Browse content similar to 19/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
Theresa May says students in England
deserve better value | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
for their university degrees
as she launches a comprehensive | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
review of post-18 education. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
But is the Government just kicking
the problem in to the long grass? | 0:00:52 | 0:01:00 | |
The European Parliament's chief
Brexit spokesman | 0:01:00 | 0:01:05 | |
says Britain is unlikely to get
the bespoke deal it wants. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
He's meeting MPs on the UK
Parliament's Brexit committee today. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:10 | |
We speak to one of them
live from Brussels. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
And, apart from the annual
political pancake day race | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
it's been a little quiet
in Westminster over the last week | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
as Parliament has been
on half-term recess. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
But as MPs head back to big smoke
we've got all the details of what's | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
in store over the next seven days. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
And, after Formula One decides
to drop its "grid girls", | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
we speak to an academic who argues
that it is in fact | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
a retrograde step for women. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
Women should be able
to earn their living | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
doing whatever they want,
including modelling, stripping, | 0:01:36 | 0:01:42 | |
lap dancing, Page 3 photoshoots,
burlesque shows. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:48 | |
Yes, all that coming
up in the next hour. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
Parliament is in fact
still in recess today, | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
but we've managed to find two
dedicated public servants | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
willing to cut short
their half-term break by a day! | 0:01:56 | 0:01:58 | |
Labour's Louise Haigh
and Conservative Rehman Chishti - | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
welcome to you both. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:08 | |
Now MPs from the Brexit Select
committee are in Brussels today | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
to have meetings with various high
profile figuers including | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
the EU's chief Brexit
negotiator Michel Barnier | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
and the European Parliament's chief
Brexit spokesman, Guy Verhofstadt. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
Mr Verhofstadt popped up
on the Andrew Marr show yesterday | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
and made some comments that
won't have gone down all that well | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
with some people on this
side of the Channel, | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
with Andrew Marr asking
whether the government's negotiating | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
strategy will be successful. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:35 | |
It's fairly clear, it's not
completely clear yet, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
what Theresa May is going
to ask for. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:48 | |
David Davis described it to me
as "Canada plus plus plus". | 0:02:48 | 0:02:50 | |
And what he meant by that was,
a free-trade deal, no tariffs, | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
no nontariff barriers for goods,
cars and so forth. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
But special agreements on things
like financial services. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:57 | |
That's what they are
going to ask for. | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
Again, is that not reasonable,
to do that kind of special | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
bespoke arrangement? | 0:03:02 | 0:03:03 | |
Yeah, but that will not be
the outcome of this negotiation. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
It cannot be the outcome. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:07 | |
Why not? | 0:03:07 | 0:03:08 | |
The outcome will be, again,
it will not be a type of saying, | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
this is interesting,
that we like. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
This is not interesting for us,
we dislike and we don't want it. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:22 | |
Craig Mackinlay is a Conservative MP
on the Brexit Select Committee | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
and is among the delegation of MPs
meeting Mr Verhofstadt | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
in Brussels today. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
We are hoping to speak with him
shortly, but first, my guests here, | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
no bespoke deal, is a pretty
influential person, Guy Verhofstadt, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:39 | |
how disappointed are you? That kind
of talk has led to British people | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
making a decision to determine their
own destiny about laws, money, | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
borders, telling us what we can and
cannot do is not the right way | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
forward. The British people have
voted to come out of the single | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
market, the customs union, the
European Union. We must find a | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
special relationship, we will leave
the European Union but still be a | 0:03:58 | 0:04:03 | |
part of Europe, we want a good
relationship, we want trade with | 0:04:03 | 0:04:09 | |
European partners, we have the
commitment to find that special | 0:04:09 | 0:04:11 | |
deal. We will get that. This kind of
talk reinstates wider British public | 0:04:11 | 0:04:19 | |
voted to determine their own destiny
rather than being told by the | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
Europeans. He is still saying no,
the deal you are asking for one not | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
beyond the table. We are working
very hard to get the best boat | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
deal... He just said no, no bespoke
deal, there will be no Canada plus | 0:04:31 | 0:04:36 | |
bus plus. -- the best bespoke deal.
There will be nothing like that. We | 0:04:36 | 0:04:44 | |
had a similar kind of issue pushed
to us before when we were trying to | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
get the first stage, we made an
agreement on the financial deal, we | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
made sure we dealt with the
situation with the Northern Ireland. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
How have you dealt with that? The
situation with Ireland? The Common | 0:04:54 | 0:05:00 | |
travel area will be there, we made
it very clear that we will not have | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
a hard border, we made it very clear
the Good Friday Agreement will stay | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
in place. How do you do that if
Britain is outside the customs | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
union? Those are the core principles
from which we will not move, those | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
negotiations will take place in
relation to detail but our | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
principle, having a non-hard border
with Northern Ireland is to the | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
heart of it. Everyone is committed
to it, how do you achieve it if you | 0:05:21 | 0:05:27 | |
are not part of the customs union
when there will have to be checks on | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
goods and goods of origin? We
achieve it with a brilliant | 0:05:31 | 0:05:36 | |
Secretary of State for Brexit, with
a great Prime Minister, that is how | 0:05:36 | 0:05:42 | |
we do it's not what what you think
this being said, that kind of | 0:05:42 | 0:05:47 | |
language, that kind of telling
Britain what it can and cannot have, | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
that led semi-British voters, 17.4
and Ian people to vote to leave. It | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
is that kind of attitude that I'm
afraid to say that has led to the | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
position of the European Commission
and the European Union, such a | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
hardline approach to gauche Asians.
You think it is a hard line? It is | 0:06:02 | 0:06:07 | |
quite a hardline because every other
country has some kind of a spoke | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
deal with the European Union, Turkey
has its own customs union with the | 0:06:10 | 0:06:14 | |
European Union, Norway is in the
single market but not the customs | 0:06:14 | 0:06:18 | |
union. They are in the single
market, Britain does not want to be. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
Jersey is in the customs union but
in the single market in relation to | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
goods and not services, every other
partner has some kind of the spoke | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
deal, I think it is unlikely that
Britain will not get a bespoke deal | 0:06:29 | 0:06:35 | |
you do not have a fantastic
Secretary of State negotiating | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
"Brexit" 's, I must disagree. We got
through the first stage. Ireland and | 0:06:39 | 0:06:47 | |
the European Union, are interpreting
that as member ship of the customs | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
union and the single market. Quite
frankly, it is very difficult to | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
envisage how we will guarantee no
hard border without membership of | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
the customs union or a customs
union. Is that what the Labour | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
policy should be? The Labour policy
has been, never remove the customs | 0:07:01 | 0:07:06 | |
union from negotiating party, it is
the ideological approach of the | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
Tories of Brexit negotiation that
has slowed a progress and let to | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
this difficult negotiating stance on
both sides. Just to be clear, do you | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
want Jeremy Corbyn to state
categorically that Labour supports a | 0:07:17 | 0:07:23 | |
position of Britain remaining in the
customs union with the EU? I think | 0:07:23 | 0:07:27 | |
the position should remain as it is,
we are not taking it off the | 0:07:27 | 0:07:32 | |
negotiating table, that we are happy
to remain members, we would be happy | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
to negotiate a separate customs
union but nothing should be off the | 0:07:36 | 0:07:40 | |
negotiating table. INAUDIBLE
... Single market, outside the | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
jurisdiction of the EU. INAUDIBLE
You are saying, on the customs | 0:07:44 | 0:07:49 | |
union, in your manifesto, coming
out. We have always said it should | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
not be off the negotiating table.
