16/01/2018 Daily Politics


16/01/2018

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news from Westminster, with guest Anna Soubry MP.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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The collapse of the firm Carillion

has sent a shockwave

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through Westminster.

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The Government is under pressure

over the pay and jobs of workers

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and the cost to the taxpayer,

while Jeremy Corbyn claims

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it's a watershed moment

in British politics.

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Boris Johnson doubles down

on the infamous claim the UK pays

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£350 million a week to the EU.

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He says it's actually a gross

underestimate and we're

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handing over even more.

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Germany hasn't had

one since September.

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The Belgians managed without one

for more than 18 months.

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As Northern Ireland marks a year

without an elected government,

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we'll be asking what people

are missing out on.

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If you feel you haven't

heard enough from Jacob

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Rees-Mogg, then good news.

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There's now a new podcast devoted

entirely to his musings.

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We'll discuss this latest

stage of Moggmania.

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All that in the next hour.

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And with us for the whole

of the programme today

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is the Conservative MP,

former minister and ardent

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pro-European, Anna Soubry.

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No word yet on whether she's

planning to launch her own podcast.

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You've given me a very good idea.

Something to think about.

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Let's start today by talking

about Boris Johnson.

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The Foreign Secretary has been

speaking to the Guardian about one

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of the most high-profile,

and most contentious,

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claims made by the Leave campaign

during the 2016 EU referendum.

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Mr Johnson tells the paper

that the original statement

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on the Vote Leave battle bus,

that Britain sends £350 million

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a week to the EU was wrong -

the real figure is actually higher.

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He says the UK's weekly gross

contribution would rise

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to £438 million by the end

of the transition period

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after Brexit, which is

expected to be in 2020.

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He acknowledges that the figure

doesn't include the money

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we get back from the EU but says,

"We grossly underestimated

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the sum over which we would be able

to take back control."

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Now, I am sure this, returning to

the figure on the side of the bus...

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I was so excited you said he had

admitted finally it was inaccurate.

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Do you accept that the figure,

whatever it is, there have been

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arguments about net and gross

figures, it is still a substantial

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amount of money that Britain would

have control over?

No, people have

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been conned. Surprised and

disappointed in Boris he is

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perpetuating these nonsenses. I know

the figure of 350 million a week was

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inaccurate because of the point you

quite rightly make of gross and net.

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It does not take into account the

amount we get back. It is more

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important than that. It is not extra

money going to the NHS, people were

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conned about that and I'm very

disappointed that given where we

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are, our Foreign Secretary, who

holds one of the great offices of

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state, he is not squaring up and

being honest with the British people

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and they deserve honesty.

Let us

look at the figures. You say he is

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not being honest and there have been

arguments about it, as we know, but

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if you look at the Office for Budget

Responsibility, it had a set of

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figures and it said by 2021, the

figures in pounds per week that the

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Government would have control over

would be £269 million. That may not

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go to the NHS but do you accept the

British Government will have control

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over a sizeable amount of money?

I

don't know, I have not looked at

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these things. What you see is what

you get from me. What I do know is

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that this is not going to be

additional funds going to the NHS

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and that was an important part of

the trick that was played upon the

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British people, that they believed

that they would somehow get this

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money for the NHS and that is not

going to happen.

Why is it not going

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to happen? After transition, let us

say, the Government says, actually,

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we will put a lot more extra money

and we will take some of it out of

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the money...

That is a different

matter. If the Government decides to

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put even more, over and above the

additional billions of pounds we

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have put in, health spending is at

record levels in our country.

If

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they use some of the money we would

have control over...

If I can just

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finished, it is really important,

one of the things people are

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understanding, the reality of Brexit

is, if we do not get a great deal,

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and I greatly fear we will not get

the sort of deal we are being told

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we will get, in that event, our

economy is going to suffer and we

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know that we only get great public

services when we have a great

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economy, one of the strengths of the

Conservative government is that we

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improve the economy, meaning we have

more to spend on public services.

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Brexit

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Brexit will hit us hard. It is

really important we do not give

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people false hopes and phoney

promises, as Cabinet leave did to

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win the referendum.

That was in the

campaign. -- as Leave it. Do you

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accept there will be this pot of

money the Government would have

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control over and it would have the

option, it may choose not to do so,

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of those contributions coming back

under government control and putting

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it back into the NHS?

It is not as

straightforward as that. Remember,

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already Brexit has cost us billions

of pounds because the Government has

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had to put money aside to spend it

to effectively deliver Brexit. The

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reality of all of this, I believe,

is dawning on people and Boris is

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being irresponsible to continue to

con people in this way. He should be

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honest about the challenges Brexit

poses to our country.

Do you think

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it is likely, that he will stop

talking about these things?

Sadly, I

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feel that will not happen. I wish he

would. He is our Foreign Secretary.

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This is grown-up drop stuff.

He has

to man up to the position he holds.

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We will come back to Brexit in a few

minutes, surprise surprise.

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Let's turn now to the story

which is dominating the news today,

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that's the collapse of Britain's

second largest construction

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firm Carillion.

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The company employs 20,000 people

in the UK, and its work stretched

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from the HS2 rail project

and military contracts

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to maintaining hospitals,

schools, and prisons.

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There are plenty of questions

being asked about the collapse,

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from the hefty pay packets given

to the company's bosses,

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to what support the Government

is giving to the firm's employees

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and contractors, not to mention

the eventual cost to the taxpayer.

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Our correspondent, Chris Mason,

has been following it all closely.

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The Government is no doubt starting

to count the cost in more ways than

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one of Carillion going under. It

said there would be no taxpayer

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bailout, but what is it committed to

paying in terms of people's jobs and

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wages?

A huge challenge. The

Government has said in the short

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term it's focus is on ensuring the

services that Carillion is meant to

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deliver can be delivered, whether

that be the provision of school

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meals or cleaning hospitals. As you

say, there is the vast consequences

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in the medium and long term. What

about the giant pension deficit?

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What about all of the smaller firms

who were subcontractors of

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Carillion, around 30,000 are

effectively customers of Carillion,

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huge question marks about how they

will be paid for work they have

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done. The Government has set up the

Cobra committee which met last

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night, whole wave of ministers into

the Cabinet Office last night, all

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over Whitehall, painting a picture

of the extent to which the tentacles

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of Carillion run into all aspects of

the public sector. Cabinet has been

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meeting this morning and there is a

briefing for Westminster journalists

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happening right now on the Cabinet

discussions. Carillion is no doubt a

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big topic. The bigger question that

has been seized upon by Jeremy

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Corbyn in Labour, the question has

not been a staple of mainstream

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politics for quite awhile, to what

extent should private sector firms

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have a big involvement in the

delivery of public sector work? The

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Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

government and Labour were

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comfortable with the likes of

Carillion and others being involved

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in the delivery of public services.

The coalition and the Conservatives

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have been keen on that as well.

Jeremy Corbyn is very keen to say

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they should be a shift away from

what he sees as that outsource first

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dogma. That will be the coming

political battle, given the gap

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there is between Labour and the

Conservatives on the instinct on how

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it is delivered.

The other side

which will anger the public is the

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issue of salaries and bonuses that

have been paid and to some extent

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are still continuing to be paid to

the senior staff, executives, at

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Carillion. The Department of

Business has put out the following

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release asking the investigation

into directors to be fast tracked.

