19/02/2018 Daily Politics


19/02/2018

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LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May says students in England

deserve better value

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for their university degrees

as she launches a comprehensive

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review of post-18 education.

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But is the Government just kicking

the problem in to the long grass?

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The European Parliament's chief

Brexit spokesman

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says Britain is unlikely to get

the bespoke deal it wants.

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He's meeting MPs on the UK

Parliament's Brexit committee today.

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We speak to one of them

live from Brussels.

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And, apart from the annual

political pancake day race

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it's been a little quiet

in Westminster over the last week

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as Parliament has been

on half-term recess.

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But as MPs head back to big smoke

we've got all the details of what's

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in store over the next seven days.

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And, after Formula One decides

to drop its "grid girls",

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we speak to an academic who argues

that it is in fact

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a

retrograde

step for women.

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Women should be able

to earn their living

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doing whatever they want,

including modelling, stripping,

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lap dancing, Page 3 photoshoots,

burlesque shows.

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Yes, all that coming

up in the next hour.

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Parliament is in fact

still in recess today,

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but we've managed to find two

dedicated public servants

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willing to cut short

their half-term break by a day!

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Labour's Louise Haigh

and Conservative Rehman Chishti -

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welcome to you both.

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Now MPs from the Brexit Select

committee are in Brussels today

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to have meetings with various high

profile figuers including

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the EU's chief Brexit

negotiator Michel Barnier

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and the European Parliament's chief

Brexit spokesman, Guy Verhofstadt.

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Mr Verhofstadt popped up

on the Andrew Marr show yesterday

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and made some comments that

won't have gone down all that well

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with some people on this

side of the Channel,

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with Andrew Marr asking

whether the government's negotiating

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strategy will be successful.

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It's fairly clear, it's not

completely clear yet,

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what Theresa May is going

to ask for.

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David Davis described it to me

as "Canada plus plus plus".

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And what he meant by that was,

a free-trade deal, no tariffs,

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no nontariff barriers for goods,

cars and so forth.

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But special agreements on things

like financial services.

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That's what they are

going to ask for.

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Again, is that not reasonable,

to do that kind of special

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bespoke arrangement?

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Yeah, but that will not be

the outcome of this negotiation.

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It cannot be the outcome.

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Why not?

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The outcome will be, again,

it will not be a type of saying,

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this is interesting,

that we like.

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This is not interesting for us,

we dislike and we don't want it.

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Craig Mackinlay is a Conservative MP

on the Brexit Select Committee

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and is among the delegation of MPs

meeting Mr Verhofstadt

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in Brussels today.

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We are hoping to speak with him

shortly, but first, my guests here,

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no bespoke deal, is a pretty

influential person, Guy Verhofstadt,

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how disappointed are you?

That kind

of talk has led to British people

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making a decision to determine their

own destiny about laws, money,

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borders, telling us what we can and

cannot do is not the right way

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forward. The British people have

voted to come out of the single

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market, the customs union, the

European Union. We must find a

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special relationship, we will leave

the European Union but still be a

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part of Europe, we want a good

relationship, we want trade with

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European partners, we have the

commitment to find that special

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deal. We will get that. This kind of

talk reinstates wider British public

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voted to determine their own destiny

rather than being told by the

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Europeans.

He is still saying no,

the deal you are asking for one not

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beyond the table.

We are working

very hard to get the best boat

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deal...

He just said no, no bespoke

deal, there will be no Canada plus

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bus plus.

-- the best bespoke deal.

There will be nothing like that.

We

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had a similar kind of issue pushed

to us before when we were trying to

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get the first stage, we made an

agreement on the financial deal, we

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made sure we dealt with the

situation with the Northern Ireland.

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How have you dealt with that? The

situation with Ireland?

The Common

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travel area will be there, we made

it very clear that we will not have

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a hard border, we made it very clear

the Good Friday Agreement will stay

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in place.

How do you do that if

Britain is outside the customs

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union?

Those are the core principles

from which we will not move, those

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negotiations will take place in

relation to detail but our

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principle, having a non-hard border

with Northern Ireland is to the

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heart of it.

Everyone is committed

to it, how do you achieve it if you

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are not part of the customs union

when there will have to be checks on

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goods and goods of origin?

We

achieve it with a brilliant

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Secretary of State for Brexit, with

a great Prime Minister, that is how

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we do it's not what what you think

this being said, that kind of

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language, that kind of telling

Britain what it can and cannot have,

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that led semi-British voters, 17.4

and Ian people to vote to leave.

It

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is that kind of attitude that I'm

afraid to say that has led to the

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position of the European Commission

and the European Union, such a

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hardline approach to gauche Asians.

You think it is a hard line?

It is

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quite a hardline because every other

country has some kind of a spoke

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deal with the European Union, Turkey

has its own customs union with the

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European Union, Norway is in the

single market but not the customs

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union.

They are in the single

market, Britain does not want to be.

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Jersey is in the customs union but

in the single market in relation to

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goods and not services, every other

partner has some kind of the spoke

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deal, I think it is unlikely that

Britain will not get a bespoke deal

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you do not have a fantastic

Secretary of State negotiating

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"Brexit" 's, I must disagree.

We got

through the first stage.

Ireland and

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the European Union, are interpreting

that as member ship of the customs

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union and the single market. Quite

frankly, it is very difficult to

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envisage how we will guarantee no

hard border without membership of

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the customs union or a customs

union.

Is that what the Labour

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policy should be?

The Labour policy

has been, never remove the customs

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union from negotiating party, it is

the ideological approach of the

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Tories of Brexit negotiation that

has slowed a progress and let to

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this difficult negotiating stance on

both sides.

Just to be clear, do you

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want Jeremy Corbyn to state

categorically that Labour supports a

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position of Britain remaining in the

customs union with the EU?

I think

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the position should remain as it is,

we are not taking it off the

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negotiating table, that we are happy

to remain members, we would be happy

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to negotiate a separate customs

union but nothing should be off the

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negotiating table.

INAUDIBLE

...

Single market, outside the

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jurisdiction of the EU.

INAUDIBLE

You are saying, on the customs

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union, in your manifesto, coming

out.

We have always said it should

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not be off the negotiating table.

INAUDIBLE

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I welcome back to this in just a

moment but Craig is now there are,

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you may or may not have heard Guy

Verhofstadt, we played a piece from

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his interview with Andrew Marr where

he said there will be no bespoke

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deal, no Canada plus plus plus, what

do you say to that?

Well, we seem to

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be getting mixed messages, sorry to

be a little late, I have been in a

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meeting with Michel Barnier, seems

that there are offers on the table

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but we seem to have this rather

rigid view that there has to be one

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model or another it cannot be the

spoke, has to be like Canada, Canada

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was mentioned rather a lot, with

some extra bits on security, very

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much outlined in the Prime

Minister's Munich speech. Honestly

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feel that the EU needs to be more

flexible to accommodate Britain

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because what we are forgetting is

that we had a referendum, that

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referendum was to regain control of

the borders and money and laws and

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that has to be respected. The EU

needs to realise that we have a huge

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trade deficit with the EU. It is in

their interest to get a very good

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deal for their own citizens and

their own country.

You say the EU

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needs to do this, how will you

persuade Guy Verhofstadt, you have

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met Michel Barnier, chief

negotiating officer.

I am eating him

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in an hour or so.

What will you say

to him when he says the UK will not

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have a final deal which will see

different arrangements for different

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sectors of the economy, there will

not be special dispensation for

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financial services, he says it is

impossible, how will you persuade

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him to move significantly on this

position?

