08/12/2017 Daily Politics


08/12/2017

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and interviews. She is joined by journalists Polly Toynbee and Camilla Tominey for reaction to the breakthrough in Brexit negotiations.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May secures a breakthrough

in Brexit, after striking

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a last-minute deal with the EU

to move talks on to the next phase.

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Getting to this point has required

give and take on both sides,

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and I believe that the joint report

being published is in the best

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interests of the whole of the UK.

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I very much welcome the prospect

of moving ahead to the next phase.

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Brussels describes the deal

as a "personal victory"

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for the Prime Minister.

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She admits she's had a hard week

after earlier attempts at reaching

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agreement collapsed.

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There's been progress

on major sticking points

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including the Irish border -

but if you thought that was

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difficult, negotiators will now move

onto the even trickier business

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of trying to agree

a post-Brexit trade deal.

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All that in the next hour -

and with me for all of it,

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two journalists with views on Brexit

about as wide as

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the English Channel.

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It's the Guardian's Polly Toynbee,

and Camilla Tominey

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from the Sunday Express.

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Perhaps we can build

a few bridges today -

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or even a Channel Tunnel.

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So, Theresa May landed in Brussels

shortly before 6am this morning

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to finalise a new draft agreement

between Britain and the EU,

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having negotiated by phone

into the early hours with key

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players including the leader

of Northern Ireland's

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Democratic Unionist Party,

Arlene Foster.

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At a joint press conference

with the Prime Minister this

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morning, European Commission

President Jean-Claude Juncker said

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he is satisfied that the fabled

"sufficient progress" has now been

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made, meaning talks

can move on to trade

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and transition in the new year.

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Barring any last-minute upsets -

and who in all of this

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would entirely rule one out?

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- the deal should be signed off

at next week's meeting

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of European leaders.

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We've been working extremely hard

this week and, as you've all seen,

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it hasn't been easy for either side.

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When we met on Monday,

we said a deal was within reach.

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What we have arrived at today

represents a significant improvement

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and I'm grateful to the negotiating

teams, led by David Davis and Michel

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Barnier, for their efforts.

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Getting to this point has required

give and take on both sides

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and I believe that the joint report

being published is in the best

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interests of the UK.

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I very much welcome the prospect

of moving ahead to the next phase

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to talk about trade and security

and to discuss the positive

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and ambitious future relationship

that is in all of our interests.

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On the basis of the mandate

which was given to me

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by the European Council,

the commission has just formally

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decided to recommend

to the European Council that

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sufficient progress has now

been made on the strict

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terms of the divorce.

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While being satisfied

with today's agreement,

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which is obviously the personal

success of Prime Minister Theresa

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May, let us remember that the most

difficult challenge is still ahead.

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We all know that breaking up is hard

but breaking up and building

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a new relation is much harder.

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Camilla, can Theresa May rightly

claim personal success for this?

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Well, they say a week is a long time

in politics and if you compare where

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she is now to where she was at least

48 hours ago, where I think senior

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Brexiteers were ready to perhaps be

a little bit more disloyal than they

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have been, being very vehement about

the fact she might have been rolling

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over and it was going on the wrong

direction, you had Jacob Rees-Mogg

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talking about the pain killing of

her red lines and Peter Bone making

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a joke about did she need him to

accompany her out there to secure

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the negotiations, and the DUP

looking to secure a better future in

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terms of Brexiteers, I think things

have changed and the fact she has

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been personally congratulated by

Donald Tusk as well as by

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Jean-Claude Juncker, who said it was

a personal victory for her, it takes

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into a much better position this

week and that she may have been.

Do

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you think the people you just

mentioned, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Peter

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Bone amber lights, are on-board?

So

far, Leave Means Leave have released

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a statement and they're present all

these Brexiteers. We have heard from

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Farage and others who seem to be on

the more extremist and a Brexit who

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are not going to be happy, just as

those on the extremist end of any

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debate are often not happy with what

seems to be a compromise. I think

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the EU has met us a long way when it

comes to ECJ, I think there have

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been some concessions made by this

side. I think so-called pragmatic

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Brexiteers will be saying to

themselves, it is not perfect but is

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better than where we thought we were

earlier in the week and equally, I

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think you have a situation where

people are accepting that in a

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compromised series of negotiations,

nobody is going to be 100% happy and

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if anyone was 100% tabby, that would

mean the negotiations were too far

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waited in one way or the other.

It

has been a Herculean task to get all

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the different strands on-board - the

Irish government and the EU are on

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the same side, you've got the DUP,

both wings of the Conservative

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Party, and she has managed it.

They

have all managed it. The Europeans

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have been very keen... The praise

they have lavished on her, to keep

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her there because they are afraid

they could get something much worse

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if she is unseated and this week it

looked as if the high Brexiteers

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might have pushed her off her feet

but in the end, all they have done

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is kick the can down the road. We

know we have a guarantee of a soft

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border, we have this alignment right

across the whole European Union...

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If the trade deal isn't actually

secured. It is the fallback option,

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full alignment for the whole of the

UK.

Yes, but you can't have both

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things. If you have alignment, it

has to be near as dammit in the

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customs union rules.

But I think...

Wait a minute. It has got to be very

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close. The French and everybody else

have said you can't have an open

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border, you can't have a soft

border, unless you have almost

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identical trading agreements, in

which case most of the Remainers

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will be mostly happy because they

know we are going to leave the EU

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anyway. What they are really worried

about is divorcing ourselves from

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the single market and the customs

union and if, in effect, we are more

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or less staying in it to keep the

border open, then they're happy, but

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when that becomes clear the other

lot won't be, the Peter Bone we're

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and Jacob Rees-Moggs.

We are going

to pick over it like a dog with a

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vote later in the programme. -- dog

with a bone.

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So, the deal came before dawn,

allowing Theresa May

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and her negotiating partners

in Brussels a chance to smile over

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croissants and orange juice.

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But what exactly did they agree?

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The report makes the commitment

that there will be no hard

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border between the UK

and the Republic of Ireland.

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It is unclear how this will be

achieved but in the absence

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of agreement on the issue

between the EU and UK

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during trade negotiations,

it says the UK will maintain "full

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alignment" with EU rules, in areas

pertaining to Northern Ireland.

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The Good Friday Agreement

and the Common Travel

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Area will be upheld.

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EU citizens living in

the UK and vice versa

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will have their rights to live,

work and study protected.

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UK courts will preside over

enforcing the rights of EU citizens

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in Britain but can refer unclear

cases to "ultimate arbiter of Union

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law" the European Court

of Justice for eight years

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after the UK's withdrawal.

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In terms of the money,

no specific figure is mentioned

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But the two parties have agreed a

formula to calculate the financial

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settlement.

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The UK has made a number

of financial commitments,

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including paying into the EU

budget as usual in 2019/20

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as well as its pension

contributions liabilities.

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The report will have to be agreed

upon by the European Council summit

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next Thursday and Friday, before

negotiations about the UK's future

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relationship with the EU can start.

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We're joined now from Brussels

by our correspondent Kevin Connolly.

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Everybody talks about give and take.

Who has given more and who has taken

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more?