INAUDIBLE | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
I welcome back to this in just a
moment but Craig is now there are, | 0:07:56 | 0:08:00 | |
you may or may not have heard Guy
Verhofstadt, we played a piece from | 0:08:00 | 0:08:05 | |
his interview with Andrew Marr where
he said there will be no bespoke | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
deal, no Canada plus plus plus, what
do you say to that? Well, we seem to | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
be getting mixed messages, sorry to
be a little late, I have been in a | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
meeting with Michel Barnier, seems
that there are offers on the table | 0:08:18 | 0:08:23 | |
but we seem to have this rather
rigid view that there has to be one | 0:08:23 | 0:08:27 | |
model or another it cannot be the
spoke, has to be like Canada, Canada | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
was mentioned rather a lot, with
some extra bits on security, very | 0:08:30 | 0:08:35 | |
much outlined in the Prime
Minister's Munich speech. Honestly | 0:08:35 | 0:08:40 | |
feel that the EU needs to be more
flexible to accommodate Britain | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
because what we are forgetting is
that we had a referendum, that | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
referendum was to regain control of
the borders and money and laws and | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
that has to be respected. The EU
needs to realise that we have a huge | 0:08:51 | 0:08:56 | |
trade deficit with the EU. It is in
their interest to get a very good | 0:08:56 | 0:09:03 | |
deal for their own citizens and
their own country. You say the EU | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
needs to do this, how will you
persuade Guy Verhofstadt, you have | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
met Michel Barnier, chief
negotiating officer. I am eating him | 0:09:11 | 0:09:15 | |
in an hour or so. What will you say
to him when he says the UK will not | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
have a final deal which will see
different arrangements for different | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
sectors of the economy, there will
not be special dispensation for | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
financial services, he says it is
impossible, how will you persuade | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
him to move significantly on this
position? We ended up not really | 0:09:29 | 0:09:33 | |
knowing who the controlling mind is
here, we seem to have Guy | 0:09:33 | 0:09:37 | |
Verhofstadt saying different things
from Michel Barnier, and who knows | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
what the EU 27 are thinking. I got
the impression today with Michel | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
Barnier that he is worried that the
27 countries will not be moving | 0:09:45 | 0:09:50 | |
together as one, that is very much a
fear because Germany has a huge | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
trade surplus with the UK, 2 million
German jobs reliant on the UK | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
market, and I think that ought to be
in their mind, rather more clearly, | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
that a deal is not, not just good
for one, it will be good for both, | 0:10:03 | 0:10:09 | |
positive sum deal, if that requires
a bespoke arrangement acceptable to | 0:10:09 | 0:10:13 | |
Britain's redlines, they will have
to be soft on redlines as well. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
There is a deal to be done but it
needs flexibility. What did Michel | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
Barnier say to you clearly when he
said that he gave a little bit more, | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
he seems to be more flexible than
Guy Verhofstadt, what did he promise | 0:10:24 | 0:10:30 | |
on Canada type deal? Canada was
mentioned a lot as a potential | 0:10:30 | 0:10:36 | |
formulaic. And obviously, David
Davis has said the same, Canada plus | 0:10:36 | 0:10:43 | |
plus plus. Financial services, that
seems to be a very major issue. And | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
that was outlined very clearly,
because of the security of the | 0:10:48 | 0:10:54 | |
European financial markets, take the
roles or don't say the rules. And | 0:10:54 | 0:10:59 | |
that is the problem, but this is
where we need some new thinking, new | 0:10:59 | 0:11:04 | |
thinking of mutual recognition,
looking back at the financial crisis | 0:11:04 | 0:11:09 | |
2008/9, Australia and Canada had no
bailout of the bank, they have a | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
financial system of easily robust.
We need a global view. Certain | 0:11:12 | 0:11:18 | |
countries are advanced, civilised,
they have usual norms we are all | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
familiar with, there should be
mutual acceptance between advanced | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
countries that this is the new way
forward for global trade and I think | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
Britain can be in the driving seat
for that. You have made your | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
position clear, would it help if
Theresa May was clear on exactly | 0:11:32 | 0:11:37 | |
what she wants in terms of that
future relationship with the EU? | 0:11:37 | 0:11:42 | |
Well, that has come out a bit today
as well, with discussions, Michel | 0:11:42 | 0:11:47 | |
Barnier saying, we would like to
know exactly what the UK Government | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
really wants, but from other bits
and pieces on security, I think | 0:11:50 | 0:11:56 | |
there is a lot of clarity on where
Britain is going on this. That does | 0:11:56 | 0:12:02 | |
seem to be a message coming forward,
that we do need the UK Government to | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
state very clearly what it is after.
I think that will become clear | 0:12:05 | 0:12:10 | |
before the end of March meeting, of
the ministers. So I think the next | 0:12:10 | 0:12:16 | |
six weeks are going to be very
important and I am sure there will | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
be clarity coming forward from the
UK Government but it is needed, I | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
will accept that. Guy Verhofstadt
has said it is not acceptable to all | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
to freedom of movement rules during
transition into and Asian period, do | 0:12:27 | 0:12:32 | |
you agree with that? Well I do not,
we are leaving the institution of | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
the European Union on the 29th of
March of next year. -- during | 0:12:36 | 0:12:41 | |
transitional implementation period.
It seems ridiculous, it has been | 0:12:41 | 0:12:48 | |
mentioned before, the vassal state
situation we could find ourselves | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
in, roll takers, new rules coming
forward, applying them, freedom of | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
movement exactly as there is today,
that will not be fulfilling the | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
referendum so things must change
after Brexit. The PM is quite right | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
with redlines she has put forward.
Thank you very much. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
And for more reporting
and analysis of Brexit, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
check out the BBC News website,
that's bbc.co.uk/brexit. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:19 | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:21 | |
It seems that bigmouth strikes
again, the former Smiths singer | 0:13:21 | 0:13:23 | |
Morrissey has had a go at a senior
politician | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
during one of his concerts. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:27 | |
So our question for today is, who? | 0:13:27 | 0:13:29 | |
Was it: a) Nicola Sturgeon, | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
b) David Cameron,
c) Theresa May, | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
or d) Jeremy Corbyn? | 0:13:33 | 0:13:34 | |
At the end of the show Rehman
and Louise will give | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
us the correct answer. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:41 | |
Later today, Theresa May
will announce an independent review | 0:13:41 | 0:13:43 | |
of students fees and finance,
because, she'll say, | 0:13:43 | 0:13:45 | |
students in England currently face
"one of the most expensive systems | 0:13:45 | 0:13:48 | |
of university tuition in the world". | 0:13:48 | 0:13:50 | |
The Prime Minister believes
there are "serious concerns" among | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
students, parents and grandparents
about the system of student finance, | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
concerns that have Labour promising
to abolish fees entirely. | 0:13:56 | 0:13:58 | |
So what's the situation in the
higher education system currently? | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
Almost all courses in England charge
the maximum fee of just | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
over £9,000 a year. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
But of course, students don't begin
to pay that money back | 0:14:05 | 0:14:07 | |
until after graduation
and until they earn £25,000 a year. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
Interest rates fees now
stand at up to 6.1% - | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
a figure that has been roundly
denounced by a number | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
of senior Tories. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:20 | |
With some students | 0:14:20 | 0:14:22 | |
now leaving university with debts
of more than £50,000 | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
after a three-year course. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:26 | |
Last year the government
froze fees at £9,250, | 0:14:26 | 0:14:28 | |
and raised the repayment threshold | 0:14:28 | 0:14:29 | |
but it clearly thinks
there's more to be done. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:35 | |
Today, Theresa May will say
an expected competitive market | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
in fees hasn't materialised
since the coalition government | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
raised the fee cap in 2012. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
The new independent review will look
at setting fees based | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
on the cost of a course,
the benefit to the student, and | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
the benefit to society as a whole. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:58 | |
It will also consider
the reintroduction of maintenance | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
grants for poorer students, | 0:15:00 | 0:15:06 | |
which were phased out
in favour of loans in 2016. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
But the government's already
come under fire | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
from one senior backbencher, | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
former Education Secretary Justine
Greening | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
says the fee system shouldn't be
"a political football", | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
that looked like it was being
"kicked into the long grass". | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
Well, earlier this morning | 0:15:26 | 0:15:27 | |
Theresa May spoke to ITV's
This Morning programme | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
about the planned review. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
Let's see what she had to say. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
Let's see what she had to say. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:44 | |
What we need to do now is say,
we have a system of fees | 0:15:44 | 0:15:48 | |
in education, but some
issues have arisen. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:49 | |
A concern not just for students
themselves, but families, parents, | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
grandparents have about the level
of debt that they build up. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
And also a concern that, basically,
universities charge the same, | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
whatever course you are doing,
they will charge the same. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:59 | |
So there are some questions
for universities. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
Theresa May speaking earlier. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:02 | |
Well, to discuss this we're joined
by David Willetts, he's the chair | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
of the Resolution Foundation
think-tank and was the | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
Universities Minister
during the coalition government. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:11 | |
You with the architect who designed
the current system. What do you make | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
of the Prime Minister saying there
is something wrong with the current | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
student finance system and she
understands peoples concerns? I | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
think there are some concerns and
you covered them in your | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
introduction. Interest rates is an
issue. Pressure for students on | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
their budgets when they are at
university, so bringing back | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
