30/01/2018 Daily Politics


30/01/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by director of the IPPR thinktank Tom Kibasi and others to discuss Brexit, NHS reforms and schools funding.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/01/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

The Daily Politics.

0:00:380:00:41

Leaked government documents suggest

the economy will be worse off

0:00:410:00:47

once we leave the EU.

0:00:470:00:48

The papers have enraged Eurosceptic

MPs, who are already concerned

0:00:480:00:50

at the direction the Brexit

negotiations are going -

0:00:500:00:53

we'll look at the details.

0:00:530:00:58

Meanwhile, the Lords have just

begun their scrutiny

0:00:580:00:59

of the EU Withdrawal Bill -

just how far will they go in trying

0:00:590:01:03

to amend the legislation,

and what could the consequences be?

0:01:030:01:06

We'll speak to two leading peers.

0:01:060:01:10

Leading surgeon Lord Darzi tells us

the NHS must reform to survive -

0:01:100:01:13

we'll look at the options.

0:01:130:01:20

And Environment Secretary Michael

Gove enrages animal rights groups

0:01:200:01:24

by suggesting the grey squirrel

could be culled -

0:01:240:01:26

we'll ask if he's right.

0:01:260:01:29

All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole

0:01:340:01:38

of the programme today

is the director of the Institute for

0:01:380:01:40

Public Policy Research, Tom Kibasi -

welcome to the show.

0:01:400:01:45

First this morning, a cross party

group of MPs has set out

0:01:450:01:49

new proposals for dealing

with sexual harassment

0:01:490:01:51

and bullying in Parliament.

0:01:510:01:52

Under the plans, there would be

a behaviour code covering

0:01:520:01:55

parliamentary and constituency

staff, as well as an independent

0:01:550:01:57

grievance procedure.

0:01:570:02:00

What's more, the parliamentary

commissioner would get new powers

0:02:000:02:02

to suspend MPs from the House,

which could in turn lead

0:02:020:02:05

to them to be recalled

and possibly lose their seat.

0:02:050:02:13

Do you welcome these changes?

I

think it is a good package of

0:02:160:02:20

changes, actually. They're sensible

and proportionate and I think the

0:02:200:02:22

committee has done a good job.

Do

you think they go far enough,

0:02:220:02:26

bearing in mind the number of

complaints and the scale of the

0:02:260:02:29

problem?

It is certainly a big step

forward. It raises the broader point

0:02:290:02:34

about whether these are staff

members should really be employed by

0:02:340:02:38

MPs themselves, or whether they

should be employed by parliament

0:02:380:02:41

itself like a regular employer. But

as a package I

0:02:410:02:50

as a package I think it is a

significant step forward.

What about

0:02:500:02:52

the professionalisation of the way

Parliament is run? In your mind do

0:02:520:02:55

you think it should end, the fact

that MPs are self-employed and

0:02:550:02:57

should there be a centralised human

resources team so that any

0:02:570:02:59

complaints go through that system

and staff don't have to worry about

0:02:590:03:04

retribution?

I think it would be a

rather good idea to have

0:03:040:03:07

Parliamentary staff employed by

Parliament itself and to modernise

0:03:070:03:11

Parliament and bring it into the

21st century and treat it like any

0:03:110:03:15

other employer with the same rights

and protections, I think that would

0:03:150:03:20

be a big step forward. This is

certainly progress, but I think the

0:03:200:03:24

destination that you describe is

absolutely where we should be

0:03:240:03:26

heading to.

What about the issue of

recall? At the moment it is

0:03:260:03:31

something which can be used by

constituents if their MP is found

0:03:310:03:34

guilty of a criminal offence, or if

they are sent to jail - do you agree

0:03:340:03:40

with broadening it out to cover

sexual harassment or bullying as

0:03:400:03:44

well?

At the moment it says it can

be either if you are committed for a

0:03:440:03:49

criminal offence, or suspended for

21 days. So this is the

0:03:490:03:55

Parliamentary commissioner at the

power to suspend members of

0:03:550:03:57

Parliament, and I think that is

sensible. Members of Parliament

0:03:570:04:01

should only be able to dismissed by

the people who elect them and I

0:04:010:04:05

think the recall mechanism is a

sensible thing. Ultimately the power

0:04:050:04:08

has to rest with the people who put

them there, they should be able to

0:04:080:04:14

boot them out if necessary.

0:04:140:04:17

Now it's time for our daily quiz.

0:04:170:04:21

The question for today is? What has

the Defence Secretary,

0:04:210:04:23

Gavin Williamson, reportedly

demanded be removed

0:04:230:04:25

from the Ministry of Defence?

0:04:250:04:27

Was it...

0:04:270:04:28

A) Pictures of Theresa May?

0:04:280:04:29

B) A bust of Winston Churchill?

0:04:290:04:30

C) EU flags?

0:04:300:04:31

Or D) Copies of The Guardian?

0:04:310:04:33

At the end of the show,

Tom will give us the correct answer.

0:04:330:04:36

Theresa May chaired cabinet this

morning, and I would imagine

0:04:360:04:38

there was quite a bit to talk about.

0:04:380:04:40

She is due to embark

on a business trip to China.

0:04:400:04:44

But troubles over the

Prime Minister's Brexit

0:04:440:04:46

policy persist at home.

0:04:460:04:50

But troubles over the

Prime Minister's Brexit

0:04:500:04:51

policy persist at home.

0:04:510:04:52

Leaked Whitehall analysis published

by Buzzfeed News says that the UK

0:04:520:04:55

economy will grow more slowly

outside the EU, no matter what deal

0:04:550:04:58

is struck with Brussels.

0:04:580:04:59

Some Brexit-supporting MPs swiftly

rejected the findings,

0:04:590:05:01

with the likes of Iain Duncan-Smith

calling it "incomplete"

0:05:010:05:04

and "deliberately leaked

because it gives a bad view".

0:05:040:05:10

Government sources say

that its preferred bespoke trade

0:05:100:05:13

deal option wasn't included,

and that the UK will NOT be worse

0:05:130:05:20

off outside the EU.

0:05:200:05:21

Meanwhile, the Sun

newspaper reports comments

0:05:210:05:23

from the International Trade

Secretary, Liam Fox,

0:05:230:05:25

that Eurosceptic colleagues need

to "live with disappointment"

0:05:250:05:29

and accept that the Tories don't

have a working majority.

0:05:290:05:35

Dr Fox has since issued

a clarification, saying

0:05:350:05:38

that his comments were instead

directed against those

0:05:380:05:39

plotting against Mrs May.

0:05:390:05:42

It comes as the government

prepares for a legislative

0:05:420:05:45

showdown in the Lords,

where the EU Withdrawal Bill is set

0:05:450:05:49

to be debated for the first time.

0:05:490:05:52

Almost 200 peers are expected

to speak in the debate,

0:05:520:05:54

although no votes are expected

to take place until

0:05:540:05:58

later next month.

0:05:580:06:01

In Brussels, meanwhile, the EU

agreed its negotiating guidelines

0:06:010:06:05

for the transition period.

0:06:050:06:08

The EU's chief negotiator,

Michel Barnier, said the UK

0:06:080:06:10

would continue to accept all EU

rules - including rule changes

0:06:100:06:13

adopted after March 2019 -

but that it would not be

0:06:130:06:16

involved in decision-making.

0:06:160:06:20

Downing Street, however,

insists there will be a negotiation

0:06:200:06:22

on the transition period.

0:06:220:06:28

With me now is the Conservative MP

Stephen Hammond, who lost his job

0:06:280:06:31

as vice-chairman of the party

after he rebelled against

0:06:310:06:34

the government and voted

for an amendment to the EU

0:06:340:06:36

Withdrawal Bill, calling

for a meaningful vote.

0:06:360:06:40

Welcome to The Daily Politics. Let's

talk about the analysis that's been

0:06:400:06:46

leaked. Before the referendum, then

Chancellor George Osborne told us

0:06:460:06:52

the vote to leave would spark a

year-long recession and it would

0:06:520:06:57

cost 820,000 jobs within two years,

and David Cameron said Brexit would

0:06:570:07:00

put a bomb under the British economy

- of those fears were wrong then,

0:07:000:07:05

why shouldn't they be wrong now?