We ended up not really

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knowing who the controlling mind is

here, we seem to have Guy

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Verhofstadt saying different things

from Michel Barnier, and who knows

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what the EU 27 are thinking. I got

the impression today with Michel

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Barnier that he is worried that the

27 countries will not be moving

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together as one, that is very much a

fear because Germany has a huge

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trade surplus with the UK, 2 million

German jobs reliant on the UK

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market, and I think that ought to be

in their mind, rather more clearly,

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that a deal is not, not just good

for one, it will be good for both,

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positive sum deal, if that requires

a bespoke arrangement acceptable to

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Britain's redlines, they will have

to be soft on redlines as well.

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There is a deal to be done but it

needs flexibility.

What did Michel

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Barnier say to you clearly when he

said that he gave a little bit more,

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he seems to be more flexible than

Guy Verhofstadt, what did he promise

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on Canada type deal?

Canada was

mentioned a lot as a potential

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formulaic.

And obviously, David

Davis has said the same, Canada plus

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plus plus.

Financial services, that

seems to be a very major issue.

And

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that was outlined very clearly,

because of the security of the

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European financial markets, take the

roles or don't say the rules. And

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that is the problem, but this is

where we need some new thinking, new

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thinking of mutual recognition,

looking back at the financial crisis

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2008/9, Australia and Canada had no

bailout of the bank, they have a

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financial system of easily robust.

We need a global view. Certain

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countries are advanced, civilised,

they have usual norms we are all

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familiar with, there should be

mutual acceptance between advanced

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countries that this is the new way

forward for global trade and I think

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Britain can be in the driving seat

for that.

You have made your

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position clear, would it help if

Theresa May was clear on exactly

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what she wants in terms of that

future relationship with the EU?

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Well, that has come out a bit today

as well, with discussions, Michel

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Barnier saying, we would like to

know exactly what the UK Government

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really wants, but from other bits

and pieces on security, I think

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there is a lot of clarity on where

Britain is going on this. That does

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seem to be a message coming forward,

that we do need the UK Government to

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state very clearly what it is after.

I think that will become clear

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before the end of March meeting, of

the ministers. So I think the next

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six weeks are going to be very

important and I am sure there will

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be clarity coming forward from the

UK Government but it is needed, I

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will accept that.

Guy Verhofstadt

has said it is not acceptable to all

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to freedom of movement rules during

transition into and Asian period, do

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you agree with that?

Well I do not,

we are leaving the institution of

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the European Union on the 29th of

March of next year.

-- during

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transitional implementation period.

It seems ridiculous, it has been

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mentioned before, the vassal state

situation we could find ourselves

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in, roll takers, new rules coming

forward, applying them, freedom of

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movement exactly as there is today,

that will not be fulfilling the

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referendum so things must change

after Brexit. The PM is quite right

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with redlines she has put forward.

Thank you very much.

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And for more reporting

and analysis of Brexit,

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check out the BBC News website,

that's bbc.co.uk/brexit.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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It seems that bigmouth strikes

again, the former Smiths singer

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Morrissey has had a go at a senior

politician

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during one of his concerts.

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So our question for today is, who?

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Was it: a) Nicola Sturgeon,

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b) David Cameron,

c) Theresa May,

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or d) Jeremy Corbyn?

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At the end of the show Rehman

and Louise will give

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us the correct answer.

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Later today, Theresa May

will announce an independent review

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of students fees and finance,

because, she'll say,

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students in England currently face

"one of the most expensive systems

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of university tuition in the world".

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The Prime Minister believes

there are "serious concerns" among

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students, parents and grandparents

about the system of student finance,

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concerns that have Labour promising

to abolish fees entirely.

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So what's the situation in the

higher education system currently?

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Almost all courses in England charge

the maximum fee of just

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over £9,000 a year.

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But of course, students don't begin

to pay that money back

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until after graduation

and until they earn £25,000 a year.

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Interest rates fees now

stand at up to 6.1% -

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a figure that has been roundly

denounced by a number

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of senior Tories.

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With some students

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now leaving university with debts

of more than £50,000

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after a three-year course.

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Last year the government

froze fees at £9,250,

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and raised the repayment threshold

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but it clearly thinks

there's more to be done.

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Today, Theresa May will say

an expected competitive market

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in fees hasn't materialised

since the coalition government

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raised the fee cap in 2012.

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The new independent review will look

at setting fees based

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on the cost of a course,

the benefit to the student, and

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the benefit to society as a whole.

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It will also consider

the reintroduction of maintenance

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grants for poorer students,

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which were phased out

in favour of loans in 2016.

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But the government's already

come under fire

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from one senior backbencher,

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former Education Secretary Justine

Greening

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says the fee system shouldn't be

"a political football",

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that looked like it was being

"kicked into the long grass".

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Well, earlier this morning

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Theresa May spoke to ITV's

This Morning programme

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about the planned review.

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Let's see what she had to say.

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Let's see what she had to say.

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What we need to do now is say,

we have a system of fees

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in education, but some

issues have arisen.

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A concern not just for students

themselves, but families, parents,

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grandparents have about the level

of debt that they build up.

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And also a concern that, basically,

universities charge the same,

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whatever course you are doing,

they will charge the same.

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So there are some questions

for universities.

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Theresa May speaking earlier.

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Well, to discuss this we're joined

by David Willetts, he's the chair

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of the Resolution Foundation

think-tank and was the

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Universities Minister

during the coalition government.

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You with the architect who designed

the current system. What do you make

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of the Prime Minister saying there

is something wrong with the current

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student finance system and she

understands peoples concerns?

I

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think there are some concerns and

you covered them in your

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introduction. Interest rates is an

issue. Pressure for students on

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their budgets when they are at

university, so bringing back

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maintenance grants would be a good

thing. But overall, I think a system

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where graduates pay back only when

they are in a well-paid job, is a

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fair and sensible way of funding

higher education.

The Prime Minister

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isn't criticising the core principle

you have just outlined, but she has

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said the competitive market between

universities, the system of variable

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tuition fees envisaged, it has

simply not emerged. That is true,

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and it is a major flaw.

I originally

thought we would see price

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competition, and we haven't seen

that. I think we understand why.

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First of all, students do not pay up

front, which is a good thing, but

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because of that, a graduate

repayment system, saying one course

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is 7000 and another is 8000, isn't

relevant to them. And secondly, when

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you try to work out how you

differentiate these in different

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courses, you rapidly find out there

is no settled view on how to do it.

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It would be very hard. Lots of

people come to me and say we should

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have differential fees, and I ask on

what basis, and they all have

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different models. Trying to say we

should have subjects, or salaries of

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graduates come you soon find you are

in an incredibly complicated system.

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I think this being a contribution

everybody makes to higher education

0:17:440:17:48

that you pay back when you graduate

is a workable model.

You haven't

0:17:480:17:55

addressed the basic criticism from

the Prime Minister that the market

0:17:550:17:58

does not exist to stop almost all

universities charge the maximum.

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That was a core part of the system

you devised and it has failed.

There

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is a market, but it works in a

different way. In the old days when

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it was public spending, the

government allocated a fixed number

0:18:100:18:12

of places to eat university. Now

universities are not financed out of

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public spending, but instead through

the graduate contribution scheme, we

0:18:180:18:23

have lower number controls so more

universities get their first choice.

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Popular universities expand and less

popular universities are shrinking.

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That's not the competition you

expected when you set up the scheme.

