07/12/2017 Daily Politics


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07/12/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Martha Spurrier, the director of the human rights organisation Liberty, to discuss the latest on the Brexit negotiations.


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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May has until Sunday to come

up with fresh proposals

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on the Irish border,

so says the European Commission,

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or she faces the prospect of Brexit

talks being delayed till

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the New Year.

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But does she have the authority to

knock the necessary heads together?

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We'll have the latest.

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The Government says

President Trump's decision

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to recognise Jerusalem

as the capital of Israel

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is "unhelpful" to the peace process

as international condemnation

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grows.

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The Defence Secretary says British

citizens who join so-called

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Islamic State should not be allowed

to return to the UK and says

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we should do all we can

to "eliminate that threat".

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And in the wake of the sexual

harassment allegations

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in Westminster we speak

to the British political journalist

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who is among the so-called

'Silence Breakers' who've been named

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as Time magazine's

Person of the Year.

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All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today

is Martha Spurrier,

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director of the Human Rights

organisation Liberty -

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welcome to the show.

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The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson

has said that the crack cocaine of

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Islamist terrorism the fault of

repressive ray jeeps not western

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foreign policy. His speech at the

Foreign Office this morning comes a

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week after Michel Barnier raised

eyebrows by saying that in voting to

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leave the EU the UK was refusing to

stand shoulder to shoulder with its

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European allies in the fight against

terrorism. Here is Boris Johnson

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speaking in the last hour.

Contrary

to some of the Acerions you will

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have heard from overseas I can tell

you that every day, British serving

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men and women are putting thrives at

risk to roll up terrorist network,

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to expose what they are doing, to

thwart them, and to bring them to

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justice.

They are doing it not just on the

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behalf of the British people but for

everyone.

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May they are making good on what the

Prime Minister has called the

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unconditional commitment of the

British people, to the security of

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our European friends.

That was Boris Johnson, talking

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about the threat of terrorism. What

did you think about Michel Barnier's

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comments saying that once Britain

decided to leave the EU, they would

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no longer be standing shoulder to

shoulder or a risk of no longer

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standing shoulder to shoulder with

their partners over security.

I

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would be amazed if anyone who voted

to leave the European Union did so

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thinking it was a good thing not to

stand shoulder to shoulder in the

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fight against terrorism. Think it is

right you can have very strong

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alliances with people, whether you

are in a union with them or not.

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That is what we should be aiming

for. I think what it does really

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underline is it is important to get

this stuff in black-and-white. It is

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important to make sure that we can

stand shoulder to shoulder, by

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speaking out about the values that

we all hold dear together, and

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agreeing together how we are going

to enforce them globally. So that is

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things like making sure we can still

share information about criminals so

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victims' rights are protected or we

can share data in a way that

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protects or privacy right so all of

those things are important.

You see

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no difficulty between the two Brexit

Britain still that level of

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cooperation with the EU, even if we

don't have oversight if you like or

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jurisdiction from something like the

European Court of Justice.

I don't

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think there is any difficulty in

principle. I is about our moll

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fissions making sure it is enshrined

in UK law.

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US President Donald Trump's decision

to recognise Jerusalem

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as the capital of Israel and move

the US Embassy there from Tel Aviv

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has led to wide-spread condemnation

from US allies around the world.

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The announcement fulfils a campaign

promise from the President,

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and he said it was "nothing more

or less than a recognition

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of reality".

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However, the UK Government has said

it does not support the decision.

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This is what Foreign Office Minister

Alistair Burt had to say

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in the Commons earlier today.

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As my right honourable friend,

the Prime Minister, made clear

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in her statement yesterday,

we disagree with the US decision

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to move its embassy to Jerusalem,

and recognise Jerusalem

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as the Israeli capital before

a final status agreement.

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We believe it is unhelpful,

in terms of prospects

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for peace in the region.

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The British Embassy to Israel

is based in Tel Aviv and we have

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no plans to move it.

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Donald Trump is not crying fire

in a crowded theatre,

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he is deliberately setting fire

to the theatre.

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Then he has the unbelievable cheek

to claim that he is doing this

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to move forward the peace process,

when in reality, he is

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setting it back decades.

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Well, we are joined

now by Dr Alan Mendoza

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from the Henry Jackson Society,

and Martha is still with us.

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Welcome to the programme. How does

this recognition, this official

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recognition of Jerusalem as the

capital of Israel help the peace

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process and a two state solution?

It

is incidental to the peace process,

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it has been 25 years old now,

currently there is no peace process

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at this moment in time. And what

President Trump has said and stated

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it is time to recognise reality.

Jerusalem has been the capital of

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Israel since 1948, and he stated it

is not going to pre-judge the final

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talks when and if they come. It is

not about division, it is about

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recognising reality, they can select

its own capital.

How important in

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your mind is the idea of Jerusalem

also has the capital of a future

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Palestinian state.

That is highly

likely.

It is not incidental to the

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peace process.

It doesn't preclude

it. Why do you think declaring

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Jerusalem as a capital precludes it

from being the capital of Palestine.

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I don't see they are incompatible.

Do you think it is stating reality

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despite the sensitivities?

Absolutely not. I think this is a

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recognition of a capital in an

occupied territory, it is contrary

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to British foreign... I am delighted

the Prime Minister has condemned the

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move. We have already seen that

there is unrest and what this will

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lead to is a worsening of the

conflict situation there, people

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will be hurt and people's lives will

be lost. It sets back a peace

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process we no is fragile and that is

a dangerous move.

When you say it is

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occupied Jerusalem you mean east

Jerusalem is occupied or is whole?

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East just is recognised as occupied.

But west Jerusalem you are happy

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with as the capital?

I don't know

what you can have is a capital in a

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territory which is so fraught in

this peace process s it demonstrates

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a successful I don't agree that you

can say is for a democratic ally to

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name its capital, we can't say we

want our capital to be Paris or

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somewhere else in the world.

In your

mind what is the capital of Israel?

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The capital of Israel is Tel Aviv.

That is the way it must remain.

It

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isn't. It is Jerusalem. The Israelis

have controlled Jerusalem since

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1948. The western part. They

extended control to eastern

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Jerusalem in 6, for you to suggest

Tel Aviv is not the cap is the

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capital of Israel is the same as

Israelis saying Manchester is the

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capital of Britain.

How inflammatory

is it of Donald Trump to make what

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will be seen as an unnecessary move

to announce they are going to

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transfer the embassy from Tel Aviv

to Jerusalem, when it has been

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perfectly fine in Tel Aviv, all this

time?

Whendown saw it is

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unnecessary, Donald Trump is looking

to spark a process, and move things

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on, we have not been able to get

peace talks going.

How will this

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help spark the peace process when

Hamas in the Gaza Strip has said

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they have already call for a new

intifada.

Hamas is not party to the

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talks, it hasn't been part of the

peace process for 25 year, there is

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no indication it will be part of the

peace process o peace process going

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forward.

This has made it much more

difficult.