Well, they were wrong then and I'm

0:07:050:07:09

pleased that so many people have

stayed in their jobs. But the last

0:07:090:07:13

set of economic news showed slightly

better growth but it also showed

0:07:130:07:16

that we have gone from the

fastest-growing to the slowest

0:07:160:07:20

growing economy around, and it also

showed that we have the slowest rate

0:07:200:07:23

for five years. The reason why I

think this is embarrassing for the

0:07:230:07:28

government today is that first of

all, this was a confidential, cross

0:07:280:07:32

Whitehall paper that was shown to

ministers confidentially, so someone

0:07:320:07:36

has leaked it, so that is

embarrassing. And secondly it does

0:07:360:07:40

show a consensus that whatever

option you look at, unfortunately

0:07:400:07:44

our economy will grow less fast when

we leave the EU.

And you have talked

0:07:440:07:47

about how embarrassing the leaked is

- isn't the timing of it suspect?

0:07:470:07:53

Nigel Evans, one of your colleagues,

says it is part of a dirty tricks

0:07:530:07:58

campaign, licked by somebody who

wants a soft Brexit?

I am not going

0:07:580:08:02

to comment on what Nigel said. It is

a piece of paper which has started

0:08:020:08:08

around Whitehall, I don't know why

it was leaked. But we should be

0:08:080:08:11

looking at what it actually says,

which is that whatever option you

0:08:110:08:16

choose, which ever one they have

modelled, the UK economy will grow

0:08:160:08:20

less strongly than otherwise it

would have done.

But you yourself

0:08:200:08:23

have said that the initial fears

which had been warned about by

0:08:230:08:26

politicians in the immediate

aftermath of the referendum, I

0:08:260:08:29

haven't been realised. So, how

strongly can you believe that

0:08:290:08:36

predictions made for 15 years' time

are highly speculative?

Of course

0:08:360:08:40

you cannot be absolutely precise

about any forecast.

So should we

0:08:400:08:45

take any notice of it?

Hold on,

there is an important point here.

0:08:450:08:51

This is economists looking at all

departments, so it is a much wider

0:08:510:08:54

range than last time.

Whichever

option, the trend is clear.

So,

0:08:540:08:59

whatever you say about the details,

the trend is clear, and that's what

0:08:590:09:04

should be worrying everybody, but

also the policymakers in government,

0:09:040:09:08

to make sure that we get a Brexit

that works for Britain.

The detail

0:09:080:09:12

is important here, when we're

talking about whether the economy

0:09:120:09:15

will grow more slowly than

predicted, we are supposed to

0:09:150:09:18

believe that the Treasury can

accurately Vidic something 15 years

0:09:180:09:23

in advance, and yet this report has

already changed, so they have

0:09:230:09:27

already revised down the warnings?

Well, this is a new report as I

0:09:270:09:32

understand it and the whole thing we

should be saying now is that the

0:09:320:09:35

government must now publish this so

that we can actually see the detail,

0:09:350:09:40

but this is a new report looking at

the latest information, compiled by

0:09:400:09:44

economists from as many departments

as I understand that exist across

0:09:440:09:49

Whitehall, and the trend is very

clear, and it is a worrying trend.

0:09:490:09:53

Therefore we need the government to

look at an option which keeps

0:09:530:09:57

Britain in a customs union.

Is it

not important, though, to realise,

0:09:570:10:02

you say there is a clear trend, but

not one of the models includes the

0:10:020:10:08

one where Britain negotiates a

bespoke, tailor-made deal, that

0:10:080:10:12

hasn't been included, so...

That is

true but what HAS been modelled is a

0:10:120:10:18

you of free trade deal with the EU,

which presumably is what that model

0:10:180:10:22

will be. And also the benefits of

doing outside deals. It says that

0:10:220:10:28

the economy will grow less slowly

under a country hence if free trade

0:10:280:10:32

deal, by 2% and the benefits of

though trade deals will be 0.6%. So

0:10:320:10:37

even if you take that, it doesn't

look great at the moment. However,

0:10:370:10:43

the government can resolve this by

publishing the analysis and also

0:10:430:10:46

telling people what it actually

wants in its bespoke Ardal.

Well,

0:10:460:10:51

what do you want the government to

do now on the basis of this

0:10:510:10:55

information, what do you think

should happen?

I want the government

0:10:550:10:59

to negotiate a bespoke deal, but I

want to make sure that we have

0:10:590:11:03

closely aligned regulator EE

equivalence for the financial

0:11:030:11:06

services, our biggest earner, and I

want to see us in a customs union

0:11:060:11:11

which allows us to trade freely with

our European colleagues but also

0:11:110:11:14

allows us to look at some of those

relatively small but worthwhile

0:11:140:11:18

benefits from outside trade deals.

Do you think we are getting closer

0:11:180:11:22

to a position where the public

should be consulted again?

I think a

0:11:220:11:26

lot of the public want the

government to set out its direction

0:11:260:11:30

and are willing the government to

get on with it and do it well.

But

0:11:300:11:34

do you think we're moving closer to

a position where...?

Lots of people

0:11:340:11:39

have called for that since we have

had the first referendum. I am

0:11:390:11:43

certainly not calling for that. I

would like the government to look at

0:11:430:11:46

a comprehensive deal which keeps a

Britain in a customs union and

0:11:460:11:50

allows us to make sure that we're

closely aligned with the EU

0:11:500:11:54

regulator is system so that our

services industry can continue to

0:11:540:11:59

prosper.

People out there heard the

doom and gloom which was given them

0:11:590:12:01

in the run-up to the referendum and

they still voted to leave in

0:12:010:12:05

defiance of all those warnings and

the forecasts - do you think this

0:12:050:12:09

will change their minds?

People out

there were told there was going to

0:12:090:12:13

be £330 million for the NHS in week

and that clearly wasn't right,

0:12:130:12:17

either. And so I think a lot of

people voted on that basis.

Do you

0:12:170:12:21

agree with Anna Soubry that Theresa

May needs to get a grip of the arch

0:12:210:12:26

Eurosceptics in your party?

Well, I

think where she is right is that it

0:12:260:12:30

would be helpful for the government

to set out its position so that

0:12:300:12:33

everybody can be clear what its

position is, and I hope that

0:12:330:12:36

position will be that the government

rejects a hard You're watching

0:12:360:12:39

Breakfast from the BBC. And opt for

one which is in the economic

0:12:390:12:43

posterity of this country.

Do you

have faith in Theresa May to

0:12:430:12:47

negotiate the best deal?

I am clear

that Mrs May has the option to do so

0:12:470:12:51

and will do so. And I and clear that

that should the a customs union

0:12:510:12:55

closely regulated, with close

regulatory equivalents so that we

0:12:550:13:01

can get the best economic outcome

for the people. We want people to

0:13:010:13:05

have secure jobs post-Brexit, an

opportunity of a good future and a

0:13:050:13:09

better Britain.

You don't sound

convinced that Theresa May is the

0:13:090:13:13

best equipped to negotiate what will

be a very difficult trade deal with

0:13:130:13:17

the EU?

I think that was a

prescriptive question, I think I was

0:13:170:13:22

pretty unequivocal, frankly.

So

she's got your full support?

I want

0:13:220:13:28

the Prime Minister Sir succeed.

And

should she named her departure date

0:13:280:13:31

to unify the party?

Only if she

judges that unify the party.

And

0:13:310:13:35

what do you think?

Well, I think

there has been a lot of speculation

0:13:350:13:40

about that, I think the Prime

Minister may wish to make her

0:13:400:13:42

intentions clear.

0:13:420:13:44

Conservative MP and leading

Eurosceptic Bernard

0:13:440:13:46

Jenkin is with me now.

0:13:460:13:49

It looks like the government has

been sitting on this report, and you

0:13:490:13:52

can see why, it is fairly damning in

every respect as far as the economy

0:13:520:13:57

is concerned, for Brexit?