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The competition is absolutely one of

the crucial features of the new

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model. Is that we wouldn't have the

government fixing the number of

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places. And universities, more

universities, are able to take more

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students getting their first choice

university because the popular

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universities can expand. Looking at

the adverts on the tube, looked at

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the websites, you will find

universities are absolutely

0:19:000:19:03

competing with each other for

students.

So why is the government

0:19:030:19:07

deciding there needs to be a review,

if there are serious concerns and it

0:19:070:19:11

is working so brilliantly?

I

understand the interest rate

0:19:110:19:15

pressures and pressures on students.

The other issue is parents are

0:19:150:19:19

worried...

That could be dealt with.

A review implies that there is

0:19:190:19:22

something wrong at the heart of the

system. I take your point about the

0:19:220:19:27

way you see the market working. But

the Prime Minister is very specific.

0:19:270:19:32

The level of fees charged do not

relate to the cost or quality of the

0:19:320:19:35

course. Do you think it costs as

much for an arts course, let's take

0:19:350:19:40

a history degree, as it is to study

engineering?

It costs more to

0:19:400:19:46

deliver an engineering course, which

is why there was already in the

0:19:460:19:50

system an extra item of public

spending to help universities with a

0:19:500:19:54

higher cost of engineering, and it

would be a good result from the

0:19:540:19:56

review if they said extra public

resource for high cost subject

0:19:560:20:00

should be increased.

But you

wouldn't want to see courses being

0:20:000:20:03

charged at different levels?

This is

the day after the Baftas. Are we

0:20:030:20:09

supposed to say that doing an arts

subject is less valuable than a

0:20:090:20:13

science subject? We don't know how

the British economy is going to

0:20:130:20:17

develop. I am a free marketeer and I

don't think governments can predict

0:20:170:20:21

the value of individual degrees or

should interfere in individual

0:20:210:20:27

student choices.

Is it fair that a

course that costs 4500 to deliver

0:20:270:20:33

costs more than £9,000 question mark

we don't know of any courses that

0:20:330:20:39

cost 4500 to deliver. You just said

engineering courses cost more.

0:20:390:20:45

Either university needs to charge

less, all that money is still

0:20:450:20:50

available to go into the resources

of the University that can help pay

0:20:500:20:55

for shared university facilities

that all students use.

Isn't it

0:20:550:20:58

damning that the Conservative

government is now effectively saying

0:20:580:21:01

and admitting that its own policy in

higher education hasn't worked?

Not

0:21:010:21:06

at all. What the Conservative Party

is saying that with regards to the

0:21:060:21:11

reforms David Boote Ford, he was a

brilliant minister and I was a

0:21:110:21:14

pleasure to work with him on that,

-- what David puts forward.

So why

0:21:140:21:20

is there a review and the Prime

Minister says there are serious

0:21:200:21:25

concerns from students, parents and

grandparents about the system, the

0:21:250:21:28

whole system, and she shares them.

Let me put it this way. When we came

0:21:280:21:32

into government we made it clear we

want every child to get the best

0:21:320:21:36

education in life. I was the first

in my family to go to university, to

0:21:360:21:39

go on to become a lawyer, barrister

and into bond. My parents didn't

0:21:390:21:42

have a lot of money. I paid my way

to being a young barrister. I want

0:21:420:21:46

every child on merits to get there.

I accept the education and costing

0:21:460:21:51

at the moment which is raised with

me by constituents is very

0:21:510:21:55

expensive.

So would you bring down

these?

We need to look at everything

0:21:550:21:59

will stop this review would look at

ensuring we get the right amount of

0:21:590:22:03

resources for courses. We look at

the issue of interest. Make sure the

0:22:030:22:10

point for students and affordability

is a tad. The point you raise about

0:22:100:22:13

the cost of running those courses,

and also the benefit as to the

0:22:130:22:16

economy as a whole.

You would

interfere in a market in the way

0:22:160:22:23

David Willetts has said the

government should not do?

We need to

0:22:230:22:27

look at the whole aspect. To make

sure we get the right system in

0:22:270:22:32

place and address the issue of cost.

We have one of the most expensive...

0:22:320:22:36

You were responsible, you were in

the coalition government that raised

0:22:360:22:39

the fees.

I wanted to make sure more

people from disadvantaged

0:22:390:22:44

backgrounds were able to go to

higher education, and I am proud

0:22:440:22:47

that.

All the warnings that

children, students from

0:22:470:22:52

disadvantaged families would not and

would stop going to university, that

0:22:520:22:55

has not materialised.

I think that

is right, but over the last year we

0:22:550:23:00

have seen numbers start to drop, the

ratio of numbers between

0:23:000:23:03

disadvantaged students compare to

the most advantaged, is getting

0:23:030:23:07

higher in terms of accessing higher

education. Disadvantaged students

0:23:070:23:12

finish university with much greater

depth than advantaged students,

0:23:120:23:15

57,000 instead of 40 3000. That's

because of the maintenance grant and

0:23:150:23:19

loan is being taken away, and a

system of student fees. They also

0:23:190:23:23

less likely to earn the same amount

as more advantaged students.

Your

0:23:230:23:29

concern is about students from less

well-off families, students who

0:23:290:23:32

struggle to meet some of the cost as

well as having some of the debts

0:23:320:23:36

despite the job they might get at

the end. Do you accept abolishing

0:23:360:23:40

tuition fees would help the very

richest students as well?

It would

0:23:400:23:43

help every student.

Is that the

right way to devise a system?

Is not

0:23:430:23:49

just about the ratio, it's the

culture of debt it creates. Students

0:23:490:23:52

leaving with an average of £50,000

after three years in university is

0:23:520:23:56

not good for the society or the

country. The last financial crash

0:23:560:23:59

started as a result partly as a

consequence of the culture of debt

0:23:590:24:06

in society.

Is it the same student

debt people take out credit cards?

0:24:060:24:11

It is treated differently. Just to

pick on something they have touched

0:24:110:24:16

on here, the variable fees. The

proposals we have seen from the

0:24:160:24:20

secretary of State in the last

couple of days have suggested

0:24:200:24:23

science stem courses should be

charged at a higher rate than arts

0:24:230:24:25

courses. Companies looking at that

thinking, we have a huge skills gap

0:24:250:24:30

in Stem subjects will think, why on

earth would we deter students even

0:24:300:24:34

more than we do currently. It

doesn't look that access to those

0:24:340:24:38

courses at all.

We don't but

students who want to do Stem

0:24:380:24:44

subjects. Listening to the Secretary

of State, he said it's something the

0:24:440:24:48

government will ensure, extra

resources are put in place to

0:24:480:24:51

support Stem subjects. The review

will take into account all aspects

0:24:510:24:55

of supporting students with regards

to Stem subjects to ensure that

0:24:550:24:58

those who can contribute more to the

economy given the support they need.

0:24:580:25:02

This government has been ever eight

years, why does it want another

0:25:020:25:05

review? It's a government that's out

of ideas.

You say it's a

0:25:050:25:10

straightforward scenario where you

would wipe student debt and abolish

0:25:100:25:13

tuition fees, which would cost about

12 billion. And use the same

0:25:130:25:17

money... 11.2 billion, and you would

use corporation tax to pay for that

0:25:170:25:21

and the social health care service

and policing, so the same money goes

0:25:210:25:25

over and over again. Your figures...

Labour has promised to abolish

0:25:250:25:31

tuition fees. Politically, that is

difficult for the Conservative Party

0:25:310:25:34

to ever match.

