12/01/2018 Daily Politics


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12/01/2018

Journalists Tim Montgomerie and Rachel Shabi join Jo Coburn to look at the elections for new members to Labour's ruling NEC with Momentum head Jon Lansman.


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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Donald Trump says he won't come

to Britain for a visit

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next month after all,

with claims he isn't

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coming because of fears

he won't be made welcome.

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We've been speaking to Momentum

founder Jon Lansman

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about elections for Labour's ruling

body that could have a big impact

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on the future of the party.

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Nigel Farage says we should

have a second EU referendum,

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but also says he doesn't want one.

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We'll speak to the current

leader of Ukip and try

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to clear up the confusion.

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And there's speculation it could be

Oprah versus The Donald at the next

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US presidential election,

so why have celebrities

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here in Britain had less

luck at the ballot box?

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All that in the next hour,

and with us for the duration it's

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the journalists Rachel Shabi

and Tim Montgomerie.

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Welcome to the show.

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So, in the latest twist

in the will-he-won't-he saga

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surrounding a visit to the UK

by Donald Trump, the US President

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has confirmed he won't be

going ahead with at least one trip

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planned for next month.

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The story was broken

by the Daily Mail this morning,

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which said that Mr Trump had gone

cold on plans to officially open

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the new US embassy in London.

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The paper says he took the decision

amid fears he wouldn't be welcome.

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Mr Trump confirmed the story himself

this morning on Twitter.

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He said, "The reason I cancelled my

trip to London is that

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I am not a big fan of

the Obama Administration having sold

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perhaps the best located and finest

embassy in London for peanuts,

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only to build a new one in an off

location for $1.2 billion.

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Bad deal.

Wanted me to cut ribbon - NO!"

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That's a reference to the fact

that the US embassy is being moved

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from Mayfair in London to Battersea.

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Well, critics of the president have

been welcoming the news, with the

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Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan

saying, "Many Londoners have made it

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clear that Donald Trump is not

welcome here while he is pursuing

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such a divisive agenda.

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It seems he's finally

got that message."

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But that response irked

the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson,

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who in turn tweeted,

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"The US is the biggest single

investor in the UK -

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yet Khan and Corbyn seem

determined to put this crucial

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relationship at risk.

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We will not allow US-UK relations

to be endangered by some puffed up

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pompous popinjay in City Hall."

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Donald Trump dividing opinion as

always, not just in the US.

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Are you relieved he isn't coming to

open the US embassy?

Amat for once

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and for once I might be closer to

the Labour view on this than to the

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Tory view and the UK have a vital

relationship and it is incredibly

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important we invest in that

relationship. But there comes a

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time, after so many outrageous

remarks by Donald Trump and we must

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draw a line. I think we can make a

distinction between having a good

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relationship with the United States

and having to honour a president,

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who, contrary to your view about

devising opinion, I think he

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actually unites Britain. I think

most British people find almost all

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of his views and acceptable.

Apart

from Boris Johnson, it seems. In

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terms of that relationship with the

USA, would you still go as far as to

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say he should not come on any sort

of state visit or political visit?

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He is obviously not welcome, isn't

he. I think this has shown the power

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of protest on one hand and also it

is very heartening that the British

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public will look at someone like

this misogynist, racist president,

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and say no, we not having it. I

think that shows a real moral

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clarity. I wish our PM could

demonstrate even an ounce of the

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same moral clarity over Trump.

To be

fair,

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fair, when he re-tweeted those

remarks from a far right group...

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That went over a line for her.

It is

difficult for a sitting Prime

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Minister to be difficult with our

most important ally. It is easy for

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us as commentators from outside to

be morally righteous but for a Prime

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Minister who has to work on a daily

basis on trade and security...

Other

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world leaders have had to work with

Trump as well and they have been...

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They have welcomed him. To France...

That they have not welcomed his

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comments and they have been more

vocal in criticising his comments

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than she has been.

Should the state

invitation be withdrawn? That is not

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what Emily Thornberry has said.

Do

not think he is welcome here.

So

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would you stand up and say, the

Labour Party would like his

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invitation stopped.

If Jeremy Corbyn

-- Jeremy Corbyn has said that if

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Trump came here, you'd take to a

mosque and show them our brilliant

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diversity.

Why don't Labour say the

invitation should be withdrawn?

I

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don't know, personally...

Ceremony

double standards. We have leaders

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from the Middle East where women are

not just treated badly on Twitter by

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the of state but are treated badly

by second-class rights.

I don't

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think just women are treated badly

on Twitter by Trump!

And we had the

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Chinese leadership, who represses

his people in multiple ways so there

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are a lot of double standards from

people in politics saying that Trump

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is beyond the pale when other

leaders are not.

That is the case,

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we have had leaders from countries

which you and others would also say

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are against human rights, committing

all sorts of abuses against their

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own people. Yet they still come here

on visits.

There's always been a lot

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of hypocrisy in politics, there is

no question of it.

Underlying

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anti-American is on the left that

will always judge America more

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harshly.

And must be enthused about

judging America more harshly.

That's

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not even true. Listen to the way the

left talks about Saudi officials and

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the British relationship with Saudi

Arabia. That is not true,

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manifestly. Yet it is fine for the

British public to have this adverse

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reaction to somebody as divisive and

as racist as some unlike Trump.

Why

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march against him and not other

leaders?

I think people do much

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against all sorts of leaders.

They

don't, really!

President Trump last

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night claiming that leaders from

Africa and Haiti came from, I won't

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repeat his word, but saying, not

very good countries. Has this

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crossed the line of acceptability,

should the Prime Minister intervene

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and save this is not acceptable?

And

is an extraordinary remark from the

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leader of a country made up of

immigrants to talk in those terms.

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He said, why can't we have more

people from Norway, apparently. As

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somebody wrote on Twitter earlier,

Norwegians were among the first

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settlers to America and also faced

discrimination. It is as if there is

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no acceptable immigrant in the eyes

of Donald Trump about that is why

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London has reacted strongly to him

because London is also a city of

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immigrants. And for him to come here

did potentially offend many people.

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Would you like Labour to condemn

Venezuela and Iran?

I just love the

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way that that is crowbared into

every discussion!

Glad I didn't

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disappoint.

You have an Venezuelan

leader supported by Jeremy Corbyn

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who is causing massive misery...

There is a clarity over the politics

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of Trump that there is not of the

politics of Venezuela.

And Iran?

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Again Labour was asked to condemn

the abuses carried out in Iran and

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they have not been clear on that,

certainly not from Jeremy Corbyn.

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Meet him at the abuses over

protests?

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protests?

-- the abuses over

protests? I think that the way that

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the regime has clamped down on the

protests in Iran should be

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condemned.

But not in Venezuela!

Let's leave it there.

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A short while ago voting finished

in elections for new members

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of Labour's National Executive

Committee.

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That's the party's governing body,

which sets its strategic

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direction and oversees

the policy-making process.

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So what's at stake in the contest?

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The NEC, as it's known, currently

has 39 members mostly composed

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of elected politicians,

trade union representatives,

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and members from constituency

Labour parties.

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It has been finely balanced

between members seen as those

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sympathetic to the Labour leader's

plans and those broadly sceptical.

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At the 2017 conference Labour

decided to create three

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new positions representing party

members,

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in response to the membership rising

to more than 600,000

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under Jeremy Corbyn.

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Nine candidates are competing

for the three seats -

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and it's expected that the more

pro-Corbyn trio will win.

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They're backed by Momentum -

whose leader, Jon Lansman,

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is one of the candidates,

and a long-time advocate

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for a more left-wing Labour.

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There's concern among some

in the party that this will entrench

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the power of those most enthusiastic

about Jeremy Corbyn.