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Do you think that will be enough to

assuage the anger of people looking

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at what has been called in some

papers fat cat bonuses?

A keen

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awareness in government about how

toxic it is. You have the 30,000

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firms, small and medium-sized

businesses, the kind of people and

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entrepreneurs every political party

but particularly the Conservatives

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are keen to appeal to worried about

getting paid. On the other hand,

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talk of the vast amounts of money

being paid out that senior

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executives. There is a real

awareness yesterday, it will be

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reflected again today, within

government, there should not be a

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sense of rewards for failure, they

should not be a sense of socialising

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losses while privatising huge gains

and profits. There will be an acute

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awareness about how that is handled.

The Government has said it is in the

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hands of the official receiver, but

you can expect the rhetoric from the

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very top on this to continue to be

pretty sharp.

Thank you.

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words on the subject of Carillion.

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Here he is in a message

posted online last night.

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In the wake of the collapse

of the contractor Carillion,

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it's time to put

an end to the rip-off

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privatisation policies

that

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have done serious damage

to our public services,

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and fleeced the public

of billions of pounds.

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This is a watershed moment.

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That was the Labour leader,

Jeremy Corbyn, in a message online.

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So, is this a watershed

moment, as he claims,

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and do the public agree?

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Ellie Price has been out

with the entirely unscientific

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Daily Politics moodbox to find out.

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It has become a fact of life,

private companies are involved in

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everything from our schools to our

prisons, railways, hospitals. Some

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say when it comes to efficiency,

business knows best. Others say it

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is an experiment that has run its

course. Is public ownership back in

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fashion? That is what we are asking

today. Who do you want to see run

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the book services, the private or

public sector?

-- the public

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services. It depends on which public

services you are talking about and

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how well they will be funded if it

is the public sector and how the

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deal will be broken in the private

sector.

We want money to be spent

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well and for the taxpayer to get

good value, go in that pocket.

The

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private sector, it does not really

work and the profit motive is

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overwhelming.

I think it is a

massive question, what is the role

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of the public sector? How much can

be delegated to individual people to

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make their own economic decisions in

life?

Thank you. Is it more

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efficient if you are private

company?

It is, but efficiency comes

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at a cost, that is the problem.

Prisons should revert back to

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public. Trains, probably public. The

private companies seem to be greedy.

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Oh, it is the rainbow! A combination

is optimal. But public.

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is optimal. But public.

Oh, it is

running away!

I am in an anarchist.

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How do you have a way away if you do

not have a private or public sector?

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Everyone will join together as

people and we will create our own

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little unions that will manage it.

There are lessons to take from the

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private sector in terms of

efficiencies and that kind of thing

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but on the whole, you need that kind

of thing being looked after by

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someone who is not trying to make a

profit out of it.

It should be the

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public sector but probably at the

moment the private sector is looking

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after it better.

The day is drawn to

the close and so too is the mood

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box. A number set a healthy

combination is a good idea but

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overall the winner here is pretty

clear. The public sector should look

0:14:220:14:27

after the public services.

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A fairly decisive

result in the decidedly

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non-scientific moodbox there.

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To discuss Carillion

and the public-private debate more

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generally we're joined by Mick Cash,

General Secretary of the RMT union,

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and my guest of the day,

Anna Soubry, is a former Business

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Minister.

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Before I come to you Mick Cash, just

on some of the fundamentals Anna

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Soubry in terms of what is going to

happen to the staff make up part of

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Carillion's workforce, 62% of the

work is in the private sector and

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that could be thousands of thousands

of employees on private contract,

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should the Government also guarantee

their salaries?

My first port of

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call on this is the workforce, and

for a lot of those people they will

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be very worried are about whether

they are going to get paid this week

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or this month.

Only to tomorrow they

have been told.

Having been involved

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in the closure remember of a

steelworks up in red car, there are

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ways that Government can get

involved in things, to make sure

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that months are made available so

workers are paid. These, there are

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discreet methods often, we made sure

people were paid in the face of

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those men not being, mainly men not

being paid.

You think as well as

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guaranteeing the wages of the public

sector worker, those with public

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sector worker,s, the Government

should extend that?

No, I am not

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getting into that detail, what I am

saying is there will be ways that

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the Government can make sure that

they do everything they can, to

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ensure that those men and women, are

paid for the work they have done,

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and they should use whatever levers

they have got do that. Trust me

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there are ways that it can be done.

Why should employees employed by

0:16:100:16:18

private sector companies be bailed

out of or paid by the Government?

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Depends what you mean by private

sector contracts. Carillion do a lot

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of work on the railway, are they

private or public? It would be

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interesting to see what you mean by

that, they have blurred the line

0:16:310:16:36

completely, since they have

outsourced the previous Governments

0:16:360:16:39

into the private and public arena, I

would ask that first question, what

0:16:390:16:42

do you mean by that? Ultimately, a

lot of the work actually is

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guarantee by the taxpayer. It is

publicly funded. We should be

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looking after those workers because

if we don't the economy is going to

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suffer. Equally...

How long should

they be looked after?

We are in that

0:16:540:16:59

situation we we have done it before.

Banks got bailed out. We have seen

0:16:590:17:04

bail outs of southern and East Coast

Trains by the Government, they are

0:17:040:17:08

prepared to give them money, and in

fact you will find a lot of the

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workers they have contracts they are

working to, the issue is the company

0:17:120:17:16

is no trading but there are

contracts and there is work.

There

0:17:160:17:19

are contracts, they are not public

sector contract in the that sense,

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but if they are provided services on

the railways, do you still pay...

0:17:230:17:30

You will continue public sector

clear things like the delivery of

0:17:300:17:34

school meals, the cleaning of

hospital, things like that, for

0:17:340:17:39

example, in something, I have some

knowledge of, the MoD, the delivery

0:17:390:17:44

of the service accommodation

contracts, these contracts can be

0:17:440:17:47

delivered upon, because somebody

else can be found to do that work,

0:17:470:17:50

because that work can't and won't

stop.

Does that reassure you?

To the

0:17:500:17:55

point you rightly make, I think we

are in agreement about this, about

0:17:550:17:58

when do other sorts of contracts

cross over, into a new way that was

0:17:580:18:05

introduced by the last Government.

They have done wok for Network Rail

0:18:050:18:10

over Christmas, they work for a

private sector operators, they are

0:18:100:18:16

plant operator, are they going to

get paid? We don't know. One of the

0:18:160:18:20

aspects of this and Anna is certain

about this, I am not, I have spoken

0:18:200:18:25

to the chief executive of Network

Rail, to to the special manager

0:18:250:18:29

appointed by the administrators to

find out who is public, private and

0:18:290:18:32

we don't know. The lack of

repairedness by the government is

0:18:320:18:36

shocking.

Let us talk about that. Do

you think the Government

0:18:360:18:42

fundamentally dropped the ball in

its dealing with this firm over the

0:18:420:18:44

last six to nine months?

I don't

know, what I do know because I used

0:18:440:18:48

to be a Business Minister, you are

kept alert, always. We were all

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alert publicly because they had a

profits warning back in junk July.

