09/01/2018 Daily Politics


09/01/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by former Foreign Office minister and anti-Brexit campaigner Lord Malloch-Brown to discuss the Cabinet reshuffle and his plans to try and keep the UK in the EU.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome

to the Daily Politics.

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Justine Greening quits

the Cabinet rather than being

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forced to do another job.

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And she wasn't the only Secretary

of State to put their foot down.

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What does the reshuffle say

about Theresa May's authority?

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Theresa May's new top team

meet for the first time.

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Today, she's reshuffling the junior

ranks of her Government.

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We'll have the latest.

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How to lose a job

and alienate people.

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Last month, Toby Young

was was handed a role

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overseeing universities.

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This morning, he resigned

after a furore over controversial

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tweets and newspaper articles.

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Should he have been given

the job in the first place?

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And - he's been meeting

and greeting, and, of course,

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tweeting world leaders as President

of the United States

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for almost a year now.

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So, what should the world

make of Donald Trump?

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All that in the next hour.

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And with us for the whole

of the programme today

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is Mark Malloch Brown.

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He's a member of the House

of Lords and a former GOAT -

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he was a minister in

Gordon Brown's Government

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Of All The Talents, and a United

Nations Deputy Secretary General.

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We love using that phrase!

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He now leads Best for Britain -

an organisation

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which aims to co-ordinate

pro-Remain groups to oppose

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the Government's Brexit strategy.

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Welcome to the programme.

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First today, let's take a look

at how the papers reacted

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to the Cabinet reshuffle -

and it won't make happy

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reading in Downing Street.

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The Times leads on the resignation

of Justine Greening,

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calling the reshuffle "shambolic",

and saying it laid bare

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"Theresa May's lack of authority".

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The Guardian also highlights

Ms Greening's departure,

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and says the Prime Minister has been

accused of "giving in to the boys"

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after Jeremy Hunt refused to move

from Health Secretary

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to the business department.

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Mr Hunt's refusal

also leads The Mail.

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The paper says Theresa May's

reshuffle plans were "torpedoed",

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including her desire to remove

former leadership rival

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Andrea Leadsom from the Cabinet.

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And the Daily Telegraph recalls

Harold Macmillan's "Night

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of the Long Knives" by describing

this reshuffle as a "false start":

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"The night of the blunt stiletto".

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We're joined now by our

Political Editor, Laura Kuenssberg.

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It was never billed as being a

completely dramatic reshuffle, but

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actually the papers have concluded

it was a damp squib. Do you agree?

I

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think it was bungled in some

aspects. It was never meant to be

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big and dramatic but there was quite

a lot of drama, the drum was

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unintentional, because ministers, as

they sometimes do in reshuffle some

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even when prime ministers are at the

peak of their powers, ministers did

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not like what they were being

offered. If Downing Street does not

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do their homework and test the

waters with ministers, would they be

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willing to move or not, this is what

happens - they end up sitting around

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the Cabinet table this morning with

Theresa May looking at colleagues

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that she didn't want to be in those

seats. It has also made a lot of

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serving people in the Government,

not just oriented is, quite

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disgruntled, particularly at how

Justine Greening was treated. She is

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very determined and robust. Somebody

told me yesterday originally when

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she was offered the job of being

Secretary of State for the

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Department for International

Development under David Cameron, she

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was so cross that she staged a sit

in in number ten before eventually

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accepting the job! She knows her own

mind and she is very determined.

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Lots of Tory MPs are asking this

morning, why was Jeremy Hunt allowed

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to argue for his job and say in

post?

She did for hours, apparently?

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He went in in the night and emerged

in the dark! Justine Greening was

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not allowed to do the same. She

could become somebody rather useful

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to somebody like Mark Malloch Brown

today. She is a prominent Remainer,

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she has won a London marginal seat,

not many of them in the Tory Party

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these days. That could be storing up

trouble for the future, she is very

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important.

Before we go on to the

other moves and what it says about

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Theresa May's authority, Justine

Greening, will she join the ranks of

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what have been described, some

people find rather offensively,

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mutineers on the backbenches?

She

will be careful about what you does

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next. She

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next. She says she cares about

social mobility most, that is why

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she wants to stay in that job.

She

was the first comprehensively

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educated Education Secretary.

She

only launched her social mobility

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strategy less than a month ago, the

ink is hardly dry on this very big

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piece of work that was meant to work

in tandem with Theresa May's stated

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goal of making the country work for

everyone. So she cares very deeply

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about that. And from conversations

with those who understand her

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thinking, she wants to make that her

focus. That said, she is a buddy who

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cares very much about our future

relationship with the European

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Union. It may well be that some of

her former colleagues manage to

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entice her to be on the backbenches

with those group of awkward

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Remainers.

What about Theresa May's

authority? Reshuffles can

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historically be very difficult and

people who don't always move. What

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does this say about a Government

which is read by doing and starting

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the New Year on a fresh footing, and

she hasn't been able to do the

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things that she wanted?

She had the

authority to make her move, and that

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wasn't the case last year, she

wasn't even strong enough to have a

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go at all of this. What they

discovered yesterday is that she

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wasn't strong enough to be able to

deliver what she wanted. Suggestions

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that she may did not come to pass.

Today, however, it is important,

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maybe not so much to the public

perception, because frankly there

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will be a lot of people walking up

and down Downing Street who even

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devoted Daily Politics viewers may

never even have heard of! But for

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the Tory Party and the succession

and renewal of the Next Generation,

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today is very important in terms of

bringing other people forward. We

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know already that Dominic Raab has

moved the housing.

We have just seen

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Alok Sharma going through the front

door. There is Dominic Raab. He has

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been given the housing brief.

He may

be rather disappointed not to be in

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the Cabinet, some people who know

him well are suggesting. Jo Johnson

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is also going into number ten, the

current science and Higher Education

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Minister.

We don't quite know what

is happening with him.

Today we will

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see a lot of new intake, or newish

intake MPs coming into Government.

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Some of them from the 2015 intake.

Ten new names were suggested to me,

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I'm not going to read them all out.

Some people who Daily Politics

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viewers will have seen, MPs like

only Dowden, Suella Fernandes, a

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prominent Euro sceptic, Jo

Churchill, one of the Suffolk MPs.

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Muzarabani, a prominent Brexiteer.

We will see by the end of the day if

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Theresa May has been able to achieve

the second aim of her reshuffle,

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which was putting forward a new team

further down the ranks. But just to

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close, a quiz question, he said in

2008, by the end of my first

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Parliament, I want all -- a third of

my ministers to be female. Theresa

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May and her allies are saying the

same thing. Bringing people from the

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lower ranks is one thing, but

whether that changes the top table

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in years to come, we will see.

Thank

you.

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Now, what were the big moves

in yesterday's reshuffle?

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Education Secretary Justine Greening

was the surprise departure last

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night when she opted to leave

the Cabinet rather than be moved

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to a different department.

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She will be replaced

by Damian Hinds.

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David Lidington moves

in to replace Damian Green

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as Cabinet Office Minister,

after Mr Green was forced

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to resign before Christmas.

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He will not, however,

take over the title

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of First Secretary of State -

a position which was the Prime

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Minister's de facto deputy.

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Mr Lidington will be replaced

as Justice Secretary by David Gauke,

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who in turn vacates the Work

and Pensions Department

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in favour of Esther McVey,

who returned to the Commons in last

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year's general election.

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Patrick McLoughlin handed over

the mantle of Conservative Party

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Chairman to Brandon Lewis.

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And Northern Ireland Secretary James

Brokenshire stood down

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citing health reasons,

and will be replaced

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by Culture Secretary Karen Bradley.

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Matthew Hancock gets his first

Cabinet post by taking

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over her department.

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Jeremy Hunt refused to move

from the Department of Health,

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and adds extra responsibility

for social care to his brief.

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And Communities Secretary

Sajid Javid also adds

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housing to his title.

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The remaining Cabinet

line-up remains unchanged,

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with Amber Rudd staying

at the Home Office, Boris Johnson

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as Foreign Secretary,

and Philip Hammond as Chancellor.

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And we're joined now

by the new Deputy Chairman

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of the Conservative Party,

James Cleverley.

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Welcome to the Daily Politics,

congratulations on your appointment.

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This reshuffle was supposed to

underlying Theresa May's authority,

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but in fact it has undermined it.

How has her authority been

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strengthened?

This reshuffle was

about bringing new talent into

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Government, we have seen that, we

have seen promotions in the Cabinet.

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To whom? Who is the new talent who

has come into the Cabinet?

Well, you

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know... We have a number of new

women that have come around the

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Cabinet table, who are attending

Cabinet for the first time. Claire

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is coming through in the Cabinet. We

are also seeing, as Laura was

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saying, we have also seen in some of

the less high-profile roles,

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particularly here at the vice

chairmanship of the party, which we

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were discussing yesterday, a lot of

new people coming through. We are

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going to see new faces coming into

Government.

At the lower levels, the

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ministerial ranks below Cabinet. But

at Cabinet, there hasn't been the

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complete change that we were

promised. Not at the top three

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conditions. Because Theresa May

couldn't move people like Jeremy

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Hunt and she couldn't persuade

Justine Greening to take the

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position at work and pensions. How

would you judge Theresa May's

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authority this morning?

You are

saying about what was promised. I

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don't know who might have been

promising things to you, but the

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decisions about reshuffles are taken

at number ten, and they are kept

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private at number ten until the

announcement is made. There's been a

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huge amount of speculation, there

always is when reshuffles come

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along. It may well be that you feel

that the changes haven't met your

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expectations.

They were the changes

that we expected because they came

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from people around the Prime

Minister. I mean, do you think the

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media has been mishandled in this

instance?

I think there have been a

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lot of people in the media, and this

always happens, a lot of people in

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the media speculate about who might

be getting promoted, who might be

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moving. And it's always the case, I

remember a number of reshuffles when

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people said, that's not what we

excited, as if somehow it is the

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fault of Government. What we have

around the Cabinet table, we have a

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really good mix of experience. We've

got a really, really strong team.

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And also what we are seeing now is

people being brought up into

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Government. And I'm Rulli positive

about these changes.

The former

0:12:020:12:07

Conservative leader Iain Duncan

Smith said Downing Street should

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have managed the media more

carefully in the run-up to this

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reshuffle. Do you agree with him?

No, I think it's impossible to

0:12:120:12:18

constantly chase the speculation. If

you try and back down every single

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piece of speculation you wouldn't

have time to get any real work done.

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Chris Grayling, it was tweeted out

by the Conservative headquarters

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that he was going to be the chairman

and that was obviously completely

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wrong.

Is actually proves my point.

The BBC, if I remember rightly,

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confirmed for definite that Chris

Grayling was going to be... The

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Conservative by the German, somebody

took what they believe to be an

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authoritative source who got it

wrong -- the Conservative Party

0:12:470:12:50

chairman.

Didn't they think of

calling number ten to find it out

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was it look that is the point of

chasing speculation, there is lots

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of speculation

we are never going to

chase every bit of gossip and

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speculation and it would be wrong to

do so.

Whose fault is it that the

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headlines are so awful for Theresa

May and the Government this morning?

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I don't think we should be too

worried about the headlines. Today

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and yesterday were about reshuffle.

And that always causes lots of froth

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and drama in the media. What really

is important is the delivery of

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Government. Today's headlines are

what they. Tomorrow and onwards we

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will be getting the really important

stuff, which is about what we are

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doing and delivering in Government.

Let's talk about Deliveroo. If this

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was going to be a reboot, if you

have said this is a new Cabinet,

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although the faces haven't really

changed that much -- let's talk

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about the reshuffle. What kind of

policy can you expect from the new

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Cabinet?

What we are doing is

delivering on the agenda that the

0:13:450:13:48

Prime Minister is set out when she

stood on the steps of Downing

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Street.

There is no change of policy

is?

It is never about no change, the

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fundamental for loss of the about

what the Prime Minister and the

0:14:000:14:04

ministerial team is doing government

remains the same, about delivering

0:14:040:14:08

opportunities of the fundamental for

loss of view. It's about helping

0:14:080:14:10

people get on the housing ladder,

grabbing the employment, keeping the

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economy on track, delivering a good

Brexit. These things in job because

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they are the fundamentals, the

foundation stones upon which the

0:14:190:14:22

detail is built, they will remain

the same. Some of the details will

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change, that always happens. But the

fundamental things remain the same

0:14:250:14:28

no matter what.

Reshuffles are

always built up in the BDO, in

0:14:280:14:33

Westminster, and in the bubble, to

some extent, this is an event for

0:14:330:14:36

us. Do you think this has been badly

handled?

There has been a pattern

0:14:360:14:42

with Theresa May, people get out

there and overpromise and then her

0:14:420:14:46

"Gypsy and what's delivered time

after time -- and her own

0:14:460:14:52

cautiousness chips in. James,

congratulations on your new role.

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Fundamentally, this is a reshuffle

where the boys kept their jobs and

0:14:570:15:00

probably the greatest representative

of diversity in real performance

0:15:000:15:06

terms around the Cabinet table,

Justine Greening, lost hers.

How

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much of a loss is Justine Greening

to the Cabinet?

0:15:100:15:16

It is never good news when you lose

a good minister from Government.

0:15:160:15:20

Justin had her own reasons, I

haven't been able to talk to her...

0:15:200:15:25

She didn't want the work and

pensions brief, do you think it was

0:15:250:15:29

a loss and should Theresa May have

tried harder to keep her?

As I say,

0:15:290:15:32

I wasn't privy to the conversations.

It is a shame, I think she is a

0:15:320:15:36

fantastic MP and I don't know the

reasons why she was not able to stay

0:15:360:15:40

in Government.

Was she doing a good

job, in your mind, as Education

0:15:400:15:45

Secretary?

The problem with recent

-- reshuffles us that there is

0:15:450:15:52

always more talent than there are

seats.

But what she doing a good

0:15:520:15:57

job?

Yes, I think so. The question

is, is there somebody that might do

0:15:570:16:03

a better job, might she be better

deployed doing a different job? It

0:16:030:16:06

is not about if it was a good job, I

think she was doing a good job.

0:16:060:16:11

There are a myriad of complicated

moving parts in a reshuffle and they

0:16:110:16:14

all into play.

How do you think it

looks when there have been promises

0:16:140:16:19

made by Theresa May about wanted to

have a Government that better

0:16:190:16:24

reflects society at large, when you

lose somebody like Justine Greening,

0:16:240:16:31

comprehensive re-educated, a

campaigner in terms of gay rights,

0:16:310:16:35

leaving the Government in that way,

and in terms of the number of women

0:16:350:16:38

there has been no net increase in

women in Cabinet posts?

As I say,

0:16:380:16:44

the changes to the cabinet, I think,

are taking us in the right

0:16:440:16:49

direction.

There are no more women

in full Cabinet posts?

We have ten

0:16:490:16:55

women attending cabinet. There has

got to be a degree of stability in

0:16:550:16:58

the Cabinet. We are in Government.

This is not one of the Labour

0:16:580:17:02

Party's Mickey Mouse Shadow Cabinet

reshuffles. These are people running

0:17:020:17:05

departments, where you have to have

a degree of stability. But we do

0:17:050:17:09

have a fantastic mix of people. We

have Esther McVey now, who has come

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into Cabinet.

You don't think she

represents an increase in diversity,

0:17:150:17:23

I think you would be wrong.

Do think

she will become passionate in her

0:17:230:17:27

role?

I think she will be. From what

I know of her, and I don't know here

0:17:270:17:32

as well as some colleagues that

served with her previously, she is

0:17:320:17:35

absolutely passionate about

delivering the things we are all

0:17:350:17:39

passionate about, lifting people out

of hardship, giving people

0:17:390:17:43

opportunities...

She was very

criticised by the disability lobby

0:17:430:17:45

for her work in that role in the

last Government?

She was very

0:17:450:17:52

aggressively and nastily targeted by

people like John McDonnell, who used

0:17:520:17:57

very appalling and violent,

misogynistic language against her. I

0:17:570:18:03

think that unfortunately fuelled a

bit of a hue and cry.

The criticism

0:18:030:18:09

from disability rights campaigners

preceded the comments made by John

0:18:090:18:12

McDonnell.

I know when she

previously worked in the Department

0:18:120:18:15

for Work and Pensions she was

absolutely passionate about using

0:18:150:18:18

her role in that department to help

people get on in life. I think she

0:18:180:18:22

will be absolutely fantastic in that

role.

Let's move on to the party

0:18:220:18:27

itself. This is the role you are

going to be given. Do you think this

0:18:270:18:30

reshuffle was more about developing

the party, about the next election,

0:18:300:18:35

than it was about government policy,

and hence the ranks have been

0:18:350:18:39

swelled by the likes of you and your

colleagues at the party level?

I

0:18:390:18:44

think there is always a balance

between the work of Government and

0:18:440:18:49

how the mechanics, the party machine

works. They both need to work. A

0:18:490:18:54

good party machine helps government

deliver, and a government delivering

0:18:540:18:59

helps us with elections.

Has the

party machine been failing because

0:18:590:19:02

of what happened in the last

election?

The party machine

0:19:020:19:05

delivered the highest vote in a

generation.

How many members has the

0:19:050:19:11

party got?

I genuinely don't know at

the moment.

Why don't you know? Why

0:19:110:19:16

is it so difficult to get numbers of

Conservative Party members from

0:19:160:19:20

anybody in the Conservative Party?

Because we are, in the party, our

0:19:200:19:27

philosophy is that we believe in

autonomy, and party membership is

0:19:270:19:33

owned that the constituency level.

It is not that easy to compile

0:19:330:19:38

up-to-date and accurate figures. The

more important point is that the

0:19:380:19:41

party machine is a good machine and

it did well at the last general

0:19:410:19:45

election. The Labour Party did very

well, and sometimes the success that

0:19:450:19:49

we achieved is slightly overshadowed

and hidden. But it is about building

0:19:490:19:52

on that success and making sure that

we are absolutely ready to go into

0:19:520:19:56

the local elections in the spring of

this year, and other elections, and,

0:19:560:20:02

ultimately, the general election.

John Strafford, at the Campaign For

0:20:020:20:06

Conservative Democracy said that

membership could be as low as

0:20:060:20:10

70,000. Below 100,000 would make the

Conservative Party the fourth

0:20:100:20:16

largest party, behind the Liberal

Democrats, the SNP and certainly

0:20:160:20:20

behind Labour. Can you win an

election on that number of members?

0:20:200:20:24

I now work at Central office and I

don't have the figures at my

0:20:240:20:27

fingertips.

Would you be worried by

that? He is a man on the ground,

0:20:270:20:32

working at grassroots level for

years.

John cannot know what the

0:20:320:20:36

figures are. He may be speculating,

it could be an educated guess. The

0:20:360:20:41

point I am making is, whatever the

membership is, whatever the

0:20:410:20:47

functions at Central office have

been, at the last general election

0:20:470:20:50

we delivered the largest vote share

and the largest number of votes in a

0:20:500:20:55

generation. I am not saying it is

perfect, of course it isn't, and

0:20:550:20:59

there are things to do, but it is a

good organisation and working well.

0:20:590:21:02

Our job is to make it work better.

Will you publish the figures? Grant

0:21:020:21:08

Shapps said they should be published

when you have them?

I am the deputy

0:21:080:21:12

party chairman, that would need to

be signed off by my boss.

Do you

0:21:120:21:17

think they should be made public?

There are reasons to and fro.

0:21:170:21:21

Members are not the only thing. We

have a huge number of supporters and

0:21:210:21:26

activists who, for whatever reason,

are not party members, they don't

0:21:260:21:30

want to sign up. I don't think we

should disregard their contribution

0:21:300:21:34

because they don't put their

signature on a form.

Mark Malloch

0:21:340:21:37

Brown, we focused on Justine

Greening and talked about the

0:21:370:21:40

diversity and perhaps how Theresa

May's government has not reached the

0:21:400:21:46

aspiration of what she wanted.

Esther McVey is a new cabinet

0:21:460:21:50

minister, a woman in the Department

for Work and Pensions, do you

0:21:500:21:52

welcome that?

She knows a bit about

unemployment, having lost her seat!

0:21:520:21:57

Yes, of course. I don't know her at

all, but it is great to have her

0:21:570:22:01

there. The fundamental point that

you have just pressed James Wan,

0:22:010:22:06

this is a party which is shrinking,

it is smaller than a lot of NGOs,

0:22:060:22:12

NGOs looking at the historic houses

and animal rights, a modern social

0:22:120:22:19

media movement has 1.7 million

members. This is a shrinking party

0:22:190:22:22

that increasingly is out of touch, I

would argue, with the changing

0:22:220:22:27

politics.

But terms of vote share,

like the Labour Party, but slightly

0:22:270:22:33

bigger, because they did win the

election, albeit losing a majority,

0:22:330:22:38

42%?

The two main parties have a

bigger share of the vote than they

0:22:380:22:41

had in a generation, which I think

is a last hurrah as party politics

0:22:410:22:46

begins to fundamentally realign

around the newer agendas around

0:22:460:22:49

there.

In terms of messaging from

the party, are you pleased that Toby

0:22:490:22:53

Young has resigned?

I think it was

increasingly clear that was the

0:22:530:22:58

right choice. I think there were

many very credible reasons for him

0:22:580:23:03

to be appointed in the first place,

he had some fantastic work with free

0:23:030:23:08

schools. But he has put out

intentionally controversial ideas

0:23:080:23:14

into the public to stimulate debate.

That is what he was paid to do at

0:23:140:23:17

the time. Clearly, that overshadowed

the good work he did more recently

0:23:170:23:20

on education.

But there are reams of

tweets and articles that have now

0:23:200:23:26

been published. Should he have been

appointed on the basis of somebody

0:23:260:23:29

that talked about education, saying

the Government would have to repeal

0:23:290:23:38

the equality act because any exam

not accessible to a troglodyte with

0:23:380:23:42

a mental age of six would be judged

to be elated. -- elitist. Should

0:23:420:23:48

anybody like that have been

appointed?

Toby's job at the time he

0:23:480:23:53

wrote that was to stimulate debate

and argument and be provocative.

0:23:530:23:57

That is what he was meant to do. In

this instance, it was to rely more

0:23:570:24:03

heavily on the education experience

he developed with free schools. On

0:24:030:24:08

balance, it was clear that one

overshadowed the other.

Thank you.

0:24:080:24:14

Now, last month, he was appointed

to a Government quango

0:24:140:24:16

overseeing universities.