maintenance grants would be a good
thing. But overall, I think a system | 0:16:32 | 0:16:37 | |
where graduates pay back only when
they are in a well-paid job, is a | 0:16:37 | 0:16:42 | |
fair and sensible way of funding
higher education. The Prime Minister | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
isn't criticising the core principle
you have just outlined, but she has | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
said the competitive market between
universities, the system of variable | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
tuition fees envisaged, it has
simply not emerged. That is true, | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
and it is a major flaw. I originally
thought we would see price | 0:16:58 | 0:17:03 | |
competition, and we haven't seen
that. I think we understand why. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
First of all, students do not pay up
front, which is a good thing, but | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
because of that, a graduate
repayment system, saying one course | 0:17:11 | 0:17:16 | |
is 7000 and another is 8000, isn't
relevant to them. And secondly, when | 0:17:16 | 0:17:21 | |
you try to work out how you
differentiate these in different | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
courses, you rapidly find out there
is no settled view on how to do it. | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
It would be very hard. Lots of
people come to me and say we should | 0:17:28 | 0:17:33 | |
have differential fees, and I ask on
what basis, and they all have | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
different models. Trying to say we
should have subjects, or salaries of | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
graduates come you soon find you are
in an incredibly complicated system. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
I think this being a contribution
everybody makes to higher education | 0:17:44 | 0:17:48 | |
that you pay back when you graduate
is a workable model. You haven't | 0:17:48 | 0:17:55 | |
addressed the basic criticism from
the Prime Minister that the market | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
does not exist to stop almost all
universities charge the maximum. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
That was a core part of the system
you devised and it has failed. There | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
is a market, but it works in a
different way. In the old days when | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
it was public spending, the
government allocated a fixed number | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
of places to eat university. Now
universities are not financed out of | 0:18:12 | 0:18:18 | |
public spending, but instead through
the graduate contribution scheme, we | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
have lower number controls so more
universities get their first choice. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:29 | |
Popular universities expand and less
popular universities are shrinking. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:34 | |
That's not the competition you
expected when you set up the scheme. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:41 | |
The competition is absolutely one of
the crucial features of the new | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
model. Is that we wouldn't have the
government fixing the number of | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
places. And universities, more
universities, are able to take more | 0:18:47 | 0:18:52 | |
students getting their first choice
university because the popular | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
universities can expand. Looking at
the adverts on the tube, looked at | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
the websites, you will find
universities are absolutely | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
competing with each other for
students. So why is the government | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
deciding there needs to be a review,
if there are serious concerns and it | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
is working so brilliantly? I
understand the interest rate | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
pressures and pressures on students.
The other issue is parents are | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
worried... That could be dealt with.
A review implies that there is | 0:19:19 | 0:19:22 | |
something wrong at the heart of the
system. I take your point about the | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
way you see the market working. But
the Prime Minister is very specific. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
The level of fees charged do not
relate to the cost or quality of the | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
course. Do you think it costs as
much for an arts course, let's take | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
a history degree, as it is to study
engineering? It costs more to | 0:19:40 | 0:19:46 | |
deliver an engineering course, which
is why there was already in the | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
system an extra item of public
spending to help universities with a | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
higher cost of engineering, and it
would be a good result from the | 0:19:54 | 0:19:56 | |
review if they said extra public
resource for high cost subject | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
should be increased. But you
wouldn't want to see courses being | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
charged at different levels? This is
the day after the Baftas. Are we | 0:20:03 | 0:20:09 | |
supposed to say that doing an arts
subject is less valuable than a | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
science subject? We don't know how
the British economy is going to | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
develop. I am a free marketeer and I
don't think governments can predict | 0:20:17 | 0:20:21 | |
the value of individual degrees or
should interfere in individual | 0:20:21 | 0:20:27 | |
student choices. Is it fair that a
course that costs 4500 to deliver | 0:20:27 | 0:20:33 | |
costs more than £9,000 question mark
we don't know of any courses that | 0:20:33 | 0:20:39 | |
cost 4500 to deliver. You just said
engineering courses cost more. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:45 | |
Either university needs to charge
less, all that money is still | 0:20:45 | 0:20:50 | |
available to go into the resources
of the University that can help pay | 0:20:50 | 0:20:55 | |
for shared university facilities
that all students use. Isn't it | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
damning that the Conservative
government is now effectively saying | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
and admitting that its own policy in
higher education hasn't worked? Not | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
at all. What the Conservative Party
is saying that with regards to the | 0:21:06 | 0:21:11 | |
reforms David Boote Ford, he was a
brilliant minister and I was a | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
pleasure to work with him on that,
-- what David puts forward. So why | 0:21:14 | 0:21:20 | |
is there a review and the Prime
Minister says there are serious | 0:21:20 | 0:21:25 | |
concerns from students, parents and
grandparents about the system, the | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
whole system, and she shares them.
Let me put it this way. When we came | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
into government we made it clear we
want every child to get the best | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
education in life. I was the first
in my family to go to university, to | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
go on to become a lawyer, barrister
and into bond. My parents didn't | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
have a lot of money. I paid my way
to being a young barrister. I want | 0:21:42 | 0:21:46 | |
every child on merits to get there.
I accept the education and costing | 0:21:46 | 0:21:51 | |
at the moment which is raised with
me by constituents is very | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
expensive. So would you bring down
these? We need to look at everything | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
will stop this review would look at
ensuring we get the right amount of | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
resources for courses. We look at
the issue of interest. Make sure the | 0:22:03 | 0:22:10 | |
point for students and affordability
is a tad. The point you raise about | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
the cost of running those courses,
and also the benefit as to the | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
economy as a whole. You would
interfere in a market in the way | 0:22:16 | 0:22:23 | |
David Willetts has said the
government should not do? We need to | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
look at the whole aspect. To make
sure we get the right system in | 0:22:27 | 0:22:32 | |
place and address the issue of cost.
We have one of the most expensive... | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
You were responsible, you were in
the coalition government that raised | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
the fees. I wanted to make sure more
people from disadvantaged | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
backgrounds were able to go to
higher education, and I am proud | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
that. All the warnings that
children, students from | 0:22:47 | 0:22:52 | |
disadvantaged families would not and
would stop going to university, that | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
has not materialised. I think that
is right, but over the last year we | 0:22:55 | 0:23:00 | |
have seen numbers start to drop, the
ratio of numbers between | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
disadvantaged students compare to
the most advantaged, is getting | 0:23:03 | 0:23:07 | |
higher in terms of accessing higher
education. Disadvantaged students | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
finish university with much greater
depth than advantaged students, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
57,000 instead of 40 3000. That's
because of the maintenance grant and | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
loan is being taken away, and a
system of student fees. They also | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
less likely to earn the same amount
as more advantaged students. Your | 0:23:23 | 0:23:29 | |
concern is about students from less
well-off families, students who | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
struggle to meet some of the cost as
well as having some of the debts | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
despite the job they might get at
the end. Do you accept abolishing | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
tuition fees would help the very
richest students as well? It would | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
help every student. Is that the
right way to devise a system? Is not | 0:23:43 | 0:23:49 | |
just about the ratio, it's the
culture of debt it creates. Students | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
leaving with an average of £50,000
after three years in university is | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
not good for the society or the
country. The last financial crash | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
started as a result partly as a
consequence of the culture of debt | 0:23:59 | 0:24:06 | |
in society. Is it the same student
debt people take out credit cards? | 0:24:06 | 0:24:11 | |
It is treated differently. Just to
pick on something they have touched | 0:24:11 | 0:24:16 | |
on here, the variable fees. The
proposals we have seen from the | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
secretary of State in the last
couple of days have suggested | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
science stem courses should be
charged at a higher rate than arts | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
courses. Companies looking at that
thinking, we have a huge skills gap | 0:24:25 | 0:24:30 | |
in Stem subjects will think, why on
earth would we deter students even | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
more than we do currently. It
doesn't look that access to those | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
courses at all. We don't but
students who want to do Stem | 0:24:38 | 0:24:44 | |
subjects. Listening to the Secretary
of State, he said it's something the | 0:24:44 | 0:24:48 | |
government will ensure, extra
resources are put in place to | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
support Stem subjects. The review
will take into account all aspects | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
of supporting students with regards
to Stem subjects to ensure that | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
those who can contribute more to the
economy given the support they need. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
This government has been ever eight
years, why does it want another | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
review? It's a government that's out
of ideas. You say it's a | 0:25:05 | 0:25:10 | |
straightforward scenario where you
would wipe student debt and abolish | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
tuition fees, which would cost about
12 billion. And use the same | 0:25:13 | 0:25:17 | |
money... 11.2 billion, and you would
use corporation tax to pay for that | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
and the social health care service
and policing, so the same money goes | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
over and over again. Your figures...
