18/01/2018 Daily Politics


18/01/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland to discuss President Macron's visit to the UK, plus the future of PFI contracts after Carillion's collapse.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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President Macron is hopping over

the Channel to pay a visit

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to Theresa May with the promise

of a loan of the Bayer Tapestry

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and a call for greater

military cooperation.

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We'll assess the strength

of the Entente Cordiale.

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Taxpayers are paying billions

of pounds more for PFI

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projects than they would

if they were in the private

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sector, according to

the National Audit Office,

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so are they a waste of money?

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A deal has been made for hundreds

of thousands of Rohingya refugees

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to start returning to Myanmar,

but with many voicing concerns

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concerns over their safety,

we'll speak to one MP who's visited

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the refugee camps in Bangladesh.

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And fancy becoming an MP?

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As new research shows that,

surprise surprise, not

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many of us fancy it,

we'll look at what can be done

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to encourage more people to say

'vote for me'!

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today

is the journalist and broadcaster,

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Jonathan Freedland.

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Welcome to the show.

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Good to be here.

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Good to be here.

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First this morning, tax payers

will have to pay nearly £200 billion

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more for schemes set up under

Private Finance Initiatives

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than in the public sector according

to the National Audit Office.

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Under the schemes, private companies

build facilities like schools,

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hospitals and roads,

in return for regular payments over

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many years.

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Let's get more on this

with Graham Atkins from

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the Institute for Government.

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Graham, when you look at that figure

from the National Audit Office, £200

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billion more than we would have had

to pay for these things than if they

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were in the public sector, doesn't

that prove that PFIs are a waste of

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money?

I think that figure comes

from payments that are set to be

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made but the thing is that we don't

know how much they would have cost

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in the public sector and the key

point is that under a private

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finance contract, a private finance

company will be set up and that will

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be responsible for the financing,

building and the maintenance and if

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anything goes wrong, they absorb

those losses. They can't absorb

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those losses all of the time, as we

have seen in the case of Carillion.

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Sometimes too much loss -- risk can

be transferred. But what we can't

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see is how much we would have had to

pay if we had taken on those risks.

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So you don't think that PFIs which

started under John Major and were

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really turbo-charged under

successive Labour governments have

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had their day?

I think the

government will continue to use PFIs

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as it does look attractive if you

think the private sector can handle

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the risks better. There is also an

accounting issue in private finance

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and this really important issue is

that when you use private finance,

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as these companies are using the

revenue themselves, these figures

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don't show up in public sector debt

and these figures are used to mark

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targets.

Isn't that a problem?

Gordon Brown was the one who

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famously liked to support these

initiatives because it wouldn't be

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on the government balance sheet, but

is that really a justification for

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carrying on with these sorts of

initiatives?

I don't think it is a

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justification, no. We should only

carry on with Private Finance

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Initiatives better value when

spending on these issues but there

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are measures the government can

take. It can be more transparent

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about comparisons between different

finance options and it is worth

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noting that depending on the measure

of government debt you use, if you

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use the whole of government

finances, for example, some of it is

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on Alan Sheets.

One point wasted

should it really be the point that

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private companies who are

essentially trying to make profits

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are

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are responsible for essential public

sector projects.

I think sometimes

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the profit motive can be helpful in

delivering these projects, in that

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they are incentivised to deliver

them at the lowest possible cost.

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Obviously there is a quality issue,

but I don't think the profit motive

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in itself is enough for us to say

private finance is never worthwhile.

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Jonathan Freedland, the point is,

with these projects have been built

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without PFIs?

As a matter of

politics, they might not have been.

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As you say, this was turbo-charged

in the Tony Blair, Gordon Brown here

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and at the time you had a government

who were so fearful at the politics

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of borrowing, so we would have had

to no longer be allergic to

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borrowing to invest, as Gordon Brown

and John Major work. They were in

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the corset of public spending limits

and didn't feel they could raid to

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invest in schools and hospitals. I

think perhaps the politics of this

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now would feel different.

How

effective would government be at

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running on its own hospitals and

schools? Are we really saying it

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would be efficient in every regard

compared to private companies?

There

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are definitely some really big

projects where the government's

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record is not good, so the NHS IT

scheme, where £12 billion went down

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the drain that. When it comes to

running your local schools, we all

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feel that we remember a time when

that was done and you school dinner

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ladies instead of outside catering,

but they seem to have vanished fine.

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This is an idea which seems to have

expanded almost beyond its reach.

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There is also a fiction in this

article that they are making things

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private which are not actually

private, and Carillion has revealed

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that in the end, the big risk comes

back to the government, in which

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case, why pretend that it doesn't?

If that is the case, the profits are

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privatised and the losses are

nationalised, is it not the case

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that they are not taking on risk,

the private companies?

There are a

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couple of different issues here and

the first is that the risk of

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delivering these projects will

always remain with the government,

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as far as if a company is building a

school array hospital, the

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government will not allow that to

not be delivered. But what happens

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when a company goes bust, it is

important to note that Carillion

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have not been bailed out, it has

been allowed to fail and there may

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be a cost to the taxpayer of finding

any provider or finding somebody to

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run these things, but you cannot say

the losses have been nationalised.

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Isn't it the case that it has been

allowed to fail and is this really

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the watershed moment Jeremy Corbyn

has talked about in terms of

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public-private partnership?

That we

won't know until time has passed a

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bit but the notion is that in the

end we are on the hook for these

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things in that you can't get schools

and hospitals fail. Starbucks goes

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bust, the government will not step

in. But in this situation, where

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they are providing public goods, you

know that in the end the risk is the

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taxpayer, in which case why let the

games be privatised but the losses

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be socialised?

Thank you for coming

in.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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The question for today

is which politician booked to speak

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at a university event was billed

at a student event at UCL as 'like

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hearing Barack Obama in 2003'?

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Was it:

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a) Green Party

co-leader Jonathan Bartley

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b) Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson

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c) UKIP Leader Henry Bolton

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or d) Tory backbencher

Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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At the end of the show,

Jonathan will give us

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the correct answer.

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So the red carpet will be rolled out

for President Macron later this

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afternoon and there's lots

to talk about.

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Not least his offer of a loan of the

bio tapestry. -- Bayeux tapestry.

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Emmanuel Macron and Theresa May are

meeting for an Anglo-French Summit

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at Sandhurst military academy.

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They are expected to focus

on defence and security matters,

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with Theresa May slated to announce

that Britain will send military

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helicopters to join a French

campaign against extremists in north

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Africa.

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-- west Africa.

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And the French President may try

and push the UK to join

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a new European defence initiative -

the European Intervention Initiative

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- aimed at closer integration

of Europe's armed forces.

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The two leaders will also talk

about the migrant crisis in Calais.

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During his presidential

election campaign last year,

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Macron said he wanted to renegotiate

or scrap the 2003 Le Touquet

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agreement which established the UK's

border controls in Calais rather

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than on British soil.

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And the Home Office has confirmed

that Theresa May has

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revised the agreement -

by agreeing to pay the French

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£44.5 million to help

with border security,

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and to take more unaccompanied

children migrants with

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family ties to Britain.

