:22:400:22:43

doing an extremely good job get on

with negotiating the best position

0:22:430:22:46

for Britain.

Is that David Davis?

Dawn Butler said he is not very

0:22:460:22:48

bright.

I would beg to differ.

It is

his own words.

He has a brain like a

0:22:480:22:55

steel trap, he is extremely bright,

let the negotiator get on with

0:22:550:22:58

negotiating the best deal for

Britain. That is not either a hard

0:22:580:23:02

or a soft Brexit, it's the best deal

for Britain, the whole of Britain,

0:23:020:23:06

that's what I want to see us advance

towards.

Do you see movement to

0:23:060:23:11

Phase 2 is a statement of intent and

not binding in any way?

The

0:23:110:23:14

principle outlined is binding

absolutely.

You disagree with

0:23:140:23:18

Bernard Jenkin that it's all up for

grabs?

Bernard is quite rightly

0:23:180:23:26

giving a technical appreciation but

what I'm saying is that when the

0:23:260:23:28

British government put up that point

which secured agreement across the

0:23:280:23:30

piece, that principle is certainly

binding.

Do you see the UK's future

0:23:300:23:35

relationship as one that will be

closely mirroring the European Union

0:23:350:23:39

in terms of rules and regulations?

I

see the primacy and absolute

0:23:390:23:43

importance of a free-trade deal as

overruling all of that. That by

0:23:430:23:48

definition means alignment to some

extent. At a free-trade deal is an

0:23:480:23:52

sooty essential for both of us.

What

in your mind, Dawn Butler, does easy

0:23:520:23:56

movement of people mean?

It means

that some people say you have signed

0:23:560:24:01

up to no movement, we're not signing

up to no movement, there has to be

0:24:010:24:04

movement.

The end to freedom of

movement is what the Labour

0:24:040:24:08

manifesto said. So what does Keir

Starmer mean when he says easy

0:24:080:24:11

movement?

Well, that is something

that he will then develop in terms

0:24:110:24:16

of detail.

So he hasn't thought

through what this is?

The question

0:24:160:24:21

he was answering was, are we saying

there was no movement? Keir Starmer

0:24:210:24:26

said there done that it's impossible

to say there is no movement because

0:24:260:24:29

we need movement of people in order

for our economy, we will need

0:24:290:24:33

movement of people but it won't look

exactly as it looks now. So, there

0:24:330:24:39

would be more stringent regimes

around it in terms of how people are

0:24:390:24:43

monitored in a doubt.

What about the

numbers, for example?

We do not talk

0:24:430:24:48

about caps and numbers. -- in and

out. To be honest it's a part of the

0:24:480:24:58

negotiation details if we were

around the negotiating table that we

0:24:580:25:01

could come back with more detail on.

That's the kind of question you

0:25:010:25:04

should be asking David Davis and the

government in terms of what their

0:25:040:25:07

plans are.

Do you see in the coming

months, Ian Blackford, that Labour

0:25:070:25:14

will move its position to saying we

should remain in this angle market

0:25:140:25:18

and customs union, and then the two

of you can forge a closer

0:25:180:25:20

relationship on Brexit?

Yes, that

has got to happen because it has to

0:25:200:25:24

be about protecting the interests of

our constituents.

Are you talking to

0:25:240:25:28

Labour at the moment?

I wrote to

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday and I'm

0:25:280:25:31

waiting for a reply and I said we

should meet. The fundamentals of

0:25:310:25:35

this is if we are in a situation

that everybody accepts there is

0:25:350:25:38

going to be alignment with the rules

of the EU, the situation we are in

0:25:380:25:42

today is they will be no border

between Northern Ireland and the

0:25:420:25:45

Republic. We know on the basis of

the intervention of the DUP there

0:25:450:25:48

will be no border between the island

of Ireland and the rest of the

0:25:480:25:52

United Kingdom. The only way you can

square this is by staying in this on

0:25:520:25:56

the market and customs union.

Die-hard Brexiteers have taken the

0:25:560:25:59

country up a blind alley and it

hasn't worked. They have to accept

0:25:590:26:04

that staying in the Single Market

and customs union is the only

0:26:040:26:07

logical way of resolving this.

Bernard Jenkin, final word. Will you

0:26:070:26:12

and do you store think Britain

should pay for its obligations that

0:26:120:26:15

it said it should honour even if you

do get the trade deal you like?

We

0:26:150:26:19

have no obligations. We would like

to offer the EU some money as a

0:26:190:26:22

goodwill gesture for leaving the

European Union midway during a

0:26:220:26:26

budget period and that is reasonable

enough. Two very quick points. There

0:26:260:26:30

was never going to be a hard border

between Northern Ireland and the

0:26:300:26:35

Republic.

That's not what the Irish

government thought.

If they wanted

0:26:350:26:38

to have one that would be up to them

but we would never have one. If they

0:26:380:26:42

wanted to put infrastructure there

that would be up to them and

0:26:420:26:44

actually it would never happen. It

was all a bluff and a nonsense. You

0:26:440:26:48

don't need to police the border at

the border in order to police the

0:26:480:26:52

border with technology these days.

The second thing about alignment.

0:26:520:26:56

Alignment is a yes no question.