Labour has promised to abolish | 0:25:25 | 0:25:31 | |
tuition fees. Politically, that is
difficult for the Conservative Party | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
to ever match. I don't think we
should match it. The trouble is, if | 0:25:34 | 0:25:40 | |
I had £11 billion to spend on
education, which would be a | 0:25:40 | 0:25:45 | |
fantastic opportunity, helping
affluent graduates would not be a | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
high priority. It should go to
nurseries and schools and | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
universities. Given, as you
established, the crucial politics of | 0:25:51 | 0:25:57 | |
all this is that it is not like
conventional debt. It is not an | 0:25:57 | 0:26:01 | |
overdraft or mortgage. I think
parents fear it somehow makes it | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
harder for their kids to get started
on the housing ladder, because it is | 0:26:05 | 0:26:08 | |
a debt, but it does not get in the
way of accessing conventional | 0:26:08 | 0:26:13 | |
borrowing to help their lives as
adults. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:18 | |
Our most dedicated fans will have
noticed that the Daily Politics | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
was off air last week
as Parliament wasn't sitting. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
But that doesn't mean
politics grinds to a halt. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
So what did we miss last week? | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
On Wednesday, Boris Johnson,
gave his Valentine's address - | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
billed as message of love
for liberal Remainers, | 0:26:29 | 0:26:31 | |
saying that Brexit was not "not some
reactionary Faragist concept", | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
but that it would be "a disastrous
mistake" to try to stop it. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:40 | |
On Saturday, Theresa May landed
in Munich with a message | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
of reassurance to European partners
over security - with a continuing | 0:26:45 | 0:26:50 | |
commitment to Europol
and the European Arrest Warrant - | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
even if that meant some ongoing role
for the European Court of Justice. | 0:26:54 | 0:26:59 | |
And then there were tabloid stories
alluding to meetings | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
between a former Czechoslovakian spy
and Jeremy Corbyn in the 1980s. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:05 | |
Labour says the stories
are "scurrilous". | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
And finally, Ukip will need to find
yet another leader as leader | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
Henry Bolton was ousted
in an extraordinary general | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
meeting of the party
in Birmingham on Saturday. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
Well, to pick on some of those
stories and also to talk us | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
through the week ahead,
I'm joined now by Lucy Fisher of | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
The Times and Henry Mance of the FT. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:27 | |
Welcome to both of you. Henry,
journalists were not allowed into | 0:27:27 | 0:27:31 | |
the extraordinary meeting, but you
somehow managed to smuggle yourself | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
into the room. I got lucky. I'm
amazed I wasn't spotted because I | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
was half the age of everyone there.
Don't boast! I hitched on somebody | 0:27:39 | 0:27:45 | |
who had a copy of the Financial
Times at the event and sat quietly | 0:27:45 | 0:27:50 | |
with a flyer saying, back Henry
Bolton. I didn't use my phone, there | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
was a strict ban, and it was an
amazing sight seeing people get up | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
to make speeches in 1500 people
there, to the credit of Ukip. The | 0:27:57 | 0:28:02 | |
atmosphere around Henry Bolton? A
pretty muted reception, you could | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
tell straightaway he was going. The
reason they didn't allow journalists | 0:28:05 | 0:28:09 | |
in was they were terrified of other
political opponents getting videos | 0:28:09 | 0:28:14 | |
of leading party members going at
each other, which they did. There | 0:28:14 | 0:28:19 | |
were threats of legal action, people
were late. It was a political | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
circus. It underlines everything you
ever believe. Gerard Batten is the | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
interim leader. Who will be the next
leader and will the party survive? | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
It could be Gerard Batten. He wants
it going in the direction of being | 0:28:32 | 0:28:37 | |
an anti-Islam party. In the last
leadership election that Henry | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
Bolton windbag, there is a large
portion of the party who want to go | 0:28:40 | 0:28:44 | |
that direction. There was a female
candidate running on that ticket. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
There is some suggestion Suzanne
Evans, former Tory councillor and | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
long-time Ukip figure, could run.
I'm not sure it has a future. One | 0:28:51 | 0:28:54 | |
problem is the finances will stop
once we leave the European Union | 0:28:54 | 0:28:58 | |
they will no longer have any peas
and on top of that they have a | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
£200,000 bill for a libel case due.
I think it's unclear how they will | 0:29:01 | 0:29:07 | |
struggle on. Are their votes up for
grabs? There are not that many of | 0:29:07 | 0:29:11 | |
them left. Two, three and 4% in the
opinion polls, not standing in most | 0:29:11 | 0:29:16 | |
seats last time, so we are getting
close to the bottom already. Louise | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
Haigh, the story about the Labour
leader meeting a former | 0:29:20 | 0:29:26 | |
Czechoslovakian spy. Some saying
that he paid Jeremy Corbyn to pass | 0:29:26 | 0:29:32 | |
on information to Prague and Moscow,
a charge the Labour leader denies. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:38 | |
It has been reiterated there is
nothing in the archive to suggest | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
Jeremy Corbyn was an informer, but
he was a person, according to our | 0:29:42 | 0:29:46 | |
source, of interest to the Secret
Service. Are you comfortable with | 0:29:46 | 0:29:51 | |
the fact the Labour leader was a
person of interest to the | 0:29:51 | 0:29:55 | |
Czechoslovakian Secret Service when
they were enemies in the Cold War? I | 0:29:55 | 0:29:59 | |
have seen conflicting reports. You
said that Jeremy Corbyn was paid | 0:29:59 | 0:30:03 | |
money, I have seen of the reports
were under no circumstances did he | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
give Jeremy Corbyn money. Reports
are very thin. He admitted he met a | 0:30:06 | 0:30:11 | |
Czechoslovakian diplomat, but are
you comfortable with the fact that | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
there was contact between the Labour
leader, he says a Czechoslovakian | 0:30:14 | 0:30:18 | |
diplomat, and others have said he
was a former agent. Are you | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
comfortable with the fact those
contacts were made in the Cold War? | 0:30:21 | 0:30:26 | |
Jeremy has been interested in
foreign policy issues his entire | 0:30:26 | 0:30:28 | |
career. I don't know if he was sat
on the foreign policy select | 0:30:28 | 0:30:32 | |
committee at the time but he has sat
on it in the past. You meet people | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
from other countries and other
governments in all walks of life in | 0:30:35 | 0:30:41 | |
this job. I don't think there is any
issue with him eating this | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
individual, if he claims to be a
diplomat at the times. And as MPs we | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
do not have the ability to vet
people when they come in, we can't | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
double-check if they say who they
are. You have to take people at face | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
value when they come to see you. You
say you don't have the ability to | 0:30:53 | 0:30:57 | |
vet people, but it is important to
know the details of any contact. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:02 | |
Jeremy Corbyn was a backbench MP
then, but is now leader of the | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
Labour Party, any contact he may
have had with people in the Eastern | 0:31:05 | 0:31:11 | |
Bloc when the Cold War was going on.