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The French President has been

unashamed in his attempts to lure

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London's financial services

across the Channel and he could

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possibly make a similar pitch

to British business today.

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Let's get more on this with our

Paris Correspondent, Hugh Schofield.

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Has the French president got the

upper hand in this meeting, is he

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riding high? Ah, we seem to have you

frozen at that key moment. We will

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try to go back to him later.

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With me now is the Conservative MP

Crispin Blunt, who was Chair of

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the Foreign Affairs Select Committee

until the last election,

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and Eric Albert, London

Correspondent for Le Monde.

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Welcome to both of you. Delighted

you were here in the studio when

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that happened. Crispin Blunt, has he

played a blinder against the British

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government, Emmanuel Macron? He has

got 44 point £5 million and we get

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the Bayeux tapestry?

I think we also

get the continuation of the border

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under the Le Touquet agreement at

Calais which is very important to us

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and clearly that has created big

challenges for the French and it is

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right that we assist them with those

challenges which protect our

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interests. The bilateral agreement

between France and Britain is going

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to get more important and we will

have to invest in those

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relationships with all-out European

partners in a bilateral way more

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than we did as members. In exit

negotiations, the French will try to

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negotiate to be hard element of

their position through those

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negotiations with the attempt to

undermine the position of the City

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of London.

But should the British

government have given that much

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money? That is a lot of money, 45

million pounds, and your colleagues,

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some of them, are calling it a

stitch up.

Since the Le Touquet

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agreement in 2003 its £150 million

and that shows the size of the

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British interest here in maintaining

the interest that it is. It's a

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sensible subsidy in maintaining the

bilateral arrangement where we have

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a very clear interest in helping the

French manage the challenge they

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have on that side of the channel.

DD

French see this as a win for France?

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It's in the middle, because the

alternative to Britain giving money

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is the border changing side and the

refugees going to go back and

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letting whatever take place in

Dover, which is what President

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Macron said in the election two

years ago. The other part of the

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equation is supposedly Britain

accepting some refugees, which is

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something that has not been very

forthcoming for the last 15 years.

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The government does accept some

refugees but you mean more?

Yes, a

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bit over a year ago, Britain said

they would take at least 3000

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children under 18 with links to

Britain. They have taken 200, less

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than one tenth.

Does Britain have a

responsibility to take certainly the

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number they said they would take,

unaccompanied child migrants from

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the UK? -- into the UK?

What we have

to remember in taking child migrants

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altogether, if you set up the

incentives for unaccompanied

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children to try to make the journey

right across Europe to the United

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Kingdom from the areas they are in

and out of the safe places and the

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states around the conflict area in

Syria, you are inviting a huge

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amount of trouble and you are

creating a situation where the

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amount of money we've got to look

after these children can look after

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ten times as many safely in the

nation is immediately adjacent to

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the conflict zone, keep them safe,

get them ready and educated then to

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go back into Syria. Every child we

accommodate here, that's ten

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children we are not looking after

suitably there.

But should the

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government take in more

unaccompanied children from Calais?

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My view is that we shouldn't. This

money should go towards managing the

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Calais problem. This is a European

Union problem about the management

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of migration across the European

Union.

Isn't that true, that this is

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about the European Union and that

actually Angela Merkel with her open

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door policy provided one of the

incentives, rather than the British

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government taking more?

There is no

doubt that there is some truth in

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here but because of the issue is

that Syria is in trouble, Libya is

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in chaos and Calais has been a

magnet for years and years and years

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for people who want to come to

Britain. To put things in

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perspective, the EU has 700,000

migrant refugees last year, 40,000

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here in Britain. 5%. So although

Calais is impressive because that's

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one place where you can cross, so

you see it, the truth is it's a tiny

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number compared to the overall

thing. So some sharing of

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responsibility by Britain would be

welcome, having said that, I think

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it's a sensible agreement to keep

the border on that side.

No, of

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course, but is Britain shirking its

responsibility?

We can be very proud

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of the contribution we are making to

the support of the rescuing of these

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families and children coming out of

these areas with the massive amount

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of support we are putting into

countries like Jordan and Lebanon

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immediately around the conflict

zone. And that's where the support

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ought to go. Frankly, stealing the

best and brightest of these people

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out of these countries, an element

of which German policy was based on

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meeting their demographic challenge,

doesn't actually do the future of

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Syria and those countries any

favours whatsoever.

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How much of a bone of contention is

between France and Britain? Crispin

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Blunt says the responsibility is to

provide a haven outside but close to

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the countries they fled in Jordan

and Lebanon.

President Macron wants

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a solution to this problem and he

does not want Calais returning to

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the Jungle situation and he thinks

has the stronger hand because

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Britain is in the situation where it

is needed because of the Brexit

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context. So he has the stronger

hands to play.

Is this a microcosm

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of what will happen in the Brexit

negotiations? Britain pays a bit of

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money to get access of favourable

terms.

We need to look at the

0:16:310:16:38

British relationship and the Brexit

negotiations. Within the context of

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the future and what is going to come

through this. The bilateral

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relationship between France and

Britain will get more important to

0:16:460:16:49

both countries posed Brexit and we

need to invest in that, as France

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needs to.

You would not pay more

money to keep their relationship?

So

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the Calais issue, reinforcing the

treaty and making sure we understand

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the difficulties, that is a sensible

part of the relationship between

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France and the UK. We have to get

through the Brexit process and Paris

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and other European cities will

compete for businesses in London and

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we must expect that. Already, there

is an understanding that they are

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not going to deprive London of being

Europe's pre-eminent financial

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centre. And reality will strike

home. About exactly where the

0:17:310:17:37

balance of this relationship will

sit posed Brexit.

Should more money

0:17:370:17:41

be paid to France to repair the port

of Calais and the economy that has

0:17:410:17:46

been damaged as a result of the

Jungle?

What I can save the deal

0:17:460:17:52

that may be announced today, which

appears to be about the £44 million

0:17:520:17:57

going towards more investment in the

immigration infrastructure around

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Calais, that seems the right mark as

far as I'm concerned. The UK

0:18:010:18:07

Government has got that right. M on

-- and taking on the responsibility

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for the Calais economy has to be a

matter for the French government,

0:18:110:18:17

but that is significantly supported

by British tourism going into Calais

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and the more secure the relationship

around Calais, the more confident

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people will have in going and

enjoying time in Calais.

But the

0:18:250:18:29

upper hand hand in the Brexit

negotiations? If you see Emmanuel

0:18:290:18:34

Macron is the centre while Germany

is getting its government together.

0:18:340:18:41

He will not negotiate it

bilaterally. I agree, it will go

0:18:410:18:44

through Europe. So far, it has

helped the EU to have the upper hand

0:18:440:18:51

and I think it will keep going that

way. France is pretty tough on the

0:18:510:18:56

EU negotiations, but Germany is as

well. The two might be slightly

0:18:560:19:01

different, but really, the lines are

exactly the same.

Let's talk about

0:19:010:19:05

the military collaboration. The

Prime Minister is sending chin-ups

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to Western Africa indicating that

she is warming to this idea of

0:19:100:19:14

joining with Emmanuel Macron to

clamp down on terrorism and

0:19:140:19:17

fundamentalism that. Do you support

greater military coordination?

