22/01/2018 Daily Politics


22/01/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Maria Caulfield and Labour MP Paul Williams. They discuss calls from the head of the army for more funding.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Pressure mounts on the defence

budget with the head of the army now

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warning the UK's ability to defend

itself "will be eroded if we don't

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keep up with our adversaries".

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We'll assess if Britain's

security is at risk.

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Ukip leader Henry Bolton is refusing

to resign despite the party's

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governing body calling for him

to do so.

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So what next for the party?

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Could the NHS receive a funding

boost once we leave the EU?

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We'll look at whether calls

for increased health spending

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following Brexit are realistic.

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And we'll speak to one woman

who claims the Me Too

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movement has gone too far.

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The quest to right the wrongs of the

past, the Me Too movement has become

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overwhelming and dangerous. It has

developed a McCarthyite edge.

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All that coming up.

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And if any of the crew or myself

fall ill in the next hour

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we're in very good hands,

because I'm pleased to say we have

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two highly experienced medical

practitioners in the studio.

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Registered nurse and now

Conservative MP Maria Caulfield

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and Labour's Paul Williams,

who still practises as a GP.

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Welcome to the programme.

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Well, what better way to start today

than look at the NHS.

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According to reports over

the weekend, Boris Johnson

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is amongst a number of senior

ministers calling for the government

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to pledge an extra 100 million

a week to the NHS once we've

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left the EU.

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So, is this feasible?

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Do you support that?

I would welcome

any additional funding to the NHS.

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This government has put in extra

money and we have seen £437 million

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going to cope with the winter

crisis. In my two local hospitals

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they got under £2 million each to

deal with this pressure so extra

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money is always welcome.

He is

saying £100 million. Are you

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disappointed it is not more. The

implication in the vote to leave

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campaign it would be £350 million a

week.

There are competing priorities

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for spending. We will hear today

about defence budgets and the

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argument for why we should be

spending more on that. But for me,

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my experience of working in the NHS,

it is not only how much money

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it is not only how much money you

are putting in the system, it is how

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the system works. We are starting to

see help and social care coming

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together now. In my local area, that

has transformed the experience.

But

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you accept there have been certain

cases, a crisis?

Some parts of the

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country have definitely coped better

than others. In my area social care

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and health care came together and

reduced delayed discharges so that

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freed up beds. The hospital could

cope with an 11% spike in the

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admissions. In my view, until health

and social care comes together, it

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does not matter how much money you

put into the system, it is about the

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system itself.

Paul, you work in the

NHS. If it as bad

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NHS. If it as bad as the headline

suggests?

I was thinking about this

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question last night when I was

working in the local urgent care

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centre in Stockton on Tees. At the

moment we do not have fully

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integrated health and social care. I

was one of a group of MPs who wrote

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to the Prime Minister offering to

take some of this away from the

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bashing you get in front line

politics but it is not just about

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health and social care. It is about

competition. We still have a problem

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where we are trying to integrate

services and reduce some of these

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organisational boundaries between

hospitals and community services,

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and we still have mandatory

competition in the NHS. We also not

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doing enough in terms of prevention.

We need to move the services out

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into the community but we have seen

in the last eight years and massive

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reduction in the number of district

nurses and community nurses.

Paul

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mentions this letter which was

signed by 90 cross-party MPs. Why

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did you not sign it?

I don't think a

cross-party commission is the way

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forward. We know what needs to be

done. I welcome the move in a

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reshuffle where Theresa May has

brought health and social care into

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one department. The question I want

to ask is will the money followed

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that? Will we still use local

authorities as the provider for

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social care. The fundamental shift

for health and social care coming

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together is starting to happen.

She

has written that in the title but it

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could just be symbolic. Would you

like to see someone like Maria

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signed the letter for cross-party

work?

I think it would be helpful.

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We have this problem where we fund

the NHS nationally, but social care

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is organised locally, and also, we

need social care and we need to find

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a way, as our population gets older,

as we build our out of hospital

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services, we need to find a

sustainable way of funding it, and

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we need to find a way that is not

just attacking each other's policies

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all the time and we need a Mitchell

conversation with the public.

Do you

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agree that housing, environment and

education are the three most

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important issues for this

government, is that right?

No, there

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are discussions around policy areas,

and the NHS is one of those.

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Of course, housing is an important

area, and so was environment, but

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there is no question that the NHS

won't be a top agenda item.

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Apparently Gavin Barwell has said

the Conservatives should not bother

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with the NHS, Labour always wins. A

focus group says it is a lost

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electoral cause. Do you think that

is the case?

That is not something I

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have heard. You can see the

government is making huge inroads

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into outcomes. If you look at cancer

survival rates, they are improving

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greatly. If you look at MRSA, that

is not the big problem it was a few

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years ago. We have got rid of mixed

sex wards. Often we focus on the

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negatives that some of the health

outcomes are drastically improving.

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Do you accept that and that actually

the NHS was better prepared which is

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what the Prime Minister has said,

even though this winter has been

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very tough.

This winter was no

surprise and I don't think the NHS

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has been adequately prepared. If you

ask many of the children who are

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struggling with mental health

problems, whether you think our

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health service is doing a good

enough job, when the

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enough job, when the government's

ambition is only a third of them get

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treatment instead of the 25% who

currently get treatment, I think

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they will say that there is a lot

more that could be done in the NHS.

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How much money would solve the NHS

funding crisis?

It has got to be

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about health and social care

together.

How much?

The Labour Party

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pledged that £37 billion extra into

the NHS.

Would that be enough?

It is

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never enough! There is an insatiable

appetite in this country for health

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care. What is clear is in the first

62 years of the NHS was Mac

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existence, on average the growth was

4% but in real terms it has only

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been 1%. This is a deliberate

political decision to restrain the

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amount of money for the NHS.

What

you say to that? Jeremy Hunt has

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called for a long-term funding

settlement.

I would agree that a

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10-year settlement is much more

suitable. We need to take politics

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and the political cycle out of the

NHS so NHS managers can make

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long-term plans. It is not just

about the money. If you look in

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Wales where labour are in charge,

there is an 8% greater amount of

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money spent per head of population,

and yet they are still having the

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problems of ambulances queueing

around the blocks and patients being

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treated in corridors. It is the

money that is

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money that is being spent.

And they

had a letter written to the Labour

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run government complaining about a

lack of funding in Wales. So the

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money is still not enough. If it

ever enough?

We have got to get the

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right strategy and that has got to

involve prevention. It has got to

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involve taking services away from

hospitals and building really good

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community and health care services.

It has got to be done in an

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environment where we are not

encouraging organisations to compete

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with each other. We are not worrying

about private sector involvement and

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the things we have learned from the

Carillion scandal. We need to have

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collaboration and that will involve

us taking competition out of the

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NHS.

Do you think it was helpful to

say it was disappointing not to get

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a positive response to cross-party

work and warned his party would get

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a reality check. Heidi Allen said

the response was not good enough and

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Sarah will list and called on the

Prime Minister to reconsider. --

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Sarah Wollaston.

