15/12/2017 Daily Politics


15/12/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Andrew Pierce and Anne McElvoy to examine what happens next as EU leaders get ready to formally agree to start the next phase of Brexit talk.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 15/12/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

0:00:370:00:41

EU leaders have formally agreed

to move Brexit talks

0:00:410:00:43

onto the next stage.

0:00:430:00:45

So does this mean Theresa May

will get her wish to start

0:00:450:00:48

talking trade anytime soon?

0:00:480:00:51

Is it the future of money?

0:00:510:00:52

Or a dangerous currency

bubble about to burst?

0:00:520:00:56

We'll delve into the secretive world

of Bitcoin and ask whether it

0:00:560:00:59

needs more regulation.

0:00:590:01:02

What's your national identity?

0:01:020:01:05

English, Scottish,

Welsh, Northern Irish?

0:01:050:01:06

Or Cornish?

0:01:060:01:08

Yes, the good people of Cornwall

want their own tick-box

0:01:080:01:10

in the next census.

0:01:100:01:11

Could it happen?

0:01:110:01:14

And, was the donner almost a gonner?

0:01:140:01:18

A vote in the European Parliament

this week almost skewered the humble

0:01:180:01:20

"frozen vertical meat stick" -

or kebab to you and me.

0:01:200:01:23

We'll chew over the details.

0:01:230:01:32

All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole programme

0:01:320:01:35

today is Anne McElvoy

from the Economist and the Daily

0:01:350:01:38

Mail's Andrew Pierce.

0:01:380:01:40

First today, the UK's most senior

military officer has warned that

0:01:400:01:43

Russia could turn off the internet

to Britain by tampering with

0:01:430:01:46

the undersea cables in the Atlantic.

0:01:460:01:50

The Chief of Defence Staff Sir

Stuart Peach said Russian ships

0:01:500:01:53

had been spotted close to the cables

and this posed a new

0:01:530:01:56

threat to UK security.

0:01:560:02:00

Russia, in addition to new ships

and submarines, continues to perfect

0:02:000:02:04

both unconventional capabilities

and information warfare.

0:02:040:02:13

And there's a new risk to our way

of life, which is the vulnerability

0:02:130:02:16

of the cables that crisscross

the sea beds.

0:02:160:02:19

Can you imagine a scenario where

those cables are cut or disrupted,

0:02:190:02:23

which would immediately

and potentially catastrophically

0:02:230:02:28

affect both our economy

and other ways of living

0:02:280:02:30

if they were disrupted?

0:02:300:02:37

How vulnerable is Crypto- Britain to

this threat?

One wouldn't

0:02:370:02:41

underestimate how much goes on

behind the scenes thinking of

0:02:410:02:46

unconventional warfare. It sounds

from the Borne Id dentity. Attacks

0:02:460:02:54

on cyberstructure, which we have

seen and are repelled by

0:02:540:03:00

Governments, a lot of them in some

way are connected to China, some to

0:03:000:03:04

Russia and some to other states in

the Middle East. These are things

0:03:040:03:07

they worry about a lot. Particularly

these big cables. We sort of forget

0:03:070:03:11

they are down there because they

have been down there so long. There

0:03:110:03:17

is a poem writ no-one the 1920s

about -- written in the 1920s about

0:03:170:03:23

installing them.

It is the infrastructure which keeps

0:03:230:03:27

everything on the road. It would

signal this is not just a flyby

0:03:270:03:32

night idea, that they do think there

might be some sort of planning that

0:03:320:03:36

could possibly aim towards an

attack.

And if that is a real

0:03:360:03:42

threat, an attack from Russia on

these cables, Britain doesn't really

0:03:420:03:46

have the ships, submarines or

aircraft to mount constant watch of

0:03:460:03:51

these cables. Are you happy and

reassured to rely on Nato to do it?

0:03:510:04:00

Defence cuts have been made so much.

Siber warfare is the new cold war.

0:04:000:04:06

No doubt about it. It would be sad

to rely on Nato to patrol our

0:04:060:04:11

waters. That would be the only way.

It would be a crippling blow if we

0:04:110:04:15

were attacked in that way in

undersea communications.

I am not

0:04:150:04:20

sure whether I agree whether I

agree, we have to think about what

0:04:200:04:24

is joint security at the moment and

particularly when we look at the

0:04:240:04:27

fragmented Europe, where I think

that Nato alliances is one of the

0:04:270:04:31

things which might help to glue the

countries with similar values back

0:04:310:04:34

together. Actually having that view,

which is not something we were

0:04:340:04:38

saying picking a fight with Russia,

not trying to do manoeuvres. To your

0:04:380:04:48

question about what would follow,

well, I am afraid I can only follow

0:04:480:04:52

what we heard there - they probably

have a better idea than I do. What

0:04:520:04:56

they are worried about is something

which causes panic and would cause

0:04:560:04:59

the internet to go down. Of course

people's devices would stop working.

0:04:590:05:03

As you would well know, the run-up

to this programme, all of us, not

0:05:030:05:07

saying the worst thing in the world,

but...

It would be dramatic.

In

0:05:070:05:13

everyone's lives. Of course hospital

machinery depends on it. Things more

0:05:130:05:18

important than The Daily Politics

going out on time depend on it. That

0:05:180:05:23

sense, how much of our domestic life

and security, personal security on

0:05:230:05:28

line depends on it all working.

Let's leave it there.

0:05:280:05:34

Now, EU leaders have given

the green light to the next

0:05:340:05:37

phase of Brexit talks.

0:05:370:05:38

They're meeting on the second day

of the European Council

0:05:380:05:40

Summit in Brussels.

0:05:400:05:42

Theresa May isn't there -

she's flown home -

0:05:420:05:44

but at a four-hour working dinner

last night she told European leaders

0:05:440:05:47

she was keen to "get on to the next

phase" of negotiations and discuss

0:05:470:05:50

Britain's future relationship.

0:05:500:05:54

We can speak now to our old friend,

Adam Fleming, who has been

0:05:540:05:57

at the summit for the last two days.

0:05:570:06:00

Welcome back. In terms of timing

when do you think we will move on to

0:06:020:06:07

these trade talks? The indications

indicate it will not be in the

0:06:070:06:12

immediate future.

Good to be back.

Yes, it has happened, sufficient

0:06:120:06:16

progress has been declared. Notice

that is sufficient progress, not

0:06:160:06:20

phase one completely done and

dusted. There's been a collective

0:06:200:06:25

sigh of relief over the last couple

of days they have reached this

0:06:250:06:28

symbolic milestone. It is the

question of when the trade talks

0:06:280:06:31

will start. We have seen the

guidelines which are the blueprint

0:06:310:06:34

for phase two. They have been

published by the European Council.

0:06:340:06:38

The first thing which will happen is

the formal negotiations about the

0:06:380:06:42

transition period oh or what the UK

Government call the implementation

0:06:420:06:45

phase, what happens next Street the

chief negotiator will publish a new

0:06:450:06:50

document, probably as soon as next

week, fleshing out what those

0:06:500:06:54

negotiations will involve, the terms

which they will be conducted. He

0:06:540:06:58

told me when he arrived they will

probably start negotiations about

0:06:580:07:02

the transition period in January n

the New Year, as soon as they can,

0:07:020:07:05

basically. Now the issue of the few

our partnership -- future

0:07:050:07:13

partnership, the co-operation on

trade, defence, security, climate

0:07:130:07:17

change, you name it, it will

probably not get started until March

0:07:170:07:21

2018 at the earliest. Because the EU

27, the 27 remaining countries want

0:07:210:07:27

the UK Government to have a

Cabinet-level discussion about what

0:07:270:07:30

they want from that future

partnership. Only then will the EU

0:07:300:07:36

put out more detailed guidance about

what they want from the future

0:07:360:07:39

partnership and how those

negotiations will unfold. A little

0:07:390:07:43

one though, there has been a change.