Yes,

0:19:170:19:22

the UK and France similar powers

globally and increasingly, we will

0:19:220:19:27

find we are unable to provide the

capabilities across all of the

0:19:270:19:31

military spectrums and the French

plane may have a shortage in

0:19:310:19:34

strategic lift and helicopter

capacity we are offering them will

0:19:340:19:39

be immensely helpful.

It might allay

fears British defence companies who

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fear they may be left out after

Brexit.

Yes, they want to know we

0:19:430:19:47

continue to be a military power and

power is what we have in common with

0:19:470:19:52

France. And the other thing, this is

one close relationship Brexiteers

0:19:520:19:59

will not mind and if anything,

they're glad Britain is not part of

0:19:590:20:02

any European army. That is something

the motion of a bilateral defence

0:20:020:20:07

relationship, I think they can live

with that, even if the rest of the

0:20:070:20:11

headlines this morning will make

them recoil, the motion of Britain

0:20:110:20:15

after Brexit handing over 45 million

to the French and still under

0:20:150:20:18

pressure to receive migrants. I just

want to challenge Crispin, we have a

0:20:180:20:23

good record and we should be proud

of it. Many of these child migrants

0:20:230:20:27

are refugees from Syria and war

zones. We did not even fulfil our

0:20:270:20:32

obligation to take 3,000, which was

really a tiny number and in the end

0:20:320:20:37

it was 300. That does not make me

feel it is a huge factor to be proud

0:20:370:20:43

of.

That is 30,000 more than they

are looking after in Jordan and

0:20:430:20:48

Lebanon.

If you decide there is a

finite...

If you think we have

0:20:480:20:53

infinite resources.

You could do

more for those 3,000 children.

We're

0:20:530:20:59

not in the same place. We always

give substantial help and sustaining

0:20:590:21:03

support for the international

develop and budget is the challenge.

0:21:030:21:08

The comment at the time said council

said they could not take any more

0:21:080:21:12

child migrants and that was proven

not to be the case -- the

0:21:120:21:15

Government. A number of councils

were still prepared to take more

0:21:150:21:20

child migrants unaccompanied across

Europe.

Presumably, that is

0:21:200:21:24

predicated on the fact they were

going to get central government

0:21:240:21:27

support. Taking children into care

is very expensive.

Migrants is not

0:21:270:21:33

the right word here. You have to do

it properly and look after them

0:21:330:21:37

properly.

Finally, the A&E, is this

an example of the largest -- the

0:21:370:21:45

largesse of the French President in

a charm offensive?

A reminder we had

0:21:450:21:50

been fighting each other for a long

time!

We have not forgotten!

It is

0:21:500:21:55

good if transporting the tapestry is

possible and I'm sure it will be and

0:21:550:22:00

it is great to see it coming years.

It is very good and we have to

0:22:000:22:03

remember there is a quid pro quo as

we have now got the French committed

0:22:030:22:08

very much to a Nato operation and

Hodge troops in support of the work

0:22:080:22:13

we are doing in Estonia and that is

all to the good.

Thank you.

0:22:130:22:16

Later in the programme, I'll be

speaking to Alexandre Holroyd who's

0:22:160:22:19

an MP in President Macron's En

Marche!

0:22:190:22:20

party.

0:22:200:22:21

And for more reporting

and analysis of Brexit,

0:22:210:22:23

check out the BBC News website.

0:22:230:22:25

That's bbc.co.uk/brexit.

0:22:250:22:29

Donald Trump's decision to hold back

half of a $125 million aid

0:22:290:22:31

instalment to Palestine has angered

many in the Middle East

0:22:310:22:38

and at the United Nations, with one

former UN Humanitarian Chief

0:22:380:22:41

claiming the move will have,

"devastating consequences

0:22:410:22:42

for vulnerable Palestinian refugees

across the Middle East".

0:22:420:22:48

So why has he done it?

0:22:480:22:50

Well, at the beginning of the month,

President Trump took

0:22:500:22:52

to Twitter to complain...

0:22:520:22:56

"We pay the Palestinians hundreds

of millions of dollars a year

0:22:560:22:59

and get no appreciation or respect."

0:22:590:23:06

Mr Trump went on to say:

"With the Palestinians no longer

0:23:060:23:11

willing to talk peace,

why should we make any of these

0:23:110:23:13

massive future payments to them?"

0:23:130:23:14

Speaking earlier this week,

US State Department spokesman

0:23:140:23:16

Heather Nauert called for more

countries to give

0:23:160:23:18

money to Palestine.

0:23:180:23:23

This is not aimed at punishing

anyone. The United States government

0:23:230:23:29

and the Trump administration

believed that there should be more

0:23:290:23:32

so-called burden sharing to go

around. United States has been in

0:23:320:23:36

the past largest single donor. We

would like other countries, other

0:23:360:23:42

countries that criticise the United

States for what they believe to be

0:23:420:23:45

our position regarding the

Palestinians, other countries that

0:23:450:23:48

have criticised us to step forward

and actually help to do more.

0:23:480:23:52

I'm joined by James Sorene,

who's the Chief Executive

0:23:520:23:54

of the Israeli campaign group Bicom.

0:23:540:24:01

James, it is not considered a

punishment by the White House and

0:24:010:24:05

Donald Trump, but what else can it

be if they are restricting $65

0:24:050:24:09

million that would have gone to

Palestinian relief?

This week, they

0:24:090:24:13

said they wanted to see reforms of

the way it operates and this has

0:24:130:24:19

been kicked around US politics for a

long time, the US is the largest

0:24:190:24:24

donor. And it is a puzzling

organisation. The United Nations

0:24:240:24:32

relief and Works agency. It is the

only agency in the world exclusively

0:24:320:24:38

for one group of refugees whereas UN

agency deals with refugees around

0:24:380:24:43

the world and trying to resettle and

rehabilitate. The prime sole purpose

0:24:430:24:51

of UNRA is to perpetuate a refugee

problem, it is the only refugee

0:24:510:24:56

organisation that allows you to

inherit refugee status as a

0:24:560:24:58

hereditary title.

Is that what it is

set up to do, to perpetuate a

0:24:580:25:05

refugee problem in the Palestinian

territories?

No, it is true it it is

0:25:050:25:12

this specifically for Palestinians

and it has gone on for 70 years, but

0:25:120:25:15

is not its fault as an agency, it is

because the problem has not been

0:25:150:25:19

addressed. In the years and those

problems -- those people still are

0:25:190:25:23

refugees wherever they are. The

persistence of the problem is the

0:25:230:25:27

issue rather than this persistence

of the agency which hopes to

0:25:270:25:30

alleviate the Palestinian issue,

well, at least deal with those

0:25:300:25:34

people.

$65 million is a lot of

money and it does seem when you read

0:25:340:25:40

the messages from Donald Trump that

it is because he is not appreciated

0:25:400:25:43

enough, is that a big enough

justification to withholding this

0:25:430:25:47

money?

They have given $60 million

and they will freeze the other 65

0:25:470:25:52

until they see changes. It is either

that Trump wants to punish the

0:25:520:25:57

Palestinian Authority, or he wants

reform, or he wants his America

0:25:570:26:00

first bit and say, why should we be

the biggest donors when a lot of

0:26:000:26:05

very Richmond list countries are

giving very little, almost nothing?

0:26:050:26:09

And there is a real issue that you

should be giving the money to those

0:26:090:26:13

with the greatest need. You were

talking about Syrian refugees, we

0:26:130:26:15

need to make sure British taxpayers'

money goes to those refugees and

0:26:150:26:19

there are questions about why a

Jordanian citizen who is a great

0:26:190:26:25

grandson of a Palestinian refugee,

who is a Jordanian citizen receiving

0:26:250:26:29

Jordanian services, why should the

British taxpayer pay for the health

0:26:290:26:34

and education?

Very real questions.

Let's talk about the money Donald

0:26:340:26:37

Trump has withheld. It is true they

are the biggest donor to the

0:26:370:26:41

Palestinians and in 2016, they gave

more than double what the EU

0:26:410:26:44

contributed so why should the US

carried out financial burden?

I

0:26:440:26:48

would have no problem with other

people giving to this agency,

0:26:480:26:52

especially the rich Gulf states but

the United States is often the

0:26:520:26:55

largest single donor to a range of

UN bodies and if you have an issue

0:26:550:27:00

with that, reform it and deal with

those agencies, do not make victims

0:27:000:27:03

of the poorest people in this

situation have nothing to do with

0:27:030:27:06

it. If there is a lack of progress

in the peace process, that is not

0:27:060:27:10

the fault of a child who needs a

school and Doctor in Gaza, you're

0:27:100:27:14

making the suffering of those people

much worse. Even if you do not have

0:27:140:27:19

a moral problem with that, I don't

own some politically is obviously

0:27:190:27:21

the risk is it will radicalise

opinion in those camps, the same

0:27:210:27:25

places where the first and second

problems issued from. You are

0:27:250:27:34

guaranteeing more hardship and more

suffering.

To accept that might be

0:27:340:27:38

the risk?

Those are real issues, but

it is very bloated as an

0:27:380:27:43

organisation with over 30,000 staff,

more than a billion in its budget

0:27:430:27:46

and it does not just provide health

and education. It supports

0:27:460:27:51

micro-finance and other training

which there are real issues, why

0:27:510:27:53

does it still do them? You need to

put the money at those with the

0:27:530:27:58

greatest need. Jonathan Wright

erases those points, though.

Do you

0:27:580:28:02

agree Palestinians will suffer as a

result of this money being held?

At

0:28:020:28:06

the money -- at the moment, they

have given the 60 million and other

0:28:060:28:10

countries potentially will step up

to the plate and that is what the US

0:28:100:28:12

once, it is not in their interest to

see suffering and the Israelis would

0:28:120:28:18

be concerned if there was to be

radicalisation and suffering.

The

0:28:180:28:23

Israelis understood she needed this

agency. From their self-interest,

0:28:230:28:27

just as you need the Palestinian

Authority. To maintain life in those

0:28:270:28:30

places.

Although Benjamin Netanyahu

has said it needs reform. What sort

0:28:300:28:35

of reforms are they talking about?

You could make structural reforms, I

0:28:350:28:41

did not know the figure of 30,000

and there is overstepping, you do

0:28:410:28:44

not deal with that by choking off

funding a stroke. Donald Trump's

0:28:440:28:50

peak that he issued his Jerusalem

Director of recognising Jerusalem as

0:28:500:28:54

the capital of Israel, which had no

previous -- which in no US

0:28:540:29:01

government in 70 years they had ever

done, and he is hurting. Outside the

0:29:010:29:04

Middle East, he uses for an

assistance as a political if he is

0:29:040:29:09

increasing the pressure like he

would have done in Manhattan

0:29:090:29:12

negotiating real estate deals. He

wants to squeeze his opponent, but

0:29:120:29:15

real people suffer and it is no way

to conduct international policy.

Is

0:29:150:29:19

it going to make it more difficult

for the US to be any kind of

0:29:190:29:23

independent arbitrator if there were

peace talks to be revived?

Trump is

0:29:230:29:27

clearly making clear his strategy.

He is trying to rattle the cage and

0:29:270:29:31

he is trying to shake up these kind

of decades long firmament in the

0:29:310:29:40

Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Shake

them around. There is not a peace

0:29:400:29:43

process at the moment, the

Palestinians are not talking to the

0:29:430:29:45

US. But from the US perspective,

they had been taking this can down

0:29:450:29:50

the road for decades. UNRRA and the

Palestinian refugees, Jerusalem, and

0:29:500:29:57

for those who are pro-Islam and for

those who want to face reality, it

0:29:570:30:01

is part of letting Trump be Trump

and shake things up which they

0:30:010:30:05

believe might force for instance the

Palestinian Authority "There is a

0:30:050:30:08

big question, the Americans have

been pushing the Palestinian

0:30:080:30:12

Authority to stop giving support to

terrorists in prisons and their

0:30:120:30:16

families, Dreamweaver and $50

million the Palestinian Authority

0:30:160:30:18

gives to them, maybe he is saying,

show your priorities. If you're

0:30:180:30:22

worried about children and

vaccinations and schools, redirect

0:30:220:30:25

that money.

Thank you for coming in.

0:30:250:30:32

When Labour attack the Government

over the current winter

0:30:320:30:34

crisis affecting the NHS,

Theresa May fires back

0:30:340:30:36

that the situations is, she claims,

a lot worse in Wales under Labour.

0:30:360:30:39

But is this fair?

0:30:390:30:40

This morning, the latest Welsh A&E

figures came out and they show that

0:30:400:30:43

just under 85% of patients spent

less than four hours

0:30:430:30:45

in emergency care.

0:30:450:30:50

The target is 95%.

0:30:500:30:51

What's more, in a letter

to First Minister Carwyn Jones,

0:30:510:30:54

emergency hospital consultants have

claimed safety is being compromised

0:30:540:30:56

"to an unacceptable degree".

0:30:560:30:57

Let's get more from this

with Tomos Morgan, who's

0:30:570:30:59

in Morriston Hospital, in Swansea.

0:30:590:31:07

Welcome to the programme. What are

the latest statistics tell us about

0:31:100:31:13

A&E in Wales?

Well, they tell us

that the situation in December just

0:31:130:31:20

gone is the worst winter holiday

period on record since records began

0:31:200:31:27

in 2009. Just under 80% of patients

being seen within the four-hour time

0:31:270:31:33

frame. Many more patients not being

seen within 12 hours. The worst

0:31:330:31:40

government target for 12 hours --

the Welsh government target for 12

0:31:400:31:44

hours is actually that nobody should

wait that long to be seen but as I

0:31:440:31:48

say, more people are having to wait

for that period. Where I am now,

0:31:480:31:54

Morriston is the worst performing

hospital in A&E for the four-hour

0:31:540:31:58

period. 60% of patients being seen

within that time frame and I spoke

0:31:580:32:02

to the medical director earlier run

and one of the big issues that has

0:32:020:32:06

been over this winter period,

pressure period, has been the influx

0:32:060:32:12

of people coming in with blue

related symptoms and a possible

0:32:120:32:15

suggestion that the situation could

worsen before it gets better.