I mean, we

have been here before. To some

0:13:570:14:03

extent, I don't entirely blame the

BBC for this, but government

0:14:030:14:08

economists think Brexit is bad for

Britain... It is not exactly a very

0:14:080:14:12

big story, is it and they were

wrong, as you pointed out in your

0:14:120:14:16

interview with Stephen, completely

wrong. We didn't lose 800,000 jobs,

0:14:160:14:22

we more or less created 800,000 jobs

since the voter! The trend has been

0:14:220:14:27

in completely the opposite

direction. Yes, the economy has

0:14:270:14:32

slowed a bit but that was after a

long and sustained period of

0:14:320:14:35

economic growth, when the IMF, for

example, was saying that George

0:14:350:14:40

Osborne's policies were going to

damage a chronic growth. These

0:14:400:14:43

economists are very often wrong. The

government factor in changes in

0:14:430:14:50

their economic model but they do not

factor in policy responses and

0:14:500:14:53

things the government might do to

mitigate against those things. And

0:14:530:14:57

finally I would point out that the

government's policy is not reflected

0:14:570:15:01

in any of these forecasts.

0:15:010:15:08

Just because they forecast were

wrong in your mind in the referendum

0:15:080:15:11

campaign does not mean that these

ones are. It doesn't automatically

0:15:110:15:16

follow, does it?

I can't absolutely

prove that but on the basis of the

0:15:160:15:21

364 legendary economists who

attacked Margaret Thatcher's

0:15:210:15:24

economic policy in the 1980s, they

proved to be wrong and the Treasury

0:15:240:15:28

at that time was very, very scared

of Margaret Thatcher's policy. All

0:15:280:15:33

the advice the government got about

what would happen to the economy if

0:15:330:15:36

we didn't join the euro, they were

proved wrong. The British

0:15:360:15:41

establishment has always had a

pro-EU policy. They always tried to

0:15:410:15:47

prove the point by producing

economic forecasts.

What do you say

0:15:470:15:53

about that?

The message this will be

bad for the economy has been very

0:15:530:15:56

consistent so prior to the

referendum in April 2016, there was

0:15:560:16:00

forecasts that were the same as

these forecasts now so I'm not

0:16:000:16:04

convinced this is hugely newsworthy

in that sense. Also if you look at

0:16:040:16:09

what the leader vote said, 12,000

leave voters on the day of the

0:16:090:16:13

referendum, and just 6% thought

there would be better economic

0:16:130:16:19

prospects outside the EU. Where I

think Bernard is one is to somehow

0:16:190:16:23

claim that putting up barriers

between us and our largest trading

0:16:230:16:28

partner but not only doing that but

also the EU has 50 trade deals

0:16:280:16:31

around the world and that's how we

access those markets, that somehow

0:16:310:16:35

that will be good for the economy

and what the consensus is amongst

0:16:350:16:39

all economists pretty much with the

exception of a small number is this

0:16:390:16:42

isn't going to be good for the

British economy. It's a perfectly

0:16:420:16:47

respectable position to say it's not

going to be good for the economy but

0:16:470:16:49

there are other reasons to vote

Leave, but you can't sustain the

0:16:490:16:52

position that somehow leaving the EU

is in our economic interests. Other

0:16:520:16:58

arguments are more important in

that, but it's hard to sustain that.

0:16:580:17:03

On the economic argument, Brexit

does not present a convincing case?

0:17:030:17:07

People who are against leaving the

EU constantly a tribute to us things

0:17:070:17:12

we haven't set. We don't want to put

up a unnecessary barriers to trade

0:17:120:17:17

with the EU. That is not what the

government wants, what anyone who

0:17:170:17:21

supported leave once, and if there

are barriers between trade it's

0:17:210:17:25

because they will be erected by the

EU. That could be a consequence of

0:17:250:17:29

us leaving but, yes, you are right,

in the end, people voted because

0:17:290:17:32

they wanted to take back control.

Can I pick you up on that?

We are

0:17:320:17:40

perfectly capable of taking back

control of our own destiny and make

0:17:400:17:43

the most of our economic

opportunities and, personally, I

0:17:430:17:47

have complete confidence in the

future.

Even when Liam Fox, your

0:17:470:17:52

colleague, who was broadly on the

same side as you, and a scoping out

0:17:520:17:56

free trade deals once we leave, the

European Union, has said you have to

0:17:560:18:02

prepare for disappointment because

you're not going to get...

He said

0:18:020:18:06

he was talking about something else.

I don't know what he really means by

0:18:060:18:09

that. He hasn't made a speech or a

big pronouncement.

Do you think he

0:18:090:18:16

would be wrong? Are you worried

about this idea of accepting a

0:18:160:18:21

softer Brexit?

I have no idea what

you meant by that. I think he was

0:18:210:18:25

misinterpreted. Let him come on the

television and say leaving the EU

0:18:250:18:29

will be bad for the economy. I don't

think he will say that.

I have not

0:18:290:18:33

said that. What he did say

reportedly is you need to prepare

0:18:330:18:38

yourselves for a disappointment and

have to accept a softer Brexit.

What

0:18:380:18:42

he may have been talking about is we

have to accept there will be a

0:18:420:18:46

protracted rather unpleasant

transition period. When we will have

0:18:460:18:52

to accept quite a lot of unpalatable

restrictions on what we can do.

Will

0:18:520:19:00

you accept it?

As long as we get out

at the end of it, full regulatory

0:19:000:19:06

autonomy, the ability to do trade

deals with other countries, I think

0:19:060:19:09

at the end we'll be in the possible

position because we don't want to

0:19:090:19:13

poke two fingers in the eyes of the

European Union. We want to leave on

0:19:130:19:18

amicable terms and on terms where

there is cooperation.

So you will

0:19:180:19:22

accept their negotiating position of

Britain having to abide by new rules

0:19:220:19:27

during the transition period and no

input in the decision?

I support the

0:19:270:19:33

Prime Minister unambiguously than

Stephen Hammond. He wants to be in a

0:19:330:19:37

customs union will become at the EU

and to be in a customs union is

0:19:370:19:43

frankly dissension without a

different and I agree with the Prime

0:19:430:19:46

Minister who has rejected the

government's EU guidelines produced

0:19:460:19:49

yesterday and does not want to be

unambiguously unqualified will take

0:19:490:19:55

during that British transition

period and does not want to have

0:19:550:19:59

free movement of people during the

transition period. She has rejected

0:19:590:20:04

what the EU offered yesterday and

that much bigger story than this

0:20:040:20:08

nonstory about what the economists

think.

Do you think it should all be

0:20:080:20:13

published if you think it's a

nonstory?

Of course because then we

0:20:130:20:18

can see what methodology they used.

This is what the government did not

0:20:180:20:21

due during the referendum with

George Cameron. They did not produce

0:20:210:20:25

the referendum methodology and we

had to dig them out and we found out

0:20:250:20:31

they used a gravity economic model

which led to a jaundiced forecast

0:20:310:20:36

because there seemed no policy

response. It's a matter of economic

0:20:360:20:40

debate that we can have as to

whether this is going to be negative

0:20:400:20:45

for the British people.

Why hasn't

the government published it? Do you

0:20:450:20:49

think this has been leaked in terms

of a dirty tricks campaign?

I don't

0:20:490:20:53

think the government had any

intention of publishing it. I

0:20:530:20:58

believe official, Minister, leaked

it to try to carry on the fear

0:20:580:21:04

campaign. Much of the government

seems to be still promoting the fear

0:21:040:21:09

campaign which of course didn't win

the referendum for the very reasons

0:21:090:21:14

just described, because people were

thinking about democratic and

0:21:140:21:17

constitutional factors as well as

economic factors.

Is there a drift

0:21:170:21:21

towards a softer Brexit? Not from

the Prime Minister. Generally?

I

0:21:210:21:28

think there are people in the

government of the exchequer as we

0:21:280:21:32

said last week, who are trying to

blow government policy in a

0:21:320:21:35

different direction. It's a terrible

difficulty the Prime Minister is

0:21:350:21:40

having. Coming back to where the

Conservative Party sits on this, the

0:21:400:21:45

vast majority of Conservative MPs

like the vast majority of people in

0:21:450:21:51

business in this country, want us to

get on with us, want to reduce the

0:21:510:21:54

period of uncertainty as possible

and get on with availing ourselves

0:21:540:22:00

of the opportunities. They don't

want this dragged out year after

0:22:000:22:03

year after year.