That should absolutely be put on the | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
table. But Jeremy and John McDonnell
and Ken Livingstone have all denied | 0:31:15 | 0:31:20 | |
absolutely that they were informants
or agents or anything of this | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
nature. I believe this former spy
also claims the Czechoslovakians | 0:31:23 | 0:31:27 | |
were behind live aid as well. It
seems he not a particularly reliable | 0:31:27 | 0:31:31 | |
source. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
around Jeremy Corbyn's antipathy
towards what he sees as western | 0:31:37 | 0:31:41 | |
imperialism and his past sympathies
for some... The Soviet bloc. It has | 0:31:41 | 0:31:47 | |
put those back front and centre of
the discourse. Whether this will | 0:31:47 | 0:31:52 | |
bent support for him, I am not
convinced, people knew about these | 0:31:52 | 0:31:56 | |
contacts, these sentiments that he
had, before the general election and | 0:31:56 | 0:32:01 | |
it did not hurt him then. Surprised?
As recently as 2013, Jeremy Corbyn | 0:32:01 | 0:32:08 | |
said Hugo Chavez had made a massive
contribution to the world, people | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
know that these on one extreme, if
he were Prime Minister, we would see | 0:32:11 | 0:32:15 | |
a change to foreign policy, we
should be aware that there is a big | 0:32:15 | 0:32:19 | |
change on the table. Let's talk
about Boris Johnson's speech from | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
last week. Did not land in quite the
way that the Foreign Secretary may | 0:32:22 | 0:32:29 | |
have anticipated. He is seen as a
toxic figure among Remainers, even | 0:32:29 | 0:32:33 | |
before stepping out on stage, Chuka
Umunna, he said he was completely | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
unqualified to preach, as they put
it. To me, his speech was | 0:32:37 | 0:32:42 | |
interesting only, -- interesting
tonally coming he was talking about | 0:32:42 | 0:32:49 | |
a deal, it was a speech aimed at
Theresa May and the rest of the | 0:32:49 | 0:32:53 | |
cabinet colleagues, urging them to
try to make more of a positive tone | 0:32:53 | 0:32:58 | |
around Brexit, there has been a
vacuum on that side of the debate. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
Apart from time, what was the most
important thing that Boris Johnson | 0:33:01 | 0:33:05 | |
said? He made it very clear, where
people are doubting ability to go | 0:33:05 | 0:33:09 | |
out there and make a great success
of Brexit, he put it clearly, for us | 0:33:09 | 0:33:13 | |
as a country, this is a great
opportunity to go out there, forge | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
relationships around the world, and
make sure we can benefit as much as | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
we can from the new relationship we
are going to have with... What was | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
said about the new relationship?
What he said very clearly, we are | 0:33:25 | 0:33:30 | |
leaving the European Union but not
leaving Europe, so therefore... But | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
that is but that is rhetoric, that
is rhetoric. INAUDIBLE | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
As Lucy Fisher was saying, that was
about time, optimistic note, what | 0:33:38 | 0:33:44 | |
did he say of any importance in
terms of the negotiations? What he | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
said was, look, our relationship
with Europe, we want an enhanced | 0:33:48 | 0:33:53 | |
relationship at every level, whether
with defence, security, whether it | 0:33:53 | 0:33:57 | |
is with trade. We are not leaving
European partners, leaving the | 0:33:57 | 0:34:01 | |
European Union, we want to bring the
deal with us. It is in their | 0:34:01 | 0:34:05 | |
interest and our interest and we
have the commitment to make that | 0:34:05 | 0:34:08 | |
happen. When the trade bill comes
back to the Commons, there will be | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
an amendment calling for Britain to
remain in the customs union, would | 0:34:12 | 0:34:15 | |
you both have that amendment? I
don't know who is putting it forward | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
so I cannot commit. Would you vote
for an amendment that Britain should | 0:34:19 | 0:34:26 | |
stay in the customs union?
Personally I would, I don't think it | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
should be cut off the table and I
don't see how we can resolve the | 0:34:30 | 0:34:34 | |
hard border issue without a customs
union or the customs union. Would | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
you like to see Jeremy Corbyn
whipped Labour MPs into voting for a | 0:34:37 | 0:34:42 | |
motion that would say that Britain
stays in the customs union. | 0:34:42 | 0:34:44 | |
Depending upon the text, I would
support that. You would like to see | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
the Labour leadership vote. -- | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
what if Theresa May were defeated,
she has categorically said that we | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
will leave. We have made it very
clear. Labour whips. Labour have | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
already tried to frustrate the
process, 243 Labour MPs had not vote | 0:35:01 | 0:35:06 | |
for the European withdrawal bill
which would end the supremacy of the | 0:35:06 | 0:35:10 | |
European laws, we have made it
clear, we want to make this a | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
success, they can frustrate its. It
is called accountability, not | 0:35:13 | 0:35:17 | |
frustration. Rest of the Leslie,
result of the referendum will not | 0:35:17 | 0:35:21 | |
even be accepted, amendment after
amendment... INAUDIBLE | 0:35:21 | 0:35:24 | |
... Before we get into too much more
bickering, thank you very much with | 0:35:24 | 0:35:30 | |
joining us. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
The Government is facing calls
for an early Commons vote | 0:35:35 | 0:35:36 | |
on whether to press ahead with plans
to cut the number of | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
MPs from 650 to 600. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
Parliament is due to vote
in the autumn on new parliamentary | 0:35:41 | 0:35:43 | |
boundaries, based on rule changes
introduced by the coalition in 2011. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:46 | |
However, the Public Administration
and Constitutional Affairs Committee | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
is warning today that the measure
is unlikely to pass and, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
unless Parliament decides
to have a new boundary review, | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
the next election will be fought
on the existing boundaries based | 0:35:53 | 0:35:55 | |
on population data more than 20
years out of date. | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
Tony Bellringer is
the Deputy Secretary | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
to the Boundary Commission
for England, he joins me now. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:10 | |
If there were to be a new boundary
review, would your heart sink if you | 0:36:10 | 0:36:14 | |
had to do it again? Thank you, good
afternoon, would be a little | 0:36:14 | 0:36:20 | |
frustrating as staff, I have to
admit, given that we did start a | 0:36:20 | 0:36:24 | |
review in 2011 after new legislation
was passed, and that failed to get | 0:36:24 | 0:36:31 | |
to the end for various reasons. To
have it happen again would be | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
dispiriting. Dispiriting, but
possible? Would just about be | 0:36:34 | 0:36:41 | |
possible, gave evidence to the
committee around the turn of the | 0:36:41 | 0:36:47 | |
year, the current arrangements ask
us to complete a review, in short | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
three years, end to end, the
legislation requires us through | 0:36:51 | 0:36:55 | |
various stages of consultation, we
have some 35,000 responses, in the | 0:36:55 | 0:37:01 | |
review so far, takes a long time to
look through those. As Nelly, what | 0:37:01 | 0:37:05 | |
would you think of the idea of a new
boundary review, keeping the same | 0:37:05 | 0:37:10 | |
number of MPs, 650? Agnostic!