And

0:32:150:32:20

doctors so concerned they have

written an open letter to the First

0:32:200:32:23

Minister today. What have they said?

I have expressed that their view is

0:32:230:32:30

that the situation in Wales is that

a critical point. One of the

0:32:300:32:35

signatories in particular said it

was at a crisis in Wales,

0:32:350:32:40

chronically under resourced and

underfunded, repairing to Welsh NHS

0:32:400:32:46

and social care in Wales. The letter

calls for an increase in social care

0:32:460:32:50

funding, a review of acute have --

acute-care hospital beds, a change

0:32:500:32:57

in the way Beevor ours is measured

and prioritisation to recruitment

0:32:570:33:01

and retention of staff. The doctors

who have signed that latter have

0:33:010:33:06

felt strongly enough to apologise

themselves for being able to provide

0:33:060:33:11

a safe and efficient emergency

service that they would like to

0:33:110:33:13

provide. The Welsh government have

said in response to the figures

0:33:130:33:17

today and to the letter that they

have increased funding over the

0:33:170:33:21

winter period to 60 million to help

deal with the winter pressures and

0:33:210:33:25

have also said that plans have been

in place but the expectation demand

0:33:250:33:30

has been higher than expected.

Listening to that was born Gethin,

0:33:300:33:36

the health and social services

Secretary in the Welsh government.

0:33:360:33:39

Welcome to the daily politics. That

letter from those consultants said

0:33:390:33:43

that health was compromised to an

unacceptable degree in Wales, the

0:33:430:33:48

worst it's ever been. How does it

feel to be the worst health Minister

0:33:480:33:52

in the UK running the worst national

health service, according to your

0:33:520:33:57

own consultants?

I don't think

that's what they are saying at all,

0:33:570:34:00

with respect. They are talking about

the pressures they face, the

0:34:000:34:04

pressures our patients face, going

through the health system. There is

0:34:040:34:09

no cause for celebration that we are

under so much pressure. This has

0:34:090:34:13

been a record December in the sense

that we have never had so many

0:34:130:34:17

people come to our emergency

departments before, we have never

0:34:170:34:20

seen so many people aged 85 and

over. We have also never seen,

0:34:200:34:25

treated and discharged so many

people before within four hours. It

0:34:250:34:30

shows the number of people coming

through the system. What is

0:34:300:34:33

interesting in the letter from the

emergency department consultant is

0:34:330:34:36

that they recognise that you have to

see health and social care together,

0:34:360:34:40

which is why their best callers for

more money into social care.

Will

0:34:400:34:45

you give more money in social care

spending?

We have increased social

0:34:450:34:50

care spending by 5:4%...

But they

have said it is not enough. They say

0:34:500:34:56

care is being compromised and they

need more resources.

We have

0:34:560:35:01

invested even more in the budget

passed this week. At the government,

0:35:010:35:05

we spent over half our resources on

health and social care, a rate of

0:35:050:35:10

spending rising faster than any

other UK nation. This isn't a lack

0:35:100:35:14

of commitment from the Welsh

government, it is a lack of overall

0:35:140:35:18

resource and that the challenge that

we all face in the United Kingdom.

0:35:180:35:22

But consultants in Wales have taken

this unprecedented step of writing

0:35:220:35:28

this letter and they say that

patient safety is being compromised.

0:35:280:35:32

What do you say to the 3740 patients

he waited more than 12 hours in A&E

0:35:320:35:39

before they were admitted or

discharged when the target time is

0:35:390:35:44

four hours? You are catastrophically

missing your target.

There is a real

0:35:440:35:48

challenge about the number of people

in our system and I don't celebrate

0:35:480:35:53

the fact some people are waiting far

too long. The openness about what

0:35:530:35:56

we're doing as we have recognised

the pressure, planned for winter, we

0:35:560:36:00

have extra beds in our system, --

400 extra beds in our system, and we

0:36:000:36:11

have put £400 million upfront and

then we realised we must do more, so

0:36:110:36:15

put £10 million extra in in January.

We also pressure on GPs as well,

0:36:150:36:22

there -- we also released pressure

on GPs as well, their part in the

0:36:220:36:27

system.

How bad does the crisis had

to be...

I am more than happy to

0:36:270:36:33

meet them and discuss the details in

their letter and discuss honestly

0:36:330:36:38

what we can do.

But you haven't

successfully managed the health

0:36:380:36:45

service, have you, taking into

account that you have, as you said,

0:36:450:36:49

experienced a high number of

patients coming through the doors

0:36:490:36:53

Costa how bad does the crisis have

to be in the Welsh NHS before

0:36:530:36:57

ministers like yourself actually

take response ability and say, it's

0:36:570:37:00

our fault?

I don't shy away from my

responsibility for the health and

0:37:000:37:07

social care system at all. It's also

a recognition of the unprecedented

0:37:070:37:14

pressures. We planned for more

activity in the winter but when you

0:37:140:37:17

have more than 50% increase in New

Year's Eve in a life-threatening

0:37:170:37:24

calls, with respect, you can't plan

for those spikes in demand. Despite

0:37:240:37:29

that, we continue to meet our target

for red ambulance calls, which shows

0:37:290:37:33

that some parts of our system are

holding up. The overall pressure is

0:37:330:37:38

significant. If we want to be able

to deal with what the consultants

0:37:380:37:42

called for, with more capacity in

our health and social care system,

0:37:420:37:45

that requires more resources. If we

stick with the same budget and the

0:37:450:37:50

same austerity coming down from

Westminster, that means significant

0:37:500:37:56

cuts in other public services which

will load more pressure into our

0:37:560:37:59

social care and health system.

You

have been running the health service

0:37:590:38:01

for a number of years. Is it time

for you to apologise to patients in

0:38:010:38:06

Wales for failing to meet these

critical targets for A&E.

I

0:38:060:38:10

recognise that we need to do better

and I have never shied away from

0:38:100:38:14

saying that. I apologise to patients

who have had their care affected and

0:38:140:38:19

to those who don't have the dignity

in care that we would all like to

0:38:190:38:25

see. These problems are not unique

to Wales. What we have to day within

0:38:250:38:29

Wales is take response ability for

our part of the system, the choices

0:38:290:38:32

we make about money with the put

into the system, the decisions we

0:38:320:38:37

have made about trying to keep

people out of hospital and helping

0:38:370:38:43

more people to get out. We need to

do more to get people out of

0:38:430:38:50

hospital to wear the right place for

their care and treatment is no

0:38:500:38:55

longer a hospital bed. That is a

focus for us here in Wales.

Thank

0:38:550:38:58

you very much.

0:38:580:39:02

Earlier this week, a deal was struck

between the Bangladesh and Myanmar

0:39:020:39:05

governments to repatriate hundreds

of thousands of Rohingya

0:39:050:39:07

who fled Myanmar following

a crackdown by the military.

0:39:070:39:09

Whilst both countries have pledged

the return will be voluntary,

0:39:090:39:12

aid agencies have expressed fears

for the safety of those

0:39:120:39:14

who leave the camps.

0:39:140:39:15

Here's Elizabeth Glinka, with more.

0:39:150:39:17

The Rohingya are a Muslim minority

in a country defined by its Buddhist

0:39:170:39:24

faith. Until last year, there were

1.3 million Muslims living in

0:39:240:39:29

wrecking state, a coastal region in

the west of mayhem. The Rohingya

0:39:290:39:32

have their own language and culture,

many of them descendants from what

0:39:320:39:44

was then British run India to work

on their land in the 19th century.

0:39:440:39:50

That led to growing tensions with

local Buddhists in the 20th century,

0:39:500:39:58

fearing their country was under

threat. When the military jumps to

0:39:580:40:04

control, the rights of the Muslim

population were eroded. They are not

0:40:040:40:10

recognised as citizens of man Mark

and I habitually framed as outsiders

0:40:100:40:17

and... In 2012, more than 100,000

Rohingya Muslims were rounded up and

0:40:170:40:27

putting to internment camps. The

latest exodus began in August last

0:40:270:40:31

year when they were attacked by

police. The government retaliated

0:40:310:40:36

with what they called... Medecins

Sans Frontieres said that in the

0:40:360:40:47

months after the clearances, nearly

7000 people including children were

0:40:470:40:52

killed. Amnesty International

reported widespread sexual violence

0:40:520:40:55

by the military against Rohingya

women and girls, while the military

0:40:550:40:59

-- Irma government claimed the

campaign was at the end, refugees

0:40:590:41:06

continued to flee over the border

into Bangladesh where 700,000

0:41:060:41:10

Rohingya now live in the world's

largest refugee camp. The United

0:41:100:41:15

Nations describes the military

campaign as a textbook example of

0:41:150:41:17

ethnic cleansing.

With me now is Labour MP

0:41:170:41:28

With me now is Labour MP

0:41:280:41:32

MP Rosina Alin Khan,

0:41:320:41:33

who's visited the refugee

camps in Bangladesh.

0:41:330:41:35

I went there as a medical doctor, in

that capacity, and so that I could

0:41:350:41:43

speak about it when I came back.

I

was shocked. I met people who had

0:41:430:41:49

seen their husbands mutilated, who

themselves had been gang raped, who

0:41:490:41:55

had had their own babies thrown onto

fires and who had had to choose

0:41:550:41:59

whether they try to save their

babies or escape with the children

0:41:590:42:04

they had.

Is this ethnic cleansing

in your mind?

No, I am calling this

0:42:040:42:11

a genocide. Ethnic cleansing isn't

even a crime under humanitarian law

0:42:110:42:16

and quite frankly what I have seen

is an atrocity and it is genocide.

0:42:160:42:20

How long were you there for?

I was

there for a total of five days. It

0:42:200:42:26

was a fact -- a packed trip. I slept

for about two hours in total, I

0:42:260:42:33

worked in the clinics, I went

throughout the camps with Christian

0:42:330:42:35

Aid to see what they were doing and

I met people fleeing over the

0:42:350:42:39

border.

The pictures are shocking

when you look at them fleeing over

0:42:390:42:45

into Bangladesh, but when you spoke

to survivors, were they expressing

0:42:450:42:51

any interest in returning to

Myanmar?

They were saying they would

0:42:510:42:56

only be willing to return to their

homeland if they could be guaranteed

0:42:560:43:00

security. They fled with the clothes

on their back. They left everything

0:43:000:43:05

and they are frightened to death of

going back because they know, as I

0:43:050:43:09

do, that if they were to be forcibly

repatriated, they would be going

0:43:090:43:14

back to their deaths.

What do you

think of the plans to repatriate

0:43:140:43:18

Rohingya into Myanmar?

What we are

hearing that is that if you tell

0:43:180:43:25

people who have been pushed out that

the solution is to go back and face

0:43:250:43:28

their killers and torturers and

tormentors, that doesn't feel like

0:43:280:43:31

any kind of solution at all. There

would have to be some kind of

0:43:310:43:35

radical change in that country for

them to feel safe to go back to the

0:43:350:43:39

very place where we have been

hearing families were burned to

0:43:390:43:45

death, raped and brutalised. This is

being put out a some kind of

0:43:450:43:48

solution and I'm sure to the people

concerned it doesn't feel like that

0:43:480:43:52

at all.

But is it sustainable for

them to stand Bangladesh which is

0:43:520:43:55

already struggling?

Bangladesh has

opened its borders and it's hard but

0:43:550:44:01

22% about a day she's already live

below the poverty line. Our

0:44:010:44:05

government are doing a great job of

supporting the Bangladeshis with

0:44:050:44:09

financial resources, but actually we

need to make sure that we target

0:44:090:44:15

Myanmar and we call it out and that

people who have been responsible for

0:44:150:44:19

these heinous crimes are taken to

the International Criminal Court. I

0:44:190:44:24

have met with Foreign Office

officials who have explained to me

0:44:240:44:27

how deeply complex it is on the

ground. Look, Bangladesh do need

0:44:270:44:33

support, that is given. But we

cannot, absolutely cannot send

0:44:330:44:37

people back to their deaths.

What

has been the reception from the

0:44:370:44:41

Foreign Office about this mounting

pressure you feel should be put on

0:44:410:44:44

Myanmar?

I have been met with a

variety of responses. I was very

0:44:440:44:50

disappointed that openly in a debate

I asked Boris Johnson to meet with

0:44:500:44:54

me and he said he was too busy and I

should write him a letter. I wrote

0:44:540:44:58

him a letter which he didn't even

respond to. I have met with Minister

0:44:580:45:02

Field who was helpful, but the

Foreign Office officials I have

0:45:020:45:06

spoken to are working incredibly

hard but do explain how complex it

0:45:060:45:08

is on the ground. Quite frankly, our

government are not doing enough at

0:45:080:45:17

this point.

What could they do?

Isn't this an international

0:45:170:45:19

response, not the UK Government on

their own?

0:45:190:45:24

Aung San Suu Kyi does have an

affinity with Britain and the

0:45:240:45:28

condemnation you are looking for

from the British Government for

0:45:280:45:31

Herbie the de facto leader of this

country who has not done anything,

0:45:310:45:34

it seems, to stop this when it was

happening and to put pressure on

0:45:340:45:38

her, I think Britain does have

leverage here. In most places, it

0:45:380:45:42

has to be admitted a voice from

Britain does not cut but not eyes,

0:45:420:45:47

but in this particular case, because

of her links to this country, it

0:45:470:45:50

would mean something.

But I hear

what you say. You going to go back?

0:45:500:45:54

Yes.

When? I am working out where to

go because I want an objective to

0:45:540:46:01

meet. So I am working out the

correct time, but I want to go back

0:46:010:46:04

in the next couple of months because

I think it is really important we

0:46:040:46:08

keep the pressure up. And the

British public have a track record

0:46:080:46:13

of being kind, generous,

compassionate and brave. And we need

0:46:130:46:17

to stand collectively, cross-party

on this. I'd call this out for what

0:46:170:46:20

it is. If we are allowing this to

happen, were next in the world? We

0:46:200:46:26

need to stand up and proudly say, as

the British community, that this is

0:46:260:46:30

wrong.

Q.

Thank you.

0:46:300:46:34

Who would be an MP?

0:46:340:46:35

Not many of us, it seems.

0:46:350:46:37

New research - from

the University of Bath -

0:46:370:46:39

has found that just one in ten

people would ever think

0:46:390:46:41

about becoming an MP,

and those who do are more likely

0:46:410:46:44

to be male, highly educated and live

in the South of England.

0:46:440:46:48

They found that: Just over 14%

of men have considered standing.

0:46:480:46:51

Which is more than double the 6.5%

of women who have thought about it.

0:46:510:46:54

Roughly 14% of people classed

as highly educated think

0:46:540:46:56

of putting themselves forward.

0:46:560:47:02

Compared to just under 5%

with a low level of education.

0:47:020:47:07

And the disparity in political

ambition also shows up as one looks

0:47:070:47:09

up and down the income ladder,

with 23% of those who earn over

0:47:090:47:13

£100,000 having thought about it,

compared to only 9%

0:47:130:47:15

who earn below £10,000.

0:47:150:47:22

So, does it really matter who

harbours dreams of elected office?

0:47:220:47:25

I'm joined by Layla Moran

and Gillian Keegan,

0:47:250:47:28

both new MPs from 2017.

0:47:280:47:34

Welcome to the programme. You were

brave and decided you would put

0:47:350:47:38

yourself forward, why?

For me, it

was about education. I am a teacher

0:47:380:47:42

and my background and I got

passionate about trying to change

0:47:420:47:46

the education system. I realised to

do that it is better to be in

0:47:460:47:50

government and make that pays. And I

chose a party, so I decided I wanted

0:47:500:47:54

to be an MP and then compared policy

to what would work and joined the

0:47:540:47:58

Liberal Democrats.

So you did not

have a political affinity

0:47:580:48:00

beforehand?

Absolutely not. I had

voted, and considered voting mainly

0:48:000:48:08

Labour, my dad would kill me if I

voted Tory! But I have not really

0:48:080:48:13

had a strong party affiliations, it

came later.

That is interesting

0:48:130:48:18

because there is usually a party

affinity, have you always been a

0:48:180:48:21

Conservative?

Yes, unusually, I'd

grew up in Knowsley in Merseyside

0:48:210:48:26

and there were not many

Conservatives so I really had to

0:48:260:48:29

think about it. I would not describe

myself as political, but come out

0:48:290:48:33

with a different answer to those

around you, you have had to think

0:48:330:48:37

about it. I always voted

Conservative and I never considered

0:48:370:48:40

becoming an MP, I did it because

somebody asked me to. Baroness Anne

0:48:400:48:45

Jenkin, and I met her in the theatre

in London in the interval. So

0:48:450:48:49

beware, these people are everywhere!

She did well in a short space of

0:48:490:48:53

time to persuade you!

She goes out

looking for, the Conservative Party

0:48:530:48:57

recognise they want to be more

diverse and they deliberately look

0:48:570:49:00

for people. For me, I have a working

class background, I am from

0:49:000:49:05

Liverpool comprehensive school and

did an apparent ship at 16, normal

0:49:050:49:08

jobs. And a Conservative. And she

just randomly said, there is a

0:49:080:49:15

campaign which is quite affected

because quite often, women do need

0:49:150:49:21

an extra push.

What was the reaction

from people around you?

They cannot

0:49:210:49:27

believe it's because I had gone on

to have a successful business career

0:49:270:49:31

and I think my parents are still

shocked I have taken a successive --

0:49:310:49:36

successful business career where

everybody respected me to something

0:49:360:49:39

where people think I am the enemy

who is coming into it for self

0:49:390:49:43

serving purposes and I am earning

way times more than I ever could in

0:49:430:49:47

any other profession. You do not get

that well regarded. And that is

0:49:470:49:52

possibly part of what puts people

off.

I was not that surprised by the

0:49:520:49:56

figures. One in ten. Did it surprise

you, did you think there were so

0:49:560:50:01

many more people?

No, I thought one

in ten was a lot of people, where

0:50:010:50:05

are they? And I would encourage them

to consider it. Now I am in, and I

0:50:050:50:11

still pinch myself, I really do. But

I do believe that a lot of people

0:50:110:50:15

will have the skills to do a really

great job and it is very clear that

0:50:150:50:19

when I look across the house, and I

am sorry, it is older men who are

0:50:190:50:23

white, still predominately, we need

the other voices, it really makes a

0:50:230:50:27

huge difference. To all those people

thinking about doing it, do it,

0:50:270:50:31

don't just think about it!

So it is

key to broaden further and much more

0:50:310:50:35

swiftly the make-up of the house?

Absolutely and every political party

0:50:350:50:39

can do better, needs to do better.

They celebrate that this is the most

0:50:390:50:44

diverse Parliament ever, it is still

nowhere near good enough. We need to

0:50:440:50:47

go out and we need to ask people to

do it. They need encouragement to

0:50:470:50:52

realise, yes, you can. You have the

skills, you will be great, come

0:50:520:50:55

along and do it.

What put you off?

You said you were persuaded by Anne

0:50:550:51:00

Jenkin, what might have put you off

going for it?

You have to put

0:51:000:51:05

yourself through the ropes to get

there. I stood in Merseyside where I

0:51:050:51:09

am from, so going round the streets

of Saint Helens with a blue rosette,

0:51:090:51:13

you know whether you want to do it

afterwards! It really does allow you

0:51:130:51:18

to test... Resilience! Yes, and

whether you are used to that,

0:51:180:51:25

because people are quite abusive

sometimes. But the majority are not,

0:51:250:51:28

most people are apolitical and not

that political. I would not know if

0:51:280:51:35

they are floating voters in that

area, but they certainly, they are

0:51:350:51:39

not really, politics is not at the

front of their minds.

Has it been

0:51:390:51:45

what you have expected?

Interesting

question. My seat was so marginal

0:51:450:51:47

and so far of being one at the last

election, Oxford West and Abingdon,

0:51:470:51:54

we were 9,500 behind and I won by

around 800, so very close. It has

0:51:540:52:01

been extraordinary and it is so

worth being here. You can raise big

0:52:010:52:05

issues, you often saying things

nobody else is saying and it can

0:52:050:52:09

slowly move things in the right

direction. So cynics who say there

0:52:090:52:12

is no point in being here, I

completely disagree, it is worth

0:52:120:52:17

being here.

2017 was a surprise

election, and it has heralded in a

0:52:170:52:22

different House of Commons which

different elections do, but even

0:52:220:52:26

more so because people rushed into

standing for office.

Yes, and not

0:52:260:52:30

always with a happy outcome, we have

two success stories here but

0:52:300:52:34

candidates came in whom had not been

vetted correctly like Jared O'Mara.

0:52:340:52:42

Remarks also about vasectomy is

which perhaps if he had gone round a

0:52:420:52:45

couple of states like you did, he

would not have done that! Your

0:52:450:52:50

experience as a teacher is

interesting, and we heard earlier

0:52:500:52:53

from a former doctor and it is often

people who feel frustrated and

0:52:530:52:57

they've feel they need to get their

weavers onto some big change and go

0:52:570:53:03

into government.

The Parliament.

Finally, political heroes?

Winston

0:53:030:53:08

Churchill is mine.

Mine is Shirley

Williams, partly because as a woman,

0:53:080:53:14

she had the steely determination and

she was also kind and compassionate

0:53:140:53:17

and she was able to marry the two

and that is extraordinary.

Thank you

0:53:170:53:21

both.

Thank you.

0:53:210:53:24

Let's get more now on President

Macron's visit to the UK.

0:53:240:53:27

Speaking in Downing Street a year

ago, before he became President,

0:53:270:53:30

Mr Macron was very open

about encouraging people

0:53:300:53:31

to move to France.

0:53:310:53:34

I reaffirm my willingness best to

have direct execution of the Brexit.

0:53:340:53:40

To defend French and European

interests in that, in such an

0:53:400:53:45

execution. In my programme, you will

have a series of initiatives to get

0:53:450:53:49

talented people in research in a lot

of fields working here and coming to

0:53:490:53:53

France. I was very happy to see that

some academics and researchers

0:53:530:53:57

because of the Brexit would consider

the Konta France to work, and it

0:53:570:54:04

will be part of my programme to be

attractive for this type of people.

0:54:040:54:08

President Macron one.

0:54:080:54:10

Let's speak to Alexandre

Holroyde, who's an MP

0:54:100:54:12

for President Macron's En Marche!

party.

0:54:120:54:14

Welcome back, how successful has

France been in attracting these

0:54:140:54:19

businesses and people from London to

Paris?

It is not a question of

0:54:190:54:24

attracting people from London to

Paris. That is what he said. It is

0:54:240:54:28

just attracting people to Paris. In

the last eight months since the 18th

0:54:280:54:32

of June when the majority came to

power is profoundly reform our

0:54:320:54:35

Labour markets, our tax system, the

training programmes in France so

0:54:350:54:42

that we can make France incredibly

attends -- attractive to end -- when

0:54:420:54:48

it anybody, investors in Hong Kong

or the UK. I am sure President

0:54:480:54:54

Macron would have said the same

thing about New York.

This is

0:54:540:54:59

trained to your financial services,

rightly or wrongly, from London,

0:54:590:55:01

which has been seen as the main

financial centre, while you been shy

0:55:010:55:07

about it?

I am not being shy, I am

very open that we are trying to

0:55:070:55:12

attract financial services and also

companies and investments and

0:55:120:55:15

research and students.

As Brexit the

opportunity for you to mount that

0:55:150:55:21

campaign further, to take advantage

of the situation with the

0:55:210:55:25

negotiations with Britain?

The real

challenge is unrelated to Brexit, it

0:55:250:55:29

is reforming and conducting through

a really ambitious transformation

0:55:290:55:32

programme in France. Who has a

number of problems which have not

0:55:320:55:35

been addressed in the last three

decades and we are addressing one by

0:55:350:55:38

one to make it as attractive as

possible.

Call me a cynic, many

0:55:380:55:44

people do, but the A&E and generous

offer from Emmanuel Macron, what

0:55:440:55:47

does he want in return?

It is not a

question of return. We have an

0:55:470:55:54

incredibly close relationship

between France and the UK which is

0:55:540:55:58

independent from the EU. It is an

incredibly close relationship in

0:55:580:56:02

defence and also in cultural

exchanges. We have a great programme

0:56:020:56:06

for future leaders which has been

launched last year, we have an

0:56:060:56:10

amazing amount of twinning between

cities in France and the UK and

0:56:100:56:13

these initiatives, we think they

should be pushed further, so that is

0:56:130:56:16

what we are doing and Bayeux

Tapestry is part of cultural

0:56:160:56:19

exchange because it is shared

history.

It is also part of Macron's

0:56:190:56:25

method and he is very effective, to

be tough with one hand, so with

0:56:250:56:29

Trump, he gave him a hard handshake

with one and with the other, he

0:56:290:56:33

invites him for Bastille Day and has

a visit in the way that Theresa May

0:56:330:56:38

has not been able to and he does

that effectively. He has been tough

0:56:380:56:41

with Theresa May about Calais and

getting wonderful headlines for this

0:56:410:56:44

gift of the Bayeux Tapestry.

It

seems Macron is rather good at

0:56:440:56:50

statehood, and he is rather young,

but he is proving he knows how to

0:56:500:56:54

get this good cup and bad cup game

going and he has done it again with

0:56:540:56:59

us and the Bayeux Tapestry.

Why

should Britain bond or pay for

0:56:590:57:02

improvements to the economy in

Calais which President Acra one

0:57:020:57:07

thing is has been damaged by the

migrant issue?

The agreement which

0:57:070:57:11

oversees the board it in Calais and

the French border in Dover, it has

0:57:110:57:18

been discussed and adapted over the

years because the challenges have

0:57:180:57:20

changed.

But this is over and above

the agreement, this was to go

0:57:200:57:26

towards funding.

This is a shared

challenge, a shared problem that we

0:57:260:57:31

have together that we have a border

on sides. If you think of networks

0:57:310:57:36

of criminals who are using this

crisis the traffic people over the

0:57:360:57:42

Channel, we need both countries to

work hand-in-hand. That involves

0:57:420:57:46

commitment from both countries

security wise and on both sides of

0:57:460:57:49

the Channel.

What would you like

Stallone to you as a gift in return

0:57:490:57:52

for the Bayeux Tapestry, at a

cultural level # -- what would you

0:57:520:57:57

like to be loaned to you.

I don't

know, we will wait for a gesture. I

0:57:570:58:01

am sure we would be delighted to

have anything sharing the fantastic

0:58:010:58:05

new Xeon is all over.

That is a mean

question! Sorry.

0:58:050:58:09

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:090:58:13

The question was:

0:58:130:58:15

Which politician, booked to speak

at a student event at UCL,

0:58:150:58:17

was billed as 'like hearing

Barack Obama in 2003'?

0:58:170:58:20

Was it:

0:58:200:58:21

A) Green Party co-leader

Jonathan Bartley?

0:58:210:58:22

B) Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson?

0:58:220:58:24

C) Ukip Leader Henry Bolton?

0:58:240:58:27

Or, D) Tory backbencher

Jacob Rees-Mogg?

0:58:270:58:29

So, Jonathan, what's

the correct answer?

0:58:290:58:35

By process of illumination, I am

going to guess and the only one who

0:58:350:58:38

seems to have a future ahead of her

is Jo Swinson.

Well done, your

0:58:380:58:43

powers of deduction have worked

well, it is in fact Jo Swinson.

0:58:430:58:46

Despite that ambitious billing to be

like Barack Obama!

0:58:460:58:51

That's all for today.

0:58:510:58:52

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:520:58:55

Andrew will be on BBC One tonight.

0:58:550:58:59

And I'll be here again

at noon tomorrow.

0:58:590:59:02

Bye-bye.

0:59:020:59:03

Jo Coburn is joined by Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland. They discuss President Macron's visit to the UK - the first since he was elected.

Also includes discussion on the future of PFI contracts after Carillion's collapse.


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