Colleagues are

entitled to write to the Prime

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Minister and give their views. My

opinion is a cross-party commission

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will only tell us what we already

know and we need to get on with the

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job. That is what Jeremy Hunt is

doing. We have a health and social

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care Department. In my local area we

have opened up new community beds in

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New Haven and that has stopped

people who do not need to go into

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hospital but are not ready to be at

home to stay in community beds, and

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to enable delayed discharges to get

out and free up beds for acute

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admissions and that works. We don't

need to talk about it, we need to

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get on and deliver it.

Lets leave it

there.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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The question for today is Cabinet

Office Minister David Lidington has

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confirmed what will NOT happen

to mark the moment the UK

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leave the EU next year?

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Was it...

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The White Cliffs of

Dover will be lit up...

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Big Ben will chime...

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Street parties...

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Or the pub licensing

hours will be extended?

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At the end of the show Maria

and Paul will give us

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the correct answer.

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The crisis in Ukip is deepening.

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Today three more key figures

in the party have resigned,

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over their leader, Henry Bolton's

refusal to resign.

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Yesterday the party's NEC

backed a motion of no

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confidence in Mr Bolton,

but he is hanging on,

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and so party members

will now vote on his future.

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Mr Bolton has been under immense

pressure after it was revealed

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that his now former girlfriend made

racist comments

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about Prince Harry's fiancee Meghan

Markle.

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She's apologised and said

they were taken of context.

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Yesterday on the Sunday Politics,

Henry Bolton was asked

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by Sarah Smith why

he's refusing to go.

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It's going to disrupt us. It will

take three to five months of a

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refocusing on that election, it will

take us off the battlefield for the

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Brexit debate. We cannot afford to

do that politically. At the same

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time, the infighting that will

result will give our political

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enemies more than enough ammunition

to pull the party apart. In fact, if

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the NEC makes the wrong decision

today, the party will start doing

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that itself. Politically, this party

cannot afford to have a leadership

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election now.

Just to be clear,

regardless of whether the NEC vote

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no confidence, you will stay on as

party leader and you will have some

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contact with Jo Marney?

I will have

some contact.

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We can speak to Ukip MEP

Gerard Batten who was

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the party's Brexit Spokesman

but who resigned yesterday.

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They are dropping like flies. The

party is collapsing.

The party is

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not collapsing because they are

staying with Ukip. They say Henry

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should go. Mrs Thatcher, even when

she had far more support in the Tory

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party and then he has got, she

decided the game was up and decided

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to resign. I am afraid he is not

facing reality. We have been very

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generous to Henry. We are not

getting into discussions about his

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private life. The whole thing has

got worse

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got worse with the revelations you

are talking about, tweets and

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e-mails, and he has not been able to

shut this down and control it. That

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is why he has got to go because he

is not managing the situation.

It is

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all the resignations which has kept

this story in the headlines. Jo

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Marney has apologised. Henry Bolton

said they are no longer romantically

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linked but they are still in

contact, and yet this crisis rumbles

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on.

These people did not resign

until yesterday with the unanimous

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vote by the NEC that they could not

support him. I thought he might have

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some support among the NEC but once

they listened to him, and points of

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view were exchanged, and the meeting

went on for three hours, they

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decided to vote unanimously. He does

not have the support of key people

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in the party and he has got to go.

But he is hanging on.

Does he want

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to be the man who goes down in

history as the man who destroyed

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Ukip?

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Ukip? If we don't resolve this, our

activists, candidates, donors, or

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the key people who make the party

run will be disillusioned and walk

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away.

You think this could mark the

end of Ukip if Henry Bolton refuses

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to step down?

If this is attracted.

We have 28 days and to the EGM. If

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the EGM endorses the National

executive committee and he still

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refuses to go, we have to have a

leadership election. Indeed if he

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goes, we have to have a leadership

election but we could put in an

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interim leader to steady the party

through the local election period. I

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offered my services as did Mike

Hookem. Neither of us have ambitions

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to be leader but we are prepared to

step in and guide the party through

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the difficult period.

You say this

is a crisis which could end with the

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collapsing of the party if Henry

Bolton doesn't take the action you

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think you need to do, but there have

been seven leaders. Surely Ukip have

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already -- are already in crisis?

We

have been written off more times

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than Count Dracula. The people who

make up this party are motivated by

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genuine belief in making our country

and independent sovereign nation

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again and we are the only people who

fulfil that market segment, if you

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like. The Conservative Party doesn't

really want to leave, the Labour

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Party doesn't seem to know what its

policy of anyway and we are the only

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people who have been consistent over

25 years about leaving the European

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Union and restoring our country as

an independent democratic nation

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state.

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What about the membership? We had

29%. Let us say gets all of his

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support turning out and they vote

for him to stay, will you accept

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that? Well, yes, if they vote to

keep him, but I don't see that

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happening. What I hear from our head

office is about, and this was before

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the meeting on Sunday, 90% of the

communications were against Henry,

0:16:110:16:15

with about 10 for, I have had

literally dozens and hundreds of

0:16:150:16:21

e-mail, text, phone calls from

people asking me, you know, is he

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going to go is this we need to move

on and he needs to resign. I don't

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think he has much support among the

ordinary members. You don't think he

0:16:280:16:34

will win that vote. You say you

don't have ambitions to be leader.

0:16:340:16:39

Henry Bolton said it will end the

party if there is another leadership

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contest.

It will end the party if he stay, he

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is not Ukip. It is made up of

activists who devote their own time

0:16:470:16:51

and effort for this. He is not Ukip.

They are Ukip, and they have said

0:16:510:16:56

through the National Executive

committee, you can bet your life

0:16:560:16:59

they are taken soundings from local

members about what they should do

0:16:590:17:03

before reaching that decision, they

have made that decision. How much

0:17:030:17:07

will it cost to run a leadership

election

I don't know. We will have

0:17:070:17:11

to hire a venue, I have been told

the backers of the party who are not

0:17:110:17:16

donating money while we are in this

party will put money forward to have

0:17:160:17:22

a meeting to get rid of him.

Which

donors are you talking about? I am

0:17:220:17:27

not going to name them. That may

fund what you are planning to do, is

0:17:270:17:31

the party in a very poor financial

situation? I wouldn't say it in a

0:17:310:17:37

great one but every political party

has had financial crisis, this is

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because politics is a black hole

into which you pour money. That is

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the case, our weakness is we can't

sell people knighthoods and

0:17:460:17:51

Lordships, and we don't have the big

trade unions behind us. Can you

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afford to run a leadership contest?

We will fine -- find way. Are you

0:17:560:18:03

down to your last few pence?

I am not the treasurer, I know we

0:18:030:18:06

are in a difficult position but we

still have a party and it is

0:18:060:18:10

maintaining itself. Would you join

Nigel Farage's party if he starts a

0:18:100:18:14

new one. No. Is he starting one? I

don't know. He said he was aren't

0:18:140:18:20

then he wasn't so I have to take his

last statement as being true. I only

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know what I read in The Papers, I

believe he was reported as saying

0:18:240:18:28

that and denied it. Do you think it

is a good idea for him to start a

0:18:280:18:33

new party, bearing in mind the

chaos?