0:18:550:18:58

July.

So it was clear this was a

company in deep trouble.

Should they

0:18:580:19:05

have had more Government contracts

awarded?

That is the very difficult

0:19:050:19:08

question, I am not able to answer it

because I don't know enough about

0:19:080:19:11

it. But it would seem that this is a

very difficult one, as Government,

0:19:110:19:16

do you help somebody, or do you, are

you cognisant of the fact they could

0:19:160:19:22

be in deep trouble, in which event

it could be argued it is not a good

0:19:220:19:27

thing to do. I what I am confident

has happened is the Secretary of

0:19:270:19:33

State for Transport will have

received advice on that, if he

0:19:330:19:36

didn't I would be surprised.

Do you

share... You seem to be relaxed this

0:19:360:19:43

what happens, firms succeed and

fail. Is that the case. Is that

0:19:430:19:50

water shed moment? Is this different

in the way Jeremy Corbyn has

0:19:500:19:55

characterised it, than a major

company failing, and all of the

0:19:550:20:00

problems that brings.

It shows that

jous sourcing has failed. We need to

0:20:000:20:06

bring more back in to public hand,

if you are in the private sector,

0:20:060:20:11

you get wads of money, and then the

company goes bust it is the

0:20:110:20:15

creditor, a lot of them workers at

the sharp end who pay the price.

You

0:20:150:20:19

miss the point.

Have we reached the

end of the road with outsourcing? Is

0:20:190:20:24

it time for a review, David

Lidington seemed to imply there

0:20:240:20:28

should be a review.

This is my take

on thing, one of the big problems we

0:20:280:20:32

have, is that when we are putting

out these big contracts, they

0:20:320:20:38

invariably go to very big companies

and the medium and small businesses

0:20:380:20:42

are not included in the way they

should be. So big companies like

0:20:420:20:46

Carillion which had an incredible

spread of work, which I find rather

0:20:460:20:51

odd in any event, they get these

contracts because Government has a

0:20:510:20:55

responsibility to get the cheapest

price, to get value for the

0:20:550:20:58

taxpayer. Then what happens is they

can't deliver it -- deliver it.

0:20:580:21:03

Whose fault is that?

Let me explain.

I think we have a problem in the

0:21:030:21:09

procurement and tendering at

national and local level. It is too

0:21:090:21:12

much for the big company, you tend

to get what you pay for, I have some

0:21:120:21:16

experience from MoD. And my concern

was, because this may help you, it

0:21:160:21:20

will help you as well Mick, my

concern, we have to be honest...

Why

0:21:200:21:24

not take them back in house, if the

taxpayer is having to bail out...

0:21:240:21:29

What would happen is a very big

company would say we can deliver

0:21:290:21:32

this contract for this amount of

money. People would say we have to

0:21:320:21:36

go for the lowest bid, without

drilling down, remembering you get

0:21:360:21:39

what you pay for and then they sub

contract and sub contract so you

0:21:390:21:44

ended up almost in a position where

to deliver that contract

0:21:440:21:47

successfully was almost impossible.

I understand.

Unless you didn't pay

0:21:470:21:52

people decent money and you

didn't...

Making the point for

0:21:520:21:55

bringing it into the public sector.

It is for profit margin, they want

0:21:550:22:05

to make money out of of this. They

will use taxpayer money, when things

0:22:050:22:09

fail the taxpayer picks up the tab.

I am old enough to remember when all

0:22:090:22:14

of these things were in the public

sector, it didn't deliver value for

0:22:140:22:18

money. The Labour Party row

introduced this huge outsourcing and

0:22:180:22:25

rightly so, the watershed moment

this shows the drift in the Labour

0:22:250:22:28

Party. Back to a mashist way of

doing things about state control.

0:22:280:22:33

Let the market properly control...

Let him respond.

I am old enough to

0:22:330:22:38

remember when it was in the public

sector and I used to be employed by

0:22:380:22:41

Carillion Rail when they were doing

the maintenance contract for Network

0:22:410:22:45

Rail who brought it in house and

saved almost 400 million by bringing

0:22:450:22:51

maintenance in house back in 2004.

We are in that situation where we

0:22:510:22:56

doe that the private sector, cost

money because they have the profit

0:22:560:22:59

motive, they have to deal with the

shareholders, the public sector

0:22:590:23:03

saves money for and every bit of

money that gets spent or is earned

0:23:030:23:07

goes back into the service.

We are

running out of time.

I don't, I

0:23:070:23:14

want, if it is right to do it

inhousely do it inhouse.

Is it right

0:23:140:23:18

in this case to take it in house?

The private sector is out and it is

0:23:180:23:25

all ant state control.

Should the

private sector be involved in

0:23:250:23:29

delivering public services in the

way they have here, because it seems

0:23:290:23:34

that privatisation means profits are

privatised and losses are

0:23:340:23:37

nationalised.

It is about delivering

the best value for the taxpayer, the

0:23:370:23:41

point I was making which I

thought...

You are not. How are you?

0:23:410:23:46

Talk one at a time.

There is a real

role for the private sector to play,

0:23:460:23:50

but it has to be done in a better

way...

Moo would the private sector

0:23:500:23:56

want to do public sector work? To

make profit.

That is what pays your

0:23:560:24:02

workers' wages. That is what keeps

the economy going so we get the

0:24:020:24:07

great public service, that says more

about the Labour Party and the state

0:24:070:24:11

it is in. Back to Marxism.

So it is

Labour's fault what has happened to

0:24:110:24:17

Carillion. That is what has caused

it?

One question, is it your view

0:24:170:24:23

that everything private is bad and

public is good?

You are in that

0:24:230:24:27

situation where the profit motive

drives, takes Monday out of the

0:24:270:24:31

public sector.

Do you think the

chief executives should have his

0:24:310:24:34

bonus clawed back. £660,000 a year.

That is the ex-chief executive. He

0:24:340:24:40

has a conscience.

Should it be

clawed back.

That is up to him. He

0:24:400:24:45

should do the right thing, he should

know. It is absolutely, because...

0:24:450:24:56

Do you think he should be deprived

of that massive amount of money

You

0:24:560:25:00

have already paid him. I am very

pleased to see the Government is

0:25:000:25:05

excel rating those very strict rule

about directorers, it is important

0:25:050:25:10

stuff, if you are found to have done

something wrong the consequences are

0:25:100:25:13

huge for you as a director and

rightly so.

Thank you for coming in.

0:25:130:25:17

Thank you for coming in.

0:25:170:25:18

MPs are back debating the EU

withdrawal bill today -

0:25:180:25:21

that's the bill which aims to ensure

European law will no longer apply

0:25:210:25:24

in the UK after Brexit.

0:25:240:25:32

But of course what happens

in Parliament is only one part

0:25:330:25:36

of the Brexit process,

which is set to dominate

0:25:360:25:38

politics in 2018.

0:25:380:25:39

The Brexit negotiations

are ongoing, although at

0:25:390:25:41

the moment the discussions

are between officials.

0:25:410:25:43

A date hasn't yet been set

for the next face-to-face meeting

0:25:430:25:45

between the Brexit Secretary David

Davis and the EU Chief

0:25:450:25:48

Negotiator Michel Barnier.