There is no

majority in parliament for a Brexit

0:22:030:22:09

at any cost, a ultra hard Brexit.

That is the problem Bernard has.

0:22:090:22:15

There's no position like that. The

Conservative Party does not have a

0:22:150:22:17

majority that is strong enough to

push through any particular single

0:22:170:22:22

position. You can see the imparting

of people and say we must compromise

0:22:220:22:26

and those people who say no

compromise and there's not much of a

0:22:260:22:29

compromise between no comp demise

and economise.

What will keep the

0:22:290:22:35

Conservative Party in office is

broader unity in the Conservative

0:22:350:22:38

Party. There are far more people

more broadly sympathetic to my view

0:22:380:22:42

in the Conservative Party.

But you

have been attacking Philip Hammond

0:22:420:22:46

and that does not help you either.

The problem the Prime Minister made

0:22:460:22:51

for herself somewhat as a majority

of people in the Cabinet she doesn't

0:22:510:22:55

have a majority for her policy in

her Cabinet. And I think that is

0:22:550:22:59

making life difficult.

You just

point that the divisions in the

0:22:590:23:05

Conservative Party. It slightly

surreal.

The balance in the Cabinet

0:23:050:23:08

does not reflect the party.

Wended

Philip Hammond say he did not want

0:23:080:23:12

to leave the customs union?

Let's

not get over this game but he

0:23:120:23:19

praised the speech of the CBI which

was arguing we should remain in a

0:23:190:23:22

customs union. Stephen Hammond just

said he is promoting that policy.

0:23:220:23:28

That is not the policy of the

government, not the policy of the

0:23:280:23:32

prime and as a. The Prime Minister

has never hinted we will be in a

0:23:320:23:35

customs union after we have finally

gone through it.

Do you think that

0:23:350:23:38

could be the end result though?

Before Christmas, we should be in

0:23:380:23:46

the regular to presume to the single

market was published, and that has

0:23:460:23:49

been adopted by the CBI, and...

They

are split.

I think that is where we

0:23:490:23:56

will land if you want to honour the

referendum result whilst also secure

0:23:560:24:01

and economic picture.

What will you

do if that happens?

It's interesting

0:24:010:24:06

when Jeremy Hunt wrote an article

just after the referendum, he made

0:24:060:24:09

it clear if we finish up in

something like this Norway model,

0:24:090:24:15

then there would have to be another

referendum.

Do you agree?

If the

0:24:150:24:21

government is going to reverse the

substantive decision taken by the

0:24:210:24:24

British people that we would leave

the European Union, leave the single

0:24:240:24:27

market, the customs union, all the

policies the government set out in

0:24:270:24:31

the Lancaster house speech, the

policies, the manifesto, if we have

0:24:310:24:35

to reverse all that, it will cause

some ructions, some serious

0:24:350:24:41

disturbance and just bear this in

mind. One thing we have seen is

0:24:410:24:45

basically Ukip is destroyed. The

referendum has decided this matter.

0:24:450:24:49

If the government, the establishment

starts dragging this back to some

0:24:490:24:54

half in, half out watched Brexit,

there will be a very unhappy

0:24:540:25:00

political situation in this country.

The end of the Conservative Party?

0:25:000:25:04

The vast majority of them are

aligned with the British people and

0:25:040:25:08

I believe the majority of the real

business people, not these sort

0:25:080:25:12

of...

Are you saying it will end the

Conservative Party in government?

0:25:120:25:19

This is existential stuff. For

political parties. It's certainly

0:25:190:25:26

the divisions in the Labour Party

just as serious as the Conservative

0:25:260:25:30

Party. When you say there's no

majority in the House of Commons for

0:25:300:25:34

what you call a hard Brexit,

honouring the result of the

0:25:340:25:37

referendum, actually there was no

majority in parliament before the

0:25:370:25:41

referendum for leaving the EU at

all. Is that the opinion reflected

0:25:410:25:45

in what the outcome is? I think the

Conservative Party reflects public

0:25:450:25:49

opinion and the vast majority is

united about that and I think we

0:25:490:25:52

will produce a majority in

parliament and increment it.

Bernard

0:25:520:25:56

Jenkin, thank you.

0:25:560:25:57

Whilst all this is going on,

the European Withdrawal Bill

0:25:570:25:59

has its second reading in the Lords

today and tomorrow.

0:25:590:26:02

It's going to be a busy couple

of days, with around 200

0:26:020:26:04

Lords scheduled to speak.

0:26:040:26:06

Many Brexit supporters have

expressed concerns that the Lords,

0:26:060:26:08

which is packed full of pro-EU

peers, could try

0:26:080:26:10

to scupper the bill.

0:26:100:26:12

The session started

just over an hour ago.

0:26:120:26:14

Here's a flavour of

what's been said so far.

0:26:140:26:17

My Lords, this bill

is not about revisiting

0:26:170:26:19

the arguments of the referendum.

0:26:190:26:22

It is not about our future

relationship with the EU.

0:26:220:26:24

Nor is it a vehicle

for policy change.

0:26:240:26:27

It is only part of the programme

of legislation required to honour

0:26:270:26:31

the referendum result.

0:26:310:26:36

Just as the first say on Brexit

was given to the people,

0:26:360:26:39

so the final say should rest

with the people once

0:26:390:26:42

they see the terms proposed

by the government.

0:26:420:26:47

Our constitutional role,

my Lords, is to ensure,

0:26:470:26:49

with the House of Commons,

that the people have the final say.

0:26:490:26:55

At a time when the country really

needs strong and stable government

0:26:550:27:00

we have instead consistent

and persistent reports of a weak

0:27:000:27:04

Prime Minister buffeted from one

position to another as she tries

0:27:040:27:08

to bring order to warring

factions in her Cabinet.

0:27:080:27:13

I'm joined from Central Lobby

by Baroness Smith, who's the Labour

0:27:130:27:15

leader in the Lords,

and by the Conservative

0:27:150:27:17

Peer Lord Forsyth.

0:27:170:27:24

Welcome to both of you. Michael, is

the bill as it currently stands

0:27:240:27:28

constitutionally unacceptable as a

committee of your colleagues has

0:27:280:27:31

warned?

If you read the rest of the

sentence in that excellent report

0:27:310:27:36

from the constitutional committee,

it says it is capable of, necessary

0:27:360:27:41

of being amended, to be effective

and I'm sure that's what the House

0:27:410:27:45

of Lords will do and we got off to a

very good start this morning with

0:27:450:27:49

both speeches from both

frontbenchers indicating we are

0:27:490:27:53

determined not to delay or defeat

Brexit, but actually to make sure

0:27:530:27:57

the bill, which is about bringing

European legislation into our

0:27:570:28:03

domestic law, was consistent with

our constitutional requirements and

0:28:030:28:06

able to be done effectively. I have

to say, there's a lot to be done.

0:28:060:28:11

Angela Smith, what changes do you

want to see made in the Lords?

Quite

0:28:110:28:15

significant changes from all sides,

basically this transitional

0:28:150:28:20

arrangement that it sorted out, this

issue of devolution of the

0:28:200:28:24

government taking powers which

should rightly be going back to

0:28:240:28:26

Scotland, Northern Ireland and

Wales. Won the theme which runs

0:28:260:28:31

through this legislation across the

house, it's what known as Henry VIII

0:28:310:28:36

powers, and that means if we are

taking these laws back into the UK,

0:28:360:28:39

they should be under parliament not

lost at the whim of a ministerial

0:28:390:28:46

pen. It's the constitutional issues.

For most people, this bill is will

0:28:460:28:50

he boring, it's not about Brexit and

whether it happens but how we bring

0:28:500:28:54

those laws we have contributed to in

the last 40 years, back into UK law

0:28:540:29:01

for the it's quite technical to get

this right.

There is a principal at

0:29:010:29:05

the heart of this about how much

power the executive should have and

0:29:050:29:09

Michael Forsyth, your colleagues say

tackling the controversial Henry

0:29:090:29:13

VIII powers clause, this is not a

country with the executive is

0:29:130:29:16

allowed to take decisions and

overwrite Parliamentary scrutiny, at

0:29:160:29:20

the moment, is that the case?

You

have to laugh at the irony that

0:29:200:29:24

position because of the moment these

powers exercised by unelected

0:29:240:29:29

commissioners in Europe. What we are

doing is moving from a situation

0:29:290:29:32

where the regulation which covers

this country over which parliament

0:29:320:29:36

does not have a view, to one where

parliament will be able to decide

0:29:360:29:40

these matters and that is quite a

tricky thing to do because we are

0:29:400:29:44

having to take regulations which

perhaps are not in statute or made

0:29:440:29:48

at a European level and translate

them into domestic legislation and

0:29:480:29:52

after this bill is being passed, it

will be possible once again for

0:29:520:29:56

Parliament to decide every matter

which affects our people.

Isn't that

0:29:560:30:02

the point, Angela Smith?

The point

is we have contributed to these

0:30:020:30:06

laws. It's not just done by Europe

but there's been British involvement

0:30:060:30:10

and we've welcomed it. Quite often

we been the driver of environmental

0:30:100:30:14

legislation and the likes of people

at work, but Michael is absolutely

0:30:140:30:17

right that if you bring it back into

UK law, is as we intend to do, what

0:30:170:30:22

you can't do then is set up to

ministers at a whim to change them.

0:30:220:30:25

It has to be a matter of Parliament

and if things are to improve as

0:30:250:30:28

Michael has said, it has to be

parliament who decide not just

0:30:280:30:33

individuals. I think this agreement

across the house about that about

0:30:330:30:37

why you will see significant changes

in the Bill in the laws that were

0:30:370:30:40

resisted in the Commons but across

all parties and then in the House of

0:30:400:30:45

Lords, recognised that our

constitutional principles are at

0:30:450:30:47

stake here.

0:30:470:30:51

Angela Smith said this was not

really about Brexit but actually,

0:30:510:30:59

the Labour Lord Andrew Adonis has

said that he intends to sabotage

0:30:590:31:03

exit - what do you say to that,

Michael Forsyth?

I think he should

0:31:030:31:07

look to his position. We are not

elected, the House of Commons has

0:31:070:31:11

got to have the final say. He moved

an amendment which provided for a

0:31:110:31:17

second referendum. The House of

Lords considered that a year ago and

0:31:170:31:20

it was defeated by a majority of

200. We recognise that the House of

0:31:200:31:25

Lords is there to tidy up the mess

which is left often by the House of

0:31:250:31:29

Commons in legislation, and in this

case there are serious matters

0:31:290:31:32

regarding the Henry VIII powers and

I hope the government will listen

0:31:320:31:35

and I hope that the bill will be

amended and we'll go back to the

0:31:350:31:39

House of Commons and the House of

Commons will take cognizance of

0:31:390:31:42

quite good advice, but there is no

appetite on the House of Lords on

0:31:420:31:46

either side to challenge Brexit or

to challenge the authority of the

0:31:460:31:50

House of Commons, which is the

elected house.

How far is Labour

0:31:500:31:53

prepared to go on the basis of what

Andrew Adonis has said?

Actually

0:31:530:31:59

this bill belay you voted against it

all it would harm is the protections

0:31:590:32:04

that we have gained through Europe

over a number of years. What we want

0:32:040:32:07

to see is a bill which is fit for

purpose and which puts those

0:32:070:32:11

sections which we have fought for

properly into UK law, but in the

0:32:110:32:17

future Parliament must decide, not

just a minister. I predict we will

0:32:170:32:20

see significant amendments and also

support from all parties in the

0:32:200:32:26

House of Lords and significant

majorities.

The report today,

0:32:260:32:31

busting the Brexit myth, which calls

for the Labour leadership to get off

0:32:310:32:34

the fence on Brexit - do you think

that's what they should do?

I don't

0:32:340:32:38

think they're on the fence on

Brexit. We are not in charge of the

0:32:380:32:43

negotiations, Theresa May is. But

one of the great games is that

0:32:430:32:48

Theresa May has ruled out the single

market and Customs union before she

0:32:480:32:51

even starts negotiations. We have to

recognise that if the position is

0:32:510:32:56

taken to come out of the EU, and

coming out of the customs union and

0:32:560:33:01

single market, but we then will have

to negotiate, and these are issues

0:33:010:33:06

which have served us very well in

this country, so I would like to

0:33:060:33:10

renegotiate a position, certainly as

close as we can. But in the

0:33:100:33:16

transition period we're saying that

we must have the same basic terms as

0:33:160:33:20

now, remaining in the customs union

and single market.

Michael Forsyth,

0:33:200:33:24

you do not agree with that and you

said to the Prime Minister that she

0:33:240:33:27

needs to get a grip on her Cabinet -

is the party falling apart on

0:33:270:33:31

Europe?

I don't think, so the on the

issue of the customs union and the

0:33:310:33:35

single market, the House of Commons

voted on Mary SNP amendment by a

0:33:350:33:40

majority of more than 200 against

the proposal that we should remain

0:33:400:33:45

in both, so the House of Commons has

given a clear view, as has the

0:33:450:33:49

people in the referendum. And it is

for both Houses of Parliament to

0:33:490:33:53

reflect that and for the Cabinet to

get behind the Prime Minister to

0:33:530:33:56

deliver what the people voted for.

But these are still negotiations we

0:33:560:34:01

are having about the future

relationship with the EU 27. What I

0:34:010:34:05

find astounding is the thing which

has not been mentioned is the

0:34:050:34:09

honesty of the debate. Today we have

heard about the impact analysis

0:34:090:34:13

which has been done by the

government which they're keeping

0:34:130:34:17

from the public and from Parliament.

Decisions have to be made on our

0:34:170:34:21

future relationship and they should

be made on the basis of the facts.

0:34:210:34:25

Should they be published, Michael

Forsyth?

I have got the Governor of

0:34:250:34:30

the Bank of England coming to my

committee this afternoon and I am

0:34:300:34:33

going to ask him about these

projections as to what is going to

0:34:330:34:37

happen to the economy, which have

proved to be completely wrong. I

0:34:370:34:40

think we need to look at our

forecasting models in this country,

0:34:400:34:44

because I think they're destroying

the credibility of the Treasury and

0:34:440:34:48

also of the Bank of England.

Thank

you to both of you.

0:34:480:34:54

Hardly a day goes by without calls

for more money to go

0:34:550:34:58

into the NHS, but is just extra

funding the answer?

0:34:580:35:00

Lord Darzi, one of the country's top

surgeons who also served as a health

0:35:000:35:04

minister under the last Labour

government, argues that much more

0:35:040:35:06

reform is needed to ensure

the NHS stays relevent.

0:35:060:35:08

He's started a review

into what needs to be done

0:35:080:35:11

for Tom's think tank,

the IPPR, and before that,

0:35:110:35:13

Professor Darzi has spoken to us

about why there's such an urgent

0:35:130:35:16

All political parties

declare their affection for the NHS

0:35:250:35:29

and promise to protect it.

0:35:290:35:31

There is a strong cross-party

consensus in favour of retaining

0:35:310:35:35

a health service that is based

on need and not the ability to pay.

0:35:350:35:41

Yet enormous questions remain

about how we deliver

0:35:410:35:48

this in years to come.

0:35:480:35:51

How do we make sure every

patient gets high quality

0:35:510:35:53

care when they need it?

0:35:530:35:55

How do we join up care around

the patient and keep them out

0:35:550:36:00

of hospitals like this one

for as long as possible?

0:36:000:36:03

How will we keep up

with advances in technologies,

0:36:030:36:05

in therapies and in treatments?

0:36:050:36:08

And how will we fund

a health and care system

0:36:080:36:11

in a sustainable way in the future?

0:36:110:36:15

Philip Hammond, the Chancellor,

rightly put more money

0:36:150:36:17

into the NHS in his budget.

0:36:170:36:20

But the service has still endured

the most austere decade

0:36:200:36:24

in its history while funding

for social care has declined

0:36:240:36:29

almost every year since

the start of the decade.

0:36:290:36:34

As a result, we are seeing

signs of a system under

0:36:340:36:36

strain all around us.

0:36:360:36:38

Patients left in corridors.

0:36:380:36:41

Operations cancelled

and a deficit on the rise.

0:36:410:36:44

Simply demanding more for less

or promising more money

0:36:440:36:47

without a plan for better care,

isn't good enough.

0:36:470:36:53

The real reasons why change

in the NHS is so necessary

0:36:530:36:56

is poorly understood.

0:36:560:36:59

The health service doesn't

need to change just

0:36:590:37:01

because politicians say so.

0:37:010:37:05

It needs to change because

the nature of disease burden has

0:37:050:37:08

changed because scientific

breakthroughs and new technologies

0:37:080:37:11

allow us to deliver more

efficient and effective care.

0:37:110:37:16

In short, high-quality care

is a constantly moving target.

0:37:160:37:19

To stand still is to fall back.

0:37:190:37:22

This year, the NHS turns 70.

0:37:220:37:24

It is a vital friend to millions.

0:37:240:37:29

It's there for us at our greatest

moment of need but I want to see it

0:37:290:37:33

not just survive but thrive.

0:37:330:37:36

After all, the NHS deserves a secure

future that gives us confidence it

0:37:360:37:40

will celebrate its centenary in 30

years from now.

0:37:400:37:44

Listening to that was

the Conservative MP Helen Whately,

0:37:440:37:52

who used to sit on the Health Select

committee and has previously worked

0:37:530:37:56

in the health sector,

0:37:560:37:58

and Unite's Assistant General

Secretary

Gail Cartmail.

0:37:580:38:02

Art any of the parties in your mind

ambitious enough with their plans to

0:38:020:38:08

reform and fund the NHS?

Well, we

need to have a combination of both

0:38:080:38:12

more money put into the NHS but then

a plan of what to do with it. And at

0:38:120:38:17

the moment none of the parties have

put both of those pieces together.

0:38:170:38:21

What are you suggesting in terms of

major and radical reform affect the

0:38:210:38:25

extra funding?

First off, we think

we need a long-term funding

0:38:250:38:29

settlement for the Health Service.

Like Jeremy Hunt suggested?

Well,

0:38:290:38:33

he's raised the question, there

hasn't been a commit them to,

0:38:330:38:36

actually. First of all, what is the

long-term settlement hammered but

0:38:360:38:40

then a plan to spend the money in

the right way. One thing which is

0:38:400:38:44

clear is that spending the money on

the NHS without properly investing

0:38:440:38:47

in social care isn't going to solve

the problems of the Health Service

0:38:470:38:51

by itself. And we also need to

understand how to make sense of a

0:38:510:38:55

system which has becoming credibly

fragmented. The reforms of recent

0:38:550:38:59

years since 2012 have broken up the

NHS into such a small pieces that

0:38:590:39:03

it's very, very, very hard for

patients to navigate it, for doctors

0:39:030:39:08

to get to know which other

professionals they should be talking

0:39:080:39:10

to, and we need to make sense of a

system which has become really quite

0:39:100:39:14

out.

But that is quite a long-term

review and it has gone through a

0:39:140:39:20

top-down reorganisation, the NHS,

does it really need another one?

I

0:39:200:39:24

think it needs some of the problems

in the current system to be fixed.

0:39:240:39:28

The idea that you can simply say, we

had a bad set of reforms, but they

0:39:280:39:32

now need to endure for ever, doesn't

make any sense. I think everybody in

0:39:320:39:38

the Health Service agrees that this

is something which needs to be done

0:39:380:39:40

as pass it has become far too

complicated for both patients

0:39:400:39:43

professionals.

Helen, last week,

Theresa May declined to act on a

0:39:430:39:49

cross-party letter signed by 90 MPs,

many of them Conservatives, calling

0:39:490:39:54

for more collaboration on the future

of the NHS and social care - does

0:39:540:39:59

she lacked ambition?

I think she has

ambition for the NHS, I think the

0:39:590:40:02

Conservative government as a whole

does, the problem with these cause

0:40:020:40:07

for something like a royal

commission is that it risks kicking

0:40:070:40:10

it into the long grass, when

actually this is a problem we have

0:40:100:40:15

to address here and now, to make

sure we have a sustainable health

0:40:150:40:18

care system and particularly the

social care challenge, which I think

0:40:180:40:22

is really, really important, to work

out as a country the way that we

0:40:220:40:26

fund social care and we achieve the

coming together of health and social

0:40:260:40:30

care so that it operates more like

one system and so you don't have

0:40:300:40:33

that awful situation which I have

had with relatives where you end up

0:40:330:40:38

with them spending weeks if not

months in hospital when they would

0:40:380:40:40

be much better off it at home in a

care home, wherever they were living

0:40:400:40:46

before, instead of in hospital for

weeks.

Right now the only plan there

0:40:460:40:52

is is to, through without a plan,

and that isn't good enough. What

0:40:520:40:55

wasn't mentioned in your package is

that Lord Darzi is working with

0:40:550:40:59

David prior, recently Minister of

State for health under the current

0:40:590:41:05

government, and Norman Lamb from the

Liberal Democrats, and the report

0:41:050:41:08

which is guide to be done by June.

So actually an interim report on

0:41:080:41:12

funding in March to come up with a

plan on long-term funding and a

0:41:120:41:16

reform than in time for the 70th

anniversary, I don't think that is

0:41:160:41:20

kicking it into the long grass.

Is

it just about money?

I don't think

0:41:200:41:24

so, I think there is a lack of

confidence in the NHS workforce,

0:41:240:41:28

that really anybody has a plan. They

have had a real terms pay cut of 20%

0:41:280:41:35

since 2010, the NHS has the least

funding that it has ever had since

0:41:350:41:40

2010, 1% per year, compared with 4%

average. And morale is absolutely

0:41:400:41:46

rock bottom. So, we need some

building blocks. One building block

0:41:460:41:50

needs to be good funding, adequate

funding, but another building block

0:41:500:41:53

should be bringing social care into

health, not more health into social

0:41:530:42:00

care. Councils across the country

have suffered 40% cuts and at the

0:42:000:42:06

same time public health has been put

into their domain, meaning that

0:42:060:42:11

health visitors, much-needed health

visitors, are being cut. District

0:42:110:42:16

nurses in some areas are being cut.

So, we need strong foundations, good

0:42:160:42:22

building blocks, adequate funding,

but importantly, consultation.

0:42:220:42:25

Consultation with the staff, the

clinicians, the people who keep our

0:42:250:42:30

hospitals and community services

running, and consultation with the

0:42:300:42:33

community, because at the moment,

43% of all clinical contracts last

0:42:330:42:38

year went into the private sector,

and commercial confidentiality cuts

0:42:380:42:42

out staff consultation about whether

that's the right thing for patients

0:42:420:42:46

and clients.

Let's go back to your

first point about councils being

0:42:460:42:50

stripped of so much of the cash

which would have gone into social

0:42:500:42:53

care - was this a mistake?

I looked

into this with Kent County Council

0:42:530:42:58

and actually since 2010 they have

been putting more money into social

0:42:580:43:01

care. So, overall the budgets for

local authorities have been squeezed

0:43:010:43:07

suddenly individual authorities have

prioritised social care and actually

0:43:070:43:09

increased the funding. They have

also increased the number of health

0:43:090:43:12

visitors. So, some of this is the

priorities councils are making.

The

0:43:120:43:18

figures nationally are a 27% cut in

social care at a time of rising

0:43:180:43:23

demand. If Kent has bucked that

trend I would love to hear more

0:43:230:43:26

about it. But suddenly the national

trend is a 27% cut in social care. I

0:43:260:43:32

don't think you can sustain that

position, Helen, much as I wish you

0:43:320:43:36

could. But we have had really brutal

cuts to social care and you can't

0:43:360:43:42

fix the problems of the NHS without

fixing social care. The reason for

0:43:420:43:46

that is that at any moment now in

the NHS, 30% of patients in hospital

0:43:460:43:51

right now are medically fit to go

home but they don't have the social

0:43:510:43:55

care packages to enable them to do

so. Not fixing that problem is...