0:18:330:18:34

It wouldn't be a party, it would be

the Nigel Farage fan club, I have

0:18:340:18:39

had a tremendous admiration for what

he does well, he was the best

0:18:390:18:43

representative of the Leave side in

the whole campaign, he won that from

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the media point of view, he is

fantastic at that kind of thing. Why

0:18:470:18:52

would you want to start a new one

when he could come back, if he put

0:18:520:18:58

his hat any am sure he would be

elected. How many have you got still

0:18:580:19:02

in position? Five or six have gone,

I can't see many are going to stay.

0:19:020:19:09

You could have nobody in position.

Yes, but I resigned as the Brexit

0:19:090:19:15

spokesman for Henry but I am

happening to -- happy to talk about

0:19:150:19:19

it at the drop of a hat.

0:19:190:19:31

Now, on Europe,'s doorstep. General

Carter will point out that the

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Russian army demonstrated its

capability, by carrying out massive

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drills near the border with Europe,

last September. And he will say that

0:19:470:19:53

Russia used long range missiles in

Syria which were deployed from a

0:19:530:20:00

rage of 1500 kilometre, he will warn

cyber ware fare can be used on the

0:20:000:20:04

battlefield and to disrupt normal

people's lives.

0:20:040:20:07

It is thought that the general's

intervention has been sanctioned by

0:20:070:20:11

the Defence Secretary who is trying

to make the case for defence

0:20:110:20:15

spending in cabinet. This comes as

the Ministry of Defence is

0:20:150:20:21

reportedly trying to make 20 billion

of efficiency savings to fund new

0:20:210:20:24

military equipment. And there is

also an ongoing review of the UK's

0:20:240:20:29

security capabilities which is being

carried out by the Government's

0:20:290:20:33

national security adviser Mark said

0:20:330:20:35

by the Government's national

0:20:350:20:37

I can now speak to the Times'

Defence Editor Deborah Haynes.

0:20:370:20:39

well. Welcome. General Sir nick

Carter says we are struggling to

0:20:390:20:43

keep up with the likes of Russia in

terms of signer ware fare and

0:20:430:20:48

conventional capability, does that

sound plausible to you?

0:20:480:20:50

Very much so. It is what people are

been saying behind the scenes for a

0:20:500:20:54

long time. I think the important

fact is that Sir Nick has been

0:20:540:21:01

sanctioned to talk about this

publicly, which underlines the

0:21:010:21:04

seriousness of the challenge. How

unusual is that, that he does seem

0:21:040:21:10

to have been given permission by the

Defence Secretary? It is incredibly

0:21:100:21:15

unusual. It contrasts with what the

chiefs were allowed to say under the

0:21:150:21:20

previous Defence Secretary Sir

Michael Fallon. The Government says

0:21:200:21:24

they are spending more on defence,

why is there so much pressure on

0:21:240:21:27

this MoD budget?

That is a good question, so the

0:21:270:21:31

defence budget is rising in real

terms year on year. It is a

0:21:310:21:35

protected budget so lots of other

departments look at defence with

0:21:350:21:39

envy, the equip it they have to buy,

such as nuclear armed submarine,

0:21:390:21:47

fighter jet, warships, that is

affected by what is called defence

0:21:470:21:50

inflation and the rate of defence

inflation, so that the amount of

0:21:500:21:54

money you spend on a widget, last

year compared to next year, is much

0:21:540:22:02

higher than the 0.5 in the defence

budget. The other factor is a lot of

0:22:020:22:06

the spending that the Government's

committed to, for defence, is

0:22:060:22:10

contingent on the MoD making rather

challenging efficiency savings, the

0:22:100:22:16

permanent secretary put them at

about 20 billion over the next ten

0:22:160:22:20

year, and they are not achieving

that at the moment. And therefore,

0:22:200:22:23

in order to keep going, in order to

keep, to stand still they are having

0:22:230:22:29

to cut training, ammunition stores,

spare parts, so the Armed Forces are

0:22:290:22:34

being hollowed out at a time when

adversaries are increasing their

0:22:340:22:37

capability.

How is the battle between the two

0:22:370:22:47

going? Gavin Williamson came into

the MoD at the beginning of

0:22:470:22:51

November, and at that time, he was

presented with a series of options,

0:22:510:22:56

that the Armed Forces had been

forced to draw up as part of this

0:22:560:23:02

capability review, which proposed

rather stark cuts to the armed

0:23:020:23:06

force, cuts in manpower, up to

14,000 personnel, cuts in warship,

0:23:060:23:11

helicopters, a whole range of

different capabilities, which would

0:23:110:23:16

not have been acceptable

politically, to many backbench Tory

0:23:160:23:19

MPs, and also, would not be

acceptable for the country at a time

0:23:190:23:24

of intensifying threats, so there is

a battle to try and wake the public

0:23:240:23:28

up to this, wake them up to the fact

that the security we enjoy, is not

0:23:280:23:33

ours by right, it is not guaranteed.

Even in the US they have released a

0:23:330:23:39

national defence strategy on Friday,

in which it is very stark that they

0:23:390:23:43

talk about countries such as China,

and Russian, -- Russia being the

0:23:430:23:49

primary focus, they talk about

interstate competition as opposed to

0:23:490:23:52

terrorism, which has been the focus,

and so there is a shift in awareness

0:23:520:23:58

about how the west's kind of

military edge is eroding and the

0:23:580:24:03

need to do something about that.

Thank you.

0:24:030:24:09

Listening to that was

former First Sea Lord

0:24:090:24:11

and Security Minister Lord West.

0:24:110:24:12

Welcome. Do you agree with the

general, that the Armed Forces need

0:24:120:24:16

more money in order particularly as

he says to counter threats from the

0:24:160:24:22

likes of Russia?

0:24:220:24:28

likes of Russia? They are an threat

to the nation. It is not tan

0:24:280:24:33

existential threat. There is no

doubt, rather than by design, error

0:24:330:24:37

if you look at how Putin is behaving

such a thing could happen. Not very

0:24:370:24:41

far away, in that sense, but Deborah

talked about the need to spend more

0:24:410:24:45

money, lots of money on new

equipment. Is that where the

0:24:450:24:49

pressure lies, that it is actually,

the desire of the MoD, to spend

0:24:490:24:55

money on impressive new equipment

and savings need to be found? You

0:24:550:25:02

are buying equipment that makes it

capable for you to fight in a war.

0:25:020:25:06

So for example if you are buying a

ship it is difficult to swim to

0:25:060:25:09

where you are getting to, so you

need these thing, and, I think the

0:25:090:25:14

problem stems back further. When you

look back to 2010, Hammond was the

0:25:140:25:20

Secretary of State for Defence, he

talked of the black hole. I found

0:25:200:25:24

that extraordinary, 34 billion black

hole. He said I've solved: Now we

0:25:240:25:30

have a 25 billion black hole because

there is always a list of orders

0:25:300:25:35

coming up that don't have money. If

you don't allow for the defence

0:25:350:25:39

inflation, that Deborah was talking

about, you start getting into real

0:25:390:25:43

problemsen, and add to that the cost

of exchange rate, that is a real

0:25:430:25:48

pressure. How would you characterise

Britain'sable to immediate meet a

0:25:480:25:54

threat from the likes of

Russia?

We

would fight as par of Nato, we have

0:25:540:26:01

been an important part of Nato. 25%

of all military defence spending has

0:26:010:26:06

been UK's, that has been mittled

away since 2010. -- whittled. Our

0:26:060:26:12

capability has reduced by a third

since 2010, if the cuts they are

0:26:120:26:16

talking about now, the Government

says they are not going to take

0:26:160:26:19

those, if they were taken it would

be a 50% cut since 2010, can you

0:26:190:26:23

imagine if we cut half our hospitals

in this country suddenly. What do

0:26:230:26:27

you say to that? You said earlier

that there is a call of course on

0:26:270:26:32

all budgets, where would you put

defence spending?

0:26:320:26:35

Every department is going to be

calling o the Chancellor. Where

0:26:350:26:40

would would you put defence? It

should be the number one priority

0:26:400:26:46

and Gavin Williamson is making the

case for why that should be there,

0:26:460:26:50

we are committed to 2% of GDP

spending and we are the second

0:26:500:26:56

biggest spender in Nato on defence.

Interestingly, we spend just over

0:26:560:27:02

£50 billion a year on debt interest

payments which would cover the whole

0:27:020:27:06

budget and that is the tough choice

the Chancellor has to make. While he

0:27:060:27:10

is having to pay the payments on

debt, money that could be going into

0:27:100:27:13

public services, whether it is the

NHS or defence... Which choice would

0:27:130:27:18

you make? It is not mine to make. It

has to be number one or two in

0:27:180:27:23

priority. You have said we would

fight as part of a Nato force, the

0:27:230:27:29

fact we wouldn't be contributing in

the way we have in the past, does it

0:27:290:27:36

matter? Nato won't be able to do

what it is meant to do and when you

0:27:360:27:40

say it is not affordable. Having

been a minister myself, Governments

0:27:400:27:44

can afford things when they feel it

is necessary to afford them.

0:27:440:27:49

Admittedly you have to squeeze other

areas but if they believe defence

0:27:490:27:52

and security of the nation is the

highest priority of any Government,

0:27:520:27:56

and I can't believe any Government,

no Prime Minister, no senior

0:27:560:28:00

minister has ever said other than

that, they have to put their Monday

0:28:000:28:02

where their mouth is. At the moment,

we are definitely, we are standing

0:28:020:28:07

into danger, we are at real risk.

Does Jeremy Corbyn feel that way? I

0:28:070:28:13

think so, yes, Labour has committed

in the election, to the 2% national

0:28:130:28:18

spend on defence, and it is

absolutely right that we listen to

0:28:180:28:21

the experts on this, if we are

putting our people potentially at

0:28:210:28:25

harms way, they need to be given

exactly the right equipment and

0:28:250:28:28

another issue as well is they need

to be paid properly. I think our

0:28:280:28:32

Armed Forces have seen a real terms

reduction in pay, as well as in

0:28:320:28:36

numbers but a real terms reduction

in pay since 2010. It is time to

0:28:360:28:40

lift the pay cap as well. Would you

be one support porting the idea of

0:28:400:28:46

boosting funding for Britain's

defences to stand up to any threat

0:28:460:28:48

from Russia? And do you think Jeremy

Corbyn would back that too? I do,

0:28:480:28:52

yes, and I would, yes. What ability

Gavin Williamson the new Defence

0:28:520:28:58

Secretary, is he a good thing? He

strikes me as a good thing, I wrote

0:28:580:29:03

a letter when he took over saying he

will be judged by the military and

0:29:030:29:06

the nation as to whether he has

managed to get the resources needed

0:29:060:29:09

to ensure the defence of our

nation,ing it seems he is trying to

0:29:090:29:13

do that. This is highly unusual for

a serving is chief, it is unusual

0:29:130:29:17

for a serving chief to be allowed to

talk about the real threats and say

0:29:170:29:21

this is a risk, to say we need more

money, I have never in my 52 years

0:29:210:29:26

in the Navy I have never come across

that, that is really a different

0:29:260:29:29

thing. So there is a lot of

pressure, building up, isn't there

0:29:290:29:33

and there is going to be some sort

of battle. It has started between

0:29:330:29:37

the Defence Secretary and Treasury,

what do you make of what could be a

0:29:370:29:41

showdown between the two? You have

said all department battle for

0:29:410:29:46

Monday, if this is European what

would you say to the Chancellor?

0:29:460:29:49

There is is a lot of support on the

backbenches for the defence and for

0:29:490:29:54

defence spending and when there was

talk of reducing the 2%,

0:29:540:29:58

backbenchers came out in support of

maintaining that spending. Every

0:29:580:30:03

department has to make its case in

terms of fighting for the small pot

0:30:030:30:07

of Michelle Obama there is. You said

it was led by Jonny Mercer who is a

0:30:070:30:11

former soldier, he was on this

programme saying he wanted to hold

0:30:110:30:15

the Government's feet to fire on

defence spending. Do you think the

0:30:150:30:18

Government will have to find more

money?

0:30:180:30:20

We have to summoned to changing

threats and that is part of the

0:30:200:30:23

problem in terms of why there needs

to be more spending on defence, the

0:30:230:30:26

nature of the threat is changing,

and you have to invest in the

0:30:260:30:32

equipment in order to ensure

security is up to that threat.

0:30:320:30:38

Where could savings be found?

In

defence? It is a problem because we

0:30:380:30:44

have taken so many savings out of

defence. I think it would be a rash

0:30:440:30:50

thing to say that nothing, but we

have taken saving after saving after

0:30:500:30:54

saving. The latest thing with these

efficiencies, we have taken so many

0:30:540:31:00

for so many years, they stopped

being efficiencies. They start being

0:31:000:31:03

cuts. That does not mean we cannot

find little bit here and there, but

0:31:030:31:08

effectively, the cupboard is bare.

We have taken a real hit. The size

0:31:080:31:13

of our forces, the capability, the

hollowing out is really extremely

0:31:130:31:18

worrying.

0:31:180:31:27

worrying. There is a huge

groundswell on the backbenches and

0:31:270:31:29

in the House of Lords. I have

monitored this. There is a huge

0:31:290:31:31

groundswell thing we cannot go on

like this.

How serious is this?

I

0:31:310:31:34

think it is very serious. In the

Commons there are 40 or so Tory MPs

0:31:340:31:40

who say we cannot go on like this.

But what can we do? If Philip

0:31:400:31:45

Hammond says that is it and the £20

billion worth of spending cuts or

0:31:450:31:49

savings will have them, what will

they do?

The first secretary of the

0:31:490:31:54

Treasury is always the Prime

Minister and the Prime Minister has

0:31:540:31:57

got to think about the nation and

sometimes you have to do things that

0:31:570:32:01

might not seem expedient politically

in the short term but it is for the

0:32:010:32:05

good of the nation. She will have to

look at this very closely.

Can use

0:32:050:32:10

the revolt on the backbenches

because of this?

I certainly could

0:32:100:32:14

if they implement the savings they

have talked about. The government

0:32:140:32:17

say they have not been presented to

us but they do not pop up from

0:32:170:32:21

nowhere. I think there would.

Just

finally, the review that has been

0:32:210:32:27

carried out by the government's

National Security adviser Mark

0:32:270:32:31

Sedwill, there are reports that he

has been trying to refocus the Army

0:32:310:32:37

away from conventional forces

towards cyber terrorism, would that

0:32:370:32:40

concern you?

Side is very important

and we have got to focus on it. --

0:32:400:32:49

cyber is important. You still need

that capability. I would rather

0:32:490:32:53

somebody through a computer at me

than hit me with a shell. You have

0:32:530:32:56

got to be a bit careful and wary of

how the balances.

I will not throw

0:32:560:33:07

anything at you. Thank you.

0:33:070:33:09

Is politics getting too nasty?

0:33:090:33:10

Many are expressing concern

that the language being used by some

0:33:100:33:13

politicians is poisoning the debate.

0:33:130:33:14

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has

again been forced to defend comments

0:33:140:33:17

he made in 2014 where he quoted

campaigners calling for Conservative

0:33:170:33:20

MP Esther McVey to be lynched.

0:33:200:33:21

Yesterday Andrew Marr

asked John McDonnell

0:33:210:33:22

whether he would apologise for them.

0:33:220:33:25

I said then I did not support what

was happening, of course I did not

0:33:250:33:30

support that. It is for those people

who made that statement to make that

0:33:300:33:34

apology. Let me just say this. I

made a statement impala and then of

0:33:340:33:39

course I don't support this. I wish

harm to nobody. But what I do want

0:33:390:33:44

people to think about was the

government's policies they were

0:33:440:33:48

pursuing against disabled people who

were suffering -- I made a statement

0:33:480:33:55

in Parliament.

Should he apologise

for those comments? There were

0:33:550:34:01

comments calling for Esther McVey to

be lynched.

They were totally

0:34:010:34:06

inappropriate comments. I think

everybody in public life has a real

0:34:060:34:11

responsibility with the language

used to make sure we keep standards

0:34:110:34:14

really high and to make sure we have

to remember that when we are

0:34:140:34:19

criticising each other, we have

criticised each other today, we are

0:34:190:34:23

political opponents but we are not

enemies and we should keep

0:34:230:34:27

standards- and anybody who steps

outside of those standards should be

0:34:270:34:31

prepared to say sorry if they get it

wrong.

Do think he has stepped

0:34:310:34:36

outside those standards and should

say sorry?

Other Labour MPs have

0:34:360:34:41

suggested that as well. The comments

he made yesterday made clear that he

0:34:410:34:48

was quoting, he did not support what

was said. The comments around

0:34:480:34:54

lynching were totally inappropriate.

Let's turn to Labour's Sheffield MP

0:34:540:35:01

Jared O'Mara. He is still suspended

because of derogatory comments he

0:35:010:35:04

made online. Some of which we cannot

repeat on the programme. Are you

0:35:040:35:09

frustrated there has not been a

conclusion into that enquiry?

It has

0:35:090:35:14

been months. It is bad for his

health as well but this has not come

0:35:140:35:19

to any conclusion. I think if

anybody, if there were any

0:35:190:35:23

allegations made against anybody,

they should be thoroughly

0:35:230:35:27

investigated. People have a right to

reply, innocent until proven guilty.

0:35:270:35:35

But any decisions should be swift.

It does seem that both of those

0:35:350:35:38

comments have been ones where women

have been the victims as well. I

0:35:380:35:41

think it is particularly tough for

women in politics that there is a

0:35:410:35:45

lot of potentially misogynist abuse

as well.

UI knew because you were

0:35:450:35:50

elected in the snap election, what

is your view? Do you think standards

0:35:500:35:56

are being maintained in the Labour

Party? -- you are new.

I think the

0:35:560:36:01

Labour Party needs to hear

disciplinary cases and in other

0:36:010:36:05

parties as well. This is not

particularly a party political

0:36:050:36:09

issue. But I have also seen the

nature of abuse that is coming from

0:36:090:36:13

the public as well. When leaders are

not setting the tone it is reflected

0:36:130:36:18

in public comments.

Let's talk about

the Conservative MP Ben Bradley. He

0:36:180:36:24

has written blogs which were

revealed by Buzzfeed and then

0:36:240:36:28

deleted where he called people

claiming benefits of vast sea of

0:36:280:36:33

unemployed wasters.

He has

apologised and there is a big

0:36:330:36:39

difference between a man writing a

blog before he becomes an MP to John

0:36:390:36:46

McDonnell not apologising for

comments about lynching a female MP.

0:36:460:36:51

He's still a vice-chair of the

Conservative Party. Is it acceptable

0:36:510:36:55

that someone of that position of

influence wrote in tweets saying he

0:36:550:37:00

had watched the police play

0:37:000:37:08

had watched the police play splat

the chav during the London riots. Is

0:37:080:37:12

that acceptable language from an MP

even though he was not elected them?

0:37:120:37:17

If we want people to come from a

variety of backgrounds who are not

0:37:170:37:22

professional politicians, they will

make mistakes. This is not something

0:37:220:37:26

he wrote in the last year, it was

several years ago. He has

0:37:260:37:31

apologised. If he did something like

that while he was elected as an MP,

0:37:310:37:35

that would be different.

What about

comparing it to Jared O'Mara because

0:37:350:37:40

he also wrote his comments several

years before he became an MP and yet

0:37:400:37:46

the Conservatives were extremely

quick to condemn him and said Jeremy

0:37:460:37:49

Corbyn had turned a blind eye to

this behaviour.

I have not heard

0:37:490:37:55

that he has apologised for his

comments. His comments are quite

0:37:550:37:59

violent in nature and quite abusive.

How would you describe the comments

0:37:590:38:07

by Ben Bradley?

I don't think they

should be acceptable.

He said

0:38:070:38:13

unemployed people should have

vasectomy is. That was not long ago.

0:38:130:38:17

It was several years ago and it was

long before he was up for election

0:38:170:38:22

and he has apologised. The

difference between him and John

0:38:220:38:27

McDonnell...

You keep referring to

John McDonnell. He said he was

0:38:270:38:31

quoting somebody else and the

audience can take the view about

0:38:310:38:35

whether that is enough of John

McDonnell. In terms of equal

0:38:350:38:39

behaviour between the Labour MP

Jared O'Mara who has been suspended,

0:38:390:38:43

why has Ben Bradley not been

suspended?

That is not my call to

0:38:430:38:48

make.

Should he be?

I accept his

apology. He said that is not the

0:38:480:38:54

sort of comment he will make in the

future. If we do want ordinary

0:38:540:39:01

people and not professional

politicians, people are crying out

0:39:010:39:03

for ordinary people to come into

politics and they will make

0:39:030:39:06

mistakes. I think they have

apologised and seen the error of

0:39:060:39:10

their ways, that should be accepted.

What you think it says about them

0:39:100:39:15

Bradley's attitude to those on

benefits and low incomes?

I cannot

0:39:150:39:22

speak for Ben. You need to speak to

him. What I am feeling as a female

0:39:220:39:28

MP is this issue around violence and

threats is something that four new

0:39:280:39:32

MPs is very real. I have had several

death threats and lots of abuse.

0:39:320:39:36

They does not help when politicians

in the position of the Shadow

0:39:360:39:40

Chancellor are encouraging that sort

of behaviour. It is really putting

0:39:400:39:44

off women coming into politics. One

of the key findings we found in this

0:39:440:39:49

centenary of suffrage who are not

coming into politics, it is because

0:39:490:39:52

of the abuse and threats they get

online.

Do you think Ben Bradley

0:39:520:39:58

should keep his position?

I think

that is a matter for the

0:39:580:40:03

Conservative Party. I want to echo

the comments that we want people who

0:40:030:40:06

are real people to come into

politics. A friend of mine Alex

0:40:060:40:10

Sobel gave a speech on Thursday

about his family's experience of the

0:40:100:40:14

Holocaust. It was very emotional. It

was posted online and he has been

0:40:140:40:19

subjected to the most horrible, vile

anti-Semitic abuse. Not by

0:40:190:40:25

politicians and political activists

but by members of the public and

0:40:250:40:29

right-wing

0:40:290:40:35

right-wing extremists. I think the

effect of sometimes politicians

0:40:350:40:37

using really bad language about the

public might mean the public start

0:40:370:40:40

using other bad language and none of

that is acceptable. We need to have

0:40:400:40:42

a really high standard and keep the

ten really high.

I do think we need

0:40:420:40:46

to lead by example and share mutual

respect. We may argue about policy

0:40:460:40:51

and political differences but we

should have mutual respect for it

0:40:510:40:57

other.

All right.

0:40:570:41:00

Today, America's Secretary

of State Rex Tillerson

0:41:000:41:02

will be in London to meet

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.

0:41:020:41:04

Then tomorrow, the Foreign Secretary

may raise his calls for an extra

0:41:040:41:07

£100 million a week for the NHS

at the Cabinet meeting.

0:41:070:41:12

On Wednesday, new Northern Ireland

Secretary Karen Bradley will host

0:41:120:41:16

a fresh round of political talks

aimed at restoring power-sharing.

0:41:160:41:21

And Theresa May and Jeremy

Corbyn will meet over

0:41:210:41:24

the dispatch box for PMQs.

0:41:240:41:28

The Prime Minister will then travel

to Switzerland on Thursday

0:41:280:41:34

for the World Economic Forum

in Davos where she is expected

0:41:340:41:37

to meet US President Donald Trump.

0:41:370:41:39

Labour's John McDonnell

is also going to attend.

0:41:390:41:47

We are joined by Lynn Davidson from

the Sun and the Guardian's Jessica

0:41:520:41:56

Elgot. One comment said we have a

government of boiled rabbits and

0:41:560:42:04

accused Theresa May of timidity and

other ministers have joined in. How

0:42:040:42:08

serious is this from MPs?

Nick Boyle

is a popular backbencher. He is

0:42:080:42:16

someone that Nick Timothy said he

thoughts should have a Cabinet post

0:42:160:42:24

this time around. What he is saying

here with the boiled rabbit phrase

0:42:240:42:27

which I think was borrowed from

George Orwell, is that May is not

0:42:270:42:33

allowing ministers who might have

big bold reform and agendas for

0:42:330:42:37

their parliament, to do anything.

She is really good at putting the

0:42:370:42:40

brakes on ideas but not that good at

giving the wind to sail in. One of

0:42:400:42:49

the people he is perhaps thinking of

is Michael Gove, a close friend of

0:42:490:42:54

his and Sajid Javid is at housing.

If you look at May's reshuffle, that

0:42:540:43:00

kind of people she promoted were a

very safe pair of hands people,

0:43:000:43:06

people like David Gauke, the new

Secretary of State for Justice. I

0:43:060:43:09

think some MPs and Conservative

backbenchers are frustrated that

0:43:090:43:12

some of the bold things that May

said at the beginning of her

0:43:120:43:17

Premiership have sunk without a

trace.

Lynn Davidson, has Boris

0:43:170:43:24

Johnson is a commitment from Cabinet

colleagues for a commitment to spend

0:43:240:43:28

an extra 100 million a week on the

NHS?

He has support from some like

0:43:280:43:39

Chris Grayling and Penny Mordaunt.

What see later on is what will

0:43:390:43:43

happen in the week. Boris has

decided to own this. His name is all

0:43:430:43:48

over the £350 billion pledge. He

wants to take it forward. Jeremy

0:43:480:43:52

Hunt has signalled his support as

well.

Do think the pressure will

0:43:520:43:57

build up on Theresa May to do more

when it comes to the NHS, bearing in

0:43:570:44:01

mind even Jeremy Hunt has talked

about the 10-year long-term spending

0:44:010:44:05

plan?

I

0:44:050:44:11

think there is a bit of tension

around the Cabinet table. May's new

0:44:180:44:21

chief of staff Gavin Barwell has

been gently suggesting that if you

0:44:210:44:23

look at the polls, Labour is well

ahead on the NHS and if you're going

0:44:230:44:26

to be really cynical about it, the

Conservatives should put their

0:44:260:44:28

energies on places where they can

take on the Conservatives like

0:44:280:44:30

housing, schools and he will be

making the argument that this was a

0:44:300:44:33

referendum pledge and it is really

Boris' own reputation that he wants

0:44:330:44:36

to protect by pushing this 100

million for the NHS, as much as we

0:44:360:44:41

have seen in the headlines over the

winter that the NHS does need extra

0:44:410:44:45

funding, he will say is this really

a priority for the Conservative

0:44:450:44:50

Party?

What about the World Economic

Forum in Davos this week? We hear

0:44:500:44:54

that Theresa May has secured a

bilateral with Donald Trump if he

0:44:540:44:58

goes himself, and also, in terms of

the British economy, the former

0:44:580:45:03

Treasury Minister Jim O'Neill said

the economy is doing better than he

0:45:030:45:07

expected and better generally than

he expected. What do you make of it?

0:45:070:45:11

That was great news from Jim O'Neill

this morning, a real turnaround from

0:45:110:45:16

what he said previously. We have

Theresa May going on Thursday,

0:45:160:45:20

Emmanuel Macron gives his address

0:45:200:45:31

Emmanuel Macron gives his address on

Wednesday which is his vision of how

0:45:310:45:33

the EU will go ahead in the future

and then we will have Theresa May

0:45:330:45:36

the next day. What will be

interesting this year is that we

0:45:360:45:38

have John McDonnell going as well

which is assigned people are taking

0:45:380:45:41

Labour seriously and we look forward

to what he has to say about things.

0:45:410:45:43

Thank you.

0:45:430:45:50

He is encouraged by British

prospects.

I read something

0:45:500:45:54

different, he said the world is

growing but Britain's growth isn't

0:45:540:45:59

as freighted. If you look at what

the projections were for economic

0:45:590:46:04

growth, compared to the reality,

then we are £350 million a week

0:46:040:46:11

worse off, since the referendum

result, compared to the predictions,

0:46:110:46:16

and The Irony is that that is the

exact amount that the Leave campaign

0:46:160:46:20

were saying was going to be promised

as extra, it is big threat to our

0:46:200:46:25

NHS, the lack of economic growth, as

well as the threat to our staff and

0:46:250:46:28

to drugs.

The lack of economic

growth but the Armageddon didn't

0:46:280:46:33

happen, British economy didn't

collapse in the immediate aftermath

0:46:330:46:37

as was warned by so many remainors,

no doubt yourself.

We haven't left.

0:46:370:46:42

They said in the immediate aftermath

of that vote.

We would be lucky

0:46:420:46:47

several things have happened, there

has been great global economic

0:46:470:46:50

growth and I think the fall in the

value of the pound has been a boost

0:46:500:46:54

to exports as well. .

So that was

wrong that claim made at the time?

0:46:540:47:00

There were lots of predictions that

are were flying round, the 350

0:47:000:47:04

million a week for the NHS was

wrong.

Jim O'Neill said that weaker

0:47:040:47:09

British growth in the economy was

going to be buoyed by the world

0:47:090:47:12

economy, so is that what we are

looking at, as someone who voted

0:47:120:47:15

leave, we will have to rely on

stronger growth not only globally

0:47:150:47:21

but in the EU

It shows you can't

listen to ex %s, it was more than

0:47:210:47:27

saying the economy was going to fall

flat. We were talking about

0:47:270:47:31

emergency budgets because it was

going to be such a big disaster, we

0:47:310:47:35

have proved the experts wrong.

But

the growth has been forecast down

0:47:350:47:39

slightly for this year.

Yes, but the

economy of the country is doing

0:47:390:47:43

well, we have more people in

employment, more people in full-time

0:47:430:47:46

employment. We are starting to see

wages rise, so...

Where are we

0:47:460:47:52

starting to see wages rise? Where,

they

They are just under inflation.

0:47:520:47:58

Inflation is at 3%. We are seeing

employment rising. We have people in

0:47:580:48:04

full-time jobs more than ever

before, and people are starting to

0:48:040:48:07

see the benefit of that and compared

to the predictions made.

That is one

0:48:070:48:13

thing but in terms of wages compared

to rate of inflation, there has been

0:48:130:48:19

static wage growth or in fact it is

really cut, in most instances.

0:48:190:48:23

Compare that to most of the other

countries in the...

But there has

0:48:230:48:29

been lots of employment.

That is

unstable work.

If you look at the

0:48:290:48:34

lowest paid they are seeing an

increase, so for the lowest paid

0:48:340:48:38

they are seeing more money in their

pockets and they are seeing more

0:48:380:48:41

security in their job, if you

compare to countries like Spain and

0:48:410:48:46

Italy where there is 40% youth

unemployment. This country has done

0:48:460:48:50

very well to make sure that didn't

happen here.

It doesn't feel like

0:48:500:48:54

that to many people in the party of

the country, in the North East who

0:48:540:49:01

are on zero hours contracts who

haven't seen any real rise in the

0:49:010:49:06

money coming in, and they have seen

costs going up.

With the tax

0:49:060:49:11

threshold going up that is

significant. If you look at what

0:49:110:49:13

Labour want to do, they want to do

£176 billion of borrowing, that will

0:49:130:49:19

cost every household in this country

£6500 a year, that will make a

0:49:190:49:25

significant dent.

I am not sure

about that amount of borrowing. Let

0:49:250:49:30

me go back to your the comments made

by your colleague who said Theresa

0:49:300:49:37

May's Government was timid and

lacking big ideas, is that helpful?

0:49:370:49:41

That is his opinion.

Are they

helpful to the Government is this

I

0:49:410:49:45

don't think they are. Brexit is

going to play a major role this

0:49:450:49:47

year, we are leaving in March 2019.

We have to prepare for that. There

0:49:470:49:53

is significant domestic policies.

What are they

Housing, we are

0:49:530:49:58

introducing a ban on letting agents

fee, that will make a difference for

0:49:580:50:02

they have been charged anything from

200 to £1,000.

What about 5,000

0:50:020:50:09

extra homes a year, is that radical.

Oliver Letwin is conducting a

0:50:090:50:15

review.

A review.

Not on is he

reviewing he will look at powers for

0:50:150:50:26

compulsory purchase order, for

developers who are not building, we

0:50:260:50:28

will tackle that. There is big

domestic policies coming through.

0:50:280:50:34

Yesterday thousands of women took

to the streets in London to call

0:50:340:50:37

for gender equality and to demand

"time's up" on sexual harassment.

0:50:370:50:39

There were similar marches in

the United States over the weekend.

0:50:390:50:42

The papers are full of stories

of male public figures being accused

0:50:420:50:45

Yesterday thousands of women took

to the streets in London to call

0:50:560:50:59

for gender equality and to demand

"time's up" on sexual harassment.

0:50:590:51:02

There were similar marches in

the United States over the weekend.

0:51:020:51:04

The papers are full of stories

of male public figures being accused

0:51:040:51:07

of inappropriate behaviour.

0:51:070:51:08

Some, however, claim things have

gone too far and the movement has

0:51:080:51:11

become an attack on a whole gender.

0:51:110:51:13

Here's the journalist

Charlotte Gill with her soapbox.

0:51:130:51:15

Feminism has turned into more of a

cult than a social movement. It

0:51:150:51:18

demands that women think and read

the same way and worship the same

0:51:180:51:22

idols. We non-believers are made to

feel we are waiting to be saved or

0:51:220:51:27

in denial. The #metoo movement

started off with honourable aim,

0:51:270:51:33

after Harvey Weinstein's behaviour

was first brought to light. Women

0:51:330:51:36

had been keen to make sure that no

such instances happened again.

0:51:360:51:42

Victims of sexual assault feel

aggrieved. Terrible things have

0:51:420:51:46

happened to them and guilty men have

no always been brought to justice.

0:51:460:51:50

Twitter gave power back to many.

But in the quest to right the wrongs

0:51:500:51:56

of the past the #metoo movement has

become overwhelming an dangerous. It

0:51:560:52:03

has developed many kashty edge, it

has morphed into a suspicion against

0:52:030:52:10

an entire gender. It is similar to

the 1950s witch hunt against

0:52:100:52:16

supposed Communists but now numerous

men in Hollywood and others in

0:52:160:52:20

lesser known industries have found

their lives ruined, off the back of

0:52:200:52:26

unscrutinised accusation, almost

every day a new accusation is spread

0:52:260:52:29

on the internet. Often men have no

chance to defend themselves. We need

0:52:290:52:36

to separate serious assault from

poor attempts at flirtation, we need

0:52:360:52:41

to make distinctions between the

intentions of men, a man who wants

0:52:410:52:45

to harm women, is surely different

from one who misread red the signals

0:52:450:52:50

but most importantly we must

treatment sexual assault and sexual

0:52:500:52:55

relations with a more balanced an

proich. These are complicated

0:52:550:52:58

issues, not ones to be bandied about

on Twitter while the crowds watch

0:52:580:53:03

on, those who question the

legitimacy of #metoo are not looking

0:53:030:53:07

for no response but it is time for a

proportionate one.