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Separately today is also

the deadline for Labour members

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to give their views on the first

phase of the party's

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Democracy Review, which is carried

out by Jeremy Corbyn's close ally

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Katy Clark.

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The proposals will be discussed

by the NEC later this month.

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Well, our reporter Elizabeth Glinka

sat down with Jon Lansman,

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and asked him what his priority

was if he got on the NEC, and why

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the contest was so hard fought.

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My priority is to see that,

er, the party becomes

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more of a members-led party.

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With members empowered, trusted,

enabled to do what's necessary

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to win the next election.

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And you know, I think they've shown

in the recent election

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what 600,000 members can do.

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To have millions of conversations,

and turn around an election

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campaign, the biggest turnaround

we've had in an election

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campaign in British history.

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So I think more of that is

what we need to actually

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win the next election.

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There's a debate, there

are independent candidates,

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not all the candidates

are on slates, and there should

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be a debate, that's democracy.

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We're a democratic party.

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Thinking about democracy of course

we've got the first proposals

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of the democracy review

expected this month.

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Is this review about making it

easier for your faction to dominate

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and silence the people that

you don't agree with?

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Not at all.

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First of all, there have always been

differences of view.

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I actually am delighted

that the Labour Party,

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after two leadership elections,

admittedly, has now recognised that

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Jeremy is going to stay leader

until he chooses otherwise.

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So we are now uniting around a real

alternative to austerity.

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Is this process about deselections?

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When you talk about democracy

and the views of the members,

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the new members being heard,

are we talking about deselections?

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We will not campaign

to deselect anybody.

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But it's right that the members get

to choose who is the best

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person to represent,

to stand for election

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and represent them in Parliament.

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And we've got 600,000 members now.

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Who know their communities,

and who know the people they work

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with in their workplaces.

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And they are in the best

position to make judgments

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about who the right candidates are.

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There are hundreds of

thousands of members

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who are enthusiastic

about the change to

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the Labour Party, and it's

brought them into activity,

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it's tripled the size of the party.

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How can you see that as anything

other than a good thing?

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You signed that petition last month

calling for the process

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for the selection of councillors

in London to be re-run.

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Is that still a position

you would take?

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Well, I do think that some

of the selections in London

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and around the country have not

been properly run.

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There has been confusion

between the people overseeing

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elections and council leaders,

and it's as if, it's

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about minimising the number

of dissidents in a Labour group.

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But we actually need debate

amongst our elected representatives,

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wherever we are in government,

locally or nationally.

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And there should be a fair

and reasonable process.

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That's all I'm after.

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I want to see in all internal

selections and elections,

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processes in which all sections

of the party feel that they can back

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a candidate that they support.

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And, you know, the person

with the most votes ends up winning.

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But at least they can feel

they've had a fair process,

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that's what I want to see.

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That was Jon Lansman, and we'll find

out if he was successful

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in the elections on Monday.

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We're joined now by Stephanie

Lloyd from Progress -

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that's a group within Labour that

has backed an alternative slate

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of candidates for the NEC.

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And Rachel Shabi is still here -

she's a supporter of

0:14:230:14:26

the group Momentum.

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Welcome, Stephanie. Why are you

worried about Jon Lansman and the

0:14:280:14:34

Momentum slate being elected?

Our

big worry about this is, what is he

0:14:340:14:38

going to do with the power that he

will then get. So if you have come

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at the balance of the NEC

previously, it's about challenge,

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making sure that of their processes.

And what we are going to see is,

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rather than the Labour Party

internally spending its time on

0:14:520:14:54

fighting a shambolic Conservative

government, it will spend its time,

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rather than trying to elect Labour

MPs, electing Momentum MPs and

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deselecting current ones.

Isn't he

just talking about democracy? The

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party has swelled its ranks with

hundreds of thousands of new members

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and they should have their say.

They

should have their say and that is

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fine. One thing I find slightly

hypocritical from Jon Lansman at

0:15:180:15:21

best is the fact that there's been a

massive swell in our membership. And

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that is only a good thing. But

rather than at the grassroots people

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coming through as candidates it is

the leader of that group, Momentum,

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supported, yes, but those people

often shuddered with the debate. I

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don't think we can say Momentum is

particularly a democratic

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organisation. You can see what they

did with their constitution.

Do you

0:15:450:15:48

understand the fears by Stephanie?

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I think the party has this

historically high membership, over

0:15:570:16:03

half a million, looking at Western

Europe, that is a lot of people. To

0:16:030:16:06

some people, what Momentum and the

Labour leadership has said they are

0:16:060:16:10

doing and wants to do, through these

NEC changes proposed, the Democratic

0:16:100:16:16

review proposed, it is democratising

the party. For some people who are

0:16:160:16:21

used to a more polished centralised

version of politics, that huge

0:16:210:16:25

number of people getting into

politics is going to look unruly. It

0:16:250:16:28

is going to look messy.

And I think that is what has

0:16:280:16:32

happened, but I think it would be a

mistake and a disservice to people

0:16:320:16:37

who are engaged with politics in

such a positive way, for the first

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time, people reconnecting with the

Labour Party, and they want to bring

0:16:400:16:45

it to power, and to induce them --

accuse them of behaving in an

0:16:450:16:51

undemocratic way does them a huge

disservice.

I think there is a huge

0:16:510:16:56

difference between the people who

have got engaged in politics,

0:16:560:16:59

particularly a lot of young people,

and how I got involved was to the

0:16:590:17:02

youth movement and campaigning, and

the leadership of momentum, and they

0:17:020:17:06

are two different things, and I

think what we have seen, even if you

0:17:060:17:09

look at the democracy review, the

party on the NEC, as soon as it had

0:17:090:17:14

its control over that, rather than

the normal process electing the

0:17:140:17:18

Utrecht, rather than any

consultation with youth members are

0:17:180:17:21

waiting on the democracy review on

how the new NEC would be elected, in

0:17:210:17:25

contradiction to what the current

group wanted, it was whitewashed

0:17:250:17:30

over in a way that was purely

factional to get their candidates

0:17:300:17:33

and their slate people elected, so

my concern is not to get our party

0:17:330:17:40

elected, I was out doorknocking with

fantastic young people involved, but

0:17:400:17:43

the other one is constantly shadowed

by the leadership when it comes to

0:17:430:17:46

the next stage of this.

But it is

not what they are saying.

But they

0:17:460:17:51

shut down their own youth movement.

We saw Momentum shutdown without any

0:17:510:17:55

consultation there on his movement

that supported them.

Do you think

0:17:550:18:00

there is a risk here that actually

Jon Lansman, although he said in

0:18:000:18:04

that interview we don't want to see

these elections or reason elections,

0:18:040:18:08

but he did say that with some

selection of councillors in London,

0:18:080:18:11

he felt that there had been

collusion, and he did want to see

0:18:110:18:16

those rerun and represent the

membership at large. In the end

0:18:160:18:20

isn't Jon Lansman on the Momentum

wing of the party complaining about

0:18:200:18:26

exactly the same thing as Stephanie.

Nobody likes dissent and wants

0:18:260:18:30

people to disagree with their

version of what the party should

0:18:300:18:32

look like?

This is messy, and a lot

of people, trying to claim what is

0:18:320:18:38

going on, you know, the things that

have been going on with councillors

0:18:380:18:44

for example in Haringey -- I am

trying to explain what is going on.

0:18:440:18:47

A lot of people are really angry

with her that council has behaved.

0:18:470:18:52

And therefore they have a right to

say they don't want them.

Veto,

0:18:520:18:57

but...