0:24:160:24:17

Today, Toby Young has resigned

from that role after a furore over

0:24:170:24:20

tweets and newspaper articles that

disparaged women, the disabled

0:24:200:24:22

and the working class.

0:24:220:24:24

Defenders point to Toby Young's

record as an educationalist

0:24:240:24:27

and founder of the West London Free

School, though many MPs

0:24:270:24:30

were unimpressed when his

appointment was discussed

0:24:300:24:31

in the Commons yesterday afternoon.

0:24:310:24:36

I am flabbergasted and it is

beyond me how the minister can stand

0:24:360:24:39

up and support this appointment.

0:24:390:24:44

As the Prime Minister said

yesterday, Mr Young,

0:24:440:24:46

since these comments and tweets,

has been doing exceedingly good work

0:24:460:24:49

in our education system.

0:24:490:24:56

And it is for that reason

that he is well placed to make

0:24:560:24:59

a valuable contribution to the work

of the board of the office

0:24:590:25:02

for students, where he will continue

to do much more to support

0:25:020:25:05

the disadvantaged than some

many of his armchair critics.

0:25:050:25:08

On this one, I think things

have gone badly wrong.

0:25:080:25:14

I'm not talking about the things

that he has done on Twitter.

0:25:140:25:18

What I am more concerned

about are some quite dark articles,

0:25:180:25:21

where he talks about the disabled,

where he talks about

0:25:210:25:23

the working class, much more

significantly in 2015.

0:25:230:25:27

And I have the article

here, on what he calls

0:25:270:25:29

"progressive eugenics".

0:25:290:25:33

Now, I find this incredibly dark

and very dangerous stuff.

0:25:330:25:39

I feel that Mr Young's comments do

cross a line and they are indicative

0:25:390:25:42

of an underlying character.

0:25:420:25:44

Clearly, there is a case

for the board revisiting

0:25:440:25:46

and asking him to step down.

0:25:460:25:51

And we're joined by

Labour's Dawn Butler,

0:25:510:25:53

who raised the urgent question.

0:25:530:25:57

And Freddie Gray, Deputy Editor

of The Spectator, where Toby Young

0:25:570:26:00

shared his resignation this morning.

0:26:000:26:04

Welcome to both of you. So, are you

pleased he has resigned?

I am

0:26:040:26:09

pleased he has resigned, it was the

right thing to do. It should have

0:26:090:26:12

been done earlier. I don't think he

should have resigned, I think the

0:26:120:26:17

Prime Minister should have been

stronger and said it was an

0:26:170:26:19

inappropriate appointment and he

should step down.

What do you say to

0:26:190:26:23

that? Looking at the articles, which

have been in the public domain,

0:26:230:26:27

along with thousands and thousands

of tweets that Toby Young deleted

0:26:270:26:32

rather hurriedly over the last week

or so, was it a mistake to have

0:26:320:26:35

appointed him in the first place?

I

don't actually know if it was a

0:26:350:26:40

mistake to have appointed him, what

I do think it is is sad. It has

0:26:400:26:44

obviously been proved to be a

mistake in that he has now had to

0:26:440:26:47

stand down. The point about it is

that it is sad, in that Toby has

0:26:470:26:52

changed as a person, he has talked a

lot about those changes, and he has

0:26:520:26:56

been bang to rights for things he

said in the past, which he said was

0:26:560:27:01

foolish, and which he said now are

plain wrong.

They are not in the

0:27:010:27:05

distant past. Some of them were said

in 2015. I mean, this article on

0:27:050:27:13

progressive eugenics, it was

referred to there by Robert Halford,

0:27:130:27:15

he proposed that poorer people

should be helped to choose which

0:27:150:27:19

embryos were allowed to develop

based on intelligence. Do you think

0:27:190:27:22

he has changed that much?

I disagree

with him very strongly there, and I

0:27:220:27:26

remember doing so at the time. I do

think that his opinions are complex,

0:27:260:27:31

and he is a convex person. In terms

of being qualified for this job,

0:27:310:27:35

we're not talking about him being

minister for health, we are talking

0:27:350:27:39

about him being 1/15 of a quango

that, up until recently, nobody had

0:27:390:27:44

heard of. I don't think that anybody

should be deemed unqualified,

0:27:440:27:49

because he is qualified, and he has

set up successful free schools.

Dawn

0:27:490:27:53

Butler, do you think people can

change? You sat in the studio with

0:27:530:27:57

me when we were talking about Jarrod

O'Mara, who you said was on a

0:27:570:28:01

journey and was changing, from some

of the things he had written in the

0:28:010:28:04

past. Do you think people can

fundamentally change or that

0:28:040:28:08

everything Toby has said and written

in the past marks him out for this

0:28:080:28:13

sort of job?

The difference between

Jarrod and Toby was that Jarrod was

0:28:130:28:22

published, and Toby was promoted.

The Government promoted Toby to

0:28:220:28:27

this, a paid, public appointment. We

need to establish if due process was

0:28:270:28:31

taken place, whether there was due

diligence in the process. We also

0:28:310:28:34

need to establish whether he was

suitable. It has come to light that

0:28:340:28:38

evidently he was not suitable. And

whether he was promoted on merit, or

0:28:380:28:43

the fact that he was mates with a

certain group of people.

Let's talk

0:28:430:28:47

about suitability. Freddie claims

that Toby Young was suitable because

0:28:470:28:50

of his background in education

recently. A founder member of a free

0:28:500:28:56

school, and it was in that capacity

that he was going to take up this

0:28:560:29:01

role, on the regulatory body. Do you

think he was qualified for that job?

0:29:010:29:06

There are over 800 free schools in

the UK, so there are a plethora of

0:29:060:29:10

people that were qualified. There is

also...

Was he qualified?

Well, he

0:29:100:29:16

wasn't suitable. Suitability, there

are the Nolan principles and the

0:29:160:29:21

seven principles of holding public

office. He has failed in all of

0:29:210:29:24

those principles. So, he wasn't

suitable for the position to be

0:29:240:29:28

appointed in the first place. It

shows a serious lack of judgment by

0:29:280:29:31

the Prime Minister, by Boris

Johnson, by Joe Johnson, defending

0:29:310:29:35

him in the house yesterday.

That is

the point, you cannot separate what

0:29:350:29:39

he may do professionally in terms of

education and the man himself on the

0:29:390:29:42

basis of what he said?

0:29:420:29:47

Yes, but I would emphasise again

that this is a minor role on a

0:29:470:29:51

quango, if we went through every

single Government quango and

0:29:510:29:54

analysed what each of them had said

and done on social media, you would

0:29:540:29:58

find yourself throwing out a lot of

people based on their character.

To

0:29:580:30:02

delete 40,000 tweets is an enormous

number of tweets to delete. Just 13

0:30:020:30:08

months ago, somebody put a sexual

harassment document on his desk and

0:30:080:30:13

underlined sections of it in red.

That shows you the type of mind and

0:30:130:30:18

character that he is all stop and I

am not saying...

You are not

0:30:180:30:23

objecting to Toby because of his

tweets, you are objecting to him

0:30:230:30:29

because he is a Conservative who is

on a quango.

Is that true? Is it

0:30:290:30:38

because he is a Tory

0:30:380:30:43

on a quango.

Is that true? Is it

because he is a Tory, in right-wing

0:30:430:30:45

Conservative?

That's absolutely

ridiculous. I am sat on a committee

0:30:450:30:49

in Parliament to change the culture

of Parliament in regards to sexual

0:30:490:30:53

harassment, I am on that committee

just two months, after two months I

0:30:530:30:57

can't stand up and speak out against

somebody with such views then I'm

0:30:570:31:00

not doing a good job. I'm not saying

that people can't go on a journey

0:31:000:31:04

and change they can.

You don't seem

to grant him the right to have a

0:31:040:31:10

journey.

He defended what he said,

saying exactly what you have just

0:31:100:31:15

said.

He said that he had said

childish things and they were wrong.

0:31:150:31:20

It is more than childish, isn't it?

These are deeply offensive. He has

0:31:200:31:24

justified it by saying that he was a

journalist provocateur. Well,

0:31:240:31:30

certainly, and it's not just Labour

politicians who have criticised him.

0:31:300:31:34

Robert Halfon, Sarah Wollaston,

others within the Conservative

0:31:340:31:37

Party. Does that not diminish your

argument that this is somehow a

0:31:370:31:41

Labour war?

I think there has been a

witchhunt, you know? There has been

0:31:410:31:47

a attempt to produce Toby in the

court of public opinion, and it has

0:31:470:31:51

worked.

He is in his 50s, it's a bit

late to grow up! I think his habits

0:31:510:31:57

are probably pretty formed! I do

have some sympathy around the fact,

0:31:570:32:01

being an ex-journalist myself,

journalism is about being

0:32:010:32:05

provocative, if we were all held to

account for everything we had said

0:32:050:32:08

as a journalist, we wouldn't get

anywhere. The Spectator has quite a

0:32:080:32:12

staple of people who have said

extremely, including Boris Johnson

0:32:120:32:16

at earlier stages, and die as a

reader have often enjoyed them.

0:32:160:32:20

Should

0:32:200:32:25

Should they be banned from holding

the sort of jobs?

Public standards

0:32:250:32:28

have moved at the same time as

people in social media have become

0:32:280:32:30

more extreme to capture attention.

Toby Young is properly a victim of

0:32:300:32:34

raising standards of what we expect

of people at a time that to keep his

0:32:340:32:39

audiences and readership he if

anything has had to become more

0:32:390:32:44

extreme and what he has said.

It is

not enough to apologise and distance

0:32:440:32:48

yourself from what you as a

journalist might have said and done"

0:32:480:32:52

he should have had the

self-awareness to say, go great I'm

0:32:520:32:57

the kind of provocative journalist

who better stick to my trade, I'm

0:32:570:33:01

going to

have a difficult time of it

if I have to move into public life.

0:33:010:33:05

Thank you.

0:33:050:33:07

It's approaching a year

since his inauguration,

0:33:070:33:09

and those who suggested that

Presidential office would change

0:33:090:33:11

the reality TV star and billionaire

have been proven wrong.

0:33:110:33:14

The account of a chaotic

and dysfunctional White House

0:33:140:33:16

in the book Fire and Fury,

published last week,

0:33:160:33:18

provided yet more evidence that

Donald Trump in no conventional US

0:33:180:33:20

President.

0:33:200:33:23

And, as the rest of the world has

discovered over the last 12 months,

0:33:230:33:26

he's not a man who does diplomacy.

0:33:260:33:28

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

0:33:280:33:33

It's going to be on the America

first. America first -- only

0:33:340:33:41

America.

Right from the beginning,

Donald Trump's approach to

0:33:410:33:47

international relations has been

somewhat unorthodox. A diplomatic

0:33:470:33:51

insurgent, he pulled out of

international deals on trade and

0:33:510:33:55

climate change, denounced the 2015

nuclear deal with Iran, and broke

0:33:550:33:59

decades of policy by declaring

Jerusalem the capital of Israel.

He

0:33:590:34:03

absolutely was certain in his

language that he wanted to put

0:34:030:34:07

America's interests first on the

global stage. This meant

0:34:070:34:12

renegotiating multilateral

relationships, and really focusing

0:34:120:34:16

instead on bilateral partnerships.

He also wanted to renegotiate

0:34:160:34:19

America's relationship with Russia.

He thought he could for a much

0:34:190:34:25

stronger bond with President Putin.

A relationship that continues to

0:34:250:34:29

cause headaches, as at the official

investigation into collusion between

0:34:290:34:33

the trunk campaign and the Kremlin

intensifies. There was one subject

0:34:330:34:39

that he continued to return to again

and again.

We cannot continue to

0:34:390:34:44

allow China... They have taken our

money, they have taken our jobs...

0:34:440:34:50

China is a currency manipulator.

Yet

so far that open hostility appears

0:34:500:34:54

to have been forgotten.

China

welcomed President Trump and they

0:34:540:34:59

gave him a fantastic ceremony. He

left feeling like he had a very

0:34:590:35:04

strong personal relationship with

President Xi Jinping. Of course, the

0:35:040:35:08

broader context of the nuclear issue

in North Korea has meant that, for

0:35:080:35:14

Trump, that has taken precedence.

Whilst long-term allies are fearful

0:35:140:35:18

of an escalation on the Korean

potency luck at the American

0:35:180:35:21

President of the social media to

exchange in schools with King John

0:35:210:35:25

on. His putter spats are not

reserved for his foes -- with Kim

0:35:250:35:31

Jong-un. He retweeted a far right

groups.

Increasingly over time we

0:35:310:35:34

have seen tweets used to shout back

at the rest of the world. Leaders

0:35:340:35:38

around the world are trying to

decide what to do with this. Of

0:35:380:35:42

course, those people who are working

with him in the White House are also

0:35:420:35:45

faced with very difficult questions

about whether or not to disregard

0:35:450:35:50

the tweets or whether or not to try

and design strategies to continue to

0:35:500:35:57

implement these into policies, we

are seeing a range of different

0:35:570:36:00

responses to Twitter.

After a busy

12 months, it seems the world is

0:36:000:36:04

still a little perplexed by the man

who calls himself a very stable

0:36:040:36:07

genius.

0:36:070:36:09

We're joined now by

the former Vice-President

0:36:090:36:10

of Republicans Overseas,

Jan Halper Hayes.

0:36:100:36:16

Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

In your mind, what are Donald

0:36:160:36:22

Trump's signal foreign policy

achievements so far?

He has achieved

0:36:220:36:26

things with Isis, Nato actually has

increased its spending by about $12

0:36:260:36:33

billion.

What are his achievements

with Isis?

That they have driven

0:36:330:36:39

them out of certain areas of Syria

and Iraq. And they have been able to

0:36:390:36:44

release some of those who were

captured.

Even though Donald Trump

0:36:440:36:48

said he wouldn't actually intervene

in Syria before he became president.

0:36:480:36:52

Well, I think Donald Trump said a

lot of things. And, the fact is,

0:36:520:36:58

what people don't understand about

him is that he really operates from

0:36:580:37:02

a jewel perspective. He understands

that he is taking a position, but at

0:37:020:37:07

the same time, he realises that

America does have a responsibility

0:37:070:37:11

to the rest of the world.

Do you

agree with that? Do you think there

0:37:110:37:15

is a strategy behind Donald Trump's

tweeting? Because effectively, he is

0:37:150:37:20

running his own foreign policy from

Puerto?

I'm not sure there is eight

0:37:200:37:24

that you, but it is an instinct and

there is a powerful one. I say to

0:37:240:37:28

somebody who is perhaps not quite as

critical as his foreign policy as

0:37:280:37:32

you might imagine, because I felt

American foreign policy had become

0:37:320:37:36

rather complacent, it was managing

long-term problems like Syria and

0:37:360:37:41

Afghanistan, which never seemed to

get solved.

You would have liked to

0:37:410:37:44

have seen more intervention and you

think Donald Trump is the man to do

0:37:440:37:48

it?

No, not listen Sir Lee, I don't

think intervention is the solution

0:37:480:37:52

to all problems, by any means. I

felt a disruptive approach, a

0:37:520:37:57

challenge to a lot of America's

relationships, is valid. However,

0:37:570:38:01

the fact that they are all bundled

together behind this America first

0:38:010:38:06

label and it is so transactional and

so bilateral, it is having a really

0:38:060:38:11

devastating consequence. And it is

rippling out globally around trade,

0:38:110:38:15

security, you name it, is human

rights, democracy. It is proving so

0:38:150:38:23

far a very disappointing although

predictably so presidency, I think.

0:38:230:38:26

May I add about his tweeting, it is

strategic, exceedingly strategic.

0:38:260:38:34

Which tweets are strategic?

There

are four Prat agrees. One is to

0:38:340:38:39

deflect what is going on. --

categories. Two is to send out trial

0:38:390:38:44

balloons to test how people feel. To

divert from uncomfortable things, or

0:38:440:38:50

to do pre-emptive framing of things.

Where would you put Mexico and

0:38:500:38:55

Mexico building that will? Because

he tweeted about that early on, what

0:38:550:38:59

was that in terms of your

categories?

That was pre-emptive

0:38:590:39:03

framing. And under the trial balloon

to get a sense of what, how well it

0:39:030:39:09

would be received.

The nuclear

button, the most recent and

0:39:090:39:14

potentially the most explosive, to

coin a phrase. How would you

0:39:140:39:17

characterise that?

Well, I thought

it was very interesting that he came

0:39:170:39:20

up with a name for him, Rocket Man.

But the thing about North Korea, and

0:39:200:39:28

Trump is very much aware of this,

that he's almost like the gift that

0:39:280:39:32

keeps on giving to North Korea, like

the gift that keeps on giving the

0:39:320:39:36

journalist.

Seeing that his button

is bigger...

North Korea needs to

0:39:360:39:43

have and I American slant to it.

That has been something over the

0:39:430:39:47

years that has been very important

for their survival -- and

0:39:470:39:51

anti-American slant. From the Korean

War, they did not feel it was their

0:39:510:39:55

fault. His grandfather, Kim Il-sung,

was the one that first started that

0:39:550:40:00

attitude towards anti-American is.

Since the 60s, there have been

0:40:000:40:03

cartoons.

Nikki Haley, ambassador to

the UN, has defended Donald Trump's

0:40:030:40:11

nuclear button, mine is bigger than

yours, too Kim Jong-un, saying it

0:40:110:40:15

was required to keep the North

Korean leader on his toes.

It has

0:40:150:40:21

got a frat room for eternity to it,

guys standing naked in front of the

0:40:210:40:27

show and saying, mine is bigger than

yours!

That's a lovely image for us

0:40:270:40:32

at lunchtime!

It simply feeds into

exactly what you were saying, it

0:40:320:40:35

feeds into this America is the enemy

of North Korea, which keeps its weak

0:40:350:40:42

regime strong and in power. In fact,

for years, what has been begging to

0:40:420:40:48

be done in the Korean peninsula is

really to put China in front on this

0:40:480:40:52

one. It should be their problem, not

the US's problem. In fact, instead,

0:40:520:40:58

we keep on, rather than diminishing

Kim, we enhance him, by this sort of

0:40:580:41:05

nuclear button language and rocket

man language. He is running an

0:41:050:41:11

economy 100th the size of South

Korea. He has got some slightly

0:41:110:41:14

dodgy weaponry. We should turn this

problem over to China, which is the

0:41:140:41:20

neighbour that. For most if he tries

to use those weapons.

Do you think

0:41:200:41:25

there has been a moderating effect

on Donald Trump around because of

0:41:250:41:28

the advisers around him? People

always used to talk about the system

0:41:280:41:32

in America, the checks and balances.

Do you think that is in anyway

0:41:320:41:36

softening Donald Trump, apart from

the tweets he does from his bedroom?

0:41:360:41:40

I think in terms of his verbal

presentation, you are unlikely to

0:41:400:41:44

see anything softening. In of his

decision-making, general matters,

0:41:440:41:51

Kelly McMasters, he respects them

enormously. And he very much listens

0:41:510:41:53

to them.

Isn't that the case that

the world is tuning out of the

0:41:530:41:59

tweets to some extent, and the

process of foreign policy is being

0:41:590:42:02

done by the advisers around him?

Well, it is a strange moment when we

0:42:020:42:06

are forced to take comfort that

there are bunch of generals around

0:42:060:42:10

him! The American system

traditionally had civilian control

0:42:100:42:14

of the generals, this time we have

generals' control over civilians and

0:42:140:42:18

we are all relieved and happy. I

think it is right that there are

0:42:180:42:22

international has been some tuning

out. I'm struck when I go to

0:42:220:42:26

international conferences, the ones

who remain deeply alarmed by Trump

0:42:260:42:29

tend to be the Americans, who just

can't believe what comes next.

0:42:290:42:35

Whereas I think internationally,

there has been a little bit of view,

0:42:350:42:38

this guy, strange fellow, but

ultimately a weak president because

0:42:380:42:41

he can't drive what he wants through

Congress. And I think actually

0:42:410:42:46

that's a very dangerously benign

view to take of it, because a

0:42:460:42:49

president can make war. Can make

huge trouble around and

0:42:490:42:55

international security issue in a

way that he cannot do domestic

0:42:550:42:58

league.

But he also really values

being unpredictable. And in fact,

0:42:580:43:04

North Korea reached out to the

Heritage foundation, the Bruce

0:43:040:43:11

Klinger, who is their North Korean

expert, to ask him to come over and

0:43:110:43:16

explained Rob, which he declined.

But is it wise to repeatedly

0:43:160:43:20

intervene and actually insult your

allies? I mean, even Britain,

0:43:200:43:24

criticising the Mayor of London and

the Curragh policy here, is that

0:43:240:43:28

sensible diplomacy?

No, it's not

sensible diplomacy, it is Donald

0:43:280:43:32

Trump's behaviour and there are

aspects of him that are definitely

0:43:320:43:36

not perfect and unacceptable to a

lot of people, including myself. But

0:43:360:43:40

it is part of him,

0:43:400:43:49

it is part of him, and you really

have the June some of it out.

0:43:490:43:51

Except, is it damaging the global

reputation? Has it damaged the

0:43:510:43:53

global reputation already of the

United States?

I'm actually for mind

0:43:530:43:55

that our reputation has been damaged

for much longer than Trump came into

0:43:550:43:58

the Presidency.

Look, I would echo

that in the sense that I think, you

0:43:580:44:02

know, Obama and from, two sides of

the same coin, how do you manage

0:44:020:44:07

relative American weakness. America

is by far the strongest country in

0:44:070:44:11

the world still, but relative

weakness, inability to project its

0:44:110:44:15

power for example in Asia or in the

Middle East as effectively as it

0:44:150:44:18

could the past. Obamacare did it by

a rather quiet and, passive,

0:44:180:44:24

multilateralism that didn't really

deliver results. Trump has done it

0:44:240:44:28

with bluster and gesture, and

absolutely correctly,

0:44:280:44:31

unpredictability. I would argue the

returns on his strategy are probably

0:44:310:44:35

even less than they were no Obama's.

Thank you for coming in.

0:44:350:44:40

Now, New Year, new Brexit Bill.

0:44:400:44:41

The Trade Bill gets its second

reading in the Commons today.

0:44:410:44:44

That's the first proper

opportunity MPs have

0:44:440:44:45

to scrutinise the legislation,

which is exactly what our

0:44:450:44:48

Parliamentary Correspondent,

Mark D'Arcy, has been doing.

0:44:480:44:53

Thank you for fulfilling that

important duty. Tell us about it?

0:44:530:44:57

It's a tough job, but somebody has

to do it! The trade bill is quite a

0:44:570:45:01

small measure in terms of the number

of clauses, but it is a measure that

0:45:010:45:04

gives ministers are a lot of power

to implement trade deals that

0:45:040:45:07

haven't been negotiated yet. This is

the same problem that the an awful

0:45:070:45:13

lot of Brexit legislation, that you

have to have a large kit of tools

0:45:130:45:16

available to you, because the

structure you are building hasn't

0:45:160:45:19

even got past the concept stage yet,

let alone the design stage. So

0:45:190:45:23

they've got very wide powers they

are going to give to ministers to

0:45:230:45:27

enact trade treaties. Trade treaties

can be very big deals indeed. There

0:45:270:45:30

is a thing called the Government

Procurement Agreement, which is $1.3

0:45:300:45:36

trillion of business

0:45:360:45:47

across the planet. The UK will now

need individual membership of that,

0:45:470:45:49

and it is quite an important thing

for any number of British jobs. That

0:45:490:45:52

is just one of dozens of examples

out there of treaties that we have

0:45:520:45:55

to make or join as members of that

are coming down the path. The other

0:45:550:45:58

issue with this bill is that

Parliament is a little bit

0:45:580:46:00

uncomfortable about how little

traction it has when those treaties

0:46:000:46:02

come up. Remember, with a loss of

trade treaties, there are particular

0:46:020:46:06

issues that grab people's attention.

It might be hormone produced beef,

0:46:060:46:10

genetically modified soya beans or

chlorine washed chicken, but when

0:46:100:46:14

there was a thing called the

Transatlantic Trade and Investment

0:46:140:46:17

Partnership, TTIP, people became

extremely worried about that because

0:46:170:46:23

there was a thought out there that

it might impinge on the National

0:46:230:46:26

Health Service and effectively

privatise the NHS. Some people

0:46:260:46:29

dismissed that as a scare story, but

it was a worry that was definitely

0:46:290:46:32

up there.

Thank you very much.

0:46:320:46:34

Well, my guest of the day,

Mark Malloch Brown, has some

0:46:340:46:37

experience of global trade -

with previous roles at the UN

0:46:370:46:39

and as a Foreign Minister.

0:46:390:46:41

As does Digby Jones,

former Trade Minister

0:46:410:46:42

and a previous Head of the CBI.

0:46:420:46:44

He joins us now from Birmingham.

0:46:440:46:48

I think the two of you were in

government together, with Gordon

0:46:480:46:54

Brown. Welcome back to the Daily

Politics. Mark Mike Brown, David

0:46:540:46:59

Davies says he is aiming for a

Canada plus plus plus, Canada have

0:46:590:47:03

done a trade deal with the EU. Would

that be a good outcome in your mind?

0:47:030:47:07

It might well be, if one could guess

at what he means. This is the same

0:47:070:47:11

guy that has also, you know, there

has been talk today that he might

0:47:110:47:17

get a minister in charge of a no

Brexit scenario for the country. The

0:47:170:47:23

challenges in trade, the world is

full of pluralistic or multilateral

0:47:230:47:29

trade agreements and we are, in a

sense, old Britain, threatening to

0:47:290:47:36

set out to sea and reconstruct that

set of relationships for ourselves

0:47:360:47:40

pretty much from scratch, having

left the safe harbour of Europe. The

0:47:400:47:46

whole direction of international

trade policy at the is moment

0:47:460:47:51

towards the America First of Trump,

trade is going to be on my terms to

0:47:510:47:58

lower American trade deficits. It is

simply not a very good environment

0:47:580:48:01

to be trying to reinvent your trade

policy in, particularly when you

0:48:010:48:06

have that safe, effective harbour

where we do 43% of our trade at the

0:48:060:48:11

moment with Europe.

Digby Jones,

what do you say to that?

Greetings

0:48:110:48:16

from Birmingham. You have two GOATS

for the price of one. I am not as

0:48:160:48:25

pessimistic as Mark. I am very keen

on ensuring that we remain very good

0:48:250:48:29

friends with Europe. I don't like

the

0:48:290:48:36

the the idea that it will be enemies

and not friends, when it is in the

0:48:360:48:40

interests of an unemployed live in

Greece today, a single mother in

0:48:400:48:46

Madrid today, 12% of France

unemployed today, it is in their

0:48:460:48:50

interests that they get a good

quality trade agreement, covering

0:48:500:48:58

services and financial services,

with this enormous trading partner

0:48:580:49:01

called Britain. I wish those that

are still sulking about the result

0:49:010:49:04

came on board to get a good result.

I want the Cleggs, and the Blairs,

0:49:040:49:14

Mark, as well, in his suit, a

seriously good talent, I want them

0:49:140:49:17

to be behind the United Kingdom to

get the deal done. I don't call this

0:49:170:49:22

Canada plus plus plus, I think it

has the chance of being unique just

0:49:220:49:25

because we are so big. It is a

fabulous time to be doing deals in

0:49:250:49:28

Asia, and I have to say, with great

respect to Mr Barnier and his

0:49:280:49:35

people, and I'm going to see Michel

Barnier tomorrow...

You as well,

0:49:350:49:40

following Nigel Farage?

Not

following him in policy or thought,

0:49:400:49:43

I am following him in time. I am

going to say to him, I want to hitch

0:49:430:49:47

their wagon to Asia's century, and I

am not going to denigrate Europe. I

0:49:470:49:53

am going to say that I don't agree

with the safe harbour idea. Europe

0:49:530:49:57

is in relative decline. Asia is not.

I would like to be doing deals with

0:49:570:50:01

Asia.

Do you accept that? Are you

sulking? Are you sitting there with

0:50:010:50:07

others on the Labour and Tory side

that are just lacking the optimism

0:50:070:50:12

and the gung ho spirit of people

like Digby Jones for the trade deals

0:50:120:50:15

that are out there?

Well, if I was

ever feeling down, Digby was the man

0:50:150:50:23

I went to. He is gloriously

optimistic about everything, God

0:50:230:50:27

bless him, and terribly talented. So

I take what he says very, very

0:50:270:50:32

seriously. For me, it is not Europe

or Asia, and I don't think it is for

0:50:320:50:36

Digby, you can get both. I also

think you can get both. But how you

0:50:360:50:40

get both for me is different, you

start by holding on to Europe and at

0:50:400:50:44

age.

But you can't get free trade

deals with other countries if we are

0:50:440:50:48

still part of the single market?

All

of the Asians I talked you do not

0:50:480:50:54

like the idea of special trade stuff

governing the relationship with the

0:50:540:50:59

UK and Europe, because they look at

Europe as a single export market, of

0:50:590:51:03

which the UK is part. They don't

want to send cars and electronics

0:51:030:51:06

here that are different to the ones

they have to ship to Europe. The

0:51:060:51:10

complexity of that kind adds costs

to our imports, as well as what we

0:51:100:51:14

export.

Realistically, you say you

want to remain friends with Europe

0:51:140:51:20

and with the EU, but do you accept

that any trade deal with the EU,

0:51:200:51:24

which may be a good one,

particularly if it includes

0:51:240:51:27

services, which is a big issue for

Britain, it will not be as good as

0:51:270:51:30

the one we have got now?

I think in

tariff terms it will be the same as

0:51:300:51:35

now.

In trade terms?

Yes, but in

tariff terms, an inhibitor to trade,

0:51:350:51:42

frankly, every deal Mark and I ever

did as trade, you were starting with

0:51:420:51:48

tariffs of 10%, 12%, 8%, and trying

to get them down. I've never known a

0:51:480:51:53

trade negotiation on Earth start at

zero and try to get it up. I'm not

0:51:530:51:58

at all concerned. I think it will be

exactly the same in tariffs. Where I

0:51:580:52:01

am concerned and where we have work

to do is what I called nontariff

0:52:010:52:06

barriers to trade. The bureaucracy,

the regulation. Mark is right in

0:52:060:52:10

saying that we have to adapt, we are

not going to like this as a country

0:52:100:52:14

but we have to do it, we have to

adapt to a lot of the regulation

0:52:140:52:17

that Europe do to enable goods to be

sold there. Because of that, we will

0:52:170:52:20

do it for the rest of the world

because no producer in Britain, no

0:52:200:52:24

manufacturer or service provider is

going to have two lines, one for

0:52:240:52:28

non-Europe, and one for Europe. Mark

is absolutely right. You can work

0:52:280:52:32

through that by being Michel

Barnier's friend, saying, you're not

0:52:320:52:35

going to have a problem with me on

this, I want to get it done quickly

0:52:350:52:39

to give business certainty. What is

very important right now is that we

0:52:390:52:42

don't have the situation where, he

has to understand that we can walk

0:52:420:52:53

away but we're not going to.

You

want a situation where you could

0:52:530:52:57

walk away and not pay the divorce

bill?

Definitely.

Is there an

0:52:570:53:03

opportunity? The 27 are not united

completely when it comes to trade.

0:53:030:53:07

They all have different priorities

at the moment. It may be

0:53:070:53:14

at the moment. It may be that

Britain can secure trade deal like

0:53:160:53:18

Canada's, because we start with

being joined together, unlike

0:53:180:53:21

Canada. Do you accept that might be

straightforward and it is just

0:53:210:53:24

services that are the issue?

I think

services are a special issue, so

0:53:240:53:32

much of the architecture of Europe

that we blame on Brussels, the lead

0:53:320:53:39

partner with our trade ministers. We

have had a real hand in shaping

0:53:390:53:46

trade policy. However many pluses

you add to the Canada formula, we

0:53:460:53:50

become a taker, not a rule maker. We

can expect that trade policy will

0:53:500:54:00

shift to something more reflective

of Franco German priorities than

0:54:000:54:02

ours. We will steadily be on the

losing end of a changing European

0:54:020:54:09

trade policy which we will not be

able to influence.

As well as being

0:54:090:54:13

a rule taker, rather than a rule

giver, part of the argument of the

0:54:130:54:17

debate being held now, in terms of

the negotiations and how closely we

0:54:170:54:21

align ourselves with the EU, what

about trade diminishing with

0:54:210:54:25

distance? When people like you say,

look, there are all of these

0:54:250:54:31

opportunities out there in Asia and

Australia, isn't it true that it is

0:54:310:54:35

more difficult to trade in the way

that we do with close, literally,

0:54:350:54:39

geographical partners, than those

further afield in terms of volume?

0:54:390:54:43

No. In a world before

digitalisation, before Robitaille is

0:54:430:54:52

-- robots, I would have said yes.

The world has changed. Brussels has

0:54:520:54:56

not kept up. They saw success in

manufactured goods, when the world

0:54:560:55:03

is aching for what Britain does

really well. We can achieve so much

0:55:030:55:06

of that with technology. Where you

are right is that people are going

0:55:060:55:11

to have to get on the plane, rather

than Eurostar, and nobody does trade

0:55:110:55:16

better than when they are sitting

over a table and you're doing

0:55:160:55:19

face-to-face. You are right there is

that. But frankly, we are talking

0:55:190:55:22

about a few hours every time. It is

a different world. When you think of

0:55:220:55:27

someone

0:55:270:55:32

someone like the UAE, the third

biggest home of our exports, not

0:55:320:55:36

Germany, not France, what can they

do? They get value-added services.

0:55:360:55:43

That is the future.

Mark Malcolm

Brown, is the truth that the

0:55:430:55:48

organisation you are representing

wants to reverse Brexit?

Absolutely,

0:55:480:55:52

I am ashamed to say it, even with

Digby at the end of the line.

How do

0:55:520:55:57

you do it?

It's very clear, like

with anything to do with democracy,

0:55:570:56:02

you are allowed to change mind. That

is why we have new elections. I

0:56:020:56:08

think people are changing their

minds.

The polls don't indicate

0:56:080:56:11

that.

It depends which one you read.

But I agree that they haven't

0:56:110:56:15

changed it as dramatically as I

would like to see. It is moving

0:56:150:56:20

because there is a deterioration in

the economic situation and people

0:56:200:56:23

are beginning to understand that

they were seriously mis-sold in the

0:56:230:56:28

original referendum. The guys who

fought for Stronger In didn't fight

0:56:280:56:36

as strongly as they should. We are

such an ambivalent country when it

0:56:360:56:40

comes to Europe, we find it hard to

admit that we actually rather like

0:56:400:56:44

our European neighbours, that seems

to be a political suicide note.

0:56:440:56:49

There is no obvious mechanism in

order to stop?

There is a meaningful

0:56:490:56:54

vote in October, a defeat of the

government on that vote would lead

0:56:540:56:57

to a second referendum or election,

or some way of having a second

0:56:570:57:01

chance.

You have literally got ten

seconds?

Just beware, the word

0:57:010:57:07

tyrant. We chopped off the King's

head because he was telling

0:57:070:57:10

Parliament what to do. You don't

want to give the parliament into the

0:57:100:57:12

position of acting as the tyrant to

the people. The people asked for

0:57:120:57:17

something. I think what they really

asked for, deep down, but they

0:57:170:57:20

didn't want to be told what to do by

Berlin and Brussels. Be careful what

0:57:200:57:24

you might wish for, because if you

got it, I have to say that I think

0:57:240:57:28

parliament would be in an incurably

difficult position.

Let's quickly

0:57:280:57:34

get back to the reshuffle and find

out who has been in and out of

0:57:340:57:37

Number 10. Norman Smith is in

Downing Street. I hope you went home

0:57:370:57:41

last night and haven't been there

all night?

It has been like

0:57:410:57:47

Piccadilly Circus, coming and going.

What have we had so far? We have had

0:57:470:57:51

the reshuffle of the deckchairs of

some of the middle ranking male

0:57:510:57:57

ministers. We have seen, for

example, Dominic Raab has moved from

0:57:570:58:02

justice to housing, Alok Sharma made

way for him at housing and went to

0:58:020:58:08

employment. Joe Johnson, the

Universities Minister, yesterday

0:58:080:58:10

defending Toby Young, has been

shuffled over to transport. Greg

0:58:100:58:16

Hands stays at International Trade.

Some of the older men have been

0:58:160:58:19

parcelled off. These are male

ministers of a certain vintage,

0:58:190:58:23

shall we say in their 50s. John

Hayes, Philip Dunne, Robert

0:58:230:58:29

Goodwill, Mark Dhani, they will be

dispatched from government. -- Mark

0:58:290:58:35

Garnier. We have had Harriet

Baldwin, Margot James, some women

0:58:350:58:41

are inside Downing Street and I

expect they are likely to be pushed

0:58:410:58:44

up the ministerial ladder.

Thank you

for bringing us to the end of the

0:58:440:58:49

programme. All quiet behind you at

the moment at Number 10. Thank you

0:58:490:58:53

for being our guest of the day, Mark

Malcom Brown. The one o'clock News

0:58:530:58:56

is starting on BBC One. Andrew will

be here tomorrow for the first Prime

0:58:560:59:01

Minister's Questions. Goodbye.

0:59:010:59:06

Jo Coburn is joined by former Foreign Office minister and anti-Brexit campaigner Lord Malloch-Brown to discuss the Cabinet reshuffle, his plans to try and keep the UK in the European Union, and the foreign policy of US president Donald Trump.


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