I don't think it will. On

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the contrary, what he needs to

understand, is that Palestinians

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cannot continue to be the blocking

party to this, the Israelis have for

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the last 25 years put deal after

deal on the table and the

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Palestinians starting with yas is a

Arafat have walked away from the

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deals. It is time to say there are

consequences, the world moves on, we

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can't be frozen, the paradigm of 94

forever.

I am going to bring in my

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colleague diplomatic correspondent

James Landale to talk briefly about

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Boris Johnson and what he said,

because you have been listening to

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that speech, we talked earlier about

a response to the comments made by

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Michel Barnier about whether Britain

would be able to stand shoulder to

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shoulder with the EU in the future

on security. Just tell us what he

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has been saying.

Well, the Foreign

Secretary, we use a phrase

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wide-ranging for speeches, he did

range over a great deal. He did

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without mentioned Michelle barn yes

put a push back and say by leaving

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the European Union, the UK is in no

way standing, stepping back from the

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fight against Islamist terrorism. On

Israel he was interesting in terms

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of what you have been discussing in

terms of the US decision to

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recognise Jerusalem as the capital.

He said is on the onus for the US to

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go further, they have played this

card, the US now has to make a play

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another card on the wider Middle

East peace process, say this is what

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the brokerage, the role that the

United States can play there, so

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trying to put more pressure back on

the US, and more broadly over the

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issue of Brexit, Boris Johnson was

asked about that. What he said there

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was he said that any deal had to be

UK-wide. Any offer to the DUP. He

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made it very clear that anything had

to ensure that once again, to use

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his phrase Britain secured control

over its borders and its money. So

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as ever, maintaining pretty hard

position on that.

Thank you very

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much. Let's pick up on that. That

Boris Johnson actually says the onus

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is back on the United States, what

should be done to bring Mohammad

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Abbas and the Palestinians to the

table?

I think the drive is

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happening right now, you have seen

for the last few months, a move by

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the President Trump and the

administration to bring in the wider

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Arab world.

How? What have they done

that will bring Mohammad Abbas to

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the table?

He needs to be pressured

by Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states

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to say we want a settlement. They

are using the threat of Iran to

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bring everything together.

Saudi

Arabia has condemned the move. What

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way will it help them get involved

as you say when they have been

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united to some extent over the issue

of Iran to pull the Palestinians

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into...

This is not an important

point in great scheme.

It is very

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important to the Palestinians. It is

critical.

Not the Saudi, what you

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will see happen is the continued

moves between the Israelis, the

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Saudis for other gulf states,

parties worried about the Iranian

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threat. This will be a kink in the

road. It will go back to being that

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alliance strategy.

On the basis of

Donald Trump's track record do you

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think this was throughout through,

there is a strategy, isn't this

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again clumsiness on behalf of the

President where in this case as

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Martha indicated it could end up

with violence.

I don't think so, if

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you look at what he has been saying

for the last eight months on the

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issue of Middle East peace there is

a plan, it has been executed by

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going to the gulf, going to Israel,

trying to bring the parties

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together. This is the next step.

There will be other steps to follow.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Yesterday, Stanley Johnson,

father of Boris, was booted out

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of the Jungle in I'm a Celebrity.

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He said he was looking forward

to checking his emails,

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but what did he want to find out?

0:13:040:13:10

If England were winning the Ashes.

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If his son, Boris,

was still Foreign Secretary.

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If Donald Trump had

abandoned Twitter.

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Or if he was getting an invite

to the Royal wedding next year.

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At the end of the show Martha

will give us the correct answer.

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The European Commission has said a

deal on the Irish border will need

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to be done by Sunday, in order for

EU and Britain to begin discussing

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trade negotiations at the EU summit

next Thursday. So how close are we

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to an agreement. Well, let us

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look at the developments

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look at the developments

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Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar

said last night he had

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spoken to Theresa May,

who told him she was working to find

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a "specific solution" to the Irish

border issue and would come back

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to the Irish government

with new text in the coming days.

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On the other side -

the DUP are continuing talks

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with the government but one source

told the Sun newspaper this morning

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that they won't be rushed

into an agreement because "this

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is a battle of who blinks first

and we've cut off our eyelids".

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In another development,

a group of Tory MPs has written

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a letter criticising colleagues

who they say are acting "highly

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irresponsibly" by talking up

the prospects of a no deal.

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The letter, which was arranged

by Conservative MP Nicky Morgan,

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is signed by 19 Tory backbenchers

and says it's "essential" Britain

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leaves the EU with a deal.

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And Chancellor Philip Hammond said

yesterday Britain should pay

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the £50 billion exit bill

with the European Union, even if

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Britain doesn't get a trade deal.

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That will go down well

with his Eurosceptic colleagues.

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overnight

There is lots of talk

about deadlines what I am certain

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about is people want something to

happen, they will make it happen, so

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we are going to get on with the job

and try and find the right way

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forward. I am in no doubt over the

coming days if there was a will to

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find agreement that will be found

regardless of what time of day or

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night it was.

It could be next

Thursday?

We are all working towards

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reaching an agreement at the

European Council next Thursday,

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there is different people saying

different things by what we have to

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do by when. There is a desire to

reach a resolution and I am sure

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people will be flexible.

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Joining me now is the Conservative

MP Vicky Ford who was one of the 19

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Tories to sign that letter

to the Prime Minister

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Welcome to The Daily Politics. The

letter points to the people talking

0:15:450:15:50

up a no-deal scenario. Who are they?

So the Prime Minister has made it

0:15:500:15:54

very clear that she wants to deliver

this deep partnership with Europe

0:15:540:15:58

and we are offering her our full

support. Others who are saying we

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should walk away from the

negotiating table now, you know,

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over a year before the deadline for

Brexit, I believe are being

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irresponsible because that deep

partnership with the Prime Minister

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want is so important for British

businesses. We need to make sure

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that we to keep talking.

So you are

talking about your Conservative

0:16:270:16:35

colleagues, those sort of people

who, in your mind are putting undue

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pressure on Theresa May?

I will not

Names or start new fights.

You are

0:16:380:16:48

talking about your Conservative

colleagues?

Trying to put more red

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lines on to the Prime Minister at

this stage is, in my view, not a

0:16:510:16:55

responsible thing to do. She needs

to decide what the red lines are.

0:16:550:17:00

She needs to to decide what the

negotiating areas are. And it is

0:17:000:17:04

really important that we do achieve

an amicable outcome, a deep

0:17:040:17:12

partnership for the long term for so

many areas of our economy and of our

0:17:120:17:15

daily lives.

Are you being

irresponsible? And your colleagues

0:17:150:17:18

who signed this letter by putting

pressure on Theresa May to say, you

0:17:180:17:22

mustn't walk away under any

circumstances?

No. The Prime

0:17:220:17:25

Minister has made it very clear that

she wishes to deliver that deep

0:17:250:17:29

partnership thapd is what question

are supporting her to do. The

0:17:290:17:33

deadline is at the end of the Brexit

negotiations. It would be very good

0:17:330:17:37

if we can move on to the next round

this month. I really hope we do. I

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hope we do for the EU citizens here.

It is very comply katd. There are 27

0:17:430:17:57

other countries involved and these

negotiations will take time.

Do you

0:17:570:18:02

think the EU is behaving unfairly.

They are putting Britain and Ireland

0:18:020:18:07

under enormous pressure here when

this could all be solved once the

0:18:070:18:10

discussions move on to trade?

I

think it is really complicated

0:18:100:18:14

because the EU is obviously not just

one organisation. They are trying to

0:18:140:18:19

work with 27 different countries.

Ireland is the country that is most

0:18:190:18:23

affected by Brexit. But it is in

Ireland's interest that we do find a

0:18:230:18:29

long-term agreement.

What is the is

the solution in your mind on the

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Irish border?

I think to solve the

Irish border issue we need some form

0:18:330:18:40

of regulatory alignment. You cannot

have goods banned on one side of the

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border but not on the other side of

the border and then still have an

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open border. So we need need some

form of regulatory co-operation.

0:18:480:18:53

That will need to apply to all of

the UK because we cannot then have a

0:18:530:18:58

border in the Irish Sea. Keeping the

UK together is really important. I

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hope Ireland will say, we are,

keeping the border open, we hear you

0:19:030:19:11

on keeping technical solutions to

delivering that. We want to work

0:19:110:19:15

with you to make sure we get the

long-term solution. Therefore we can

0:19:150:19:19

move on to talk about the long-term

partnership as well.

That is clear.

0:19:190:19:27

You think that if you keep the UK in

its entirety in terms of regulation

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then a solution can be found but for

people who are on, what you might

0:19:320:19:36

call the hard Brexit side of the

party, that means staying in some

0:19:360:19:41

sort of regulatory framework of the

EU and we would then be rule takers

0:19:410:19:45

- do you accept that?

I think they

may be making arguments on

0:19:450:19:50

principal, when in practise, this is

not a real argument. Most of the

0:19:500:19:55

issues on agricultural products

which go backwards and forwards

0:19:550:19:58

across the border. The UK Government

has made it very clear that we do

0:19:580:20:02

not wish to drop the standards, the

animal welfare standards, in

0:20:020:20:07

particular, and therefore we don't

intend to undercut the Irish farmers

0:20:070:20:11

on the other side of the border. I

think the more we can say we want to

0:20:110:20:15

continue to work to deliver the

highest possible regulatory

0:20:150:20:20

standards, as Michael Gove himself

has said that he wants to deliver,

0:20:200:20:23

then actually this becomes a less

sensitive argument.

Right, how do

0:20:230:20:27

you think the DUP is behaving here?

Do you think the DUP tail is wagging

0:20:270:20:33

the Government dog?

No. I think it's

absolute vital that we keep the

0:20:330:20:39

United Kingdom united. That was the

first promise that the Prime

0:20:390:20:43

Minister made outside the steps of

Downing Street was, I want to keep

0:20:430:20:46

the union together and it is very

clear if there had been a special

0:20:460:20:50

deal for Northern Ireland then there

would have been Something Special

0:20:500:20:54

for Scotland. The Scotts agreed to

ask for that immediately. We cannot

0:20:540:20:59

have one part of Britain being

sliced off from another part of

0:20:590:21:01

Britain. We have to stay together.

Thank you. Joining us for this is

0:21:010:21:12

Peter Bone.

0:21:120:21:17

Welcome back to The Daily Politics.

You and your colleagues have been

0:21:170:21:24

called highly irresponsible by Vicky

Ford and others.

1 p 7 days to go.

0:21:240:21:28

Another day nearer coming out of

this dreadful European Union super

0:21:280:21:32

state, so that is good news. Vicky

can write letters if she wants.

Are

0:21:320:21:37

you being highly responsible?

I am

100% behind the Prime Minister. I

0:21:370:21:41

understand the Prime Minister is

thinking about taking me to Brussels

0:21:410:21:44

to sort the problem out.

You are

putting more red lines in her way,

0:21:440:21:48

making it harder to move on to the

next phase?

You may say that but I

0:21:480:21:52

don't recognise that. Yesterday the

Prime Minister agreed that we would

0:21:520:21:56

end free movement when we came out

of the EU. We would stop sending

0:21:560:22:00

billions to the European Union. We

will make our own laws in our own

0:22:000:22:05

country, judged by British judges.

If she can deliver that, everyone

0:22:050:22:09

will be happy.

If there is not

progress and Britain does not move

0:22:090:22:12

on to the next phase, should Theresa

May walk away?

That is the correct

0:22:120:22:17

question, because if progress cannot

be made, the responsible situation

0:22:170:22:20

is to say, right, we obviously can't

do a deal. We have to give our

0:22:200:22:25

industry enough time to prepare.

What is the answer?

Yes. Walk away.

0:22:250:22:29

Tell the industry we will come out

on 29th March, 2019 on WTO rules and

0:22:290:22:35

therefore you can prepare for that.

And we won't, by the way, pay

0:22:350:22:39

billions of pounds to the European

Union. So within a few days I think

0:22:390:22:43

the European Union would rush back

to talk to us.

Soham Hammond is

0:22:430:22:48

wrong to say we -- so Phillip

Hammond is wrong to say that?

I

0:22:480:22:53

think he got slapped down by the

Prime Minister on that. It is not

0:22:530:22:55

Government policy.

In terms of the

no deal, do you have a deadline next

0:22:550:23:00

week if there is no movement, should

the Prime Minister walk away then?

0:23:000:23:05

The question of a deadline is

interesting. I understand if

0:23:050:23:08

European Union is saying within the

next 48 hours if this point is not

0:23:080:23:11

decided, maybe it will be decided

and we'll not have to worry about

0:23:110:23:15

that. The crunch time is spring next

year when we have to agree to the

0:23:150:23:21

principals of the free trade deal.

If we get to that stage and have not

0:23:210:23:25

made progress that is the point you

must give industry a year to

0:23:250:23:28

prepare. We cannot, as Vicky said

wait until 29th March, 2019, and

0:23:280:23:35

find it all chances. Cha -- all

collapses. It is a decision to be

0:23:350:23:39

made at a particular time. The

latest time you can make that

0:23:390:23:42

decision is the spring time of next

year.

Vicky Ford said it will be a

0:23:420:23:47

disaster. Threatening a no deal is a

disaster. Is she wrong?

Yes, she is

0:23:470:23:53

wrong on that. Clearly, the Prime

Minister has said a no deal is a

0:23:530:23:56

possibility. Is it better to do a

deal, a free trade deal? Of course.

0:23:560:24:01

If we weren't talking about Northern

Ireland now, but we were talking

0:24:010:24:05

about the free trade agreement, if

we had a free trade agreement the

0:24:050:24:09

border with Northern Ireland would

disappear.

Was it irresponsible of

0:24:090:24:13

the Government not to have briefed

the DUP with the wording of the

0:24:130:24:17

draft document to prevent them from

walking away?

I don't think that is

0:24:170:24:20

what happened. I think there was a

draft document provided by, drawn up

0:24:200:24:25

by the EU which was leaked. I think

in the Irish media. I don't think at

0:24:250:24:30

any time had the Prime Minister

agreed to that. At any time had

0:24:300:24:33

there been any discussions on the

text. So...