Andrew is completely right. In any

0:26:560:27:00

free-trade deal there are degrees of

alignment. The point is under the

0:27:000:27:05

new arrangements when we leave the

EU, we will control what we choose

0:27:050:27:09

to align with the EU instead of

being dictated on what our

0:27:090:27:13

regulatory regime should be.

You say

that but at the moment it doesn't

0:27:130:27:16

sound like that.

That is your

opinion.

That's the opinion

0:27:160:27:19

expressed by many people, the term

was used.

You are obviously on their

0:27:190:27:25

side.

Whose side?

You said you agree

with them.

I said the view was

0:27:250:27:33

expressed. Bernard Jenkin, thank

you.

0:27:330:27:38

I should also say thank you to you,

Ian Blackford.

0:27:380:27:42

Now, Should the Bank of England be

moved from London to Birmingham?

0:27:420:27:45

The Shadow Chancellor John

McDonnell, seen here protesting

0:27:450:27:47

outside the Bank in London

earlier this year, has today

0:27:470:27:50

launched a report into what Labour

are calling Financing Investment.

0:27:500:27:52

The report recommends,

among other things,

0:27:520:27:53

that the the Old Lady

of Threadneedle Street,

0:27:530:27:55

as it's known, should

be moved from the City

0:27:550:27:58

to England's second city.

0:27:580:27:58

It claims the move would spread

investment across the country.

0:27:580:28:01

Mr McDonnell said the report drums

home the message that our financial

0:28:010:28:04

system isn't delivering enough

investment across

0:28:040:28:05

the whole country.

0:28:050:28:06

We're joined now by Graham Turner

from GFC Economics who has

0:28:060:28:09

authored today's report.

0:28:090:28:14

Welcome to the programme. Would this

be anything more than a symbolic

0:28:140:28:16

move? Moving functions to

Birmingham?

I do not see it as

0:28:160:28:23

tokenism, not a nod to devolution,

it's a very necessary move to

0:28:230:28:26

counter the big problems we have in

this country around economic policy,

0:28:260:28:30

huge regional imbalances, financial

system geared far too much towards

0:28:300:28:35

speculative lending, manufacturing

lending has gone down dramatically

0:28:350:28:38

in recent years and we have got to

have a complete rethink about how

0:28:380:28:42

economic policy is structured in

this country.

That maybe so but how

0:28:420:28:45

does moving certain functions at the

Bank of England deliver that?

We

0:28:450:28:49

have said clearly it's not just

about moving that, it's about the

0:28:490:28:56

mandate, the two side by side.

What

with the mandate the?

We have not

0:28:560:28:59

said what the mandate would be, this

report is over 200 pages long and

0:28:590:29:03

this will be in our next report. On

the question of real -- relocation,

0:29:030:29:13

we are looking at global hubs,

London is one of them and it has a

0:29:130:29:17

detrimental impact on other cities

in the country. We can see it in the

0:29:170:29:21

West and other countries. That's

because technology is gravitating

0:29:210:29:23

towards finance. You have to move

some functions of finance in order

0:29:230:29:28

for technology to be disbursed more

evenly.

How would that deliver

0:29:280:29:31

regional equality in terms of

investment?

We need faster growing

0:29:310:29:35

hubs in sectors that pay better --

jobs. It's not just fine as that

0:29:350:29:40

pays welcome information,

communication, professional and

0:29:400:29:41

scientific technology services. If

you move the control of finance away

0:29:410:29:46

from the City of London you will not

damage the City of London's outward

0:29:460:29:51

look to the rest of the world. I

think it would strengthen it. You

0:29:510:29:55

would say to the Bank of England,

you've got to look at rebalancing

0:29:550:29:58

this country because it is damaging

the whole of this country that we

0:29:580:30:00

have one city where it is or

becoming too expensive to do

0:30:000:30:03

business.

In terms of relocation,

what specific functions are you

0:30:030:30:09

talking about?

We have not said the

specific functions, and again we

0:30:090:30:12

hope this could be in the follow-up

report. What we have said this

0:30:120:30:15

morning is that one has got to

imagine we would be looking in the

0:30:150:30:18

realm of some domestic banking

functions. Can I just say that when

0:30:180:30:22

we look at the Monetary Policy

Committee, an important part of the

0:30:220:30:26

Bank of England, ask yourself the

question, how many of these fine

0:30:260:30:29

individuals who have been on the MPC

in the last few years have come from

0:30:290:30:32

institutions outside of the Golden

Triangle? Nobody from Scotland,

0:30:320:30:36

Wales, I'm talking of the

institution, nobody from Northern

0:30:360:30:39

Ireland, so you get a bias towards

London.

Do you agree, this is part

0:30:390:30:43

of the world that isn't so far from

you, there was a relocation?

I

0:30:430:30:48

represent the town of royal Sutton

Coldfield up against the walls of

0:30:480:30:51

Birmingham and I'm always pleased to

see the investment coming to

0:30:510:30:53

Birmingham. I thought the Bank of

England did have a specific office

0:30:530:30:56

in Birmingham. It certainly did a

few years ago.

But would you support

0:30:560:31:01

more functions being moved on the

basis of what Graham is saying, that

0:31:010:31:05

it would somehow tilt the

institution bias away from London?

0:31:050:31:11

He hasn't put any flesh on the bones

of what this would mean, but in

0:31:110:31:15

terms of regional policy, I think

what he says goes with the grain of

0:31:150:31:19

a lot of what the Government is

doing. We now have for the first

0:31:190:31:23

time a really effective and very

strong Mayor in the West Midlands,

0:31:230:31:28

Andy Street.