I

0:43:550:44:00

agree. In my own local hospital we

are having this conversation about

0:44:000:44:05

the 30%, bass were we able to get

this right, we would have around 300

0:44:050:44:09

beds available for the people...

But

when Theresa May raised the issue of

0:44:090:44:16

social care and how it should be

funded in the manifesto, she lost

0:44:160:44:19

her majority?

So, the proposal in

the manifesto did not go down well

0:44:190:44:25

and I am sorry about that but...

You

supported that idea?

I supported as

0:44:250:44:29

putting more money into social care.

But the way it would be funded with

0:44:290:44:34

the floor that was suggested?

I

think we have to look at making sure

0:44:340:44:38

that the whole cost of rising health

care and social care doesn't all

0:44:380:44:42

come from the income tax of working

age population, who we know are

0:44:420:44:46

struggling compared with people of

older age.

Is that a radical way of

0:44:460:44:50

thinking about it?

There is nothing

wrong with a system where everybody

0:44:500:44:54

pays in and everybody gets out. The

problem with social care is that

0:44:540:44:58

councils are so strapped, they're

paying into the care of vulnerable

0:44:580:45:05

people £2 an hour. That is not

sustainable. In your constituency,

0:45:050:45:10

Helen, you've got care homes closing

down. There is a broken model in

0:45:100:45:15

adult social care. It is a business

model, it is broken and we've got to

0:45:150:45:19

fix it, so we need a national care

service.

One way of doing it is to

0:45:190:45:24

ration what the NHS does - would you

support some drastic rationing?

0:45:240:45:33

I think the priority list of fun

social care. What about paying for

0:45:330:45:39

services?

The NHS has already been

rationed, let's be clear, so waiting

0:45:390:45:43

times are a method of rationing,

they are rising in the NHS, for

0:45:430:45:46

planned operations, AMD, GP

appointments, and all of that is a

0:45:460:45:52

form of rationing, so how do you

restrict the amount you spend? You

0:45:520:45:55

make people wait so that's a form of

rationing which is underway. There

0:45:550:45:59

are other forms of rationing about

access to advanced treatments,

0:45:590:46:03

therapies which also happening at

the same time so rationing is

0:46:030:46:06

already here. And mental health

services hugely.

On that basis, we

0:46:060:46:12

have to end up thank you both very

much.

0:46:120:46:14

It's not just the NHS that's under

pressure for more money.

0:46:140:46:17

You may remember the government set

out a new National Funding formula

0:46:170:46:20

for schools in England last year

to try to address discrepancies

0:46:200:46:22

in the amount of money schools

received across the country.

0:46:220:46:25

So all fine now?

0:46:250:46:26

Well, no.

0:46:260:46:27

A group called Worth Less,

which represents thousands

0:46:270:46:30

of schools across England is claming

that there is a still a vast unfair

0:46:300:46:33

difference between the highest

and lowest funded schools.

0:46:330:46:37

We can speak to head

teacher and the campaign's

0:46:370:46:39

organiser Jules White.

0:46:390:46:47

The government insists more money is

going into schools year-on-year. And

0:46:470:46:51

that they are going to have a fairer

formula with winners and losers. Do

0:46:510:46:55

you accept that?

I think there's

some differences there. Over the

0:46:550:47:01

past five years, the government was

planning to take 3 billion out of

0:47:010:47:05

schools and decided to put 1.3

billion back which have helped some

0:47:050:47:09

of our budgets but it is simply, we

are facing cuts right across the

0:47:090:47:14

board and in terms of the National

funding formula, unfortunately it

0:47:140:47:18

has been put forward for April but

it is full of caps and arbitrary

0:47:180:47:25

increases, so it's not really being

implemented in the way it should be.

0:47:250:47:29

As a consequence, thousands of

schools up and down the country are

0:47:290:47:33

still facing a financial crisis and

there are simply huge differences

0:47:330:47:36

between those who have and those who

have not.

In terms of your school,

0:47:360:47:40

will it be getting more money?

Yes,

we do get some money. We were raised

0:47:400:47:47

from the very bottom threshold so

every student in my school will rise

0:47:470:47:53

to £4600 per pupil per that compares

to London authorities where pupils

0:47:530:47:56

are funded at over £7,000, so if you

take my school, 1500 pupils, my

0:47:560:48:02

budget is £6.5 million for April

2018. School of exactly the same in

0:48:020:48:09

Hackney is funded at £11.2 million.

£4.5 million more, and to give you

0:48:090:48:17

some idea, £1 million would buy me

approximately 30 teachers, 60

0:48:170:48:25

teaching assisted Chilterns,

countless text books and equipment,

0:48:250:48:27

and my school is now struggling to

survive. We want a much better deal

0:48:270:48:33

for our families.

In order to set a

new formula, do you accept it's

0:48:330:48:38

based on the need and

characteristics of each individual

0:48:380:48:41

school and there may be very good

reasons that those London schools

0:48:410:48:44

you mentioned are getting more money

than your school?

Absolutely, skills

0:48:440:48:50

have to be funded differently

according to needs and deprivation

0:48:500:48:53

but as I've said, the new national

funding formula is not being

0:48:530:48:57

promoted like that for top London

schools got a 0.5% but most schools

0:48:570:49:01

across the country, even though they

were lagging behind, where capita 3%

0:49:010:49:06

because the government is taking

money out of our system during the

0:49:060:49:11

lifetime of this Parliament and the

figures we are quoting all come from

0:49:110:49:16

the Department for Education. I'm

not making them up. Schools in an

0:49:160:49:19

area like very, they are funded at

£4800 per pupil. In nearby

0:49:190:49:28

Manchester, it's well over £6,000 so

that equates to 1200 pupils, one

0:49:280:49:33

school funded a £1.5 million less.

Those differences are absolutely

0:49:330:49:38

huge. OK, thank you for joining us.

0:49:380:49:41

With me now is shadow

schools minister Mike Kane

0:49:410:49:43

and Conservative MP Chris Philp.

0:49:430:49:45

Listening to that, if you look at

the figures, there's no real terms

0:49:450:49:50

increase when you take into account

rising costs of these schools and

0:49:500:49:54

increased pupil numbers.

Up until

2015, it was rising and there was a

0:49:540:50:00

two-year period from 2015 - 17, when

it went down a bit. However, from

0:50:000:50:08

this April onwards, extra money is

being put into... The budget is 41

0:50:080:50:15

million. Next year it is 42.4 and

the after 43.5, so with being

0:50:150:50:21

protected and going up.

You're still

ignoring the fact it's not enough

0:50:210:50:27

when compared with the parallel

rising costs of running the schools

0:50:270:50:31

and teachers wages and salaries and

increased pupil numbers.

If you take

0:50:310:50:36

those increases I laid out and think

about increase in inflation, pupils

0:50:360:50:41

numbers, schools will see slight

increases all be protected so that's

0:50:410:50:44

being addressed going forward. It's

looking at international comparisons

0:50:440:50:49

because of the 32 countries, we come

sixth, for education funding ahead

0:50:490:50:53

of France, Germany, Japan and

Australia. Those international

0:50:530:50:58

comparisons are quite illuminating

as well.

Why are their schools

0:50:580:51:03

having to make the sort of cuts that

actually led to many people making

0:51:030:51:07

this the issue that they voted on it

in the election and it wasn't for

0:51:070:51:13

the Conservatives?

We recognise

there was an issue here because of

0:51:130:51:18

that 2015-17 period.

It was a

mistake, wasn't it?

It will hit

0:51:180:51:24

classrooms in April. What's

important is not just the amount of

0:51:240:51:26

money put in but the results

achieved and over the last seven

0:51:260:51:31

years, 1.9 million more children are

in good and outstanding schools than

0:51:310:51:34

seven years ago so the money is

important but outcomes are important

0:51:340:51:38

or so and they are very good indeed.