LAUGHTER | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
Fair enough. The number is just the
number for us at the end of the day. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:21 | |
It is the number we must work with,
how we must distribute it across the | 0:37:21 | 0:37:25 | |
country, according to a formula. It
is what it is. The number. We do not | 0:37:25 | 0:37:30 | |
have a view, certainly not publicly
on what the number should be, that | 0:37:30 | 0:37:35 | |
is a matter for politicians and
Parliament. Thank you very much. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
Would you like to see a new review,
as is being suggested by the Commons | 0:37:39 | 0:37:45 | |
public administration Constitutional
affairs committee and Bernard Jenkin | 0:37:45 | 0:37:46 | |
your colleague to keep the number of
MPs at 650? I had a manifesto | 0:37:46 | 0:37:51 | |
commitment to reduce it down to 200,
-- reduce it from 650 down to 600, I | 0:37:51 | 0:38:00 | |
want that to go ahead because it is
important to have a similar level of | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
representation in parliament but the
points made by Bernard of course we | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
have to look at the data that was
used was prior to 2015, some say the | 0:38:06 | 0:38:11 | |
data is slightly outdated, and... 20
years. The data they used this was | 0:38:11 | 0:38:19 | |
2015... For the current boundaries,
the previous one, 20 years, yes you | 0:38:19 | 0:38:24 | |
are absolutely right. Is it
important to actually be in a | 0:38:24 | 0:38:28 | |
situation if the Prime Minister
says, she is going to go ahead with | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
cutting the number, if it does not
have the support of MPs, if it is | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
not going to get through. Bernard is
a brilliant college, working very | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
hard on the committee, but there is
a manifesto commitment from us the | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
Conservatives to reduce the cost of
politics to ensure that members of | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
Parliament have equal constituents,
who I think it is fair that I have | 0:38:46 | 0:38:51 | |
72000 and others may have 45,000, I
think that is unfair. Will it get | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
through? It is a manifesto
commitment and I would like to | 0:38:55 | 0:38:59 | |
honour that. Do you support it? No,
the idea that this is cutting the | 0:38:59 | 0:39:04 | |
cost of politics, when the Tories
have packed the House of Lords with | 0:39:04 | 0:39:07 | |
Lords that... Tony Blair did it.
INAUDIBLE | 0:39:07 | 0:39:12 | |
You have... This is about cutting
the number of Labour seats, because | 0:39:12 | 0:39:17 | |
the number of people not in the
electoral register in Labour areas | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
is going to be higher than... But
you... The point to reduce the | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
number of constituencies and make
them a more equal size in terms of | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
the number of people and
constituencies, that is fair. Yes, | 0:39:28 | 0:39:32 | |
absolutely, I support the principle
but as Raymond has said, the | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
electoral data they are using, that
they use the 2015, it is already | 0:39:35 | 0:39:40 | |
well out of date, more than a
million extra people registered to | 0:39:40 | 0:39:44 | |
vote ahead of the European
referendum, tens of thousands of | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
additional students, are we saying
their votes do not count and will | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
not count in the boundary review?
Will you support a new review? Yes, | 0:39:50 | 0:39:54 | |
I will. You will back the proposal
by Bernard Jenkins. Will it get | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
through if there is not a new
review? I think the wafer thin | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
majority for the Tories at the
moment, they will struggle to vote | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
to reduce the number of MPs to 600.
I'm sorry to say this to you, you | 0:40:05 | 0:40:10 | |
may be conducting a new review,
dispiriting as it sounds(!) thank | 0:40:10 | 0:40:15 | |
you. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:16 | |
There seems to have been a seismic
shift in sexual politics in the last | 0:40:22 | 0:40:26 | |
six months with the "Me Too"
campaign, the debate | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
about the gender pay gap | 0:40:28 | 0:40:29 | |
and the ending of "grid girls"
in Formula One racing. | 0:40:29 | 0:40:31 | |
But is it wrong for women
to exploit their beauty? | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
Sociologist Catherine Hakim thinks
women should use their "erotic | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
capital" to get ahead. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:37 | |
Here's her soapbox. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
MUSIC: Flashing Lights
by Kanye West ft Dwele. | 0:40:45 | 0:40:47 | |
# Flashing lights | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
The BBC, Tesco and other employers
have started analyses of the reasons | 0:40:50 | 0:40:55 | |
for the differences between men
and women and their earnings. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:59 | |
However, some feminist campaigners
have started to destroy women's | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
ability to exploit their good looks
and charm, or what I would call, | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
their "erotic capital." | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
Women have a clear advantage | 0:41:08 | 0:41:10 | |
in exploiting their
good looks over men. | 0:41:10 | 0:41:15 | |
# As I recall, I know you love
to show off | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
# But I never thought that
you would take it this far | 0:41:17 | 0:41:21 | |
# What do I know? | 0:41:21 | 0:41:27 | |
Any activity, any enterprise,
any sport, | 0:41:27 | 0:41:32 | |
is raised to a higher level | 0:41:32 | 0:41:33 | |
if those involved
are attractive, beautiful, | 0:41:33 | 0:41:35 | |
handsome people. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:36 | |
Airlines know this,
restaurants and bars know it. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
Beautiful women sell more goods
and services than beautiful men. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
So that's why we have Formula 1 grid
girls, darts showgirls, | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
and in the United States | 0:41:44 | 0:41:46 | |
there are beautiful young
cheerleaders at half-time | 0:41:46 | 0:41:48 | |
in major sporting events. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:52 | |
No one objects to David Beckham
earning millions from posing | 0:41:52 | 0:41:54 | |
in underwear, almost naked, | 0:41:54 | 0:41:56 | |
on huge billboards in public places. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
So why do we object to women doing
exactly the same thing? | 0:41:59 | 0:42:04 | |
Objections come from
deeply-rooted patriarchal values | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
that are still embedded
in modern sexual politics. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:14 | |
And that feminist ideology | 0:42:14 | 0:42:21 | |
has unwittingly reinforced
instead of eliminating. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
Modern objections, modern
feminist objections, | 0:42:24 | 0:42:25 | |
are now against women
exploiting their good looks | 0:42:25 | 0:42:27 | |
instead of encouraging them
to negotiate for higher pay. | 0:42:27 | 0:42:34 | |
The returns to attractiveness
and beauty | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
equal the returns to
educational qualifications. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
Those who have erotic capital
have a huge advantage. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:45 | |
Men and women with a good
appearance, | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
good looks and a pleasant manner, | 0:42:48 | 0:42:50 | |
can earn on average between 10%
and 20% more than other people. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
Exceptionally attractive
people earn lots more. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:58 | |
Rihanna has exploited her good looks | 0:42:58 | 0:43:01 | |
and has been photographed in public
wearing semi-nude dresses. | 0:43:01 | 0:43:06 | |
Why do we treat lesser-earning
women differently? | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
Just like men, women should be able
to earn their living | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
doing whatever they want, | 0:43:13 | 0:43:15 | |
including modelling,
stripping, lap dancing, | 0:43:15 | 0:43:19 | |
Page 3 photoshoots, burlesque shows. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
Women should be allowed
to exploit their erotic capital | 0:43:21 | 0:43:24 | |
in exactly the same way
men already do. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:32 | |
STUDIO: And Catherine
Hakim joins me now. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:41 | |
Last night, at the BAFTA awards, all
the female stars turned out in | 0:43:41 | 0:43:45 | |
black, to show solidarity with the
movement against sexual harassment. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:50 | |
Are you on the wrong side of the
argument here, especially with the | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
metoo campaign? It is fashionable to
join this campaign, this #metoo | 0:43:54 | 0:44:02 | |
campaign, it is fashionable to wear
black to show solidarity but | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
actually, it is a backlash towards
patriarchal and puritanical | 0:44:06 | 0:44:10 | |
attitudes towards erotic sexuality,
towards... Isn't it a backlash | 0:44:10 | 0:44:17 | |
against men having dominated in
semi-spheres of life and women | 0:44:17 | 0:44:22 | |
feeling ill treated, in gender pay
or sexual harassment? I won't go | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
into the pay gap, that is being
dealt with by legislation in Britain | 0:44:27 | 0:44:32 | |
and North America, but... You said
it was against women exploiting good | 0:44:32 | 0:44:36 | |
looks, I say it is a backlash
against the way they have been | 0:44:36 | 0:44:40 | |
treated in various spheres, whether
it is at work or outside in the | 0:44:40 | 0:44:43 | |
domestic sphere. People have changed
their attitudes towards the way they | 0:44:43 | 0:44:49 | |
treat women in public life, there is
no question there has been a huge | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
change there. An awful lot of the
complaints today are about | 0:44:53 | 0:44:57 | |
historical things, about things that
happened ten fifth, ten, 20 years | 0:44:57 | 0:45:01 | |
ago. You don't think it is right to
address those? It is not the time | 0:45:01 | 0:45:07 | |
banned worth the time and effort
that is being spent on it, what we | 0:45:07 | 0:45:11 | |
should look at is the way forward in
the 21st-century, erotic capital | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
still has value, in fact, in my
book, I show that it has more value | 0:45:15 | 0:45:21 | |
in the 21st-century than it did in
the past, so we will have an | 0:45:21 | 0:45:25 | |
increasing problem of what is called
sexual harassment which is a lot of | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
the time men paying attention to
women because they are attracted to | 0:45:28 | 0:45:32 | |
women. What do you say to that, it
is not worth the time being spent, | 0:45:32 | 0:45:37 | |
to look at and investigate historic
cases of sexual harassment or where | 0:45:37 | 0:45:42 | |
women have been exploited and
actually, because of some of the | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
campaigns running now, it will lead
to a further backlash of sexual | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
harassment. I think what the #metoo
campaign has its boast is that | 0:45:48 | 0:45:53 | |
sexual harassment and abuse of women
is still going on in every industry, | 0:45:53 | 0:45:58 | |
in every sector of our society
today, it was worse 40, 50 years ago | 0:45:58 | 0:46:04 | |
but it is still going on in
Westminster, in journalism, in all | 0:46:04 | 0:46:09 | |
sectors, and I believe that the need
to campaign is a backlash to the | 0:46:09 | 0:46:13 | |
object of vocation of women, to the
perception of women as passive | 0:46:13 | 0:46:17 | |
creatures on the sidelines of men's.