The apparatus or they don't

want those policies that are

0:18:570:19:01

materially affecting their lives,

damaging their lives, and that is

0:19:010:19:04

absolutely fine --

they do.

But it

is being portrayed as some sort of

0:19:040:19:09

takeover by a cult, which has not

been the case at all.

It may not be

0:19:090:19:13

a cold, but is it a takeover, an

attempt rightly or wrongly to

0:19:130:19:17

entrench the power of Jeremy Corbyn

and Momentum? -- it may not be a

0:19:170:19:23

cult.

If people have joined the

party because the politics of Jeremy

0:19:230:19:29

Corbyn resonate with them and they

feel good with society and they are

0:19:290:19:33

democratically getting engaged and

involved in politics, what exactly

0:19:330:19:35

is the problem?

Rachel is

representing what Labour Party

0:19:350:19:40

members actually want to see, and

they support the policies of Jeremy

0:19:400:19:43

Corbyn. You are just not doing it

well enough, you are not keeping up

0:19:430:19:46

your side of the Labour Party, just

not doing it as well as Momentum?

0:19:460:19:52

That is definitely a part of that,

and I think what Jeremy and Momentum

0:19:520:19:57

captured in terms of engagement and

hope is not something anybody should

0:19:570:20:01

scoff at and I certainly never would

do so. My problem is what you then

0:20:010:20:06

take people's aspirations with, and

what they want in terms of the

0:20:060:20:10

future, and make it into pure

factionalism, about control and

0:20:100:20:15

controlling the entire party doesn't

my worry is, and I was sat at my

0:20:150:20:19

local Labour Party meeting last

night in Stratton, one of the most

0:20:190:20:22

deprived areas in London and I would

say the whole country -- Streatham.

0:20:220:20:29

And this was almost the best

depiction of it. The most upwardly

0:20:290:20:33

mobile and young white university

educated woman beats a 16-year-old

0:20:330:20:36

local activist because she didn't

have the right kind of politics or

0:20:360:20:39

didn't know the right people and was

not introduced onto the slate.

0:20:390:20:43

Doesn't that go against everything

you and Momentum and Jeremy Corbyn

0:20:430:20:47

believe?

I have no idea because I

have no idea of the context of what

0:20:470:20:51

you are describing, but what I do

know...

We see councillors

up and

0:20:510:20:55

down the country who are

representative of their own

0:20:550:21:00

communities being deselected.

No, we

actually have not seen that. Up and

0:21:000:21:04

down the country we have seen an

upsurge of people getting involved

0:21:040:21:08

in politics, whether at constituency

level or at a local level, and they

0:21:080:21:12

have every right to do that and they

have every right to decide whether

0:21:120:21:15

their candidate represents them or

not. As it happens, in most cases

0:21:150:21:20

across the country, the candidates

that the... This Labour candidates

0:21:200:21:24

that stood for the general elections

are not being kicked out at all. In

0:21:240:21:27

fact, the opposite is true, because

they forged nice relationships, the

0:21:270:21:33

constituency and the candidate, they

develop good relations during a snap

0:21:330:21:36

election, and they are not being

kicked out.

What do you say about

0:21:360:21:41

the criticisms and accusations

levelled about intimidation, about

0:21:410:21:46

behaviour that has become toxic

within the party against different

0:21:460:21:51

factions, that come from Momentum,

so the accusations go, on Twitter,

0:21:510:21:55

social media or at meetings?

I mean,

I am not here to defend people being

0:21:550:22:01

obnoxious. But I am here to say that

sometimes some of this is going to

0:22:010:22:05

look angry. People in Haringey for

instance have every right to be

0:22:050:22:09

angry at what that council tried to

impose on their behalf with that

0:22:090:22:15

sell-off of council housing. That is

an entirely legitimate reaction to

0:22:150:22:19

have.

Even to have that sort of

behaviour as you see being expressed

0:22:190:22:24

in an unruly, messy and intimidating

way.

I'm not there to support people

0:22:240:22:28

being intimidating or obnoxious but

what I am saying is that is not

0:22:280:22:31

representative of what is going on

up and down the country, and this

0:22:310:22:34

tactic of horning in on, you know,

obnoxious examples to try to make it

0:22:340:22:42

representative of the entire

movement, it does that movement at

0:22:420:22:44

the service -- this tactic of honing

in.

I will bring you in. Looking

0:22:440:22:52

from the outside, the Conservative

Party have a lot to be envious

0:22:520:22:55

about, the membership numbers.

Talking about how low Conservative

0:22:550:23:00

members are.

And you're failing to

get answers from your Tory guest...

0:23:000:23:04

LAUGHTER

We are talking about 600,000 in

0:23:040:23:08

labour and the Conservatives are the

fourth biggest party. A worrying is

0:23:080:23:12

that?

I think the Tories have

massive problems with the grassroots

0:23:120:23:15

and I am very happy to dissect

those, but I do also worried

0:23:150:23:20

about... Before the election there

was a huge number of Labour MPs who

0:23:200:23:22

objected to Jeremy Corbyn's

leadership on the grounds of

0:23:220:23:26

principle, and their silence since

the election has been an

0:23:260:23:32

extraordinary thing, a desertion of

duty. I think part of the reason is

0:23:320:23:35

that they are intimidated by too

many activists in the Labour Party

0:23:350:23:38

who are unfortunately extreme, and I

think it is good to you this

0:23:380:23:40

discussion between these two Labour

activists, lifting the lid lately on

0:23:400:23:45

what I'm afraid I'm not just

isolated examples of intimidation

0:23:450:23:50

and obnoxious behaviour, but I'm

afraid there are too many people

0:23:500:23:52

amongst that 600,000 membership who

do seem to be behaving in ways that

0:23:520:23:57

on Twitter, and we see it all the

time, are well beyond the limits of

0:23:570:24:02

decent comradely behaviour.

What you

say in response, Rachel?

I see the

0:24:020:24:06

Labour Party has got that many

members and Momentum is doing so

0:24:060:24:10

well because it has inspired people

to get involved in politics in a way

0:24:100:24:13

that we haven't seen for decades.

Do

you think MPs have not stood up

0:24:130:24:18

since the election because they feel

intimidated about standing against

0:24:180:24:23

Jeremy Corbyn's position?

I think

they have been silence because they

0:24:230:24:26

have seen that Jeremy Corbyn's

politics was successful.

It is one

0:24:260:24:31

thing to accept he might be an

electoral force...

The increased the

0:24:310:24:36

majority in many cases.

Sorry I did

not give you another say, Stephanie,

0:24:360:24:41

but thank you for coming in. We will

have to leave that one there.

0:24:410:24:46

Should there be a second referendum

on our membership of the EU?

0:24:460:24:49

Until now that's an idea largely

only supported by keen

0:24:490:24:51

Remainers such as Tony Blair,

and so yesterday many people

0:24:510:24:53

were surprised to hear former Ukip

leader Nigel Farage say this:

0:24:530:24:56

The Cleggs, the Blairs, the Adonises

will never ever ever give up.

0:24:560:24:59

They will go on whingeing

and whining and moaning,

0:24:590:25:01

all the way through this process.

0:25:010:25:06

So maybe, just maybe,

and reaching the point

0:25:060:25:08

of thinking that we should

have a second referendum, because...

0:25:080:25:11

On what?

0:25:110:25:12

On EU membership.

0:25:120:25:13

The whole thing?

0:25:130:25:14

Yes, of course, of course.

0:25:140:25:15

Unless you want to have

a multiple-choice referendum.

0:25:150:25:17

No, no, no, I'm amazed...

0:25:170:25:18

I think if we had a second

referendum on EU membership,

0:25:180:25:21

we'd kill it off for a generation...

0:25:210:25:29

So that's what Mr Farage

had to say yesterday,

0:25:290:25:31

but he went on to write an article

for the Telegraph in which he said:

0:25:310:25:35

"To be clear, I do not want

a second referendum,

0:25:350:25:37

but I fear one may be forced

upon the country by Parliament."

0:25:370:25:40

I'm not sure that was clear at all!

0:25:400:25:42

"The best defence of our dramatic

referendum victory," he went on,

0:25:420:25:44

"is to be alive to the possibility

of having to do it all over again."

0:25:440:25:48

So what are we to make of that?

0:25:480:25:50

Well, I'm joined now by the current

leader of Ukip, Henry Bolton.

0:25:500:25:53

Welcome to the product. Have you

spoken to Nigel since he made his

0:25:530:25:55

remarks?

I have. -- welcome to the

programme.

What did he say?

Nigel's

0:25:550:26:02

point, whilst the party does remain

opposed to a second referendum, for

0:26:020:26:07

a range of reasons, we may well be

confronted with it in the future.

0:26:070:26:12

And there is a need to mobilise the

entire Leave campaign with all the

0:26:120:26:18

different elements to unite and

actually ensure we do move this

0:26:180:26:20

whole Brexit thing forward, because

otherwise it will not be delivered

0:26:200:26:25

in any meaningful form. That is

really what he was talking about.

0:26:250:26:27

What did you think when you heard

him say the comments, and reaching

0:26:270:26:30

the point of thinking we should have

a second referendum on EU

0:26:300:26:34

mentorship?

Yes, to an extent, and

what he is saying...

What was your

0:26:340:26:38

reaction?

That was my reaction. I

know Nigel, I know what was behind

0:26:380:26:43

what he was saying, so how it has

come across, yes, he was supportive

0:26:430:26:50

potential of a second referendum,

but that is not actually what he was

0:26:500:26:53

saying.

That is what he was saying!

"I am reaching the point of thinking

0:26:530:26:56

we should have a second referendum

on EU member ship."

But this needs

0:26:560:27:01

to be sorted out because the

Government is not delivering on

0:27:010:27:03

Brexit.

Patrick O'Flynn, colleagues,

says he is as wrong on this as Tony

0:27:030:27:09

Blair. Is he wrong right? -- a

colleague of yours.

Let's put it

0:27:090:27:16

like this, the question.

No, I could

elect that.

0:27:160:27:20

LAUGHTER

If Nigel believed we should have a

0:27:200:27:22

second referendum, and I agree that

is how it came across, but if he

0:27:220:27:25

believed that I would say he was

wrong, but the point is we do not

0:27:250:27:29

want a second referendum, absolutely

clearly.

Is that UK policy?

0:27:290:27:40

clearly.

Is that UK policy? Did he

miss speak?

To an extent, yes. If

0:27:400:27:42

the Government forces one on us it

would give us the opportunity to

0:27:420:27:47

decisively put the whole thing to

bed and say, you know what, you have

0:27:470:27:52

to deliver a proper exiting of the

European Union.

That is what he

0:27:520:27:55

meant? You've had a discussion sense

and decided that as the line you

0:27:550:27:59

have to put out because he has said

something deeply because what

0:27:590:28:05

evidence is there from the

Government they are even considering

0:28:050:28:07

one? -- he has said something deeply

unhelpful, because what evidence is

0:28:070:28:10

there.

There is a debate, as you

well know, Jo, about should we have

0:28:100:28:17

another referendum, should we have a

vote on a future agreement, or

0:28:170:28:23

should we not?

Can I put it to you

that actually before it was never

0:28:230:28:27

really being discussed as a viable

option apart from the Liberal

0:28:270:28:30

Democrats who actually were not sure

about a second referendum and now

0:28:300:28:35

are, until Nigel Farage Paul

Thorburn said, I think we should

0:28:350:28:37

have a second referendum. I don't

remember any of the other ministers

0:28:370:28:40

-- until Nigel

0:28:400:28:47

-- until Nigel Farage popped up.

This is a call to arms for the Leave

0:28:470:28:51

camp. If indeed the Conservative

Government was delivering a Brexit,

0:28:510:28:54

moving to appoint where we had a

meaningful leaving of the European

0:28:540:28:59

Union and the picture as to how we

were all going to emerge from it,

0:28:590:29:02

then indeed this would not be

necessary. But what he is saying,

0:29:020:29:07

that the Leave camp as a whole needs

to unite, mobilise and needs to make

0:29:070:29:11

sure that Theresa May and the

Government deliver Brexit, and they

0:29:110:29:14

are not doing so at the moment.

But

he has normalised it now, the issue,

0:29:140:29:19

and it will now be debated. He has

handed to people

0:29:190:29:33

like Andrew Adonis, Tony Blair, and

others within the Labour Party, the

0:29:360:29:39

parliamentary party, the Remainers,

he has handed them a gift?

I would

0:29:390:29:41

see if we have a second referendum

now I would agree with Nigel, we

0:29:410:29:44

would win it, hands down. So we are

not worried about that. We have had

0:29:440:29:47

a democratic mandate...

But he has

actually raised the whole prospect

0:29:470:29:49

of this being debated further. Do

you accept that? Big E ago against

0:29:490:29:54

-- did he go against party policy

when he said this?

Not in that

0:29:540:29:58

sense. If he had said, I want, or

our policy is to have one...

Are you

0:29:580:30:06

going to take any action against

him?

No.

It is not official UK

0:30:060:30:11

policy. Do you think it has confused

the issue for Ukip borders and

0:30:110:30:15

others?

I think he has confused a

lot of people and Henry is doing a

0:30:150:30:19

valiant job of trying to defend the

remarks of his predecessor, which

0:30:190:30:22

seemed to me to be all about Nigel

Farage needing to be in the glare of

0:30:220:30:29

publicity. He can't go a few days

without getting the attention, but

0:30:290:30:31

David Cameron, Nick Clegg, all sorts

of people before the last Brexit

0:30:310:30:38

referendum, they said this is your

one chance to decide your future in

0:30:380:30:41

Europe, and whatever you decide, as

the British people, we will

0:30:410:30:45

implement the decision. That is what

counts. I'm glad to see Henry

0:30:450:30:50

nodding, and I think any attempt to

revisit that decision now will upset

0:30:500:30:55

people's faith in democracy, it is

not just the wrong thing to do for

0:30:550:30:58

Brexit, I think it is dangerous for

public faith in our institutions.

0:30:580:31:04

Should the Labour Party be thinking

about making a policy to offer the

0:31:040:31:07

idea of

second referendum on the

deal?

Possibly, yes.

0:31:070:31:17

Possibly yes. This idea of rerunning

the referendum is a kind of assault

0:31:180:31:23

on democracy. What is this, Brexit

referendum, the final showdown? The

0:31:230:31:29

last battle? How long will it go on?

But I think there is a case to be

0:31:290:31:34

made potentially for having a

referendum on the deal.

Should

0:31:340:31:39

Labour be clear on that?

Our concern

on a second referendum is, and in a

0:31:390:31:48

broader context, it sets a

precedent, we've had a democratic

0:31:480:31:51

exercise, a decision from it and

Amanda date has effectively been

0:31:510:31:56

issued -- mandate has been issued.

Wait a minute, some people don't

0:31:560:32:00

like it, let's revisit it.

Democratic decisions...

People will

0:32:000:32:05

never trust the leaders again, they

didn't like the decision, don't...

0:32:050:32:12

Nigel Farage, in the referendum,

said if the result was closer to be

0:32:120:32:16

unfinished business. He implied at

the time that there would and should

0:32:160:32:20

be another referendum if it was

close, although the other way.

I

0:32:200:32:25

think we could quote Nigel Farage to

find support for most eventualities.

0:32:250:32:30

Your private life has caused

headlines recently and Nigel Farage

0:32:300:32:34

says it is good for Ukip publicity.

Do you agree?

This week has been

0:32:340:32:40

quite quiet, so I've had a lot of

time to think about that subject.

0:32:400:32:46

Tell us your thoughts.

Quite

honestly I would not have wanted in

0:32:460:32:50

any way the publicity this has

attracted. I would like it to die

0:32:500:32:55

down. I've got things to sort out in

my private life. I want to do it and

0:32:550:32:59

focus on the job in hand which is

the sort of stuff we've been talking

0:32:590:33:02

about.

Does it affect your job as

leader of Ukip? Some have called for

0:33:020:33:09

you to quit.

Somehow but and

receiving a huge amount of support

0:33:090:33:13

as well saying this is his private

life, let's get on with his agenda

0:33:130:33:18

in turning around the internal

workings of the party so that we

0:33:180:33:21

have a firm solid base for exactly

the sort of mobilisation we have

0:33:210:33:26

been discussing.

Henry Bolton, thank

you.

Thank you very much.

0:33:260:33:31

Social media is having a big impact

in lots of areas of society,

0:33:310:33:34

and politics is no exception.

0:33:340:33:36

But how are the parties adapting

what they do in that traditional

0:33:360:33:42

forum, the House of Commons,

to this new electoral battlefield?

0:33:420:33:44

Here's Emma Vardy.

0:33:440:33:45

These days the parties just love

delivering short sound bites to your

0:33:450:33:48

social media feed.

0:33:480:33:56

Each Wednesday after PMQs it doesn't

take long for what's happening

0:33:560:33:59

in there to pop up on here.

0:33:590:34:02

The Prime Minister needs to

understand that it's her policies...

0:34:020:34:04

And they're getting

rather adept at it.

0:34:040:34:07

Mr Speaker...

0:34:070:34:15

Almost every week, Jeremy Corbyn

asks a question which to those

0:34:160:34:19

watching PMQs might not sound much

like a question at all.

0:34:190:34:22

They have one eye on what

soundbite's going on Facebook,

0:34:220:34:24

and, packaged in the right way,

it has the potential to get hundreds

0:34:240:34:27

and thousands of views.

0:34:270:34:33

Add some bold subtitles,

a punchy headline graphic...

0:34:330:34:34

And share.

0:34:340:34:35

They're hoping their leader's big

moment will go viral.

0:34:350:34:39

Isn't that an admission that

under his captaincy this

0:34:390:34:41

ship is indeed sinking?

0:34:410:34:46

Could they even be pre-scripting

the perfect 30-second

0:34:460:34:48

social media rant?

0:34:480:34:54

I'll leave you to decide,

but just look how far we've come.

0:34:540:35:02

Parliament was once reluctant

to even make debates public -

0:35:050:35:07

before the first radio broadcast

of the House of Commons

0:35:070:35:10

began in 1975.

0:35:100:35:11

I refer the honourable

gentleman to the reply

0:35:110:35:13

I gave some moments ago.

0:35:130:35:14

Fast forward to the mid-90s,

and most newspapers contain

0:35:140:35:16

straightforward reports of political

debates, until that died out.

0:35:160:35:24

Now this, it seems, is political

communication evolving once again.

0:35:240:35:26

So I think that they have

desperately tried to change the way

0:35:260:35:29

they actually try to communicate,

especially trying to reach young

0:35:290:35:31

people, and trying to make it more

sensationalist and more adversarial,

0:35:310:35:34

and really a very very

simple single message.

0:35:340:35:36

Twenty-three thousand...

0:35:360:35:37

APPLAUSE

0:35:370:35:39

The Conservatives successfully

targeted voters using Facebook

0:35:390:35:42

in the 2015 election campaign,

helping them to an

0:35:420:35:44

unexpected victory.

0:35:440:35:47

But last year Labour appear to have

done far better online.

0:35:470:35:49

Well, I think politicians are trying

to reach people on social media

0:35:490:35:52

who are exactly the opposite,

frankly, of those who watch

0:35:520:35:55

Daily Politics on a Sunday.

0:35:550:35:56

They're younger, they've got

a changed media diet -

0:35:560:35:58

they're not actually necessarily

watching much television,

0:35:580:36:01

and certainly not necessarily

consuming much political content.

0:36:010:36:03

Sound bites are nothing new.

0:36:030:36:05

I think now what we are simply

seeing is sound bites

0:36:050:36:07

being weaponised for social media

as much as they've been used

0:36:070:36:10

in mainstream media up until now.

0:36:100:36:13

Is it really even worth anything

for the electorate in terms

0:36:130:36:19

of understanding the party

or what their real

0:36:190:36:21

intentions and messages are?

0:36:210:36:22

I mean, I think there

is a fear that, you know,

0:36:220:36:26

having to fight above all these

algorithms, fight above all the

0:36:260:36:29

unbelievable noise of social media,

is actually simplifying a message

0:36:290:36:31

down to something that isn't

even a message at all.

0:36:310:36:34

You know, it is simply a wham-bam,

really reducing politics even more

0:36:340:36:37

than PMQs itself down to a kind

of Punch and Judy show.

0:36:370:36:40

But, you know, the digital

world is an amazing

0:36:400:36:42

new form of engagement.

0:36:420:36:43

It's where plenty of people go

to to learn about politics,

0:36:430:36:46

and where some people only learn

about politics, and of course

0:36:460:36:50

if we are actually going to get

successive generations to actually

0:36:500:36:51

care about politics and have

something to do with it,

0:36:510:36:54

politics needs to transfer

onto the digital world.

0:36:540:36:57

We are putting record funding

into the NHS and record funding...

0:36:570:37:03

So next time you spot a certain kind

of rant over the dispatch box,

0:37:030:37:06

you'll know they're speaking

to the people who might just come

0:37:060:37:09

across it later on Facebook.

0:37:090:37:14

Have you noticed the strategic

change in Prime Minister's

0:37:140:37:18

Questions, in the Commons in

particular that the messages to go

0:37:180:37:20

out on social media, no longer the

TV bulletins, no longer a message

0:37:200:37:25

beyond the chamber, it is to the

core support.

Definitely there has

0:37:250:37:30

been a change. People have clocked

that very few people watch PMQs live

0:37:300:37:35

except through your show. Our

hundreds and thousands of viewers!

0:37:350:37:42

Apart from those. I think Labour has

been working quite closely with its

0:37:420:37:46

social media team said they have

figured out that a bit of Jeremy

0:37:460:37:52

Corbyn's PMQs can be shared, and it

will be something quite generic,

0:37:520:37:58

something that is not time specific.

And they do very well on social

0:37:580:38:02

media. As we have seen during the

last election. Also it has been

0:38:020:38:08

shown, I think the BBC survey showed

that people who consume venues of

0:38:080:38:12

the Internet are more likely to vote

Labour and Labour voters are more

0:38:120:38:17

likely to share social media

content, so they are obviously

0:38:170:38:21

taking advantage of those things as

well.

A conscious decision there,

0:38:210:38:26

the Tories playing catch-up.

Definitely getting better but a long

0:38:260:38:31

way behind. I think you can

exaggerate this. There's always been

0:38:310:38:36

a sound bite element to PMQs. The

six o'clock news can only give 20 or

0:38:360:38:41

30 seconds. The difference is now,

sometimes the clips on social media

0:38:410:38:45

are longer than the TV gave to them.

And of course it's not Laura

0:38:450:38:50

Kuenssberg or the director of the

producer of the news deciding what

0:38:500:38:54

clips go out there, it's the

political parties. So we are seeing

0:38:540:38:58

a transfer of power, the old

gatekeepers to the media no longer

0:38:580:39:03

have the control that they used to.

Not a bad thing.

Let's leave it

0:39:030:39:07

there.

0:39:070:39:09

The Government had a big-ish

reshuffle at the beginning

0:39:090:39:11

of the week, and Labour will now

have to have a smaller reshuffle

0:39:110:39:14

of its own after the departure

yesterday of the Shadow Fire

0:39:140:39:17

Minister Chris Williamson.

0:39:170:39:18

Mr Williamson's resignation

was reportedly a mutual decision

0:39:180:39:20

reached with leader Jeremy Corbyn,

and came the day after he suggested

0:39:200:39:27

council tax bills for the highest

value homes in England

0:39:270:39:29

should be doubled.

0:39:290:39:30

Well, Chris Williamson

himself can tell us more -

0:39:300:39:32

he joins us now from Derby.

0:39:320:39:36

Chris, did you resign or were you

sacked?

No, I stepped down because I

0:39:360:39:43

wanted to spend a greater amount of

my time campaigning and to give

0:39:430:39:47

advice ordinary party members.

Labour is now a mass movement. You

0:39:470:39:53

probably saw Jeremy launch the

Community Action Units the party has

0:39:530:39:59

established. He's also been clear he

wants to give party members a

0:39:590:40:03

greater opportunity to influence

party policy. I want to be a

0:40:030:40:07

conduit, to be the members champion

so that their views can be

0:40:070:40:19

aired. And being on the front bench

constrains what you can say. And

0:40:200:40:22

given the varied ideas that are sure

to come up from the grassroots it

0:40:220:40:25

would have been more difficult, I

think, to give voice to those...

0:40:250:40:27

Clearly because you have had to go

as a result of it. So clearly it was

0:40:270:40:31

proving difficult. Quite a few of

your colleagues have suggested that

0:40:310:40:33

you were sacked. Wes streeting said

doubling the council tax which is

0:40:330:40:39

what you proposed will never be

Labour policy, swift action by

0:40:390:40:42

Jeremy Corbyn. And Clive Lewis said

your fate and that of Toby Young

0:40:420:40:48

demonstrates that with both parties

neck and neck and in further

0:40:480:40:51

parliamentary long haul, the war of

attrition will see each side picking

0:40:510:40:55

of those around their two respective

generals. They obviously thought

0:40:550:40:58

that you were sacked.

0:40:580:41:03

that you were sacked.

Wes has

misunderstood the idea of looted.

0:41:030:41:06

Its Tory party legislation

introduced in 2012 that provides the

0:41:060:41:10

opportunity for local authorities to

offer variable discounts to council

0:41:100:41:17

taxpayers in their local area, and

also give them the ability to raise

0:41:170:41:22

the council tax above the threshold

which is specified by the Secretary

0:41:220:41:27

of State at any given time. Of

course this whole idea would have to

0:41:270:41:30

be agreed by the electorate in local

areas. So it's not a question of any

0:41:300:41:35

local authority deciding

unilaterally to double council tax

0:41:350:41:38

and it isn't about doubling council

tax, there's a range of

0:41:380:41:42

permutations. In actual fact what

this would do if any local authority

0:41:420:41:46

to get forward would be to protect

the vast majority of householders,

0:41:460:41:50

certainly those on the lowest

incomes would have their council tax

0:41:500:41:53

frozen, possibly reduced, and the

burden would therefore be carried by

0:41:530:41:58

those with the broadest shoulders. A

budget for the many not the few.

Yet

0:41:580:42:04

you haven't convinced those in your

party and at the top of your party.

0:42:040:42:08

Andrew Quinn, let me just ask you,

he says it isn't the party policy

0:42:080:42:13

and it conflicted with the party

manifesto pledge not to raise taxes

0:42:130:42:18

on 95% of the public and you are

freelancing. What do you say to him?

0:42:180:42:25

People probably haven't fully

understood the idea I have floated,

0:42:250:42:29

initially, the six months ago.

He

should know... He is Shadow...

The

0:42:290:42:37

point I am making is that I'm not

suggesting it should be party

0:42:370:42:40

policy, it's already the law of the

land.

So what were you suggesting?

I

0:42:400:42:47

am simply suggesting that local

authorities can, if they wish, seize

0:42:470:42:51

back the initiative. After eight

years of relentless austerity and

0:42:510:42:55

cuts, which has put people in a

position where they are struggling

0:42:550:43:04

to meet their basic obligations,...

How many Labour Party members

0:43:040:43:12

support this idea?

Any local

authority could take it forward if

0:43:120:43:16

they wanted to stop the cuts which

have been relentless over the last

0:43:160:43:20

eight years. It is an opportunity

for local authorities to do it if

0:43:200:43:24

they wish.

Is that they haven't

supported it. Is it correct that

0:43:240:43:29

people on the front bench should not

contradict party policy?

Jo, you are

0:43:290:43:36

getting confused. It is not about

party policy, this is already a

0:43:360:43:41

Labour policy...

I am asking, do you

think members of the front bench

0:43:410:43:46

should stick to party policy and not

hand ammunition to the opposition?

I

0:43:460:43:51

don't think it's about handing

admonition to the opposition, that's

0:43:510:43:54

the last thing I'd wish to do.

But

you have done it.

Hold on, any local

0:43:540:44:01

authority, if they were to take this

on board, would come I think,

0:44:010:44:05

potentially find this to be

something which is very...

Let's

0:44:050:44:11

show our viewers what the Tories

have done with what they see as the

0:44:110:44:14

ammunition. It has now been put up

on screen. Chris Williamson of

0:44:140:44:18

Labour has put forward plans that

could see council tax doubled. I

0:44:180:44:22

know that you say this should is not

what you said, but this is what they

0:44:220:44:30

have said, and has not helped

Labour's campaign ahead of the local

0:44:300:44:35

elections this year?

You don't

expect the Tories to tell the truth

0:44:350:44:38

and clearly they are misrepresenting

me. It is interesting that it is

0:44:380:44:42

worth reinforcing the point that

this has only been made possible

0:44:420:44:46

because of legislation that the

Tories are brought in. It was the

0:44:460:44:50

Conservatives that introduced the

local government Finance act in

0:44:500:44:54

2012, allowing local authorities

this flexibility. Let's also

0:44:540:44:57

remember the Tories have imposed

huge swingeing funding cuts on local

0:44:570:45:03

authorities. They're in an

impossible position now.

Apparently

0:45:030:45:09

you have a new role. What is it?

Jeremy's asked me, I've been

0:45:090:45:15

conflicted about this for some time

because I wanted to speak on a range

0:45:150:45:19

of issues and push the envelope as

far as possible although it has been

0:45:190:45:22

constraining to some extent being on

the front bench because you are

0:45:220:45:27

constrained by collective

responsibility, is not to say that I

0:45:270:45:30

was seeking to move away from the

Fire and Rescue Service because it

0:45:300:45:34

is something I feel passionate about

and I will still be a active member

0:45:340:45:40

of the group, the Jeremy asked me to

think through some of our future

0:45:400:45:47

policy agenda on that regard and in

addition to draw up a policy

0:45:470:45:52

programme for consideration in

relation to animal rights. That's

0:45:520:45:54

something I've been passionate about

all my life, I've been of Cregan for

0:45:540:46:00

40 years and I am a hunt saboteur.

It is something I'm keen to do to

0:46:000:46:04

support the party in taking that

Ford -- I have been a vegan for 40

0:46:040:46:09

years.

So you are still on good

terms with Jeremy Corbyn even though

0:46:090:46:14

you've parted company on this.

He's

a close friend of mine, a good

0:46:140:46:20

comrade and in my view the best

leader this party has ever had. And

0:46:200:46:23

I include in that Clement Attlee.

And he will be the best Prime

0:46:230:46:28

Minister, not just the best Labour

has ever produced but the best this

0:46:280:46:31

country has ever produced if we win

the election because he will

0:46:310:46:34

transform the country and change the

balance of power for ever. I

0:46:340:46:38

genuinely hope he gets that

opportunity and I am sure he will

0:46:380:46:41

with the policies we are developing

out.

You couldn't be more clear with

0:46:410:46:46

that. No hard feelings, then, thank

you, Chris Williamson.

0:46:460:46:53

Not at all!

0:46:530:46:55

Theresa May's position on Brexit may

have won her plenty of admirers

0:46:550:46:57

among Conservative supporters,

but those don't include

0:46:570:46:59

the nightclub owner

Peter Stringfellow.

0:46:590:47:00

He's been a donor to the party -

here he is pictured last year

0:47:000:47:04

with the Prime Minister.

0:47:040:47:05

But now he says he's

ready to ditch the Tories

0:47:050:47:07

over their support for Brexit.

0:47:070:47:08

And Peter Stringfellow joins us now.

0:47:080:47:11

Why are you prepared now to ditch

the Tories? I don't like the word

0:47:110:47:14

pitch.

OK, say quitting.

I don't

like what is happening. I don't

0:47:140:47:20

believe that Theresa May is a

Brexiteer. In her heart, and I

0:47:200:47:28

believe that the hard-core

conservatives are all Remainers. The

0:47:280:47:34

only chap you have had on who is a

real Brexiteer, nice chap, you just

0:47:340:47:39

had him on, Henry...

Bolton.

This is

something people simply do not want.

0:47:390:47:45

I am a European, British European,

and that is where I see our future.

0:47:450:47:50

Right, secure quitting the party.

You will no longer be a member or

0:47:500:47:54

donate money to the party?

Not

unless they change. You spoke about

0:47:540:47:58

the referendum, all this stuff about

democracy come a forget about that.

0:47:580:48:02

Let's just have another general

election, Labour parties be honest.

0:48:020:48:05

You seem to be honest. I have been

speaking to you. Let's be honest,

0:48:050:48:10

totally, and let's have a general

election when all parties see where

0:48:100:48:13

they stand.

We have had that

already. You didn't get the answer

0:48:130:48:18

you wanted.

No, it was a sham, a

total sham. £360 million going every

0:48:180:48:25

week to the National... Of course it

was a sham! Immigration is another

0:48:250:48:30

one.

But when did you have this

moment, in your mind, that said,

0:48:300:48:34

that's it, I've had it with the

Tories. Because we have a picture of

0:48:340:48:37

you with the Prime Minister, and you

were certainly supporting the Tories

0:48:370:48:42

at the election, weren't you?

I was,

yes.

Before that, you supported

0:48:420:48:47

Ukip, and you get as far as I

know...

No, no. I just supported a

0:48:470:48:55

counsellor, in Westminster, and I

would do that again tomorrow,

0:48:550:48:59

against the...

But they are the

party wanted out of Europe?

Not in

0:48:590:49:03

Westminster council they didn't!

Forget that bit. I am and have been

0:49:030:49:10

longer than the majority of

politicians now a conservative, from

0:49:100:49:14

the early 60s. When I was in

Sheffield I was probably the only

0:49:140:49:19

guy who voted Conservative.

And you

still supported them in the

0:49:190:49:21

election? But in the general

election she made it clear...

I woke

0:49:210:49:27

up and you're right, wait a minute,

this is all wrong, it's not going to

0:49:270:49:31

change. It's not going to change

unless people like me stand up and

0:49:310:49:35

say, it's got to change. And we need

more change now. Let's have a

0:49:350:49:40

general election referendum,

whatever you want to call it, and

0:49:400:49:43

let's get it straight.

You want to

persuade Peter Stringfellow to stay

0:49:430:49:48

within the Conservative Party?

Not

particularly.

That is honest, I

0:49:480:49:54

suppose.

We will all cope and you

are concerned with your businesses.

0:49:540:49:56

I think what we are seeing

post-Brexit is a huge re-juggling of

0:49:560:50:00

the British political landscape.

With the last election year at the

0:50:000:50:04

extraordinary thing where Theresa

May was basically winning as many

0:50:040:50:06

working-class voters as Labour was,

and a lot of more middle-class

0:50:060:50:12

people were voting for Jeremy

Corbyn. Something is changing.

0:50:120:50:15

People like Peter Stringfellow,

perhaps more metropolitan, moving

0:50:150:50:18

away from the Tories, and lots of

people who are the victims of

0:50:180:50:23

Europe's immigration policies, there

are cultural policies, they are

0:50:230:50:26

saying enough is enough.

People

don't care about agricultural

0:50:260:50:33

policies...

They might not get in

London. Answer me this. As a staunch

0:50:330:50:38

conservative like I have been, do

you honestly believe that Theresa

0:50:380:50:42

May is a Brexiteer? I think she has

docked the question when she has

0:50:420:50:45

been asked! I think she is someone

who is seizing the opportunities of

0:50:450:50:51

Brexit.

Who are you going to vote

for now? Peter Stringfellow, if the

0:50:510:50:56

party...

Vince Cable

right now and I

don't know much about the Lib Dems.

0:50:560:51:02

They always held a slight interest.

In the old days, David Steel, had a

0:51:020:51:07

great respect for him. Vince Cable

is the man who is totally honest at

0:51:070:51:12

the moment and for me...

You are

supporting the idea of a second

0:51:120:51:15

referendum and a general election?

Right, so you are going to support

0:51:150:51:19

the Liberal Democrats? Will you give

money to them?

Why not? I'll give

0:51:190:51:24

them a few pound.

Are you aware

whether

they want your support,

0:51:240:51:30

Peter?

LAUGHTER

0:51:300:51:36

'S Heiton go I love everybody, and a

nightclub owner! You walk into my

0:51:360:51:41

club, I love you --

well, I love

everybody.

Do you think Labour will

0:51:410:51:46

have to be clever very soon about

the Brexit it once, whether we stay

0:51:460:51:50

in the Single Market or the customs

union?

You know, I am looking

0:51:500:51:55

forward to Peter joining the idea of

creating a society for the many and

0:51:550:51:59

not the few, and then maybe we can

welcome, read Stringfellow to the

0:51:590:52:04

project!

Is labour-saving will stay

in the Single Market and the customs

0:52:040:52:10

union would you support the Labour

Party? -- if the Labour Party say

0:52:100:52:15

they will stay in the supermarket.

Possibly! The country is divided on

0:52:150:52:19

the medal. My answer, stay with the

EC, the British EC, whatever you

0:52:190:52:24

want a to see or call it.

PU.

0:52:240:52:39

--

The EU.

0:52:390:52:40

The burning question in American

politics this week has

0:52:400:52:42

been will Oprah Winfrey

run for president?

0:52:420:52:44

The talk show host gave

a well-received speech at an awards

0:52:440:52:46

ceremony in Hollywood at the start

of the week and, perhaps in a sign

0:52:460:52:50

of the impact of that other TV

celebrity-turned politician

0:52:500:52:52

Donald Trump, her appearance

was followed by a flurry

0:52:520:52:54

of speculation that she could run

as a Democrat against

0:52:540:52:56

Donald Trump in 2020.

0:52:560:52:58

In a country that's

elected Ronald Reagan

0:52:580:53:00

and Arnold Schwarzenegger,

the idea of celebrities running

0:53:000:53:02

for office isn't that unusual.

0:53:020:53:03

But here in Britain,

why have famous names largely failed

0:53:030:53:05

to break through at the ballot box?

0:53:050:53:07

The pub landlord stood

against the Ukip leader Nigel Farage

0:53:070:53:09

at the 2015 general election

in South Thanet.

0:53:090:53:11

Not everyone was impressed.

0:53:110:53:12

You're making a mockery of Thanet.

0:53:120:53:14

Why are you doing it?

0:53:140:53:15

Well, Farage lost,

and so did Al Murray.

0:53:150:53:19

International drug smuggler to MP -

it's not the usual career

0:53:190:53:22

trajectory, but that's

what 'Mr Nice' Howard Marks

0:53:220:53:24

tried to do in 1997.

0:53:240:53:26

He stood for the Legalise Cannabis

Party in four different seats,

0:53:260:53:28

and didn't win any.

0:53:280:53:33

Also in 97 former glamour model

Katie Price, then known as Jordan,

0:53:330:53:36

ran for election as an independent -

she lost her deposit.

0:53:360:53:40

It's been a great experience, and

it's been a memory I won't forget.

0:53:400:53:44

Celebrities in politics

are not a new thing.

0:53:440:53:46

In 1963 health scare to Prime

Minister Harold Macmillan resigning.

0:53:460:53:54

With Mr Alec Douglas-Home

taking over the reins.

0:53:540:53:56

The problem was he needed

to resign his seat in the Lords

0:53:560:53:59

and find a safe Commons seat.

0:53:590:54:03

Actor and Private Eye founder

Willie Rushton was so disgusted

0:54:030:54:05

at the Conservative machinations

that he stood against the PM.

0:54:050:54:08

He polled just 45 votes.

0:54:080:54:13

And, as you know, here

at the Daily Politics

0:54:130:54:15

we take our public service

obligations very seriously,

0:54:150:54:21

so when Bez from the Happy Mondays

stood as an anti-fracking candidate

0:54:210:54:24

in Salford and Eccles, we made sure

to hold them to account.

0:54:240:54:27

in Salford and Eccles, we made sure

to hold himm to account.

0:54:270:54:29

in Salford and Eccles,

we made sure to hold him to account.

0:54:290:54:32

On this platform of free food, free

energy, free anything.

If we don't

0:54:320:54:36

move away from that, then the

consequences are dire for us

0:54:360:54:46

consequences are dire for us poor.

There have been some success

0:54:470:54:50

stories. The MP for Clacton in 2017.

I have stood on many stages across

0:54:500:55:01

45 countries in the world, but this

has to be the finest.

0:55:010:55:04

And we're joined now

by the entertainment

0:55:040:55:06

reporter Emma Bullimore.

0:55:060:55:09

Welcome to the programme. What do

you think about Oprah for President?

0:55:090:55:12

I think it would be really exciting

but I have to say I think it is

0:55:120:55:15

wishful thinking at the moment. I

think everybody got excited when

0:55:150:55:22

Obama left the White House, Michelle

2020, and then she made this great

0:55:220:55:27

speech at the Golden Globes, and

people thought, just maybe, a great

0:55:270:55:31

speech, the way she presented it,

but I think at the moment it is a

0:55:310:55:34

bit early.

It may be early, but

there is a history, is not a

0:55:340:55:39

tradition, certainly a history of

liberties succeeding in politics in

0:55:390:55:43

America in a way that they do not

here. Why?

If you go into a ballot

0:55:430:55:49

box in America you have those

presidential names, but here you're

0:55:490:55:52

supposed to be voting for the party.

Theresa May, whatever your opinions

0:55:520:55:56

on her, she is not dripping

impersonality, it is about her

0:55:560:56:00

policies, whereas there is a bit

more about who you are as a person,

0:56:000:56:03

and if you are having this big

campaign that lasts for a long time

0:56:030:56:06

and requires financial backing, why

not pick someone who manages their

0:56:060:56:09

image, is good at social media, and

has a following already?

Is it just

0:56:090:56:14

about the system and the money here

that we don't have the celebrities,

0:56:140:56:18

the likes of Oprah Winfrey and

Donald Trump succeeding in getting

0:56:180:56:21

to the top of politics here?

I don't

know. Maybe we prefer actual

0:56:210:56:27

political expertise...

I thought

experts were out at the moment!

I

0:56:270:56:31

don't think they should be out. It

is a very disposable approach as

0:56:310:56:35

well, not just celebrity culture but

disposable culture, rather than

0:56:350:56:39

looking at why politics has gone

wrong and why it is alienating so

0:56:390:56:42

many people, we have just gone, just

get rid of it, let's bring

0:56:420:56:45

celebrities in instead, which seems

a very shallow approach.

Do you

0:56:450:56:49

agree?

It is not possible to have no

political experience and become

0:56:490:56:56

elected, you would need to be

elected locally and so on and so you

0:56:560:57:00

comment not as a celebrity but a

politician but in America it is

0:57:000:57:03

different.

Would you like to see

more celebrity input? Glenda Jackson

0:57:030:57:08

became an MP, did go through the

system and did that in the Comments

0:57:080:57:12

and left relatively recently and she

was probably quite well known before

0:57:120:57:15

that as an actress.

-- the Commons.

Yes, she was, and I think this might

0:57:150:57:27

involve Oprah Winfrey, however good

they are, because Donald Trump

0:57:270:57:30

promise to make an impact of the

working class people of America but

0:57:300:57:33

all the things he passed, the

massive tax cuts, they have really

0:57:330:57:36

benefited exactly the same kind of

people

0:57:360:57:41

benefited exactly the same kind of

people, the better off, that the

0:57:410:57:42

Republican Party has always

benefited. My hope in America is

0:57:420:57:45

that there will be a swing back to

more conventional politics where

0:57:450:57:48

people are judged on their policy

agenda rather than their

0:57:480:57:52

personality. Perhaps we have

learned, and the American people

0:57:520:57:54

have led to this episode, that

personality isn't necessarily the

0:57:540:57:58

answer.

We have at the cult of

personality with Jeremy Corbyn, even

0:57:580:58:01

if he did not start out as

celebrity, Rachel Shabi. He has

0:58:010:58:06

become a bit of a cult personality

at things like Glastonbury?

That was

0:58:060:58:10

not really a cult of personality but

it was people engaging with what at

0:58:100:58:14

Labour leader had to say for the

first time in a long time. There was

0:58:140:58:18

a lot of playfulness there, a lot of

irony. It's not really the same as

0:58:180:58:25

progress is saying Oprah for

president, that is an entirely

0:58:250:58:28

different proposition.

We turned

politicians into celebrity, look at

0:58:280:58:32

Boris on Have I Got News For You?

Yes, but it is very different view

0:58:320:58:40

in other ways, although perhaps not

such a dissimilar place. Thank you

0:58:400:58:44

for coming in. Thank you both for

being our guests of the day, on a

0:58:440:58:48

very lively programme.

No quiz of

the day?

I can't believe you brought

0:58:480:58:52

that up! We will do an especially

big one for you next time.

0:58:520:58:55

That's all for today.

0:58:550:58:56

Thanks to my guests.

0:58:560:58:57

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:570:59:01

Journalists Tim Montgomerie and Rachel Shabi join Jo Coburn. They look at the elections for new members to Labour's ruling NEC with Momentum head Jon Lansman and speak to UKIP leader Henry Bolton about the prospects of a second referendum on Britain leaving the EU. Plus Jo talks to Peter Stringfellow about why he's leaving the Conservative party.