11/01/2018 Daily Politics


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


11/01/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Graham Brady, chairman of the influential 1922 Committee of Conservative backbench MPs, to discuss the government's 25-Year Environment Plan.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 11/01/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome

to the Daily Politics.

0:00:380:00:41

Theresa May declares war

on plastic, as she wraps

0:00:410:00:43

the Conservative Party in policies

that promote conservation.

0:00:430:00:47

But is her new-found

environmentalism about

0:00:470:00:49

politics or principle?

0:00:490:00:52

Not such a happy New Year

for the Health Secretary,

0:00:520:00:54

as the NHS records its worst

performance in more than a decade.

0:00:540:01:00

Is more cash the answer

to the health service's woes?

0:01:000:01:04

They may have the most MPs,

but the Conservatives are only

0:01:040:01:06

the fourth biggest political party

in the UK.

0:01:060:01:10

Does it matter if they've fewer

foot-soldiers than their rivals?

0:01:100:01:13

And, leading Brexiteers pay

a visit to the EU's chief

0:01:130:01:16

negotiator in Brussels -

and they came bearing gifts.

0:01:160:01:20

But how well did the contents of

the hamper represent modern Britain?

0:01:200:01:27

All that in the next hour.

0:01:300:01:32

And with us for the whole

of the programme today,

0:01:320:01:35

one of the few Conservative MPs

who wasn't given a job in

0:01:350:01:38

Conservative headquarters this week.

0:01:380:01:41

But he did get the consolation

prize of a Knighthood.

0:01:410:01:43

Sir Graham Brady,

welcome to the programme.

0:01:430:01:48

Thank you very much.

0:01:480:01:50

First today - you can't

accuse the Government

0:01:500:01:52

of lacking long-term thinking.

0:01:520:01:53

Theresa May has launched

a 25-year plan to improve

0:01:530:01:55

the natural environment.

0:01:550:01:56

At the centre of it a commitment

to eliminate all avoidable

0:01:560:01:58

plastic waste by 2042.

0:01:580:02:01

She also wants to see plastic-free

aisles in supermarkets,

0:02:010:02:05

and today's announcements come

on top of an extension

0:02:050:02:08

of the 5p plastic bag charge

to include smaller shops,

0:02:080:02:13

and a ban on mirco-beads used

in cosmetic products.

0:02:130:02:16

Let's hear what the Prime Minister

said this morning.

0:02:160:02:22

In our comprehensive 25 year

environment plan, we are setting out

0:02:220:02:26

how we would protect and renew our

natural inheritance for the next

0:02:260:02:30

generation. How we will make our air

and water cleaner, and our natural

0:02:300:02:35

habitats more diverse and healthy.

How we will create a better world

0:02:350:02:39

for ourselves and our children. It's

a national plan of action, with

0:02:390:02:44

international ambitions. But what it

really speaks to is something much

0:02:440:02:49

more personal for each of us as

human beings. That is the impulse to

0:02:490:02:54

care for and nurture our own

surroundings.

Theresa May. Graham

0:02:540:02:59

Brady, I don't remember the Prime

Minister talking with such fervour

0:02:590:03:03

about the environment. Is this

really about principle and genuine

0:03:030:03:08

concern, or political expediency?

I'm sure it's genuine concern, and I

0:03:080:03:12

think it's something we all feel. We

all saw the pictures a few months

0:03:120:03:16

ago of the island of plastic in the

oceans. It's a disgrace.

0:03:160:03:26

oceans. It's a disgrace. I saw it

myself some years ago visiting Hong

0:03:260:03:28

Kong, I saw a whole tide of plastic

coming up on what would otherwise be

0:03:280:03:31

a beautiful beach. It's something

that is unacceptable and something

0:03:310:03:33

that could get worse. We must make

sure we do something to tackle it.

0:03:330:03:35

Do you Black Mole regulation on

companies and on consumers, to a

0:03:350:03:40

certain extent, to deal with this

plastics issue?

Well, I want to see

0:03:400:03:44

the plastic going, and I'm glad the

Government is setting a target, we

0:03:440:03:48

will do it by whatever means

business are to achieve it.

But do

0:03:480:03:52

you support more regulation and tax

-- taxes?

It is clearly unacceptable

0:03:520:03:58

to have this plastic building up, we

need to tackle it, it's so

0:03:580:04:04

unnecessary, many of us are driven

mad when we go to the supermarket

0:04:040:04:06

and we end up buying four apples in

a plastic packs, it's crazy.

Does it

0:04:060:04:12

need legal backing? If you are

driven mad by it and see it as

0:04:120:04:20

unnecessary, it you are prepared to

see higher taxes, should there be

0:04:200:04:24

legal batting and sanctions for

companies that don't abide?

I'm very

0:04:240:04:27

happy to see that if it proves

necessary.

What proves necessary?

I

0:04:270:04:33

want to see progress. If what it

takes is legislation, if what it

0:04:330:04:39

takes is taxation, then, yes, we

should do something about it. I want

0:04:390:04:43

to see a return to the paper bags at

the greengrocer, when he used to do

0:04:430:04:48

the twist...

Some of them still do!

25 years, that's not a very speedy

0:04:480:04:54

plan, is it? Nothing is going to

happen immediately. When do you want

0:04:540:04:59

to see progress by?

0:04:590:05:04

to see progress by?

The evidence of

all of these things through history

0:05:060:05:08

is that you set the target, a

direction. I think the public is

0:05:080:05:10

really quite engaged with this. I

think there's a lot of sympathy with

0:05:100:05:13

action to tackle this. People are

encouraged in a direction, steps are

0:05:130:05:16

taken, targets are set, it is quite

likely these targets will be

0:05:160:05:20

accelerated.

You do think 25 years

is too much of a long-term plan?

0:05:200:05:27

Look, it's a start, it's a

direction, like the plan to phase

0:05:270:05:32

out the internal combustion engine.

The fact the Government has said it

0:05:320:05:35

and the direction is clear is very

positive.

You obviously feel

0:05:350:05:39

strongly about it. Do you think it

is enough to solve the party was my

0:05:390:05:43

collection problem in terms of

attracting different kinds of

0:05:430:05:45

voters?

-- the party's election

problem. I have said before here in

0:05:450:05:51

the studio that pretty much

everything that could have gone

0:05:510:05:55

wrong did go wrong in the campaign.

But we still attracted 2.3 million

0:05:550:06:00

more voters and got a share of the

vote which gave Tony Blair and

0:06:000:06:03

Margaret Thatcher big majorities.

But you've lost your majority and

0:06:030:06:07

there were groups of voters...

We

lost the majority and we had much

0:06:070:06:12

stronger support in some parts of

the population than others. Clearly

0:06:120:06:15

we want to use some of these

different narratives, we want to

0:06:150:06:19

make clear that we are not only

talking about exit from the European

0:06:190:06:24

Union, as important as that is, we

want to make it clear that we do

0:06:240:06:28

engage with some other policy areas,

and the announcements this morning

0:06:280:06:33

are very important.

You feel this is

part of an electoral campaign and

0:06:330:06:38

strategy to attract...

Governments

are there to govern, but it is

0:06:380:06:41

always helpful if we do so in a way

that the the public approves of.

0:06:410:06:47

Now it's time for our daily quiz.

0:06:470:06:48

Yesterday, former Ukip MEP

Steven Woolfe led a delegation

0:06:480:06:51

of pro-Brexit business figures

in a meeting with Michel Barnier.

0:06:510:06:53

And to show off exactly

what Britain has to offer

0:06:530:06:55

after leaving the EU,

they gave the EU's Chief Brexit

0:06:550:06:58

Negotiator a basket containing some

of the best of Britain: The complete

0:06:580:07:01

works of Wiliam Shakespeare,

a biography of Winston Churchill,

0:07:010:07:03

and some of this country's tastiest

cuisine.

0:07:030:07:07

But our question for today is:

What wasn't in the hamper?

0:07:070:07:10

Was it Cheddar cheese?

0:07:100:07:11

PG Tips Eccles cakes?

0:07:110:07:13

Or marmite?

0:07:130:07:16

At the end of the show, Graham

will give us the correct answer.

0:07:160:07:24

I'm sure!

0:07:240:07:26

Now, reports last week suggested

that it had been a dire week

0:07:260:07:29

for the NHS in England.

0:07:290:07:30

Today we got the

figures to prove it.

0:07:300:07:32

A&E waiting times during December

in England were the worst since

0:07:320:07:35

the target was introduced in 2004.

Official figures show 85.1%

0:07:350:07:37

of patients were seen in four hours,

which is below the 95% target.

0:07:370:07:45

Last week, 55,000 non-urgent

operations were cancelled,

0:07:480:07:52

as winter pressure puts the NHS

system under strain.

0:07:520:07:56

And there is a growing consensus

among health care professionals that

0:07:560:08:01

a new long-term funding

solution for the health

0:08:010:08:03

service needs to be found,

and now some politicians

0:08:030:08:05

are joining the debate.

0:08:050:08:08

Tory MP Nick Boles has called

for taxes to be increased

0:08:080:08:11

to pay for NHS funding.

And at Prime Minister's Questions

0:08:110:08:15

yesterday, Andrew Murrison called

for a Royal Commission

0:08:150:08:19

on its future.

0:08:190:08:21

He proposes re-branding

National Insurance as

0:08:210:08:23

National Health Insurance,

with funds going

0:08:230:08:25

directly to the NHS.

At the same time, the NHS

0:08:250:08:30

Confederation has commissioned

a comprehensive study

0:08:300:08:33

into the funding needs

of health and social care

0:08:330:08:37

over the next 15 years.

And Chris Hopson, the Head of NHS

0:08:370:08:42

Providers, which represents

the majority of NHS Trusts

0:08:420:08:44

in England, had some strong

words for the Government

0:08:440:08:46

about the future of funding, too.

0:08:460:08:51

We have now reached a watershed

moment where it is clear the NHS can

0:08:510:08:54

no longer deliver the standards

of care set out in

0:08:540:08:57

the NHS consitution.

0:08:570:09:05

We therefore have a really

important decision to make -

0:09:050:09:10

do we abandon those standards,

0:09:100:09:14

which were incredibly hard-fought

to gain those standards

0:09:140:09:16

in the 2000s, or do we make

the decision on the long-term

0:09:160:09:19

funding of the NHS and social care

to ensure the NHS has enough money

0:09:190:09:23

to meet those standards?

0:09:230:09:24

We're joined now by the Shadow

Health Minister, Justin Madders.

0:09:240:09:26

I will come to you in just a moment.

First of all, Graham Brady, A&E

0:09:260:09:29

waiting times in England in December

were the worst on record, is that

0:09:290:09:32

acceptable?

Of course not, but the

NHS is doing more than it has ever

0:09:320:09:36

done, doing better than it has ever

done.

How can it be doing things

0:09:360:09:41

better if they are the worst on

record?

The real story is one of

0:09:410:09:45

growing demand, an ageing

population, more expensive health

0:09:450:09:48

care that is now available, it is

all marvellous but it creates

0:09:480:09:52

challenges for the NHS. And it is a

big, long term challenge that we

0:09:520:09:56

need to work together to try and

resolve.

It is not a long-term

0:09:560:10:00

challenge, it's a challenge right

now. If you listen to NHS bosses,

0:10:000:10:04

they are not just talking about a

winter crisis, and we have had these

0:10:040:10:11

crises year-on-year, they are

talking about a service that is no

0:10:110:10:13

longer going to be able to keep

standards safe for patients. A

0:10:130:10:16

watershed moment, Chris Hopson

actually said. I will ask you again,

0:10:160:10:20

we have known about the challenges

of an ageing population, is it

0:10:200:10:23

acceptable that the NHS is

struggling?

And spending continues

0:10:230:10:27

to increase. The core that you are

highlighting here this morning are

0:10:270:10:32

absolutely right -- because you are

highlighting. People are looking for

0:10:320:10:36

a more sustainable way of dealing

with this. I am sympathetic to the

0:10:360:10:39

call that was made for a Royal

commission to be established into

0:10:390:10:43

the future funding of the NHS. It is

a hugely important thing for us to

0:10:430:10:48

get right for everybody in this

country.

Right, at the top Oxford

0:10:480:10:52

Cancer Hospital saying they will

have to delay or cut life prolonging

0:10:520:10:59

treatment due to a shortage of

nurses. Is that acceptable?

These

0:10:590:11:02

are things that have to be

addressed. The NHS is recruiting

0:11:020:11:06

more doctors and nurses, we have

more than we have ever had.

But not

0:11:060:11:11

enough to deal with the increase in

demand and the number of elderly

0:11:110:11:14

patients, which we have known about.

That is about the challenges for the

0:11:140:11:19

health service, and also the

challenge in social care, making

0:11:190:11:22

sure that we omit the two things

together, something that my area of

0:11:220:11:26

Greater Manchester is at the

forefront, making sure that health

0:11:260:11:30

and social care are part of the same

picture, something which has been

0:11:300:11:35

established more firmly in the

reshuffle with the Department being

0:11:350:11:37

renamed with responsibility for

social care.

Let's look at the

0:11:370:11:41

solutions. Justin, what is Labour's

solution when it comes to funding

0:11:410:11:45

year on year?

We have been very

clear, we are hearing today quite a

0:11:450:11:49

lot of the people involved in the

NHS coming round to our way of

0:11:490:11:53

thinking, including some

Conservative MPs, it is about the

0:11:530:11:56

funding, at the core of it, and we

pledged at the last election that we

0:11:560:12:00

would put an extra £6 billion per

year in.

When would that start? I

0:12:000:12:08

have your manifesto here, actually

it says £5 billion for health care

0:12:080:12:10

being put into the budget. When?

Obviously we would have to get a

0:12:100:12:14

budget passed...

But in your plan,

when would that £5 billion be spent?

0:12:140:12:22

Well, it would be from the first

year of a Labour government. It is

0:12:220:12:25

about actually the long-term funding

squeeze that we have seen over the

0:12:250:12:30

last eight years, which has seen an

increase in funding by about 1%,

0:12:300:12:36

demand has gone up by about 4% per

year. We want to get it back to that

0:12:360:12:41

kind of love and stabilise the

situation.

£5 billion extra per year

0:12:410:12:45

-- that kind of level. It would have

been now if you had won that

0:12:450:12:49

election. The Conservatives have

said that they would increase it by

0:12:490:12:53

a minimum of £8 billion by 2021-22.

Do you accept that both parties are

0:12:530:12:58

quite close in terms of the extra

funding that is being committed?

No,

0:12:580:13:07

I don't. Because we would have

already be putting measures in place

0:13:070:13:10

now. What we are seeing at the

moment, obviously the December the

0:13:100:13:12

districts of the worst on record,

this is before that we got to the

0:13:120:13:15

appalling stories we have heard in

the last couple of weeks -- the

0:13:150:13:17

December that sticks. We need to

stabilise the situation now. Are

0:13:170:13:20

leaving in droves because they are

one down by the pressures they are

0:13:200:13:26

facing. We need to give them

confidence that there is a future

0:13:260:13:29

and hope for the NHS.

£5 billion

would have been putting immediately

0:13:290:13:33

by Labour. What other measures?

We

would have increased the social care

0:13:330:13:38

budgets, this £5 billion would have

been every single year.

You would

0:13:380:13:42

have increased it every year by

2021-22 by 5 billion pounds.

An

0:13:420:13:47

extra 5 billion every year, not on

top of that.

0:13:470:13:56

top of that.

Just to be clear. The

Tories committed £8 billion per

0:13:560:13:58

year, but not until 2021-22, and

that is the difference. You wouldn't

0:13:580:14:00

be doing anything and do not doing

anything right now.

There is more

0:14:000:14:03

money going in now, there will be

more money going in next year and

0:14:030:14:06

the year after, and there will be an

extra £8 billion by 2021.

Do you

0:14:060:14:11

think there should be over and above

what has been committed to deal with

0:14:110:14:16

this particular crisis.

I think we

should do what is necessary to deal

0:14:160:14:20

with this particular situation. It

is not for me to manage the National

0:14:200:14:24

Health Service, we need to manage

this situation. More money was

0:14:240:14:28

announced in the budget, there is a

response. The problem, Justin and I

0:14:280:14:32

can sit here talking about £8

billion or £5 billion whether it is

0:14:320:14:36

this year or next year, it is a much

more fundamental question, whether

0:14:360:14:41

there is a more stable way of

funding by NHS in the long term. I

0:14:410:14:45

think the public understand that.

Let's look at the sustainable

0:14:450:14:49

funding. Nick Bowles, your

colleague, has suggested it is time

0:14:490:14:52

for a high poverty to NHS tax that

goes directly into the health

0:14:520:14:56

service to page four health care in

England, do you agree with that?

--

0:14:560:15:02

hypothecated. I thought it was an

interesting proposition, it was

0:15:020:15:08

misnamed the international insurance

fund and making a National health

0:15:080:15:11

fun, I thought it was an interesting

idea and I would be interested to

0:15:110:15:14

look at it.

You might support the

idea going forward?

I might well.

0:15:140:15:19

Taxes might go up.

I think Nick's

point was that you might find years

0:15:190:15:24

where there is a surplus in the fund

and the fund can build that up,

0:15:240:15:27

there might be years when there was

more revenue to spend on somewhere

0:15:270:15:31

there might be less. It would make

it a predictable pop that the NHS

0:15:310:15:35

could rely on. And we could all see

where that money was coming from and

0:15:350:15:39

where it was going to.

Do you

support the idea of a hypothecated

0:15:390:15:43

tax for health care?

0:15:430:15:48

I am more concerned we get the money

in the system. We would reverse

0:15:490:15:55

corporation tax cuts, we would use

money to pay for extra funding.

0:15:550:16:01

That is the issue. You say it

doesn't matter what it is called but

0:16:010:16:05

the complaint is even if you

increase taxation, if the public

0:16:050:16:09

knows that extra money is definitely

going to health care, they will feel

0:16:090:16:15

reassured that paying it.

That is what we did, you can see the

0:16:150:16:20

results, greater satisfaction levels

by the time we left office.

0:16:200:16:26

If it wasn't hypothecated in quite

the same way. Do you support an idea

0:16:260:16:33

of a hypothecated tax as a long-term

solution?

0:16:330:16:38

The main point is we have to

increase spending on the NHS and the

0:16:380:16:43

only way is through increasing

taxation.

0:16:430:16:45

That is our position. To get all

your money from higher taxpayers and

0:16:450:16:51

corporations?

That is what we set out in our

0:16:510:16:56

manifesto. There are a number of

reasons why we wanted to have those

0:16:560:17:01

particular groups paying a little

more. That is a reasonable position.

0:17:010:17:07

What is wrong with that? You tax

higher earners too much and

0:17:070:17:12

companies, you get less revenue and

not more, that has been seen.

0:17:120:17:16

If we were to have the tragedy of a

Labour Government, the effect would

0:17:160:17:22

be less money available for the NHS.

This is the line trotted out every

0:17:220:17:28

time. It suggests we're not doing

enough to crack down on tax

0:17:280:17:32

avoidance which is a big issue in

itself.

0:17:320:17:35

That is the line trotted out by

governments in terms of tax

0:17:350:17:40

avoidance. So long-term funding of

the NHS, would you like to see

0:17:400:17:43

spending on health care go up as a

proportion of GDP, what proportion?

0:17:430:17:47

Up to the average of similar

countries such as Germany.

0:17:470:17:53

About 9.9%.

It is closer to 11% in

Germany.

0:17:530:18:00

That is an ideal. We need to

stabilise the situation and deal

0:18:000:18:04

with the demand we have got.

Looking ahead, you would be

0:18:040:18:09

committed to Labour increasing the

percentage of health care spending

0:18:090:18:12

up to 11%?

I have not made that commitment, we

0:18:120:18:17

have to look long-term at demands.

That is a comparison with another

0:18:170:18:24

country. We have to look at this

country over 20 years and plan

0:18:240:18:29

accordingly. That is what this

Government should have done.

0:18:290:18:33

Some Tories are proposing that now.

When we have looked at the figures

0:18:330:18:38

of 5 billion extra spending, the

Labour proposals are relatively

0:18:380:18:42

hardest.

What I am saying is what a lot of

0:18:420:18:50

people are suggesting. There is

nothing unusual about saying we have

0:18:500:18:53

to predict in the longer term what

demands will be on the health

0:18:530:18:56

service.

Should we increase our health care

0:18:560:19:00

spending as a proportion of GDP?

We are at the European average. We

0:19:000:19:08

should do what is appropriate to get

the best NHS we all depend on. It is

0:19:080:19:15

inevitable in the future we will be

spending a bigger percentage of GDP

0:19:150:19:19

on health, as the population

continues to age, more expensive new

0:19:190:19:25

treatments.

We all depend on it. Thank you.

0:19:250:19:31

And if you want to find out how your

local hospital is performing,

0:19:310:19:34

you can use the BBC's NHS

Tracker at bbc.co.uk/nhstracker.

0:19:340:19:40

Now, here's a question that might be

of interest to our guest of the day.

0:19:400:19:44

How big is the Conservative Party?

0:19:440:19:48

The answer, no-one seems to know!

0:19:480:19:50

It's been five years

since the party has said how many

0:19:500:19:52

paid members it's got.

0:19:520:19:53

But estimates suggest the total may

have fallen since then,

0:19:530:19:56

and is now around or below 100,000.

0:19:560:19:57

So, what is the party's future?

0:19:570:19:59

Does it matter?

0:19:590:20:00

Our Ellie has been finding out

what members themselves think.

0:20:000:20:04

Can you believe it's six months

since the general election?

0:20:040:20:08

Well, even the party that won it

have had to spend time

0:20:080:20:11

licking their wounds,

drowning their sorrows,

0:20:110:20:12

working out what went wrong.

0:20:120:20:15

So, what might the Tories do

differently if and when there

0:20:150:20:18

is another general election?

0:20:180:20:19

Thank you.

0:20:190:20:20

Happily, I've got some

people here to find out.

0:20:200:20:22

Hello, chaps.

0:20:220:20:24

Right, whose is the orange juice?

0:20:240:20:27

Ben Howlett lost his

seat in Bath in June.

0:20:270:20:30

31 now, he was one of

the Tories' youngest MPs.

0:20:300:20:33

He's brought some of his

Conservative chums,

0:20:330:20:35

all members, to have a chat.

0:20:350:20:38

OK, so, Ben, why did

you lose your seat?

0:20:380:20:41

I think the main reason

why I lost the seat

0:20:410:20:43

was because of the Brexit vote.

0:20:430:20:46

It was 70% Remain in

the constituency, so putting out

0:20:460:20:50

a message of strengthening our hand

in the negotiations

0:20:500:20:52

of the Prime Minister went

well in the beginning,

0:20:520:20:57

but then social care

changes happened,

0:20:570:20:59

and things fell apart quite

quickly after that.

0:20:590:21:01

The Conservatives do suffer

with this brand issue, don't they?

0:21:010:21:03

They are just not cool.

0:21:030:21:07

I see more young activists around

when we go to party conference,

0:21:070:21:10

in my local area, when I'm attending

regional events in

0:21:100:21:13

London or Yorkshire,

when we go out campaigning.

0:21:130:21:15

I think it's necessarily we're

not shouting about it,

0:21:150:21:18

we're not really concerned

about necessarily promoting

0:21:180:21:20

the brand of youth.

0:21:200:21:25

So, do you think the leadership

listens to the membership?

0:21:250:21:29

Certainly starting out,

I did feel a little bit

0:21:290:21:31

like I was just someone who was just

going to knock on doors.

0:21:310:21:37

Even though that's the bread

and butter of the party campaign

0:21:370:21:43

machine, I felt like that

didn't really matter

0:21:430:21:45

because those were just

0:21:450:21:46

the things you would do.

0:21:460:21:47

You know, even to the point

where sometimes there would be meals

0:21:470:21:50

and things at the local association,

and I wouldn't be invited

0:21:500:21:53

because I haven't apparently

campaigned enough.

0:21:530:21:54

And I thought, well,

actually that's not the way

0:21:540:21:56

to get me to campaign more.

0:21:560:21:58

I think one of the things that MPs

can do in particular,

0:21:580:22:01

though, is to engage

with their members more.

0:22:010:22:03

Because, as an MP, you are stuck

in Westminster four days a week,

0:22:030:22:06

and you don't have that toing

and froing with your members as much

0:22:060:22:09

as you do when you are a candidate.

0:22:090:22:11

If MPs can do more to listen

to their members by thinking

0:22:110:22:14

about some of the new policies,

such as I did in Bath,

0:22:140:22:18

that's a really great way to start

changing the way that we think

0:22:180:22:21

about different issues.

0:22:210:22:23

And you'll probably get a lot more

members in as a result.

0:22:230:22:25

And what do you think, Ben?

0:22:250:22:27

I think there's always more that any

political party can do.

0:22:270:22:30

I find our access to ministers,

our influence on policy doesn't

0:22:300:22:33

always lead to the results we want.

0:22:330:22:36

But I do feel that

we are listened to.

0:22:360:22:40

The new generation are more active,

we have figures such

0:22:400:22:44

as James Cleverly, Brandon Lewis,

the new chairman, and a few other

0:22:440:22:48

MPs who, because they came up

through the grassroots,

0:22:480:22:52

and a lot of them were young

at the time - again,

0:22:520:22:55

Ben Howlett was one of them -

they listen more to the local

0:22:550:22:58

association and members.

0:22:580:22:59

So we actually have more

activities now on a regional

0:22:590:23:01

and local basis than before.

0:23:010:23:03

OK, so you're all painting

quite a positive picture.

0:23:030:23:06

How positive are you about the next

general election, if and when it is?

0:23:060:23:09

I think we're getting there now.

0:23:090:23:11

Policy-wise, I completely

agree with Ben.

0:23:110:23:15

Also not forgetting now Michael Gove

has come in, and really,

0:23:150:23:18

really reformed the way we approach

animal welfare and environmental

0:23:180:23:21

issues, which was always

a bit of a strain for me.

0:23:210:23:25

As someone who is a Tory

member and activist,

0:23:250:23:28

it was always the part of me that

always struggled every

0:23:280:23:30

time we came to vote.

0:23:300:23:32

I'd always vote Conservative,

but there was a bit of a heavy heart

0:23:320:23:35

there because animal welfare

and the environment has also always

0:23:350:23:37

been very important to me.

0:23:370:23:40

We can speak now to Professor Tim

Bale who has recently published

0:23:400:23:43

research into the state

of the Britain's political parties.

0:23:430:23:47

Welcome to the Daily Politics. What

is the relative health of the

0:23:470:23:52

Conservative Party compared to other

parties?

0:23:520:23:54

It is not growing as others, Labour

has undergone a phenomenal growth

0:23:540:23:58

since Jeremy Corbyn took over, the

Conservatives have probably shrunk,

0:23:580:24:04

some reports say they are down to

70,000, smaller than the Lib Dems

0:24:040:24:09

and the SNP. I'll wouldn't put them

above 100,000, it has been notably

0:24:090:24:16

reluctant to release membership

figures for the past three years

0:24:160:24:20

indicating they are in trouble.

They have been reluctant. How

0:24:200:24:26

important is a healthy grassroots to

winning elections?

0:24:260:24:30

The evidence suggests in a close

race in a constituency the effort on

0:24:300:24:34

the ground parties can make makes a

difference. Talking about

0:24:340:24:39

canvassing, identifying voters,

talking about delivering leaflets,

0:24:390:24:44

and increasingly elections are being

fought on line where the

0:24:440:24:50

Conservatives have a particular

problem because of the age structure

0:24:500:24:54

of the party, members just don't

seem to do anywhere near as much on

0:24:540:24:59

Facebook or Twitter social media

than members of other parties.

0:24:590:25:06

Social media is critically important

in future elections. How reflective

0:25:060:25:11

of the attitudes of Tory members of

voters and the voters they need to

0:25:110:25:17

gain to win?

It is important to separate those

0:25:170:25:20

groups. Party members are not that

far away from people who are core

0:25:200:25:25

Conservative Party voters. Where

they are quite far away from is the

0:25:250:25:29

sort of voter they need to pick up

at the next election and elections

0:25:290:25:33

to come. Look at attitudes and they

are pretty authoritarian, not very

0:25:330:25:41

liberal, pretty traditional. As

Britain becomes more socially

0:25:410:25:45

liberal in part because so many more

are going to university, that could

0:25:450:25:49

be a problem.

Do Conservative members have less

0:25:490:25:53

say in the direction of their

parties and other parties

0:25:530:25:58

particularly now?

Absolutely. The only bright is that

0:25:580:26:01

being a party member gives you is

the right to select Parliamentary

0:26:010:26:05

candidates in your Krsticic are sick

and occasionally if there is a

0:26:050:26:09

leadership contest. You have no say

formally in terms of policy, which

0:26:090:26:14

is not the case for the Labour Party

and the Lib Dems and SNP and Green

0:26:140:26:21

Party, members that have a

significant say. That is something

0:26:210:26:25

to do with the fact that

Conservative Party members feel less

0:26:250:26:29

appreciated by their leadership.

Graham, how many members does the

0:26:290:26:37

Conservative Party have?

I do not know.

0:26:370:26:40

You do not want to know. I would be

very happy to know. The fact is we

0:26:400:26:47

don't have a central membership

register so it is difficult to have

0:26:470:26:51

an accurate figure. At the time of

the leadership election, it was

0:26:510:26:56

something around I think 100,000,

120,000, not nearly as high as it

0:26:560:27:03

should be. There was an interesting

question when you said is a healthy

0:27:030:27:10

grassroots important? I think it is

but the converse is an unhealthy

0:27:100:27:15

grassroots can be quite damaging as

well. One concern looking at the

0:27:150:27:19

Labour Party and the big growth in

the momentum membership, this block

0:27:190:27:24

of hard left wing people who make it

very difficult...

0:27:240:27:28

But we're not talking about...

Except they did much better than was

0:27:280:27:36

expected and got an enormously high

share of the vote, admittedly. If

0:27:360:27:38

you don't think the health of the

grassroots matters, let the figures

0:27:380:27:44

have dropped below 100,000, is it a

worry?

0:27:440:27:48

I want to see much stronger party

membership, being more open to the

0:27:480:27:54

membership, the party conference

being more of a genuine debate and

0:27:540:27:58

about broadcasts. Yes, I am keen on

expending -- expanding the

0:27:580:28:08

membership.

And giving them more power?

0:28:080:28:10

Certainly more of a voice, parties

must listen to their members.

0:28:100:28:17

Except Tim Bell says they don't

really reflect Tory voters.

0:28:170:28:22

He said they would rather reflect

Tory voters by the well. He said we

0:28:220:28:28

possibly need to look differently at

some of those we need to reach out

0:28:280:28:31

to. It depends where you are. My own

membership is pretty strong, the

0:28:310:28:37

same figure it has been for a number

of years.

0:28:370:28:40

I would love to see that double.

Do

you think beefing up of Conservative

0:28:400:28:45

headquarters in the recent

reshuffle, the appointment of 13

0:28:450:28:51

vice chairs, will that make a

difference?

0:28:510:28:53

I am less concerned about the number

and more about the quality. We have

0:28:530:28:58

some fantastic people involved

driving some of this process.

0:28:580:29:04

Brandon Lewis, I have a lot of faith

in him, James Clay is the deputy

0:29:040:29:08

picked out in the piece you have

just shown. So, we have a lot of

0:29:080:29:17

real quality coming in.

With a lot of enthusiasm. Would a

0:29:170:29:24

better operation at CC HQ made a

difference last year?

0:29:240:29:29

I think pretty much everything did

go wrong, part of that was not just

0:29:290:29:34

the period of the election, it was a

period where there was lack of

0:29:340:29:40

preparation in advance. No election

was anticipated, the point about

0:29:400:29:44

social media and communicating

widely, that had been allowed to

0:29:440:29:50

atrophy and now there is a

0:29:500:29:56

What about the reshuffle in general?

Could it have been more radical?

It

0:29:570:30:01

could have been more radical, I was

reflecting on what word I would

0:30:010:30:06

settle on for that.

What is it?

Oversold is probably the word. If

0:30:060:30:12

this reshuffle had just happened and

people were looking at it by its own

0:30:120:30:16

merits, people would say it was a

pretty reasonable reshuffle, with

0:30:160:30:20

some very good, strong moves, some

new people coming into Government,

0:30:200:30:25

some sensible changes. David

Lidington replacing the come

0:30:250:30:28

ordination role that

0:30:280:30:37

ordination role that Damian Green

was doing before that, for instance.

0:30:380:30:39

-- become ordination role. It might

not have been what the Prime

0:30:390:30:42

Minister had in mind, but my

highlight of the reshuffle was

0:30:420:30:44

Jeremy Hunt, so determined to remain

at the helm of the National Health

0:30:440:30:46

Service.

Did that demonstrate her

weakness?

It demonstrates something

0:30:460:30:49

really important, which is that

Jeremy has been so committed to the

0:30:490:30:53

NHS and getting it right and really

cares about that. And his

0:30:530:30:57

determination to stand by it.

What

does it say about the Prime

0:30:570:31:00

Minister, who wanted to move him?

That she was per say so but prepared

0:31:000:31:04

to be persuaded by him and she got

that right.

Are you pleased that the

0:31:040:31:10

woman who stood in the way of

grammar school expansion has gone?

I

0:31:100:31:14

like Justine Greening, she is a

friend and a colleague. I'm not

0:31:140:31:18

pleased when any of my colleagues

find themselves out of office when

0:31:180:31:22

they wanted to be in office. I am

also pleased to see Damian Hinds in

0:31:220:31:27

that job. He is a grammar school boy

from altering.

Are you hoping that

0:31:270:31:32

policy will be reversed? And there

will be further expansion?

I'm

0:31:320:31:37

hoping to see some steady progress

being made on the question of giving

0:31:370:31:42

parents more choice in schools, that

should include the ability to choose

0:31:420:31:46

selective schools where they want

to.

Nick Timothy, former adviser to

0:31:460:31:51

Theresa May who went soon after the

election, but it was right for

0:31:510:31:55

Justine Greening to go because she

apparently blocked tuition fee cuts.

0:31:550:31:59

Would that be right in terms of

getting rid of somebody who was

0:31:590:32:02

blocking reform?

I have no idea

whether that was the case, I don't

0:32:020:32:07

know what discussions have happened

within Government and tuition fees.

0:32:070:32:12

Right, this article in the Telegraph

today suggests that Nick Timothy

0:32:120:32:16

still speaks to the Prime Minister

and he was, along with Fiona Hill,

0:32:160:32:20

blamed in some part for that

election campaign. Is it appropriate

0:32:200:32:24

that the Prime Minister is such

close conversation with her former

0:32:240:32:29

advisers?

She can talk to as many

friends and advisers as she wishes,

0:32:290:32:34

the more people she talks to the

better.

Are you disappointed that

0:32:340:32:38

there will not be a Minister for no

deal attending Cabinet?

That is not

0:32:380:32:44

necessary, we have seen a

strengthening of the department, and

0:32:440:32:47

other Minister, a very capable and

strong new member coming in to the

0:32:470:32:53

Government Luella Fernandes. She

will be a real asset.

Would you have

0:32:530:32:56

liked to have seen somebody

representing that particular option,

0:32:560:32:59

it was felt that it would be

explored more fully by Brexiteers.

0:32:590:33:05

I'm not keen on ministers having a

particular policy agenda, they are

0:33:050:33:09

responsible for delivering the

Goverment's policy, which is strong

0:33:090:33:13

and clear, we are making significant

progress towards it. There result of

0:33:130:33:17

optimism that we will move forward

with face two in a more constructive

0:33:170:33:21

weight with our new partners.

Michael Gove has told Conservative

0:33:210:33:25

home that he fancies Damian Hinds,

the new Education Secretary, and

0:33:250:33:29

Gavin Williamson, the Defence

Secretary, for next Tory leader.

0:33:290:33:42

Do you agree with him?

I am chairman

of the 1922 Committee, I would be

0:33:420:33:45

returning officer in any contest

that might happen, I could not

0:33:450:33:48

express a preference. They are both

very good people. Looking at the

0:33:480:33:50

reshuffle and some of the new

members of the Government, I think

0:33:500:33:52

we are in a very strong position for

the future. We have got so much

0:33:520:33:55

talent on the Conservative benches

in the House of Commons, that is a

0:33:550:33:58

really positive sign for the future

of the Conservative Party and the

0:33:580:34:00

country.

What about the talent at

the top? Last time you in this

0:34:000:34:05

studio you said that Theresa May was

safe in post at the moment, is that

0:34:050:34:09

still your view?

I probably said at

the time, that is all that any Prime

0:34:090:34:14

Minister or leader of anybody is at

any time.

Do you see her fighting

0:34:140:34:19

the next election as leader of the

Conservative Party?

My position

0:34:190:34:23

remains the same, it is the view of

my colleagues that we do not want to

0:34:230:34:27

see a leadership election, we are

making good progress, whilst lots of

0:34:270:34:31

people may say at the moment Theresa

May may not lead the Conservative

0:34:310:34:35

Party through the next general

election, that isn't a judgment that

0:34:350:34:38

is going to be taken today, it will

be taking in two or three years'

0:34:380:34:43

time, the whole landscape might be

different then as we are merging

0:34:430:34:47

from the negotiations and the

agreements on Brexit.

By March 2019,

0:34:470:34:53

there could be a leadership contest?

Of course there could be. My view

0:34:530:34:58

that a successful exit from the

European Union, Britain continuing

0:34:580:35:01

to see strong economic growth, low

unemployment, record levels of

0:35:010:35:05

innovative investment as we are

seeing at the moment, it is likely

0:35:050:35:08

people will look at the Prime

Minister and say, she has done a

0:35:080:35:11

pretty good job.

What about Michael

Gove's prospects, could he be a

0:35:110:35:16

future leader of the Conservative

Party?

I'm not going to, it on that,

0:35:160:35:22

but he is doing a brilliant job at

Defra and I'm very pleased to see

0:35:220:35:26

the measures taken to get rid of my

group -- micro beads and what he is

0:35:260:35:32

doing about plastic.

Thank you.

0:35:320:35:34

The former Lib Dem leader

and committed Christian Tim Farron

0:35:340:35:37

has said he regrets saying that gay

sex was not a sin during last

0:35:370:35:40

year's general election.

0:35:400:35:41

He told Christian Radio

he was "foolish" to allow himself

0:35:410:35:43

to be pressured in saying something

which he didn't believe was right.

0:35:430:35:46

During the 2017 general election

campaign, when he was Lib Dem

0:35:460:35:50

leader, Tim Farron was asked

repeatedly about his religious

0:35:500:35:53

beliefs, and, specifically, about

whether he believed gay sex was a

0:35:530:35:57

Saint.

Do you think that having --

that having a gay sex was a sin.

I'm

0:35:570:36:04

not going to give you an answer that

question, and I will tell you why.

0:36:040:36:10

One's personal faith is one's

personal faith. What counts is your

0:36:100:36:14

actions and your beliefs in

politics.

He later said that he

0:36:140:36:17

didn't one people getting the wrong

impression about his views.

I don't

0:36:170:36:23

believe gay sex is a sin. I take the

view as a political leader, my job

0:36:230:36:29

is not to pontificate on the logical

matters.

Tim Farron step out as Lib

0:36:290:36:35

Dem leader straight after the

election, saying in a statement that

0:36:350:36:38

he was torn between living as a

faithful Christian and serving as a

0:36:380:36:42

political leader. In an interview

with Christian radio yesterday, Mr

0:36:420:36:48

Farron said he regretted not being

honest with himself at the time.

0:36:480:36:53

There are things I regret and there

was a sense in which I felt, look,

0:36:530:36:57

I've got to get this off my table,

what an opportunity for us. All that

0:36:570:37:01

they wanted to do was talk about my

Christian beliefs and what it meant

0:37:010:37:05

and all the rest of it. And I would

say, foolishly, and strongly,

0:37:050:37:12

attempted to, you know, push it away

by giving an answer that frankly was

0:37:120:37:17

not right.

Tim Farron.

0:37:170:37:19

Joining me now from

Cambridge is the writer

0:37:190:37:21

and commentator Anne Atkins.

0:37:210:37:22

And the Labour MP and former

Anglian vicar Chris Bryant.

0:37:220:37:26

Welcome to the studio to you, and

welcome to the programme. Shouldn't

0:37:260:37:30

Tim Farron have had the courage of

his convictions at the time and said

0:37:300:37:34

that he thought gay sex was a saint?

I think that's what he said

0:37:340:37:38

yesterday -- thought they sex was a

scene. It is a misleading question

0:37:380:37:45

and an illiberal and homophobic

question, as he pointed out

0:37:450:37:49

yesterday, because Christians

believe that we all seen it, seeing

0:37:490:37:53

is a theological term which is quite

misleading because it communicates

0:37:530:37:57

to people who not quite familiar

with that jargon condemnation and

0:37:570:38:03

judgment and looking down on people,

which is not what it means at all,

0:38:030:38:07

it is defined by St Paul in the

letter the Romans as falling short

0:38:070:38:10

in the glory of God, as Christians,

we believe that we all do that. The

0:38:100:38:14

fact that he was asked about a

particular minority is a very

0:38:140:38:18

misleading thing. If he had come out

and said, yes, I do think it is a

0:38:180:38:22

sin, that would have been more

misleading than what he actually did

0:38:220:38:26

say. What I find so disappointing

was Vince Cable's tweet after Tim

0:38:260:38:31

Farron step down, which was very

illiberal. He distanced himself from

0:38:310:38:39

Tim Farron's views and said the Lib

Dems have a long and proud history

0:38:390:38:44

of supporting LGBT rights. Well, so

does Tim Farron. He has a long and

0:38:440:38:49

proud history of supporting LGBT

rights, which is the important

0:38:490:38:53

thing.

In terms of your expectation

about what is considered a sin, he

0:38:530:38:58

told a lie, straightforwardly.

He

said he wishes he had represented

0:38:580:39:06

his views more truthfully.

For the

viewers, it is just to make it plain

0:39:060:39:11

that he said one thing that he

didn't mean, and now he has

0:39:110:39:15

corrected it. He lied at the time

about a fairly straightforward

0:39:150:39:18

question.

I think lie is an

extremely unfair term. He was caught

0:39:180:39:25

off balance, he said something which

subsequently...

Let me try another

0:39:250:39:30

term with you, he bore false

witness. You know, from the Ten

0:39:300:39:35

Commandments, he lied.

That is the

same thing.

Lying is a sin. If I'm

0:39:350:39:40

honest, I feel awfully sorry for him

because he tied himself up in knots,

0:39:400:39:43

by the end of yesterday I don't know

what he really thinks.

He was very

0:39:430:39:48

clear.

My anxiety is, I think the

Church of England, and a lot of the

0:39:480:39:53

church is conflicted about it as

well, on the one hand they want to

0:39:530:39:56

be supportive and caring towards

LGBT people. And most people I

0:39:560:40:05

LGBT people. And most people I think

now accept that your sexuality is

0:40:050:40:07

not a choice that you have made.

That is very different from 100

0:40:070:40:10

years ago or 200 years ago, when

everybody thought that you chose to

0:40:100:40:12

become a sexual. Today, the vast

majority of Christians would accept

0:40:120:40:14

that it is not a choice. So then the

question is whether churches want to

0:40:140:40:18

support people in loving

relationships or want to deprive

0:40:180:40:20

them and say that they are sin. Like

comeback on that, Anne?

You are

0:40:200:40:27

deliberately confusing two things

and you know that you. 100 years

0:40:270:40:30

ago, people board of the act rather

than the orientation, now people

0:40:300:40:35

think of the orientation.

Both,

actually.

Tim Farron himself has

0:40:350:40:39

made it clear that Christianity does

not condemn sexual orientation, he

0:40:390:40:43

himself has said that. You are being

far more illiberal than Tim Farron

0:40:430:40:48

was and so is Vince Cable, because

you are condemning him for, you

0:40:480:40:52

know, breaking one of the Ten

Commandments, he himself made clear

0:40:520:40:56

yesterday, as all Christians

believe, that we all break the Ten

0:40:560:40:59

Commandments...

Let Chris answer.

Anne, can you let me say something?

0:40:590:41:07

I just wanted to finish my sentence.

It was quite a long paragraph, but

0:41:070:41:13

anyway, I feel sympathetic towards

him because it is perfectly

0:41:130:41:16

legitimate for somebody to hold that

view. I disagree with them. I think

0:41:160:41:20

he would have been better off to

have stated what his view was.

Would

0:41:200:41:25

he? This is the politics of it. He

was hounded during the election

0:41:250:41:29

campaign over it. He was asked

repeatedly, may be fairly, do you

0:41:290:41:33

think it is right that he should be

hounded on this issue?

It is a

0:41:330:41:38

legitimate issue for voters to say,

what are your views on a variety of

0:41:380:41:42

issues, including there is? And how

do you bring your religious belief

0:41:420:41:46

into the policies that you vote for

and don't vote for? My memory, and I

0:41:460:41:51

may be wrong on this, but my memory

is that Tim did not vote for

0:41:510:41:57

same-sex marriage, third reading,

second reading of the bill.

His

0:41:570:42:01

voting record is absolutely... If

they are a Labour colleague of yours

0:42:010:42:06

in the House of Commons, if they

held those same views...

Some do. I

0:42:060:42:11

had a big row with Kelly wants about

this very issue. And in Labour's

0:42:110:42:16

case, we had said that we were

supporting civil partnerships and

0:42:160:42:21

gay adoption, we were supporting

that is part of that manifesto, and

0:42:210:42:24

Ruth Kelly was opposed to it. I said

to her, in conscience, you shouldn't

0:42:240:42:28

be on the front bench of the Labour

Party.

Anne, should Tim Farron have

0:42:280:42:33

sorted out in his mind how he should

deal with this, bearing in mind he

0:42:330:42:36

was the leader of a British

political party of the Liberal

0:42:360:42:40

Democrat party, and would know and

expect there to be questions along

0:42:400:42:43

these lines to test those liberal

policies? We have had the debate

0:42:430:42:47

about what is liberal and illiberal,

but shouldn't he have expected it

0:42:470:42:51

and prepared for it by the Brazil

are a far more democratic and

0:42:510:42:54

liberal question would have been,

what is

your records, not your

0:42:540:42:59

personal views. The point that he

has tried to make but nobody has

0:42:590:43:06

really listen to what he is saying,

is his personal views on this are

0:43:060:43:09

not relevant. What is relevant is

his public voting record. Because

0:43:090:43:12

his liberalism, you see, what is

truly...

I think that views do

0:43:120:43:16

matter.

Let Anne finish.

What is

truly liberal, something that has

0:43:160:43:22

been misattributed but his bill a

fabulous quote, what is truly

0:43:220:43:25

liberal is to disagree with you and

support you anyway. That is Tim

0:43:250:43:29

Farron's record, what his personal

views are...

You are misquoting, is

0:43:290:43:35

quoted for there! To defend the

right...

Before we get into this

0:43:350:43:39

slightly dense argument, is it

possible, as Anne has said, that you

0:43:390:43:44

can have personal views that you

hold there, but actually it doesn't

0:43:440:43:49

affect, necessarily, how you lead a

political party. You can still

0:43:490:43:53

support LGBT rights.

Absolutely. I

think he needed to make that clear.

0:43:530:43:58

Can I make the far bigger point,

which is that, actually, gay young

0:43:580:44:05

men and women commit suicide six

times more frequently than their

0:44:050:44:09

straight counterparts. Every time

somebody adds into this equation a

0:44:090:44:12

little bit more of the kind of

critique and criticism of,

0:44:120:44:15

sexuality, whether it is, sexuality

itself, in aid, sexuality, or

0:44:150:44:20

whether you engage in sexual acts --

whether it is homosexuality. It adds

0:44:200:44:28

that the sense of guilt and shame.

My anxiety for the Church of England

0:44:280:44:32

is, which is my church, in 200

years' time, people will say, you

0:44:320:44:36

got this completely and utterly

wrong, you now have a situation

0:44:360:44:40

where, for clergy, you are allowed

to be gay, you allowed to be in a

0:44:400:44:45

Sybil partnership as long as you

swear to god that it is celibate.

0:44:450:44:49

This is a nonsense they have got

themselves tied up in knots in.

What

0:44:490:44:52

about the case of the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg? He is clear

0:44:520:44:57

about his views on gay marriage and

abortion, he thinks that same-sex

0:44:570:45:01

marriage is wrong. He tells it as it

is, that is the better way to be, is

0:45:010:45:05

it?

I think you should be honest and

straightforward, yes. I think that

0:45:050:45:10

voters actually respect people's

courage. And if you are prepared to

0:45:100:45:14

say, look, I personally think that

homosexuality is wrong or however

0:45:140:45:18

you want to frighten it, but I also

believe that the law should treat

0:45:180:45:22

everybody equally -- however you

want to frame it.

These people can't

0:45:220:45:26

hold high office, is that what you

are saying?

Well, I wouldn't vote

0:45:260:45:30

for them.

But can they not hold high

office?

I am not hounding anybody

0:45:300:45:34

out of office, I am being very

liberal. Anne can stand for election

0:45:340:45:42

but I'm not going to vote for her!

That's fine, I'm quite happy without

0:45:420:45:45

your vote, thank you very much.

There I say it, I think you are

0:45:450:45:51

contradicting yourself. I totally

agree with you that of course we

0:45:510:45:54

must support, you know, we must all

fight for people who feel suicidal

0:45:540:45:58

and who feel criticised and got at,

which is why I think it is the

0:45:580:46:02

question is self that is illiberal

and homophobic. I think the person

0:46:020:46:06

who has dealt with it most widely so

wisely is Justin Welby, he said he

0:46:060:46:11

is not going to answer it. And quite

fried, because if you answer it,

0:46:110:46:15

that contributes to young people

feeling judged -- quite right. What

0:46:150:46:19

is really important is that, to come

back to Tim Farron, his liberalism

0:46:190:46:25

is, he is saying, is much more

important in his political career,

0:46:250:46:29

and that is what he votes for, than

his personal view about certain

0:46:290:46:34

things where he may disagree.

0:46:340:46:40

Should he have been cleared the

first time he was asked and stood by

0:46:400:46:44

his personal view?

I think he should have done. He was

0:46:440:46:49

hounded at the election but because

people thought he was hiding

0:46:490:46:52

something.

He should not have too. Is it a fair

0:46:520:46:56

question to ask, do you think gay

sex is a sin?

0:46:560:47:01

It is a fair question. My answer to

it is, no, I don't.

0:47:010:47:08

Can politicians speak freely about

their faith?

0:47:080:47:11

This is the underlying thing that

concerns me.

There is a far more

0:47:110:47:17

intolerant attitude in Britain than

there used to be. People are often

0:47:170:47:25

intolerant of faith, religion,

political views sometimes. We should

0:47:250:47:27

be more open to listening.

I sympathise with that but if you

0:47:270:47:33

were a young person in his

constituency and went to his surgery

0:47:330:47:36

and you were gay and wanted to talk

about the problems you were having,

0:47:360:47:41

you might worry if you thought he

was going to say, sexuality is a

0:47:410:47:46

sin.

We will have two stop it here. We

0:47:460:47:49

did ask Tim Farron to come in for an

interview, but he turned us down.

0:47:490:47:54

Delighted that you came here

instead.

0:47:540:47:57

Now, the Government has a target

to bring net migration,

0:47:570:48:00

that's the difference

between the number of people coming

0:48:000:48:02

into the the UK and those leaving,

to less than 100.000.

0:48:020:48:05

It currently stands at 230,000.

0:48:050:48:06

But should students be

included in those figures?

0:48:060:48:08

Currently, they are,

but there's a debate

0:48:080:48:10

about whether they should be.

0:48:100:48:11

Let's speak to Nick Hillman of the

Higher Education Policy Institute.

0:48:110:48:17

Welcome to the programme, can you

explain what you found and how you

0:48:170:48:20

calculated it?

We've did a detailed survey of the

0:48:200:48:25

benefits to the whole UK of having

international students here, all the

0:48:250:48:30

rent they paid, the food they buy,

and we have calculated the costs,

0:48:300:48:37

and we found even after you have

taken away the costs, the UK

0:48:370:48:43

benefits to the tune of £20 billion

a year from the presence of so many

0:48:430:48:50

international students in the UK.

What do you say, should it now be

0:48:500:48:54

the case students are excluded from

the net migration figures?

0:48:540:48:58

There was a real problem if you

years ago, with bogus colleges, used

0:48:580:49:03

as a means of getting into the

country. The Government rightly

0:49:030:49:08

tackle that. It is also the case

foreign students in the UK is a huge

0:49:080:49:13

export success for Britain,

universities do a brilliant job

0:49:130:49:17

bringing money in. And we forge very

good friendships with people who go

0:49:170:49:23

back to their own countries, become

great successes in business. A good

0:49:230:49:29

for the country as long as they are

genuine degrees.

0:49:290:49:33

Should they be taken out other

figures?

0:49:330:49:35

I discussed this with a former

Immigration Minister and his answer

0:49:350:49:41

is the problem lies with the

statistical authorities which insist

0:49:410:49:47

on categorising this as part of

migration. The difficulty for the

0:49:470:49:51

Government is to try to change that

and present figures in a different

0:49:510:49:56

way makes them look very shifty. The

important thing is we are not

0:49:560:50:03

stopping people coming here to

study.

0:50:030:50:07

Is that really the justification

because the ONS tells the Government

0:50:070:50:12

it can't?

I welcome what Graham says about the

0:50:120:50:15

positive grudge which they make. But

I don't agree. What they do in other

0:50:150:50:21

countries is the count all the

people coming in including students

0:50:210:50:25

but setting migration targets, they

exclude them from the statistics for

0:50:250:50:30

that purpose, that is a Government

decision and target.

0:50:300:50:34

Mike understanding is it is a

Government decision.

0:50:340:50:41

-- My understanding. The Government

is doing nothing to discourage

0:50:410:50:46

people from coming to study in the

UK.

0:50:460:50:49

It sounds like you would favour if

the Government were to decide to

0:50:490:50:54

exclude those students from the

figures, would you support it?

0:50:540:50:57

I would be concerned if it would

result in universities and told not

0:50:570:51:04

to recruit qualified students from

studying in the UK.

0:51:040:51:09

Briefly, isn't the point anyone

coming in and going out should be

0:51:090:51:15

part of immigration statistics?

Absolutely. But not in the target. I

0:51:150:51:19

hope Graham will look at the Indian

press saying Britain is the least

0:51:190:51:25

welcoming country in the world for

international students. Yet we have

0:51:250:51:29

the best universities.

0:51:290:51:33

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:51:330:51:36

The question was, what wasn't

in the hamper presented

0:51:360:51:38

by a pro-Brexit delegation

to Michel Barnier yesterday

0:51:380:51:40

to advertise British business?

0:51:400:51:45

Was it a) Cheddar cheese?

0:51:450:51:47

b) PG Tips?

0:51:470:51:49

c) Eccles cakes?

0:51:490:51:51

Or d) Marmite?

0:51:510:51:53

So, Graham, what's

the correct answer?

0:51:530:52:00

As a Lancastrian by birth, there

should be Eccles cakes but I wonder

0:52:000:52:07

if it is Marmite? I had a terrible

feeling maybe it is being made

0:52:070:52:12

somewhere else?

You were on the right track.

0:52:120:52:14

Eccles cakes is the answer.

0:52:140:52:22

Michel Barnier got an array of

British products.

0:52:230:52:27

Let's take a look at

the delivery yesterday.

0:52:270:52:29

PG Tips from Manchester, obviously,

you can't ignore that.

0:52:290:52:32

We have got some gin from Scotland,

by the way, that could of course be

0:52:320:52:35

Scotch whisky in terms of how

British it is.

0:52:350:52:38

We've got some wine from England.

0:52:380:52:40

We have got some Marmite,

I'm a huge Marmite fan.

0:52:400:52:42

That's Burton on Trent's best.

0:52:420:52:46

Fantastic English cheeses which I am

sure they will appreciate

0:52:460:52:48

because we have got a huge

market in cheese.

0:52:480:52:52

We are trying to show once

we leave the European Union,

0:52:520:52:54

you will have some great products

that will be able to be sold

0:52:540:52:57

still in Europe but we will expand.

0:52:570:53:05

Lucky old Michel Barnier.

0:53:080:53:10

Well, Steven Woolfe joins

us now from Brussels.

0:53:100:53:13

And here in the studio

is the commentator

0:53:130:53:15

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

0:53:150:53:21

Welcome. What made you choose those

particular products, many of which

0:53:210:53:25

we have in our hamper here.

What we had known from Michel

0:53:250:53:34

Barnier come he was a huge fan of

Shakespeare and uses quotes from

0:53:340:53:39

Winston Churchill. From my

perspective as a Mancunian, I grew

0:53:390:53:44

up with PG tips from my grandmother.

And also because it is Unilever, it

0:53:440:53:50

shows a positive way we can trade

with an Anglo European business to

0:53:500:53:56

show we would be friendly and

working with them in the future. The

0:53:560:54:00

idea of having modern products like

gin is to show the expansion of our

0:54:000:54:05

ideas in new areas. Michel Barnier

love them, he enjoyed them. I think

0:54:050:54:12

his team will enjoy it over the next

few weeks.

0:54:120:54:15

What is your problem with these

gifts?

0:54:150:54:19

I have no problem. British values,

Shakespeare, he was absolutely

0:54:190:54:26

European. There would be no

Shakespeare, Corona, Papua, Rome,

0:54:260:54:31

Greek stories. Let us talk about

Eccles cakes, sultanas imported. The

0:54:310:54:38

great thing about Britain is it has

always been open, perceptive,

0:54:380:54:45

curious. That is the great strength

of this country. I fear at the

0:54:450:54:50

moment we are retreating into a

greyness which isn't British at all.

0:54:500:54:55

What do you say, that this was

something of a cheap stunt to win

0:54:550:55:00

over Michel Barnier which it

probably won't do however generous

0:55:000:55:02

you were.

Of course it wasn't a cheap stunt

0:55:020:55:09

and his team did not accepted as

that. What he did accept was this

0:55:090:55:14

was an offer of friendship to open

up a negotiation and discussion with

0:55:140:55:19

him in an open away, and friendly

way, that is exactly what he

0:55:190:55:26

accepted. Anyone who understands

European politics and how you talk

0:55:260:55:29

to politicians here understand you

have to give them that level of

0:55:290:55:34

respect to have proper discussions.

We did discuss what would happen in

0:55:340:55:39

negotiations. We talked about the

way we wanted a positive free trade

0:55:390:55:44

arrangement. But to remember you

have to comply with the will of

0:55:440:55:49

those who voted in the referendum to

leave, and he accepted that, very

0:55:490:55:55

clearly, that there will be Brexit

in March 2019, and he is working

0:55:550:55:59

towards that.

Even the EU negotiating team are

0:55:590:56:04

working in some parts towards the

possibility of a no deal.

0:56:040:56:08

Absolutely. They are civilised

people. This is embarrassing to turn

0:56:080:56:13

up, there are messages here. Why

would -- How would we feel if they

0:56:130:56:21

turned up with pasta and pesto

because they want us to talk to them

0:56:210:56:24

nicely? It is a stunt.

0:56:240:56:31

nicely? It is a stunt. It makes it

foolish. Show some respect,

0:56:310:56:33

actually. I do agree that

negotiations need to be civilised

0:56:330:56:41

and respectful. This was a stunt and

it was making something of Britain

0:56:410:56:46

which Britain isn't. I am quite

embarrassed you did this.

0:56:460:56:50

But do you think it will help in

terms of avoiding the negotiations?

0:56:500:56:55

No, what will help, and I hope it

happens, is when both sides are

0:56:550:57:01

civilised and realise... Listen, for

centuries, blood has flown between

0:57:010:57:07

us and them, and we are much more

united than we seem to be thinking.

0:57:070:57:13

That will help. One thing pointed

out is some other products you

0:57:130:57:19

included are made by firms who are

worried they will be hit hard by EU

0:57:190:57:24

withdrawal, Marmite and PG tips made

by Unilever, the Anglo Dutch

0:57:240:57:29

company, warning they might have to

consolidate their headquarters away

0:57:290:57:33

from here. Was that a gaffe?

Of course not. You see in many

0:57:330:57:43

international meetings, from heads

of states, the Queen, guests are

0:57:430:57:48

handed over. That is how we

approached this. Not as a stunt but

0:57:480:57:53

as an open hand of friendship to

Michel Barnier. He was meeting for

0:57:530:57:58

the first time a group of important

and well spoken leaders, to express

0:57:580:58:06

a view across the spectrum from the

Labour Party, conservatives and

0:58:060:58:11

those in the centre, with Lord Digby

Jones, that we have strong support

0:58:110:58:16

to continue Brexit and despite those

who had turned up and seen him like

0:58:160:58:20

Nick Clegg and Andrew Adonis, there

will be no turning back on Brexit.

0:58:200:58:24

He was clear, he accepted that.

We seem to have lost him.

0:58:240:58:34

Philip Hammond is to tell German

business leaders in Berlin the EU

0:58:340:58:39

needs to clarify the post Brexit

relations it wants. Has the UK would

0:58:390:58:44

further than the EU?

I thought before Christmas when we

0:58:440:58:48

got the agreement on phase one, it

marked a sea change, it seemed much

0:58:480:58:53

more constructive from the EU 27.

That this is something that is

0:58:530:59:02

happening.

Has the UK moved too far?

No, we're

0:59:020:59:06

making good progress and I hope to

see constructive engagement from the

0:59:060:59:10

EU continuing.

We will stick this good afterwards!

0:59:100:59:16

Bag you for joining us from

Brussels, and here in the studio.

0:59:160:59:20

That's all for today.

0:59:200:59:21

Thanks to our guests.

0:59:210:59:22

The One O'Clock News is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:59:220:59:26

And I'll be here at noon

tomorrow with all the big

0:59:260:59:28

political stories of the day.

0:59:280:59:30

Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Graham Brady, chairman of the influential 1922 Committee of Conservative backbench MPs, to discuss the government's 25-Year Environment Plan, NHS funding, and the future of the Conservative Party.