Browse content similar to 20/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:43 | |
The boss of Oxfam tells MPs he's
sorry for the damage the charity has | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
done to the people of Haiti
and the wider efforts | 0:00:46 | 0:00:48 | |
of aid workers. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
Post-Brexit Britain won't be
a 'Mad Max-style world', | 0:00:51 | 0:00:52 | |
said David Davis, as he promises
the UK will maintain high standards | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
and regulations outside the EU. | 0:00:55 | 0:01:03 | |
Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,
accuses the newspapers of spreading | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
'propaganda' about Jeremy Corbyn's
contact with a Czech | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
agent in the 1980s. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:14 | |
It's rather like sending your
opening batsmen to the crease, | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
only for them to find -
the moment the first | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
balls are bowled -
that their bats have been broken | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
before the game by the team captain. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:23 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
And we'll be looking back at some
of the biggest political | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
resignations in history. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:36 | |
All that in the next hour. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
And with us for the whole
of the programme today, | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
it's the crossbench peer,
academic, and - since yesterday - | 0:01:41 | 0:01:43 | |
member of the Government's
new review into tuition fees | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
and university funding in England. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
Alison Wolf. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:49 | |
Alison Wolf. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:50 | |
Welcome to the show. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
Thank you for inviting me. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:54 | |
Thank you for inviting me. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:55 | |
First today, let's pick up on that
appearance in front of MPs | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
by the Chief Executive of Oxfam,
Mark Goldring, following revelations | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
about the sexual misconduct
of some staff in Haiti | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
after the 2010 earthquake. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:09 | |
He began by telling the
International Development Committee | 0:02:09 | 0:02:10 | |
he was "deeply sorry" for comments
he made last week, when he suggested | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
the actions of the charity were not
the equivalent of "murdering babies | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
in their cots". | 0:02:16 | 0:02:17 | |
He went on to apologise
for the damage caused by Oxfam. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:23 | |
I repeat Oxfam's broader apology
and my personal apology. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
I am sorry, we are sorry,
for the damage that Oxfam has done, | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
both to the people of Haiti,
but also to wider efforts for aid | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
and development by possibly
undermining public support. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:39 | |
Mark Goldring apologising. Alison
Wolf, do you trust Oxfam to root out | 0:02:42 | 0:02:49 | |
the problems at the heart of this
scandal? | 0:02:49 | 0:02:50 | |
I am sure that they will take
everything to do with sexual | 0:02:50 | 0:02:55 | |
harassment and this behaviour
extremely seriously, I am quite sure | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
they will do. I do think this
highlights in many ways the | 0:02:58 | 0:03:05 | |
difficulty for huge aid agencies of
knowing what on Earth is going on | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
among them many, many staff. One of
the rather disturbing things is the | 0:03:09 | 0:03:14 | |
scale of the aid industry. The
degree to which when you arrive in a | 0:03:14 | 0:03:19 | |
country, you will find large numbers
of competing aid industries. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:26 | |
Charities. The number of people
engaged in what has become a real | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
industry. An industry which also
lives by the media. So I guess they | 0:03:30 | 0:03:36 | |
should not be surprised if they
risked dying by the media as well. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:41 | |
Is that an implication that you
would like to see them trimmed in | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
some way, the charities and aid
agencies, and funding reduced? I | 0:03:45 | 0:03:50 | |
don't want funding reduced, I am not
arguing we give too much foreign | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
aid, it is absolutely right we
should give a great deal and | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
admirable that we do so. But looking
at the way in which aid, the aid | 0:03:57 | 0:04:05 | |
industry operates, you do wonder if
this is the best thing to do to | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
empower local people, whether it
should not be scaled back, more | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
money going directly to people who
are themselves inhabitants of the | 0:04:12 | 0:04:17 | |
countries we try to help. A real
shift from this paternalistic model | 0:04:17 | 0:04:22 | |
with its thousands and thousands of
employees. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:23 | |
Let's leave it there. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
Cabinet ministers have been making
a series of speeches under the title | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
'The Road to Brexit'. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:32 | |
This morning, we've been hearing
from Environment Secretary | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
Michael Gove on farming,
and Trade Secretary Liam Fox | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
is talking about trade -
unsurprisingly. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:42 | |
First up today was the Brexit
Secretary David Davis, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
who told an audience in Vienna that
after the UK leaves the EU, it | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
won't plunge into a "Mad Max-style
world borrowed from dystopian | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
fiction", and that the UK
would always maintain high standards | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
to ensure frictionless trade
with the EU. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:56 | |
So what's all the fuss about? | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
David Davis said that fears
of a "race to the bottom" on issues | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
like workers' rights
and environmental protection | 0:05:02 | 0:05:03 | |
were "based on nothing". | 0:05:03 | 0:05:10 | |
Labour - and leaders of some
of the largest trade unions - | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
have long claimed the Conservatives
are pursuing | 0:05:13 | 0:05:15 | |
a "bargain-basement Brexit". | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
That would turn the UK into a "low
wage, offshore tax haven," | 0:05:17 | 0:05:19 | |
with assaults on workers' rights
and environmental protection. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
That was partly prompted
by the Prime Minister's oft-repeated | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
assertion that "no deal is better
than a bad deal". | 0:05:24 | 0:05:32 | |
by Philip Hammond, saying a year ago
that the UK would "do what we have | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
to do" to remain competitive,
even if "forced to change | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
our economic model". | 0:05:42 | 0:05:43 | |
And the fact that
during the referendum, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:44 | |
the Vote Leave campaign -
led by Michael Gove | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
and Boris Johnson, now senior
members of the Cabinet - | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
had claimed EU regulations costs
UK small business over | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
£600 million a week. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:54 | |
But the Government has pointed out
that its flagship EU Withdrawal Bill | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
enshrines all EU protections into UK
law, so there'll be continuity | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
immediately after Brexit. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
And just last month,
Philip Hammond said there was "no | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
appetite" for a major change
to the UK's economic model, | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
whatever people say. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:09 | |
And that people in the UK remain
attracted to a European-style social | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
economy, with strong protections
for labour, the environment, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:14 | |
and welfare recipients. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
Well, earlier, David Davis took aim
at those who claim Brexit | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
will be used as an excuse
to slash regulations. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
These fears about a race
to the bottom are based on nothing. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
Not our history, not our intentions,
not our national interest. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
Frankly, the competitive challenge
we in the UK and the European Union | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
will face from the rest
of the world, where 90% of growth | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
in markets will come from,
will not be met by a reduction | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
in the standards. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:45 | |
David Davis. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:48 | |
David Davis. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:49 | |
Well, for more, we can talk
to our chief political | 0:06:49 | 0:06:51 | |
correspondent, Vicki Young,
who's in Vienna. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
David Davis has been giving a speech
there. What did we learn from the | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
Brexit Secretary?
I think it has just been very | 0:06:57 | 0:07:03 | |
striking not just today but Theresa
May at the Munich Security | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
conference a couple of days ago, it
is all about cooperation continuing | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
into the future. You think about the
argument made by some of the | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
Conservative Party for decades, the
point of leaving the European Union | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
is because of red tape, bureaucracy,
stifling Nitish business. We can be | 0:07:19 | 0:07:24 | |
set free from that. That was not the
tone today, the tone today was more | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
about reassurance, saying that we
are not going to undercut those high | 0:07:28 | 0:07:33 | |
standards. Higher standards is what
we want and what we will try to | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
achieve. Speaking the Austrian
businesspeople afterwards, they | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
certainly felt the tone from British
ministers has changed in the last | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
year. They think it is about the
reality is starting to bite and that | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
in the end, when it comes to
manufacturing goods, the UK realises | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
to keep that frictionless trade we
want so much we have to keep some | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
kind of alignment. How we do that
has not been sorted out, and that | 0:07:56 | 0:08:01 | |
Cabinet ministers meeting at the
country residence Chequers in the | 0:08:01 | 0:08:06 | |
next couple of days, Theresa May may
have to look them in the room | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
overnight we have had to get a deal.
Sounds great! If there has been a | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
change in tone when it comes to this
idea of regulatory and alignment and | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
not being set free in terms of
regulation, they're not those who | 0:08:18 | 0:08:24 | |
voted Leave and key members of the
Cabinet who are not going to be very | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
disappointed?
Yes, this is the key thing, can that | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
pragmatic approach which something
David Davis has always had, will | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
that persuade some of the others?
Irish Thomson, for example, who make | 0:08:37 | 0:08:42 | |
that first speech on this road to
Brexit Dasher Horace Johnson. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:47 | |
Various ministers laying out their
plans. He did acknowledge there may | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
have to be some kind of alignment.
But I don't think we know how they | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
are going to do that and maybe more
crucially, what the European Union | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
will say about it. But today from
David Davis, it was, you can trust | 0:09:00 | 0:09:05 | |
us, we have been your partner for
many years, you can trust us, we can | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
make this work. Whether that trust
is that not is different matter. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
Thank you. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
Well, to discuss this,
we're joined by the Conservative MP | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
and long-time Brexit supporter
Iain Duncan Smith, | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
and Labour's Chuka Umunna
who supports the campaign group | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
Open Britain, which wants the UK
to remain in the Single Market | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
and Customs Union. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
Welcome. Iain Duncan Smith, do you
detect a change in tone? This talk | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
about Britain being set free from
burdensome regulation out the | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
window? Not really, no. What he is
saying it for what the government | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
has said for a long time that as we
leave, we are binding in everything | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
into UK law, that was the bill on
which it went. In perpetuity? No, | 0:09:42 | 0:09:51 | |
you review it and decide the keys.
There are a lot of areas we will | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
want to review. When it comes to
things like workers' rights, we | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
already have the most flexible
workforce in Europe. There is a | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
reason why we would have to dump
regulations on that because it is | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
more flexible than Germany. That is
not an issue. But there are other | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
areas you look at and we will try
and change some of those | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
regulations. When we were in
government with the Liberal | 0:10:16 | 0:10:18 | |
Democrats, we used to have a very
simple rule that for every | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
regulation you wanted to bring in,
you had to find three to get rid of. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
So which ones? Let me give you a
list I made before I came. Just a | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
couple to start. The clinical trials
directive is dumped, non-commercial | 0:10:30 | 0:10:37 | |
trials in the UK, it has been
appalling. We with the leader in | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
commercial trials. We will destroy a
lot of ordinary stock brokers with a | 0:10:40 | 0:10:47 | |
massive new amount of regulation.
And the other one is solvency two. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:52 | |
That damages the UK because the UK
has this equity market where people | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
get equity release as they get
older. That puts nearly 1%, 2% cost | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
on that and we want to look at that.
The labelling is huge, bigger than | 0:11:01 | 0:11:07 | |
the packages. You have given some
examples. I am simply saying there | 0:11:07 | 0:11:12 | |
are a lot of areas we will look at.
He was not saying we will not look | 0:11:12 | 0:11:16 | |
to change. He was saying, we will
always look to discuss that with our | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
European partners in a free trade
arrangement. Explain to them why we | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
want to change things where it is
necessary, that is all. What is your | 0:11:24 | 0:11:31 | |
evidence, Chuka Umunna? Any evidence
that the Government is planning | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
anything like a bonfire of the
regulations after Brexit? Well, you | 0:11:33 | 0:11:38 | |
just have to look at the comments of
leading members of the Cabinet. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Michael
Gove have talked about further | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
liberalising the labour market. Part
of the problem David Davis and many | 0:11:46 | 0:11:51 | |
on it that side of the argument is
their record. Iain Duncan Smith's | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
maiden speech in May 1992 celebrated
the fact we were coming out of the | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
European social chapter. He gave a
speech in the same Parliament in | 0:12:01 | 0:12:05 | |
1996, in July. Don't get distracted!
Let's listen. In July 1996, Iain was | 0:12:05 | 0:12:15 | |
celebrating the need for a more
laissez faire approach to employment | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
regulations. When you look at this
guy, this man voted for unfair | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
dismissal to be more difficult to
claim, this guy voted for | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
compensation for umpire -- unfair
dismissal to be reduced and | 0:12:27 | 0:12:31 | |
employment tribunal these which were
ruled to be unlawful by the Supreme | 0:12:31 | 0:12:36 | |
Court to be introduced. And now they
want you to give them the benefit of | 0:12:36 | 0:12:39 | |
the doubt and have you believe... So
you don't stand by that? No, I do | 0:12:39 | 0:12:46 | |
stand by what I said. You do want to
strip away working regulations | 0:12:46 | 0:12:53 | |
question no, stop, don't make this
so simplistic that people don't get | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
it. The point is that the problem is
when you make regulations for the | 0:12:56 | 0:13:01 | |
entire European Union, areas of the
European Union have very different | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
traditions and also different
marketplaces. I gave two examples in | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
the financial services sector
handgun! Where they damage us. The | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
difference in leaving, the UK will
look to make regulations to protect | 0:13:14 | 0:13:19 | |
workers that are relevant to UK
working practice and not relevant to | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
Greek or Italian practice. That is a
big difference. By the way, we have | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
a very high level of worker
protection in the UK. Thanks to the | 0:13:27 | 0:13:33 | |
last Labour government. You have
stripped it away. Tribunal fees? I | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
can name a lot of things the Labour
government did I thought were | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
terrible. We do it for the UK. What
specific rights to the Conservatives | 0:13:41 | 0:13:48 | |
go into the 2017 election promising
to scrap? They did not go in | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
promising to scrap specific rights
in 2010, but they did so, and this | 0:13:52 | 0:13:58 | |
is the problem. In many respects,
you say, what is the evidence? What | 0:13:58 | 0:14:03 | |
is the evidence? Let him respond. B
Croft review which was done during | 0:14:03 | 0:14:12 | |
the 2010 election made a number of
recommendations, commissioned by | 0:14:12 | 0:14:18 | |
David Cameron, it made a load of
recommendations and was dumped | 0:14:18 | 0:14:22 | |
partly, and half of it was
incremented. The other half was not | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
implemented because employment, EU
employment law protected British | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
workers and stopped them stripping
it. The review came in and we all | 0:14:30 | 0:14:37 | |
argued we did not have the need for
fermenting any of that stuff. Why | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
was commissioned in the first place?
Because he did put forward and | 0:14:41 | 0:14:46 | |
propose quite radical regulation. It
was commissioned because he wanted | 0:14:46 | 0:14:50 | |
to look at whether it was feasible
to make our labour market more | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
feasible. The organ and I made and
continue to make, and I was in | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
Germany not so long ago, and they
say we admire you because you have a | 0:14:58 | 0:15:03 | |
more flexible set of regulations.
Hang on a second. The reality is | 0:15:03 | 0:15:08 | |
that we already have a much greater
and more flexible workforce. And | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
this is what happens when you have a
really flexible workforce. You end | 0:15:11 | 0:15:15 | |
up with low and employment, more
people back in work than anywhere | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
else in Europe. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:21 | |
You said we should use Brexit to
slash red tape and regulation, | 0:15:21 | 0:15:28 | |
Leslie burden on business and
citizens but we have heard from | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
Chuka Umunna that those concerned
worker protections and writes in a | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
broad sense. I have given you a
list. THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER M | 0:15:36 | 0:15:43 | |
and my question. Here is the point,
I have given you a set of examples I | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
don't think anyone wanted but I have
given them to you, but none of them | 0:15:48 | 0:15:52 | |
are about workers' rights. They are
all about the marketplace being | 0:15:52 | 0:15:57 | |
damaged by overregulation. A lot of
that has been going on and the | 0:15:57 | 0:15:59 | |
problem with Chuka and his side of
the argument is they always want to | 0:15:59 | 0:16:04 | |
go on to take it that they are going
to damage you and virtue, no elected | 0:16:04 | 0:16:10 | |
British government would
deliberately come in and try to | 0:16:10 | 0:16:12 | |
damage people's lives. We want
businesses to generate income which | 0:16:12 | 0:16:17 | |
provides work and jobs for people.
That may mean deregulation. Many of | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
my constituents have suffered... Who
won election in 2015? If so many | 0:16:22 | 0:16:30 | |
people were exercised about the
rights being stripped away why did | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
they not elect a Labour government
to protect those rights? If British | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
government changes the rules and
regulations in the future post | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
Brexit the British people can decide
to kick them out. That is true and | 0:16:40 | 0:16:45 | |
you admitted one thing, Labour may
not have won but Theresa May lost | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
the majority. I was talking about
2015. You said rights had been | 0:16:49 | 0:16:55 | |
stripped away in 2010 but anyway...
The broader point... The important | 0:16:55 | 0:17:04 | |
question is you either diverged
because you want to reduce | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
protections, employment, the or a
new diverged to increase protection, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:17 | |
name an area where you want to
improve things? I have absolutely no | 0:17:17 | 0:17:22 | |
plans and the government has no
plans to lessen workers' rights. But | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
here is one thing... Whilst you were
in government it was my government, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:30 | |
and it was my idea that has pushed
the minimum wage up to £9 per hour, | 0:17:30 | 0:17:36 | |
Labour never did that, they never
got above £6 per hour. The reality | 0:17:36 | 0:17:40 | |
is it is that which does more to
protect workers in work. I am sorry, | 0:17:40 | 0:17:46 | |
this lovely chest beating idea the
Labour Party has that only they | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
protect people who go to work, the
least protected person is the person | 0:17:50 | 0:17:54 | |
out of work and you had terrible
levels of unemployment. We have high | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
ones. Let Chuka Umunna answer. I
will not go back in history 3 | 0:17:58 | 0:18:04 | |
million unemployed under Margaret to
Thatcher but you look again and you | 0:18:04 | 0:18:09 | |
will see the arguing against the
minimum wage. I am pleased has been | 0:18:09 | 0:18:16 | |
an about turn, do not let people
believe you are a champion of the | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
National minimum wage, you did not
want it raised in the first place. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER Do not
talk over each other, Iain Duncan | 0:18:24 | 0:18:31 | |
Smith, Boris Johnson said that the
weight of employment regulation is | 0:18:31 | 0:18:36 | |
no backbreaking, the collective
redundancies directive, the working | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
Time directive, and a thousand more,
do you agree these are the things | 0:18:39 | 0:18:44 | |
which have been backbreaking for the
workforce? It's important to look at | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
all regulations which came in from
the European Union and decide if | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
they work well in the UK. I give you
a list... The point I want to make | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
is there are a whole list of things
which we think do not fit the UK's | 0:18:56 | 0:19:02 | |
way of working. We want to preserve
the good bits and make sure the | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
other bits are either changed
unmodified... | 0:19:05 | 0:19:13 | |
unmodified... "Changed". What will
the country have to offer post | 0:19:13 | 0:19:18 | |
Brexit unless it is a low tax
economy? What we will not have is a | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
massive level of cost of money we
have 2 cents to the European Union. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
We will not have to impose many
damaging regulations which despite | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
Britain's businesses... Deregulation
is not always just about people's | 0:19:31 | 0:19:38 | |
workers' rights. It's about rules
and regulations on reporting in | 0:19:38 | 0:19:43 | |
business which cost massive amounts
of money which make business less | 0:19:43 | 0:19:48 | |
effective and less competitive.
Removing those will help improve | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
things. What do you think listening
to that? I was struck by the remark | 0:19:50 | 0:19:57 | |
that you can diverged by increasing
regulation as well as decreasing | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
regulation and my sense is that post
Brexit what will happen is over time | 0:20:00 | 0:20:06 | |
there will be increasing divergences
and probably some of it half the | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
country will welcome and the other
half will not and vice versa. But I | 0:20:09 | 0:20:15 | |
think what we have to except and
that is clearly what the government | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
is accepting is that we live in
increasingly regulated Globe and it | 0:20:19 | 0:20:24 | |
does impose costs but it's the
reality and you cannot trade unless | 0:20:24 | 0:20:28 | |
your goods and services are
recognised as acceptable by the | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
country you are exporting to. We
will regulate and regulate and | 0:20:32 | 0:20:37 | |
regulate well beyond my death and
that will be true whether or not we | 0:20:37 | 0:20:42 | |
crash out or get a good deal. Thank
you both very much. You will have to | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
crash out of the studio for now. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
The Deputy Leader of
the Labour Party, Tom Watson, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:53 | |
has this morning challenged
continuing claims by a number | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
of newspapers about contact
Jeremy Corbyn is alleged to have had | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
with a Czechoslovakian
diplomat and agent in | 0:20:58 | 0:20:59 | |
London during the 1980s. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:03 | |
The story, first reported
by the Sun last week, | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
is based on claims that a Czech
intelligence officer met and tried | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
to recruit Mr Corbyn
during the Cold War. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
This morning's Daily Mail
is still carrying the story | 0:21:11 | 0:21:13 | |
on its front page. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:15 | |
It says, 'Time to be
open, Comrade Corbyn'. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
While the Daily Telegraph
says 'Corbyn is urged | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
to reveal his Stasi file'. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
The Labour leader's office has said
from the start that 'the claim that | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
Jeremy Corbyn was an agent,
asset, or informer for any | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
intelligence agency is entirely
false and a ridiculous smear'. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:37 | |
And this morning, Tom Watson has
used an article for the Independent | 0:21:37 | 0:21:40 | |
website to accuse "right-wing"
newspapers of spreading | 0:21:40 | 0:21:42 | |
propaganda about Mr Corbyn. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
Newspaper proprietors
in this country abuse | 0:21:45 | 0:21:46 | |
their power," he writes. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
"It's a unique kind of self-harm
for a newspaper to print a story | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
they know is poorly-sourced,
decide to run it regardless | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
because it suits their political
agenda, and pass it off as news." | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
Well, the Prime Minister was asked
about this story yesterday. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
Here's what she had to say. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
Well, first of all, I think it's
for individual Members of Parliament | 0:22:03 | 0:22:06 | |
to be accountable for their actions
in the past. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
But also, I think that where there
are allegations of this sort, | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
that Members of Parliament should be
prepared to be open and transparent. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
So that's what Mrs May had to say,
but what does Mr Corbyn have | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
to come clean about? | 0:22:21 | 0:22:22 | |
Yesterday, the BBC spoke
to the Director of the Czech | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
Security Services Archive. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:26 | |
Here's what she had to say. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:32 | |
TRANSLATION: Mr Corbyn was not
a secret collaborator working | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
for the Czechoslovakian intelligence
service. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:42 | |
The files we have on him are kept
in a folder that starts | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
with the identification number one. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
Secret collaborators were allocated
numbers that started | 0:22:49 | 0:22:50 | |
with the number four. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:53 | |
If he had been successfully
recruited as an informer, | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
then his person-of-interest file
would have been closed and a new one | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
would have been opened,
and that would have started | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
with a four. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:06 | |
That was the response
from the Director of the Czech | 0:23:06 | 0:23:08 | |
Security Services Archive yesterday. | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
And one of the Conservative Party's
deputy chairmen, the MP Ben Bradley, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
last night deleted a tweet
which claimed Mr Corbyn "sold | 0:23:16 | 0:23:17 | |
British secrets to Communist spies",
following the threat of legal action | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
from the Labour leader's office. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:24 | |
So are these claims,
as Tom Watson says, "propaganda, | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
not journalism' and 'not worth
the paper they are written on'? | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
Well, Trevor Kavanagh
is from the Sun, which first | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
carried the story. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:33 | |
And Alex Nunns has written
a biography of Jeremy Corbyn and is | 0:23:33 | 0:23:36 | |
a supporter of the Labour leader. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
Welcome to both of you. Trevor
Kavanagh, the files show he was a | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
person of interest but not a secret
collaborator or informer, this is a | 0:23:44 | 0:23:50 | |
witchhunt. This is a typical shoot
the messenger tactic. It is richly | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
sourced in the sense we have spoken
to and have documentary evidence | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
that Jeremy Corbyn was seen at least
as an asset and had a codename and | 0:23:58 | 0:24:04 | |
that is documentary evidence. The
idea that it's not sourced is | 0:24:04 | 0:24:09 | |
absurd. There is more to this than
just the fact he was seen at least | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
by the Czechoslovakian regime as an
asset and that includes him taking a | 0:24:14 | 0:24:19 | |
tour of East Germany on a motorbike
back in the 70s. That is very | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
different, being seen as a person of
interest is nowhere near the same as | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
being an informant or a spy and
therefore that has led to claims | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
you're running a smear campaign. We
have never said Jeremy Corbyn is a | 0:24:31 | 0:24:37 | |
spy, that he took money, we are
reporting the view that he met him | 0:24:37 | 0:24:47 | |
at least four times, more than the
one-time Jeremy Corbyn admitted to. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
Is he credible or eight fantasist?
Your mac he has evidence. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:56 | |
There is documentary evidence that
Jeremy Corbyn was seen as an acid | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
and had a codename on the files.
Alex Nunns, at best you could say | 0:25:04 | 0:25:10 | |
Jeremy Corbyn was naive, he said he
met a Czechoslovakian diplomat and | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
other dealings he had in the 1980s,
is it in the public interest for | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
newspapers to scrutinise his
background? Of course but here we | 0:25:19 | 0:25:24 | |
have a credible source on one side
and the person on the other side, | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
the former spy who says he organised
live aid. The other day he said he | 0:25:29 | 0:25:34 | |
organised that. This guy has no
credibility. He also says John | 0:25:34 | 0:25:39 | |
McDonnell was passing secrets to
Russia when John McDonnell was | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
working her Camden Borough Council.
His credibility is shredded and he | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
is a fantasist. For newspapers to
report it, OK it is legitimate, but | 0:25:46 | 0:25:53 | |
for the continuous front-page Farage
we've seen over the last half a week | 0:25:53 | 0:25:58 | |
there is no justification. Trevor
Kavanagh, what information would a | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
Labour backbencher on the periphery
of a party be able to give the | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
Czechoslovakian Secret Service? It
is impossible to know. He didn't | 0:26:07 | 0:26:12 | |
have any. Let me finish. Spies don't
just met somebody haul in a net, | 0:26:12 | 0:26:20 | |
they add information together piece
by piece until it forms a line. You | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
don't know what you're giving the
people you're talking to, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
inadvertently perhaps, but you don't
know what you are providing to them | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
and it's best not to get involved.
Several formal meetings which were | 0:26:29 | 0:26:38 | |
annotated at the time by a man who
was clearly a spy for the | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
Czechoslovakian regime and a member
of Parliament. Do you think Jeremy | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
Corbyn should be more open about his
past meetings and dealings in the | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
way Theresa May has asked him to be
because at the best it doesn't look | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
good if there have been meetings
with people from the opposite side | 0:26:52 | 0:26:54 | |
during the Cold War? I'm not sure
that is true. We are talking about | 0:26:54 | 0:27:03 | |
1986, the time when the Soviet Union
and the Eastern Bloc were opening up | 0:27:03 | 0:27:06 | |
and trying to make connections. We
are talking about a period when | 0:27:06 | 0:27:11 | |
three years earlier in 1983 the
world had been on the brink of | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
nuclear war with mistakes on both
sides. Surely having all those kind | 0:27:14 | 0:27:19 | |
of conversations across borders is
important? We also don't know why | 0:27:19 | 0:27:24 | |
Jeremy Corbyn met this diplomat, but
at the time I understand he was in | 0:27:24 | 0:27:29 | |
touch with Czechoslovakian
dissidents, he might have been | 0:27:29 | 0:27:32 | |
meeting them to lobby on their
behalf. Tom Watson has strongly | 0:27:32 | 0:27:37 | |
criticised your newspaper and others
over this, saying newspaper | 0:27:37 | 0:27:42 | |
proprietors abused their power. You
have run a story with evidence which | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
is being conflicted here. None of it
is... None of the evidence we have | 0:27:46 | 0:27:52 | |
published has been contradicted. Do
you contradict the evidence? The | 0:27:52 | 0:27:58 | |
lady we heard from earlier
contradicts the spy. So we have a | 0:27:58 | 0:28:06 | |
conviction in sources. Maybe. You
say maybe, so do you accept it and | 0:28:06 | 0:28:14 | |
abuse of power to put this story on
the front page, make it sent on news | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
day after day after day? Of course
not and I'm sure you don't either. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:23 | |
What I think is irrelevant. Of
course it is. What is much more | 0:28:23 | 0:28:30 | |
important than this which was a
fishing expedition is much less | 0:28:30 | 0:28:36 | |
important, please do not shut me
down... Jeremy Corbyn and I'm a | 0:28:36 | 0:28:44 | |
motorcycle ride around East Germany
in the 70s. I have travelled widely | 0:28:44 | 0:28:49 | |
in Communist China and Soviet Russia
since the 70s, you did not go into | 0:28:49 | 0:28:53 | |
those countries without good reason
on behalf of the people who are | 0:28:53 | 0:28:59 | |
posting new and they watched you and
monitored you every step of the way | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
from the moment you got up until you
went to bed. What do you say? He | 0:29:02 | 0:29:08 | |
went on holiday with Diane Abbott.
We are just combining desperate | 0:29:08 | 0:29:13 | |
random things from his past and
trying to put them into this | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
ridiculous story that Jeremy Corbyn
was a paid informant which is what | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
has been reported without any
evidence of that. Is this a | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
reasonable line of scrutiny? I think
it's reasonable for newspapers to | 0:29:24 | 0:29:29 | |
print a great deal of material, on
that I think it's important that we | 0:29:29 | 0:29:37 | |
have a free press and they will
often print stories which are then | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
shown to be inaccurate in some way
are exaggerated and the result of | 0:29:39 | 0:29:44 | |
that is people who follow them end
up with the correct conclusion. So I | 0:29:44 | 0:29:49 | |
am strongly against the idea that
you should not publish material | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
within the bounds of the law. In
this particular case I don't have a | 0:29:53 | 0:29:58 | |
clue but I suspect a week from now
anyone who is following it in detail | 0:29:58 | 0:30:02 | |
will be in a position to form some
more informed view of what is going | 0:30:02 | 0:30:08 | |
on so I think the basic principle
that the press should publish is | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
absolutely of central importance. To
make a different point, this strange | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
way, whether or not this strengthens
the position of Jeremy Corbyn or has | 0:30:17 | 0:30:21 | |
the opposite effect, I do feel a
slight sense of, I don't know about | 0:30:21 | 0:30:28 | |
relief but slight surprise that the
issues to do with the Cold War are | 0:30:28 | 0:30:34 | |
suddenly on the front pages again.
One of the things which strikes me | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
as a university teacher is the
perhaps inevitable but terrifying | 0:30:37 | 0:30:42 | |
extent to which people have
forgotten any history that they only | 0:30:42 | 0:30:46 | |
learned as history and I do think
that the period of the Cold War was | 0:30:46 | 0:30:53 | |
relevant, is relevant, to where we
are today. That it hasn't gone away | 0:30:53 | 0:30:57 | |
so this is completely separate from
whether or not this story turns out | 0:30:57 | 0:31:01 | |
to be extremely well founded or
extremely ill founded. I think it's | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
a good idea that the country is
being reminded of recent history. It | 0:31:04 | 0:31:09 | |
is and thank you for coming in. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
The collapse of several rape trials
over problems relating to disclosure | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
of evidence at the end of last year
led to calls to look again | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
at the way those accused of sexual
offences are treated by the courts. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
One student - who spent two years
on bail before the rape case | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
against him collapsed -
called for those in his position | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
to be granted anonymity. | 0:31:28 | 0:31:30 | |
So should the law be changed, again? | 0:31:30 | 0:31:33 | |
Anonymity in rape cases was given
to both complainants | 0:31:33 | 0:31:37 | |
and defendants for the first time
by the Sexual Offences Act of 1976. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:42 | |
But just 12 years later, in 1988,
the Act's provisions on defendant | 0:31:42 | 0:31:45 | |
anonymity were repealed
by Margaret Thatcher's government. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:53 | |
During the passage of the 2003
Sexual Offences Act, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
the Home Affairs Committee called
for limited anonymity to be restored | 0:31:57 | 0:32:00 | |
to cover suspects who had not yet
been charged with a sexual offence. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
In May 2010, the coalition
government published plans | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
to "extend anonymity in rape cases
to defendants", but it dropped | 0:32:07 | 0:32:09 | |
the idea later that year -
on the grounds that there wasn't | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
enough evidence to
support the policy. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
In 2015, the Home Affairs Select
Committee again recommended | 0:32:15 | 0:32:17 | |
anonymity for those suspected
of a sex offence, unless and | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
until they're charged. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
Joining me now is the campaigner
and spokesperson for | 0:32:24 | 0:32:26 | |
Women Against Rape, Lisa Longstaff. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:33 | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. Why
do you think we keep coming back to | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
this issue, is it a sign the current
law is not working? Now I think that | 0:32:37 | 0:32:41 | |
there are scandalous cases which are
largely, often, the result of | 0:32:41 | 0:32:48 | |
inadequate and negligent
investigations. Which get in the | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
public eye. And because a
hullabaloo. And it is often driven | 0:32:52 | 0:33:01 | |
by people accused who are
celebrities or in positions of | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
power. But not always, is it
justifiable if there are cases which | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
are rightly exposed for the evidence
not being properly collected? Yes, | 0:33:08 | 0:33:13 | |
but there are also quite a lot of
cases where a man ends up being | 0:33:13 | 0:33:19 | |
convicted and turns out to have been
a very prolific and serial offender. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:23 | |
And just like every other person who
is accused, they say, no, I did not | 0:33:23 | 0:33:29 | |
do it when first approached. Is that
the reason you think it is important | 0:33:29 | 0:33:34 | |
that complainants in rape cases get
grunted bowl anonymity? They are | 0:33:34 | 0:33:39 | |
granted full anonymity because they
are vilified in the press. Exposed | 0:33:39 | 0:33:46 | |
and basically it puts people off
reporting. That is why victims were | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
granted anonymity in 1976, at the
same time as people accused. But | 0:33:50 | 0:33:56 | |
granting it the people accused of
rape now would separate it from | 0:33:56 | 0:34:00 | |
every other kind of crime. That is
one of the arguments that goes | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
against it. Why should rapists, all
men accused of rape be given | 0:34:03 | 0:34:08 | |
different standards? Complainants
another cases do not have anonymity | 0:34:08 | 0:34:14 | |
and rape is different. It has become
even more so with the advent of | 0:34:14 | 0:34:19 | |
social media. I am strongly in
favour of anonymity for people who | 0:34:19 | 0:34:23 | |
are suspected, at least until they
are charged. The reality is that if | 0:34:23 | 0:34:28 | |
you are accused of rape, the mud
sticks forever. It is absolutely | 0:34:28 | 0:34:34 | |
horrendous the stories you get from
people. I argued once and a TV | 0:34:34 | 0:34:39 | |
programme in favour of anonymity for
defendants. I got these horrendous | 0:34:39 | 0:34:44 | |
stories not from celebrities, we
will come to that in a moment, but | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
from perfectly ordinary people who
because they had been accused of | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
rape, there were exposed on social
media, on Google forever. Their name | 0:34:53 | 0:34:58 | |
is out in the public domain, as in
the cases of these people we have | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
described. If it is a special crime
and it is a special crime which is | 0:35:02 | 0:35:06 | |
why we have anonymity for
complainants, it is a special crime | 0:35:06 | 0:35:10 | |
for people who have not yet been
proven guilty and may not have even | 0:35:10 | 0:35:12 | |
been charged. Do you accept that,
that you say there is a danger of | 0:35:12 | 0:35:18 | |
the complainant being vilified and
also a danger and quite often it | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
happens for defendants to be equally
vilified and they may be wrongly | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
accused?
I think that what this relies on | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
partly is the myth that a lot of
women wrongly accused man of rape | 0:35:29 | 0:35:34 | |
and they are lying, and that is very
distorted. Blown out of all | 0:35:34 | 0:35:38 | |
proportion compared to the number of
real wrong accusations. Secondly, I | 0:35:38 | 0:35:44 | |
think that what is really important
about why we need people to be named | 0:35:44 | 0:35:50 | |
is that if it were imposed that they
would get anonymity until charged, a | 0:35:50 | 0:35:58 | |
lot of people would not come
forward. A lot of the victims, | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
because it is such a shame making
crime and because people are so | 0:36:02 | 0:36:08 | |
damaged, and often it is the most
abominable people who are attacked | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
in this way, including children, but
not only, it is a big deterrent | 0:36:12 | 0:36:17 | |
coming for the -- it is the most
vulnerable people. A lot of people | 0:36:17 | 0:36:22 | |
do not come forward about the most
prolific serial attackers. We don't | 0:36:22 | 0:36:28 | |
know how much of that's true, we
have no evidence and rightly not | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
because everybody is anonymous on
the complainant side. I come back to | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
watch a fundamental principle of
British justice, it you are innocent | 0:36:36 | 0:36:41 | |
until proven guilty and you do not
get your case to court unless is the | 0:36:41 | 0:36:46 | |
evidence. But you are still innocent
until proven guilty, this is about | 0:36:46 | 0:36:51 | |
being named. In reality, you are not
commit you are vilified. People say, | 0:36:51 | 0:36:56 | |
no smoke without fire, your life is
put on hold, you are sacked from | 0:36:56 | 0:37:00 | |
your job and thrown out from your
university, your name is all over | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
the press. And then you save that of
few cases, we don't know how many | 0:37:03 | 0:37:08 | |
cases there are! We do! Know, we do
not know how many cases that are | 0:37:08 | 0:37:14 | |
where people are convicted wrongly.
That is why we have to be so | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
careful. Do you accept that people's
reputations ruined even if they | 0:37:17 | 0:37:23 | |
found innocent and even if it is
small number of cases? That for the | 0:37:23 | 0:37:29 | |
people who are suspected of rape,
that it does stick forever? What I | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
don't accept is that this is a
uniquely stigmatising crime. If you | 0:37:33 | 0:37:38 | |
are accused of murder or terrorism,
you do not get anonymity. So why not | 0:37:38 | 0:37:45 | |
get anonymity for all crimes? You
don't get anonymity as a complainant | 0:37:45 | 0:37:49 | |
in terrorism cases on Mr is a
special case and the prosecution and | 0:37:49 | 0:37:53 | |
police can give it to you. I come
back to the fundamental principle of | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
the British legal system and the
freedom of our country, you don't | 0:37:56 | 0:38:01 | |
take a case to court unless you can
make that case stick. If you don't | 0:38:01 | 0:38:05 | |
have a case for which you have
adequate care evidence, you don't | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
take it court. You seem to be
saying, let's get lots of to come | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
forward and even if the first case
has not got adequate evidence, it | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
seems all right. Because there will
be so many people. We don't do that | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
with the cases, you don't come into
court to be tried of all sorts. No, | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
that is not what I am saying. There
have been a lot of high-profile | 0:38:26 | 0:38:30 | |
cases in the most recent years where
people have been getting away with | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
raping lots of people. You have to
acknowledge that, that is a fact. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
Barry Bennell was just convicted,
Jimmy Sample, dozens in between, not | 0:38:39 | 0:38:44 | |
only celebrities, but others who do
not get in the public eye because | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
they are not in the public eye --
Jimmy Sample. If they had not been | 0:38:47 | 0:38:52 | |
named early on, many victims would
not have come forward and they would | 0:38:52 | 0:38:57 | |
not have had enough evidence and it
would not have gone to court. The | 0:38:57 | 0:39:02 | |
reality is only 6% of recorded rapes
and is in conflict fishing. Not | 0:39:02 | 0:39:07 | |
because 94% of women lying. -- in
conviction. Women still get grills, | 0:39:07 | 0:39:15 | |
cases are not all handled properly.
Any woman who makes a complaint is | 0:39:15 | 0:39:20 | |
telling the 100% truth, you make
that assumption. Rape is a very | 0:39:20 | 0:39:28 | |
difficult crime because in many
cases, two people have very | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
different memories of that. That is
why it has always been a very | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
difficult crime, the most difficult
crime and time and again, it has | 0:39:35 | 0:39:38 | |
been felt it has to be treated
differently. People have different | 0:39:38 | 0:39:42 | |
memories and people have false
memories. People construct memories | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
and people also lie to themselves.
No. I don't agree, sorry. Of course | 0:39:45 | 0:39:54 | |
some rapists have been let off. To
make it is much more important a | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
number of innocent people do not go
to jail and we do not imprison the | 0:39:59 | 0:40:04 | |
innocent, and we risk some guilty
people walking away. Nobody wants | 0:40:04 | 0:40:09 | |
the innocent putting imprison,
including us, but it is very | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
important if people are having their
lives ruined by violence, they have | 0:40:12 | 0:40:19 | |
the right to see justice and have
their attacker prosecuted. It is a | 0:40:19 | 0:40:24 | |
class issue, I think. On that, thank
you very much. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:29 | |
This year marks the 60th
anniversary of the Campaign | 0:40:29 | 0:40:31 | |
for Nuclear Disarmament -
and that means it's also | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
the anniversary of one
of the world's most recognised | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
political symbols,
adopted by the CND ahead | 0:40:36 | 0:40:37 | |
of an anti-nuclear weapons march
to Aldermaston in 1958. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
Ellie Price has been taking a look. | 0:40:40 | 0:40:48 | |
For millions around the world,
it's simply the peace sign. | 0:40:50 | 0:40:52 | |
But its origins are home-grown. | 0:40:52 | 0:41:00 | |
Designed by a British artist called
Gerald Holtom ahead of a march | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
he himself was going on. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:05 | |
And the design is surprisingly
straightforward. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:13 | |
It's the maritime signal, for N. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:21 | |
And D. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:22 | |
Nuclear. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:23 | |
Disarmament. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:24 | |
Gerald Holtom first showed this
sketch of the image to a few members | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
of the organising committee of that
protest march to Aldermaston | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
in February 1958. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:31 | |
Michael Randle was one
of four people in the room. | 0:41:31 | 0:41:33 | |
Well, I was a little bit unsure. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:35 | |
I didn't immediately say, oh, yeah,
that's great, we must do that. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:41 | |
But some of these other
pictures helped to enthuse, | 0:41:41 | 0:41:43 | |
I think, all of us. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:44 | |
He showed a big streamer
banner which would stretch | 0:41:44 | 0:41:47 | |
right across the road,
with the symbol on it, | 0:41:47 | 0:41:49 | |
it would be spectacular. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:50 | |
So he had thought about
what the march would look | 0:41:50 | 0:41:52 | |
like with this symbol on. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:53 | |
And really, he sold it
to us on that basis. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
The march took place over Easter,
just a few weeks later. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
So you were on this march? | 0:41:59 | 0:42:00 | |
Yes. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:05 | |
Gerald Holtom's daughter,
Anna, was 15 at the time. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
She'd helped make some
of the placards - | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
albeit begrudgingly. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:10 | |
I think I was really a bit annoyed
with their plans to go | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
to Aldermaston because I probably
had some boyfriend | 0:42:13 | 0:42:15 | |
that I wanted to see. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:21 | |
I wasn't too sure. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
It was a very cold day, I believe. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:31 | |
Going to Aldermaston,
on a long walk, with not | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
the right clothes, was not
something I looked forward to. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
He loved the idea of the lollipop
placard because they are easy | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
to hold, and he was
thrilled with that circle. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
And we were all in the workshop
working away, printing them | 0:42:42 | 0:42:44 | |
and sticking them on. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:48 | |
Sometimes getting splinters
in our hands because the wood | 0:42:48 | 0:42:50 | |
was not very nice wood. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:54 | |
The march was a success. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:59 | |
So much so that it was
repeated for several years. | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
And there at the beginning
was an American peace and civil | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
rights campaigner called
Bayard Rustin, who was so impressed | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
with the protest, and the symbol,
that he took it to the US and helped | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
organise the 1963
March on Washington. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
From then, the CND symbol
would become known more | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
broadly as the peace sign. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:17 | |
So it was just as well that
Gerald Holtom hadn't copyrighted it. | 0:43:17 | 0:43:24 | |
I think that's what's
made it successful. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:25 | |
Because, you know, people
could reproduce it in whatever form | 0:43:25 | 0:43:31 | |
format seemed right to them,
in whatever context and to take | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
on whatever meaning
they wanted it to take on. | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
It's as modern today
as it was in the 1960s and '50s. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:40 | |
And six decades on, the CND don't
mind sharing their logo either. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
I think having this symbol,
which embraces all these aspects | 0:43:43 | 0:43:48 | |
of the peace movement, has great
resonance with young people | 0:43:48 | 0:43:52 | |
as well as across the generations. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:53 | |
I think that's very, very powerful. | 0:43:53 | 0:43:58 | |
I think it's helped the cause
of peace to be as significant | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
as it is in Britain today. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:02 | |
We're joined now by
the designer Stephen Bayley. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
Why is it such a great design? Well,
that our tests of good design and I | 0:44:06 | 0:44:12 | |
think endurance is one of them and
it has lasted 60 years. Another | 0:44:12 | 0:44:16 | |
thing is adaptability and it works
and a T-shirt and surfer you's | 0:44:16 | 0:44:21 | |
camper van, it works on banners. And
it is a logo, a graphic device which | 0:44:21 | 0:44:26 | |
has created a brand and sense of
awareness. It was a great film and I | 0:44:26 | 0:44:31 | |
suspect that is retrospective
rationalisation about the semaphore. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:36 | |
I don't know, no one knows. But I
suspect it. I suspect he was playing | 0:44:36 | 0:44:42 | |
around with a Christian cross and it
went one way. But a great logo | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
often... But it really was an axe,
not some great motivation? Just like | 0:44:46 | 0:44:54 | |
Coca-Cola had to be the signature of
the company's book-keeper, the | 0:44:54 | 0:44:56 | |
famous FedEx logo, the graphic
designer was mucking about with | 0:44:56 | 0:45:02 | |
eight typeface and suddenly a narrow
appeared. He did not intend that. I | 0:45:02 | 0:45:07 | |
think that happened here. But
endurance and adaptability, it was | 0:45:07 | 0:45:13 | |
well after the Charlie had the
atrocity in Paris, it became an | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
Eiffel Tower and that is another
sign of excellence and design, | 0:45:17 | 0:45:20 | |
something that stays the same. | 0:45:20 | 0:45:25 | |
It transcends countries and
movements? Yes, I love the | 0:45:25 | 0:45:30 | |
discipline in trying to design a
little graphic thing, a little | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
visual pun which can last and endure
and carry meaning. I don't think the | 0:45:34 | 0:45:40 | |
designer would have thought it would
be so successful? Yes, the | 0:45:40 | 0:45:46 | |
book-keeper of Coca-Cola did not
think it would become a recognisable | 0:45:46 | 0:45:49 | |
logo when he was just doing a
scribble. And it has gone beyond its | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
original meaning as it is now a
symbol for peace. It was very much | 0:45:53 | 0:45:58 | |
about the CND campaign. The other
thing was even people like me could | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
draw it, anyone could. So the
simplicity of it in terms of its | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
reproduction at various levels on
placards and T-shirts. There is a | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
rule in all communication, simplify
then exaggerate. That is what has | 0:46:11 | 0:46:18 | |
happened here. This simplicity is
very hard won, it's not a silly | 0:46:18 | 0:46:23 | |
doodle, it might have been created
by unpredictable processes but this | 0:46:23 | 0:46:29 | |
guy thought long and hard and worked
and worked and worked on it and that | 0:46:29 | 0:46:34 | |
is why it's the 10,000 hour thing, I
don't know how long he spent on it | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
but it's the end of a very
thoughtful process. Can you think of | 0:46:37 | 0:46:42 | |
any other symbols that have, you
mentioned some of the other logos, I | 0:46:42 | 0:46:46 | |
am trying to think of political
symbols which have been as | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
prominent? And you're done the same
way? What interests me about the CND | 0:46:49 | 0:46:55 | |
logo, and I think it's important to
distinguish between a logo and the | 0:46:55 | 0:46:59 | |
brand, logo is a graphic device and
if it works well it creates more | 0:46:59 | 0:47:04 | |
diffuse brand values. What
fascinates me further is the way | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
brands operate like religions do.
That applies here and two other | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
great brands like Apple. Steve Jobs
appearances in San Francisco is like | 0:47:11 | 0:47:18 | |
the second coming and designed to be
so. All great brands model on | 0:47:18 | 0:47:26 | |
religion, you have a congregation,
you have an icon, literally an icon | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
and a belief system. It has not been
copyrighted. That might have helped. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:37 | |
It is interesting point about
religion because I think there have | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
been times when it might have been
writ misrepresented if it was seen | 0:47:39 | 0:47:46 | |
as a Christian or anti-Christian, do
you think it ever gave a sense of | 0:47:46 | 0:47:51 | |
being anti-religious? It gives a
sense of not being specifically | 0:47:51 | 0:47:55 | |
religious. There is talk about its
origin, there was a sign on a | 0:47:55 | 0:48:02 | |
gravestone somewhere in Brittany a
stone carving which was almost | 0:48:02 | 0:48:07 | |
identical to this and that probably
had some esoteric religious | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
significance so I think what is
clever about trying to deconstruct | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
this is it is nonspecific but it has
the power and suggestiveness of a | 0:48:14 | 0:48:20 | |
religious symbol. And it has endured
this discussion, thank you very much | 0:48:20 | 0:48:25 | |
Stephen Bayley. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:29 | |
As we reported on yesterday's
programme, Theresa May has launched | 0:48:29 | 0:48:31 | |
a review into tuition fees. | 0:48:31 | 0:48:33 | |
It's going to last a year,
and the Prime Minister acknowledged | 0:48:33 | 0:48:35 | |
that students in England face "one
of the most expensive systems | 0:48:35 | 0:48:38 | |
of university tuition in the world". | 0:48:38 | 0:48:39 | |
But she said the review
won't look at scrapping fees, | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
which would push up taxes and mean
limiting the number | 0:48:42 | 0:48:44 | |
of university places. | 0:48:44 | 0:48:45 | |
Let's have a look. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:46 | |
The review will now look
at the whole question of how | 0:48:46 | 0:48:49 | |
students and graduates contribute
to the cost of their studies, | 0:48:49 | 0:48:52 | |
including the level terms
and duration of their contribution. | 0:48:52 | 0:48:56 | |
Our goal is a funding system
which provides value for money | 0:48:56 | 0:48:58 | |
for graduates and taxpayers,
so the principle that students, | 0:48:58 | 0:49:01 | |
as well as taxpayers,
should contribute to the cost | 0:49:01 | 0:49:05 | |
of their studies
is an important one. | 0:49:05 | 0:49:09 | |
I believe - as do most people,
including students - | 0:49:09 | 0:49:13 | |
that those who benefit directly
from higher education | 0:49:13 | 0:49:15 | |
should contribute directly
towards the cost of it. | 0:49:15 | 0:49:18 | |
That's only fair. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:20 | |
And our guest of the day,
Alison Wolf, is one of the people | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
appointed to this review
into post-18 education. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:29 | |
Obviously only in the last 24-48
hours. Exactly! Should scrapping | 0:49:29 | 0:49:34 | |
tuition fees be part of the remit?
Can I say this is not just about | 0:49:34 | 0:49:42 | |
university tuition fees, it is as it
has always meant to be before the | 0:49:42 | 0:49:50 | |
campaign and the Labour position, it
has always been about funding in | 0:49:50 | 0:49:56 | |
general for tertiary students,
people older than 18 which is | 0:49:56 | 0:50:00 | |
different from those in compulsory
education and that is what the view | 0:50:00 | 0:50:02 | |
is about. Some of those people don't
pay fees at all because if you are | 0:50:02 | 0:50:09 | |
over 18 and do certain courses in
which you have an entitlement you do | 0:50:09 | 0:50:15 | |
not pay fees. Yes but it has been
slightly overshadowed, overtaken by | 0:50:15 | 0:50:19 | |
this idea of tuition fees and that's
because the government has placed it | 0:50:19 | 0:50:23 | |
there. The media has placed it
there. It was Theresa May who said | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
we have one of the most expensive
systems in the world... In the part | 0:50:27 | 0:50:32 | |
you chose to play she talked about
what we have is an extraordinarily | 0:50:32 | 0:50:36 | |
unfair bifurcated system where huge
amounts of money going to higher | 0:50:36 | 0:50:43 | |
education and universities and
students are racking up vast numbers | 0:50:43 | 0:50:46 | |
of debts and are technical and
vocational sector which has been | 0:50:46 | 0:50:49 | |
starved of funds where a number of
students who can find courses to go | 0:50:49 | 0:50:54 | |
on has been declining at a
terrifying rate. That is actually | 0:50:54 | 0:51:00 | |
clearly when you look at the terms
of reference the core part of this | 0:51:00 | 0:51:05 | |
review, to bring those bits
together. Is it not slightly strange | 0:51:05 | 0:51:09 | |
to have focused on the idea of
making vocational education the | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
central part, if it is, without
putting more funds behind it? We | 0:51:13 | 0:51:18 | |
have not said they will not put more
funds buying that. Do they need to? | 0:51:18 | 0:51:25 | |
My sense is that any government that
is serious about getting a | 0:51:25 | 0:51:29 | |
functioning post-18 system will over
the next few decades have to shift | 0:51:29 | 0:51:36 | |
it puts its funding more towards
technical and vocational courses | 0:51:36 | 0:51:38 | |
than it does at the moment. I don't
have a clue if they will do it and | 0:51:38 | 0:51:42 | |
it's not about closing down
universities tomorrow which again, | 0:51:42 | 0:51:47 | |
clearly, the review, even if we
recommended that they would not do | 0:51:47 | 0:51:50 | |
it. But I do think it's important to
understand this review is about all | 0:51:50 | 0:51:57 | |
post-18 funding, it's not just about
should there be lower fees... How | 0:51:57 | 0:52:04 | |
much freedom have you been given?
Quite a lot but it's not an | 0:52:04 | 0:52:09 | |
independent review, we and an expert
panel which makes recommendations. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:13 | |
But there is no force behind them,
it is the government to decide if | 0:52:13 | 0:52:18 | |
they take any of our advice. I am
taking a point it's not just about | 0:52:18 | 0:52:22 | |
university and tuition fees but do
you think the option of scrapping | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
tuition fees should have been part
of it? I don't see how it could be | 0:52:26 | 0:52:30 | |
because we cannot begin to afford to
scrap all tuition fees and it was | 0:52:30 | 0:52:39 | |
never likely it would ask us to look
at that possibility because it's | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
been quite clear that actually
nobody in this government really | 0:52:42 | 0:52:47 | |
thinks it is financial feasible. The
Labour Party does but I think if | 0:52:47 | 0:52:55 | |
they had done that it would have
been a terrible distortion because | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
then everyone would have gone on
about that to the extinction of any | 0:52:59 | 0:53:03 | |
other sensible discussion. Good luck
with the review. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:08 | |
Resignations are a fact of political
life, whether they're | 0:53:08 | 0:53:10 | |
of the long-drawn out variety -
in which the minister hangs | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
on by his or her fingernails -
or the sudden departure as part | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
of a plot to bring down a leader. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:17 | |
Well a new book looks at some
of the most sensational resignations | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
over the past century -
we'll speak to the author | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
in a moment, but first
let's have a look at some | 0:53:23 | 0:53:25 | |
of the most famous. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:29 | |
This report does contain flashing
images. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:32 | |
At five, it we now carry a rising
Tory star with a reputation for | 0:53:36 | 0:53:40 | |
straight talking like during the
1988 salmonella scare. Most of the | 0:53:40 | 0:53:47 | |
egg production in this country is
infected with salmonella. Farmers | 0:53:47 | 0:53:51 | |
were outraged and she had to go.
Robin Cook served Tony Blair loyally | 0:53:51 | 0:53:58 | |
but this speech ahead of the
invasion of Iraq was a masterclass | 0:53:58 | 0:54:00 | |
in how to resign on a matter of
principle. I cannot support a war | 0:54:00 | 0:54:05 | |
without international agreement or
domestic support. Geoffrey Howe was | 0:54:05 | 0:54:11 | |
Margaret Thatcher's first Chancellor
but after 11 years he lost his | 0:54:11 | 0:54:15 | |
patience, particularly over Europe
and his weapon of choice was | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
cricket. | 0:54:18 | 0:54:18 | |
It's rather like sending your
opening batsmen to the crease, | 0:54:18 | 0:54:20 | |
only for them to find -
the moment the first | 0:54:20 | 0:54:23 | |
balls are bowled -
that their bats have been broken | 0:54:23 | 0:54:25 | |
before the game by the team captain. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:27 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
Margaret Thatcher was gone within a
month. The ultimate political | 0:54:31 | 0:54:36 | |
scandal of the 19 affair, the
Secretary of State for War having an | 0:54:36 | 0:54:43 | |
affair with the model Christine
Keeler who was to timing him with a | 0:54:43 | 0:54:47 | |
Russian spy. The kind of had to go.
In 1970 the Labour frontbencher John | 0:54:47 | 0:54:54 | |
Stonehouse was so overwhelmed by
personal and money problems he quit, | 0:54:54 | 0:54:57 | |
by leaving his clothes and passport
on a Miami Beach and faking his own | 0:54:57 | 0:55:01 | |
death. Papers speculated he had been
eaten by sharks but he was found in | 0:55:01 | 0:55:08 | |
Australia. He tried to enter front
line politics but ended up in prison | 0:55:08 | 0:55:12 | |
for fraud. I became more and more of
a sham and I did not realise until | 0:55:12 | 0:55:20 | |
the very recent past when it hit me
like a thunderbolt. | 0:55:20 | 0:55:27 | |
And the author of Fighters
and Quitters: Great Parliamentary | 0:55:27 | 0:55:29 | |
Resignations is Theo Barclay,
he joins us now. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:34 | |
This is the book, I thought it might
have been even bigger! Yes, quite a | 0:55:34 | 0:55:39 | |
few to get in so I chose 25 of the
best. How did you choose them, did | 0:55:39 | 0:55:44 | |
you find there was just too much
information? I applied a cut-off at | 0:55:44 | 0:55:50 | |
1938 because one of my favourites is
the Duchess of Atholl who resigned | 0:55:50 | 0:55:56 | |
in 1938 in protest against the
appeasement of Hitler. She was | 0:55:56 | 0:56:00 | |
proved right in the end, she staged
a by-election on that single issue a | 0:56:00 | 0:56:05 | |
bit like David Davis did a few years
ago. She failed but she has gone | 0:56:05 | 0:56:09 | |
down in history as being proved
right in the end. I started with | 0:56:09 | 0:56:12 | |
horror and then the 25 following
that, some everyone will know and | 0:56:12 | 0:56:16 | |
others hopefully not so familiar. So
there might be some we have never | 0:56:16 | 0:56:20 | |
heard of? What was your favourite.
John Stonehouse is probably the best | 0:56:20 | 0:56:27 | |
story because it has so many
elements. He was a paid-up spy for | 0:56:27 | 0:56:32 | |
many years and then he had an fair,
he left his wife had faked his own | 0:56:32 | 0:56:37 | |
death because he was in money
troubles and he was discovered | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
bizarrely a few months later in
Australia because the police thought | 0:56:41 | 0:56:45 | |
he was Lord Lucan who had also gone
missing around that time. On | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
discovering he was not Lord Lucan
they shipped him back to Britain and | 0:56:49 | 0:56:53 | |
he had a trial where he represented
himself and eat it out for months | 0:56:53 | 0:56:57 | |
and months to the extent that the
whole grim justice system had to be | 0:56:57 | 0:57:01 | |
reformed to stop you wasting time in
that way. He has gone down as quick | 0:57:01 | 0:57:06 | |
character. Any memorable ones for
you, not you personally? The one the | 0:57:06 | 0:57:13 | |
film brought back to me was it we
now carry and the eggs, there was a | 0:57:13 | 0:57:17 | |
second story for her later and her
affair with John Major -- was it we | 0:57:17 | 0:57:21 | |
now carry and the eggs. This
wonderful book is that it brings | 0:57:21 | 0:57:26 | |
back all these things about the feel
of politics at the time that | 0:57:26 | 0:57:30 | |
somebody resigned and how different
some of it is when you see those | 0:57:30 | 0:57:33 | |
pictures. There is a difference
between scandal and trying to bring | 0:57:33 | 0:57:40 | |
down a leader or resigning over
policy. Which way does the balance | 0:57:40 | 0:57:43 | |
tip? I have identified three types
and you have covered them, the | 0:57:43 | 0:57:50 | |
principled stand which is when
someone cannot go along with | 0:57:50 | 0:57:53 | |
something the government is doing
and I think Robin Cook is the best | 0:57:53 | 0:57:57 | |
example of that as you saw in the
film. Then you have political | 0:57:57 | 0:58:01 | |
assassination which you saw with
Geoffrey Howe. And more recently I | 0:58:01 | 0:58:06 | |
suppose the resignation of 92 Jeremy
Corbyn's front bench could be in | 0:58:06 | 0:58:09 | |
that category but that did not work.
But the final one which is the most | 0:58:09 | 0:58:15 | |
fun and frequent is the slow death
where a minister falls under Myers | 0:58:15 | 0:58:22 | |
of scandal and cannot stay afloat.
Briefly, Lord Bates resigned | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
recently, were you there when that
happens? And then he came back. | 0:58:25 | 0:58:31 | |
Resigning once and then people do
come back and revise their history. | 0:58:31 | 0:58:35 | |
Lord Bates did not manage to resign,
the Prime Minister thought he'd gone | 0:58:35 | 0:58:40 | |
that far. But people do get second
chance, Peter Mandelson and David | 0:58:40 | 0:58:44 | |
Blunkett came back. It looked to me
from the radio this morning that | 0:58:44 | 0:58:49 | |
Damian Green might be looking for a
comeback. On that note we will end | 0:58:49 | 0:58:53 | |
the programme! Thank you very much
for coming and, the one o'clock News | 0:58:53 | 0:58:58 | |
is on BBC One now, for all of us,
thank you and goodbye. | 0:58:58 | 0:59:00 |