0:53:070:53:10

-- approach.

0:53:100:53:15

And Charlotte is here in the studio

with us. Do you understand why women

0:53:170:53:20

marched yesterday?

Yes, what, I can

understand, what happened in terms

0:53:200:53:24

of Weinstein, which started this

movement, was a terrible incident,

0:53:240:53:29

there have been, there is no doubt

that terrible things have happened

0:53:290:53:32

to women but what has been allowed

to happen is it has escalated into

0:53:320:53:37

justice by the mob, so it is not so

much that I don't understand, I

0:53:370:53:41

understand the anger and what has

happened but I think it's spiralled

0:53:410:53:45

slightly out of proportion.

Has it

spiralled to use your words because

0:53:450:53:50

the scale of the problem is that

big? And what it did was give women

0:53:500:53:54

the confidence to come forward and

reveal what had happened to them,

0:53:540:54:00

which is deemed inappropriate and

unacceptable. ?

I think it is a

0:54:000:54:04

mixture, there are things that

needed to be sorted out but I think

0:54:040:54:08

there were other channels they could

have used than Twitter which has

0:54:080:54:11

been harnessed at the moment. Think

that humans have a natural propence

0:54:110:54:16

the I to gravitate toward crowds and

mob, and I think that is something

0:54:160:54:20

that has repeated itself throughout

history, so in the quest to set

0:54:200:54:24

justice right we have followed that

pattern.

Do you agree there have

0:54:240:54:28

been a lot of injustices that need

to be corrected?

I think it has been

0:54:280:54:32

conflated. There is the Harvey

Weinstein, what happened there was

0:54:320:54:37

bad but you have instances of hand

on knees and bad dates, the excuse

0:54:370:54:44

that has been given the reasoning is

that's a assault happens on a

0:54:440:54:50

spectrum, but punishment hasn't been

on a spectrum. It hasn't been the

0:54:500:54:54

case a hand on the knee gets the

same repercussion.

Do you say it has

0:54:540:55:01

spiralled out of control or it has

liberated women?

It has been

0:55:010:55:09

inspirational, a one years on from

suffragettes, there is is a lot left

0:55:090:55:12

in terms of getting gender equality,

with a massive pay gap. We see that

0:55:120:55:17

power different shall that still

operates, particularly within a

0:55:170:55:22

workplace, and, I think we need to

see much more power equality, there

0:55:220:55:26

is nothing wrong, I am in a

relationship that began at work, and

0:55:260:55:32

when you negotiate the beginnings of

a relationship, sometimes it is

0:55:320:55:36

complicated, sometimes it is clumsy.

It should be a risk at your own

0:55:360:55:41

expense.

Do you think it has gone

too far, has it been trialled by

0:55:410:55:49

Twitter

That is an element of that.

What we have seen in this and the

0:55:490:55:54

Westminster scandal as well, there

haven't been proper processes in

0:55:540:55:57

place for women who have been

victims of assault to be able to

0:55:570:56:01

make the claim, I know Andrea led

some is doing that cross-party in

0:56:010:56:04

Parliament so if people have been

victims they can come for wartment

0:56:040:56:08

we have seen rape cases where young

men have been you know, been

0:56:080:56:12

allegations made against them and

evidence not being brought forward

0:56:120:56:15

which has cleared their name, so we

need to get the balance right. If

0:56:150:56:18

the process is wrong, it does no

favours to women.

Was that down to

0:56:180:56:24

poor prosecution rather than whether

women should come forward with

0:56:240:56:27

complaints?

We need to have a

system. If a woman has got a

0:56:270:56:32

complaint she has a safe mechanism

and she is confident justice will be

0:56:320:56:36

done. I am not sure we are there

yet.

Isn't that the problem, you say

0:56:360:56:40

people have resorted to Twitter, and

there has been a mob campaign, but

0:56:400:56:45

isn't that because they haven't been

believed, women have complained

0:56:450:56:48

about it and been told to hush it

up, or they haven't been given any

0:56:480:56:53

way of actually pursuing their

complaint?

I do think women feel

0:56:530:56:57

they have been let down by the

system, but two wrongs don't make a

0:56:570:57:00

right. You don't create your own

vigilante system because you don't

0:57:000:57:04

like the current one, I think that

is very dangerous. I think you know,

0:57:040:57:11

like Twitter, men have, if we

believe in true equality as

0:57:110:57:15

feminists we should give men the

right to argue back as women put

0:57:150:57:20

forward allegation, that hasn't been

done. Men haven't been given a

0:57:200:57:23

chance to respond. We need to follow

the proper democratic systems

0:57:230:57:27

otherwise it is know quality.

Do you

it is a witch hunt? Cab mountain

0:57:270:57:35

ministers have lost their job, do

they have the right to reply?

There

0:57:350:57:40

was an element where there was hype

and people were coming forward with

0:57:400:57:44

things they, you know, that when

there wasn't evidence, and so, if

0:57:440:57:48

you are going to make complaints we

need to have a proper process, if

0:57:480:57:53

you have an accusation about a

serious sexual assault you need to

0:57:530:57:57

to go to the police not the media.

It is not fair on women who are put

0:57:570:58:01

out there as victims and they are

not able to follow the proper

0:58:010:58:05

justice process, and also, for the

men where the accusations are made.

0:58:050:58:08

We have a justice system in this

country, and there should be a way

0:58:080:58:12

of making an allegation and that to

be investigated.

0:58:120:58:18

We will have to leave it there.

0:58:180:58:21

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:210:58:24

The question was Cabinet Office

Minister David Lidington has

0:58:240:58:26

confirmed what will NOT happen

to mark the moment the UK

0:58:260:58:29

leave the EU next year?

0:58:290:58:30

Was it...

0:58:300:58:31

The White Cliffs of

Dover will be lit up?

0:58:310:58:33

Big Ben will chime?

0:58:330:58:34

Street parties?

0:58:340:58:35

Or the pub licensing

hours will be extended?

0:58:350:58:37

So, Maria and Paul,

what's the correct answer?

0:58:370:58:39

I hope it is not pub licensing. I

think that is probably safe. Any

0:58:390:58:43

other ideas.

Probably the white

cliffs.

Big Ben won't chime. That is

0:58:430:58:49

the big news and some are unhappy

about it.

0:58:490:58:51

about it.

0:58:510:58:52

That's all for today.

0:58:520:58:53

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:530:58:54

The One O'Clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:540:58:57

I'll be here at noon tomorrow

with all the big political stories

0:58:570:58:58

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Maria Caulfield and Labour MP Paul Williams. They discuss calls from the head of the army for more funding. Plus the fate of Ukip with Gerard Batten MEP after a vote of no confidence in the party's leader. And whether political discourse has become too nasty.


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