I don't think we

should match it. The trouble is, if

0:25:340:25:40

I had £11 billion to spend on

education, which would be a

0:25:400:25:45

fantastic opportunity, helping

affluent graduates would not be a

0:25:450:25:49

high priority. It should go to

nurseries and schools and

0:25:490:25:51

universities. Given, as you

established, the crucial politics of

0:25:510:25:57

all this is that it is not like

conventional debt. It is not an

0:25:570:26:01

overdraft or mortgage. I think

parents fear it somehow makes it

0:26:010:26:05

harder for their kids to get started

on the housing ladder, because it is

0:26:050:26:08

a debt, but it does not get in the

way of accessing conventional

0:26:080:26:13

borrowing to help their lives as

adults.

0:26:130:26:18

Our most dedicated fans will have

noticed that the Daily Politics

0:26:180:26:21

was off air last week

as Parliament wasn't sitting.

0:26:210:26:23

But that doesn't mean

politics grinds to a halt.

0:26:230:26:25

So what did we miss last week?

0:26:250:26:27

On Wednesday, Boris Johnson,

gave his Valentine's address -

0:26:270:26:29

billed as message of love

for liberal Remainers,

0:26:290:26:31

saying that Brexit was not "not some

reactionary Faragist concept",

0:26:310:26:33

but that it would be "a disastrous

mistake" to try to stop it.

0:26:330:26:40

On Saturday, Theresa May landed

in Munich with a message

0:26:400:26:45

of reassurance to European partners

over security - with a continuing

0:26:450:26:50

commitment to Europol

and the European Arrest Warrant -

0:26:500:26:54

even if that meant some ongoing role

for the European Court of Justice.

0:26:540:26:59

And then there were tabloid stories

alluding to meetings

0:26:590:27:03

between a former Czechoslovakian spy

and Jeremy Corbyn in the 1980s.

0:27:030:27:05

Labour says the stories

are "scurrilous".

0:27:050:27:09

And finally, Ukip will need to find

yet another leader as leader

0:27:090:27:12

Henry Bolton was ousted

in an extraordinary general

0:27:120:27:14

meeting of the party

in Birmingham on Saturday.

0:27:140:27:17

Well, to pick on some of those

stories and also to talk us

0:27:170:27:20

through the week ahead,

I'm joined now by Lucy Fisher of

0:27:200:27:23

The Times and Henry Mance of the FT.

0:27:230:27:27

Welcome to both of you. Henry,

journalists were not allowed into

0:27:270:27:31

the extraordinary meeting, but you

somehow managed to smuggle yourself

0:27:310:27:35

into the room.

I got lucky. I'm

amazed I wasn't spotted because I

0:27:350:27:39

was half the age of everyone there.

Don't boast!

I hitched on somebody

0:27:390:27:45

who had a copy of the Financial

Times at the event and sat quietly

0:27:450:27:50

with a flyer saying, back Henry

Bolton. I didn't use my phone, there

0:27:500:27:53

was a strict ban, and it was an

amazing sight seeing people get up

0:27:530:27:57

to make speeches in 1500 people

there, to the credit of Ukip.

The

0:27:570:28:02

atmosphere around Henry Bolton?

A

pretty muted reception, you could

0:28:020:28:05

tell straightaway he was going. The

reason they didn't allow journalists

0:28:050:28:09

in was they were terrified of other

political opponents getting videos

0:28:090:28:14

of leading party members going at

each other, which they did. There

0:28:140:28:19

were threats of legal action, people

were late. It was a political

0:28:190:28:23

circus.

It underlines everything you

ever believe. Gerard Batten is the

0:28:230:28:28

interim leader. Who will be the next

leader and will the party survive?

0:28:280:28:32

It could be Gerard Batten. He wants

it going in the direction of being

0:28:320:28:37

an anti-Islam party. In the last

leadership election that Henry

0:28:370:28:40

Bolton windbag, there is a large

portion of the party who want to go

0:28:400:28:44

that direction. There was a female

candidate running on that ticket.

0:28:440:28:48

There is some suggestion Suzanne

Evans, former Tory councillor and

0:28:480:28:51

long-time Ukip figure, could run.

I'm not sure it has a future. One

0:28:510:28:54

problem is the finances will stop

once we leave the European Union

0:28:540:28:58

they will no longer have any peas

and on top of that they have a

0:28:580:29:01

£200,000 bill for a libel case due.

I think it's unclear how they will

0:29:010:29:07

struggle on.

Are their votes up for

grabs?

There are not that many of

0:29:070:29:11

them left. Two, three and 4% in the

opinion polls, not standing in most

0:29:110:29:16

seats last time, so we are getting

close to the bottom already.

Louise

0:29:160:29:20

Haigh, the story about the Labour

leader meeting a former

0:29:200:29:26

Czechoslovakian spy. Some saying

that he paid Jeremy Corbyn to pass

0:29:260:29:32

on information to Prague and Moscow,

a charge the Labour leader denies.

0:29:320:29:38

It has been reiterated there is

nothing in the archive to suggest

0:29:380:29:42

Jeremy Corbyn was an informer, but

he was a person, according to our

0:29:420:29:46

source, of interest to the Secret

Service. Are you comfortable with

0:29:460:29:51

the fact the Labour leader was a

person of interest to the

0:29:510:29:55

Czechoslovakian Secret Service when

they were enemies in the Cold War?

I

0:29:550:29:59

have seen conflicting reports. You

said that Jeremy Corbyn was paid

0:29:590:30:03

money, I have seen of the reports

were under no circumstances did he

0:30:030:30:06

give Jeremy Corbyn money. Reports

are very thin.

He admitted he met a

0:30:060:30:11

Czechoslovakian diplomat, but are

you comfortable with the fact that

0:30:110:30:14

there was contact between the Labour

leader, he says a Czechoslovakian

0:30:140:30:18

diplomat, and others have said he

was a former agent. Are you

0:30:180:30:21

comfortable with the fact those

contacts were made in the Cold War?

0:30:210:30:26

Jeremy has been interested in

foreign policy issues his entire

0:30:260:30:28

career. I don't know if he was sat

on the foreign policy select

0:30:280:30:32

committee at the time but he has sat

on it in the past. You meet people

0:30:320:30:35

from other countries and other

governments in all walks of life in

0:30:350:30:41

this job. I don't think there is any

issue with him eating this

0:30:410:30:43

individual, if he claims to be a

diplomat at the times. And as MPs we

0:30:430:30:46

do not have the ability to vet

people when they come in, we can't

0:30:460:30:50

double-check if they say who they

are. You have to take people at face

0:30:500:30:53

value when they come to see you.

You

say you don't have the ability to

0:30:530:30:57

vet people, but it is important to

know the details of any contact.

0:30:570:31:02

Jeremy Corbyn was a backbench MP

then, but is now leader of the

0:31:020:31:05

Labour Party, any contact he may

have had with people in the Eastern

0:31:050:31:11

Bloc when the Cold War was going on.

That should absolutely be put on the

0:31:110:31:15

table. But Jeremy and John McDonnell

and Ken Livingstone have all denied

0:31:150:31:20

absolutely that they were informants

or agents or anything of this

0:31:200:31:23

nature. I believe this former spy

also claims the Czechoslovakians

0:31:230:31:27

were behind live aid as well. It

seems he not a particularly reliable

0:31:270:31:31

source.

0:31:310:31:34

around Jeremy Corbyn's antipathy

towards what he sees as western

0:31:370:31:41

imperialism and his past sympathies

for some... The Soviet bloc. It has

0:31:410:31:47

put those back front and centre of

the discourse. Whether this will

0:31:470:31:52

bent support for him, I am not

convinced, people knew about these

0:31:520:31:56

contacts, these sentiments that he

had, before the general election and

0:31:560:32:01

it did not hurt him then.

Surprised?

As recently as 2013, Jeremy Corbyn

0:32:010:32:08

said Hugo Chavez had made a massive

contribution to the world, people

0:32:080:32:11

know that these on one extreme, if

he were Prime Minister, we would see

0:32:110:32:15

a change to foreign policy, we

should be aware that there is a big

0:32:150:32:19

change on the table.

Let's talk

about Boris Johnson's speech from

0:32:190:32:22

last week. Did not land in quite the

way that the Foreign Secretary may

0:32:220:32:29

have anticipated.

He is seen as a

toxic figure among Remainers, even

0:32:290:32:33

before stepping out on stage, Chuka

Umunna, he said he was completely

0:32:330:32:37

unqualified to preach, as they put

it. To me, his speech was

0:32:370:32:42

interesting only, -- interesting

tonally coming he was talking about

0:32:420:32:49

a deal, it was a speech aimed at

Theresa May and the rest of the

0:32:490:32:53

cabinet colleagues, urging them to

try to make more of a positive tone

0:32:530:32:58

around Brexit, there has been a

vacuum on that side of the debate.

0:32:580:33:01

Apart from time, what was the most

important thing that Boris Johnson

0:33:010:33:05

said?

He made it very clear, where

people are doubting ability to go

0:33:050:33:09

out there and make a great success

of Brexit, he put it clearly, for us

0:33:090:33:13

as a country, this is a great

opportunity to go out there, forge

0:33:130:33:17

relationships around the world, and

make sure we can benefit as much as

0:33:170:33:21

we can from the new relationship we

are going to have with... What was

0:33:210:33:25

said about the new relationship?

What he said very clearly, we are

0:33:250:33:30

leaving the European Union but not

leaving Europe, so therefore...

But

0:33:300:33:34

that is but that is rhetoric, that

is rhetoric. INAUDIBLE

0:33:340:33:38

As Lucy Fisher was saying, that was

about time, optimistic note, what

0:33:380:33:44

did he say of any importance in

terms of the negotiations?

What he

0:33:440:33:48

said was, look, our relationship

with Europe, we want an enhanced

0:33:480:33:53

relationship at every level, whether

with defence, security, whether it

0:33:530:33:57

is with trade. We are not leaving

European partners, leaving the

0:33:570:34:01

European Union, we want to bring the

deal with us. It is in their

0:34:010:34:05

interest and our interest and we

have the commitment to make that

0:34:050:34:08

happen.

When the trade bill comes

back to the Commons, there will be

0:34:080:34:12

an amendment calling for Britain to

remain in the customs union, would

0:34:120:34:15

you both have that amendment?

I

don't know who is putting it forward

0:34:150:34:19

so I cannot commit.

Would you vote

for an amendment that Britain should

0:34:190:34:26

stay in the customs union?

Personally I would, I don't think it

0:34:260:34:30

should be cut off the table and I

don't see how we can resolve the

0:34:300:34:34

hard border issue without a customs

union or the customs union.

Would

0:34:340:34:37

you like to see Jeremy Corbyn

whipped Labour MPs into voting for a

0:34:370:34:42

motion that would say that Britain

stays in the customs union.

0:34:420:34:44

Depending upon the text, I would

support that.

You would like to see

0:34:440:34:48

the Labour leadership vote. --

0:34:480:34:53

what if Theresa May were defeated,

she has categorically said that we

0:34:540:34:57

will leave. We have made it very

clear.

Labour whips. Labour have

0:34:570:35:01

already tried to frustrate the

process, 243 Labour MPs had not vote

0:35:010:35:06

for the European withdrawal bill

which would end the supremacy of the

0:35:060:35:10

European laws, we have made it

clear, we want to make this a

0:35:100:35:13

success, they can frustrate its.

It

is called accountability, not

0:35:130:35:17

frustration.

Rest of the Leslie,

result of the referendum will not

0:35:170:35:21

even be accepted, amendment after

amendment...

INAUDIBLE

0:35:210:35:24

...

Before we get into too much more

bickering, thank you very much with

0:35:240:35:30

joining us.

0:35:300:35:34

The Government is facing calls

for an early Commons vote

0:35:350:35:36

on whether to press ahead with plans

to cut the number of

0:35:360:35:39

MPs from 650 to 600.

0:35:390:35:41

Parliament is due to vote

in the autumn on new parliamentary

0:35:410:35:43

boundaries, based on rule changes

introduced by the coalition in 2011.

0:35:430:35:46

However, the Public Administration

and Constitutional Affairs Committee

0:35:460:35:48

is warning today that the measure

is unlikely to pass and,

0:35:480:35:50

unless Parliament decides

to have a new boundary review,

0:35:500:35:53

the next election will be fought

on the existing boundaries based

0:35:530:35:55

on population data more than 20

years out of date.

0:35:550:35:58

Tony Bellringer

is

the Deputy Secretary

0:36:000:36:02

to the Boundary Commission

for England, he joins me now.

0:36:020:36:10

If there were to be a new boundary

review, would your heart sink if you

0:36:100:36:14

had to do it again?

Thank you, good

afternoon, would be a little

0:36:140:36:20

frustrating as staff, I have to

admit, given that we did start a

0:36:200:36:24

review in 2011 after new legislation

was passed, and that failed to get

0:36:240:36:31

to the end for various reasons. To

have it happen again would be

0:36:310:36:34

dispiriting.

Dispiriting, but

possible?

Would just about be

0:36:340:36:41

possible, gave evidence to the

committee around the turn of the

0:36:410:36:47

year, the current arrangements ask

us to complete a review, in short

0:36:470:36:51

three years, end to end, the

legislation requires us through

0:36:510:36:55

various stages of consultation, we

have some 35,000 responses, in the

0:36:550:37:01

review so far, takes a long time to

look through those.

As Nelly, what

0:37:010:37:05

would you think of the idea of a new

boundary review, keeping the same

0:37:050:37:10

number of MPs, 650?

Agnostic!

LAUGHTER

0:37:100:37:14

Fair enough.

The number is just the

number for us at the end of the day.

0:37:140:37:21

It is the number we must work with,

how we must distribute it across the

0:37:210:37:25

country, according to a formula. It

is what it is. The number. We do not

0:37:250:37:30

have a view, certainly not publicly

on what the number should be, that

0:37:300:37:35

is a matter for politicians and

Parliament.

Thank you very much.

0:37:350:37:39

Would you like to see a new review,

as is being suggested by the Commons

0:37:390:37:45

public administration Constitutional

affairs committee and Bernard Jenkin

0:37:450:37:46

your colleague to keep the number of

MPs at 650?

I had a manifesto

0:37:460:37:51

commitment to reduce it down to 200,

-- reduce it from 650 down to 600, I

0:37:510:38:00

want that to go ahead because it is

important to have a similar level of

0:38:000:38:03

representation in parliament but the

points made by Bernard of course we

0:38:030:38:06

have to look at the data that was

used was prior to 2015, some say the

0:38:060:38:11

data is slightly outdated, and...

20

years.

The data they used this was

0:38:110:38:19

2015... For the current boundaries,

the previous one, 20 years, yes you

0:38:190:38:24

are absolutely right.

Is it

important to actually be in a

0:38:240:38:28

situation if the Prime Minister

says, she is going to go ahead with

0:38:280:38:30

cutting the number, if it does not

have the support of MPs, if it is

0:38:300:38:34

not going to get through.

Bernard is

a brilliant college, working very

0:38:340:38:39

hard on the committee, but there is

a manifesto commitment from us the

0:38:390:38:43

Conservatives to reduce the cost of

politics to ensure that members of

0:38:430:38:46

Parliament have equal constituents,

who I think it is fair that I have

0:38:460:38:51

72000 and others may have 45,000, I

think that is unfair.

Will it get

0:38:510:38:55

through?

It is a manifesto

commitment and I would like to

0:38:550:38:59

honour that.

Do you support it?

No,

the idea that this is cutting the

0:38:590:39:04

cost of politics, when the Tories

have packed the House of Lords with

0:39:040:39:07

Lords that...

Tony Blair did it.

INAUDIBLE

0:39:070:39:12

You have...

This is about cutting

the number of Labour seats, because

0:39:120:39:17

the number of people not in the

electoral register in Labour areas

0:39:170:39:21

is going to be higher than...

But

you... The point to reduce the

0:39:210:39:25

number of constituencies and make

them a more equal size in terms of

0:39:250:39:28

the number of people and

constituencies, that is fair.

Yes,

0:39:280:39:32

absolutely, I support the principle

but as Raymond has said, the

0:39:320:39:35

electoral data they are using, that

they use the 2015, it is already

0:39:350:39:40

well out of date, more than a

million extra people registered to

0:39:400:39:44

vote ahead of the European

referendum, tens of thousands of

0:39:440:39:47

additional students, are we saying

their votes do not count and will

0:39:470:39:50

not count in the boundary review?

Will you support a new review? Yes,

0:39:500:39:54

I will.

You will back the proposal

by Bernard Jenkins. Will it get

0:39:540:39:59

through if there is not a new

review?

I think the wafer thin

0:39:590:40:02

majority for the Tories at the

moment, they will struggle to vote

0:40:020:40:05

to reduce the number of MPs to 600.

I'm sorry to say this to you, you

0:40:050:40:10

may be conducting a new review,

dispiriting as it sounds(!) thank

0:40:100:40:15

you.

0:40:150:40:16

There seems to have been a seismic

shift in sexual politics in the last

0:40:220:40:26

six months with the "Me Too"

campaign, the debate

0:40:260:40:28

about the gender pay gap

0:40:280:40:29

and the ending of "grid girls"

in Formula One racing.

0:40:290:40:31

But is it

wrong

for women

to exploit their beauty?

0:40:310:40:34

Sociologist Catherine Hakim thinks

women should use their "erotic

0:40:340:40:36

capital" to get ahead.

0:40:360:40:37

Here's her soapbox.

0:40:370:40:40

MUSIC: Flashing Lights

by Kanye West ft Dwele.

0:40:450:40:47

# Flashing lights

0:40:470:40:50

The BBC, Tesco and other employers

have started analyses of the reasons

0:40:500:40:55

for the differences between men

and women and their earnings.

0:40:550:40:59

However, some feminist campaigners

have started to destroy women's

0:40:590:41:02

ability to exploit their good looks

and charm, or what I would call,

0:41:020:41:05

their "erotic capital."

0:41:050:41:08

Women have a clear advantage

0:41:080:41:10

in exploiting their

good looks over men.

0:41:100:41:15

# As I recall, I know you love

to show off

0:41:150:41:17

# But I never thought that

you would take it this far

0:41:170:41:21

# What do I know?

0:41:210:41:27

Any activity, any enterprise,

any sport,

0:41:270:41:32

is raised to a higher level

0:41:320:41:33

if those involved

are attractive, beautiful,

0:41:330:41:35

handsome people.

0:41:350:41:36

Airlines know this,

restaurants and bars know it.

0:41:360:41:38

Beautiful women sell more goods

and services than beautiful men.

0:41:380:41:41

So that's why we have Formula 1 grid

girls, darts showgirls,

0:41:410:41:44

and in the United States

0:41:440:41:46

there are beautiful young

cheerleaders at half-time

0:41:460:41:48

in major sporting events.

0:41:480:41:52

No one objects to David Beckham

earning millions from posing

0:41:520:41:54

in underwear, almost naked,

0:41:540:41:56

on huge billboards in public places.

0:41:560:41:59

So why do we object to women doing

exactly the same thing?

0:41:590:42:04

Objections come from

deeply-rooted patriarchal values

0:42:040:42:07

that are still embedded

in modern sexual politics.

0:42:070:42:14

And

that

feminist ideology

0:42:140:42:21

has unwittingly

reinforced

instead of eliminating.

0:42:210:42:24

Modern objections, modern

feminist objections,

0:42:240:42:25

are now against women

exploiting their good looks

0:42:250:42:27

instead of encouraging them

to negotiate for higher pay.

0:42:270:42:34

The returns to attractiveness

and beauty

0:42:340:42:36

equal the returns to

educational qualifications.

0:42:360:42:40

Those who have erotic capital

have a huge advantage.

0:42:400:42:45

Men and women with a good

appearance,

0:42:450:42:48

good looks and a pleasant manner,

0:42:480:42:50

can earn on average between 10%

and 20% more than other people.

0:42:500:42:53

Exceptionally attractive

people earn lots more.

0:42:530:42:58

Rihanna has exploited her good looks

0:42:580:43:01

and has been photographed in public

wearing semi-nude dresses.

0:43:010:43:06

Why do we treat lesser-earning

women differently?

0:43:060:43:09

Just like men, women should be able

to earn their living

0:43:090:43:13

doing whatever they want,

0:43:130:43:15

including modelling,

stripping, lap dancing,

0:43:150:43:19

Page 3 photoshoots, burlesque shows.

0:43:190:43:21

Women should be allowed

to exploit their erotic capital

0:43:210:43:24

in exactly the same way

men already do.

0:43:240:43:32

STUDIO: And Catherine

Hakim joins me now.

0:43:370:43:41

Last night, at the BAFTA awards, all

the female stars turned out in

0:43:410:43:45

black, to show solidarity with the

movement against sexual harassment.

0:43:450:43:50

Are you on the wrong side of the

argument here, especially with the

0:43:500:43:54

metoo campaign?

It is fashionable to

join this campaign, this #metoo

0:43:540:44:02

campaign, it is fashionable to wear

black to show solidarity but

0:44:020:44:06

actually, it is a backlash towards

patriarchal and puritanical

0:44:060:44:10

attitudes towards erotic sexuality,

towards...

Isn't it a backlash

0:44:100:44:17

against men having dominated in

semi-spheres of life and women

0:44:170:44:22

feeling ill treated, in gender pay

or sexual harassment?

I won't go

0:44:220:44:27

into the pay gap, that is being

dealt with by legislation in Britain

0:44:270:44:32

and North America, but...

You said

it was against women exploiting good

0:44:320:44:36

looks, I say it is a backlash

against the way they have been

0:44:360:44:40

treated in various spheres, whether

it is at work or outside in the

0:44:400:44:43

domestic sphere.

People have changed

their attitudes towards the way they

0:44:430:44:49

treat women in public life, there is

no question there has been a huge

0:44:490:44:53

change there. An awful lot of the

complaints today are about

0:44:530:44:57

historical things, about things that

happened ten fifth, ten, 20 years

0:44:570:45:01

ago.

You don't think it is right to

address those?