A conservative.

A

Mayor, it is a new structure. He is

0:31:280:31:33

galvanising the region's economic

future. In terms of getting

0:31:330:31:40

policy-making out of London, that is

something the Government is doing,

0:31:400:31:43

and it seems to me that this isn't a

million miles away.

It is quite

0:31:430:31:50

different. I am not against

devolution, but control of economic

0:31:500:31:56

policy, having lending and interest

rate decisions based around the

0:31:560:32:00

needs of the whole country, that's

what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure

0:32:000:32:04

that being in Birmingham does that.

It does make a difference, and that

0:32:040:32:12

is why London does well. If you put

an institution in one place

0:32:120:32:17

physically,... Clusters become self

feeding, which is what all the

0:32:170:32:23

research says. We need to break that

tendency towards ever more

0:32:230:32:27

concentration of economic power in

cities.

In the growth of the Nando's

0:32:270:32:33

services in Britain's second city,

and HSBC have their UK headquarters

0:32:330:32:39

in Birmingham, so in terms of a

power shift, moving jobs and

0:32:390:32:44

services throughout the country,

burning is already ahead on that.

On

0:32:440:32:48

decisions like interest rates, are

you saying that relocating functions

0:32:480:32:54

to Birmingham might influence or

change the way the Bank of England

0:32:540:32:57

makes decisions?

We are saying it

needs to change the way it looks at

0:32:570:33:01

decisions around the whole economy.

Which decisions would be different

0:33:010:33:05

if they were in Birmingham?

We have

an incredible focus on speculative

0:33:050:33:11

lending. Financial stability ports

are all about capitalising the bank.

0:33:110:33:16

There is very little about the fact

that we run this huge deficit in

0:33:160:33:20

manufacturing, what it means in

terms of wages, consumer credit, so

0:33:200:33:26

we need a wider discussion about

financial stability. It is not just

0:33:260:33:31

about the banks having enough

capital. The Bank of England is

0:33:310:33:35

still fighting the battle of ten

years ago. They didn't see what was

0:33:350:33:39

coming with the financial crisis, so

it is busy trying to repair the

0:33:390:33:43

mistakes of ten years ago. We are

seeing an impact of technology on

0:33:430:33:53

wages, on automation. We need to

support manufacturing and high-value

0:33:530:33:57

services.

Argue worried about

automation?

No, but I am worried

0:33:570:34:01

about whether UK is. There are

countries that are ahead of us,

0:34:010:34:06

including the US. We are falling

well behind.

Does Labour accept this

0:34:060:34:12

recommendation from Graham Turner?

In the round, yes. It means

0:34:120:34:16

investing in a new generation, in

productive industries. I completely

0:34:160:34:22

understand it. You are building an

environment where more people want

0:34:220:34:27

to feed into it, so more people will

go to university or learn the

0:34:270:34:33

financial industry. When you move

something somewhere else, you will

0:34:330:34:37

build a movement around that so I

completely understand that.

Has the

0:34:370:34:45

Northern Power has delivered what

the Government set out?

We said in

0:34:450:34:50

our report that just building train

lines, great, but the danger is that

0:34:500:34:56

you just create long-distance

commuters. That does not create

0:34:560:35:00

clusters. We want knowledge

capitals.

I think that is how we

0:35:000:35:06

will improve our standing in the

rest of the world.

Have you been

0:35:060:35:10

disappointed with the lack of proper

funding behind the Northern

0:35:100:35:13

Powerhouse?

No, I think the Northern

Powerhouse, which was dreamt up by

0:35:130:35:21

the Coalition Government, has made a

big contribution. We're making good

0:35:210:35:24

progress in the Midlands in the way

that I described, through having

0:35:240:35:28

this outstandingly good Mayor.

Think

you for joining us.

0:35:280:35:33

Now, Christmas might be approaching,

but that doesn't mean MPs

0:35:330:35:35

are taking their foot off

the gas just yet.

0:35:350:35:37

And it's another busy week

in Westminster and beyond.

0:35:370:35:39

Tomorrow, the Prime Minister will be

in Paris attending climate change

0:35:390:35:42

talks with around 50 world leaders.

0:35:420:35:43

The One Plant Summit aims to boost

political and economic support

0:35:430:35:46

for meeting the goals set out

in the Paris agreement

0:35:460:35:48

two years ago.

0:35:480:35:50

Meanwhile, MPs will once

again be focussing

0:35:500:35:52

on the European Union Withdrawal

Bill.

0:35:520:35:53

MPs will debate an amendment tabled

by former Attorney General Dominic

0:35:530:35:56

Grieve which says the promise

of a "meaningful vote"

0:35:560:35:58

for Parliament on any Brexit deal

should be enshrined in law.

0:35:580:36:05

On Wednesday, Theresa May

and Jeremy Corbyn will face each

0:36:050:36:07

other in the House of Commons

at Prime Minister's Questions and )

0:36:070:36:11

On Thursday it's the start of the EU

leaders' Summit which will decide

0:36:110:36:15

whether sufficient progress has been

made in the negotiations

0:36:150:36:17

has been achieved.

0:36:170:36:20

Theresa May will be informed

whether or not trade

0:36:200:36:22

and transition talks can begin.

0:36:220:36:26

For more on this, I'm joined

by the Telegraph's Kate McCann

0:36:260:36:28

and Politico's Jack Blanchard.

0:36:280:36:35

Welcome to both of you. Kate McCann,

first, it is a busy week, and there

0:36:350:36:39

has been some expectation that it

will be difficult to keep everyone

0:36:390:36:42

on board before the deal is

rubber-stamped on Friday. Where do

0:36:420:36:47

you think the areas of concern would

be for the Government?

I think we

0:36:470:36:51

will see where those areas of

concern are over the course of

0:36:510:36:55

today, because Theresa May is

chairing her cabinet meeting this

0:36:550:36:58

morning. There have been

conversations over the weekend about

0:36:580:37:03

concern, particularly David Davies

yesterday about the Northern Ireland

0:37:030:37:08

aspect of the agreement made last

week, and then we will see her face

0:37:080:37:11

MPs in the House of Commons later. I

would be surprised if there weren't

0:37:110:37:15

some interventions from her own

backbenchers on what the deal struck

0:37:150:37:20

with the EU means, on Northern

Ireland and other issues. And then

0:37:200:37:23

we will come to the trade talks.

That is what the Government is

0:37:230:37:27

hoping for. And that will open a new

can of worms about exactly what type

0:37:270:37:30

of trade deal the EU wants -- the UK

wants with the EU, and trade deals

0:37:300:37:40

around the world.

There has been

talk of not wanting to stay closely

0:37:400:37:47

tied to the EU but keeping

regulatory alignment - what do you

0:37:470:37:51

make about?

It sounds incredibly

boring, but it's actually really

0:37:510:37:56

important, this stuff.

For that!

We

have these terms that we are getting

0:37:560:38:02

to grips with. It is about what sort

of country Britain is going to be in

0:38:020:38:06

the future, how much it is aligned

with rules and regulations from

0:38:060:38:10

Europe and how much we go our own

way. It is a huge debate raging in

0:38:100:38:14

Government, and it has been for a

few weeks. It is about to explode

0:38:140:38:17

onto the surface in the Cabinet,

which is very divided on this. It is

0:38:170:38:22

long-term future of the nation

stuff, so people like Bernard Jenkin

0:38:220:38:26

are very much trying to push Theresa

May in a certain direction where

0:38:260:38:31

Britain will get a clean break go

off into the world and have its own

0:38:310:38:35

rules and leg relations about all of

things. -- rules and regulations. It

0:38:350:38:42

is a hugely important issue, but no

one has really started to debate or

0:38:420:38:46

they are only just starting now, and

I think they will hear a lot about

0:38:460:38:51

these long boring terms about

regulatory alignment over the next

0:38:510:38:54

few months. We had better get used

them. In terms of the statement of

0:38:540:38:59

intent, David Davies himself seemed

to cast doubt on how binding the

0:38:590:39:03

agreement actually was, this idea

that nothing is agreed until

0:39:030:39:07

everything is agreed. Does that make

it more difficult to keep everyone

0:39:070:39:11

together until Friday?

I think we

will see the Prime Minister that

0:39:110:39:14

again today, and there is a reason

for that. It is exactly as you say,

0:39:140:39:20

that they want to be able to give

themselves enough leeway because

0:39:200:39:23

they know the divisions on these

issues, as Jack just said, are so

0:39:230:39:27

huge that it is impossible to tie

them down. What we saw with the DUP

0:39:270:39:32

last week I think they will see

again. The issue was pushed and

0:39:320:39:35

pushed until the last minute, when

people really kicked off about it,

0:39:350:39:39

but in quite a short space of time,

because there is a deadline for

0:39:390:39:42

agreement, it is not then the Prime

Minister's interest to open it up

0:39:420:39:49

and talk about it early, because

that exposes these huge chasms of

0:39:490:39:53

opinion earlier. It will be

difficult to bridge those. You will

0:39:530:40:00

see Theresa May try to keep it as

open as she can, and that is what

0:40:000:40:03

David Davies was doing over the

weekend, though it looks like he

0:40:030:40:06

went too far, because as soon as you

say it is really open, the Irish

0:40:060:40:10

Government says, that is not what we

want to hear and is problematic.

0:40:100:40:14

They are trying a balancing act of

keeping everyone in the boat without

0:40:140:40:18

too tipping -- tipping too far one

way because they will have to pull

0:40:180:40:22

people back over the site.

David

Davis this morning very much

0:40:220:40:28

backtracking on how far he went on

the Andrew Marr Show yesterday. This

0:40:280:40:35

still hasn't been signed off. The

European Commission have agreed it

0:40:350:40:39

but Theresa May has this summit on

Thursday when the other 27 countries

0:40:390:40:43

have to sign it. For her to say that

it is not worth the paper it is

0:40:430:40:49

written on is not really a smart

tactic.

Damian Green and his future

0:40:490:40:53

- why haven't we heard anything more

about that since the investigation

0:40:530:40:58

has been ongoing and the report has

been added to Theresa May?

Is when

0:40:580:41:03

we get towards Christmas, the

question will get bigger. As you

0:41:030:41:11

say, we know she has been given an

update on the progress, and we know

0:41:110:41:14

that most people who were involved

in the investigation have so far

0:41:140:41:20

given their evidence, and therefore,

we should see a conclusion of that

0:41:200:41:23

investigation soon, if not already.