What about Rhianna, what about... | 0:46:17 | 0:46:23 | |
She goes on to the stage half naked.
Nothing against sexual empowerment, | 0:46:23 | 0:46:30 | |
the problem I have with the Grid
girls, with the darts, women are | 0:46:30 | 0:46:36 | |
seen as passive creatures, the men
are daredevil races and sportsmen. | 0:46:36 | 0:46:40 | |
Little boys and girls watching that
teaches them something terrible | 0:46:40 | 0:46:45 | |
about the society. -- #metoo
campaign. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:52 | |
Is there a difference between women
being able to capitalise their | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
erotic capital, as you call it.
Questions about whether Grid girls | 0:46:57 | 0:47:02 | |
and darts walk on girls should be
banned. Why shouldn't they be? | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
Beauty has always had an erotic
element. The reason David Beckham | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
earns millions from posing naked is
because there is an erotic element | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
there. It's a very puritanical
reaction to say women shouldn't earn | 0:47:15 | 0:47:19 | |
money by being beautiful and
attractive, decorating and being | 0:47:19 | 0:47:26 | |
involved in public events, sports
events and other events. Except, how | 0:47:26 | 0:47:31 | |
many public events are that way you
see men and boys being decorative in | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
the same way. We don't have Grid
boys or walk on boys in darts. | 0:47:34 | 0:47:40 | |
Perhaps we should have them. George
Clooney has no compunction at all | 0:47:40 | 0:47:44 | |
about earning millions from the fact
that he decorates adverts for copy | 0:47:44 | 0:47:49 | |
machines. We -- coffee machines. We
allow men to do it. Do you accept | 0:47:49 | 0:47:59 | |
that hasn't been a tradition in the
past of allowing boys and men to be | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
exposed in the same way as women and
girls? We see more and more of it | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
today. And you think it's a good
thing? I think it's equalising. I | 0:48:06 | 0:48:12 | |
think we do treat George Clooney
differently when advertising | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
products than we do with other
Hollywood stars. In Caitlin Moran's | 0:48:15 | 0:48:21 | |
book, how to make a woman, she says
the basic tenet of whether sexism is | 0:48:21 | 0:48:26 | |
happening is whether the men are
having to do it. Our men walking on | 0:48:26 | 0:48:31 | |
female sports stars, do they wave
flight smack as women drive past in | 0:48:31 | 0:48:37 | |
Formula 1 cars? They are not,
because men are not systematically | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
and routinely objectified in
society. Why should women be | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
prevented from using their good
looks to earn decent money in | 0:48:44 | 0:48:48 | |
Formula 1 and darts competitions? I
believe in a free society and that | 0:48:48 | 0:48:53 | |
it's up to each individual on how
they want to dress, how they don't | 0:48:53 | 0:48:56 | |
want to dress and what they want to
do within the parameters of the law, | 0:48:56 | 0:49:00 | |
there should always be respected and
civility towards one another. When I | 0:49:00 | 0:49:05 | |
go to sports events, I want to see
brilliant sportswomen... Should be | 0:49:05 | 0:49:13 | |
glamour girls be dropped? I think
it's up to each organisation to | 0:49:13 | 0:49:16 | |
determine what is right for them.
It's not up to me as a politician to | 0:49:16 | 0:49:20 | |
regulate what sporting organisations
should do. There should always be | 0:49:20 | 0:49:23 | |
respected and civility but it's up
to each sporting organisation to | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
determine how they run themselves.
Would you accept there is a | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
difference between George Clooney,
David Beckham and Rihanna, who do | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
what they do from a position of
power and high levels of income, and | 0:49:34 | 0:49:39 | |
it's not the same as men and women
who are earning far less and doing | 0:49:39 | 0:49:43 | |
it to survive? No, I don't think
there is a difference. Everybody who | 0:49:43 | 0:49:49 | |
works is working for an income,
whether it's high or low. I don't | 0:49:49 | 0:49:53 | |
think we should treat people who are
less famous than David Beckham and | 0:49:53 | 0:49:58 | |
George Clooney as being inferior
people who are unable to make their | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
own choices about how they want to
earn their living and what they want | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
to do with their lives. We are
infantilising women at the moment. I | 0:50:04 | 0:50:09 | |
am writing a book on sexual
politics, and one of the key themes | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
that seems to come up again and
again is women are being | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
infantilised as if they are unable
to make decisions about their lives, | 0:50:16 | 0:50:20 | |
choose their occupations and make a
calculation as to whether they want | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
to be a stripper or not, whether
they want to earn a lot of money in | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
just one night, which the they might
spend a whole month earning as a | 0:50:27 | 0:50:34 | |
shelf filler. That's a choice women
have to make. And they might have a | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
huge advantage if they have good
looks and they can exploit that. On | 0:50:38 | 0:50:42 | |
average women are a lot more
attractive than men, and that's a | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
permanent factor, seems to me.
Rehman Chishti, what do you say to | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
that?! I thought my youthful looks
were going pretty well! | 0:50:49 | 0:50:55 | |
It's been well over 18
months since Britain took | 0:50:55 | 0:50:57 | |
the momentous decision to leave
the European Union. | 0:50:57 | 0:50:59 | |
But judging by the number
of new groups being set up arguing | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
the pros and cons of leaving the EU
you'd be forgiven for thinking | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
that the decision hasn't necessarily
been settled for good. | 0:51:05 | 0:51:08 | |
Today sees the launch
of a new anti-Brexit party called | 0:51:08 | 0:51:10 | |
Renew which has reportedly been
getting advice from MPs in | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
Emmanuel Macron's En Marche party. | 0:51:14 | 0:51:22 | |
As well as Renew, who we saw there,
a group of pro-Brexit academics has | 0:51:26 | 0:51:29 | |
also been launched to provide expert
analysis in favour of leaving | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
the European Union. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:33 | |
So, joining me now,
is Dr Graham Gudgin, | 0:51:33 | 0:51:35 | |
a Cambridge University economist
and the editor of | 0:51:35 | 0:51:37 | |
Briefings for Brexit. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:38 | |
Aand we also have James Torrance,
a co-founder of Renew - | 0:51:38 | 0:51:40 | |
he's in central London
where the party is being officially | 0:51:40 | 0:51:43 | |
launched right now. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:44 | |
James Torrance, why do we need an
anti-Brexit party, when we already | 0:51:44 | 0:51:46 | |
have the Liberal Democrats and the
Green Party? The SNP are not | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
national and the Liberal Democrats
have been widely discredited. The | 0:51:49 | 0:51:51 | |
Green Party are very focused on a
particular range of issues as well | 0:51:51 | 0:51:53 | |
as Brexit. We need a party to
provide an anti-Brexit message that | 0:51:53 | 0:51:58 | |
is rooted in pragmatic and centrist
policies that fix the problems in | 0:51:58 | 0:52:02 | |
society rather than create new ones.