The Europeans are going to

feel that they have got an awful lot

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of what they wanted out of the

British, for example the idea that

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Britain didn't owe the European

Union a penny has been quietly

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shelved. That is the most

spectacular example of what Brussels

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would see as the shifting of ground

on the British side. The UK can

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point to some areas where the

European Union has rowed back. At

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one point, those European agencies

which are being moved from London to

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other European cities as a result of

Brexit, the EU was going to ask for

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the British side to pay all the

costs of that removal process. That

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seems to have gone away. So Britain

can point to concessions and I think

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it is critical for Theresa May that

this doesn't look like a process

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where Britain is a supplicant or

where it is trying to pass a series

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of tests set by the European Union

but rather that it is a genuine

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negotiation. I think there is enough

on both sides that that argument can

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be plausibly made but there is no

doubt that the European Union has an

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enormous amount of power in this

relationship, because the great

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prize for Theresa May, the thing we

can now start. About, is that trade

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negotiation. I will not miss the

phrase sufficient progress because

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we have been saying a daily for nine

months sufficient progress has now

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been made and people are Donald Tusk

and Michel Barnier are warning that

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the next bit is the really hard bit.

It took the EU seven years to

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negotiate a free trade agreement

with friendly, liberal, reasonable

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Canada, so it is not going to be

easy but at least it is now under

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way and the timetable has been stuck

two and a deadline has been met, so

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what looked at the start of this

week, frankly, like a wobbly,

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uncertain process now looks a bit

more predictable from the Brussels

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point of view so there is a palpable

sense of relief here this morning.

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And we're joined now by the Brexit

minister Steve Baker.

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It hasn't been easy reaching this

point. If we just look at this week,

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the Prime Minister thought she had

an agreement on Monday and then the

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DUP withdrew support it up last

night, she had to fly to Brussels on

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in the middle of the night it

seemed, in order to get that

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agreement are gone to the next

phase. How do you think the next bit

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is going to go?

I think it is going

to be an interesting town to be in

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politics and public policy.

That

much we know.

I think we're going to

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accelerate our capacity in the

negotiations and of future

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relationship in the paper and I

would expect to see an increase in

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progress that we make.

Let's turn to

the limitation period. Have the EU

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agreed to want and how long would it

be?

We need to get onto the future

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relationship negotiations before a

negotiation period so that is

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something we can do at the council.

But there is going to be an

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intimidation period?

That is the

policy and I am glad it is. We

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expected to be two years because the

Prime Minister has explained, it is

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about how long we need to do the

practical things which lead to the

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best possible exit.

It could be

longer than two years?

We expected

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to be two years.

Junior limitation

period, the UK will stay in the

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single market on the customs union

and the EU guidelines for the future

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relationship so that.

What the Prime

Minister explained the France speech

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is that we would continue in the

plantation period within the

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framework of current de Leeuw law.

But upon what is not often be made

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here is that in order to conclude

that agreement would need to be

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outside the treaties, which is a

matter of EU law. So the trick is to

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leave the sphere of treaty law and

be outside the EU without ending on

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the practical arrangements so we

have that period of stability and

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continuity.

I have the council

guidelines in front of me and they

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are talking about transitional

arrangements and it says, "In order

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to ensure a level playing field

based on the same rules applied

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throughout the single market,

changes to the act adopted by EU

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institutions and bodies will have to

apply both in the UK and the EU. All

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existing union regulatory budgetary,

supervisory, judiciary and

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enforcement instruments will also

apply". Do you agree?

We don't

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comment on leaked documents.

This is

leaked but it is the general

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secretariat of the council, the

European Council draft guidelines.

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It is extremely clear.

What you've

just read out is consistent with

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what the Prime Minister has

previously said and is also

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consistent with what the EU has

previously said. But what I would

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say is, there is space for everyone

to move considerably through this

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process.

Whitbread will change?

Would Freeman to -- freedom of

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movement continue?

The point is that

we have managed to achieve

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significant progress in a way which

is, I think, broadly being welcomed

0:14:090:14:14

and that means we can get onto the

future relationship conversation in

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order to agree a future relationship

which is in everyone's best

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interests.

That future agreement

would include signing new trade

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deals, for example, the future, but

not during this transition period.

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Do you accept that Britain will not

be able to strike any new trade

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deals until March 2021 at the

earliest?

The issue is when you can

0:14:340:14:38

start negotiating them and when you

can put them into place. Under the

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framework of the fermentation

period, I think we all expect we

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would not be able to implement new

trade agreements with new countries

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during the implementation period.

So

2021 would be the earliest?

I would

0:14:500:14:55

expect us to start negotiating

during the limitation period for

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conclusion after it. I expect we

could get onto a great deal of

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detailed work through Liam Fox's

department.

And freedom of movement

0:15:030:15:08

would continue until March 2021?

The

date which is relevant to the

0:15:080:15:12

agreement which has been struck his

exit day but we will need to get on

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and talk about the future

relationship before any of those

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things have been agreed.

Do you

accept they have said you will have

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to sign up to all of the agreements,

including the four freedoms, if you

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are going to remain part of the

customs union and single market

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until transition is finished?

You

asking me to comment on league

0:15:290:15:32

documents and we don't do that.

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Do you accept the UK would still

have freedom of movement up until

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2021?

I am going to celebrate we

have achieved sufficient progress.

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We will get through the negotiations

knowing what our objectives are and

0:15:510:15:54

then we will conclude a

relationship. I'd take a judgment

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like every member of Parliament and

every member of the public.

So

0:15:590:16:03

freedom of movement could continue?

We are very clear we are going to be

0:16:030:16:06

taking back control of our laws,

borders, money, trade policy.

When?

0:16:060:16:12

We need to get into the future

relationship agreement.

You've just

0:16:120:16:16

said you'll make a judgment. Freedom

of movement you will take in the

0:16:160:16:21

round along with everything else

including that you trade deal.

The

0:16:210:16:24

Prime Minister is very clear that we

are taking back control of our

0:16:240:16:28

migration policy. There is a

migration Bill coming forward.

0:16:280:16:32

People watching will understand

we've just moved from one testing

0:16:320:16:36

negotiation in order to move into

the next phase of a testing

0:16:360:16:40

negotiation. It's not for me as a

Minister in the government to

0:16:400:16:44

pre-empt that long negotiation.

So

there are no red lines?

Of course.

0:16:440:16:52

What are they?

The ones the primers

to set out in her Lancaster House

0:16:520:16:56

speech and Florence speech -- the

Prime Minister. We are clear the

0:16:560:17:01

implementation period needs to

conducted in the framework of EU

0:17:010:17:05

rules.

Including freedom of movement

and the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

0:17:050:17:12

These will be matters of

negotiation. For the moment we need

0:17:120:17:15

to go forward with this agreement to

the council, the other nations of

0:17:150:17:21

Europe agree with us it's not all

about interests to move forward.

0:17:210:17:26

Let's talk about the European Court

of Justice. In this document but

0:17:260:17:30

also in discussions there has been

agreement by the UK that the ECJ

0:17:300:17:34

will continue to have a role as

being the arbiter on EU citizens'

0:17:340:17:38

rights. That will continue until

2021.

You mean the withdrawal

0:17:380:17:45

agreement?