What do you say to that? Chris

0:51:380:51:44

hasn't taken into factor there's

more children in the school system,

0:51:440:51:48

inflation is running ahead of

ordinary inflation, pension

0:51:480:51:51

contributions, the apprentice ship

levy, and the fact is the National

0:51:510:51:55

Audit Office are telling us that

this government is taking £2.7

0:51:550:52:00

billion out of the system from 2015

until the end...

Chris Gold has

0:52:000:52:04

admitted there was a lag in funding

for those two years. What do so are

0:52:040:52:09

the numbers of children in better

schools according to the government?

0:52:090:52:14

1.9 is a sadistic. Those schools

were identified as coasting schools

0:52:140:52:21

so they are dining out on our

record. If you look at the Key stage

0:52:210:52:28

two stats, the differentiation

between those on free school meals

0:52:280:52:31

doing well with huge inequality is

going up. Phonics has gone back.

0:52:310:52:37

Justine Greening and Michael Gove

made these international targets

0:52:370:52:40

that we compare our standards

with... In 2010, let me just

0:52:400:52:46

finished, we are going down in these

indicators.

Is that the case in

0:52:460:52:52

maths, English and science?

Our

schools are better now than they

0:52:520:52:55

were seven years ago.

In what way?

You need to give evidence.

According

0:52:550:53:02

to Ofsted, 1.9 million children has

gone from 57% up to 89%. I'm proud

0:53:020:53:08

to say in the last seven years the

attainment gap between children from

0:53:080:53:12

deprived backgrounds and average

background has narrowed by 10% said

0:53:120:53:17

those children from deprived

backgrounds are doing better now

0:53:170:53:18

than they were seven years ago. That

is the measure of a compassionate

0:53:180:53:24

effective education system.

It

depends which measures you use but

0:53:240:53:27

why is it some schools in England

receive 50% less money than an

0:53:270:53:31

identically sized school?

For

historic reasons. These four minutes

0:53:310:53:37

go back decades.

They should have

addressed this.

That will come into

0:53:370:53:42

force from April. It's going to

migrate over a period of three years

0:53:420:53:47

full it won't be like flicking a

switch where everything changes in

0:53:470:53:49

one year. As he said, for schools

underfunded which includes secondary

0:53:490:53:55

schools in Croydon, they will have

their funding increased by 3% over

0:53:550:54:00

three or four years until they have

caught up so they deserve about a

0:54:000:54:05

10-12% increase which will come in

over a four year period.

What are

0:54:050:54:10

they supposed to do in the meantime?

If you hear about that Twickenham

0:54:100:54:14

slims down, parents being asked to

give money to the local primary and

0:54:140:54:18

secondary schools because of these

budget cuts, on those two years and

0:54:180:54:22

going forward until the new funding

formulae is bedded down, what are

0:54:220:54:25

these skills are supposed to do?

That money will hit schools in two

0:54:250:54:30

months so Croydon which I represent

will get an above inflation

0:54:300:54:32

per-pupil increase in about two

months. And accelerate after that.

0:54:320:54:39

What the numbers suggest is a real

terms cut in education spending

0:54:390:54:42

between now and 2020, the first time

the schools budget has...

That's not

0:54:420:54:49

right.

How is that expressing

itself, its expressing itself in

0:54:490:54:54

terms of the workforce and we have

the lowest teacher tenure in the

0:54:540:54:58

OECD and the international evidence

shows you the best way to get the

0:54:580:55:01

best results in schools is great

teachers. If teachers are leaving

0:55:010:55:04

the profession in droves come and be

at the lowest teacher attendance in

0:55:040:55:08

the OECD, we are storing up now

problems for now and the future.

0:55:080:55:13

Because they have a good numbers of

children, since 2011, a third of

0:55:130:55:18

teachers who are trained already

left. UCAS have said they are 29%

0:55:180:55:25

down on their recruitment figures

for next September. This recruitment

0:55:250:55:28

and retention disaster has only been

exacerbated by this schools cuts

0:55:280:55:35

programme.

We have to lead it there.

Thank you very much for coming in.

0:55:350:55:40

He's seen off the education blob,

the Remain campaign

0:55:400:55:43

Five animal rights charities

have criticised the move

0:55:430:55:45

arguing that the squirrels

are being scapegoated.

0:55:450:55:52

Whilst both red and grey

squirrels cause the damage,

0:55:550:55:58

grey ones are more destructive

because there are more

0:55:580:56:02

of them and they're larger

so they have a greater impact.

0:56:020:56:06

Well, to discuss the proposed cull

we're joined by Craig Shuttleworth

0:56:060:56:09

from Bangor University.

0:56:090:56:11

And by Natalia Doran from the group

Urban Squirrels, which campaigns

0:56:110:56:14

against what she calls

the persecution of grey squirrels.

0:56:140:56:22

What's wrong with culling grey

squirrels? There's too many of them.

0:56:220:56:28

What the animal protection

organisations would like to bring to

0:56:280:56:30

the discussion table is the ethical

aspect of this. We're not talking

0:56:300:56:34

about cutting some grass and

removing benches, but scented

0:56:340:56:39

beings, who feel things. Pain,

pleasure, hopes, expectations, fears

0:56:390:56:43

and those characteristics do not

change just because an animal is not

0:56:430:56:48

native. They don't change

neurologically just because they

0:56:480:56:50

come into conflict with the human

agenda. They should be given moral

0:56:500:56:54

consideration.

Ie taking those

things into account?

Of course, the

0:56:540:56:59

grey squirrels are protected under

various animal welfare act. When

0:56:590:57:03

they're in the wild and caught

inside a live capture trap, so the

0:57:030:57:10

ethics or a big part of the

eradication process. But let's get

0:57:100:57:15

this straight. These are highly

invasive and very damaging economic

0:57:150:57:19

to damaging animal, £40 million a

year to the UK economy, we can't

0:57:190:57:24

grow hardwoods because they strip

the bark and of course they have

0:57:240:57:28

decimated the Reds were a population

in the UK.

What do you say to that?

0:57:280:57:33

There's not much going for the grey

squirrel in that regard.

They have a

0:57:330:57:35

strange Ally, they're not known for

their friendship of squirrels but

0:57:350:57:41

they did conduct research into grey

squirrel damage and found the damage

0:57:410:57:46

to be just 5% whereas the threshold

for destruction is 30% and the

0:57:460:57:51

squirrel don't...

Is your proposal

to extend to cull them even more?

0:57:510:57:58

I'm afraid our posers based in law,

based on the new European directive

0:57:580:58:02

which lists the great spirals --

squirrels as a threat.

We must

0:58:020:58:12

control established populations. You

have killed thousands of these great

0:58:120:58:15

schools in your times are hard

become desensitised?

No, I have

0:58:150:58:21

worked on this for 25 years

restoring the red squirrel back into

0:58:210:58:24

North Wales and also working with

wood landers to try to get around

0:58:240:58:28

this problem of bark stripping full

hugely complicated and at the moment

0:58:280:58:32

were working on a non-lethal method

of control, a contraceptive, and

0:58:320:58:37

that would come in and be integrated

with the other management we have

0:58:370:58:41

but would not stop animals being

cold, but would give us a non-lethal

0:58:410:58:45

method of control we could use in

some circumstances.

Do you accept

0:58:450:58:50

that?

As a combo might it's great

news but the whole culling process

0:58:500:58:56

is predicated on the native nurse

narrative which is a rational

0:58:560:58:59

because it's an academic fashion.

Thank you both very much.

0:58:590:59:03

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:59:030:59:07

The question was what has

the Defence Secretary Gavin

0:59:070:59:09

Williamson reportedly demanded be

removed from the

0:59:090:59:10

Ministry of Defence?

0:59:100:59:11

The answer is EU flags.

0:59:110:59:17

That's all for today.

0:59:170:59:18

Thanks to our guests.

0:59:180:59:20

The One O'Clock News is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:59:200:59:23

Andrew will be here for live

coverage of Prime Minister's

0:59:230:59:25

Questions tomorrow at 11.30.

0:59:250:59:26

Bye bye.

0:59:260:59:29

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS