14/12/2017 Daily Politics


14/12/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by the former Labour MP and now chair of Change Britain, Gisela Stuart. They look at the government's defeat in the Commons over the Brexit bill.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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The Ayes to the right 309, the nose

to the left, 205.

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Theresa May suffers her

first commons defeat

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on the EU Withdrawal Bill.

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But what does the vote mean

and does is imperil Brexit?

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The Prime Minister is on her way

to Brussels to seal the deal

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she made last week which should

allow the UK to move

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on to trade talks.

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But how damaged is her authority

after last night's vote?

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He was the man who stabbed

Boris Johnson in the front

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year's leadership contest -

but is Michael Gove,

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perhaps the most ruthless man

in British Politics, undergoing

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a David Cameron style makeover?

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And Jeremy Corbyn was awarded

a peace prize last Friday -

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so why have the mainstream media not

reported the Labour leader's

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accolade?

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today,

Gisela Stuart.

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And we don't want to be accused

of censoring this former MP's

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numerous accolades.

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She has been awarded

a Bachelor of Law degree

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from the University of London,

a business studies qualification

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from Manchester Polytechnic,

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and is

a former co-chair of Vote Leave.

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But she didn't, I'm afraid -

according to Wikipedia at least -

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complete her PhD.

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Never mind - you are still

welcome on the programme.

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I put it into law, I did not have

to!

You are welcome on the

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programme.

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So it was a bruising night

for the Government last night.

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The Prime Minister's

authority diminished,

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certainly, but what does it

all mean for Brexit?

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Last night's dramatic defeat

for Theresa May saw 11

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Conservative MPs vote

against their government in support

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of Dominic Grieve's amendment,

Labour whipped its MPs to vote

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in favour of the amendment too

and only two of their MPs

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voted with the government

against the amendment.

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The government ended up losing

by 309 votes to 305.

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However, the bill still has a number

of stages to pass in Parliament

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and the government could attempt

to overturn the amendment

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when it has its report

stage on January 16th.

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The amendment forms part of the EU

Withdrawal Bill which ends

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the supremacy of EU law and copies

all existing EU law into UK law.

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If it stands, the change to the bill

means that Parliament is now

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guaranteed what the rebels have

called "meaningful vote"

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on the Brexit deal.

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The government

negotiates with the EU,

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so if they reject it,

Theresa May could either ask the EU

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for more time to negotiate,

or allow Britain to leave

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the EU without any deal.

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The rebel MPs' hope is

that the amendment will concentrate

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the minds of Theresa May

and Brexit Secretary David Davis,

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who will now have to be more mindful

of Parliament's views

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when they negotiate the deal.

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Let's talk to the BBC's political

editor, Laura Kuenssberg,

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who's in Brussels.

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Laura, hello. It was a big moment

last night as the opposition parties

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cheered, along with the rebels.

Theresa May defeated on her own

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terms over Brexit, but materially,

what has changed over Brexit?

You

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are right. It was a huge moment last

night, and as MPs were cramming back

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for the results, there was a message

that the government had one. They

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thought the rebels had not succeeded

and with all their work with the

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opposition parties that they had not

managed to beat Theresa May. But

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when the tellers arrived, they did a

little shuffle in the chamber and

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the opposition benches erupted into

cheers and they had done what they

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wanted and for the first time had

beaten Theresa May on her own

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business in the Commons. In terms of

what it means, nobody is sure

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technically. First of all, when you

talk to the rebels about what they

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want, there is a spectrum of

opinion. And then with line by line

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on the Brexit deal, others see it as

a surprise. Do they want a vote that

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could sink the deal and sink the

government, and I think in the last

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few weeks they have not always given

the fullest answers to what they are

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trying to achieve. The reason for

that is inside the coalition the

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rebels alliance as it has become

known, somewhat quite different

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things.

Does it we can Theresa May's

hand in the negotiations in Brussels

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where you are?

It will be

embarrassed and for her to turn up

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here this morning having been beaten

by her inside. It is not as bad as

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the summit when she turned up having

thrown away her majority in the last

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election result. Here in Brussels

since the election, they have been

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worried about whether or not Theresa

May can last. Can they trust what

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she tells them she will be able to

do when they sit with her in the

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privacy of their leaders

conversations? But I think while

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this has been a big drama, no

question, it has not necessarily

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been a big disaster. We're not here

at the beginning of months and

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months of defeat after defeat, but

certainly, there is a question, will

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Theresa May have to think a bit more

about come to my thing before

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pushing things to a vote which might

end in defeat. Let's talk about the

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Labour Brexiteers.

There are some

who think that those in the Labour

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Party who support Brexit and had

always supported Brexit, had voted

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with the government in large

numbers, then Theresa May would not

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have been defeated. Why in the end

did they vote with their party?

I

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understand that MPs like Gisela

Stuart who is with you today, work

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seriously ringing around other

Labour Brexiteers persuading them to

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stay onside. The number of votes in

that which is normally nine or ten

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went down to two or three. You're

right, if they had stuck with

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project Brexit and voted with the

government then Theresa May would

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not have lost. But I think given it

is clear for a while but numbers are

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so tight, then frankly the

temptation of beating the government

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was more important to some MPs like

Dennis Kimetto, than it was too

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trying to stay shackled to the

Brexit legislation. -- Dennis

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Skinner. But the movement will be

important in the next couple of

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weeks. What will happen about the

Brexit date next week? So the naked

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power plays between the two parties,

do they trump with ease on Brexit?

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Last week we saw the house voting on

Brexit lines rather than party lines

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and that is something that may

solidify. But other people say does

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not make a big difference, it does

not add up to much more than a hill

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of beans. Frankly, we do not know

yet.

Thank you, Laura Kuenssberg.

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So, you were ringing round Labour

Brexiteers, why did you do that?

I

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confess to handful of texts rather

than ringing round. Party loyalty,

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you are Labour MP and you get the

chance of defeating a Tory

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government and I think that is the

tribalism of our party affiliation.

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Were you disappointed that they did

not vote for Brexit?

I think just

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that amendment I would have voted

with the government on that one, but

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two of them did. Others held their

powder. The key thing is that

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legislation is required in order to

allow us to exit properly and what

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last night did made that process a

little more complicated.

White?

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Because there will be debates on

this article nine, the statutory

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powers which according to a vote you

need the primary one before the

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secondary one. Then you have not

only Article 50, the clear

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commitment that we are leaving, but

then you have a commission which is

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coming. The key thing for me to say

is to all my colleagues, and

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remember the referendum mandate was

that we are leaving, you're quite

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right to have parliamentary

scrutiny, but now remain true to

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your word which is you have accept

it that are leaving and you just

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want to propose it rather than make

it a vehicle of stopping Brexit

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altogether.

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The vote came at about quarter past

seven last night after several

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hours of heated debate

in the Common's chamber.

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Let's just get a flavour

of those exchanges.

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Parliament has to be able

to have a say in this process

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and we should trust parliament to be

mature and be responsible.