It is not the time

0:45:010:45:07

banned worth the time and effort

that is being spent on it, what we

0:45:070:45:11

should look at is the way forward in

the 21st-century, erotic capital

0:45:110:45:15

still has value, in fact, in my

book, I show that it has more value

0:45:150:45:21

in the 21st-century than it did in

the past, so we will have an

0:45:210:45:25

increasing problem of what is called

sexual harassment which is a lot of

0:45:250:45:28

the time men paying attention to

women because they are attracted to

0:45:280:45:32

women.

What do you say to that, it

is not worth the time being spent,

0:45:320:45:37

to look at and investigate historic

cases of sexual harassment or where

0:45:370:45:42

women have been exploited and

actually, because of some of the

0:45:420:45:45

campaigns running now, it will lead

to a further backlash of sexual

0:45:450:45:48

harassment.

I think what the #metoo

campaign has its boast is that

0:45:480:45:53

sexual harassment and abuse of women

is still going on in every industry,

0:45:530:45:58

in every sector of our society

today, it was worse 40, 50 years ago

0:45:580:46:04

but it is still going on in

Westminster, in journalism, in all

0:46:040:46:09

sectors, and I believe that the need

to campaign is a backlash to the

0:46:090:46:13

object of vocation of women, to the

perception of women as passive

0:46:130:46:17

creatures on the sidelines of men's.

What about Rhianna, what about...

0:46:170:46:23

She goes on to the stage half naked.

Nothing against sexual empowerment,

0:46:230:46:30

the problem I have with the Grid

girls, with the darts, women are

0:46:300:46:36

seen as passive creatures, the men

are daredevil races and sportsmen.

0:46:360:46:40

Little boys and girls watching that

teaches them something terrible

0:46:400:46:45

about the society.

-- #metoo

campaign.

0:46:450:46:52

Is there a difference between women

being able to capitalise their

0:46:530:46:57

erotic capital, as you call it.

Questions about whether Grid girls

0:46:570:47:02

and darts walk on girls should be

banned. Why shouldn't they be?

0:47:020:47:07

Beauty has always had an erotic

element. The reason David Beckham

0:47:070:47:11

earns millions from posing naked is

because there is an erotic element

0:47:110:47:15

there. It's a very puritanical

reaction to say women shouldn't earn

0:47:150:47:19

money by being beautiful and

attractive, decorating and being

0:47:190:47:26

involved in public events, sports

events and other events.

Except, how

0:47:260:47:31

many public events are that way you

see men and boys being decorative in

0:47:310:47:34

the same way. We don't have Grid

boys or walk on boys in darts.

0:47:340:47:40

Perhaps we should have them. George

Clooney has no compunction at all

0:47:400:47:44

about earning millions from the fact

that he decorates adverts for copy

0:47:440:47:49

machines. We -- coffee machines. We

allow men to do it.

Do you accept

0:47:490:47:59

that hasn't been a tradition in the

past of allowing boys and men to be

0:47:590:48:02

exposed in the same way as women and

girls?

We see more and more of it

0:48:020:48:06

today.

And you think it's a good

thing?

I think it's equalising.

I

0:48:060:48:12

think we do treat George Clooney

differently when advertising

0:48:120:48:15

products than we do with other

Hollywood stars. In Caitlin Moran's

0:48:150:48:21

book, how to make a woman, she says

the basic tenet of whether sexism is

0:48:210:48:26

happening is whether the men are

having to do it. Our men walking on

0:48:260:48:31

female sports stars, do they wave

flight smack as women drive past in

0:48:310:48:37

Formula 1 cars? They are not,

because men are not systematically

0:48:370:48:41

and routinely objectified in

society.

Why should women be

0:48:410:48:44

prevented from using their good

looks to earn decent money in

0:48:440:48:48

Formula 1 and darts competitions?

I

believe in a free society and that

0:48:480:48:53

it's up to each individual on how

they want to dress, how they don't

0:48:530:48:56

want to dress and what they want to

do within the parameters of the law,

0:48:560:49:00

there should always be respected and

civility towards one another. When I

0:49:000:49:05

go to sports events, I want to see

brilliant sportswomen...

Should be

0:49:050:49:13

glamour girls be dropped?

I think

it's up to each organisation to

0:49:130:49:16

determine what is right for them.

It's not up to me as a politician to

0:49:160:49:20

regulate what sporting organisations

should do. There should always be

0:49:200:49:23

respected and civility but it's up

to each sporting organisation to

0:49:230:49:27

determine how they run themselves.

Would you accept there is a

0:49:270:49:30

difference between George Clooney,

David Beckham and Rihanna, who do

0:49:300:49:34

what they do from a position of

power and high levels of income, and

0:49:340:49:39

it's not the same as men and women

who are earning far less and doing

0:49:390:49:43

it to survive?

No, I don't think

there is a difference. Everybody who

0:49:430:49:49

works is working for an income,

whether it's high or low. I don't

0:49:490:49:53

think we should treat people who are

less famous than David Beckham and

0:49:530:49:58

George Clooney as being inferior

people who are unable to make their

0:49:580:50:01

own choices about how they want to

earn their living and what they want

0:50:010:50:04

to do with their lives. We are

infantilising women at the moment. I

0:50:040:50:09

am writing a book on sexual

politics, and one of the key themes

0:50:090:50:12

that seems to come up again and

again is women are being

0:50:120:50:16

infantilised as if they are unable

to make decisions about their lives,

0:50:160:50:20

choose their occupations and make a

calculation as to whether they want

0:50:200:50:23

to be a stripper or not, whether

they want to earn a lot of money in

0:50:230:50:27

just one night, which the they might

spend a whole month earning as a

0:50:270:50:34

shelf filler. That's a choice women

have to make. And they might have a

0:50:340:50:38

huge advantage if they have good

looks and they can exploit that. On

0:50:380:50:42

average women are a lot more

attractive than men, and that's a

0:50:420:50:45

permanent factor, seems to me.

Rehman Chishti, what do you say to

0:50:450:50:49

that?!

I thought my youthful looks

were going pretty well!

0:50:490:50:55

It's been well over 18

months since Britain took

0:50:550:50:57

the momentous decision to leave

the European Union.

0:50:570:50:59

But judging by the number

of new groups being set up arguing

0:50:590:51:02

the pros and cons of leaving the EU

you'd be forgiven for thinking

0:51:020:51:05

that the decision hasn't necessarily

been settled for good.

0:51:050:51:08

Today sees the launch

of a new anti-Brexit party called

0:51:080:51:10

Renew which has reportedly been

getting advice from MPs in

0:51:100:51:14

Emmanuel Macron's En Marche party.

0:51:140:51:22

As well as Renew, who we saw there,

a group of pro-Brexit academics has

0:51:260:51:29

also been launched to provide expert

analysis in favour of leaving

0:51:290:51:32

the European Union.

0:51:320:51:33

So, joining me now,

is Dr Graham Gudgin,

0:51:330:51:35

a Cambridge University economist

and the editor of

0:51:350:51:37

Briefings for Brexit.

0:51:370:51:38

Aand we also have James Torrance,

a co-founder of Renew -

0:51:380:51:40

he's in central London

where the party is being officially

0:51:400:51:43

launched right now.

0:51:430:51:44

James Torrance, why do we need an

anti-Brexit party, when we already

0:51:440:51:46

have the Liberal Democrats and the

Green Party?

The SNP are not

0:51:460:51:49

national and the Liberal Democrats

have been widely discredited. The

0:51:490:51:51

Green Party are very focused on a

particular range of issues as well

0:51:510:51:53

as Brexit. We need a party to

provide an anti-Brexit message that

0:51:530:51:58

is rooted in pragmatic and centrist

policies that fix the problems in

0:51:580:52:02

society rather than create new ones.