The agreement you've

signed up to. The withdrawal

0:17:450:17:48

agreement is clear there is a

voluntary limited role for our

0:17:480:17:53

courts to refer cases to the

European Court so that we can

0:17:530:17:56

establish a body of case law within

the withdrawal agreement. Let's keep

0:17:560:18:02

it simple. The European Court of

Justice will continue to have a role

0:18:020:18:06

as the ultimate arbiter beyond

transition for eight years.

The

0:18:060:18:10

direct jurisdiction of the Court of

Justice will end. There will be a

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capacity for our courts to make a

voluntary referral to the Court of

0:18:150:18:19

justice and case law where there is

a gap in case law, on the body of

0:18:190:18:25

law as it exists on exit day. I

think that is a reasonable thing to

0:18:250:18:29

do to give citizens certainty as the

withdrawal agreement beds in, so we

0:18:290:18:34

can all understand caselaw on the

withdrawal agreement is being

0:18:340:18:39

consistently interpreted. I think

that is a civilised thing to do for

0:18:390:18:43

European citizens which I would have

thought that people who took the

0:18:430:18:45

view we should keep people well

would welcome.

You may well be right

0:18:450:18:51

but it wasn't what we were led to

believe by some of your colleagues

0:18:510:18:54

who said that every single aspect of

the ECJ would end when we leave.

0:18:540:19:02

This is a negotiation and we've

worked through a range of complex

0:19:020:19:05

issues. We've reached a position

which I am happy to accept, much as

0:19:050:19:11

many of us would have liked to keep

things simple to everybody, but the

0:19:110:19:15

reality is we need to do what is

right by European citizens. We've

0:19:150:19:20

agreed this mechanism of voluntary

limited referral on narrow grounds,

0:19:200:19:24

which I think is reasonable as we

establish the caselaw of with -- of

0:19:240:19:32

the withdrawal agreement.

Let's talk

about the agreement of the DUP. What

0:19:320:19:38

does it mean?

The first thing to say

is it refers to a fallback scenario

0:19:380:19:42

in the event we don't reach a

quality future relationship

0:19:420:19:45

agreement. We want to honour the

Belfast agreement and inshore

0:19:450:19:53

North-South co-operation on the

island of Ireland continues. This is

0:19:530:19:58

about a fallback position, it's not

about where we want to go. The

0:19:580:20:02

document is extremely clear that the

UK will preserve its political and

0:20:020:20:05

economic integrity, that the United

Kingdom will leave the customs union

0:20:050:20:10

and single market.

What does full

nine and -- full alignment mean? You

0:20:100:20:16

said the integrity of the UK will

stay in its entirety, so does that

0:20:160:20:22

full alignment with customs and

standards of the EU applied to the

0:20:220:20:25

whole of the UK in that full --

fallback scenario?

I'm expecting us

0:20:250:20:33

to discuss all these issues. I would

expect us to agree objectives and

0:20:330:20:39

then regulatory recognition, which

is a standard practice in trade

0:20:390:20:43

agreements, so that we have a

capacity to sometimes agree on what

0:20:430:20:47

we want to achieve and how we do it,

and sometimes to agree that we will

0:20:470:20:51

differ in how we meet the same

shared objectives.

In order to keep

0:20:510:20:56

that soft border between Ireland and

Northern Ireland, you accept that in

0:20:560:21:02

that full and macro fallback

position we will be signed up to the

0:21:020:21:06

standards and regulations and

customs of the EU?

What I accept is

0:21:060:21:11

we've had a great success...

You are

not answering the questions about

0:21:110:21:16

what has actually been agreed.

I

would have thought you would welcome

0:21:160:21:19

we've got onto the future

relationship agreement which would

0:21:190:21:22

allow us to resolve some of these

issues collaboratively and jointly

0:21:220:21:25

in everyone's mutual interests.

How

did you get the DUP to agree to this

0:21:250:21:31

when they were so unhappy a few days

ago?

I wasn't party to the

0:21:310:21:36

conversation. As they've explained,

I saw Arlene Foster explaining it,

0:21:360:21:40

there have been a number of changes.

In particular that the commitment to

0:21:400:21:45

maintaining the constitution and

economic integrity of the UK

0:21:450:21:48

including Northern Ireland.

Let's

talk about the money. Philip Hammond

0:21:480:21:52

says we will be paying that divorce

settlement Bill even without a trade

0:21:520:21:57

deal, is that right?

The situation

is nothing is agreed until

0:21:570:22:00

everything is agreed.

So he is

wrong?

Nothing is agreed until

0:22:000:22:06

everything is agreed. We are a rule

of law nation state which wishes to

0:22:060:22:09

honour its commitments which we've

incurred but we are moving through

0:22:090:22:12

this negotiation in a spirit of

goodwill, wishing to set up a new

0:22:120:22:17

partnership which serves us. Quite

so when Philip Hammond said he would

0:22:170:22:23

find it inconceivable that we

wouldn't actually pay for our

0:22:230:22:27

obligations and contributions even

if we didn't secure a free trade

0:22:270:22:31

deal did he misspeak? We are

proceeding in a spirit of

0:22:310:22:35

cooperation is looking towards our

future relationship. In those

0:22:350:22:38

circumstances we would expect to

meet our commitments which we have

0:22:380:22:41

entered into, and to move forward

into that new relationship. These

0:22:410:22:45

things go together. We need to focus

on a process of moving through the

0:22:450:22:50

negotiation, to land in a place

which suits everyone.

I'm still not

0:22:500:22:54

clear. Will we pay the £45 billion

which has been talked about in the

0:22:540:22:59

divorce settlement whether we get a

trade deal or not?

I'm not expecting

0:22:590:23:03

to pay a figure as high as £45

billion.

£40 billion then?

We are

0:23:030:23:10

expecting to move through into a

process where we conclude a

0:23:100:23:15

relationship in everyone's best

interest, that is where all of us

0:23:150:23:18

should be focusing our efforts.

Polly Toynbee, listening to Steve

0:23:180:23:22

Baker, do you think it is clear that

there are no more red lines in the

0:23:220:23:27

negotiations that are now going to

proceed?

I'm delighted to hear, it

0:23:270:23:32

really sounds as if there aren't. I

was on the politics with Steve Baker

0:23:320:23:38

before he became a Minister. He was

an adamant Leaver and he wouldn't

0:23:380:23:45

have accepted paying a significant

amount of money, staying under the

0:23:450:23:49

ECJ...

We went beyond the ECJ.

And

above all, alignment such that we

0:23:490:23:54

can have a soft border with Ireland.

It is a very good thing, the DUP

0:23:540:24:00

were right about that. That

alignment means in effect we are

0:24:000:24:04

moral less in the single market and

customs union. If that is what

0:24:040:24:10

happens I will be delighted.

Can you

guarantee that the whole of the

0:24:100:24:15

UK...

I did think I've changed my

views. I've always been a rule of

0:24:150:24:20

law Conservative, boys understood we

will want to have a cooperative

0:24:200:24:24

relationship. What I've wanted to do

is change the structure of that

0:24:240:24:28

relationship. What I would expect to

happen, and it is a

0:24:280:24:32

mischaracterisation to talk about

being under the ECJ. We will not be.

0:24:320:24:35

The direct jurisdiction of the ECJ

will come to an end and we will

0:24:350:24:39

control our laws. I'm sorry it's

slightly complex but I'd explained

0:24:390:24:44

in some detail but what we need to

do is have the capacity for a

0:24:440:24:47

voluntary referral to establish the

caselaw of the withdrawal agreement

0:24:470:24:52

on the narrow question of citizens'

rights, where they've already...