0:25:480:25:49

Top of the agenda will be agreeing

the terms of a transition

0:25:490:25:52

agreement, to cover a period

of around two years.

0:25:520:25:54

Theresa May is also expected to host

further cabinet discussions

0:25:540:25:56

to hammer out what the UK's final

relationship with the EU

0:25:560:25:59

should look like.

0:25:590:26:00

And Theresa May is hoping to be

in a position to set out her vision

0:26:000:26:04

of that relationship in her third

major Brexit speech in February.

0:26:040:26:07

A meeting of the European Council -

that's the heads of government

0:26:070:26:09

from across the EU -

will get under way in March.

0:26:090:26:12

Could this be the moment

when the terms of the transition

0:26:120:26:15

deal will be agreed?

0:26:150:26:16

And both the UK Government

and the EU are hoping to reach final

0:26:160:26:19

agreement on separation issues

by October 2018.

0:26:190:26:21

It's unclear whether the future

trading relationship will be covered

0:26:210:26:23

by a broad political declaration

or a more detailed agreement.

0:26:230:26:25

And after any deal is agreed,

it will to be voted

0:26:250:26:28

on in the UK parliament -

and there will also be ratification

0:26:280:26:31

in the EU parliament

and the remaining EU countries.

0:26:310:26:37

On 29th March 2019, the UK

will leave the EU, and,

0:26:370:26:39

in theory, enter a transition

or implementation period.

0:26:390:26:41

The EU have said they think

that the transition deal should

0:26:410:26:44

end by December 2020.

0:26:440:26:52

Well, MEPs in Strasbourg have this

morning been debating the deal

0:26:530:26:55

struck at the end of last year,

concluding the first part

0:26:550:26:58

of the negotiations.

0:26:580:26:59

Our correspondent Adam Fleming

is there as usual.

0:26:590:27:01

S, it is important stuff,

0:27:010:27:02

Adam, tell us what was discussed?

0:27:040:27:12

The big thing today was Donald Tusk,

the President of the European

0:27:120:27:16

Council who chairs the summit says

the door was open for the UK to stay

0:27:160:27:20

in the EU, if British voters decide

to change their minds. He has said

0:27:200:27:24

something like this before, do you

remember last summer when he

0:27:240:27:29

channelled John Lennon and said a

imagine a world where there's no

0:27:290:27:32

Brexit. He has never said it so

strongly as this. This is what he

0:27:320:27:35

had to say a couple of hours ago.

If the UK Government sticks to its

0:27:350:27:43

decision to leave, Brexit will

become a reality, with all its

0:27:430:27:49

negative consequences, in March next

year. Unless there is a change of

0:27:490:27:55

heart among our British friends.

Wasn't it David Davis himself who

0:27:550:28:05

said if democracy cannot change its

mind it ceases to be a democracy, we

0:28:050:28:10

here on the Continent haven't had a

change of heart. Our hearts are

0:28:100:28:13

still open to you.

And that sentiment was enco-ed by

0:28:130:28:20

Jean-Claude Juncker, the Presidents

of the European Commission, who said

0:28:200:28:23

he hopes that message was heard loud

and clear in London. Now, what both

0:28:230:28:27

men said though, was that what they

really want now is for the UK

0:28:270:28:32

Government to provide more clarity

about what sort of relationship they

0:28:320:28:35

want with the EU, ahead of the

negotiations about phase two, trade,

0:28:350:28:40

cooperation on security and defence

and all sorts of stuff like that

0:28:400:28:44

which will start after another EU

summit in March.

0:28:440:28:47

Thank you very much. We are joined

by Nigel Evans.

0:28:470:28:58

Michael, what do you make of that?

I

heard it all. We have changed our

0:28:590:29:04

mind we decided in 1975 to vote to

stay in the European Union, and we

0:29:040:29:08

have changed our mind, we have

decided to come out. If in 40 odd

0:29:080:29:12

years the British people want to

have another say maybe we will

0:29:120:29:15

change our minds again. Maybe the

European Union are going to change

0:29:150:29:19

their minds about their approach to

how the European Union is going to

0:29:190:29:22

develop over the coming year, they

have problems with Poland, problems

0:29:220:29:27

with Hungary, economic disaster in

countries like Greece who are going

0:29:270:29:31

for another £5 billion bail out with

more austerity measure, they have a

0:29:310:29:37

huge number of problems on their

plate. I will focus on that, I know

0:29:370:29:42

the European Union are used to

countries voting in treaty

0:29:420:29:45

referendums, and when they get it

wrong being asked to vote again,

0:29:450:29:49

well, nobody's asking for us to vote

again other than those who want us

0:29:490:29:52

to stay in the European Union.

As

you say there are some, although

0:29:520:29:56

Nigel Farage did raise the spectre

of a second referendum even if he

0:29:560:30:00

was slapped down for it after.

Several MPs who supported Remain

0:30:000:30:08

including Anna Soubry met Michel

Barnier in Brussels. Do you think

0:30:080:30:12

that is a helpful contribution

I

don't know what Anna said to Michel

0:30:120:30:18

Barnier, whether she and Dominic

Grieve and a few others spelled out

0:30:180:30:22

the real issue, we voted to leave by

a clear margin, 57% of my own

0:30:220:30:28

constituency voted to leave. Every

one in Lancashire voted to leave.

0:30:280:30:33

Anna Soubry's own constituency voted

to leave and so I think it is quite

0:30:330:30:38

a clear message, 1.4 million

difference in the largest

0:30:380:30:42

participatory referendum this

country has ever seen.

0:30:420:30:49

All we want to do now is Levon

really good terms. I am hoping that

0:30:500:30:53

is what Anna was talking to Michel

Barnier about. We still want to buy

0:30:530:31:01

champagne from France. We still want

to trade with them.

Let us talk

0:31:010:31:07

about the deal. The transition needs

to be agreed before you get to the

0:31:070:31:11

end point of the deal. What do you

say to reports today the EU will

0:31:110:31:16

insist on the transition being

virtually exactly the same as the

0:31:160:31:20

status quo, including freedom of

movement continuing?

We will have to

0:31:200:31:24

see about that. It seems as if the

argument is being reopened now when

0:31:240:31:28

we thought the issue as far as EU

citizens in Britain and British

0:31:280:31:32

citizens in the EU had

0:31:320:31:43

been properly settled and either

stand the Polish are saying they are

0:31:470:31:50

unhappy with that and would rather

liked to continue in the transition

0:31:500:31:52

period.

You thought freedom of

movement would finish in March,

0:31:520:31:54

2019, and that is what you would

like Theresa May to secure?

That is

0:31:540:31:57

what I would like. If they want to

come and settle and have the same

0:31:570:32:00

rights as other EU citizens in the

UK, they can do that until then, and

0:32:000:32:03

the other way around.

Would you

accept those terms continuing in

0:32:030:32:06

transition, single market

membership, part of the customs

0:32:060:32:09

union, taking and accepting some

rules from the ECJ and allowing any

0:32:090:32:14

EU citizens coming here up until

2020 2/2-full residency rights, like

0:32:140:32:19

British citizens in the EU

countries, would you those terms?

0:32:190:32:24

I'm a pragmatist. I know the Prime

Minister and David Davis will be

0:32:240:32:28

negotiating up until October this

year. My own view on that is I am

0:32:280:32:33

not going to tie the hands of the

Prime Minister. If she is able to

0:32:330:32:38

negotiate a sensible deal and a

trade-off in other areas by

0:32:380:32:41

accepting that, I will leave it to

her, I will back the Prime Minister

0:32:410:32:46

in the negotiation she is currently

doing, I will not tie her hands.

0:32:460:32:50

What about the EU withdrawal bill?

The flagship piece of Brexit

0:32:500:32:55

legislation.

Another two days.

I am

sure you are looking forward to it.

0:32:550:32:59

The Government was defeated by Tory

rebels last month, including Anna

0:32:590:33:04

Soubry. Are you expecting more

trouble?

Only in the House of Lords.

0:33:040:33:09

Anna will let us know about what the

approach is from those who are more

0:33:090:33:14

pro-European than I am, but I

understand that when it gets to the

0:33:140:33:20

House of Lords, clearly people like

Lord Adonis and Michael Heseltine,

0:33:200:33:24

still fighting the last war, as far

as the referendum is concerned, they

0:33:240:33:28

are going to do what they can to

thwart Britain leaving the EU. It

0:33:280:33:33

will be an interesting battle. The

people versus the peers, the

0:33:330:33:40

unelected members of the House of

Lords against the sovereignty of the

0:33:400:33:43

British people who voted in a

referendum and we all remember that

0:33:430:33:47

David Cameron sent a pamphlet to

every household in the country,

0:33:470:33:51

costing 9 million quid, and on the

back, it said, we will respect the

0:33:510:33:58

will of the British people. It will

take a very brave House of Lords to

0:33:580:34:01

go against that.

Thank you. You went

to see Michel Barnier with others

0:34:010:34:07

yesterday.

We actually saw some

other people as well.

Michel Barnier

0:34:070:34:13

was one of the people you saw. What

did you say?

A private conversation.

0:34:130:34:18

The details of which I am not going

to go into. I can tell you we made

0:34:180:34:23

the case and we made it very clear

we want the best deal we can

0:34:230:34:27

possibly get but in all of our

discussions yesterday, it was very

0:34:270:34:31

interesting, the messages we were

getting back. There is obviously

0:34:310:34:37

very grave concern about whether or

not we are being realistic and

0:34:370:34:40

indeed whether or not people are

being properly informed as to the

0:34:400:34:44

reality of what is likely to be

offered. We have put ourselves in a

0:34:440:34:49

difficult position. We are leaving

the EU but we have tied our hands

0:34:490:34:54

unfortunately by the red line is the

Government set down before the

0:34:540:34:58

general election in June.

Except, of

course, Nigel Evans has just said,

0:34:580:35:02

he will not tie the Government's

hands, the status quo will remain.

0:35:020:35:07

The transition period is a whole

load of other stuff as well, I am

0:35:070:35:10

talking about the red lines the

Prime Minister laid down in the

0:35:100:35:14

Lancaster gate speech, no single

market, customs union, ECJ.

You

0:35:140:35:18

think that is a possibility, we

would remain in the single market

0:35:180:35:23

estimate we can't.

Sorry, by putting

down the red lines, before the

0:35:230:35:27

general election, which clearly we

lost our majority in, rejection of

0:35:270:35:32

the British people of the hard

Brexit which I think the Prime

0:35:320:35:35

Minister, I do not think she wanted

it, but those behind her did, they

0:35:350:35:40

were preparing for that, that is

what the EU withdrawal bill is

0:35:400:35:43

about, delivering a hard Brexit.

Things changed. But we have not

0:35:430:35:47

changed our red lines. What the EU

can offer us is limited because we

0:35:470:35:51

behind the red lines, we will not

begin to blur...

If that limits the

0:35:510:36:00

options available, heading towards a

hard Brexit, in your mind, the EU

0:36:000:36:05

withdrawal bill, will you oppose the

Government?

I did not say that,

0:36:050:36:08

forgive me. I am hoping that is not

what will happen and I do not

0:36:080:36:13

believe our Prime Minister wants

that for one moment. The difficulty

0:36:130:36:17

is as far as the EU is concerned,

everything is on the table, single

0:36:170:36:23

market, customs union, ECJ. All the

things that flow from that. Our

0:36:230:36:27

problem as a country is we have

reduced the options and we have not

0:36:270:36:31

revisited them in the wake... My own

very strong belief is that we should

0:36:310:36:37

put all the options back on the

table to enable decent negotiations

0:36:370:36:42

to carry on. In the transition

period, we really have to be honest

0:36:420:36:48

with people and realistic, the EU

hold the cards.

Right, of course,

0:36:480:36:53

the Government says that is not the

case. One commentator, Tim

0:36:530:37:00

Montgomerie, on Twitter, quoted

Margaret Thatcher when he saw your

0:37:000:37:03

picture of you and others, treachery

with a smile on its face, what do

0:37:030:37:10

you say to him?

I am not interested.

We were having a very good

0:37:100:37:14

discussion which is what the British

people want to hear.

Are you

0:37:140:37:19

betraying people who voted in?

I am

not interested in playing that game

0:37:190:37:22

of politics.

You said the Government

has tied its hand with the red lines

0:37:220:37:27

and you disagree, but are they not

just representing the 17.4 million

0:37:270:37:32

people who voted leave?

They voted

to leave the EU, we will leave the

0:37:320:37:35

EU, but we did not put on the ballot

paper, it was not part... What does

0:37:350:37:41

leave mean? One of the big problems

EU has is that our government still

0:37:410:37:48

has not decided what leave means.

Come on, when you go into

0:37:480:37:52

negotiations, how can the EU deal

with the government that has not

0:37:520:37:55

itself worked out what it wants?

It

is going to, and later this month,

0:37:550:37:59

the EU withdrawal bill will go to

the Lords. Do you agree with Nigel

0:37:590:38:04

Evans the Lords could perhaps

overturned some of what has been

0:38:040:38:07

achieved in the Commons?

The Lords

will do whatever they wish to do,

0:38:070:38:11

put down all sorts of amendments no

doubt.

Do you cheer them on? Michael

0:38:110:38:19

Heseltine, what are you hoping the

Lords will achieve?

What I want the

0:38:190:38:23

Lords to do is to do its job which

is to scrutinise legislation, that

0:38:230:38:27

is their job and I hope they will do

that. What I think is more important

0:38:270:38:32

than all of this is that in my

opinion the British people are fed

0:38:320:38:36

up to the back teeth with Brexit.

What evidence have you got for that?

0:38:360:38:41

I am a constituency MP, I know what

my constituents tell me. I know... I

0:38:410:38:47

have just been elected only six

months ago, people are fed up with

0:38:470:38:51

Brexit.

They would not want a

referendum on the deal or a second

0:38:510:38:55

referendum?

Can I just finished my

sentence? They are fed up with

0:38:550:38:58

Brexit and they want somebody to get

on and deliver on Brexit and they

0:38:580:39:04

also want and they are increasingly

concerned, as they understand the

0:39:040:39:09

arguments, learn more about the

reality of Brexit, they are worried,

0:39:090:39:15

ordinary, good people are worried...

Would they like to see a vote on the

0:39:150:39:18

terms of the deal? Would you support

that?

That is for the people of this

0:39:180:39:23

country, they are in charge, they

have to be.

A second public vote,

0:39:230:39:29

that would have to be parliament?

No, it comes from the people. All of

0:39:290:39:34

these things must come from the

people. Politicians can have their

0:39:340:39:38

point of view, Mr Farage has a point

of view, but it must come from the

0:39:380:39:42

people and they must be in charge of

the whole of the Brexit process.

0:39:420:39:46

They are an easy and at the moment

they have two political parties that

0:39:460:39:50

they do not believe represents them.

There are millions of people in the

0:39:500:39:54

country... 82% of them voted for

both of them in the election.

We

0:39:540:40:00

have to get onto other items. I am

not allowed to respond.

You have

0:40:000:40:05

responded quite fully.

0:40:050:40:08

Inflation dropped slightly

in December from 3.1% to 3%,

0:40:080:40:10

according to figures published this

morning, the first fall since June.

0:40:100:40:13

The Office for National Statistics

says it's too early to say

0:40:130:40:15

whether this is the start

of a longer-term reduction

0:40:150:40:18

in the rate of inflation,

although the Bank of England has

0:40:180:40:20

said it expected it to return

to the target of 2% later this year.

0:40:200:40:24

There was, however, little good news

for households in research published

0:40:240:40:26

this morning by the Institute

for Fiscal Studies, which found that

0:40:260:40:29

a third of the the lowest-income

households have loans and credit

0:40:290:40:32

card debts that outstrip

the assets they hold.

0:40:320:40:33

We're joined now by

Andrew Hood from the IFS.

0:40:330:40:39

Should the Government be worried?

It

is clearly important when thinking

0:40:390:40:44

about household living standards and

something government is concerned

0:40:440:40:47

about not just to think about their

incomes households have but also

0:40:470:40:51

where the income is going and in

particular, if a large chunk is

0:40:510:40:55

going on servicing existing debt

repayments rather than buying goods

0:40:550:40:58

and services, that could be a

concern.

What do you think should be

0:40:580:41:02

done to help those low income

households or individuals who are

0:41:020:41:08

taking loans to service debt? How

could the Government help them?

One

0:41:080:41:12

of the key the report brings to

light is that it is quite

0:41:120:41:16

challenging to work out exactly why

households take out debt. As you

0:41:160:41:20

mentioned, we look both at debt but

also that things like savings. It

0:41:200:41:25

turns out even though households

have assets, in a number of cases,

0:41:250:41:31

they still take on debt. It might be

encouraging households to for

0:41:310:41:34

example save more, that would not be

a panacea for the issue of problem

0:41:340:41:39

that among low-income households.

Thank you very much.

0:41:390:41:42

We're joined now by

the Shadow Treasury Minister,

0:41:420:41:44

Jonathan Reynolds.

0:41:440:41:45

What do you want the Government to

do, having looked at the report?

0:41:450:41:50

There are two things, stop pursuing

policies making the situation worse

0:41:500:41:54

for families.

Which? The freeze on

benefits, public sector pay freeze.

0:41:540:41:59

A long wait before you get support,

pushing people to credit or

0:41:590:42:04

foodbank. We also believe there are

some interventions were more

0:42:040:42:09

government action is required, for

instance, we set out a policy on

0:42:090:42:13

credit card charges. Credit cards

are useful but if you manage

0:42:130:42:16

long-term debt with them, clearly a

problem, there are a big group of

0:42:160:42:20

people who will never pay off the

principal amount of money they

0:42:200:42:23

borrowed. Some of that should be

capped. A big space on the market

0:42:230:42:27

here for the Government to do more,

as well as pursuing wider government

0:42:270:42:31

policies to not make the situation

worse.

On the issue of credit card

0:42:310:42:36

charges, do you agree with Jonathan

Reynolds there should be a cap on

0:42:360:42:41

the interest charge?

Not

particularly. I think the previous

0:42:410:42:44

government did a lot of good work

with payday loans which I was always

0:42:440:42:48

far more concerned about because

they were usually the company is

0:42:480:42:52

targeting the people with the least

amount of money.

One of the biggest

0:42:520:42:55

contributors to the high levels of

debt by low-income households,

0:42:550:42:59

people using credit cards and being

charged very high interest rates to

0:42:590:43:03

service the debt, for instance,

because they have not got high

0:43:030:43:07

enough salaries. To make ends meet.

I would like everybody to frankly

0:43:070:43:12

live more within their means and I

think it is really important. I

0:43:120:43:16

understand in difficult times, it is

a good point, people on Universal

0:43:160:43:22

Credit, going on to it, but I think

it is difficult, on the one hand,

0:43:220:43:26

you want an economy where people buy

more, you have a society which has

0:43:260:43:31

led to people, you can have today

what you want tomorrow. And

0:43:310:43:37

encouragement of credit. It is

difficult getting the balance right.

0:43:370:43:41

The problem is when people cannot

service the debt but it is

0:43:410:43:45

ultimately the responsibility of all

of us individually.

In the end, at

0:43:450:43:48

the to live within their means?

We

have to face the fact a lot of

0:43:480:43:53

people are not in a position to be

able to make those decisions because

0:43:530:43:56

they cannot make ends meet, an

important point to stress is if you

0:43:560:44:01

look at the Government's economic

plans from the Office for Budget

0:44:010:44:06

Responsibility, the rate of growth,

it is predicated on household debt

0:44:060:44:09

is going up. Quite frankly, for some

people, Anna is right, the

0:44:090:44:14

Government needs to do more on it,

people end up going from one lender

0:44:140:44:18

to another, a payday lender to a

credit card, they end up in a

0:44:180:44:22

terrible... The impact is huge.

That

is where we want government to do

0:44:220:44:26

more. You do not want the Government

to do anything about capping?

I do

0:44:260:44:31

not think it helps those people. One

of the things we talked a lot about

0:44:310:44:36

in the 2010-15 Parliament, good

cross-party work, the encouragement

0:44:360:44:40

of credit unions, they work in

communities with people who do not

0:44:400:44:43

have access to the information that

other people have and I have always

0:44:430:44:49

thought it was unfortunate, we never

made the progress on things like

0:44:490:44:52

that that I think we should have

done. A good example of good

0:44:520:44:56

cross-party working.

Let us look at

the broader policies, you say people

0:44:560:44:59

should live within their means, but

with the Universal Credit policy

0:44:590:45:02

being rolled out, people were

expected to suddenly work on a

0:45:020:45:06

monthly or six weekly basis and that

was very difficult for people being

0:45:060:45:10

paid weekly. In that sense, the

Government has

0:45:100:45:23

made it difficult for people to live

within their means.

We have changed

0:45:280:45:30

some of that.

Not all. What about

the quote the Government always

0:45:300:45:33

refers to, record levels of

employment, but wages not high

0:45:330:45:35

enough to meet the levels of

inflation. What should be done about

0:45:350:45:37

that?

That is different. We now have

a living wage.

Not keeping pace with

0:45:370:45:40

inflation.

Dropped.

Marginally.

That

is news to be welcomed. We have

0:45:400:45:44

lifted the pay cut when it comes to

the health service and we have said

0:45:440:45:48

we are open to the review bodies and

I accept that there is a problem

0:45:480:45:52

with people who are on low wages in

our country.

Should they be paid

0:45:520:45:56

more? Should the living wage go up?

Of course I want people to be paid

0:45:560:46:07

more, the way we do that is to make

sure we have a society where people

0:46:070:46:11

have the skills they need, to get

those better paid jobs, as our

0:46:110:46:16

society develops we are going to see

more automation, and that concerns

0:46:160:46:19

all of us, because then you could

see an impact on lower paid people,

0:46:190:46:23

because they won't have job, so we

need to upskill, that is really

0:46:230:46:27

important.

You are obviously

welcoming the fact there is record

0:46:270:46:31

levels of employment, but in your

mind, what could be done to make it

0:46:310:46:35

easier for people still on low

incomes?

Of course I welcome record

0:46:350:46:39

levels of employment. I want people

to have work, but we can't deny the

0:46:390:46:44

very valid point you made which is

for a lot of people it is low paid,

0:46:440:46:49

low skilled. That has led people to

have difficult lives. To raise

0:46:490:46:56

wages, but you have to increase

productivity, that requires

0:46:560:46:59

investment. It is hard to get

investment when you have the

0:46:590:47:04

uncertainty round something very wig

like Brexit going on, we have said

0:47:040:47:07

clearly there is a bigger role for

public investment, through being

0:47:070:47:11

clear about separating out

day-to-day borrowing from the

0:47:110:47:14

Government, from long-term

investment spending, that is what we

0:47:140:47:18

are attacked for from the

Government. There has to be a plan

0:47:180:47:21

to raise. If we have a Corbyn

Government God help the economy

That

0:47:210:47:26

is the harsh reality I agree about

investment, that is why I am

0:47:260:47:30

ploughed of the fact our investment

in infrastructure is at record

0:47:300:47:34

level, I think we are getting the

balance right.

It is not what this

0:47:340:47:39

country needs to...

We will have to

leave it there.

0:47:390:47:44

It's now been a year

since the devolved government

0:47:440:47:46

in Northern Ireland collapsed,

after Sinn Fein walked out

0:47:460:47:48

after a row about the failure

of a renewable heating scheme blamed

0:47:480:47:51

on the Democratic Unionist Party.

0:47:510:47:53

Since then, it's been

without the assembly

0:47:530:47:54

Since then, it's been

without the Assembly

0:47:540:47:56

and the executive, and most

of its functions have been carried

0:47:560:47:59

out by civil servants under

the supervision of Westminster.

0:47:590:48:01

But it's not the only example

of countries functioning

0:48:010:48:03

without an elected government.

0:48:030:48:04

Have a look at this.

0:48:040:48:09

It seems that size doesn't matter

when it comes to managing without a

0:48:090:48:13

government. Germany still doesn't

have one, after its inconclusive

0:48:130:48:17

federal election in September. A

blueprint for norm formal

0:48:170:48:25

negotiations has been agree. But it

could be months before new ministers

0:48:250:48:28

are in place.

The record for the longst period

0:48:280:48:33

without an elected Government in a

democracy was set in Belgian in

0:48:330:48:40

2010/11 after wrangling between

politicians led to a 589 day

0:48:400:48:44

stalemate. The previous record

holder was Iraq. Rip aid part by

0:48:440:48:51

warring clan, pirates and extremists

it is not surprising that Somalia

0:48:510:48:56

had no functioning Government for

almost 15 yores from the early 90s.

0:48:560:49:01

A the other end of spectrum the US

Government has shut down with

0:49:010:49:06

surprising regularly, when

Presidents have failed to agree on

0:49:060:49:08

funding with Congress, it means

Government workers at everything

0:49:080:49:12

from museums to National Parkings

and passport offices are sent home.

0:49:120:49:17

And Antarctica is one of the few

places on effort that permanently

0:49:170:49:23

lacks anything resembling a

government. It has no permanent

0:49:230:49:28

population or indigenous people,

apart from these little guys.

0:49:280:49:31

apart from these little guys.

0:49:310:49:33

We're joined now by Ed Turner.

0:49:330:49:34

He's a lecturer in politics

from Aston University.

0:49:340:49:37

Welcome. Do we need Government at

all?

Absolutely we do, things can be

0:49:370:49:42

kept ticking over for a while, so,

the trains still goes, people get

0:49:420:49:48

paid although that doesn't happen in

America if there is a proper shut

0:49:480:49:51

down. If you want to confront big

challenges you face as a country you

0:49:510:49:55

do need a government.

What about in

Germany, it is a big powerful

0:49:550:50:01

country, it hasn't got a government

since September.

That is is right.

0:50:010:50:04

The economy is doing well. As I say,

the regional Governments are going

0:50:040:50:08

strong, services are happening but

the country isn't confronting the

0:50:080:50:12

big challenge, a week ago I was

stalking to a senior civil servant

0:50:120:50:16

who said in practise no being

decisions are being taken, the

0:50:160:50:20

country is punching below its

weight.

No big decisions are being

0:50:200:50:25

taken, things are postponed, in

terms of day-to-day operating, the

0:50:250:50:30

systems sort of step into place,

there isn't the instability and

0:50:300:50:34

chaos people predict.

That is right.

In the case of Northern Ireland you

0:50:340:50:38

have the British Government able to

step in the the case of Germany or

0:50:380:50:44

Spain, Belgian you have regional

Governments, if you have fundamental

0:50:440:50:48

challenges you need to address you

do need to give political direction

0:50:480:50:50

to the Civil Service, and that

doesn't happen in you have no

0:50:500:50:53

established Government.

Is is there

really as much pressure to restore

0:50:530:50:57

this executive in terms of a time

frame, when actually it is

0:50:570:51:01

functioning all right without it for

the moment?

You always want

0:51:010:51:08

democratically elected governance,

it is fascinating. I am listening to

0:51:080:51:10

him. I am learning a lot. Keep

asking him.

What about the future,

0:51:100:51:15

would you like to see the executive

reestored as soon as possible.

Of

0:51:150:51:20

course, as I say do you want

democratically elected Government?

0:51:200:51:24

We do this thing called Purdah, we

have, ministers, everybody steps

0:51:240:51:29

back and it is a mark of a great

Civil Service, that things carry on,

0:51:290:51:34

that you want democratic Government.

What are the negative consequences

0:51:340:51:37

of being without a government? You

said the decisions are postponed,

0:51:370:51:41

important decision, is there

anything else?

Well, there is the

0:51:410:51:45

important point an ma made about the

legitimacy of decision, there is

0:51:450:51:50

something about things might get

slipped through, there was a mini

0:51:500:51:54

crisis in Germany, where in the

Council of Ministers, in the

0:51:540:51:58

European Union one acting minister

went rogue, cast Germany's vote in

0:51:580:52:03

favour of reviewing the vote for a

controversial pesticide. You might

0:52:030:52:08

see things slipped through untiler

the radar, we need politicians to

0:52:080:52:11

hold the Civil Service to account.

What about the example of Belgian,

0:52:110:52:14

not as much in the news as Germany,

but I think they hold the record in

0:52:140:52:19

living without a government for a

period of time. What happened there?

0:52:190:52:23

Well, there was a long running

disagreement about constitutional

0:52:230:52:27

arrangements. It looked like the

country would split, and they

0:52:270:52:31

managed to keep the show on the

road. At the same time there were

0:52:310:52:36

fundamental domestic questions about

fiscal policy they couldn't resolve

0:52:360:52:39

until a new Government was formed.

So they kept things going, they

0:52:390:52:43

managed to hold the presidency of

the European Council for some of

0:52:430:52:47

that time. They couldn't address

fundamental prisons because they

0:52:470:52:51

didn't have a government in place,

you need political cover, an

0:52:510:52:55

effected Government to do that.

When

politics as chaotic as it is in

0:52:550:53:00

Italy is it's a good idea to have

technocrats taking over?

It is a

0:53:000:53:06

question, but of course technocrats

imply you can take the politicsous

0:53:060:53:10

of decisions, but in Italy they were

taking profoundly political decision

0:53:100:53:15

without a democratic mandate. For

those 06 us who believe in free and

0:53:150:53:19

fair elections that is a problem.

0:53:190:53:20

fair elections that is a problem.

0:53:200:53:21

Jacob Rees-Mogg has become perhaps

the unlikeliest star

0:53:210:53:23

of the current Parliament - the

darling of the Conservative Party

0:53:230:53:26

conference, the subject of an online

fan movement known as Moggmentum,

0:53:260:53:28

and currently bookies' favourite

to succeed Theresa May as next

0:53:280:53:31

leader of the party.

0:53:310:53:34

If you're one of those who feels

they're just not hearing enough

0:53:340:53:37

from the MP for North East Somerset,

then I have good news.

0:53:370:53:40

He's agreed to take part

in a fortnightly podcast

0:53:400:53:42

for the website Conservative

Home called, perhaps

0:53:420:53:44

inevitably, the Moggcast.

0:53:440:53:45

Let's have a listen to him

discussing one of the biggest

0:53:450:53:47

domestic challenges

facing the government.

0:53:470:53:52

Out of decisions, but in

0:53:520:53:53

The other obvious area is the Health

Service, which is clearly under

0:53:560:54:00

strain during the winner flu

outbreak, but in reality, austerity

0:54:000:54:06

in the NHS for seven years of 1%

real increases is against what has

0:54:060:54:12

happened in its previous history,

and it is going to be very hard to

0:54:120:54:16

continue with moufr there are

limited resources.

0:54:160:54:19

continue with moufr there

are limited resources.

0:54:190:54:22

And Paul Goodman from the website

Conservative Home joins us now.

0:54:220:54:25

Is this Moggcast just him speaking,

is there any debate, you know, what

0:54:250:54:29

happens?

I do talk to him. There is

conversation, him and I or Mark

0:54:290:54:35

Wallace and I, he is my other

co-worker on Conservative Home. We

0:54:350:54:40

thought of offering him a column. We

have to cover the whole Tory

0:54:400:54:45

landscape, is one of the most

distinctive figures on the

0:54:450:54:48

landscape. We could have done that,

Nicky Morgan has a column, and we

0:54:480:54:53

could have offered one to him. I

thought what he is best known for,

0:54:530:54:57

is his speaking, so I will sit down

with him once a fortnight and

0:54:570:55:01

discuss the NHS, he wants a bit more

money for it, housing, he's all in

0:55:010:55:06

favour of more building on green

belt if necessary, which might

0:55:060:55:11

surprise, and Brexit, where he

thinks the House of Lords shouldn't

0:55:110:55:13

hold up with the withdrawal bill.

Is. What the most revealing thick he

0:55:130:55:17

has said? The most revealing thing

so far, and it came as a slight

0:55:170:55:23

surprise to the audience, is he said

it is going to be hard to sustain

0:55:230:55:28

NHS spending at this level rather

than increase it, given the

0:55:280:55:32

pressures on the service, that will

surprise some because he is seen as

0:55:320:55:37

a figure very much on the right of

the party. He dropped add broad hint

0:55:370:55:42

on that, so we have gone with that.

Have we reached peak Mogg in your

0:55:420:55:48

mind?

I have no idea. He doesn't

represent Conservative members in my

0:55:480:55:55

constituency or Conservative voter,

he has obviously, he is an important

0:55:550:56:01

player, he is a delightful man, but

I don't think that I would like

0:56:010:56:06

people to think Jacob represents the

modern day Conservative Party.

Why

0:56:060:56:11

is he so popular with so many?

I

don't know where the evidence is for

0:56:110:56:15

that.

According to our survey we

have a 1300 monthly panel. 70% of

0:56:150:56:24

them last month lined up behind the

Prime Minister's EU deal, so it is

0:56:240:56:29

not a bunch of...

Anybody,

But your

website is open to everybody, and if

0:56:290:56:34

you look at the comments on it,

there are a large number of poo who

0:56:340:56:37

are not members of the Conservative

Party who put comments, so to do

0:56:370:56:41

polls.

That is the classic mistake,

if I may say so, of, mistaken for

0:56:410:56:51

the thousands who read it each day.

They are not necessarily members of

0:56:510:56:55

the Conservative Party.

Look at the

results, if it was Ukipers or very

0:56:550:57:02

hard line Brexiteers you would have

7% of those who respond... In fact

0:57:020:57:09

70% of them, seven in ten I am sure

it's the same sort of view in your

0:57:090:57:13

association, you will tell me were

lined up behind the PM's deal.

He

0:57:130:57:19

was the darling of the party

conference?

What do you say that,

0:57:190:57:23

because a lot of people went to a

fringe meeting.

It was packed.

Most

0:57:230:57:29

Conservative Party members do not go

to conference, because in my

0:57:290:57:33

association most of them are at

work.

Graham Brady who would oversee

0:57:330:57:40

a leadership contest says he doesn't

think Jacob Rees-Mogg is a viable

0:57:400:57:45

candidate.

He said that himself, you

can't come from the backbench to be

0:57:450:57:51

Prime Minister. I find it hard to

imagine Jacob as Prime Minister, you

0:57:510:57:55

never know, Anna is right in once

seven, if we had the ebb website

0:57:550:58:00

seven days a week and all we had was

Jacob Rees-Mogg, this would be

0:58:000:58:04

unrepresentative of what members

think, that you have to have a mix,

0:58:040:58:07

that is why we have Nicky Morgan I

think works closely with Anna,

0:58:070:58:14

Garvin Walsh, a big critic of

Brexit.

Has he been given a big

0:58:140:58:20

platform?

Yes, he does not represent

the majority of Conservative voters

0:58:200:58:29

for sure, his view on abortion are

deeply upsetting and troubling to

0:58:290:58:34

many of us, both women, Conservative

women and men and they don't

0:58:340:58:39

represent Conservative voters or

Conservative members, and that is

0:58:390:58:41

very important.

Has he been given

too much of a platform?

It depends,

0:58:410:58:48

if you are trying to get readers you

will have Nicky Morgan to get up

0:58:480:58:52

your ratings.

On that, on that note

we have to end the show and say

0:58:520:58:56

goodbye, thank do you Anna Soubry

for beings my guest of the day.

0:58:560:58:59

Goodbye.

0:58:590:59:03

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