I have to apologise because the

0:52:020:52:06

quality of the lying to you is not

very good. We will try again. -- the

0:52:060:52:11

quality of the line to you. This is

a little that the video of Renew

0:52:110:52:19

that you have released.

0:52:190:52:23

Hello, my name is James,

I'm an accountant from London.

0:52:230:52:26

Hi, I'm Yuki, I'm a junior

doctor here in London.

0:52:260:52:28

I'm Oliver.

0:52:280:52:29

I'm a small-business owner.

0:52:290:52:30

I have a consultancy

based in London.

0:52:300:52:32

I'm Nicky Blair, and I live

and work in south London.

0:52:320:52:34

I'm really excited about Renew,

partly because of its attitude

0:52:340:52:37

towards Brexit and the belief it

should be reversed.

0:52:370:52:39

I thought you had to be involved

in traditional politics,

0:52:390:52:41

that somehow you needed some

connection to do that.

0:52:410:52:44

I'm really fed up with the way

that I feel this country

0:52:440:52:46

is being represented

by our MPs in Parliament.

0:52:460:52:48

Where I have felt disillusioned

with politics and really didn't know

0:52:480:52:51

where to base my vote at the last

general election, it's heartening

0:52:510:52:54

to me to feel that people

are passionate enough to step

0:52:540:52:56

forward and actually start again.

0:52:560:53:04

That's the video on the home page of

your website, James Torrance. Why is

0:53:100:53:15

everybody featured from London?

I

think they were filmed right at the

0:53:150:53:18

beginning of our escapade, and we

started in London. The reality is

0:53:180:53:23

today we have more than 200

candidates from all over the UK,

0:53:230:53:28

from northern Scotland is to the

south-west. We have a good cluster

0:53:280:53:32

of candidates in the north-east. I

think today we are a national party

0:53:320:53:36

with rapid sensation all of the UK.

People might ask why you didn't

0:53:360:53:41

include people from all around the

UK later. -- with representation all

0:53:410:53:48

over the UK. Graham, why do we need

pro Brexit academics?

As many of the

0:53:480:53:55

arguments haven't been made in the

press. We want to count the

0:53:550:54:02

accusations that Brexit supporters

are ill educated, misinformed,

0:54:020:54:06

misled, or Lord help us, even

sometimes racist.

Isn't that an

0:54:060:54:12

admission at the bounds of expert

opinion in academia and elsewhere is

0:54:120:54:16

very worried about Brexit and the

likely economic consequences?

I

0:54:160:54:22

think what you say is true. The

evidence suggests up to 90% of

0:54:220:54:28

university academics support remain.

The problem is, they get all the

0:54:280:54:31

airtime and the arguments. And there

are plenty of very senior academics

0:54:310:54:36

and very experienced people in other

areas of life who support Brexit,

0:54:360:54:41

and their arguments have not got out

very much. What we are trying to do

0:54:410:54:45

is give a platform for those people

and for those arguments.

I take your

0:54:450:54:50

point is that you feel they haven't

had the air time, although we

0:54:500:54:54

certainly do have people like you on

on a regular basis talking about

0:54:540:54:59

Brexit and its advantages, but you

do accept it's a minority of your

0:54:590:55:02

colleagues to support your views.

Yes, but if you want to count heads,

0:55:020:55:08

we have the referendum and we know

the result. We are now in a part of

0:55:080:55:13

the national debate in which we are

trying to debate what is the best

0:55:130:55:17

way forward. Now it's the quality of

argument is that really count and we

0:55:170:55:21

are trying to put forward

high-quality arguments.

You will

0:55:210:55:25

have heard that experts at the civil

service are saying Brexit will hit

0:55:250:55:29

growth by up to 8% over the next 15

years and a free-trade deal would

0:55:290:55:34

only add 0.2% to growth over the

same period. Do you think that's the

0:55:340:55:40

reason so many experts and academics

believe the sums on Brexit don't add

0:55:400:55:44

up.

It's an important reason why

people voted to remain. I think the

0:55:440:55:49

polling shows that on the remains

side at least, the economic

0:55:490:55:51

consequences were the biggest

factor. But myself and colleagues at

0:55:510:55:57

Cambridge and Ulster University in

Northern Ireland have been looking

0:55:570:56:00

at it very carefully and we are the

only people in the UK who fully

0:56:000:56:05

represented the analysis of the

Treasury and OECD, and we find them

0:56:050:56:10

deeply flawed, greatly exaggerated

on the negative side, and we are in

0:56:100:56:13

a situation where we had the leaked

report last week that again gave

0:56:130:56:17

negative figures, but we're not told

who produced the figures, or how the

0:56:170:56:20

analysis was done. It was

essentially a secret report,

0:56:200:56:24

completely unsatisfactorily.

Presumably it was commissioned by

0:56:240:56:29

the government aren't done by the

civil service. Back to James

0:56:290:56:33

Torrance, how do you respond to the

assertion that there are many

0:56:330:56:36

Remainers Mac and remain sporting

groups who treat leave voters like

0:56:360:56:43

they are stupid.

I don't believe

that at all. It's mainly leave

0:56:430:56:48

voters who generally repeat that. We

take the concerns of leave voters

0:56:480:56:52

very seriously, which is one of the

reasons we believe a new party is

0:56:520:56:56

the right answer. There are many

problems that exist in this country

0:56:560:56:58

that need to be resolved, but we

think Brexit is a poor way of

0:56:580:57:02

addressing it and will ultimately

make it worse.

There are reports in

0:57:020:57:05

the press saying one of your leaders

walked out in the press conference.

0:57:050:57:09

Is that true, what happened?

That

was me, actually! I came out of the

0:57:090:57:15

press conference to give this

interview!

LAUGHTER

0:57:150:57:18

That's hilarious. That clears that

one up. Just before we go, you said

0:57:180:57:26

the purpose of your website is to

fight the propaganda that dismisses

0:57:260:57:29

leave voters. Do you have people

like the Renew party and anti-Brexit

0:57:290:57:37

parties in mind when you say that?

I

think we have the media in general

0:57:370:57:41

and politics in general.

I am

pleased to hear what James has just

0:57:410:57:46

said, but that's clearly not the

norm on the media. We have had

0:57:460:57:51

hundreds and hundreds of responses

since we set up this website 24

0:57:510:57:55

hours ago, largely from people who

say they feel they have been

0:57:550:58:00

ignored, marginalised, and maligned,

and how glad they are to see there

0:58:000:58:04

are prominent academics who take the

same view as they do.

Very briefly,

0:58:040:58:09

for a free trade with America to

make up for lost trade with the EU,

0:58:090:58:13

it would have to be an enormously in

terms of what people think is

0:58:130:58:19

actually achievable. Is it credible?

There are two things in that

0:58:190:58:23

question.

You will have to be very

brief because we are running out of

0:58:230:58:26

time.

We don't believe the gap is

very big, and it will take time,

0:58:260:58:30

there will be some gap, and we

believe it will be relatively

0:58:300:58:33

moderate and take some time to fill.

Thank you for doing that briefly.

0:58:330:58:37

Thank you to both of you. The answer

to our quiz now, which politician

0:58:370:58:43

did Morrissey criticise, Nicola

Sturgeon, David Cameron, Theresa May

0:58:430:58:46

or Jeremy Corbyn?

It was Nicola

Sturgeon, well done.

We will be back

0:58:460:58:54

tomorrow at noon. Goodbye.

0:58:540:59:01

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