I have to apologise because the | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
quality of the lying to you is not
very good. We will try again. -- the | 0:52:06 | 0:52:11 | |
quality of the line to you. This is
a little that the video of Renew | 0:52:11 | 0:52:19 | |
that you have released. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:23 | |
Hello, my name is James,
I'm an accountant from London. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
Hi, I'm Yuki, I'm a junior
doctor here in London. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
I'm Oliver. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:29 | |
I'm a small-business owner. | 0:52:29 | 0:52:30 | |
I have a consultancy
based in London. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
I'm Nicky Blair, and I live
and work in south London. | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
I'm really excited about Renew,
partly because of its attitude | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
towards Brexit and the belief it
should be reversed. | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
I thought you had to be involved
in traditional politics, | 0:52:39 | 0:52:41 | |
that somehow you needed some
connection to do that. | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
I'm really fed up with the way
that I feel this country | 0:52:44 | 0:52:46 | |
is being represented
by our MPs in Parliament. | 0:52:46 | 0:52:48 | |
Where I have felt disillusioned
with politics and really didn't know | 0:52:48 | 0:52:51 | |
where to base my vote at the last
general election, it's heartening | 0:52:51 | 0:52:54 | |
to me to feel that people
are passionate enough to step | 0:52:54 | 0:52:56 | |
forward and actually start again. | 0:52:56 | 0:53:04 | |
That's the video on the home page of
your website, James Torrance. Why is | 0:53:10 | 0:53:15 | |
everybody featured from London? I
think they were filmed right at the | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
beginning of our escapade, and we
started in London. The reality is | 0:53:18 | 0:53:23 | |
today we have more than 200
candidates from all over the UK, | 0:53:23 | 0:53:28 | |
from northern Scotland is to the
south-west. We have a good cluster | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
of candidates in the north-east. I
think today we are a national party | 0:53:32 | 0:53:36 | |
with rapid sensation all of the UK.
People might ask why you didn't | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
include people from all around the
UK later. -- with representation all | 0:53:41 | 0:53:48 | |
over the UK. Graham, why do we need
pro Brexit academics? As many of the | 0:53:48 | 0:53:55 | |
arguments haven't been made in the
press. We want to count the | 0:53:55 | 0:54:02 | |
accusations that Brexit supporters
are ill educated, misinformed, | 0:54:02 | 0:54:06 | |
misled, or Lord help us, even
sometimes racist. Isn't that an | 0:54:06 | 0:54:12 | |
admission at the bounds of expert
opinion in academia and elsewhere is | 0:54:12 | 0:54:16 | |
very worried about Brexit and the
likely economic consequences? I | 0:54:16 | 0:54:22 | |
think what you say is true. The
evidence suggests up to 90% of | 0:54:22 | 0:54:28 | |
university academics support remain.
The problem is, they get all the | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
airtime and the arguments. And there
are plenty of very senior academics | 0:54:31 | 0:54:36 | |
and very experienced people in other
areas of life who support Brexit, | 0:54:36 | 0:54:41 | |
and their arguments have not got out
very much. What we are trying to do | 0:54:41 | 0:54:45 | |
is give a platform for those people
and for those arguments. I take your | 0:54:45 | 0:54:50 | |
point is that you feel they haven't
had the air time, although we | 0:54:50 | 0:54:54 | |
certainly do have people like you on
on a regular basis talking about | 0:54:54 | 0:54:59 | |
Brexit and its advantages, but you
do accept it's a minority of your | 0:54:59 | 0:55:02 | |
colleagues to support your views.
Yes, but if you want to count heads, | 0:55:02 | 0:55:08 | |
we have the referendum and we know
the result. We are now in a part of | 0:55:08 | 0:55:13 | |
the national debate in which we are
trying to debate what is the best | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
way forward. Now it's the quality of
argument is that really count and we | 0:55:17 | 0:55:21 | |
are trying to put forward
high-quality arguments. You will | 0:55:21 | 0:55:25 | |
have heard that experts at the civil
service are saying Brexit will hit | 0:55:25 | 0:55:29 | |
growth by up to 8% over the next 15
years and a free-trade deal would | 0:55:29 | 0:55:34 | |
only add 0.2% to growth over the
same period. Do you think that's the | 0:55:34 | 0:55:40 | |
reason so many experts and academics
believe the sums on Brexit don't add | 0:55:40 | 0:55:44 | |
up. It's an important reason why
people voted to remain. I think the | 0:55:44 | 0:55:49 | |
polling shows that on the remains
side at least, the economic | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
consequences were the biggest
factor. But myself and colleagues at | 0:55:51 | 0:55:57 | |
Cambridge and Ulster University in
Northern Ireland have been looking | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
at it very carefully and we are the
only people in the UK who fully | 0:56:00 | 0:56:05 | |
represented the analysis of the
Treasury and OECD, and we find them | 0:56:05 | 0:56:10 | |
deeply flawed, greatly exaggerated
on the negative side, and we are in | 0:56:10 | 0:56:13 | |
a situation where we had the leaked
report last week that again gave | 0:56:13 | 0:56:17 | |
negative figures, but we're not told
who produced the figures, or how the | 0:56:17 | 0:56:20 | |
analysis was done. It was
essentially a secret report, | 0:56:20 | 0:56:24 | |
completely unsatisfactorily.
Presumably it was commissioned by | 0:56:24 | 0:56:29 | |
the government aren't done by the
civil service. Back to James | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
Torrance, how do you respond to the
assertion that there are many | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
Remainers Mac and remain sporting
groups who treat leave voters like | 0:56:36 | 0:56:43 | |
they are stupid. I don't believe
that at all. It's mainly leave | 0:56:43 | 0:56:48 | |
voters who generally repeat that. We
take the concerns of leave voters | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
very seriously, which is one of the
reasons we believe a new party is | 0:56:52 | 0:56:56 | |
the right answer. There are many
problems that exist in this country | 0:56:56 | 0:56:58 | |
that need to be resolved, but we
think Brexit is a poor way of | 0:56:58 | 0:57:02 | |
addressing it and will ultimately
make it worse. There are reports in | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
the press saying one of your leaders
walked out in the press conference. | 0:57:05 | 0:57:09 | |
Is that true, what happened? That
was me, actually! I came out of the | 0:57:09 | 0:57:15 | |
press conference to give this
interview! LAUGHTER | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
That's hilarious. That clears that
one up. Just before we go, you said | 0:57:18 | 0:57:26 | |
the purpose of your website is to
fight the propaganda that dismisses | 0:57:26 | 0:57:29 | |
leave voters. Do you have people
like the Renew party and anti-Brexit | 0:57:29 | 0:57:37 | |
parties in mind when you say that? I
think we have the media in general | 0:57:37 | 0:57:41 | |
and politics in general. I am
pleased to hear what James has just | 0:57:41 | 0:57:46 | |
said, but that's clearly not the
norm on the media. We have had | 0:57:46 | 0:57:51 | |
hundreds and hundreds of responses
since we set up this website 24 | 0:57:51 | 0:57:55 | |
hours ago, largely from people who
say they feel they have been | 0:57:55 | 0:58:00 | |
ignored, marginalised, and maligned,
and how glad they are to see there | 0:58:00 | 0:58:04 | |
are prominent academics who take the
same view as they do. Very briefly, | 0:58:04 | 0:58:09 | |
for a free trade with America to
make up for lost trade with the EU, | 0:58:09 | 0:58:13 | |
it would have to be an enormously in
terms of what people think is | 0:58:13 | 0:58:19 | |
actually achievable. Is it credible?
There are two things in that | 0:58:19 | 0:58:23 | |
question. You will have to be very
brief because we are running out of | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
time. We don't believe the gap is
very big, and it will take time, | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
there will be some gap, and we
believe it will be relatively | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
moderate and take some time to fill.
Thank you for doing that briefly. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:37 | |
Thank you to both of you. The answer
to our quiz now, which politician | 0:58:37 | 0:58:43 | |
did Morrissey criticise, Nicola
Sturgeon, David Cameron, Theresa May | 0:58:43 | 0:58:46 | |
or Jeremy Corbyn? It was Nicola
Sturgeon, well done. We will be back | 0:58:46 | 0:58:54 | |
tomorrow at noon. Goodbye. | 0:58:54 | 0:59:01 |