0:24:520:25:01

Polly, we are going to have to move

on. You said that figure of £45

0:25:010:25:06

billion was way over, what should it

be in your mind?

There will be a

0:25:060:25:11

technical briefing which will

explain more of this. Our budget

0:25:110:25:14

contributions which we've already...

Will be less?

I would expect it to.

0:25:140:25:22

How has the deal been received by

those in the Labour Party arguing

0:25:220:25:26

for the close as possible

relationship with the EU after

0:25:260:25:28

Brexit? Chuka Umunna joins me now

from south London. Do you welcome

0:25:280:25:35

this agreement?

I'm pleased we are

moving to the next phase. It's about

0:25:350:25:40

time. The government has wasted a

lot of time, we are 18 months into

0:25:400:25:45

this process and very little

progress in the overall scheme of

0:25:450:25:49

things. I'm pleased.

0:25:490:25:55

It's interesting listening to Steve

Baker radically trying to repaint

0:25:550:25:58

the lines set out in the Prime

Minister's speech last January. If

0:25:580:26:02

you go back to all the things she

said, there would be no adherence to

0:26:020:26:07

European Court of Justice rulings,

clearly that is going to be the case

0:26:070:26:10

in respect of EU citizens' rights in

the document that has just been

0:26:100:26:14

released by the commission. We were

told there wouldn't be huge

0:26:140:26:18

contributions into the EU budget, we

will be contributing until 2020, and

0:26:180:26:22

of course there is the divorce Bill

which in some respects was the price

0:26:220:26:26

of being able to move to the next

age of over £40 billion.

What should

0:26:260:26:33

the Labour leadership under Jeremy

Corbyn and Keir Starmer when it

0:26:330:26:36

comes to Brexit, what should their

position be now?

It's very clear

0:26:360:26:41

that in order to be able to get the

exact same economic benefits as we

0:26:410:26:47

enjoyed at the moment in the

European Union once we've left, we

0:26:470:26:50

need to stay in the single market

and the customs union permanently. A

0:26:500:26:53

lot has been talked about

transition, business has asked for a

0:26:530:26:59

decent transition period. What

transition does is it simply delays

0:26:590:27:02

jumping off the cliff if you don't

have proper arrangements in place

0:27:020:27:06

afterwards.

Do you expect to hear

that now from the shadow team in

0:27:060:27:15

your party, that they should commit

to staying in the single market and

0:27:150:27:18

the customs union?

I'm very pleased

to hear Keir Starmer say at the

0:27:180:27:24

dispatch box this week that we think

will these options should stay on

0:27:240:27:28

the table. That's very encouraging.

I would like us to go that bit

0:27:280:27:32

further and be absolutely clear that

we are seeking to stay in the

0:27:320:27:36

customs union and the single market

permanently. The big thing here is,

0:27:360:27:40

every time this move forward we see

new facts emerging. That big divorce

0:27:400:27:46

Bill that Steve Baker has been

trying to dismiss almost, that

0:27:460:27:50

wasn't what people thought they were

going to be voting for. If you're

0:27:500:27:53

paying that big divorce Bill which

we will be paying, you aren't going

0:27:530:27:57

to get the £350 million extra per

week going to the NHS, which was

0:27:570:28:02

central to the campaign Steve Baker

was part. You go back to many of the

0:28:020:28:06

other things said. I remember when

Tony Blair and John Major went to

0:28:060:28:09

Northern Ireland as part of

referendum campaign and people said

0:28:090:28:14

when they were talking a potential

problems with the Irish border that

0:28:140:28:17

they were engaging in project here.

That has dominated proceedings over

0:28:170:28:20

the last couple of weeks. Every time

we move forward new facts are

0:28:200:28:27

presenting themselves and that is

why we have to have an open mind

0:28:270:28:30

about what happened at the end of

this process...

Do you have an open

0:28:300:28:35

mind on the agreement that has been

reached, because the DUP and the

0:28:350:28:40

Irish government as well as the EU

generally are on board at this

0:28:400:28:44

point, and there seems to be a

commitment and broad agreement that

0:28:440:28:48

there will be this open border, as

will be integrity of the UK going

0:28:480:28:54

forward be retained? Surely you're

happy about that?

Absolutely. My

0:28:540:28:59

central argument here is there is

going to be a lot of focus on

0:28:590:29:03

government competence and how long

this has taken. The fact is, Brexit

0:29:030:29:06

in the terms it was sold to the

British people is proving impossible

0:29:060:29:12

to deliver.

That's what compromises

about, isn't it?

Absolutely. I

0:29:120:29:17

wasn't the one setting the red lines

in this process at the start. It was

0:29:170:29:21

people like Steve Baker and his

Prime Minister setting out all these

0:29:210:29:25

ridiculous red lines which has meant

that we've wasted all this time. At

0:29:250:29:28

the end of the day they have

committed to this document, they are

0:29:280:29:34

committed to the concept of

alignment. The whole reason people

0:29:340:29:37

like Steve Baker, Boris Johnson,

Michael Gove and others were arguing

0:29:370:29:40

for us to leave the EU was to enable

both virgins. Now they've just

0:29:400:29:44

agreed to alignment. Why are we

going through this whole process?

0:29:440:29:48

Thank you. We've heard from some

Brexit supporting MPs within the

0:29:480:29:54

Conservative Party this morning and

on the whole they've given that the

0:29:540:29:57

only cautious welcome. What of the

self-styled guard dogs of Brexit,

0:29:570:30:04

Ukip? Their leader joins me now. Do

you want to join the queue

0:30:040:30:08

congratulating the Prime Minister

and the government on this

0:30:080:30:11

agreement?

Absolutely not. What this

is is a total surrender to the

0:30:110:30:17

European Commission. In fact, having

worked in Brussels for three years I

0:30:170:30:22

recognise the style of the document

that is being produced and I would

0:30:220:30:25

say 80-90% of it was drafted in

Brussels. We don't know that but

0:30:250:30:29

that is my guess.

But the prize is a

trade deal is going to be negotiated

0:30:290:30:36

and Britain are successful in that

surely it will have your support?

0:30:360:30:42

But if there is no agreement we stay

under full alignment and means

0:30:420:30:46

effectively that we are tied to the

customs union, to the single market

0:30:460:30:51

and therefore to the European Court

of Justice in that regard.

Steve

0:30:510:30:55

Baker has just said we won't see the

customs union. He said we will not

0:30:550:31:00

say the customs union or the single

market and that this is a fallback

0:31:000:31:06

option and will only apply to

certain areas under the Good Friday

0:31:060:31:12

Agreement.

That is not actually

correct because, first of all, we

0:31:120:31:15

may not be part of it but what we

will be having to do is comply with

0:31:150:31:20

it in every respect, so we won't

have the freedom to move off it if

0:31:200:31:23

that's the best interests of the

country, for example in terms of

0:31:230:31:27

trade deals and aligning ourselves

to the requirements of export

0:31:270:31:34

markets, but with regards to the

Good Friday Agreement for the

0:31:340:31:37

Northern Irish border, that is the

starting point. The government and

0:31:370:31:41

we have never asked for, the UK, has

never asked for a board of there.

0:31:410:31:45

What Theresa May has allowed to

happen is that the European

0:31:450:31:48

Commission who want an external

border want us to come up with the

0:31:480:31:54

solution. What the Government has

agreed to do in this agreement is a

0:31:540:31:59

line for Northern Ireland but then

by paragraph 50, it actually says

0:31:590:32:08

that the UK will not actually

implement any barrier to alignment

0:32:080:32:15

between Northern Ireland and the

rest of the UK. And therefore we are

0:32:150:32:19

fully tied to it as the entire UK

and I don't support in any way,

0:32:190:32:26

absolutely oppose, anything that

provides an obstacle between

0:32:260:32:28

Northern Ireland and the rest of the

UK.

The point is, you are a lone

0:32:280:32:33

voice, really. Ukip has, to some

extent, been marginalised and if

0:32:330:32:38

Euro-sceptic Tory MPs and ministers

have signed up to this, then your

0:32:380:32:42

words are going to fall on deaf

ears.

I don't think so. It is a fair

0:32:420:32:48

observation but the thing is, they

are all aligning behind this because

0:32:480:32:50

the Tory party are in such a mess

over this. We've had a sequence of

0:32:500:32:55

rather disastrous political and

dramatic events.

They are united,

0:32:550:32:58

aren't they?

Yes, because they want

to preserve the Conservative Party

0:32:580:33:05

in power.

They may say that is the

point of them.

It is why Steve Baker

0:33:050:33:10

is trying to sell this as the

headline issue - isn't it good news

0:33:100:33:14

that there is an agreement?

Unfortunately, what they are reliant

0:33:140:33:17

on is that 99 present of the

population when they read the small

0:33:170:33:21

print, and the small print says you

have basically made an agreement

0:33:210:33:23

where you are going to be handed

over a whole lot of money but we are

0:33:230:33:27

still not going to have control over

our immigration, we are still going

0:33:270:33:31

to be tied, if not intrinsically

members of, tied to the European

0:33:310:33:36

Common Market and single market and

customs union and therefore the ECJ.

0:33:360:33:40

Soares no withdrawal from this and

there is no end state or any

0:33:400:33:43

incentive to reach a further

agreement.

Thank you very much.

0:33:430:33:47

Before I move onto my next guest,

your observation so far, having

0:33:470:33:51

listened to Steve Baker, who was

always described as an art Dureau

0:33:510:33:55

sceptic, and also to Henry Bolton of

Ukip. Do they matter?

I think we

0:33:550:34:00

need to have further discussion of

what this full alignment means,

0:34:000:34:05

because it has lost the word

regulatory which means it is open to

0:34:050:34:09

wide interpretation. And it is a

fallback position. Second of all, we

0:34:090:34:13

need to look at the facts that when

Polly said we have kicked the issue

0:34:130:34:18

to the curb and have put into the

long grass because you need to get

0:34:180:34:21

to the next age, that is because the

Government all were started from a

0:34:210:34:24

position that you couldn't discuss

the Northern Ireland border issue

0:34:240:34:27

unless you were discussing the trade

agreement so they have achieved

0:34:270:34:30

something in that and then moved

that plank of discussions to the

0:34:300:34:33

next stage because they belong

there. Therefore I think, when we

0:34:330:34:37

break this down because it is

getting quite competent ethical, --

0:34:370:34:45

complex and technical, our viewers

will be concerned with the price

0:34:450:34:47

that is put on this and 40 billion

is being bandied around and what I'm

0:34:470:34:53

interested in is what price people

will find acceptable. Will the

0:34:530:34:57

Brexiteer readers of our newspaper

the kid pain for long-term gain?

We

0:34:570:35:01

are joined by the shadow Brexit

secretary, Kier Starmer. Welcome.

0:35:010:35:07

Should the PMB congratulated?

It is

good there has been progress. That

0:35:070:35:10

has come a bit later than we thought

but it is progress and it is

0:35:100:35:14

important that we put the deadline

next week because if that had been

0:35:140:35:17

missed, there was going to be

another three months until we got

0:35:170:35:21

that deadline and we do need to move

on. About the next stage, most

0:35:210:35:24

importantly transitional measures,

because businesses around the

0:35:240:35:29

country are all saying, we need to

know that there will be transitional

0:35:290:35:33

measures and they will be on the

same terms as now, and that is a

0:35:330:35:36

debate that should have started in

October, frankly. It needs to start

0:35:360:35:40

straightaway. It is good that we

have got to this stage.

When are we

0:35:400:35:44

going to hear from Jeremy Corbyn,

the leader of the Labour Party, on

0:35:440:35:47

this very important moment in

Britain possible constitutional

0:35:470:35:51

history?

Jeremy dealt with Brexit

PMQs this week.

But today an

0:35:510:35:56

agreement has been reached. Wouldn't

you expect to hear from Jeremy

0:35:560:36:00

Corbyn?

Jeremy is a Geneva and we

have a statement out within half an

0:36:000:36:03

hour of the developments within

Brussels. I've done various bits of

0:36:030:36:07

media this morning and will do

various more. I hope that is putting

0:36:070:36:12

across our message.

Let's try to get

to what your messages because you

0:36:120:36:15

want to retain the benefits of the

single market as closely as

0:36:150:36:19

possible. Isn't the best way of

retaining the benefits of the single

0:36:190:36:23

market staying in the single market?

Well, this question of staying in

0:36:230:36:27

needs to be dealt with and we

haven't really dealt with it. At the

0:36:270:36:31

moment we are an EU member and as an

EU member, we are in the single

0:36:310:36:35

market. When we leave, we then have

to strike a new agreement with the

0:36:350:36:40

EU. We are not staying in, you have

got to do something positive so

0:36:400:36:45

we've got to reach an agreement. We

are saying, reach an agreement that

0:36:450:36:50

delivers the benefits of the single

market so we can participate...

The

0:36:500:36:54

EU aren't going to give us a deal

where we keep all the benefits of a

0:36:540:36:58

single market without the four

freedoms so, as I say, if you want

0:36:580:37:01

to retain the benefits of the single

market in the way that Labour has

0:37:010:37:05

described, you need to stay in the

single market.

There was no question

0:37:050:37:09

of staying in.

That is off the

table?

I really don't want to lose

0:37:090:37:17

it, the clarity of this. We are in

the single market as an EU member.

0:37:170:37:23

If we are to fully participate in

the single market in the future, we

0:37:230:37:27

need to strike an agreement, a

treaty with the EU, going forward.

0:37:270:37:30

That is what Norway did 24 years

ago, we will have to do a 21st

0:37:300:37:35

century version of that. That have

to be negotiated but in the

0:37:350:37:41

meantime, transitional, we stay in

because that is something available

0:37:410:37:45

to us under Article 50 but after

that, strike a new agreement that

0:37:450:37:48

allows us to participate fully in

the single market. That is what we

0:37:480:37:52

want to achieve and we want to

achieve it because it makes sense

0:37:520:37:56

for business. Or businesses want to

trade successfully in the future as

0:37:560:37:59

they have in the past. Will it be a

difficult negotiation? You bet it

0:37:590:38:03

will. Is it worth having?