Should there have been?

0:24:330:24:38

If the Prime Minister wasn't going

to agree to it in the first place,

0:24:380:24:41

why discuss it?

In terms of the

words regulatory and alignment, what

0:24:410:24:46

do you think the solution is to the

Northern Ireland and Irish border?

A

0:24:460:24:51

free trade area. If we have a free

trade area, the problem disappears.

0:24:510:24:56

What about the Irish Government who

want to ensure they e they are going

0:24:560:25:01

to have the same customs and

regulations that exist now.

If you

0:25:010:25:04

talk about a no deal situation, what

would happen in Northern Ireland, we

0:25:040:25:09

could decide. We don't have to put

any duty on Gods -- on goods coming

0:25:090:25:17

over from the Irish border. I don't

think it is their position.

You

0:25:170:25:20

would be happy to see a hard border?

I think I said the opposite. The

0:25:200:25:29

only people who seem to talk about a

hard bored ser the European Union.

0:25:290:25:33

Ireland said they don't want to see

anything that could look like any

0:25:330:25:36

checks being made. They want to keep

it, the only way to do that is to

0:25:360:25:43

have the same customs and

regulations.

It is right you can

0:25:430:25:48

have a frictionless border. If we

are not imposing any duties or

0:25:480:25:52

tariffs there's no need to check

anything. It is a lot of argument

0:25:520:25:55

about nothing. There'll not be a

hard border in Northern Ireland,

0:25:550:25:58

whichever way you go, whether there

is agreement or there isn't. Whilst

0:25:580:26:02

the European Union are making this a

big issue I don't think in reality

0:26:020:26:06

it is.

What about the Brexit impact

assessment? Are you disappointed

0:26:060:26:12

David Davis has not provided those?

There aren't any. It would be absurd

0:26:120:26:17

to think the Government was doing

Brexit impact assessments across the

0:26:170:26:22

country on how many types of Brexit

could you get? The basic thing is

0:26:220:26:26

the Government knows what it wants

to do, it wants a free trade deal

0:26:260:26:29

with the European Union. If you call

them red lines, the Prime Minister

0:26:290:26:34

answered my question to yesterday.

They were called red lines.

They

0:26:340:26:39

were called pink, actually.

We can

argue about the colour. Do you think

0:26:390:26:42

the deadline will be met and there

will be movement on phase two?

I

0:26:420:26:48

don't think have a crystal ball.

What is vital in this is we make

0:26:480:26:52

sure that high standards are

enshrined. That rights for ordinary

0:26:520:26:58

people and their families are

enshrined.

How?

There is legislation

0:26:580:27:02

going through Parliament at the

moment, which is about bringing the

0:27:020:27:07

EU withdrawal bill. What is critical

in that bill is that things that

0:27:070:27:11

people and communities here enjoy

now because of their membership of

0:27:110:27:15

the EU, whether they wanted to leave

or remain, that those protections

0:27:150:27:20

are enshrined in law.

The Government

said they will be.

We will see what

0:27:200:27:24

happens next week on that. At the

moment we don't have agreement that

0:27:240:27:29

the charter of rights will be

enshrined in our statute. Leave the

0:27:290:27:34

UK or remain in it - that is by the

by. We need high standards and right

0:27:340:27:38

protections here. We can do that. It

has to be in black and white so it

0:27:380:27:43

can be...

Should the charter be

there in black and white?

Hours of

0:27:430:27:48

lawyers argue about this. On one

hand they said it has to be in the

0:27:480:27:53

bill... I agree we must have the

highest of standards. When we are an

0:27:530:27:59

independent nation we can strengthen

and increase those standards.

What

0:27:590:28:03

guarantees will be given. They say

sovereignty should have been given

0:28:030:28:08

to them as parliamentarians to see

which laws will be included and

0:28:080:28:11

which aren't.

What we are saying is

all the laws, all the EU laws are

0:28:110:28:17

going to be become effectively

British laws on the day we come out

0:28:170:28:21

so, there'll be no no, the day

before and day after we will have

0:28:210:28:24

the same standards.

There is one

exception, in this great copy and

0:28:240:28:30

paste job done, one thing has been

carved out, that is the European

0:28:300:28:35

charter of human rights. At the

moment there is an argument about

0:28:350:28:38

why that one piece of law has not

been included. Whether it is about

0:28:380:28:43

privacy, about having access to fair

insurance premiums or access to a

0:28:430:28:47

pension rights if you are a gay

couple - all these things derived

0:28:470:28:52

from European rights they should be

brought home. At the moment the

0:28:520:28:54

Government has not committed to

putting those rights in this bill.

I

0:28:540:29:00

have heard eminent lawyers tell us

this is what this bill does and the

0:29:000:29:03

Parliament should discuss this. At

the moment I am, the Government has

0:29:030:29:07

persuaded me they are right. If I am

persuaded the other way I will vote

0:29:070:29:11

for any amendment. I think that the

Government, I think all of

0:29:110:29:15

Parliament is agreed, we want to

bring in the same standards of

0:29:150:29:18

protection that we have now

afterwards. It is just the mechanism

0:29:180:29:22

for doing it.

0:29:220:29:23

The Conservative-led Government

introduced a requirement back

0:29:250:29:27

in 2010 for schools to use phonics

to teach children to read.

0:29:270:29:30

Children learn individual

sounds and then blend

0:29:300:29:32

those sounds together.

0:29:320:29:33

Yesterday, at Prime Minister's

Questions, Theresa May hailed

0:29:330:29:35

the reform as the driver

for dramatically increased reading

0:29:350:29:38

standards in England.

0:29:380:29:38

Let's have a listen.

0:29:380:29:43

Yesterday we learned

how the UK's revolution

0:29:430:29:45

in phonics has dramatically

improved school standards.

0:29:450:29:46

And I would like to pay particular

tribute to my right honourable

0:29:460:29:49

friend, the Minister

for Schools Standards who has worked

0:29:490:29:51

tirelessly to this end,

through his time here in this House,

0:29:510:30:02

but also pay tribute

to the hard work of teachers up

0:30:030:30:06

and down the country.

0:30:060:30:10

We have - and just for the figures,

in 2012, 58% of six-year-olds

0:30:100:30:14

passed reading checks.

0:30:140:30:15

This year that has risen to 81%.

0:30:150:30:16

We are indeed building

a Britain fit for the future.

0:30:160:30:23

I'm joined now by Mark Lehain,

a former head teacher and now

0:30:230:30:26

director of Parents and Teachers

for Excellence and Sandra McNally

0:30:260:30:29

from the LSE's Centre

for Economic Performance.

0:30:290:30:30

Welcome to both of you. So let us

talk about phonics. There were

0:30:300:30:36

147,000 more fluent reading

six-year-olds than in 2011, is that

0:30:360:30:40

something to celebrate?

Absolutely.