Over the course of this week,

0:41:230:41:28

Theresa May will want her Government

to focus on Brexit and probably

0:41:280:41:30

won't want to have to talk about

Damian Green.

It is taking such a

0:41:300:41:37

long time. It is supposed to be

independent, not up to the Prime

0:41:370:41:43

Minister when it comes back. There

is another enquiry into a Mark

0:41:430:41:50

Garnier. Questions will mount.

Andrew Mitchell, a couple of points

0:41:500:41:57

- Damian Green - do you think there

needs to be a decision made before

0:41:570:42:02

Christmas?

I am sure there will be a

decision. I think he is doing a very

0:42:020:42:10

good job as effectively the Deputy

Prime Minister and I hope he will

0:42:100:42:13

continue.

He has had an

investigation into him. Theresa May

0:42:130:42:21

said there must be zero tolerance of

sexual harassment in Parliament, and

0:42:210:42:26

Michael Fallon resigned because he

said his behaviour was below the

0:42:260:42:31

expected standards, so what should

happen in terms of Damian Green?

I

0:42:310:42:35

have seen no evidence at all of

harassment by Damian Green, but

0:42:350:42:39

there has been an investigation. I

can't second-guess that. As I say, I

0:42:390:42:45

think he's a very good minister and

I'm sure he will survive.

Let's turn

0:42:450:42:50

to the withdrawal bill. Dominic

grieve's Amendment, your collar,

0:42:500:42:54

which would force a truly meaningful

vote on the final EU deal, meaning

0:42:540:42:59

that MPs like yourselves would have

the chance to send Theresa May back

0:42:590:43:03

to Brussels, would you support it?

We will see what happens in the

0:43:030:43:07

debate, but I am certain the

Government will want to agree to a

0:43:070:43:10

meaningful vote. I think we will

have to see how the amendment goes.

0:43:100:43:15

I will be surprised if the

Government resisted that amendment.

0:43:150:43:18

You think they will give way?

I

think it is a sensible amendment,

0:43:180:43:23

and Dominic grieve has already

improved the bill quite

0:43:230:43:26

significantly. I think the

Government will listen to what

0:43:260:43:29

Dominic has to say.

You would be

prepared to vote for it that the

0:43:290:43:32

Government doesn't come from ice?

Lets see where we get to, but I

0:43:320:43:36

think it is a sensible amendment.

We

had an opposition day debate where

0:43:360:43:42

we put that question on the floor of

the House, and it went through.

That

0:43:420:43:45

is different from putting it on the

face of the bill.

But the will of

0:43:450:43:50

the House has been made clear.

I

think it is sensible that the House

0:43:500:43:54

should have a meaningful vote, and I

don't think the Government will want

0:43:540:43:57

to resist that.

0:43:570:44:08

A couple of weeks ago,

we took a look at the people in key

0:44:120:44:16

positions behind the scenes

in Downing Street.

0:44:160:44:17

But what about that other SW1 power

base, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party?

0:44:170:44:20

Here's Emma Vardy with the latest

instalment of our occasional series

0:44:200:44:23

Westminster Village.

0:44:230:44:24

Jeremy Corbyn spent years

as a backbencher looking

0:44:240:44:26

at Parliamentary offices not much

bigger than a

0:44:260:44:28

cupboard.

0:44:280:44:29

But now he and his top team

have a whole floor to

0:44:290:44:32

themselves.

0:44:320:44:33

It's even got a nice balcony.

0:44:330:44:34

The executive director

of the leader's office is Karie

0:44:340:44:36

Murphy.

0:44:360:44:37

She used to work for

the deputy leader Tom Watson.

0:44:370:44:44

And we thought we'd

dig this out of the

0:44:440:44:46

archives one more time.

0:44:460:44:47

Her reaction to our mood box testing

opinion on the Shadow Cabinet.

0:44:470:44:50

This is a stunt by

ill informed people.

0:44:500:44:52

Nice to meet you too.

0:44:520:44:53

And meet a man known

as Jeremy Corbyn's brain.

0:44:530:44:55

We don't talk about economic rights

0:44:550:44:57

and I think people

need economic rights.

0:44:570:44:59

Andrew Fisher used to take

to the stage himself, like at this

0:44:590:45:01

trade union event.

0:45:010:45:02

But he's now more of

a behind-the-scenes guy working

0:45:020:45:05

as Corbyn's head of policy.

0:45:050:45:06

Didn't Thatcher promise us this?

0:45:060:45:08

Seamus Milne is a top spin

doctor and rumoured to be

0:45:080:45:11

the man who got JC to

smarten up his image.

0:45:110:45:13

He's a former Guardian journalist

and now trusted close

0:45:130:45:15

aide.

0:45:150:45:19

The MPs are incredibly

out of touch, I think.

0:45:190:45:21

That's why we've seen

these shocks in politics.

0:45:210:45:24

Seen here on the day

of the EU referendum

0:45:240:45:26

result, James Schneider looks

after strategy in the comms team.

0:45:260:45:30

He's an ex-Lib Dem and

Greens supporter and

0:45:300:45:33

was previously on our screens

representing the pro-Corbyn

0:45:330:45:36

grassroots organisation Momentum.

0:45:360:45:40

Politics has changed.

0:45:400:45:42

We are in this sort

of national crisis period.

0:45:420:45:44

Corbyn's inner circle also

includes Amy Jackson,

0:45:440:45:46

political secretary,

and

0:45:460:45:48

former MP Katy Clark,

who is looking into

0:45:480:45:50

potentially big changes

that

0:45:500:45:52

will give Labour Party

members more power.

0:45:520:45:57

And after his recent shoot with GQ

magazine, the editor later

0:45:570:46:05

said Corbyn's entourage pushed him

about like a grandad.

0:46:050:46:07

The actual shoot itself

was quite torturous.

0:46:070:46:09

It was as difficult as shooting any

Hollywood celebrity.

0:46:090:46:11

Really?

0:46:110:46:12

It's not all fun and celebrity

appearances, you know?

0:46:120:46:15

This is where the party

machine operates from.

0:46:150:46:17

Labour HQ in the heart

of Westminster.

0:46:170:46:22

Iain McNicol is the General

Secretary of the Labour

0:46:220:46:25

Party, its organisational chief.

0:46:250:46:26

The other key figures

in the Corbyn camp

0:46:260:46:28

are his family.

0:46:280:46:38

As we learned in this

fly-on-the-wall Vice

0:46:390:46:42

documentary, he married his Mexican

wife Laura Alvarez in 2013, after

0:46:420:46:44

they had a long-distance

relationship when she was working in

0:46:440:46:47

banking back home.

0:46:470:46:49

And here's Seb Corbyn,

Jeremy's second son.

0:46:490:46:52

After working on his dad's election

campaign in 2015, Seb was appointed

0:46:520:46:55

Shadow Chancellor John

McDonnell's Chief of Staff.

0:46:550:47:02

And these days, behind-the-scenes,

I can also reveal

0:47:020:47:05

that Corbyn has a personal dresser,

his own Bentley driver, a private

0:47:050:47:07

butler...

0:47:070:47:09

Not really, this was his spoof

appearance on The Last Leg

0:47:090:47:12

comedy programme, of course.

0:47:120:47:18

You're more likely

to see him like this.

0:47:180:47:20

Good morning.

0:47:200:47:21

Nice to see you all,

thank you so much for coming.

0:47:210:47:24

Jeremy Corbyn back in normal attire

and back on his bike.

0:47:310:47:34

I'm now joined by Kevin

Maguire, associate editor

0:47:340:47:36

of the Daily Mirror.

0:47:360:47:37

Welcome to The Daily Politics. How

has the operation changed at Labour

0:47:370:47:41

since the general election?

I think

it has continued since the general

0:47:410:47:44

election, they are fine tuning it,

but the big changes were when he

0:47:440:47:48

first became leader and people came

in and he wasn't quite sure where he

0:47:480:47:51

wanted to go, there was a lot of

discord. Then he seemed to sort it

0:47:510:47:54

out after that attempt to topple him

and he went into the election and

0:47:540:47:58

did far better than even he thought,

now he can just feel some authority

0:47:580:48:02

and competence around that team. The

crucial player is Karie Murphy, the

0:48:020:48:09

chief of staff, who is kind of a

good friend bad enemy but she gets

0:48:090:48:12

things done and that's really

important.

So who else does Jeremy

0:48:120:48:16

Corbyn really listen to? Karie

Murphy and Seamus Milne.

The thin

0:48:160:48:25

controller, he was at the Guardian.

He's hugely intellectual and knows

0:48:250:48:29

what he is coming from politically

and ideologically and he is

0:48:290:48:32

physically capable of shouting --

incapable of shouting. Is very calm.

0:48:320:48:37

But is the big political influence

behind Jeremy Corbyn?

There are many

0:48:370:48:43

political influences, there are

people like Dawn, Diane Abbott, John

0:48:430:48:46

McDonnell, they have a lot of

influence. Len McCluskey from the

0:48:460:48:51

trade unions. But in the office

Seamus Milne is more than a spin

0:48:510:48:55

doctor. He does have a role on

strategy and that's not to say there

0:48:550:48:58

are not disagreements within the

team. But they seem relatively

0:48:580:49:01

harmonious, and more so than I

believe Ed Miliband's team, a really

0:49:010:49:06

bright team, but there seems to be

too much competition in turn of the.

0:49:060:49:09

So there is a sort of sense of

purpose, unity in terms of sense of

0:49:090:49:13

purpose. Will it strike people as

odd that quite a few of his advisers

0:49:130:49:21

are public school educated and even

from the same school, Winchester?

It

0:49:210:49:24

is clearly a very popular school in

the Jeremy Corbyn office. James

0:49:240:49:26

Schneider is a Bollinger Bolshevik,

Seamus Milne himself... It is a bit

0:49:260:49:30

odd. I agree. I suspect the working

class, the cloth cap, the whippet on

0:49:300:49:39

a bit of string comes in the Labour

Party chair who is a former coal

0:49:390:49:44

miner. It is a bit strange but

left-wing politics, like right-wing

0:49:440:49:48

politics, are often dominated at the

top by people from private schools.

0:49:480:49:52

The Conservative Party has never

been short of them itself, has it?

0:49:520:49:57

No, indeed. Turn into the grassroots

organisation Momentum which backed

0:49:570:50:02

Jeremy Corbyn. How important is it

in terms of the day-to-day running

0:50:020:50:04

of his office?

Day-to-day running of

his office, not that important, but

0:50:040:50:09

in terms of organising around the

conference, there will be selections

0:50:090:50:15

of councillors, candidates and

parliamentary elections, although I

0:50:150:50:18

think it's massively overstated in

terms of deselection. It is then

0:50:180:50:22

very important. The one thing Jeremy

Corbyn has that Ed Miliband didn't

0:50:220:50:26

is a social movement, he has people

joining who will do a lot of the

0:50:260:50:29

heavy lifting, the leaflet

delivering, going along to meetings

0:50:290:50:33

in constituencies.

In fact, the

founder of that organisation, Jon

0:50:330:50:36

Lansman, what's the relationship

between -- what is the relationship

0:50:360:50:40

between him and Jeremy Corbyn.

Very

close, that's not to say there is

0:50:400:50:44

not friction between Corbyn's office

and Jeremy Landsman who has one foot

0:50:440:50:48

in a one foot out.

Jon Lansman.

You

have conflated them. Jon Lansman in

0:50:480:50:55

the 80s was a very sectarian figure.

I believe listening and watching and

0:50:550:51:01

talking to people around him now he

is a lot less sectarian and he will

0:51:010:51:05

now reach out. There is a lot of MPs

who don't like him, they dislike him

0:51:050:51:09

because their parties have a lot of

new people coming in, they don't

0:51:090:51:12

know who they are, they are being

challenged in ways they were not

0:51:120:51:16

used to. But Momentum is on the

1980s.

He said it is worse.

It is

0:51:160:51:27

nonsense. I remember the 80s, I've

got grey hair, I remember them at

0:51:270:51:31

the time. Momentum is very

different. Most people in Momentum

0:51:310:51:35

seem to be quite young and

idealistic.

What about the impact on

0:51:350:51:39

voters? There isn't anything sort of

materially different for the public

0:51:390:51:43

in terms of the changes at the top,

except if we take your word that

0:51:430:51:47

actually there is more unity. That,

of course, the public might notice.

0:51:470:51:52

They might also notice the

manifesto, for instance, which

0:51:520:51:55

Andrew Bishop, featured there, who

some MPs wanted kicked out of the

0:51:550:52:00

party over sin tweets he said before

the 2015 election which would the

0:52:000:52:04

rocketry about some -- which were

derogatory about some Labour MPs. --

0:52:040:52:13

some tweets. They spend months, and

years developing the manifesto.

0:52:130:52:24

Those mass rallies that get a lot of

publicity, they don't happen on

0:52:240:52:27

their own, some he has to organise

it, somebody has to think about it,

0:52:270:52:30

Summer Rae has to get in there.

How

much influence do you have on

0:52:300:52:34

day-to-day running at how close are

you to Jeremy Corbyn?

Not day-to-day

0:52:340:52:37

because there are lots of things I

have to do in my role. But the times

0:52:370:52:41

that I'm there in Jeremy's office

and working with the team, they are

0:52:410:52:49

phenomenal as a group of people.

Do

you contribute?

Occasionally, if I

0:52:490:52:56

have something to contribute of

course they will listen. That's the

0:52:560:52:59

thing about the teams, everybody

listens, even if there is

0:52:590:53:03

disagreement, you listen and talk it

through and come out at the end of

0:53:030:53:06

it all in agreement. The reason why

Andrew was able to produce such

0:53:060:53:09

fantastic manifesto in three weeks

was because it was the Court of the

0:53:090:53:13

Labour Party's believes what's

amazing -- it was the core of the

0:53:130:53:19

Labour Party.

Does Jeremy Corbyn

agree wholeheartedly with Kier

0:53:190:53:22

Starmer on the direction in terms of

Britain's relationship to the EU?

Of

0:53:220:53:27

course. Kier Starmer, as I said, he

is a guy of detail and has gone

0:53:270:53:32

through every detail. Jack was right

it becomes laborious and boring

0:53:320:53:35

talking about all of this and you

need somebody who will go through

0:53:350:53:38

the detail and embrace the detail

and say this is where we need to be

0:53:380:53:43

in our negotiating positions.

That

is why I asked if they are on the

0:53:430:53:46

same page.

I don't think they are.

Keir Starmer has been trying to pull

0:53:460:53:50

the Labour leadership towards a more

pro-EU position for sometime around

0:53:500:53:54

the Single Market and customs union.

It is a work in progress albeit

0:53:540:53:59

there are divisions quite clearly.

What about the divisions in Cabinet?

0:53:590:54:02

How will that happen with the future

negotiations?

There is a form to

0:54:020:54:07

these things, there is a Cabinet

discussion pending on what stage two

0:54:070:54:11

of the important negotiations looks

like. That's about more than just

0:54:110:54:15

the EU, it's about global Britain,

what is global Britain mean. There

0:54:150:54:19

is not a lot of flesh on the bones

at the moment. The way these things

0:54:190:54:23

happen is the Cabinet will discuss

it and the Prime Minister will make

0:54:230:54:26

a decision and in collective

responsibility binds everyone in. I

0:54:260:54:30

am certain the Conservative Party,

the government, will require a

0:54:300:54:37

collective responsibility to be

exerted when that moment comes.

You

0:54:370:54:39

don't expect any more briefings?

I

think they will decide to let the

0:54:390:54:41

negotiated to get on with doing the

negotiations and will back him.

0:54:410:54:44

Kevin Maguire, thank you.