Yes, it

is. And I clarify, because your

0:38:030:38:15

colleague Jenny Chapman was sitting

where you are and said to me a few

0:38:150:38:18

days ago that the issue of staying

in the customs union should be left

0:38:180:38:21

on the table.

The customs union is

difficult.

I need to clarify it for

0:38:210:38:24

viewers who may be thinking, like

Chuka Umunna has just said, he would

0:38:240:38:26

like to hear you say that we are

staying unmissable market -- in the

0:38:260:38:30

single market and some of the

rhetoric from Labour implies that is

0:38:300:38:33

what you want to do but you have

said it is off the table. Our

0:38:330:38:37

current membership of the single

market is on or off the table?

The

0:38:370:38:42

single market and Customs union are

two different things and our

0:38:420:38:45

position is we want to retain the

benefits both of them and that all

0:38:450:38:48

options should be the table. If we

are to retain the option of fully

0:38:480:38:52

but as a leading the single market,

we have to strike an agreement with

0:38:520:38:56

the EU to get that and that is what

we need to do. At the moment we are

0:38:560:39:00

an EU member. Chukka and I want the

same outcome, which is the then if

0:39:000:39:06

it of the single market and customs

union. And talking about how we get

0:39:060:39:10

it.

While we were talking, Jeremy

Corbyn has been speaking to the

0:39:100:39:15

United Nations in Geneva. Is

subject, Britain's place in the

0:39:150:39:19

world after Brexit. Let's listen to

the Labour leader speaking a short

0:39:190:39:22

while ago.

My party stands for a

completely different future when we

0:39:220:39:26

leave the EU, drawing on the best of

the internationalist traditions of

0:39:260:39:32

the Labour movement and of our

country. We want to see a close and

0:39:320:39:40

cooperative relationship with our

European neighbours outside the

0:39:400:39:44

European Union, based on solidarity,

as well as mutual benefit and fair

0:39:440:39:50

trade, along with a wider, proactive

internationalism across the globe.

0:39:500:39:58

Let's get onto the customs union.

That is still on the table. Yes.

0:39:580:40:02

Let's just step back and see what

we're trying to achieve. In Northern

0:40:020:40:06

Ireland, if you are to avoid a hard

border, whether it is your first all

0:40:060:40:11

fallback position, you're going to

have to have alignment north to

0:40:110:40:14

south. It is the only way. I went to

Norway and Sweden to look at the

0:40:140:40:18

border between those two countries.

It is a hard border, there is

0:40:180:40:22

infrastructure, you have to stop and

be checked.

The DUP said they don't

0:40:220:40:27

want Northern Ireland to be treated

separately in any way to other parts

0:40:270:40:30

of the UK.

And therefore if you have

alignment north to south in Northern

0:40:300:40:34

Ireland, between a country that has

left the EU, in the future, and a

0:40:340:40:39

country that is in it, you have

aligned with the EU for the purposes

0:40:390:40:41

of bulb Island, if you then a line

across the UK, which you have to do

0:40:410:40:46

because we need a UK wide agreement,

you have therefore created alignment

0:40:460:40:50

and playing by the same rules, the

same standards in future. That is a

0:40:500:40:57

good thing. It is a good thing

because it means we can trade in the

0:40:570:41:00

future with our European colleagues

as successfully as we can now and

0:41:000:41:03

that is a huge goal that we should

all be aiming for.

Explained to us

0:41:030:41:09

how Labour's policy on migration and

integration would work, because in

0:41:090:41:13

the manifesto it said, freedom of

movement will end when Britain

0:41:130:41:18

leaves the EU. And that is still the

case. So during a transition period,

0:41:180:41:25

will freedom of movement... You

would like to see freedom of

0:41:250:41:29

movement continue?

Yes. What we've

said is, we will not reach the final

0:41:290:41:33

agreement with the EU by March 2019,

therefore pennies to be a

0:41:330:41:37

transitional period. That should be

on the same terms as now, which

0:41:370:41:41

means in the customs union, in a

single market with European Court of

0:41:410:41:46

Justice and with freedom of movement

until we reach the final agreement.

0:41:460:41:49

When we reach the final agreement,

that will be the new treaty, the

0:41:490:41:53

21st century treaty, if we get this

right, that will, I hope, deliver

0:41:530:41:57

the benefits of the customs union

and the single market. That is what

0:41:570:42:00

we are aiming for.

Polly?

Keir

Starmer is a lawyer and I think

0:42:000:42:07

sometimes people misunderstand the

difference between technically being

0:42:070:42:09

in the single market and actually

being on the same terms as the

0:42:090:42:15

single market. I'm not sure it makes

very much difference. What matters

0:42:150:42:18

is that we get exactly the same

trade agreement, single market and

0:42:180:42:22

customs union, as we have noted that

is what matters to the DUP and for

0:42:220:42:27

the border. There is no way we can

have a soft border unless we have an

0:42:270:42:32

almost identical system to now.

Which means in a sense that the

0:42:320:42:36

extreme Brexiteers don't get what

they want.

Camilla, what would you

0:42:360:42:40

let your readers think of that?

I'm

confused. I know you've tried to

0:42:400:42:44

explain as a number of times, Keir

0:42:440:42:47

confused. I know you've tried to

explain as a number of times, Keir,

0:42:470:42:47

but I think people are confused with

trying to mirror single market and

0:42:470:42:53

customs union membership but not

being in it but maybe being in it a

0:42:530:42:59

bit. People often say Brexiteers

don't know what they were voting

0:42:590:43:01

for. Chukka said it earlier. How

would he know? He has never been a

0:43:010:43:06

Brexiteer. Brexiteers voted to

maintain control of our legal

0:43:060:43:11

system, to control immigration, to

have free trading partnerships with

0:43:110:43:13

the rest of the world and to move

forward in that brave new future.

0:43:130:43:17

What you are both suggesting is a

fudge and is not what the British

0:43:170:43:20

public voted for.

There are two bits

of this. There is the referendum and

0:43:200:43:25

what is the future relationship with

the EU going to be? I don't think

0:43:250:43:30

anybody voted either way to damage

our trading relationship with the EU

0:43:300:43:34

and if we don't stay aligned, if we

don't have the benefits of the

0:43:340:43:38

single market and customs union, if

we haven't got a customs union

0:43:380:43:42

arrangement, if we are not fully but

as a leading unmissable market, it

0:43:420:43:46

will damage our trade with the EU. I

haven't met anybody who voted Leave

0:43:460:43:51

who said, "I was voting to damage

our trade with the EU". Unless you

0:43:510:43:56

stay aligned and you are

participating fully in the single

0:43:560:44:00

market... That is why this is so

important. In the end, maybe it is

0:44:000:44:06

overly lawyer like. We need a set of

arrangements delivering in a way

0:44:060:44:09

they deliver now because that is the

only way to preserve trade of the

0:44:090:44:14

future and nobody voted to damage

our ability to succeed in trading

0:44:140:44:17

with the EU in the future. We need

to be clear about this because

0:44:170:44:21

whatever this arrangement is, it is

going to be the arrangement for

0:44:210:44:25

decades to come and we need to get

it right and make a big decision,

0:44:250:44:28

which is, are we living in Europe is

our major trading partner for the

0:44:280:44:33

future or are we under other fancy

that there is some of the group of

0:44:330:44:40

countries out there?

Remaining fully

aligned with those customs and

0:44:400:44:43

standards, we will in essence be

taking some of the rules from the

0:44:430:44:46

European Union, which is not what

Brexit meant.

We will be on the same

0:44:460:44:51

level playing field, we will be

applying the same standards and so

0:44:510:44:55

we should.

And we will take rules

from the European Union and will

0:44:550:44:58

have no say in how they are set out.

Who wants to reduce rights at work?

0:44:580:45:04

Who wants less rights for

environmental protection?

How are

0:45:040:45:08

you taking away from the trade union

movement by saying that rights at

0:45:080:45:14

work or you construct?

Those who

want to divert those on lower

0:45:140:45:19

standards.

You can't possibly be

saying is a labourer but it is only

0:45:190:45:22

the EU that attributes rights at

work. What are you saying about your

0:45:220:45:25

own trade union movement?

The social

chapter had to be fought for and

0:45:250:45:28

fought for and the Tories kept us

out of it and then Labour got us in.

0:45:280:45:32

Nobody is saying it was going to be

taken away. It was new rights that

0:45:320:45:36

came from Europe.

To suggest we

would submit are at works' rights as

0:45:360:45:42

a result of leaving the EU...

It is

not a question of where they came

0:45:420:45:47

from. The basic deal in Europe is,

you get the huge advantage of the

0:45:470:45:51

customs union and single market so

long as you are on a level playing

0:45:510:45:54

field and so it is not where the

rights came from, it is whether we

0:45:540:45:57

have the same standards across

Europe. If you have the same

0:45:570:46:01

standards you can continue to trade

successfully into the future. If you

0:46:010:46:05

don't, you can't.

0:46:050:46:10

Will freedom of movement end when we

leave?

It will have to change, the

0:46:100:46:15

Labour Party has been clear about

that. It's a matter for the

0:46:150:46:18

negotiations. We need to think about

what immigration rules we want to.

0:46:180:46:23

How will it change? Will it actually

end?

Yes, because once we leave the

0:46:230:46:28

EU the rule about freedom of

movement goes. We've got to draft

0:46:280:46:32

immigration rules then. That is what

we are expecting, and immigration

0:46:320:46:36

Bill coming down the track from the

government. Once we leave those

0:46:360:46:42

rules are gone and we've got to

craft them in our own legislation.

0:46:420:46:45

You accept we won't have the access

to the single market in the way we

0:46:450:46:48

have it now as a member?

That the

depends on the negotiations.

So its

0:46:480:46:57

cake and eat it?

Know it's not what

he would start negotiations by

0:46:570:47:01

saying please drop my arm off

because I want to be worse off than

0:47:010:47:03

I am now? Of course you start off by

saying we want the benefits and a

0:47:030:47:08

model that works for the 21st

century and discussion of freedom of

0:47:080:47:13

movement. Europe has changed over

the years, we haven't established

0:47:130:47:16

precisely what rules we want an

immigration. To throw that away

0:47:160:47:20

before we start means we would

damage our trade with Europe and I

0:47:200:47:26

don't think anybody voted for that.

Thank you.

0:47:260:47:28

As we've been saying,

the sticking point which caused

0:47:280:47:30

the Brexit negotiations to collapse

at the beginning of the week

0:47:300:47:33

was the status of the Irish border.

0:47:330:47:35

So has that been resolved

to the satisfaction of both

0:47:350:47:37

Northern Ireland's DUP

and the Irish government?

0:47:370:47:39

Here's the Irish Taoiseach

Leo Varadkar and the

0:47:390:47:41

DUP's Arelene Foster.

0:47:410:47:44

We have achieved all that we set out

to achieve in phase one

0:47:440:47:47

of these negotiations.

0:47:470:47:50

We have the assurances

and guarantees we need

0:47:500:47:51

from the United Kingdom,

and support for them

0:47:510:47:53

from the European Union.

0:47:530:48:01

I'm satisfied that sufficient

progress has now been made

0:48:010:48:04

on the Irish issues.

0:48:040:48:05

The parameters have been

set, and they are good.

0:48:050:48:07

Now we can move on to work out

the detail of what has been agreed

0:48:070:48:10

to talk about the transition phase,

free trade, and the new relationship

0:48:100:48:13

between the EU and the UK.

0:48:130:48:19

We believe there have been six

substantive changes,

0:48:190:48:21

and we're pleased to see those

changes, because for me it means

0:48:210:48:24

that there is no red

line down the Irish Sea.

0:48:240:48:30

We have the very clear

confirmation that the entirety

0:48:300:48:32

of the United Kingdom

is leaving the European Union,

0:48:320:48:36

leaving the single market,

leaving the customs union,

0:48:360:48:38

and I think that's a very

important statement to have.

0:48:380:48:40

It's also vitally important,

of course, that the integrity

0:48:400:48:42

of the United Kingdom

was kept in place.

0:48:420:48:48

But there are still matters

there that we would have liked

0:48:480:48:50

to have seen clarified.

0:48:500:48:57

We ran out of time, essentially.

0:48:570:48:58

We think that we needed to go back

again and talk about those matters.

0:48:580:49:02

I'm joined now by

Christopher Montgomery who,

0:49:020:49:03

although a Tory, was the DUP's Chief

of Staff in Westminster

0:49:030:49:06

until earlier this year.

0:49:060:49:11

Welcome to The Daily Politics. Did

the DUP caving in the end?

This

0:49:110:49:17

wasn't about the DUP. This is the

thing people keep getting wrong.

0:49:170:49:20

Everything that should have happened

on Monday but have happened today

0:49:200:49:23

was about one thing, getting the

Irish Republic off the hook of Leo

0:49:230:49:28

Varadkar's extraordinary

irresponsible pre-election rhetoric

0:49:280:49:32

had got them on. As recently as a

fortnight ago, the position of the

0:49:320:49:40

Republic was that Northern Ireland

should stay in the customs union,

0:49:400:49:42

the single market. Everything that

has happened today should be legally

0:49:420:49:48

enshrined otherwise there would be a

veto. None of these things have

0:49:480:49:52

happened, they had disappeared like

tears in the rain.

Why did the DUP

0:49:520:49:56

threatened to walk?

What seems to

have happened on Monday was trying

0:49:560:50:01

to do two things. In Brussels it

seems as if they were trying to make

0:50:010:50:10

the case there should be UK wide

alignment and various areas of the

0:50:100:50:15

economy with EU standards. This

wasn't something that the Cabinet

0:50:150:50:19

knew that they were necessarily

going to go and do. There was a

0:50:190:50:27

tweet which inaccurately surmised...

It sends a signal to people...

You

0:50:270:50:45

are saying it was one tweet and

otherwise everything would have gone

0:50:450:50:50

smoothly.

You've got to put some

degree of blame on Number 10. You've

0:50:500:50:56

got to put some blame on the

unionists were not having the

0:50:560:50:59

relationship with Number 10 in a

more high functioning fashion.

So

0:50:590:51:03

nothing has really changed, so why

have the DUP agree to it?

It was

0:51:030:51:08

utterly meaningless. The words that

have been agreed to work complete

0:51:080:51:11

spoof. They were a device to allow

the republic to retreat from the

0:51:110:51:16

excessive rhetoric they had engaged

in. The things they claimed they

0:51:160:51:19

want, they haven't got. The Irish

Republic was the last country in the

0:51:190:51:24

EU 27 who would ever have...

We will

never know of course. They don't

0:51:240:51:32

sound very happy even now, the DUP.

Arlene Foster seemed to be saying it

0:51:320:51:36

in sorrow rather than anger and

Sammy Wilson from the DUP has said

0:51:360:51:43

this is all conditional and we

aren't completely signed up to it.

0:51:430:51:48

At any point the DUP could say we

are withdrawing our support.

That's

0:51:480:51:51

not just the DUP's position. The

British government's position is

0:51:510:51:57

nothing is agreed until everything

is agreed. We haven't pivoted into

0:51:570:52:01

phase two. There was a mythical

Irish veto in phase one, it is

0:52:010:52:07

disappeared.

One could argue the

threat worked.

To get what?

Polly

0:52:070:52:13

Toynbee, has there been a

substantive change between what was

0:52:130:52:17

in that draft text that seem to

upset Arlene Foster and the DUP so

0:52:170:52:22

much, regulatory alignment, and what

we have now which means the UK will

0:52:220:52:26

Act in its entirety, there will be

no special arrangements.

I think

0:52:260:52:31

there has been a big change. The DUP

were right to say no hard border and

0:52:310:52:35

no border on the sea, do not divide

us from the rest of the UK. The only

0:52:350:52:40

thing that's not the about the DUP

position is why did they ever vote

0:52:400:52:45

for Brexit in the first place. The

majority in Northern Ireland were

0:52:450:52:50

against Brexit.

I hate interop...

If

they had said they were for staying

0:52:500:52:58

in the EU and customs union and

single market it would all make

0:52:580:53:03

sense, but the DUP are very

contrary.

They are Unionists. The

0:53:030:53:11

union voted for Brexit. There wasn't

a referendum in Northern Ireland on

0:53:110:53:17

whether Northern Ireland should

leave, it was the same referendum.

0:53:170:53:25

In terms of looking ahead, Sammy

Wilson has also said "We need to be

0:53:250:53:32

fully involved in those talks to

void the hiccup we've had this

0:53:320:53:36

week". Should they be fairly across

every eye that has been dotted?

0:53:360:53:47

Absolutely.

The DUP is much more

important than people might like to

0:53:470:53:52

believe, it is the tail wagging the

dog?

The DUP has been important and

0:53:520:53:57

earlier in the week Downing Street

were briefing it wasn't an issue

0:53:570:53:59

with the DUP but an issue with Leo

Varadkar having seemingly overplayed

0:53:590:54:04

his hand, perhaps with Brussels

behind being the master puppeteer.

0:54:040:54:11

Of course they've changed the

wording.

I don't quite agree. Fine

0:54:110:54:17

Gael have gone up 5% in the polls.

You've got to understand the Irish

0:54:170:54:22

Republic has an attitude towards the

UK which is chippy. If you're

0:54:220:54:27

battering the Brits, it plays well.

Let's leave it there. If like me you

0:54:270:54:37

have left the Christmas shopping to

the last year, the Vladimir Putin

0:54:370:54:47

2018 calendar is out now.

0:54:470:54:54

There are plenty of snaps of Mr

Putin in action poses. Mr July is my

0:54:540:55:01

favourite and according to the

Kremlin it is flying off the shelves

0:55:010:55:04

in Britain. We've been unable to

find any shops in the UK stocking

0:55:040:55:11

the calendar and online sales have

been limited.

0:55:110:55:18

And I'm joined now by Mary Dejevsky,

a columnist for the Guardian.

0:55:180:55:23

Why are they saying these are

selling like hot cakes?

I know you

0:55:230:55:29

are seeing a great conspiracy and

fake ease. I would actually question

0:55:290:55:34

that because I was looking around

today to see about Putin calendars.

0:55:340:55:39

There's plenty of them online. You

can get them from all over including

0:55:390:55:44

the spectacular one up there you had

with a cheetah. The Putin calendar

0:55:440:55:55

has become a sort of set piece at

the end of the year. The idea that

0:55:550:55:59

over here it is a Kremlin sponsored

operation, nothing could be further

0:55:590:56:03

from the truth.

0:56:030:56:05

You should think of it more in terms

of the Jeremy Corbyn unofficial

0:56:050:56:10

annual or whatever.

LAUGHTER We've

had that, it's true! How do people

0:56:100:56:16

in the UK view stories like this?

I

don't think they have this idea that

0:56:160:56:22

there is malign intent behind them.

Are you sure?

To be serious for a

0:56:220:56:31

second, there is a big disconnect I

find between establishment views and

0:56:310:56:37

grassroots. Whenever I do phone-ins

about Russia, then you get a

0:56:370:56:41

completely different view from the

top which says everything is

0:56:410:56:45

dreadful, Putin is a dictator,

demonising him all over. People ring

0:56:450:56:50

in and say it's so unfair, it's so

wrong, you have to see it from their

0:56:500:56:55

point of view.

One might say it's a

bit sad to have a calendar of any

0:56:550:56:59

world leader on your wall but why

would anyone in Britain want to have

0:56:590:57:03

one of Vladimir Putin?

There's a bit

of an alternative thing about it.

0:57:030:57:07

It's not something probably that

everyone is going to have on

0:57:070:57:11

overall.

Have you got one?

I

definitely want one!

Are you going

0:57:110:57:20

to get them feel stocking fillers?

I

think so, I think it's really funny.

0:57:200:57:25

I think it's good for a secret Santa

and anything beats Cliff Richard!

0:57:250:57:31

Are you still with Cliff Richard?

It

never ceases to amaze us that he

0:57:310:57:36

tops the chart of the most popular

calendar every time.

Do you think it

0:57:360:57:42

will be popular here?

It's got a

rival. If I was betting on the rival

0:57:420:57:45

that's the one I would take. There's

Putin and dogs

LAUGHTER

0:57:450:57:51

that's the one I would take. There's

Putin and dogs

LAUGHTER.

It includes

0:57:510:57:57

a wonderful picture of him with his

gigantic dog. This is supposed to

0:57:570:58:02

give you the other view of Vladimir

Putin.

And being told the pictures

0:58:020:58:08

in the calendar are rather old, they

aren't very recent. They've been

0:58:080:58:14

recycled, does that surprise you?

That I don't know but there are

0:58:140:58:17

probably only so many poses a

president has time to strike.

He

0:58:170:58:22

manages it. Are you going to have

that one as well?

If I can find one.

0:58:220:58:30

It could be a bestseller. I'm sure

it really will be flying off the

0:58:300:58:35

shelf.

0:58:350:58:37

That's all for today.

0:58:370:58:38

Thanks to my guests.

0:58:380:58:42

This was almost a Brexit special, it

has to be said.

0:58:420:58:45

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:450:58:47

Sarah Smith will be back

on Sunday on BBC One at 11

0:58:470:58:50

with the Sunday Politics,

and I'll be back here

0:58:500:58:52

on BBC Two on Monday at midday

with more Daily Politics.

0:58:520:58:55

Bye-bye.

0:58:550:58:58

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by journalists Polly Toynbee and Camilla Tominey for reaction to the breakthrough in Brexit negotiations.


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