Mine it is great to see progress in

0:30:400:30:48

the polls reflecting improve.s in

standards. There is still some way

0:30:480:30:50

to go, and there is a lot of

children you leave school without

0:30:500:30:55

being at the expected standard. In

adult population, a very serious

0:30:550:30:59

issue with literacy.

Do you accept

that is down to phonics?

I would

0:30:590:31:04

they the Government reforms

introduced in 2006 actually did have

0:31:040:31:10

something to contribute to the

improvement we are seeing, our

0:31:100:31:16

research showed that it had, phone

nicks introduced in schools. Which

0:31:160:31:26

found an immediate impact at age

fivement it reduced at seven. By 11

0:31:260:31:31

people had caught up. So people do

learn to read eventually so we

0:31:310:31:35

shouldn't get too excited that

everything is down to phonics.

So is

0:31:350:31:40

it really this great sort of

revolutionary technique in teaching

0:31:400:31:43

children to read?

There is a number

of things I would say. First the big

0:31:430:31:49

change in 2010 because they made the

move from 2006 on wards, it would be

0:31:490:31:54

10 was Nick Gibbon put a rocket

booster on the approach to phonics.

0:31:540:32:00

Which seems to be by far and away

the best approach to teaching

0:32:000:32:03

children and I have four daughters

of my own, my oldest daughter was in

0:32:030:32:08

the first cohort, so we is been able

to see the impact on our own family

0:32:080:32:13

overnight-time.

Is that the

evidence? How do you now it is down

0:32:130:32:17

to phonics, if standard have

improved generally and teaching has

0:32:170:32:22

improved in many school, isn't that

more important than the system of

0:32:220:32:26

teaching people phonics because

everyone has learned to read in the

0:32:260:32:29

past.

I don't think any is saying it

is the focus on phonics itself but

0:32:290:32:35

it has encouraged more teachers to

put an emphasis on those things when

0:32:350:32:38

they get kids in the early years.

Although most children catch up by

0:32:380:32:48

11, I know children may turn up they

have missed out on being fluent

0:32:480:32:54

readers because they were late to

get there. When you think of the

0:32:540:32:57

books they could have been reading

they have missed out on and their

0:32:570:33:02

knowledge base and comprehension

generally

Have you got evidence to

0:33:020:33:05

show that phonics has made a

positive impact on children's

0:33:050:33:09

reading?

I mean there is different

types of phonics and lots, there is

0:33:090:33:16

some good evidence to suggest it has

an impact on reading and on later

0:33:160:33:20

outcomes. What isn't clear is what

kind of phonics is better than

0:33:200:33:25

other, I know there is lots of

debate in education research on

0:33:250:33:28

this, it is not as clear-cut and you

wouldn't want to be prioritising

0:33:280:33:33

phonics at the expense of lots of

other things.

Are you going for this

0:33:330:33:39

pure approach? The school that I

have been involved in, there was an

0:33:390:33:44

issue about spelling. The fact that

phonics made it difficult for some

0:33:440:33:48

children later on to be able to

spell correctly because they learned

0:33:480:33:52

it only by sound.

That is where

schools that have adopted systems

0:33:520:34:03

have improved. I think the real

exciting thing that has come out

0:34:030:34:08

this week in the data about upon

things is that the gains we have

0:34:080:34:12

seen is because boys have seen their

reading ability gone up by a lot,

0:34:120:34:17

but also lower attaining children,

that didn't do so well the past are

0:34:170:34:22

doing better, so more vulnerable

children are doing better and the

0:34:220:34:26

knock on impact is going to be

massive.

Do we teach children to

0:34:260:34:31

read too early? Are we pushing

children to read at a stage when

0:34:310:34:34

they are not ready and phonics is a

way doffing it more quickie.

Other

0:34:340:34:41

countries vary in when they lead

people into formal education, if you

0:34:410:34:46

look at some of the Scandinavian

countries they don't do formal

0:34:460:34:50

schooling until later. It is not

clear it has to be done at the

0:34:500:34:54

particular age, that we do it here,

but I, I don't have a strong view

0:34:540:34:58

about that really.

Mark, the former

Children's Laureate has criticised

0:34:580:35:07

for teaching children to read

allowed successfully but not with

0:35:070:35:12

enjoyment.

I think he is wrong. Mark

Rosen has that this view for years,

0:35:120:35:23

him and some left-wing activist said

it is going to push things back. It

0:35:230:35:26

isn't, but I know myself as a

teacher who has been on a journey in

0:35:260:35:31

terms of understanding what works

wand who done. It can take a long

0:35:310:35:34

time for people to change view, I

hope people will hopefully see the

0:35:340:35:40

light. He has done amazing thing,

fundamentally this is a success

0:35:400:35:48

story, an example of a series of

Governments having the nerve to push

0:35:480:35:51

through changes and of the teaching

profession, working really hard to

0:35:510:35:55

implement it effectively.

Thank you

both.

0:35:550:35:57

Thank you both.

0:35:570:35:58

The Electoral Commission has

announced this morning

0:35:580:36:00

that it is launching

an investigation in to Momentum -

0:36:000:36:02

the group set up to support

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

0:36:020:36:04

of the Labour Party.

0:36:040:36:05

The Commission is looking

into whether Momentum broke

0:36:050:36:07

election spending rules

in the General Election.

0:36:070:36:09

Let's get the latest

from Ellie Price who joins me now.

0:36:090:36:16

What have they done?

This is about

basically whether momentum have done

0:36:160:36:21

their accounting properly. To use a

technical jargon they are registered

0:36:210:36:28

non-party campaigner, but they took

part in a lot of the campaigning in

0:36:280:36:32

the recent general election, now

their accounts show that they spent

0:36:320:36:40

£38,000 across all four parts of the

United Kingdom and Northern Ireland,

0:36:400:36:44

the spending limit on such groups

like Momentum is 39,000. So they

0:36:440:36:51

came in short of that. The

electorate commission say because

0:36:510:36:55

they are so high profile any

question of their compliance could

0:36:550:37:00

risk causing harm to voters'

confidence. They say they want to

0:37:000:37:03

look, whether they have done their

accounting properly and whether they

0:37:030:37:08

put in things like receipts for

things that are more than £200.

0:37:080:37:16

With me now is Aaron Bastani,

founder of Novara Media

0:37:160:37:18

and a Momentum supporter.

0:37:180:37:23

Your group has admitted errors?

What

group? Momentum?

Sorry momentum.

0:37:230:37:29

That is probably likely. In terms of

how large the operation is, there

0:37:290:37:34

will be small administrative error,

my personal experience of momentum,

0:37:340:37:38

I wasn't relaying money to anybody

in the election, was they took

0:37:380:37:44

probity and the whole regulatory

framework round the lobbying act

0:37:440:37:48

seriously. But

But they said they

have committed error, so they

0:37:480:37:53

haven't kept the standards that are

necessary.

I hope that is treated

0:37:530:37:58

appropriately, I hope there is an

adequate response and it is not done

0:37:580:38:01

in future. The lobbying act which

was only past in 2014, I personally

0:38:010:38:07

think isn't really fit for purpose.

Why?

It is meant to basically

0:38:070:38:12

constrain spending by any

organisation in a 12 month period

0:38:120:38:16

prior to an election, when you have

a snaplike sthaun goes out of the

0:38:160:38:21

window.

You would say that because

Momentum has been caught making

0:38:210:38:27

error, do you think is important to

have rules on spending

Fiscal

0:38:270:38:33

probity is key to democracy.

You

have no problem with the Electoral

0:38:330:38:37

Commission.

No, it is an inherently

central crucial part.

Owen Jones who

0:38:370:38:47

is also a member of Momentum said

the electorate commission who let

0:38:470:38:51

the for es are off hook because they

can't believe Momentum did so well

0:38:510:38:57

on a show string budget. That sounds

like sour grapes to me.

What I would

0:38:570:39:02

say is that the reception of it in

some quarters will be political.

0:39:020:39:07

There is an instinctive shock,

think, for many people, even on the

0:39:070:39:11

left as well about just how much

Momentum did with so few resources.

0:39:110:39:17

You are sayingst same thing.

I

haven't seen the case.

You have just

0:39:170:39:22

said yourself that people can't

believe that people did so well. Are

0:39:220:39:26

you saying the Electoral Commission

as a result of that is pickingup on

0:39:260:39:29

add my opinion strative errors.

I

think it is plausible. They wouldn't

0:39:290:39:35

be doing their job if they didn't.

It is a shock they kid so much with

0:39:350:39:39

so little. Little. That was powered

by people not vested interests and

0:39:390:39:44

my personal view is the Electoral

Commission will find nothing. ? Do

0:39:440:39:48

you any it is part of an establish.

That can't believe how well they di?

0:39:480:39:53

It is more complex. I would like to

see the gagging act that has been

0:39:530:39:57

called completely changed under a

Labour Government.

0:39:570:40:02

It is a central part of the function

of democracy, I think the political

0:40:020:40:06

representative ception is more

important than anything the

0:40:060:40:10

Electoral Commission is doing.

You

accept it causes harm to voter

0:40:100:40:16

coughed?

Most won't know about it or

care less about it. That might be a

0:40:160:40:21

good or bad thing. We know in

matters surrounding spending the

0:40:210:40:26

public doesn't seem to take

particular interest, which is a bad

0:40:260:40:29

thing if you look at what happened

between the Ukip and Tories. Imseems

0:40:290:40:35

striking that the Tories bought

three by-elections.

You have your

0:40:350:40:39

attention on that?

I have seen the

specifics of that case. It seems

0:40:390:40:43

striking. I was surprised harsher

action wasn't taken

0:40:430:40:47

I was surprised harsher

action wasn't taken

0:40:470:40:49

The new Defence Secretary,

Gavin Williamson, has said that

0:40:490:40:51

British nationals who join so-called

Islamic State should not be

0:40:510:40:54

allowed to return to the UK

and that we should do all we can

0:40:540:40:57

to "eliminate" the threat they pose.

0:40:570:40:58

Despite that some jihadis have

returned to the UK and the issue

0:40:580:41:01

of how we treat them is the subject

of fierce debate.

0:41:010:41:04

The Labour MP John Woodcock has

suggested that the amount of time

0:41:040:41:07

allowed for pre-charge detention be

extended for those who've fought

0:41:070:41:09

abroad to allow security services

to build a case against them.

0:41:090:41:19

The first terror lawses were

introduced between 1974, and 1989.

0:41:210:41:28

Aimed attacking Northern Irish

related terrorism. Individuals could

0:41:280:41:32

be arrest without a warrant on

reasonable suspicion they were

0:41:320:41:36

involved in act of terrorism with an

initial period of 48-hours extended

0:41:360:41:41

to five day, that legislation was

updated in 2000. Among other

0:41:410:41:45

measures police were given the power

to detain people arrested for

0:41:450:41:49

terrorism offences, for seven days

without charge. Then, in the wake of

0:41:490:41:54

the 9/11 attack, the anti-terrorism

Crime and Security Act of 2001 was

0:41:540:41:58

introduced. It was seen as way of

internationalising the war on

0:41:580:42:02

terror. And allow inner the Home

Secretary to indefinitely detain

0:42:020:42:06

without charge or trial foreign

nationals who were suspected of

0:42:060:42:11

terrorism, though that was later

ruled unlawfulful

0:42:110:42:16

On the seventh July 2005, for

suicide bombers attacked Central

0:42:160:42:20

London. Killing 52 people and

injuring hundreds more. It was the

0:42:200:42:26

worst single tourist axxxx terrorist

atrocity on British soil. The

0:42:260:42:30

Government proposed plans for 90

days detention without charge of

0:42:300:42:34

terror suspects.

It was Tony Blair's first commons

0:42:340:42:43

defeat. Instead, the detention time

was limiteded to 28 days.

0:42:430:42:49

New Labour had another go in 2000,

proposing to put the limit up to 42

0:42:490:42:54

days. The then Shadow Home Secretary

David Davis resigned his seat to

0:42:540:43:00

fight a by-election on the

principles of British liberty, but

0:43:000:43:02

the plans were thrown out by the

Lords. In 2012, the coalition

0:43:020:43:08

Government and the then Home

Secretary changed the detention

0:43:080:43:12

limit back down to 14 day as the

protection of freedoms act. During

0:43:120:43:17

the election campaign and following

the Manchester and London Bridge

0:43:170:43:23

attacks she hinted that could change

When we have enough evidence to know

0:43:230:43:31

they are a threat, but not enough

evidence to prosecute them in full

0:43:310:43:35

in court.

And if... If our human rights laws

0:43:350:43:40

stop us from doing it we will change

the law so we can do it.

0:43:400:43:48

Jan, you have add indicateded an

increase to the current 28 day

0:43:480:43:52

maximum. Sorry 14 days with

precharge detention, what should the

0:43:520:43:56

limit be?

Well, I don't know, that

is something I think that the

0:43:560:44:03

Government should take immediate

detailed advise from the police and

0:44:030:44:06

security services about the

difficult diand how long it will

0:44:060:44:11

take to amass the evidence, against

these Brits who have gone over the

0:44:110:44:18

fight for Daesh, are already

returning to British shores, despite

0:44:180:44:23

what the Defence Secretary may say

in the press, and it will take some

0:44:230:44:28

time to amass that case.

So you

could be supportive of a move beyond

0:44:280:44:33

even 28 days.

Yes, of course I think

we need to be, we need to bring in

0:44:330:44:40

legislation, that will actually give

the authorities, the time to build

0:44:400:44:46

that case, because in the

overwhelming majority of cases

0:44:460:44:51

British men and women who go over

to, into that region, are not doing

0:44:510:44:58

so for appropriate reasons, there is

overwhelming suspicion they have

0:44:580:45:03

fought against British force,

against the British state, but, of

0:45:030:45:07

course our due process means we need

time to amass that case and be able

0:45:070:45:10

to put it in front of a judge.

0:45:100:45:15

Isn't it necessary when we face

hundreds coming back who have fought

0:45:150:45:19

in Syria?

No. It is not necessary. I

think it would be a really dangerous

0:45:190:45:23

move. Just to give you a sense of

the context, the UK currently can

0:45:230:45:28

detain people without charge for 14

days. That puts us out of step with

0:45:280:45:33

every other comparable democracy.

So, in France, even under the state

0:45:330:45:37

of emergency you can only detain

people for six days. In US, two

0:45:370:45:40

days. In Russia, only four days T

the Security Services and the police

0:45:400:45:51

are not suggesting they need more

time. There is just no evidence at

0:45:510:45:54

all to say that we need more time.

What is fundamental here is we are

0:45:540:45:59

playing fast and lose with the

values that this democracy is built

0:45:590:46:03

on. This is due process. This is

about saying people will be tried on

0:46:030:46:07

evidence before independent judges.

If you take people out of their

0:46:070:46:10

communities and you detain them for

days on end, on the say so of the

0:46:100:46:15

police or the Security Services, you

will deepen the divisions that this

0:46:150:46:18

society faces.

Where is your

evidence? There doesn't seem to be

0:46:180:46:23

anything to back up by the police

that they want more time?

We are in

0:46:230:46:28

a new situation. We have Daesh who

are collapsing in Syria, so many

0:46:280:46:34

hundreds of Brits who have gone over

are now either arriving back or will

0:46:340:46:39

in the coming months potential I

will be arriving back on these

0:46:390:46:42

shores. And that is what makes the

situation different to where we are

0:46:420:46:46

in the past.

Are there any examples

of the police who have an IS-related

0:46:460:46:52

suspect that they are or want to

charge, that they have actually

0:46:520:46:55

asked for longer than 14 days?

I

want to hear from the Home Secretary

0:46:550:46:59

whether that is a case. I raised it

with her in Parliament. During her

0:46:590:47:03

statement this week she said this

was worth considering and she would

0:47:030:47:06

come back to me and to the House on

this matter.

You accept at the

0:47:060:47:11

moment there isn't any evidence yet.

I wouldn't expect there to be as

0:47:110:47:16

such because we are in this in u

situation where Brits who have been,

0:47:160:47:21

often that I would have been held,

they would have gone over under this

0:47:210:47:26

brainwashed idea that they could go

and fight for the caliphate, many

0:47:260:47:32

who went there, found the situation

was horrendous, but were prevented

0:47:320:47:37

on the certainty of death at the

hands of Daesh from returning. Now

0:47:370:47:43

as Daesh collapses they are getting

the opportunity to flee. This

0:47:430:47:47

problem of people arriving back into

the UK, potentially being very

0:47:470:47:51

dangerous is a new situation.

Do you

accept it is a different threat? It

0:47:510:47:54

is a new threat and the authorities

are struggling to know how to deal

0:47:540:47:58

with it? We've had a minister, the

Defence Secretary, saying they

0:47:580:48:01

shouldn't come back at all,

British-born fighters who go out

0:48:010:48:05

there. They should be killed out in

the field - what do you say to that?

0:48:050:48:10

I think that is an extraordinary

position for a western democracy to

0:48:100:48:14

take. I accept of course there is a

threat. I am a Londoner. I get on

0:48:140:48:19

the tube every morning. I want good

security for me and my family and

0:48:190:48:23

everyone else in this country. We

don't have any evidence that the

0:48:230:48:26

police and the Security Services

need these extra powers.

Not yet.

If

0:48:260:48:30

there was, would you consider?

I

don't think the situation now has

0:48:300:48:35

radically changed. We talked about

Northern Ireland earlier. A policy

0:48:350:48:40

of internment is widely recognised

now to have deepened it by police

0:48:400:48:45

officers, by civil servants and

politicians. Coming on to Gavin

0:48:450:48:49

Williamson's point, the idea that

this country would advocate for

0:48:490:48:53

arbitrary killings abroad. We are a

country that disallows the death

0:48:530:48:56

penalty. We are a country that is

proud to say that we try people

0:48:560:49:00

before the law.

If they have fought

against their country, if they are

0:49:000:49:06

as people would see them traitors

and they are coming back with that

0:49:060:49:09

hateful ideology, what is arbitrary

about it?

So what you need to do, if

0:49:090:49:17

they are fighters and fighting, you

bring them back, you mount a case

0:49:170:49:22

against them and you try them and

lock them up for a long time.

We are

0:49:220:49:25

told it is difficult to get that

evidence from the field.

If what we

0:49:250:49:29

are saying is these people should be

taken out, killed in drone strikes

0:49:290:49:34

there must be, surely, more evidence

to justify killing than you would

0:49:340:49:37

ever need to justify just a charge

and a prosecution.

What about the

0:49:370:49:41

problem, if the evidence is

presented that justified in your

0:49:410:49:45

mind an increase to that 14-day

detention period, let's say 28 days

0:49:450:49:51

or beyond - what would that do to

community relations? What would it

0:49:510:49:55

do holding people while you mount a

case only to find that the evidence

0:49:550:49:58

is not there?

I think the

overwhelming majority are horrified

0:49:580:50:07

that some of their young people have

gone over to fight an ideology which

0:50:070:50:13

they, in every bit of every other

faith and none believe is abhorrent

0:50:130:50:18

to Islam and to British values.

Look

at internment - it didn't help the

0:50:180:50:23

situation, did it?

I think parallels

to Northern Ireland only go so far

0:50:230:50:29

on this. And actually I would hope

that communities right across

0:50:290:50:35

Britain will want to see the best

prospect of the British justice

0:50:350:50:42

system being enacted against these

people.

If powerful evidence is

0:50:420:50:45

brought from the Security Services

and the police to say we need more

0:50:450:50:48

time, will you support it?

No. At

some point we have to stand up for

0:50:480:50:53

our values. There may be a tradeoff.

This would not be British justice.

0:50:530:50:57

If you detain people for days and

days of on end that is arbitrary

0:50:570:51:03

detention on behalf of the state.

That is a slippery slope. We would

0:51:030:51:08

have to focus on refoe using the

police so they could do those

0:51:080:51:12

investigations more thoroughly in a

time period which now works.

And the

0:51:120:51:20

trade-off would be what? Increased

security risk to this country?

The

0:51:200:51:25

tradeoff is we stand by our freedom.

We stand by the values that

0:51:250:51:30

terrorists seek to destroy. At the

moment there is no suggestion we

0:51:300:51:33

need these arbitrary powers. We

would be very wrong to cane into

0:51:330:51:40

those that our adversaries do.

When

will you have a timescale?

I will

0:51:400:51:44

press the Home Secretary about that

this week and about, there is some

0:51:440:51:51

element of agreement. Of course I

believe it is appropriate that

0:51:510:51:57

British combatants on the field of

battle are appropriate target. But

0:51:570:52:00

the idea they would surrender,

become prisoners of war and then we

0:52:000:52:04

would execute them completely

disredwarding the again the very --

0:52:040:52:11

disregarding the Geneva Convention

puts our own troops at risk.