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There are a lot of members

opposite who said, actually,

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if we let Parliament have a vote

on Article 50 the sky's

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going fall in.

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If the treaty isn't right

in the eyes of this Parliament then

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a couple of months could turn

into a couple of years

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and indeed in some cases some

people would like it to be

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a couple of decades.

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And when she talks therefore

for about a meaningful vote,

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what about the meaningful vote

of the people of this

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country who last June voted

to leave the European Union?

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It's not a question I may say

to my desperately paranoid

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Eurosceptic friends,

that somehow I am trying in some

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surreptitious Remainer way to put

a spoke in the wheels of the fast

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progress of the United Kingdom

towards the destination

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to which we are going.

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When he says that Leavers didn't

know what they were voting for,

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he does risk sounding very

condescending because we knew

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exactly what we were voting for.

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The problem with my right honourable

and learned friends amendment

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is that it could be and no doubt

is designed to be used

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to try to overturn and frustrate

that meaningful vote.

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Continue the discussions.

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This is...

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Will the honourable

gentleman give way?

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I keep - no I'm not

going to give way.

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Give way.

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I keep hearing my right

honourable friend saying,

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it's too late, it's too late,

it's too late.

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I have never said...

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Point of order.

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I've heard you say that.

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There is a time for everybody

to stand up and be counted,

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as Churchill said, he's a good party

man, he puts the party before

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himself and the country

before his party and that's

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what I intend to do.

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CHEERING.

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I think we all want

to hear the result!

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The ayes to the right, 309.

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The noes to the left, 305.

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CHEERING

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We're joined now by one of those

Conservative MPs who helped defeat

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the Government last night,

Jonathan Djanogly.

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Are you proud of yourself, of what

you have done?

I think we did the

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right thing. Looking at those

snippets, where there is a lot of

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heat being generated, this was not

about defeating the government.

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Well, it was, you defeated the

government.

It was not about

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undermining the Prime Minister's

negotiations? It was not about

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stopping my hindering the Brexit

process, which the vast majority of

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people want to see happen. What this

was about was saying that in some

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cases parliamentary sovereignty must

be respected. When we look at these

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Henry VIII powers, which give a huge

power to government, to basically do

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whatever they want, but actually,

before those are used, there must be

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a vote in the House of Commons on a

bill which will look at the terms on

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which we leave. This by the way is

the biggest decision we have taken

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since the war. Parliament should

look at these issues?

There were a

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series of assurances given by

ministers and some last-minute

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concessions over the issue of a

meaningful vote on Parliament. Do

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you not trust your own government

and Theresa May an David Davis to do

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the right thing?

I think one of the

things to come out of this process,

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because I gave my intentions to the

government about three months ago,

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one of the things that has come out

is that the government does need to

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engage in a more concerted and

meaningful way than it has been

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doing. Again I say this is not about

stopping Brexit. It is about looking

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at our Constitution. It is about

looking at when ultimately powers

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are patridge from the European

Parliament of UK Parliament, they

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are not done in a way which

undermines our Constitution, it is

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about strengthening our

Constitution.

De think you have been

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ignored by the government?

I think

collectively voices have been

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ignored. Votes yesterday were not

indicative of the upset in the

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party. You will find people who were

Remainers, people who were extreme

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Brexiteers attacking clause nine and

these Henry VIII powers and saying

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that in some cases that it should be

scrapped altogether at report stage.

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And I do hope, and the reason for

that is because the government have

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agreed to bring forward another bill

where they probably will not need

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these powers. I think we need to

stand back, left a bit of the heat

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go out and have a bit of discussion

about the implications and how we

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will go forward.

Let's have a look

at the front page of today's's Daily

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Mail. You are there with your

co-rebels, as I'm sure you have

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noticed, with the comment, proud of

yourselves? Are you innocent or

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guilty of betrayal?

There is a lot

of heat at the moment. I don't think

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we are guilty of betrayal at all. We

are going through a process. This is

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the committee stage of the bill. We

still have the report stage, then it

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goes to the Lords. I would like to

see the government engage some more.

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But having a look at the Daily Mail

front page, this is the first time I

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have rebelled in 17 years.

Have you

just helped the opposition?

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No way whatsoever, icons lamented

the Prime Minister and David Davis

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on the remarkable achievement of

their phase one negotiations and

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they have a good platform going into

phase two. Let me turn this around,

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let's just say, we had not amended

the bill, the government came back

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with an option that would basically

keep us in the customs union and the

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single market, keep freedom of

movement and then lacked all those

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things through rather than taking it

to Parliament? I don't think Gisela

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would be very happy. Parliament must

have a say.

Why did you read the

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desk? -- retweet this?

I just

thought it was hilarious, somebody

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taking an aggressive front page and

making it a joke. Amongst all of the

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seriousness and you can see I do

take this very seriously we must

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also stay a little light-hearted and

I thought it captured the moment.

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And it is almost Christmas. Do you

agree that you would have been very

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upset if there had been an attempt

which Parliament was not able to

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stop the keep Britain in the single

market and the customs union in

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perpetuity?

In that case we would

not have left the European Union.

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Can I disaggregated two arguments,

there is no different level of

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legislation and it's a sequence of

problems, getting the deal and

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getting it approved. Then the Henry

VIII powers. The amount of Henry

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VIII powers in the 1972 European act

are infinitely greater and I thought

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the proposals of sifting out and

taking it step-by-step would be

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bringing back a whole lot of stuff

which we have forgotten how to

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legislate on, the environment,

agriculture, we have not debated on.

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I always thought Parliament would

find a way of having a vote.

Do you

0:17:100:17:15

think Jonathan is trying to thwart

Brexit?

This is the test, they say

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they do not. One of my Labour

colleagues in the Lords said on

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Twitter this is the first step for

stopping Brexit and referred to it

0:17:260:17:30

as the national betrayal bill. That

means the nice I hear from the House

0:17:300:17:34

of Lords are not very good. My

challenge to you is that you now

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have two sure you are as good as

your word.

I cannot talk for a

0:17:380:17:42

Labour peer but what I can say for

my own point of view is that I

0:17:420:17:47

accepted the referendum result. It's

a question of leaving the European

0:17:470:17:50

Union but in a way that does not

destroy our own Constitution. I

0:17:500:17:53

think the nub of this is are we

really going to repatriate powers

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from the European Union in a way

that gives those powers to the

0:17:590:18:03

executive and cut out Parliament?

Was that were people voted for who

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wanted to leave the European Union?

I don't think so.

Why has the wood

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have you been called Brexit in name

only?

I deny it, it is ridiculous.

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My personal position is I would like

us to remain within the single

0:18:230:18:30

market and possibly the customs

union but I do not want to fetter

0:18:300:18:33

the hand of the Prime Minister. She

has to go out there, strike a fair

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deal and there will be negotiation

and discussion and give and take and

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I don't want to fit her hand in any

way and I think she has done very

0:18:410:18:44

well.

Do you trust that?

If you

would like the country to remain in

0:18:440:18:51

the single market then we have lost

control of our borders, the European

0:18:510:18:56

Court of Justice. Of supremacy so

then we have not left the European

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Union.

We will have, Norway is not a

member of the European Union that

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are a member of the single market.

During the referendum campaign there

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were many people on the Brexit side

who were arguing let's get out of

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the EU and just trade with Europe,

stay in the single market. That's a

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consistent argument.

So you would

accept the supremacy of the European

0:19:170:19:21

Court of Justice, automatic

supremacy plus a free movement of

0:19:210:19:27

Labour? Norway does not do that.

But

it does take rules from the European

0:19:270:19:31

Court of Justice.

They have a

separate court.

What about freedom

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of movement? Rowe again, without

Switzerland, they took freedom of

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movement and it's an issue.

If that

is your idea of Brexit it is not an

0:19:430:19:54

idea shared by millions of people

who voted because they thought we

0:19:540:19:57

would put an end to it.

Can I add

one aspect of freedom of movement?

0:19:570:20:02

The idea of leaving the customs

union is we can strike deals with

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third-party countries. India,

Australia, New Zealand have already

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indicated they want to strike free

trade agreement with us. The number

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one agenda item for them is a UK

visas. So this idea that we leave

0:20:140:20:21

the EU, we are not part of the

single market, and we somehow don't

0:20:210:20:25

have an immigration issue any more

is simply untrue.

You are

0:20:250:20:30

misrepresenting this, the issue was

that within the European Union you

0:20:300:20:34

have got virtually half of our net

migration automatic, what we are

0:20:340:20:40

arguing is this Parliament decides

what the entire immigration policy

0:20:400:20:44

is.

I have to stop and ask, will you

vote against the motion to write the

0:20:440:20:49

date of departure on the bill next

week?

The debate and that has

0:20:490:20:54

happened and I spoke against it and

I expect the government to make at

0:20:540:20:57

concession on that.

Should they just

drop that?

Well, the real date is

0:20:570:21:05

the end of Parliament so I think

there already is an end so I'll

0:21:050:21:09

leave that to party management.

We

are just about to strike a deal

0:21:090:21:14

three days before the date and we

need a few more days, we should have

0:21:140:21:19

that flexibility.

They always strike

a deal at two minutes to midnight,

0:21:190:21:23

whenever midnight is.

But you are

going to stick to your guns?

I will

0:21:230:21:29

see how it develops. There are some

20 issues we have been debating and

0:21:290:21:34

only one rebellion so far. I am

hopeful we will have a good

0:21:340:21:37

resolution on the date.

Was it

reasonable for the government to

0:21:370:21:41

sack Stephen Hammond?

That is a

matter for the government.

0:21:410:21:46

Now it's time for our daily quiz.

0:21:460:21:48

And the question for today is -

according to Facebook,

0:21:480:21:50

what did an organisation with links

to the Russian government

0:21:500:21:53

spend just 73p promoting,

according to Facebook?

0:21:530:21:54

Was it the American Election?

0:21:540:21:55

Brexit?

0:21:550:21:56

This year's general election?

0:21:560:21:57

Or Vodka?

0:21:570:21:59

At the end of the show Gisela

will hopefully give us

0:21:590:22:01

the correct answer.

0:22:010:22:05

As usual

0:22:050:22:06

Now - he was described as having

stabbed his rival for the Tory party

0:22:100:22:14

leadership "in the front".

0:22:140:22:15

When Michael Gove decided to stand

against fellow Brexiteer,

0:22:150:22:17

Boris Johnson, last year,

prompting Mr Johnson

0:22:170:22:19

to abort his bid for the top job,

he cemented his reputation

0:22:190:22:21

as the most ruthless

politician in Westminster.

0:22:210:22:23

But has a new softer, gentler -

well - more cuddly side

0:22:230:22:26

to Michael Gove emerged

in recent months?

0:22:260:22:28

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

0:22:280:22:36

From political assassin to pop

cuddler, it's quite a

0:22:360:22:40

transformation. In the aftermath of

the EU referendum, having squashed

0:22:400:22:45

the hopes and dreams of Boris

Johnson Michael Gove had become a

0:22:450:22:49

felon of almost pantomime

proportions.

You brought down David

0:22:490:22:53

Cameron menu brought down Boris

Johnson, some people are saying you

0:22:530:22:56

are a political serial killer.

Against the odds he is back,

0:22:560:23:02

installed and championing all things

bright and beautiful, all creatures

0:23:020:23:05

great and small. A tactic borrowed

perhaps from an old friend.

This

0:23:050:23:12

idea of green credentials are

something from the David Cameron

0:23:120:23:14

playbook, it is what they did when

they were in opposition and David

0:23:140:23:19

Cameron was trying to find a way to

show his party was modernising, they

0:23:190:23:23

had a slow kill in the local council

elections which is vote blue, go

0:23:230:23:27

green. He seems genuinely happy and

part of that is back in Cabinet and

0:23:270:23:33

he has a remarkable change in

fortunes if you think back to the EU

0:23:330:23:37

referendum.

And it seems there is no

issue too big or too small, in

0:23:370:23:42

recent months the Environment

Secretary have raided in rows over

0:23:420:23:45

tree felling in Sheffield, supported

introducing beavers, and legislated

0:23:450:23:50

to protect elephants and it's not

going unnoticed. Michael Gove, we

0:23:500:23:55

have seen a firework display of

activity. The comeback is quite

0:23:550:23:59

staggering.

I year ago he was

reviled as a traitor and now here is

0:23:590:24:09

as Environment Secretary showing the

wider world that conservatives do

0:24:090:24:13

actually care about the environment

and doing it with tremendous brio

0:24:130:24:18

and winning plaudits from all sorts

of environmentalists. It's quite

0:24:180:24:21

staggering. It has occurred partly

because within the Cabinet there are

0:24:210:24:28

very few rivals for attention.

In a

Parliament is set by Brexit wars

0:24:280:24:34

fellow Conservative MPs seem to have

jumped on board the charm offensive.

0:24:340:24:38

This week even managing to

coordinate their social media

0:24:380:24:42

reactions to the BBC programme blue

planet. Divided by almost everything

0:24:420:24:46

else, Michael Gove seems to have hit

on something the British public

0:24:460:24:49

really can unite on.

0:24:490:24:51

We're joined now by the Green

Party's Jonathan Bartley

0:24:510:24:53

and the Conservative MP,

Henry Smith of the Conservative

0:24:530:24:56

Animal Welfare Foundation.

0:24:560:24:59

Welcome to both of you, Jonathan

Bartley, are you pleased by Michael

0:24:590:25:04

Gove's support for all things

environmental?

Credit where it is

0:25:040:25:09

due, under no illusions it's a

rebrand, what they have done on

0:25:090:25:13

plastics, the consultation over tax

on micro beads, phasing out coal

0:25:130:25:18

power by hopefully 2025, these are

steps, going from a two out of ten

0:25:180:25:23

to four out of ten.

Do you think it

is genuine?

I don't think you can

0:25:230:25:28

take it as genuine when there is so

much lacking around climate change

0:25:280:25:31

which is the big issue. The biggest

threat to the sea is climate change.

0:25:310:25:35

Clean growth plan should have been a

green print for the future and was a

0:25:350:25:41

blueprint for underachievement. It

will miss out on the fourth and

0:25:410:25:45

fifth carbon budgets, still

investment in fracking, no action to

0:25:450:25:48

tackle airport expansion and the

frequent flyers. This is a massive

0:25:480:25:54

hole in the government agenda.

When

it comes to Michael Gove when did

0:25:540:26:00

the conversion happen?

We are seeing

tangible measures coming forward in

0:26:000:26:05

terms of policies, there is a new

animal welfare Bill which was

0:26:050:26:08

announced the other day which will

increase sentences for cruelty up to

0:26:080:26:13

five years. Jonathan has already

been talking about the banning

0:26:130:26:17

plastic micro beads to help save the

ocean environment. The introduction

0:26:170:26:23

of CCTV into slaughter houses to

increase welfare is something I

0:26:230:26:27

raised in Parliament a couple of

years ago and I am pleased to see

0:26:270:26:30

that as well. Recognising sentience

in UK law which is stronger than the

0:26:300:26:36

Article 13 of the...

The government

ran into trouble over that, is it

0:26:360:26:42

that which is made ministers set up

and think we need to at least

0:26:420:26:45

appear, if not believe in things

which are environmentally important

0:26:450:26:51

to the public?

I have been a

co-chair of the all-party

0:26:510:26:56

parliamentary animal welfare group

for many years and I know many of

0:26:560:26:59

these policies have been in train

for some time. Maybe the

0:26:590:27:03

presentation has improved in recent

months and I think that is necessary

0:27:030:27:06

but these are real, tangible

policies which are coming through. I

0:27:060:27:11

think we have seen more advancement

in some environmental and animal

0:27:110:27:14

protection policies in the last few

months than we have seen in many

0:27:140:27:17

years previously.

Do not forget that

was a U-turn from the government

0:27:170:27:22

because of what Caroline Lucas dead

on sentience. This is about public

0:27:220:27:27

pressure, public pressure has been

building for years, great NGO's

0:27:270:27:31

doing great work. The government,

these issues have been going up and

0:27:310:27:38

up the agenda and they know they

have to respond.

But at the same

0:27:380:27:42

time do you except there have been

tangible changes and improvements to

0:27:420:27:46

things like animal welfare?

It does

seem they are heading in the right

0:27:460:27:49

direction but if you do not tackle

climate change our oceans will be

0:27:490:27:54

devastated, the coral reefs

destroyed so the big question is not

0:27:540:27:58

being addressed. It's like putting a

broken arm in a sling but not

0:27:580:28:02

putting a cast on it.

What about

when it comes to climate change, is

0:28:020:28:06

it just rhetoric if a long-term

targets in cutting carbon emissions

0:28:060:28:11

will not be reached?

Already this

government is absolutely committed

0:28:110:28:17

to the Paris agreement. The other

day already the Prime Minister was

0:28:170:28:19

in France to restate the importance

of this country playing its part in

0:28:190:28:28

ensuring carbon emissions are

reduced and on sentience...

The

0:28:280:28:34

clean growth plan will not hit, even

in the government plan which is

0:28:340:28:37

supposed to be legally binding to

meet those targets, the plan says it

0:28:370:28:41

will not hit the fourth and fit

budgets.

I think this country is

0:28:410:28:48

leading...

But you except it will

fail?

I do not... We are heading

0:28:480:28:55

very much in the right direction.

There are huge challenges ahead but

0:28:550:28:59

I think we have a real determination

and I just wanted to come back on

0:28:590:29:03

sentience. Let's be careful about

what the Lisbon Treaty said on

0:29:030:29:08

sentience, it only applied to EU law

and the new animal welfare bill

0:29:080:29:11

coming in will apply to all UK law

across the board. And of course the

0:29:110:29:17

EU Charter on animal sentience

allowed bull-fighting, foie gras

0:29:170:29:22

production, the single market means

we cannot ban the live export of

0:29:220:29:26

animals for slaughter or the

importation of cruel products. Once

0:29:260:29:33

we leave the single market, which I

believe we should be doing, we will

0:29:330:29:37

increase and will wear her

standards.

Do you believe that? This

0:29:370:29:43

idea there are practices which are

forced onto the UK by the European

0:29:430:29:47

Union when it comes to animal

welfare will be improved in

0:29:470:29:51

post-Brexit Britain?

By the

governments own admission we will

0:29:510:29:54

lose about a third of the

environmental regulations.

We will

0:29:540:30:02

go further and will be free to do

that.

The government is failing on

0:30:020:30:06

such of the big issue is how can we

have confidence on the small issues?

0:30:060:30:10

It is not failing at the moment when

you cut carbon emissions, it is true

0:30:100:30:14

if you look further into the future

they will not hurt those targets...

0:30:140:30:18

It is getting a whole new industry

up and running, overriding local

0:30:180:30:23

communities over fracking, it has

just produced £2.3 billion by the

0:30:230:30:26

Chancellor 's own admission to

invest in North Sea oil and is not

0:30:260:30:30

investing in home insulation which

could cut through puberty. It goes

0:30:300:30:33

on and on.

0:30:330:30:34

You worked with Michael Gove and you

know him, do you believe this

0:30:390:30:44

commitment to protecting the

environment is genuine?

I do. I

0:30:440:30:48

think what is telling is he is

showing what is in his department,

0:30:480:30:53

where he has a say as his Cabinet

post, that Brexit does not need to

0:30:530:30:59

paralyse government. Secretaries of

state can actually start to use

0:30:590:31:03

those newly gained powers, and the

suggestion is that with some of the

0:31:030:31:11

cosmetic testing, he is showing you

can make things better.

Because he

0:31:110:31:17

is now deemed as a ruthless

politician, do you think he's the

0:31:170:31:21

man to push it? Do you think he is

as ruthless as portrayed?

As

0:31:210:31:26

politician to politician, this is

about power and making decisions. He

0:31:260:31:31

is exercising his Cabinet post in an

area where we can end up with new

0:31:310:31:34

legislation, with the new freedom

effectively.

Is it to be trusted --

0:31:340:31:40

is he to be trusted?

He is getting

things done.

He's getting things

0:31:400:31:45

done and I have worked with him for

many years on the campaign trail.

0:31:450:31:50

This government has to be dragged

kicking and screaming through the

0:31:500:31:55

courts to deal with the basic stuff

which will affect our population.

0:31:550:32:01

Airplay and related -- air pollution

related deaths or in the thousands.

0:32:010:32:11

In this government, as it is getting

new powers on animal welfare he is

0:32:110:32:19

making those changes. That should

not stop other Cabinet ministers to

0:32:190:32:22

do the same but on this narrow

question, are we using those newly

0:32:220:32:27

gained powers to have better

standards than before?

We need

0:32:270:32:34

international cooperation. It has

never been so important.

Of course

0:32:340:32:38

there needs to be international

cooperation but it also takes

0:32:380:32:41

responsible countries to lead and

show the way and I think the way the

0:32:410:32:45

United Kingdom can do it better...

There has been a monument to failure

0:32:450:32:50

from this government right across

the board on climate change. If it

0:32:500:32:54

cannot produce a clean growth plan

on strategy, what leadership is

0:32:540:33:01

there?

To achieve the leadership you

have said, are you convinced by

0:33:010:33:03

Michael Gove. Is he to be trusted?

He takes on the job, it was a

0:33:030:33:09

portfolio we did not have before.

Let's take another example.

0:33:090:33:13

Yesterday I think the new fisheries

quotas were being agreed and Michael

0:33:130:33:18

has done a lot of work of saying

what will be the return of powers,

0:33:180:33:21

how do you have that allocation, how

do you deal with that in the UK's

0:33:210:33:25

interest. That is all you can expect

from an effective politician at this

0:33:250:33:29

stage.

Is he ambitious that he wants

to go for Prime Minister one-day?

I

0:33:290:33:37

am not here to speak on behalf of

other people, what their political

0:33:370:33:42

ambitions might be.

Would you like

to see some might Michael Gove be in

0:33:420:33:49

the ten as an environmentalist?

We

have seen David Cameron as an

0:33:490:33:55

environmentalist in Number Ten.

Theresa May is forging through with

0:33:550:33:59

animal welfare protection. We do

have a government who is led by

0:33:590:34:05

someone who is a committed

environmentalist.

D-Day and Michael

0:34:050:34:08

Gove would be any stronger in

standing up to Donald Trump -- do

0:34:080:34:13

you think Michael Gove would be any

stronger?

I think this country is

0:34:130:34:22

showing leadership both in terms of

standing up to the European Union

0:34:220:34:27

and Donald Trump when he is doing

things which are not good for our

0:34:270:34:31

planet.

How did you feel about your

11 rebels last night?

I was very

0:34:310:34:37

disappointed. I was not so much

disappointed for the Prime Minister

0:34:370:34:41

and the government, I was

disappointed for the 17.4 million

0:34:410:34:45

people, the largest majority in a

poll in this country who voted for

0:34:450:34:49

Brexit and the 58% of my

constituents who did as well.

Do you

0:34:490:34:54

think they betrayed people?

Gisela.

Should they be deselected?

-- yes.

0:34:540:35:09

Selection processes should be down

to the individual constituencies to

0:35:090:35:15

decide.

0:35:150:35:17

Now, Theresa May will join fellow EU

leaders in Brussels this

0:35:170:35:19

afternoon, bruised -

maybe - after last night's vote

0:35:190:35:21

but confident that the other 27

leaders will agree to allow Brexit

0:35:210:35:24

talks to move onto the UK's future

relationship with the EU.

0:35:240:35:27

Yesterday, the European Parliament

passed a motion approving that move

0:35:270:35:29

to phase II of the negotiations -

but emphasising the UK must hold

0:35:290:35:33

to the commitments it's made so far.

0:35:330:35:34

That's after MEPs expressed concerns

about some of the things

0:35:340:35:37

Brexit Secretary, David Davis,

has since said publicly

0:35:370:35:39

about the agreement.

0:35:390:35:41

We had an agreement, then it was put

into question, in London.

0:35:410:35:46

And that of course raises a lot

of questions what any sort

0:35:460:35:49

of agreement that we are making

here, that you are making

0:35:490:35:52

here with your counterparts.

0:35:520:35:55

And I would say especially also

about the future relationship.

0:35:550:35:58

Because if you can't trust one

another, if you're not sure that

0:35:580:36:01

whatever you agree is actually

going to hold, then this

0:36:010:36:03

is going to put a major strain

on any future relation.

0:36:030:36:07

Monsieur Barnier said earlier

there were key areas

0:36:070:36:09

upon which he was not prepared

to make many concessions.

0:36:090:36:13

Well, you didn't need to, sir.

0:36:130:36:15

Because you were up

against Theresa May and she was...

0:36:150:36:17

LAUGHTER.

0:36:170:36:18

She was all for making as many

concessions as she possibly could.

0:36:180:36:22

Including agreeing a ludicrous bill

of up to 40 billion sterling for us

0:36:220:36:26

to have the right to leave.

0:36:260:36:28

A continued role for

the European Court of Justice.

0:36:280:36:32

And in line with that,

family reunions which mean frankly

0:36:320:36:36

open-door immigration

from the European Union is going

0:36:360:36:39

to continue for years to come.

0:36:390:36:43

I'm now joined from Strasbourg

by the German Green MEP, Ska Keller,

0:36:430:36:49

and here in the studio Anand Menon,

professor of European Politics

0:36:490:36:53

and Foreign Affairs

at King's College London.

0:36:530:36:59

Welcome to both of you. Ska first of

all, how has Theresa May's defeat in

0:36:590:37:08

the House of Commons last night been

betrayed in Europe?

I don't think

0:37:080:37:13

this is a problem. The parliament in

Britain wants to be involved, that

0:37:130:37:19

is understandable, especially from

other parliamentarians. The problem

0:37:190:37:22

was really that the agreements which

have been made here were put into

0:37:220:37:27

question later by ministers. That

should not happen.

Do you not trust

0:37:270:37:31

the UK to live up to that agreement

that has been talked about and will

0:37:310:37:35

probably be signed off this week?

Well, the trust certainly has not

0:37:350:37:44

increased in the last week and I

think that is a big problem because

0:37:440:37:47

we are going to talk now about a

future relationship and trust is a

0:37:470:37:55

very important issue there. I really

hope that the British government

0:37:550:37:57

will try and build trust rather than

try and destroy it. I get that it is

0:37:570:38:01

politically a very difficult

situation in London, but still we

0:38:010:38:04

have to rely on one another, we have

to trust each other and whatever is

0:38:040:38:08

said in London will also be heard

here and that is something which is

0:38:080:38:12

very important for the British

government to understand.

Are you

0:38:120:38:16

worried that the agreement on the

divorce settlement could unravel

0:38:160:38:21

during phase two of the

negotiations?

I am not too worried

0:38:210:38:27

yet. There is an agreement, we have

seen it and we have seen the word

0:38:270:38:32

comic in the agreement. It will be

transferred to a legally binding

0:38:320:38:36

agreement. We will know soon whether

the British government stands up for

0:38:360:38:40

its own words and irony hope that is

the case.

Do you think David Davis

0:38:400:38:45

was reckless when he made those

comments about it just being a

0:38:450:38:52

statement of intent, the implication

being that they cannot trust that

0:38:520:38:54

agreement?

If you read the agreement

it starts off by saying nothing is

0:38:540:39:00

agreed until everything is agreed,

and there is a clear understanding

0:39:000:39:03

that this is a process, and what the

United Kingdom committed itself to.

0:39:030:39:08

I think it is committed to, subject

to the overall package. I think it

0:39:080:39:15

is a bit of a storm in a teacup,

that bit of the argument.

Do you

0:39:150:39:21

think it is a storm in a teacup, to

use that British phrase, that

0:39:210:39:28

nothing is agreed until everything

is agreed? Do you understand that

0:39:280:39:32

sentiment in the agreement?

Of

course, it is always the case that

0:39:320:39:38

nothing is agreed until everything

is agreed that that is different

0:39:380:39:41

than saying there are nearly

tensions. If David Davis had said we

0:39:410:39:44

need to see the overall package, no

problem, but he was putting it that

0:39:440:39:49

the commitment was only an intention

not. I do it have any problem that

0:39:490:39:53

one has to look at the overall

package once it is there, but I do

0:39:530:39:57

have a problem with the commitment

not being honoured. That for me is

0:39:570:40:02

really important. And if we look at

the future cooperation, it is

0:40:020:40:07

important that we are not just

saying it is just an intention when

0:40:070:40:11

it is a commitment.

That is a

problem for Theresa May and the

0:40:110:40:15

government, because if she hasn't

got the trust of the negotiators on

0:40:150:40:18

the other side, then that

cooperation will not be there.

I

0:40:180:40:22

think they should have the trust,

because part of the argument arose

0:40:220:40:27

out of regulatory assignment. There

was a sentence which said in the

0:40:270:40:31

absence of any agreement, a dental

0:40:310:40:42

about the Northern Ireland border. I

think the two uncertainties were

0:40:450:40:47

kind of conflated in there. I don't

think there has been any intention

0:40:470:40:49

to do things which were agreed as

part of an overall package.

Anand

0:40:490:40:52

Menon, do you think there is a risk

that if the UK does not live up to

0:40:520:40:56

its commitments, and on the Northern

Irish border, will it impact on the

0:40:560:41:02

UK's ability to secure a trade deal

with the EU?

I think there are three

0:41:020:41:07

dangers here. The first is that the

agreement is awfully woolly. It

0:41:070:41:11

means ministers can say one thing

which goes against the

0:41:110:41:16

understandings and the alignment is

understood very differently in

0:41:160:41:19

Brussels to the weight is understood

here. Secondly, this is a progress

0:41:190:41:24

report and not a deal. The British

government is right in saying this

0:41:240:41:27

is as far as we have got but we are

not bound to it, because it has been

0:41:270:41:33

ratified. The two sides mean

something very different to the

0:41:330:41:37

sentence of everything is -- nothing

is agreed until everything is

0:41:370:41:42

agreed. For some members of the

British government, they seem to

0:41:420:41:50

think that when everything is

wrapped up it will include a trade

0:41:500:41:53

deal but we will not have one when

we have to put our name on this

0:41:530:41:56

document.

So there will not be a

trade deal by March 2019. Do you

0:41:560:42:02

accept that?

No, because that is

where all our energy has to go. I am

0:42:020:42:10

not repaired to say we take it off

the table at this stage.

Phase two

0:42:100:42:17

's transition. That will take a

while. The EU will not get

0:42:170:42:22

negotiating guidelines until March.

This gives us time to sign a deep

0:42:220:42:26

and competence of trade deal.

Ska

Keller, do you think a trade deal

0:42:260:42:31

will be done by the UK and EU by

March 2019?

Well, I have been

0:42:310:42:39

working on EU trade policy here, and

the trade deals are really

0:42:390:42:44

conjugated things, just from the

whole matter of what you have to

0:42:440:42:47

deal with. It takes really long and

we have not had any trade agreement

0:42:470:42:51

which has not taken many years. I

den see how it can be so fast and

0:42:510:42:56

that is not a matter of bad

intentions, it is a matter of

0:42:560:43:01

practicalities and technicalities. I

don't see how we will get one so

0:43:010:43:04

fast.

I don't want to say two

against one here, but what makes you

0:43:040:43:12

think there is time, never mind the

will, to get a trade deal done?

0:43:120:43:15

Every trade deal which has been

negotiated would be one where you

0:43:150:43:18

had two diverging blocks, how to

find a way of working together. This

0:43:180:43:24

one is different because you are

starting from the point of total

0:43:240:43:27

convergence, say you are finding

ways of how you can continue to

0:43:270:43:30

trade, so it is a different deal.

The complexities of the different

0:43:300:43:34

nature and it can be done if the

political will is there.

Do you

0:43:340:43:38

think this is the case or it is

about transition? The next stage is

0:43:380:43:44

about agreeing the terms of the

two-year transition which will come

0:43:440:43:48

after March 2019?

I think transition

will prove more compensated the many

0:43:480:43:52

people think. The agreement that

people are talking about, that we

0:43:520:43:55

are in the market but not in a

member state, is legally

0:43:550:44:00

problematic. We start with full

alignment, we start with a member

0:44:000:44:05

state so you're not Canada where you

have to start by identifying areas

0:44:050:44:10

of convergence and divergence. But

nonetheless, looking to the future,

0:44:100:44:15

when we look at what particular

customs arrangements will be put in

0:44:150:44:19

place, that will not be happening

overnight.

Will you accept oversight

0:44:190:44:23

of the European Court of Justice in

the transition period and possibly

0:44:230:44:27

beyond when it comes to the right of

EU citizens?

If you look at the deal

0:44:270:44:35

it is time limited so that has to be

a cut-off date.

Where will it be?

It

0:44:350:44:43

is eight years and I accept that.

For the number where you need

0:44:430:44:49

referrals by British judges,

time-limited, that is fine. But it

0:44:490:44:52

is the authenticity of the European

Court of Justice, after that you can

0:44:520:44:58

negotiate. There has to be a clear

intake.

You would accept being in a

0:44:580:45:03

customs union, single market,

freedom of movement and some sort of

0:45:030:45:07

judicial oversight during the period

of transition?

I would not put it

0:45:070:45:11

the way you do, because you have to

have agreed what the final position

0:45:110:45:15

is, and the transition is towards a

clearly defined end state.

But not

0:45:150:45:20

if we don't have a trade deal. Ska

Keller, do you think we will remain

0:45:200:45:30

in a status quo position for two

years?

0:45:300:45:36

Yes, certainly. The transition phase

is needed to define what sort of

0:45:360:45:40

future cooperation we have, the ECJ

issue for us is very important,

0:45:400:45:46

especially of course the citizens

issue, they cannot just have a

0:45:460:45:51

cut-off date in the near future

because they are EU citizens who are

0:45:510:45:56

still going to be there and we

already see now we have big problems

0:45:560:46:00

to prolong this to get residence

permits, faced with really we are

0:46:000:46:06

bureaucracy. That also has not

increased the chances that we can

0:46:060:46:09

just leave it to British courts.

What does it mean in practice in

0:46:090:46:17

terms of negotiating Brexit what

happened last night, does it in

0:46:170:46:21

pellet in any way?

I don't think so,

and I don't think those who rebelled

0:46:210:46:25

against the whip were intending

that. When push comes to shove a

0:46:250:46:29

deal comes to Parliament next

September October they had to vote

0:46:290:46:33

on it and it looks like the default

condition will be no deal so MPs

0:46:330:46:37

will have a choice, we either vote

for the deal or Brexit without one.

0:46:370:46:41

You do not think it is likely MPs

will reject it?

Conservative MPs in

0:46:410:46:46

particular will think carefully

because it might bring down the

0:46:460:46:49

government.

0:46:490:46:53

Now - at the moment there are only

very minor differences in the amount

0:46:530:46:57

of income tax you pay in Scotland

and the rest of the UK.

0:46:570:47:00

But is Nicola Sturgeon's government

about to wield its devolved powers

0:47:000:47:02

to make big changes to the tax

regime in Scotland?

0:47:020:47:05

Let's talk to our Scotland editor,

Sarah Smith who is at Holyrood.

0:47:050:47:08

Everyone has assumed yes they are

going to announce an increase in the

0:47:080:47:11

higher rate of tax.

That is what we

assume and they might introduce some

0:47:110:47:15

entirely new tax bands so there will

be maybe four or five different

0:47:150:47:19

rates of income tax in Scotland

meaning higher earners could pay

0:47:190:47:23

significant by more. We have had

little clue from Nicola Sturgeon who

0:47:230:47:26

was talking at First Minister

questions and said 70% of all

0:47:260:47:31

Scottish taxpayers will not see an

increase in their income tax so I

0:47:310:47:34

think from that we can read the

basic rate is unlikely to go up.

0:47:340:47:38

They would find it politically

difficult to increase the base rate

0:47:380:47:41

because they need a manifesto

promise not to do that. But the

0:47:410:47:45

Scottish Government says they need

to increase the amount of revenue

0:47:450:47:47

because they want to maintain public

spending even though the amount of

0:47:470:47:51

money they get from London is being

cut. They have promised a pay rise

0:47:510:47:55

to public sector workers. And they

want to invest in other parts of the

0:47:550:48:00

Scottish economy. To do that they

have to raise more money so the

0:48:000:48:02

betting is it will be middle and

high earning earners who will bear

0:48:020:48:09

the brunt.

What will be the impact

in having a different band in

0:48:090:48:12

Scotland to the rest of the UK?

The

Scottish Government argues that

0:48:120:48:18

taxpayers who live in Scotland

should be happier to pay more

0:48:180:48:20

because they argue we get benefits

which are not available to people

0:48:200:48:23

who live in England, Wales and

Northern Ireland like free tuition

0:48:230:48:31

fees and prescriptions. But they

have to be careful not to raise

0:48:310:48:34

income tax on higher earners too

much. There have been a lot of

0:48:340:48:38

warnings from finance experts saying

if you put the higher rate up to

0:48:380:48:42

far, 50p being the psychological

tipping point, you will find these

0:48:420:48:46

higher earners who are very mobile

will relocate to other parts of the

0:48:460:48:51

UK or find different congregated

ways of shielding income from tax

0:48:510:48:54

and the revenue which comes to the

government might actually go down.

0:48:540:48:57

It's a delicate balance. How to

raise money from the better off

0:48:570:49:04

without leading to behavioural

changes would mean tax receipts are

0:49:040:49:07

reduced.

While they have the support

of Labour?

Certainly not, the new

0:49:070:49:12

leader of the Labour Party in

Scotland Richard Leonard has

0:49:120:49:15

outlined tax plans which are far

more radical than the government are

0:49:150:49:18

like to go for. They want a juicy

0:49:180:49:27

the Tories are against any

difference between Scotland and the

0:49:270:49:34

UK, they say Scotland becomes

non-Nazi high tax economy people not

0:49:340:49:38

want to live here. But the SNP will

need to get the agreement of some

0:49:380:49:43

other party because they are a

minority government so unless they

0:49:430:49:46

can get the greens or the Lib Dems

to vote with them.

0:49:460:49:57

Now, are the Labour Leader's

achievements being overlooked?

0:49:570:49:59

Jeremy Corbyn was awarded

a peace prize last Friday.

0:49:590:50:01

If that's news to you it's probably

because it wasn't reported

0:50:010:50:03

by most broadcasters, newspapers or

mainstream news websites.

0:50:030:50:05

But should it have been?

0:50:050:50:07

It all started with a press

release in September -

0:50:070:50:09

Jeremy Corbyn had won

the Sean MacBride Peace Prize

0:50:090:50:11

from an organisation called

the International Peace Bureau.

0:50:110:50:16

Last week, Mr Corbyn went

to Geneva to deliver a speech

0:50:160:50:18

to the United Nations,

and whilst he was there

0:50:180:50:20

he received the peace prize.

0:50:200:50:22

His speech was covered

by mainstream media outlets.

0:50:220:50:24

But the fact he'd won

the prize wasn't.

0:50:240:50:27

The online news site Sqwawkbox

posted an article accusing the BBC

0:50:270:50:30

and other mainstream media outlets

of ignoring Mr Corbyn's accolade.

0:50:300:50:40

And the story was picked up by

Corbyn supporters on social media -

0:50:420:50:45

accusing the MSM, or mainstream

media, of bias.

0:50:450:50:47

But when Channel Four's factcheck

looked into the accusation,

0:50:470:50:49

they concluded that the award

of the prize had only been reported

0:50:490:50:52

twice in the UK media since 1992.

0:50:520:50:54

But that article prompted another

furious backlash on social media

0:50:540:50:56

from Jeremy Corbyn supporters.

0:50:560:51:00

We're joined now by the Labour front

bencher and Jeremy Corbyn

0:51:000:51:03

ally, Chris Williamson.

0:51:030:51:06

Welcome back, why do you think there

is a conspiracy amongst UK

0:51:060:51:10

mainstream media to suppress

positive stories about Jeremy

0:51:100:51:13

Corbyn?

You tell me but it is clear

there was a blackout. There was a

0:51:130:51:18

photograph of Jeremy wearing a

tracksuit and it made front-page

0:51:180:51:22

news. When Theresa May put a star on

a Christmas tree there was

0:51:220:51:26

wall-to-wall coverage as there was

of William and Kate being awarded

0:51:260:51:30

the blue Peter badge. Here we have

the Leader of the Opposition being

0:51:300:51:34

awarded a prestigious peace award

and being completely ignored.

Why

0:51:340:51:41

did you not mention it when it was

announced back on six of September?

0:51:410:51:46

Jeremy is not one for bragging about

his achievements. The fact is when

0:51:460:51:52

the award was made, that is when the

ceremony took place, last week, that

0:51:520:51:56

was the time it seems to me for the

media...

Surely you do it when it

0:51:560:52:01

announced an part of the problem was

nobody in Labour announced it.

I

0:52:010:52:07

would ask you, if it was Theresa May

that had been given this award or

0:52:070:52:12

any award, do you think the

mainstream media would have ignored

0:52:120:52:14

it?

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER Maybe

the press office might have done?

0:52:140:52:23

When did you first hear about it?

I

first heard when he was awarded it

0:52:230:52:28

last week. I would have expected the

mainstream media, when you have the

0:52:280:52:35

Leader of the Opposition being

awarded this prestigious award to

0:52:350:52:40

have actually given some attention

to it. Not saying it should be main

0:52:400:52:44

headline news but there was no

mention whatsoever.

Should do not

0:52:440:52:47

have been some attention given to

the fact Jeremy Corbyn had won this

0:52:470:52:53

peace prize?

I have to confess I had

not heard of that prize or its being

0:52:530:52:57

awarded. In my experience, if you

want news out there you have two

0:52:570:53:03

quite often beat your own drum.

Do

you agree? You did not know about

0:53:030:53:09

it, you just said, back on the 6th

of September when it was announced

0:53:090:53:13

he has won the price, none of the

official Labour media accounts or

0:53:130:53:17

even Jeremy Corbyn himself

publicised it, do you think that's a

0:53:170:53:20

problem?

I think the problem is with

the mainstream media who ignored it.

0:53:200:53:26

Even when it went viral on social

media.

Where did it go viral?

After

0:53:260:53:32

he had been awarded the prize.

The

criticism from you is that we did

0:53:320:53:36

not reported at the time and you

didn't seem to know about it nor did

0:53:360:53:42

Labour will stop but that is your

job.

You are the media. You're the

0:53:420:53:53

BBC and it is your job to report the

news.

You did not know he had been

0:53:530:53:58

awarded this prize, so why would

every part of the media know if you

0:53:580:54:01

yourself did not know? I did not

know at the time it was announced on

0:54:010:54:07

the 6th of September.

Not on the 6th

of September. But we are talking

0:54:070:54:11

about last week.

Did you know on the

6th of September? Did Jeremy Corbyn

0:54:110:54:15

now?

It is irrelevant.

Why is it

irrelevant?

The presentation was

0:54:150:54:23

made last week, he was in Geneva for

that and to make an important speech

0:54:230:54:27

which did not get a lot of coverage

either. The Leader of the Opposition

0:54:270:54:31

being given what I think is a

prestigious award, 1891 cents this

0:54:310:54:37

organisation has been in existence

and some say it inspired the Nobel

0:54:370:54:44

Peace Prize. They are very

established in that sense and yet

0:54:440:54:48

the media ignored the fact that the

Leader of the Opposition, the

0:54:480:54:52

official opposition in this country,

particularly when you take into

0:54:520:54:57

account all the smears which have

been levelled at Jeremy. This issue

0:54:570:55:01

about his alleged support for Hamas

which is nonsense. Here we have a

0:55:010:55:07

peace award being awarded to him and

no mention.

Do you not think that is

0:55:070:55:13

unfair on Jeremy Corbyn? There has

been never negative coverage, do you

0:55:130:55:19

think that has been unfair?

Randolph

Hearst once said that news is what

0:55:190:55:25

someone does not want you to know

and everything else is advertising.

0:55:250:55:30

I could have masses of criticism as

to whether the news at the moment is

0:55:300:55:35

too negative about Brexit, I know

the media was very negative about

0:55:350:55:41

Jeremy Corbyn. But then how do you

respond as an organisation? You have

0:55:410:55:46

to rebut it and put out the good

news stories.

But the point here is

0:55:460:55:50

there was no news, they just ignored

it. If there was nothing about

0:55:500:55:54

Brexit I think there would be

something to say about it. When the

0:55:540:55:58

media is giving a wall to wall

coverage of the Prime Minister

0:55:580:56:01

putting a star on the Christmas tree

but is not reporting that the leader

0:56:010:56:06

of the official opposition has been

presented with a prestigious peace

0:56:060:56:09

award particularly given the

allegations made against him that he

0:56:090:56:13

is soft on terrorism...

You have not

answered that question, is there an

0:56:130:56:18

fair coverage of Jeremy Corbyn and

his position on things like, the

0:56:180:56:22

Israeli-Palestinian crisis for

example?

There is a tendency to

0:56:220:56:26

focus on the negative but that is

what the media does and that is why

0:56:260:56:29

we need to go out and put the

positive on that.

The point is it is

0:56:290:56:33

a media blackout, it's not

negativity, this is just a blackout.

0:56:330:56:37

When it's good news there is

nothing, the media just...

Is it

0:56:370:56:42

because it is not controversial or

unusual?

0:56:420:56:45

You just said yourself, if it is

good news it does not get coverage.

0:56:480:56:52

You said unusual, I think it is

unusual, when is the last time the

0:56:520:56:56

leader of the official opposition in

this country was presented with a

0:56:560:57:01

peace prize?

Unusual that there was

not anything controversial.

So you

0:57:010:57:05

only report bad news?

That is what

you are implying!

But when it is the

0:57:050:57:14

Prime Minister you report about

putting a tree up, or Jeremy Corbyn

0:57:140:57:19

is wearing a tracksuit.

Next time

put it on Twitter when it happens.

0:57:190:57:24

When it was and it was by was a

media blackout is the point I am

0:57:240:57:28

making.

Well we are not media

blackout in you, thank you for

0:57:280:57:32

coming on.

0:57:320:57:33

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:57:330:57:37

The question was -

according to Facebook,

0:57:370:57:39

what did an organisation with links

to the Russian government

0:57:390:57:41

spend just 73p promoting,

according to Facebook?

0:57:410:57:43

Was it:

0:57:430:57:44

The American Election?

0:57:440:57:45

Brexit?

0:57:450:57:46

This year's general election?

0:57:460:57:47

Or vodka?

0:57:470:57:48

So Gisela, what's

the correct answer?

0:57:480:57:52

Is it because I am here that the

answer is Brexit?

Funnily enough,

0:57:520:57:58

well done, you have cottoned on to

this. Do you believe them in that

0:57:580:58:02

regard, was evidence of Russian

interference?

I have no evidence of

0:58:020:58:08

that but I am sure the enquiries

will tell me. I am so new media

0:58:080:58:13

useless that's...

That sounds like

an excuse to me!

If there is

0:58:130:58:21

evidence out there I would like to

know it.

And the Electoral

0:58:210:58:27

Commission is reopening and

investigating into spending, why is

0:58:270:58:31

that?

I think it is doing its job

and I am glad they are following the

0:58:310:58:37

proper procedure.

Were you

surprised?

I was, because I was not

0:58:370:58:41

sure what neither was but they have

two the job and I think they ought

0:58:410:58:46

to.

0:58:460:58:48

That's all for today.

0:58:480:58:49

Thanks to all my guests,

especially Gisela.

0:58:490:58:51

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:510:58:53

And I'll be back here at noon

tomorrow with all the big

0:58:530:58:56

political stories of the day.

0:58:560:58:57

Bye-bye.

0:58:570:58:58

Jo Coburn is joined by the former Labour MP and now chair of Change Britain, Gisela Stuart. They look at the government's defeat in the Commons over the Brexit bill and what it means for Theresa May at the EU Summit in Brussels. They preview the Scottish Budget. And Jeremy Corbyn has been awarded a peace prize, but why has it received so little media coverage? Jo finds out.


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