Says the EU 27 can start work. It is

0:07:430:07:58

not a dead stop on that until March.

There'll be work happening in

0:07:580:08:03

Brussels towards those talks

starting in March.

Theresa May was

0:08:030:08:08

applauded after addressing EU

leaders last night. Does that mean

0:08:080:08:12

the EU counsel is full square behind

her?

It has been amazing to see the

0:08:120:08:18

support she's had from continental

colleagues. It exists for a few

0:08:180:08:21

reasons. First, they want to give

her help because they know she's got

0:08:210:08:25

a difficult political situation back

home. They want her to stay in

0:08:250:08:28

position and be able to deliver the

final Brexit deal and get it tloo u

0:08:280:08:32

the British Parliament. Second of

all, these are all professional

0:08:320:08:36

politicians, many of whom find

themselves in a far more precarious

0:08:360:08:41

political position than Theresa May

does. There a has been a lot of

0:08:410:08:45

fellow feeling for her as well. It's

been quite amazing seeing the

0:08:450:08:49

solidarity that people have been

laying it on quite thick, some

0:08:490:08:53

people say.

It is the season of

goodwill and thaul. So -- and all

0:08:530:09:07

that.

0:09:070:09:07

So relief for the Prime Minister

in Brussels, but where does it

0:09:090:09:12

leave her with Parliament

and her party, especially

0:09:120:09:14

after this week's defeat...

0:09:140:09:18

What do you think of the

Conservative rebels?

The rears, a

0:09:190:09:25

lot of former ministers who were

fired. I still think they are

0:09:250:09:29

intent, some at least, in trying to

destroy Brexit. Dominic Grieve has

0:09:290:09:40

told me it's the worst thing which

has happened in this country. Think

0:09:400:09:42

I he would like to junk the whole

thing. The Prime Minister may back

0:09:420:09:46

off this idea of actually writing

the date into legislation because

0:09:460:09:50

she cannot afford another defeat. It

is too embarrassing.

It has enraged

0:09:500:09:55

people. Dominic Grieve has received

death threats do. You feel

0:09:550:10:07

responsible for whipping up that

sort of...

I am sorry he's received

0:10:070:10:13

death threats. It is nothing to do

what the Daily Mail has put on their

0:10:130:10:17

page. The reason she is applauded is

because they are dealing with her.

0:10:170:10:22

The last thing they want is Boris

Johnson or Michael Gove or a

0:10:220:10:31

hard-line Brexit tear leading the

negotiations.

Does it do anything to

0:10:310:10:35

lessen the likelihood of it

happening?

Not to my mind. I can see

0:10:350:10:39

the case for arguing for Parliament

to have a greater say and

0:10:390:10:43

sovereignty. That is actually the

strongest plank in the argument and

0:10:430:10:49

those of his fellow wreckers, as

Andrew says, as a bit of a joke.

0:10:490:10:53

There is something there about the

role of Parliament which is quite

0:10:530:10:56

difficult in this situation.

However, there is a problem. There

0:10:560:11:00

is a problem from this viewpoint -

which is, what do they think they

0:11:000:11:05

would like. It is not a menu where

you can go I would like it with the

0:11:050:11:09

pork! You have to take it with the

direction of travel and you see from

0:11:090:11:12

your package there is a sense the EU

is behind the direction of travel

0:11:120:11:16

that Theresa May has taken f they

have to have Brexit at all, I should

0:11:160:11:20

say. If you don't go this route,

most of that, you end up with a

0:11:200:11:27

resort of WTO rules, which is the

so-called hard Brexit, which most

0:11:270:11:32

people who oppose Brexit don't want

most of all. Their own strategy is

0:11:320:11:37

unclear beyond inflicting damage on

Theresa May.

Looking beyond next

0:11:370:11:46

week, we have heard from the lobby,

where the press were gathered at

0:11:460:11:50

number ten to say they have no plans

to withdraw it. Is that code for,

0:11:500:11:54

they might be?

That is code for they

might change their mind. The whips I

0:11:540:12:00

don't think handled it this week.

There was rumour that the Chief Whip

0:12:000:12:07

was threatening action against some

of the rebels. They have to improve

0:12:070:12:09

it this week. If there is a risk,

they'll back off. If they do keep

0:12:090:12:15

pushing this, the EU has said they

will not reopen negotiations thus

0:12:150:12:19

far. We could walk away with no deal

at all. That is the last thing they

0:12:190:12:23

want.

What about the op sigss in

this? They joined with the Tory

0:12:230:12:27

rebels. Are they emboldened or do

they actually now seem to think they

0:12:270:12:33

do have to go along with

negotiations because there isn't

0:12:330:12:36

much more they can do at this point?

It depends who you are asking. If

0:12:360:12:42

you look at Kier Starmer trying to

move his party in the single market

0:12:420:12:50

access as much as possible, what you

want to do from his perspective is

0:12:500:12:55

make life difficult for the

Government. You don't want a

0:12:550:12:58

full-frontal assault on the

Government.

0:12:580:13:03

Jeremy Corbyn said things which

didn't commit Labour to anything at

0:13:030:13:06

all.

And I think Keir Starmer has got

0:13:060:13:11

Jeremy Corbyn in his team be I

saying, please don't say anything

0:13:110:13:14

unless you mean it it is unclear

what Labour would actually do. If we

0:13:140:13:18

were to go into an early election

that question would loom from day

0:13:180:13:23

one that Labour's position is

absolutely mysterious.

0:13:230:13:27

What might be intriguing to the

voting public is the Cabinet doesn't

0:13:270:13:32

have an agreed position yet, well

not publically in terms of how the

0:13:320:13:36

future relationship with the EU or

what it will look like - why not?

0:13:360:13:41

The Prime Minister has not permitted

the discussion to take place. She

0:13:410:13:45

wants the first negotiations out of

the way. It has actually stopped the

0:13:450:13:49

discussion.

Is that because the gulf

between the likes of Phillip Hammond

0:13:490:13:56

on one and Boris Johnson and Michael

Gove is too wide that it cannot be

0:13:560:14:01

reached?

There is a big gap between

them. The Chancellor knows we are

0:14:010:14:05

leaving the European Union, we are

leaving the customs union, that is

0:14:050:14:09

agreed.

How far apart do you think

they will be. We have heard from

0:14:090:14:14

Brussels the sort of threat, until

you have an agreed position, and

0:14:140:14:19

until we know the view we will not

move on to the trade talks.

Theresa

0:14:190:14:25

May can be a rid gid leader. She's

not being too unclever about this.

0:14:250:14:29

Last week in the run-up, when things

were going badly with that meeting,

0:14:290:14:33

that problem with the DUP, and all

those things, what she did cleverly

0:14:330:14:37

is got Michael Gove on side to sign

up to sort of some sort of plus,

0:14:370:14:42

plus, minus and add to take away

one. That seems to be going. So

0:14:420:14:48

Michael Gove seems to be coming on

side. She got Boris Johnson on side

0:14:480:14:54

separately to say, could you advise?

She's good as picking off one by

0:14:540:15:01

one. She doesn't want to have

everyone around a table and say, OK,

0:15:010:15:05

what would you like? Then those

splits would open up again. The

0:15:050:15:09

mixture and desire to get there and

internal competition, she ended up

0:15:090:15:14

with her Chancellor and Defence

Secretary having a stand-up fight

0:15:140:15:17

recently.

Which didn't get that much

coverage because there was so much

0:15:170:15:21

talk about Brexit.

She doesn't want

that again. She picks off the

0:15:210:15:25

naughty boys and girls one by one,

like a good head.

What about

0:15:250:15:28

transition because that and the

terms of transition seems to be the

0:15:280:15:32

next priority. How urgent is that

now for business that those terms

0:15:320:15:37

are agreed?

0:15:370:15:38

It's pretty much going to be a

two-year transition and no more. I

0:15:440:15:48

was at a conference in Reading and

talking to businesses and they said

0:15:480:15:51

they're much more relaxed now about

Brexit. They feared the uncertainty

0:15:510:15:55

but they think clarity is coming.

Don't you think that would be open

0:15:550:16:00

if this issue with the date keeps

slipping? It's one thing you can

0:16:000:16:04

save you can check out whenever you

like but you can only leave in cue

0:16:040:16:08

years just that. As soon as there's

an odd little about the date, I

0:16:080:16:12

think that will make the hard Brexit

crowd go crazy.

Let's move on.

0:16:120:16:18

It's the new goldrush.

0:16:180:16:19

The digital currency bitcoin has

been making headlines this week

0:16:190:16:21

after its huge increase in value.

0:16:210:16:23

But now ministers are to introduce

tighter regulations on the virtual

0:16:230:16:26

currency because of concerns it's

being used to launder

0:16:260:16:28

money and dodge tax.

0:16:280:16:29

Some MPs believe the Government

should help bring digital currencies

0:16:290:16:31

into the mainstream,

and say it could have advantages

0:16:310:16:33

for our public services.

0:16:330:16:34

Here's Emma Vardy.

0:16:340:16:38

Bitcoin is one of a number

of so-called crypto currencies.

0:16:380:16:41

Unlike the notes in your pocket,

it largely exists online and isn't

0:16:410:16:45

printed by governments

or traditional banks.

0:16:450:16:49

You store bitcoin in a digital

wallet and it can be used to pay

0:16:490:16:52

for all sorts of goods

and services online.

0:16:520:16:54

And some businesses accept

payment in bitcoin, too,

0:16:540:16:58

like this soup restaurant

here in Old Street, which also

0:16:580:17:00

has its own bitcoin cashpoint.

0:17:000:17:05

There is an advantage and that's

lower transaction fees.

0:17:050:17:07

If you compare the fees

of accepting bitcoin compared

0:17:070:17:10

to credit card fees,

which - especially AMEX -

0:17:100:17:13

can be very high.

0:17:130:17:15

It's quite nice being the underdog

against the banking system.

0:17:150:17:19

Until now, people have been able

to buy and sell bitcoin

0:17:190:17:22

largely anonymously.

0:17:220:17:24

So apart from just buying your lunch

with it, police say it could be used

0:17:240:17:27

on a much bigger scale for money

laundering by criminals.

0:17:270:17:30

Now the Treasury wants to regulate

bitcoin and other crypto currencies.

0:17:300:17:35

Regulators need to look at consumer

protection and I think that's

0:17:350:17:38

probably one of the issues

that we really need to address

0:17:380:17:41

and take seriously.

0:17:410:17:43

There is no protections,

actually, in bitcoin.

0:17:430:17:44

So if you go to the bank,

you've got a £70,000 buffer

0:17:440:17:48

that they will guarantee for you.

0:17:480:17:49

No such thing with bitcoin.

0:17:490:17:50

You are effectively your own bank.

0:17:500:17:54

At the moment, the new regulations,

which are expected to come

0:17:540:17:57

into force by early next year,

will focus on giving

0:17:570:17:59

authorities greater oversight

of crypto currencies under

0:17:590:18:01

anti-money-laundering

and counterterrorism legislation.

0:18:010:18:07

The identities of bitcoin users

will no longer remain anonymous.

0:18:070:18:10

But some say the government

should go much further.

0:18:100:18:14

We ought to be leading the way

in how we can apply this for social

0:18:140:18:17

good as well as for economic gain.

0:18:170:18:20

By encouraging bitcoin and that side

of the crypto currencies and that

0:18:200:18:24

side of this new technology wave,

by regulating it properly

0:18:240:18:29

and allowing it to expand,

we are actually doing ourselves

0:18:290:18:31

a big favour as a country.

0:18:310:18:34

John Mann, a member

of the Treasury Select Committee,

0:18:340:18:36

says he wants to see the government

carry out a much fuller enquiry

0:18:360:18:39

into the potential use

of alternative currencies for public

0:18:390:18:42

services And believes

the government should look at how

0:18:420:18:44

they and the underlying technology,

called blockchain, could be used

0:18:440:18:47

in future by authorities.

0:18:470:18:51

I'd like to see our health records

put on the blockchain,

0:18:510:18:54

so if an ambulance turns up,

they've got immediate

0:18:540:18:59

access to my records.

0:18:590:19:00

Also property transactions,

a really good one to be

0:19:000:19:02

carried out on there.

0:19:020:19:03

It would actually help

get rid of fraud.

0:19:030:19:06

It needs that push from government

and that would allow this

0:19:060:19:09

whole new technology wave

to dramatically expand.

0:19:090:19:16

The value of a single bitcoin has

increased 12-fold this year,

0:19:160:19:18

from around £700 in January

to around £8,000.

0:19:180:19:24

Part of its charm, some argue,

was the fact it wasn't

0:19:240:19:27

part of the mainstream.

0:19:270:19:28

Now government regulation could pave

the way for that to change.

0:19:280:19:38

Well, here to discuss this with me

are Dominic Frisby, author

0:19:390:19:41

of Bitcoin: The Future Of Money?

0:19:410:19:43

And Dr Savvas Savouri,

chief economist at

0:19:430:19:45

Toscafund Asset Management.

0:19:450:19:45

Welcome to the programme.

0:19:450:19:51

Dominick, do you think we'll all be

paying for our shopping and meals

0:19:510:19:54

out with bitcoin in the future?

No,

I don't. Bitcoin is another currency

0:19:540:20:00

and it was designed to be cash for

the Internet. If you think about

0:20:000:20:05

what we use cash for in the real

world, we use it for small

0:20:050:20:09

transactions, we use it for quick

transactions, we use it for direct

0:20:090:20:14

transactions and we use it for

private transactions. Now, they're

0:20:140:20:17

all sorts of transactions and the

aim of bitcoin was to replicate that

0:20:170:20:21

for the Internet. So I can send you

money without involving a bank or

0:20:210:20:25

any kind of middleman. That was the

original purpose of bitcoin and it

0:20:250:20:30

wasn't to kind of replace the US

dollar or anything else or the

0:20:300:20:34

British pound, so the idea that

we'll use it and it will be the only

0:20:340:20:38

money system in the world is

fallacious. But the technology

0:20:380:20:41

behind it, which am as your show

just showed, morphed into something

0:20:410:20:46

much bigger than an alternative cash

system. It used for record keeping,

0:20:460:20:49

all sorts of things. The technology

behind it is a breakthrough

0:20:490:20:55

technology and future money systems

might actually be based on block

0:20:550:20:58

chain technology.

Why don't you

think, that the future of it is with

0:20:580:21:08

bitcoin, Sav?

You mentioned block

chain. You don't own block chain by

0:21:080:21:14

owning bitcoin. If you look at those

who have been buying bitcoin of late

0:21:140:21:20

and those who think John McDonald

would be a good Chancellor, they

0:21:200:21:23

overlap too closely. You cannot deny

the graph. You cannot deny the

0:21:230:21:37

exponential growth in the price of

bitcoin, but we mustn't confuse the

0:21:370:21:40

price of something with its value.

It's a bubble. I'm short Dominic's

0:21:400:21:46

book is a great work of fiction. A

work of fact was written in 1841

0:21:460:21:54

called extraordinary illusions.

We've been here before. This will

0:21:540:21:58

burst.

Your acidic, clearly, but is

your book a book of fiction in the

0:21:580:22:02

way it's been described?

That's a

rather damning indictment from

0:22:020:22:07

someone who's never even read my

book. Interestingly, you down the

0:22:070:22:10

technology, you've never used it.

You've never bought bitcoin. You

0:22:100:22:16

find this with the bitcoin

doomsayers. It's always inevitably

0:22:160:22:21

people who are not familiar with the

technology.

Waits...

Are you

0:22:210:22:29

familiar with it?

I have a Ph.D..

I'm a capitalist. I would hate to

0:22:290:22:35

stand in the way of people making

money...

People will have made money

0:22:350:22:39

on bitcoin.

There is a theory

creeping in here. Let's not conflate

0:22:390:22:46

owning bitcoin with owning block

chain.

The greater argument, bitcoin

0:22:460:22:52

has been the greatest moneymaking

opportunity any of us will ever see

0:22:520:22:56

in our lifetimes. Who's the greater

fool? The guy who's made money or

0:22:560:23:00

the guy who's stood aside?

What

about people who have lost money?

0:23:000:23:05

Because they have. It is extremely

vulnerable and prone to illegal

0:23:050:23:09

activity and to the Lord.

You're

absolutely right and you're looking

0:23:090:23:12

at somebody who has lost money in

bitcoin.

Why do you still believe in

0:23:120:23:19

it?

As I originally said to you, it

is cash for the Internet. The reason

0:23:190:23:25

those bitcoin were stolen from me

was my own ignorance in security.

0:23:250:23:31

What you say about financially

ignorant people currently

0:23:310:23:35

speculating on bitcoin, I would go

along with that. It is a mania.

0:23:350:23:39

People are investing in bitcoin who

have no experience whatsoever with

0:23:390:23:42

it. And anyone who does speculate it

should familiarise themselves with

0:23:420:23:49

the technology first and be aware

that by holding bitcoins you are

0:23:490:23:54

doing the Internet equivalent of

holding cash. If you held large

0:23:540:23:58

amounts of cash, you would put it in

a safe, a bank...

My 12-year-old son

0:23:580:24:04

was trading with his friends two or

three years ago, football picture

0:24:040:24:07

cards. He got bored of it and the

current generation who are trading

0:24:070:24:11

bitcoin will get bored.

Will they

come if they're making money?

They

0:24:110:24:17

keep holding on to the position

saying it will go up again. No one

0:24:170:24:20

is suggesting there haven't been

profits but it's a zero-sum. You

0:24:200:24:24

make money because flog it.

If there

were regulation, could it work and

0:24:240:24:29

more of a fad?

No. We have enough

currencies in the world will stop

0:24:290:24:34

the fact that western grizzlies have

no yield because interest is zero,

0:24:340:24:40

that will change. Normal service

will resume shortly.

I don't see how

0:24:400:24:44

it could ever be a replacement as

cash or as another currency.

I'm not

0:24:440:24:49

suggesting that, I'm saying it's

cash for the Internet. That was its

0:24:490:24:52

original purpose but it's morphed

into something much bigger. The

0:24:520:24:59

current system of money is there are

all sorts of false with it. It's

0:24:590:25:03

broken. You said it's a zero

interest rate situation that will

0:25:030:25:07

fix itself. We'd been there for

nearly ten years and there's very

0:25:070:25:10

little sign of it changing. This is

a system of money backed by

0:25:100:25:15

mathematical proof. It cannot be

debased or quantitatively eased. You

0:25:150:25:19

can't suppress interest rates. You

can't print it. It can be stolen,

0:25:190:25:23

absolutely.

It hasn't caught on in a

massive way.

Its tulips. The base is

0:25:230:25:29

narrow.

It's interesting, because

the 17th-century bitcoin of its day

0:25:290:25:36

work tulip bulbs. People invested

massively and suddenly the interest

0:25:360:25:42

went pop.

There is no underlying

function to tulips.

Will the bubble

0:25:420:25:48

burst?

As always I take my leave

from the Economist and I do because

0:25:480:25:55

people spend a lot of time working

on it. Bitcoin, I wouldn't spend too

0:25:550:25:59

much time on it. You have to get in

and out and it is difficult. The

0:25:590:26:05

underlying theory of crypto

currencies will be a development in

0:26:050:26:08

our lifetimes I think there is

something underlying.

I'm not

0:26:080:26:12

denying its mania and it's gone in

way excess of what its value is, but

0:26:120:26:16

it has real world use. .Com was a

bubble.

And it burst!

0:26:160:26:23

Now, it's panto time

and we all know the story

0:26:230:26:26

of Cinderella and how she's

desperate to attend the ball.

0:26:260:26:28

Well, my next guest was also hoping

to go to the ball, but has been told

0:26:280:26:32

by the Conservative party -

rather than the wicked

0:26:320:26:34

step-sisters - that he can't.

0:26:340:26:35

And just a warning -

the pictures you're about to see do

0:26:350:26:38

contain flashing images.

0:26:380:26:41

Charlie Mullins,

from Pimlico Plumbers

0:26:410:26:43

and Conservative party supporter

and donor, has been told he can no

0:26:430:26:46

longer attend the exclusive

Black and White ball,

0:26:460:26:48

held to fundraise for

the Conservative Party.

0:26:480:26:52

Pictured here attending last year's

event, Mr Mullins had wanted

0:26:520:26:54

to have a table at the

event costing £15,000.

0:26:540:26:58

But when he went to book he was told

he was no longer welcome.

0:26:580:27:02

He believes it's due

to his criticism of Theresa May,

0:27:020:27:05

but hasn't been given an exact

reason by the party.

0:27:050:27:13

We did ask the Conservatives

if they could tell us why

0:27:130:27:16

Charlie Mullins had been declined

a table at the ball but they did not

0:27:160:27:19

want to comment or provide

anyone for an interview.

0:27:190:27:21

Charlie Mullins joins us now.

0:27:210:27:23

How disappointed are you?

I'm not

really that disappointed. At the end

0:27:230:27:26

of the day, I think it's very

childish, necessary. I've been a

0:27:260:27:31

Tory donor for many years, gone to

various different parties with them

0:27:310:27:35

and all of a sudden, they're telling

me you're not welcome.

Do you its --

0:27:350:27:41

do you think it's because of your

support to remain in the EU?

I'm not

0:27:410:27:45

happy about that but evidently it's

because of my views that I don't

0:27:450:27:49

think she's doing a great job at the

moment.

And you been quite explicit

0:27:490:27:53

in those views. We certainly aren't

a fan of Theresa May. Tell us some

0:27:530:27:57

of the things you said.

I think we

need a stronger leader or will end

0:27:570:28:05

up with Jeremy Corbyn.

She's got to

go over her own sake, it's

0:28:050:28:09

embarrassing, she's not only weak

but her is hobbling the UK. This is

0:28:090:28:14

totally your entitlement to say

these things, but do you think that

0:28:140:28:16

is what led to this?

Undoubtably.

I've been told it's because of

0:28:160:28:21

outspoken comments. Let's be fair.

Andrew, you're very outspoken and

0:28:210:28:25

you and Kevin argue like man and

wife!

Are you talking about Kevin

0:28:250:28:30

Maguire?

Yes! I'm sure you still

invite you to his Christmas party.

0:28:300:28:40

Is it childish of the Conservative

Party not to accept money from

0:28:400:28:44

Charlie Mullins?

I certainly don't

think it's anything to do with

0:28:440:28:50

Charlie's views on the EU. Some of

the Cabinet are remain as will stop

0:28:500:28:55

they'll be there en masse.

What do

you think the reason is?

It to do

0:28:550:29:00

that with that, Andrew. Brexit leave

or stay, what they're saying is they

0:29:000:29:07

don't like what you're saying about

her. I'm only saying what a lot of

0:29:070:29:11

people are thinking and she needs

people like me to put the point

0:29:110:29:14

across that if you aren't doing the

job right, everyone else is being

0:29:140:29:19

lovely, lovely. She should get on to

Boris and these people who are

0:29:190:29:22

backstabbing hair and not me.

Why do

you want to go if you think it's a

0:29:220:29:27

disaster? Why do you want to go to

the Conservative fundraiser?

I want

0:29:270:29:31

to put money in and make sure they

stay in power will stop when she had

0:29:310:29:36

the snap election we put quite a few

quid in for a few MPs. I'm very much

0:29:360:29:41

behind the Conservatives. I'm just

saying I don't think she's the lady

0:29:410:29:44

to be the leader.

You said on a blog

that she is politically dead, maybe

0:29:440:29:48

some will do the decent thing and

take her out. Perhaps party

0:29:480:29:51

officials may not want you sitting

near her at the dinner.

She's being

0:29:510:29:54

bullied. At the conference she was

being bullied, everything was going

0:29:540:29:59

wrong for her, and people are

backstabbing hair. .

Shouldn't the

0:29:590:30:06

government be doing more to

encourage business people?

I think

0:30:060:30:10

they should. Charlie has a

successful business.

You think you

0:30:100:30:14

should be allowed to go?

I think

it's a hideous do, it's so ghastly.

0:30:140:30:20

That's your choice. I think you

should go because you live it up.

It

0:30:200:30:24

is about being a critical friend,

isn't it?

It is, I sent ambiguity

0:30:240:30:28

and I think it's a mixture of a

fundraiser and a social event. Most

0:30:280:30:33

people go, they're going to have

criticisms of Theresa May. They

0:30:330:30:35

might want another leader, the Yate,

Boris crowd who rattle their

0:30:350:30:40

jewellery. If you are of the view

that she's a complete disaster, it

0:30:400:30:46

seems funny. This is an event she

will be the big guest.

Final words

0:30:460:30:51

to you.

The summer party a couple of

months ago, David Davis on the

0:30:510:30:55

table, but in 15 grand, spent a few

quid and was being told to f-off.

On

0:30:550:31:03

that note, thank you.

0:31:030:31:08

Now, as you'll know -

when you fill out the census,

0:31:080:31:11

you have to tick a box

to state your national identity.

0:31:110:31:13

At the moment, the options available

are English, Scottish,

0:31:130:31:16

Northern Irish and Welsh.

0:31:160:31:17

But could that be about to change?

0:31:170:31:18

This week a delegation from Cornwall

council came to Westminster to call

0:31:180:31:21

for Cornish identity to be

recognised with their own tick-box

0:31:210:31:24

on the next census.

0:31:240:31:32

Welcome to The Daily Politics. What

are you calling for?

We'd like to

0:31:340:31:40

see Cornish identity recognised the

same as Welsh, Scottish and Irish

0:31:400:31:46

identity. In 2014 the

Conservative-led coalition

0:31:460:31:51

recognised the Cornish as the

national group. They told us we

0:31:510:31:54

would be treated the same as the

Irish, the Scots the Welsh. We

0:31:540:32:00

should have that come forward as

well as the other Celtic groups.

0:32:000:32:04

What material difference will it

make having a tick box on the

0:32:040:32:07

census?

First about fairness. What

is the point about the Government

0:32:070:32:11

saying they will recognise the

Cornish as a group if we are there

0:32:110:32:15

after ignored. It is about

statistics showing if you are

0:32:150:32:20

Cornish in Cornwall you are more

likely to be in a deprived community

0:32:200:32:23

than if you are not. 14% of the

Cornish population wrote Cornish in.

0:32:230:32:27

We want to be able to record

everyone who is Cornish so we can

0:32:270:32:37

understand the factors of our

community.

How do you think the

0:32:370:32:40

campaign is going? Do you think

you'll get your way?

It is a

0:32:400:32:44

difficult campaign,ly not lie.

There's a lot of groups of different

0:32:440:32:48

ethnic origins looking to get some

sort of inclusion within the census.

0:32:480:32:52

So we are working hard. We've put

further information to the accepts

0:32:520:32:56

can. They have promised further

meetings. We are hopeful they will

0:32:560:33:00

follow through. The real key thing

is the UK Government has recognised

0:33:000:33:05

the Cornish officially I was done

through David Cameron, supported by

0:33:050:33:10

the Chancellor, right through to

local MPs. We want to see the action

0:33:100:33:13

that should follow from.

Having done

that, giving them recognition

0:33:130:33:19

officially, what should it mean in

practise?

That is the difficulty

0:33:190:33:22

that quite often Governments will

come under pressure from various

0:33:220:33:26

groups of people who have very

strong identity, as your guest is

0:33:260:33:33

lining there. I suppose gathering

material for the census it would be

0:33:330:33:37

fine to say you can have as many

boxes as you like. People might

0:33:370:33:41

laugh about it. I can see front

columns in the Daily Mail. If people

0:33:410:33:47

have an identity and want to express

it. When you say, oh, this group of

0:33:470:33:53

people, by virtue of being Cornish n

this case, are suffering. How do you

0:33:530:33:57

then balance that against incomers

into the area? It could end up being

0:33:570:34:02

divisive. I wouldn't like to see us

go down the road on that one.

What

0:34:020:34:08

is your response to that?

Frankly,

that is completely wrong. The point

0:34:080:34:14

of the census is to find out all

manner of information so politicians

0:34:140:34:19

can put forward policies and

initiatives. Maybe they find that

0:34:190:34:23

certain things are not what we

anticipate them to be. The reality

0:34:230:34:28

is you need information to go

forward to do what is right for the

0:34:280:34:32

communities and everyone who lives

in those communities.

0:34:320:34:35

Thank you for joining us today.

0:34:350:34:37

For the next half an hour we're

going to be focussing

0:34:380:34:41

even more on Europe.

0:34:410:34:42

We'll be discussing.

0:34:420:34:43

First though here's our guide

to the latest from Europe -

0:34:430:34:46

in just 60 seconds.

0:34:460:34:49

Theresa May began the week

with a Brexit spring in her step

0:34:490:34:52

following that deal to move talks

on to the next stage.

0:34:520:34:59

But by mid-week, she'd suffered her

first defeat in the Commons,

0:34:590:35:02

when MPs voted to give parliament

a legal guarantee of

0:35:020:35:04

a vote on the final deal

struck with Brussels.

0:35:040:35:06

The European Parliament passed

a motion of bringing

0:35:060:35:08

the move to phase two,

but not all MEPs were so supportive.

0:35:080:35:13

Theresa the appeaser has given

in on virtually everything.

0:35:130:35:16

Elsewhere, the new Polish Prime

Minister has said his dream

0:35:160:35:19

is to re-Christianise the EU,

calling for a return to proper

0:35:190:35:22

values in an interview

with a catholic TV channel.

0:35:220:35:25

The European Commission president,

Jean-Claude Juncker,

0:35:250:35:29

is facing an investigation over

a case involving an alleged

0:35:290:35:31

illegal wiretap when he was

Prime Minister of Luxembourg.

0:35:310:35:35

And Emmanuel Macron hosted 50

countries and one cool little kid

0:35:350:35:38

at a climate change summit

in Brussels, warning the world

0:35:380:35:40

is losing the battle.

0:35:400:35:43

A notable absentee from

the gathering was the US

0:35:430:35:46

President Donald Trump -

but don't worry, Arnold

0:35:460:35:48

Schwarzenegger was there instead.

0:35:480:35:54

One of the stories

we saw there was about

0:35:540:35:57

the new Polish Prime Minister -

who wants to 're-Christianise'

0:35:570:36:04

The EU. What do you think about

that?

It is the no-mates category in

0:36:040:36:08

Europe. It is a big country. It has

turned in toward. It does have

0:36:080:36:16

problems within its legal system.

Its politics has become rather

0:36:160:36:21

hideous and views of minorities is

not good. It is funny we are

0:36:210:36:25

focussing on it, given we had this

argument when Germany opposed

0:36:250:36:29

Turkish entry to the EU. If there

was an in fairness to Poland clause

0:36:290:36:34

here, Angela Merkel had a strong

Christian identity. To be Christian

0:36:340:36:40

to go to church. It meant there was

a Christian underpinning to the EU,

0:36:400:36:44

which historically was true. That is

one of the reasons why she kept, the

0:36:440:36:51

Austrians, and others kept the Turks

out. It doesn't feel like it is the

0:36:510:36:55

right language to be talking now.

Do

you agree with that? As Anne has

0:36:550:37:01

said, it seems a far cry from the

days we were talking about accession

0:37:010:37:04

for Turkey. That was an issue during

the EU referendum. Now we have the

0:37:040:37:10

new Prime Minister in Poland saying

he wants the EU to return to

0:37:100:37:16

traditional Christian routes?

A as a

good Catholic boy I ought to welcome

0:37:160:37:21

it. But the politics in Poland has

turned very far to the right and I

0:37:210:37:27

think it's got an unhealthy

undertone. Sounds like it could be

0:37:270:37:30

an unhealthy undertone. I would be

concerned...

0:37:300:37:39

Now European Union leaders have

formally agreed to allow Brexit

0:37:390:37:42

talks to progress to the next phase.

0:37:420:37:48

Lots of issues including trade,

justice and the list goes on. The

0:37:480:37:53

BBC's Adam Fleming caught up with

Brexit negotiate after the...

0:37:530:38:06

You will get your new guidelines.

Your new instructions.

0:38:060:38:10

When do you think we'll have the

transition period agreed?

The

0:38:120:38:18

transition, the beginning of next

year.

And when will we know for

0:38:180:38:23

definite what it is? Will we know by

March?

Wait and see.

0:38:230:38:28

And joining me now to discuss

all this is the MEP Seb Dance,

0:38:340:38:37

the deputy leader of Labour

in the European Parliament.

0:38:370:38:39

He's here in the studio,

whilst the Conservative leader

0:38:390:38:41

in the European Parliament,

Ashley Fox MEP joins

0:38:410:38:43

me from Bristol.

0:38:430:38:45

We want a deep and special

partnership with the European Union.

0:38:490:38:54

During that transition period I

think we want to maintain

0:38:540:38:59

equivalence with the customs union,

equivalence with the single market,

0:38:590:39:02

so that during that two-year period

firms don't need to adjust their

0:39:020:39:06

rules again. And then...

Sorry, does

that mean still taking rules from

0:39:060:39:12

the European Court of Justice and

freedom of movement?

I think that is

0:39:120:39:16

something to be negotiated.

And what

is your view?

Well, it is something

0:39:160:39:22

to be negotiated. I would expect

freedom of movement to continue from

0:39:220:39:28

the two years after we leave to the

end of the transition period.

Right.

0:39:280:39:33

Seb, Ashley says that needs to be

negotiated. Formulating the

0:39:330:39:39

transition will be part of that. It

requires the approval of the

0:39:390:39:43

European Parliament. What is the

mood in Brussels and Strasbourg from

0:39:430:39:48

European MPs?

Well I suppose the

mood is one of caution. There is a

0:39:480:39:55

slight air of relief we've managed

to get some progress now, obviously.

0:39:550:40:00

There was a stage towards the end of

last week where panic stations were

0:40:000:40:04

setting it in because it looked very

bad indeed. At least there is a

0:40:040:40:07

sense of progress. Ultimately the

Government has caved in on so much

0:40:070:40:12

already, the expectation is the

transition period will be another

0:40:120:40:14

example of that and it will be the

status quo and the only difference

0:40:140:40:18

is we will not be able to make any

of the rules, we will be applying.

0:40:180:40:22

In what way has the Government

caved?

Full regulatory agreement,

0:40:220:40:28

that is the post France session

stage. That, in effect, means the

0:40:280:40:34

customs union. In order to get

regulatory agreement covered by the

0:40:340:40:40

Good Friday Agreement you need to

imply meant a lot of the rule rule

0:40:400:40:45

the single market and the customs

union.

Do you accept there is a

0:40:450:40:50

strong possibility that Britain

remains in the customs union for

0:40:500:40:54

many years?

No I think he's talking

complete nonsense there. We will

0:40:540:41:01

leave the customs union and the

single market. We'll have a bespoke

0:41:010:41:06

agreement between the UK and the EU.

It is interesting that the Italian

0:41:060:41:09

Prime Minister has already said we

need a tailor-made solution for the

0:41:090:41:14

United Kingdom. I have to say it

must be difficult being a Labour MEP

0:41:140:41:18

at the moment because you have to be

permanently miserable, permanently

0:41:180:41:22

talk down our country. And Mrs May

has done really well. She's a

0:41:220:41:27

foremid-able politician.

I would

like to know what magical way of

0:41:270:41:31

squaring the circle you have come up

with. That is what the text says.

0:41:310:41:34

Unless you can come one a way of

achieving full alignment through

0:41:340:41:38

another means which does not involve

that. You've had 18 months to come

0:41:380:41:44

up with this magical solution and

nobody has. I am not miserable. I am

0:41:440:41:50

fascinated to how this magic trick

will be performed.

Seb has not

0:41:500:41:55

clearly read the agreement. It says

we will maintain alignment for those

0:41:550:41:59

areas where there is north-south

co-operation. 12 areas, some are

0:41:590:42:06

fair lay minor, by waterways and --

fairly minor, like waterways.

0:42:060:42:15

So there are challenges relating to

agriculture, that we absolutely will

0:42:150:42:19

not be staying in the customs union.

Isn't the truth that actually Labour

0:42:190:42:24

wants to remain in all but name

within the single market and the

0:42:240:42:29

customs union and actually you

welcome the debate around this issue

0:42:290:42:34

of full alignment regarding the

border between Ireland and Northern

0:42:340:42:39

Ireland because this is Labour's

game plan, is not to recognise the

0:42:390:42:43

Brexit referendum outcome.

You can

say game plan all you like. I would

0:42:430:42:46

like to stay in the European Union.

I am not making any bones about

0:42:460:42:49

that. That is obviously up to the

British people, if they decide what

0:42:490:42:52

they get at the end of this process

is not what they voted for on 23rd

0:42:520:42:56

June, I think there is a case to

say, is this what you want to do? It

0:42:560:43:00

is up to me and others like me to

make the case.

Isn't that Labour's

0:43:000:43:04

strategy?

It is to effectively

minimise the effect of what Brexit

0:43:040:43:12

to do. A hard Brexit - that is not

in the country's interest.

There is

0:43:120:43:22

a difficulty that during that

transition period you will not be

0:43:220:43:24

able to strike any free trade

agreements with other countries, not

0:43:240:43:28

EU countries - that is correct,

isn't it?

I anticipate we will be

0:43:280:43:35

able to par take in trade

negotiations. Until the transition

0:43:350:43:39

period is concludes, which I would

imagine to be the first quarter of

0:43:390:43:45

2021 those new trade arrangements

cannot take effect.

Do you know what

0:43:450:43:50

the Government's vision will be for

that trade between Britain and the

0:43:500:43:55

EU?

It has been described as Canada,

plus, plus, plus. If you look at the

0:43:550:44:01

free trade agreen you will see that

98% of tariff lines are abolished

0:44:010:44:06

and set at zero. We see no reason

why it cannot be zero. We want an

0:44:060:44:12

ambitious service chapter on top of.

That

Sptd isn't that the problem -

0:44:120:44:19

when you think what the British

services make up and Canada, I take

0:44:190:44:24

your point about plus, plus, plus,

but the deal with Canada did not

0:44:240:44:30

involve services?

We are in complete

regulatory alignment with the EU.

0:44:300:44:36

All our financial service providers

have equivalent regulation to the

0:44:360:44:39

EU.

That is the point, we are come

from a totally different starting

0:44:390:44:44

point to Canada and therefore, this

idea that it is going to be

0:44:440:44:48

impossible, that it might take eight

years is wishful thinking on that

0:44:480:44:52

part. Not at all. That is the point,

but applied from the other way. We

0:44:520:44:57

have regulatory alignment because we

are in the EU. Those regulations are

0:44:570:45:00

decided by the EU. Do we think we

will be deciding what the European

0:45:000:45:05

financial services regulations will

be once we are outside of the

0:45:050:45:07

institutions that set those? Of

course we won't. But we will be

0:45:070:45:10

applying them. That is the point.

This is not taking back control at

0:45:100:45:13

all. Do

0:45:130:45:20

Do you think they will accept being

part of the court of justice for a

0:45:210:45:26

few years, for a few years in that

sense?

0:45:260:45:29

I think most of them, they're

unhappy about it but have accepted

0:45:340:45:37

it because it's pretty minuscule. I

think Labour is in real difficulty

0:45:370:45:42

because John McDonald said the other

day he wants to not be the single

0:45:420:45:46

market, to be in a different single

market. They bit keep changing their

0:45:460:45:50

position and I think they want to

keep us in the single market and the

0:45:500:45:54

Customs market.

What do you think

phase one agreement has effectively

0:45:540:46:00

done in terms of the customs union?

Fox talks about north-south

0:46:000:46:05

alignment, the DUP ensured it was

east-west, as well. The Good Friday

0:46:050:46:11

Agreement, that's a huge chunk of

what the Brexiter is said we would

0:46:110:46:14

do trade deals on.

How do you see

this term full alignment influencing

0:46:140:46:21

our future relationship? In a

nutshell, it will sort of dictate

0:46:210:46:26

how closely aligned our rules and

regulations and standards are to the

0:46:260:46:29

ones of the EU.

I think it depends.

It's a great phrase, it reminds me

0:46:290:46:35

of the variable geometry. It can be

made to be anything you want it to.

0:46:350:46:41

In the position you're coming from,

it makes no difference, if you want

0:46:410:46:44

full alignment you might as well not

have bothered, but of course you

0:46:440:46:49

wouldn't have bothered as you would

have remained at you've been very

0:46:490:46:52

open stop

0:46:520:46:55

You have to have a language which

allows people to make deals which

0:46:590:47:02

isn't at the same time saying, well,

you might as well just accept

0:47:020:47:06

customs union and single market. You

don't have to be very far on the

0:47:060:47:10

Brexit curve to say those things are

not acceptable to me. I think you're

0:47:100:47:13

right that it's a bit of a forge but

your colleague on the other side in

0:47:130:47:18

Brussels also has a point. You do

actually have to come up with

0:47:180:47:22

instruments which are going to make

this at least as less likely to lead

0:47:220:47:28

to any future big problems, even if

you can't use it to cut every

0:47:280:47:32

problem through right now.

Ashley

Fox, do you think the EU blinked in

0:47:320:47:36

the end in order to get to the end

of phase one?

I don't think either

0:47:360:47:41

side blinked. I think these were

difficult negotiations. Mrs May

0:47:410:47:48

showed herself to be a formidable

negotiator and we've reached a

0:47:480:47:53

compromise. Mrs May is doing a good

job stopping white --

do you think

0:47:530:48:04

David Davis is a good negotiator?

Yes and he's doing a good job. MEPs

0:48:040:48:09

and politicians who pretend to

support their country take delight

0:48:090:48:12

in every small difficulty.

Why

didn't you vote for the motion

0:48:120:48:16

approving progress to phase two. You

say we oppose it.

We voted in favour

0:48:160:48:22

of the paragraph that called...

Because it was full of a whole load

0:48:220:48:29

of nonsense put in. That is not the

purpose of the European Parliament.

0:48:290:48:37

Lets leave it there for the moment.

0:48:370:48:40

There have always been tensions

in the EU between federalists

0:48:400:48:42

who want deeper integration

in the bloc and those

0:48:420:48:44

who value member state

sovereignty above all else.

0:48:440:48:46

Britain traditionally sat

in the second camp -

0:48:460:48:48

but now that we're leaving,

could plans for European federalism

0:48:480:48:51

be moving ahead at pace?

0:48:510:48:52

Today at the European

Council Summit, leaders

0:48:520:48:53

are expected to discuss ways

to deepen eurozone integration.

0:48:530:48:58

On the table is the possible

creation of a budget for

0:48:580:49:00

the eurozone, as well as a finance

minister to represent the bloc.

0:49:000:49:05

Earlier this week the

European Council adopted

0:49:050:49:07

the creation of a permanent

defence and security

0:49:070:49:10

cooperation network,

known as PESCO.

0:49:100:49:13

25 EU states have signed the defence

pact, with only Malta,

0:49:130:49:16

Denmark and the United Kingdom

choosing not to take part.

0:49:160:49:20

PESCO will integrate military

planning, weapons development

0:49:200:49:24

and operations that will rely

on a 5 billion euro defence fund.

0:49:240:49:28

Last week Martin Schulz,

the leader of Germany's centre-left

0:49:280:49:30

Social Democrats or SPD and former

European Parliament President,

0:49:300:49:33

called for the creation

of a United States of Europe.

0:49:330:49:40

Schulz told SDP delegates

that he wanted EU member states

0:49:400:49:43

to sign off on a "constitutional

treaty" committing them to take

0:49:430:49:46

steps towards a federal Europe.

0:49:460:49:52

Do you think it'll catch on, this

idea of a United States of Europe?

0:49:520:49:56

It has always been there in the

minds of advanced federalists. I

0:49:560:50:01

know it depends on what you call a

federalist but it was there and it

0:50:010:50:04

was there for the vision of Europe

stretching back over 20 years. I

0:50:040:50:08

spent a lot of time in Germany

recently looking at Angela Merkel's

0:50:080:50:12

situation and possibly life after

her. Martin Schulz who was sat on a

0:50:120:50:20

low percentage, very bad election,

he need something that from his

0:50:200:50:24

perspective, he's very pro-European,

Brussels is where he's come from

0:50:240:50:28

into this part of German politics.

He wants to offer something bold and

0:50:280:50:32

visionary and I think his view is

you go full tilt for it, stop saying

0:50:320:50:35

you don't want it, that helps you

get on with Emmanuel Macron and you

0:50:350:50:40

can move something forward.

Do you

think greater integration is the way

0:50:400:50:43

it's heading?

In many areas, yes,

and in many it isn't. I think we

0:50:430:50:49

will probably see the emergence of a

multisport Europe.

Do you support

0:50:490:50:56

that quiz Siam at the end of the

day, the EU is member states

and the

0:50:560:51:07

states decide what they are

comfortable with at any given point.

0:51:070:51:10

Frankly, there will always be

federalist and always those who want

0:51:100:51:16

the sovereignty of member states

above all else. The buck stops with

0:51:160:51:20

member states.

As a result of that

conflict, do you see it happening in

0:51:200:51:24

terms of having a budget Minister

and there is already a sort of

0:51:240:51:28

Foreign Minister, but that sort of

close cooperation on defence? In the

0:51:280:51:33

end, national values will trump for

many countries within the EU.