0:52:110:52:14

Time Magazine has awarded its Person

of the Year award not to a single

0:52:160:52:19

person but to a group of people it

has named the "Silence Breakers" -

0:52:190:52:23

the women and men who came forward

to talk about sexual

0:52:230:52:25

abuse and harassment.

0:52:250:52:27

The movement is most closely

associated with the #MeToo hashtag

0:52:270:52:34

It got people to speak about their

own abuses.

0:52:340:52:42

a host of other women and men

including journalist Jane Merrick

0:52:420:52:45

who spoke out about how

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon had

0:52:450:52:47

"lunged" at her in 2003,

leading to his resignation

0:52:470:52:50

from the Cabinet in November

and Labour activist and campaigner

0:52:500:52:53

Bex Bailey who revealed earlier this

year that she was raped at a party

0:52:530:52:57

event as a teenager,

but was discouraged

0:52:570:52:58

from reporting the assault.

0:52:580:53:03

Let's see what some of the people

had to say about the award.

0:53:060:53:09

. We can't all be sluts. We can't

all be asking for it.

This reality

0:53:090:53:16

might not have to be our reality any

more.

I felt this crushing sense of

0:53:160:53:21

powerfullessness. This is the time

to take my power back.

Sexual

0:53:210:53:27

harassment...

I felt it was my duty

for the women who are silent to be

0:53:270:53:32

brave.

It is OK to stand up for

yourself.

0:53:320:53:37

Appealing in court today...

People

forget there is a human behind this.

0:53:370:53:41

Someone who is very hurt and

wronged.

0:53:410:53:47

I always thought maybe things could

change for my daughter. I never

0:53:530:53:57

thought things could change for me.

0:53:570:54:02

And I'm joined now by journalist

Jane Merrick who is one

0:54:020:54:04

of the people who has been

recognised as Time Magazine's Person

0:54:040:54:07

of the Year award.

0:54:070:54:07

Welcome to the programme. How do you

feel? Congratulations.

I feel

0:54:080:54:13

incredibly proud to be on this list

of extraordinary women and men from

0:54:130:54:18

all parts of society. Not just the

prominent individuals we have heard

0:54:180:54:22

about. There is a strawberry picker

who was sexually harassed and hotel

0:54:220:54:28

workers it is all parts of society.

When you wrote the article about

0:54:280:54:34

your specific experience with

Michael Fallon when he lunge at you

0:54:340:54:38

in that lunch in 2003, did you have

any idea of the impact it would

0:54:380:54:42

have?

I didn't realise it would have

this impact. When you are caught up

0:54:420:54:46

in something like that you don't

realise. Obviously I was aware of

0:54:460:54:53

the Harvey Weinstein allegations

which hit a few weeks before. The

0:54:530:54:59

sequence of events the issues

involving Westminster were

0:54:590:55:04

triflelised.

0:55:040:55:14

D

You felt nothing would be done

about sexual harassment, an abuse of

0:55:140:55:18

power here?

Michael Fallon had been

identified. He was involved with a

0:55:180:55:22

story touching a knee and it was

dealt with in her own way. But he

0:55:220:55:26

was saying that was sort of, it was

a long time ago and that was the

0:55:260:55:30

kind of thing that happened. I knew

what had happened to me was not

0:55:300:55:33

acceptable at the time and it was

not acceptable then. I was aware of

0:55:330:55:39

other allegations involving women

who could not speak out. That is why

0:55:390:55:42

I went public.

Why didn't you

before?

It is an interesting

0:55:420:55:47

question I have had to answer myself

and why when I was 29 didn't I

0:55:470:55:51

report to the whips or to the

newspaper I worked. I go to the

0:55:510:55:56

heart of this problem, I was scared

of being blacklisted by the

0:55:560:56:01

Conservative Party, that no Tory MP

would want to go out for lunch and

0:56:010:56:04

reprisals. When I was reporting

Michael Fallon to Downing Street I

0:56:040:56:09

was still worried about being

untrustworthy, somehow.

Have there

0:56:090:56:15

been reprisals? Has there been a

back lash at all?

Not something I

0:56:150:56:21

can put my finger on. There has been

a bit of criticism on twitter, but

0:56:210:56:31

broadly supportive.

Do you think

there is and more should be made of

0:56:310:56:34

the fact there is a difference

between what you might call clumsy

0:56:340:56:38

flirting - what you might call

inappropriate behaviour and sexual

0:56:380:56:48

harassment and them all lumped

together?

We are not aKuwaiting that

0:56:480:56:52

type of behaviour. We are not

equating what happened to me with

0:56:520:57:01

Bex Bailey

This was unacceptable.

This was not flirting. This was not

0:57:010:57:08

making a pass. He crossed the line.

People realise that. The rules of

0:57:080:57:13

flirting have not changed. The rules

of how we tolerate it have. Do you

0:57:130:57:23

think something will be done?

It is

great to have this. Times Person of

0:57:230:57:29

the Year, I don't want it to be just

about 2017, I don't want it to be

0:57:290:57:34

just the story of 2017, something

has to change. If we, I am very

0:57:340:57:37

lucky to have this platform to be

able to talk about it. We have to

0:57:370:57:40

carry on talking about it and making

sure that a culture will change.

0:57:400:57:44

That is the only way we will make a

difference, not for me and the

0:57:440:57:47

people on the list, but for women

who cannot speak out, for women who

0:57:470:57:52

are being harassed.

0:57:520:57:53

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:57:550:57:58

Yesterday Stanley Johnson,

father of Boris, was booted out

0:57:580:58:01

of the Jungle in I'm a Celebrity.

0:58:010:58:02

He said he was looking forward

to checking his emails,

0:58:020:58:05

but what did he want to find out?

0:58:050:58:07

Was it: a) If England

were winning the Ashes?

0:58:070:58:09

B) If his son, Boris,

was still Foreign Secretary?

0:58:090:58:11

C) If Donald Trump had

abandoned Twitter?

0:58:110:58:13

Or d) If he was getting an invite

to the Royal wedding next year?

0:58:130:58:17

I think it was whether Boris has

kept his job. Let's have a look.

0:58:190:58:25

What are you looking

forward to, now you're out?

0:58:270:58:29

I'm absolutely looking

forward to my e-mails.

0:58:290:58:31

Are you really?

0:58:310:58:31

Isn't that pathetic?

0:58:310:58:33

I want to know what's been happening

in the great outside.

0:58:330:58:35

It's been very very quiet.

0:58:350:58:36

I want to know if Boris is still

Foreign Secretary, for example.

0:58:360:58:39

I mean, I want to know that.

0:58:390:58:41

I am sure he is, he's

doing a fantastic job.

0:58:410:58:46

That's all for today.

0:58:460:58:47

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:470:58:50

The One o'clock News is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:500:58:57

Andrew will be back tonight with

This Week.

0:58:570:59:00

Goodbye.

0:59:000:59:02

Jo Coburn is joined by Martha Spurrier, the director of the human rights organisation Liberty. They discuss the latest on the Brexit negotiations, whether detention periods for Britons returning from fighting in Syria should be extended and speak to the journalist Jane Merrick, who is amongst the group of women named Time magazine's Person of the Year.