0:54:440:54:51

Last night saw an unusual thing

happening, a conservative winning

0:54:510:54:55

the vote of the youth.

The new Queen

of the Jungle.

Georgia Toffolo of

0:54:550:55:03

made in Chelsea fame was crowned the

new Queen of the jungle in a tense

0:55:030:55:07

but dumber final of ITV's I'm a

Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here!. But

0:55:070:55:12

she was not the only conservative

leaning public figure to win a vote

0:55:120:55:15

recently. New Conservative MP Ben

Bradlee snatched victory in the

0:55:150:55:18

coveted beard of the year contest,

dethroning Jeremy Corbyn for the

0:55:180:55:22

first time in years and becoming the

first ever Conservative MP to win

0:55:220:55:26

the competition in the process. Here

he is talking about his historic

0:55:260:55:29

victory.

0:55:290:55:31

I've heard the big

news that apparently

0:55:310:55:32

I have been successful

in

0:55:320:55:38

my campaign to be

Parliamentary Beard of The Year.

0:55:380:55:40

Now, obviously this

is pretty exciting.

0:55:400:55:41

I am flushed with emotion.

0:55:410:55:43

Flushed.

0:55:430:55:43

And I need to immediately

thank everybody

0:55:430:55:45

who has supported and voted for me.

0:55:450:55:47

It was like general election

night all over again.

0:55:470:55:51

He is genuinely thrilled. Is the

tide turning for Conservatives and

0:55:510:55:56

the youth vote?

0:55:560:56:01

You can perhaps sense my tongue is

ever so slightly in my cheek here.

0:56:010:56:04

But to discuss this I'm joined

by Joe Twyman of YouGov.

0:56:040:56:07

What do you think? Has the tide

turned?

It's easy to over interpret

0:56:070:56:09

some of the things we see on TV.

Toff did when and she was a

0:56:090:56:20

conservative but the important thing

is she is a reality TV star. If you

0:56:200:56:24

look at the results of I'm a celeb

to me out of here the winners have

0:56:240:56:28

been reality TV stars, essentially

people used to playing the role of a

0:56:280:56:32

normal person on TV. When you

compare her to the actual

0:56:320:56:36

politicians, Kezia Dugdale and

Stanley Johnson, you see that they

0:56:360:56:40

really don't do very well at all.

Neither of them made it into the

0:56:400:56:43

final five. And also, do we know

that the people voting for her were

0:56:430:56:49

necessarily young people? I don't

know much about the voting for it

0:56:490:56:53

but I would imagine that the more

accurate data we have around two

0:56:530:56:57

thirds of new entrants into the

electorate, for instance, voting

0:56:570:57:01

Labour suggests the Conservatives

still have some way to go.

The

0:57:010:57:05

politics is really incidental?

I

would say when it comes to reality

0:57:050:57:10

TV, politics is one thing and the

ability to eat an animal's genitals

0:57:100:57:14

is perhaps far more important. I'm

not suggesting that if Theresa May

0:57:140:57:19

or Jeremy Corbyn were to eat animal

genitals they necessarily would

0:57:190:57:23

increase their popularity, even if

it was televised. But we really

0:57:230:57:25

don't know.

Thank you for that focus

just before lunchtime on that issue,

0:57:250:57:31

it turned my stomach somewhat. Are

there any other areas in which young

0:57:310:57:35

Conservatives, if that is the way

they are voting, are either

0:57:350:57:39

supporting or performing better in

these sorts of competitions?

What I

0:57:390:57:43

think is really interesting, talking

seriously now, is the fact we are

0:57:430:57:47

seeing celebrities. My senses we are

seeing celebrities more open about

0:57:470:57:50

their political allegiances, indeed

either side. If you look back to the

0:57:500:57:55

EU referendum it was difficult to

find a younger celebrity, 70 under

0:57:550:57:59

the age of 30, who would be drawn on

whether they were Remain or Leave.

0:57:590:58:06

Generally speaking most were keeping

quiet. -- certainly under the age of

0:58:060:58:11

30. We have seen more people engaged

in the political process and that is

0:58:110:58:15

reflected in celebrities.

Thank you

very much.

0:58:150:58:17

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:170:58:20

Do you remember the question you

two?

0:58:200:58:23

Over the weekend Theresa May

decorate a Christmas tree

0:58:230:58:25

in her church in her constituency.

0:58:250:58:27

So, the question for today

was, what did she put

0:58:270:58:29

on the top of the tree?

0:58:290:58:31

Was it a) A gold star b) An angel c)

A silver shoe or d) A bauble

0:58:310:58:35

with of Jean-Claude

Juncker face on it.

0:58:350:58:37

I reckon she has thrown a few shoes

in this negotiation process.

I think

0:58:370:58:39

we are agreed. I think that the

bauble...

It was not the bauble.

It

0:58:390:58:45

would have looked very good but I

think it was the shoe which wins it.

0:58:450:58:49

You are right, it was heels all

around at the top of the tree, well

0:58:490:58:53

done. You can have the bauble with

Jean-Claude Juncker's face on it

0:58:530:58:56

instead. Thank you to our guests

Dawn and Andrew and I will be back

0:58:560:59:00

tomorrow at noon. Goodbye.

0:59:000:59:02

Jo Coburn is joined by former Conservative cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell and shadow equalities minister Dawn Butler to discuss the future direction of the Brexit negotiations and Labour's report on financial services.


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