I

0:51:330:51:39

would agree with that. My concern

over this structured colons --

0:51:390:51:43

script should defence is to Nato. If

it results in European nation state

0:51:430:51:50

spending more on defence than that

is to be welcomed. What we don't

0:51:500:51:54

want are several more divisions of

bureaucrats who don't actually add

0:51:540:51:59

to defence capability.

But doesn't

it make sense to have those

0:51:590:52:03

countries remaining in the EU coming

closer together?

For the Eurozone,

0:52:030:52:08

you're probably right. Because the

euro was set up initially very

0:52:080:52:12

badly, with economies that went

convergent and too many states,

0:52:120:52:16

we've seen a great many problems.

They're probably does need to be a

0:52:160:52:21

greater fiscal capacity for the

Eurozone. I'm just delighted the UK

0:52:210:52:24

isn't part of that.

Right. Would you

like to be part of it if Britain

0:52:240:52:29

were to stay in the EU? Would you

have been a fan of being part of

0:52:290:52:34

that closer integration?

Close

integration in defence makes sense

0:52:340:52:38

given the levels of threat we have.

We got to counter this idea that

0:52:380:52:42

it's somehow undermines Nato.

Britain and France for example have

0:52:420:52:45

already conducted operations under a

joint EU flag. That hasn't

0:52:450:52:54

undermined our contribution to Nato

or the security of the North

0:52:540:53:00

Atlantic Treaty organisation in any

way shape or form. You can have

0:53:000:53:03

multiple layers.

Would it be a good

thing?

Know and if this line would

0:53:030:53:11

have been around before the

referendum, I think the referendum

0:53:110:53:14

result would have been even bigger

for Leave. We don't like the idea of

0:53:140:53:19

Brussels taking even more power away

from sovereign Parliament.

Is there

0:53:190:53:24

also a problem with Germany, or it

seems like from Martin Schulz in the

0:53:240:53:32

position, that he is to control

everything within the EU? Do you

0:53:320:53:35

think that's the problem?

Yes,

there's a problem with Germany, they

0:53:350:53:39

run the whole show

0:53:390:53:44

there's a problem with Germany, they

run the whole show?

Germany is

0:53:440:53:50

obviously the economic powerhouse

and has tried. The Franco German

0:53:500:53:57

relationship is not at his strongest

and there is a challenge for France

0:53:570:53:59

but this is not the position of

Angela Merkel. The CDU is likely to

0:53:590:54:05

head the government as we go

forward, it is a position of the

0:54:050:54:08

underbidder.

You take offence of

this idea that Germany runs the

0:54:080:54:14

show.

Germany is the largest economy

full stop incidentally, we were on

0:54:140:54:18

course to be the biggest economy in

the EU if we had stayed. You could

0:54:180:54:21

see Britain -- say that Britain runs

the show but we'll never know. The

0:54:210:54:26

idea Germany runs it is absurd. Look

at it through German eyes. Here we

0:54:260:54:30

have the biggest military power in

the EU leaving at a time when we

0:54:300:54:34

have threats from Russia, less than

concrete assurances from our good

0:54:340:54:41

allies the USA and president trump.

There is a lot of nervousness

0:54:410:54:44

around.

We have Anglo German

military cooperation.

And we will

0:54:440:54:50

continue to.

The layer of

Corporation makes sense will stop

0:54:500:54:59

David Cameron spent a lot of time

negotiating tracks get concessions

0:54:590:55:01

in the EU, spent most of his time in

Bonn.

Will have to say goodbye to

0:55:010:55:09

our two guests.

0:55:090:55:11

Now, were donors almost goners?

0:55:110:55:17

Who writes this?

0:55:170:55:18

A vote in the European Parliament

this week seeking to ban phosphates

0:55:180:55:21

from frozen kebab meat fell just

short of the majority needed.

0:55:210:55:23

There were three votes in it

and the British MEPs did their bit

0:55:230:55:26

to save the frozen vertical meat

spits - or kebabs as they're known

0:55:260:55:29

by us ordinary folk.

0:55:290:55:31

Here's a flavour of the debate.

0:55:310:55:32

TRANSLATION:

Instead of saying

the EU's banning kebabs -

0:55:320:55:34

that's not right -

the media and companies should be

0:55:340:55:37

asking the commission why

the commission is making our food

0:55:370:55:39

less healthy and worse

because that is ultimately

0:55:390:55:41

what the whole story's about.

0:55:410:55:43

TRANSLATION:

The Greens

and the Social Democrats

0:55:430:55:45

are simply spreading panic.

0:55:450:55:47

The reason why that's not

the case is that phosphates

0:55:470:55:49

are allowed in many foods,

but they're obviously naturally

0:55:490:55:51

present in many foods.

0:55:510:55:55

If they were such a great

risk to human health,

0:55:550:55:58

we'd all have been ill long ago.

0:55:580:56:04

And Ibrahim Dogus, the founder

of the British Kebab Awards

0:56:040:56:06

is here to chew this all over.

0:56:060:56:11

Those ponds! Are you relieved?

We

are indeed. We welcome the decision

0:56:110:56:15

taken by the Parliament to let

kebabs be made the way they wear.

0:56:150:56:21

What are phosphate is used in making

Donna kebabs?

Within a very small

0:56:210:56:28

industry in the frozen kebabs

industry stop macro -- they don't

0:56:280:56:34

use phosphates in it. It is to keep

meat moist and give it a bit of

0:56:340:56:40

flavour will stop its an additive

and there are many others used in

0:56:400:56:44

many other industries.

If it was

only being used for a small number

0:56:440:56:47

would it have had that much of an

impact if it has been banned?

Not a

0:56:470:56:52

huge impact in Britain but in

Germany, the frozen give out

0:56:520:56:56

industry is bigger than in Britain.

In Britain we have more restaurants

0:56:560:57:00

and takeaways who make their own

kebabs in-house rather than buying

0:57:000:57:05

frozen. The frozen kebabs is still

part of our industry and it would

0:57:050:57:08

have been bad to ban the use of

phosphates.

Basta band phosphate,

0:57:080:57:14

but how unhealthy is it is to have

phosphates as part of the process?

0:57:140:57:18

The European Food Standards Agency

made an assessment is back in 2013

0:57:180:57:22

and they confirmed there is no

health risk for any products that

0:57:220:57:31

are using phosphates, it doesn't

cause any direct health risks to

0:57:310:57:35

consumers at all-star white are you

celebrating with a big plate of

0:57:350:57:44

devouts

everybody is feeling hungry

at this moment. What's your view on

0:57:440:57:49

this great Donna kebabs debate?

And

not a great eater of them but if

0:57:490:57:55

you're happy, I'm happy.

Do you eat

kebabs honest?

I have from my

0:57:550:58:04

teenage son so if they could get rid

of the ones with as many additives

0:58:040:58:09

as possible I'd be happier, if you

could nudge the industry in that

0:58:090:58:13

direction.

British MEPs helped the

industry here. They are forming a

0:58:130:58:20

function in the EU.

Two more years

to go and they can carry on doing

0:58:200:58:24

good work and then our own

Parliament can sort it out.

You

0:58:240:58:27

can't underestimate the work they're

doing at the moment. Did you lobby

0:58:270:58:30

for this?

No direct lobbying, but we

knew our MEPs would be sensible

0:58:300:58:34

people.

What made you think that

exactly?

Most of our MEPs have done

0:58:340:58:42

great work for many years so we

expected them to

0:58:420:58:47

great work for many years so we

expected them to.

0:58:470:58:50

That's all for now, thanks

to all my guests, and goodbye.

0:58:500:58:54

Jo Coburn is joined by Andrew Pierce and Anne McElvoy to examine what happens next as EU leaders get ready to formally agree to start the next phase of Brexit talk, and find out why everyone is talking about Bitcoin.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS