20/02/2018 Daily Politics


20/02/2018

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news with guest Alison Wolf, and including David Davis's Brexit speech in Vienna and the greatest resignations.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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The boss of Oxfam tells MPs he's

sorry for the damage the charity has

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done to the people of Haiti

and the wider efforts

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of aid workers.

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Post-Brexit Britain won't be

a 'Mad Max-style world',

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said David Davis, as he promises

the UK will maintain high standards

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and regulations outside the EU.

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Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,

accuses the newspapers of spreading

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'propaganda' about Jeremy Corbyn's

contact with a Czech

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agent in the 1980s.

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It's rather like sending your

opening batsmen to the crease,

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only for them to find -

the moment the first

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balls are bowled -

that their bats have been broken

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before the game by the team captain.

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LAUGHTER

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And we'll be looking back at some

of the biggest political

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resignations in history.

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All that in the next hour.

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And with us for the whole

of the programme today,

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it's the crossbench peer,

academic, and - since yesterday -

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member of the Government's

new review into tuition fees

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and university funding in England.

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Alison Wolf.

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Alison Wolf.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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First today, let's pick up on that

appearance in front of MPs

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by the Chief Executive of Oxfam,

Mark Goldring, following revelations

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about the sexual misconduct

of some staff in Haiti

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after the 2010 earthquake.

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He began by telling the

International Development Committee

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he was "deeply sorry" for comments

he made last week, when he suggested

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the actions of the charity were not

the equivalent of "murdering babies

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in their cots".

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He went on to apologise

for the damage caused by Oxfam.

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I repeat Oxfam's broader apology

and my personal apology.

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I am sorry, we are sorry,

for the damage that Oxfam has done,

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both to the people of Haiti,

but also to wider efforts for aid

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and development by possibly

undermining public support.

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Mark Goldring apologising. Alison

Wolf, do you trust Oxfam to root out

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the problems at the heart of this

scandal?

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I am sure that they will take

everything to do with sexual

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harassment and this behaviour

extremely seriously, I am quite sure

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they will do. I do think this

highlights in many ways the

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difficulty for huge aid agencies of

knowing what on Earth is going on

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among them many, many staff. One of

the rather disturbing things is the

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scale of the aid industry. The

degree to which when you arrive in a

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country, you will find large numbers

of competing aid industries.

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Charities. The number of people

engaged in what has become a real

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industry. An industry which also

lives by the media. So I guess they

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should not be surprised if they

risked dying by the media as well.

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Is that an implication that you

would like to see them trimmed in

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some way, the charities and aid

agencies, and funding reduced?

I

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don't want funding reduced, I am not

arguing we give too much foreign

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aid, it is absolutely right we

should give a great deal and

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admirable that we do so. But looking

at the way in which aid, the aid

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industry operates, you do wonder if

this is the best thing to do to

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empower local people, whether it

should not be scaled back, more

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money going directly to people who

are themselves inhabitants of the

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countries we try to help. A real

shift from this paternalistic model

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with its thousands and thousands of

employees.

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Let's leave it there.

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Cabinet ministers have been making

a series of speeches under the title

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'The Road to Brexit'.

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This morning, we've been hearing

from Environment Secretary

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Michael Gove on farming,

and Trade Secretary Liam Fox

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is talking about trade -

unsurprisingly.

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First up today was the Brexit

Secretary David Davis,

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who told an audience in Vienna that

after the UK leaves the EU, it

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won't plunge into a "Mad Max-style

world borrowed from dystopian

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fiction", and that the UK

would always maintain high standards

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to ensure frictionless trade

with the EU.

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So what's all the fuss about?

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David Davis said that fears

of a "race to the bottom" on issues

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like workers' rights

and environmental protection

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were "based on nothing".

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Labour - and leaders of some

of the largest trade unions -

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have long claimed the Conservatives

are pursuing

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a "bargain-basement Brexit".

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That would turn the UK into a "low

wage, offshore tax haven,"

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with assaults on workers' rights

and environmental protection.

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That was partly prompted

by the Prime Minister's oft-repeated

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assertion that "no deal is better

than a bad deal".

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by Philip Hammond, saying a year ago

that the UK would "do what we have

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to do" to remain competitive,

even if "forced to change

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our economic model".

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And the fact that

during the referendum,

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the Vote Leave campaign -

led by Michael Gove

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and Boris Johnson, now senior

members of the Cabinet -

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had claimed EU regulations costs

UK small business over

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£600 million a week.

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But the Government has pointed out

that its flagship EU Withdrawal Bill

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enshrines all EU protections into UK

law, so there'll be continuity

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immediately after Brexit.

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And just last month,

Philip Hammond said there was "no

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appetite" for a major change

to the UK's economic model,

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whatever people say.

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And that people in the UK remain

attracted to a European-style social

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economy, with strong protections

for labour, the environment,

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and welfare recipients.

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Well, earlier, David Davis took aim

at those who claim Brexit

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will be used as an excuse

to slash regulations.

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These fears about a race

to the bottom are based on nothing.

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Not our history, not our intentions,

not our national interest.

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Frankly, the competitive challenge

we in the UK and the European Union

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will face from the rest

of the world, where 90% of growth

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in markets will come from,

will not be met by a reduction

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in the standards.

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David Davis.

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David Davis.

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Well, for more, we can talk

to our chief political

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correspondent, Vicki Young,

who's in Vienna.

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David Davis has been giving a speech

there. What did we learn from the

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Brexit Secretary?

I think it has just been very

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striking not just today but Theresa

May at the Munich Security

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conference a couple of days ago, it

is all about cooperation continuing

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into the future. You think about the

argument made by some of the

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Conservative Party for decades, the

point of leaving the European Union

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is because of red tape, bureaucracy,

stifling Nitish business. We can be

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set free from that. That was not the

tone today, the tone today was more

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about reassurance, saying that we

are not going to undercut those high

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standards. Higher standards is what

we want and what we will try to

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achieve. Speaking the Austrian

businesspeople afterwards, they

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certainly felt the tone from British

ministers has changed in the last

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year. They think it is about the

reality is starting to bite and that

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in the end, when it comes to

manufacturing goods, the UK realises

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to keep that frictionless trade we

want so much we have to keep some

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kind of alignment. How we do that

has not been sorted out, and that

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Cabinet ministers meeting at the

country residence Chequers in the

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next couple of days, Theresa May may

have to look them in the room

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overnight we have had to get a deal.

Sounds great! If there has been a

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change in tone when it comes to this

idea of regulatory and alignment and

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not being set free in terms of

regulation, they're not those who

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voted Leave and key members of the

Cabinet who are not going to be very

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disappointed?

Yes, this is the key thing, can that

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pragmatic approach which something

David Davis has always had, will

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that persuade some of the others?

Irish Thomson, for example, who make

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that first speech on this road to

Brexit Dasher Horace Johnson.

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Various ministers laying out their

plans. He did acknowledge there may

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have to be some kind of alignment.

But I don't think we know how they

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are going to do that and maybe more

crucially, what the European Union

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will say about it. But today from

David Davis, it was, you can trust

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us, we have been your partner for

many years, you can trust us, we can

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make this work. Whether that trust

is that not is different matter.

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Thank you.

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Well, to discuss this,

we're joined by the Conservative MP

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and long-time Brexit supporter

Iain Duncan Smith,

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and Labour's Chuka Umunna

who supports the campaign group

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Open Britain, which wants the UK

to remain in the Single Market

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and Customs Union.

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Welcome. Iain Duncan Smith, do you

detect a change in tone? This talk

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about Britain being set free from

burdensome regulation out the

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window?

Not really, no. What he is

saying it for what the government

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has said for a long time that as we

leave, we are binding in everything

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into UK law, that was the bill on

which it went. In perpetuity? No,

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you review it and decide the keys.

There are a lot of areas we will

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want to review. When it comes to

things like workers' rights, we

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already have the most flexible

workforce in Europe. There is a

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reason why we would have to dump

regulations on that because it is

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more flexible than Germany. That is

not an issue. But there are other

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areas you look at and we will try

and change some of those

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regulations. When we were in

government with the Liberal

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Democrats, we used to have a very

simple rule that for every

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regulation you wanted to bring in,

you had to find three to get rid of.

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So which ones? Let me give you a

list I made before I came. Just a

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couple to start. The clinical trials

directive is dumped, non-commercial

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trials in the UK, it has been

appalling. We with the leader in

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commercial trials. We will destroy a

lot of ordinary stock brokers with a

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massive new amount of regulation.

And the other one is solvency two.

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That damages the UK because the UK

has this equity market where people

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get equity release as they get

older. That puts nearly 1%, 2% cost

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on that and we want to look at that.

The labelling is huge, bigger than

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the packages.

You have given some

examples.

I am simply saying there

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are a lot of areas we will look at.

He was not saying we will not look

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to change. He was saying, we will

always look to discuss that with our

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European partners in a free trade

arrangement. Explain to them why we

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want to change things where it is

necessary, that is all.

What is your

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evidence, Chuka Umunna? Any evidence

that the Government is planning

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anything like a bonfire of the

regulations after Brexit?

Well, you

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just have to look at the comments of

leading members of the Cabinet.

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Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Michael

Gove have talked about further

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liberalising the labour market. Part

of the problem David Davis and many

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on it that side of the argument is

their record. Iain Duncan Smith's

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maiden speech in May 1992 celebrated

the fact we were coming out of the

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European social chapter. He gave a

speech in the same Parliament in

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1996, in July.

Don't get distracted!

Let's listen. In July 1996, Iain was

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celebrating the need for a more

laissez faire approach to employment

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regulations. When you look at this

guy, this man voted for unfair

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dismissal to be more difficult to

claim, this guy voted for

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compensation for umpire -- unfair

dismissal to be reduced and

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employment tribunal these which were

ruled to be unlawful by the Supreme

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Court to be introduced. And now they

want you to give them the benefit of

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the doubt and have you believe...

So

you don't stand by that?

No, I do

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stand by what I said.

You do want to

strip away working regulations

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question no, stop, don't make this

so simplistic that people don't get

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it.

The point is that the problem is

when you make regulations for the

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entire European Union, areas of the

European Union have very different

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traditions and also different

marketplaces. I gave two examples in

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the financial services sector

handgun! Where they damage us. The

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difference in leaving, the UK will

look to make regulations to protect

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workers that are relevant to UK

working practice and not relevant to

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Greek or Italian practice. That is a

big difference. By the way, we have

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a very high level of worker

protection in the UK.

Thanks to the

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last Labour government. You have

stripped it away.

Tribunal fees? I

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can name a lot of things the Labour

government did I thought were

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terrible. We do it for the UK.

What

specific rights to the Conservatives

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go into the 2017 election promising

to scrap?

They did not go in

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promising to scrap specific rights

in 2010, but they did so, and this

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is the problem. In many respects,

you say, what is the evidence?

What

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is the evidence?

Let him respond. B

Croft review which was done during

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the 2010 election made a number of

recommendations, commissioned by

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David Cameron, it made a load of

recommendations and was dumped

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partly, and half of it was

incremented. The other half was not

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implemented because employment, EU

employment law protected British

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workers and stopped them stripping

it.

The review came in and we all

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argued we did not have the need for

fermenting any of that stuff.

Why

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was commissioned in the first place?

Because he did put forward and

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propose quite radical regulation.

It

was commissioned because he wanted

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to look at whether it was feasible

to make our labour market more

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feasible. The organ and I made and

continue to make, and I was in

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Germany not so long ago, and they

say we admire you because you have a

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more flexible set of regulations.

Hang on a second. The reality is

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that we already have a much greater

and more flexible workforce. And

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this is what happens when you have a

really flexible workforce. You end

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up with low and employment, more

people back in work than anywhere

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else in Europe.

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You said we should use Brexit to

slash red tape and regulation,

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Leslie burden on business and

citizens but we have heard from

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Chuka Umunna that those concerned

worker protections and writes in a

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broad sense. I have given you a

list.

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER M

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and my question.

Here is the point,

I have given you a set of examples I

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don't think anyone wanted but I have

given them to you, but none of them

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are about workers' rights. They are

all about the marketplace being

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damaged by overregulation. A lot of

that has been going on and the

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problem with Chuka and his side of

the argument is they always want to

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go on to take it that they are going

to damage you and virtue, no elected

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British government would

deliberately come in and try to

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damage people's lives. We want

businesses to generate income which

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provides work and jobs for people.

That may mean deregulation.

Many of

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my constituents have suffered...

Who

won election in 2015? If so many

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people were exercised about the

rights being stripped away why did

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they not elect a Labour government

to protect those rights? If British

0:16:330:16:37

government changes the rules and

regulations in the future post

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Brexit the British people can decide

to kick them out.

That is true and

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you admitted one thing, Labour may

not have won but Theresa May lost

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the majority.

I was talking about

2015.

You said rights had been

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stripped away in 2010 but anyway...

The broader point...

The important

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question is you either diverged

because you want to reduce

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protections, employment, the or a

new diverged to increase protection,

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name an area where you want to

improve things?

I have absolutely no

0:17:170:17:22

plans and the government has no

plans to lessen workers' rights. But

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here is one thing... Whilst you were

in government it was my government,

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and it was my idea that has pushed

the minimum wage up to £9 per hour,

0:17:300:17:36

Labour never did that, they never

got above £6 per hour. The reality

0:17:360:17:40

is it is that which does more to

protect workers in work. I am sorry,

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this lovely chest beating idea the

Labour Party has that only they

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protect people who go to work, the

least protected person is the person

0:17:500:17:54

out of work and you had terrible

levels of unemployment. We have high

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ones.

Let Chuka Umunna answer.

I

will not go back in history 3

0:17:580:18:04

million unemployed under Margaret to

Thatcher but you look again and you

0:18:040:18:09

will see the arguing against the

minimum wage. I am pleased has been

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an about turn, do not let people

believe you are a champion of the

0:18:160:18:21

National minimum wage, you did not

want it raised in the first place.

0:18:210:18:24

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER Do not

talk over each other, Iain Duncan

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Smith, Boris Johnson said that the

weight of employment regulation is

0:18:310:18:36

no backbreaking, the collective

redundancies directive, the working

0:18:360:18:39

Time directive, and a thousand more,

do you agree these are the things

0:18:390:18:44

which have been backbreaking for the

workforce?

It's important to look at

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all regulations which came in from

the European Union and decide if

0:18:490:18:51

they work well in the UK. I give you

a list... The point I want to make

0:18:510:18:56

is there are a whole list of things

which we think do not fit the UK's

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way of working. We want to preserve

the good bits and make sure the

0:19:020:19:05

other bits are either changed

unmodified...

0:19:050:19:13

unmodified...

"Changed".

What will

the country have to offer post

0:19:130:19:18

Brexit unless it is a low tax

economy?

What we will not have is a

0:19:180:19:24

massive level of cost of money we

have 2 cents to the European Union.

0:19:240:19:28

We will not have to impose many

damaging regulations which despite

0:19:280:19:31

Britain's businesses... Deregulation

is not always just about people's

0:19:310:19:38

workers' rights. It's about rules

and regulations on reporting in

0:19:380:19:43

business which cost massive amounts

of money which make business less

0:19:430:19:48

effective and less competitive.

Removing those will help improve

0:19:480:19:50

things.

What do you think listening

to that?

I was struck by the remark

0:19:500:19:57

that you can diverged by increasing

regulation as well as decreasing

0:19:570:20:00

regulation and my sense is that post

Brexit what will happen is over time

0:20:000:20:06

there will be increasing divergences

and probably some of it half the

0:20:060:20:09

country will welcome and the other

half will not and vice versa. But I

0:20:090:20:15

think what we have to except and

that is clearly what the government

0:20:150:20:19

is accepting is that we live in

increasingly regulated Globe and it

0:20:190:20:24

does impose costs but it's the

reality and you cannot trade unless

0:20:240:20:28

your goods and services are

recognised as acceptable by the

0:20:280:20:32

country you are exporting to. We

will regulate and regulate and

0:20:320:20:37

regulate well beyond my death and

that will be true whether or not we

0:20:370:20:42

crash out or get a good deal.

Thank

you both very much. You will have to

0:20:420:20:47

crash out of the studio for now.

0:20:470:20:51

The Deputy Leader of

the Labour Party, Tom Watson,

0:20:510:20:53

has this morning challenged

continuing claims by a number

0:20:530:20:55

of newspapers about contact

Jeremy Corbyn is alleged to have had

0:20:550:20:58

with a Czechoslovakian

diplomat and agent in

0:20:580:20:59

London during the 1980s.

0:20:590:21:03

The story, first reported

by the Sun last week,

0:21:030:21:05

is based on claims that a Czech

intelligence officer met and tried

0:21:050:21:08

to recruit Mr Corbyn

during the Cold War.

0:21:080:21:11

This morning's Daily Mail

is still carrying the story

0:21:110:21:13

on its front page.

0:21:130:21:15

It says, 'Time to be

open, Comrade Corbyn'.

0:21:150:21:18

While the Daily Telegraph

says 'Corbyn is urged

0:21:180:21:20

to reveal his Stasi file'.

0:21:200:21:24

The Labour leader's office has said

from the start that 'the claim that

0:21:240:21:27

Jeremy Corbyn was an agent,

asset, or informer for any

0:21:270:21:29

intelligence agency is entirely

false and a ridiculous smear'.

0:21:290:21:37

And this morning, Tom Watson has

used an article for the Independent

0:21:370:21:40

website to accuse "right-wing"

newspapers of spreading

0:21:400:21:42

propaganda about Mr Corbyn.

0:21:420:21:45

Newspaper proprietors

in this country abuse

0:21:450:21:46

their power," he writes.

0:21:460:21:48

"It's a unique kind of self-harm

for a newspaper to print a story

0:21:480:21:51

they know is poorly-sourced,

decide to run it regardless

0:21:510:21:54

because it suits their political

agenda, and pass it off as news."

0:21:540:21:58

Well, the Prime Minister was asked

about this story yesterday.

0:21:580:22:00

Here's what she had to say.

0:22:000:22:03

Well, first of all, I think it's

for individual Members of Parliament

0:22:030:22:06

to be accountable for their actions

in the past.

0:22:060:22:09

But also, I think that where there

are allegations of this sort,

0:22:090:22:12

that Members of Parliament should be

prepared to be open and transparent.

0:22:120:22:18

So that's what Mrs May had to say,

but what does Mr Corbyn have

0:22:180:22:21

to come clean about?

0:22:210:22:22

Yesterday, the BBC spoke

to the Director of the Czech

0:22:220:22:25

Security Services Archive.

0:22:250:22:26

Here's what she had to say.

0:22:260:22:32

TRANSLATION:

Mr Corbyn was not

a secret collaborator working

0:22:320:22:35

for the Czechoslovakian intelligence

service.

0:22:350:22:42

The files we have on him are kept

in a folder that starts

0:22:420:22:46

with the identification number one.

0:22:460:22:49

Secret collaborators were allocated

numbers that started

0:22:490:22:50

with the number four.

0:22:500:22:53

If he had been successfully

recruited as an informer,

0:22:530:22:56

then his person-of-interest file

would have been closed and a new one

0:22:560:22:59

would have been opened,

and that would have started

0:22:590:23:01

with a four.

0:23:010:23:06

That was the response

from the Director of the Czech

0:23:060:23:08

Security Services Archive yesterday.

0:23:080:23:12

And one of the Conservative Party's

deputy chairmen, the MP Ben Bradley,

0:23:120:23:16

last night deleted a tweet

which claimed Mr Corbyn "sold

0:23:160:23:17

British secrets to Communist spies",

following the threat of legal action

0:23:170:23:20

from the Labour leader's office.

0:23:200:23:24

So are these claims,

as Tom Watson says, "propaganda,

0:23:240:23:27

not journalism' and 'not worth

the paper they are written on'?

0:23:270:23:30

Well, Trevor Kavanagh

is from the Sun, which first

0:23:300:23:32

carried the story.

0:23:320:23:33

And Alex Nunns has written

a biography of Jeremy Corbyn and is

0:23:330:23:36

a supporter of the Labour leader.

0:23:360:23:40

Welcome to both of you. Trevor

Kavanagh, the files show he was a

0:23:400:23:44

person of interest but not a secret

collaborator or informer, this is a

0:23:440:23:50

witchhunt.

This is a typical shoot

the messenger tactic. It is richly

0:23:500:23:54

sourced in the sense we have spoken

to and have documentary evidence

0:23:540:23:58

that Jeremy Corbyn was seen at least

as an asset and had a codename and

0:23:580:24:04

that is documentary evidence. The

idea that it's not sourced is

0:24:040:24:09

absurd. There is more to this than

just the fact he was seen at least

0:24:090:24:14

by the Czechoslovakian regime as an

asset and that includes him taking a

0:24:140:24:19

tour of East Germany on a motorbike

back in the 70s.

That is very

0:24:190:24:24

different, being seen as a person of

interest is nowhere near the same as

0:24:240:24:27

being an informant or a spy and

therefore that has led to claims

0:24:270:24:31

you're running a smear campaign.

We

have never said Jeremy Corbyn is a

0:24:310:24:37

spy, that he took money, we are

reporting the view that he met him

0:24:370:24:47

at least four times, more than the

one-time Jeremy Corbyn admitted to.

0:24:470:24:50

Is he credible or eight fantasist?

Your mac he has evidence.

0:24:500:24:56

There is documentary evidence that

Jeremy Corbyn was seen as an acid

0:25:010:25:04

and had a codename on the files.

Alex Nunns, at best you could say

0:25:040:25:10

Jeremy Corbyn was naive, he said he

met a Czechoslovakian diplomat and

0:25:100:25:14

other dealings he had in the 1980s,

is it in the public interest for

0:25:140:25:19

newspapers to scrutinise his

background?

Of course but here we

0:25:190:25:24

have a credible source on one side

and the person on the other side,

0:25:240:25:29

the former spy who says he organised

live aid. The other day he said he

0:25:290:25:34

organised that. This guy has no

credibility. He also says John

0:25:340:25:39

McDonnell was passing secrets to

Russia when John McDonnell was

0:25:390:25:42

working her Camden Borough Council.

His credibility is shredded and he

0:25:420:25:46

is a fantasist. For newspapers to

report it, OK it is legitimate, but

0:25:460:25:53

for the continuous front-page Farage

we've seen over the last half a week

0:25:530:25:58

there is no justification.

Trevor

Kavanagh, what information would a

0:25:580:26:03

Labour backbencher on the periphery

of a party be able to give the

0:26:030:26:07

Czechoslovakian Secret Service?

It

is impossible to know.

He didn't

0:26:070:26:12

have any.

Let me finish. Spies don't

just met somebody haul in a net,

0:26:120:26:20

they add information together piece

by piece until it forms a line. You

0:26:200:26:23

don't know what you're giving the

people you're talking to,

0:26:230:26:26

inadvertently perhaps, but you don't

know what you are providing to them

0:26:260:26:29

and it's best not to get involved.

Several formal meetings which were

0:26:290:26:38

annotated at the time by a man who

was clearly a spy for the

0:26:380:26:41

Czechoslovakian regime and a member

of Parliament.

Do you think Jeremy

0:26:410:26:45

Corbyn should be more open about his

past meetings and dealings in the

0:26:450:26:48

way Theresa May has asked him to be

because at the best it doesn't look

0:26:480:26:52

good if there have been meetings

with people from the opposite side

0:26:520:26:54

during the Cold War?

I'm not sure

that is true. We are talking about

0:26:540:27:03

1986, the time when the Soviet Union

and the Eastern Bloc were opening up

0:27:030:27:06

and trying to make connections. We

are talking about a period when

0:27:060:27:11

three years earlier in 1983 the

world had been on the brink of

0:27:110:27:14

nuclear war with mistakes on both

sides. Surely having all those kind

0:27:140:27:19

of conversations across borders is

important? We also don't know why

0:27:190:27:24

Jeremy Corbyn met this diplomat, but

at the time I understand he was in

0:27:240:27:29

touch with Czechoslovakian

dissidents, he might have been

0:27:290:27:32

meeting them to lobby on their

behalf.

Tom Watson has strongly

0:27:320:27:37

criticised your newspaper and others

over this, saying newspaper

0:27:370:27:42

proprietors abused their power. You

have run a story with evidence which

0:27:420:27:46

is being conflicted here.

None of it

is... None of the evidence we have

0:27:460:27:52

published has been contradicted.

Do

you contradict the evidence?

The

0:27:520:27:58

lady we heard from earlier

contradicts the spy. So we have a

0:27:580:28:06

conviction in sources.

Maybe.

You

say maybe, so do you accept it and

0:28:060:28:14

abuse of power to put this story on

the front page, make it sent on news

0:28:140:28:18

day after day after day?

Of course

not and I'm sure you don't either.

0:28:180:28:23

What I think is irrelevant.

Of

course it is. What is much more

0:28:230:28:30

important than this which was a

fishing expedition is much less

0:28:300:28:36

important, please do not shut me

down... Jeremy Corbyn and I'm a

0:28:360:28:44

motorcycle ride around East Germany

in the 70s. I have travelled widely

0:28:440:28:49

in Communist China and Soviet Russia

since the 70s, you did not go into

0:28:490:28:53

those countries without good reason

on behalf of the people who are

0:28:530:28:59

posting new and they watched you and

monitored you every step of the way

0:28:590:29:02

from the moment you got up until you

went to bed.

What do you say?

He

0:29:020:29:08

went on holiday with Diane Abbott.

We are just combining desperate

0:29:080:29:13

random things from his past and

trying to put them into this

0:29:130:29:17

ridiculous story that Jeremy Corbyn

was a paid informant which is what

0:29:170:29:20

has been reported without any

evidence of that.

Is this a

0:29:200:29:24

reasonable line of scrutiny?

I think

it's reasonable for newspapers to

0:29:240:29:29

print a great deal of material, on

that I think it's important that we

0:29:290:29:37

have a free press and they will

often print stories which are then

0:29:370:29:39

shown to be inaccurate in some way

are exaggerated and the result of

0:29:390:29:44

that is people who follow them end

up with the correct conclusion. So I

0:29:440:29:49

am strongly against the idea that

you should not publish material

0:29:490:29:53

within the bounds of the law. In

this particular case I don't have a

0:29:530:29:58

clue but I suspect a week from now

anyone who is following it in detail

0:29:580:30:02

will be in a position to form some

more informed view of what is going

0:30:020:30:08

on so I think the basic principle

that the press should publish is

0:30:080:30:13

absolutely of central importance. To

make a different point, this strange

0:30:130:30:17

way, whether or not this strengthens

the position of Jeremy Corbyn or has

0:30:170:30:21

the opposite effect, I do feel a

slight sense of, I don't know about

0:30:210:30:28

relief but slight surprise that the

issues to do with the Cold War are

0:30:280:30:34

suddenly on the front pages again.

One of the things which strikes me

0:30:340:30:37

as a university teacher is the

perhaps inevitable but terrifying

0:30:370:30:42

extent to which people have

forgotten any history that they only

0:30:420:30:46

learned as history and I do think

that the period of the Cold War was

0:30:460:30:53

relevant, is relevant, to where we

are today. That it hasn't gone away

0:30:530:30:57

so this is completely separate from

whether or not this story turns out

0:30:570:31:01

to be extremely well founded or

extremely ill founded. I think it's

0:31:010:31:04

a good idea that the country is

being reminded of recent history.

It

0:31:040:31:09

is and thank you for coming in.

0:31:090:31:11

The collapse of several rape trials

over problems relating to disclosure

0:31:130:31:16

of evidence at the end of last year

led to calls to look again

0:31:160:31:19

at the way those accused of sexual

offences are treated by the courts.

0:31:190:31:22

One student - who spent two years

on bail before the rape case

0:31:220:31:25

against him collapsed -

called for those in his position

0:31:250:31:28

to be granted anonymity.

0:31:280:31:30

So should the law be changed, again?

0:31:300:31:33

Anonymity in rape cases was given

to both complainants

0:31:330:31:37

and defendants for the first time

by the Sexual Offences Act of 1976.

0:31:370:31:42

But just 12 years later, in 1988,

the Act's provisions on defendant

0:31:420:31:45

anonymity were repealed

by Margaret Thatcher's government.

0:31:450:31:53

During the passage of the 2003

Sexual Offences Act,

0:31:530:31:57

the Home Affairs Committee called

for limited anonymity to be restored

0:31:570:32:00

to cover suspects who had not yet

been charged with a sexual offence.

0:32:000:32:04

In May 2010, the coalition

government published plans

0:32:040:32:07

to "extend anonymity in rape cases

to defendants", but it dropped

0:32:070:32:09

the idea later that year -

on the grounds that there wasn't

0:32:090:32:12

enough evidence to

support the policy.

0:32:120:32:15

In 2015, the Home Affairs Select

Committee again recommended

0:32:150:32:17

anonymity for those suspected

of a sex offence, unless and

0:32:170:32:20

until they're charged.

0:32:200:32:24

Joining me now is the campaigner

and spokesperson for

0:32:240:32:26

Women Against Rape, Lisa Longstaff.

0:32:260:32:33

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Why

do you think we keep coming back to

0:32:330:32:37

this issue, is it a sign the current

law is not working?

Now I think that

0:32:370:32:41

there are scandalous cases which are

largely, often, the result of

0:32:410:32:48

inadequate and negligent

investigations. Which get in the

0:32:480:32:52

public eye. And because a

hullabaloo. And it is often driven

0:32:520:33:01

by people accused who are

celebrities or in positions of

0:33:010:33:03

power.

But not always, is it

justifiable if there are cases which

0:33:030:33:08

are rightly exposed for the evidence

not being properly collected?

Yes,

0:33:080:33:13

but there are also quite a lot of

cases where a man ends up being

0:33:130:33:19

convicted and turns out to have been

a very prolific and serial offender.

0:33:190:33:23

And just like every other person who

is accused, they say, no, I did not

0:33:230:33:29

do it when first approached.

Is that

the reason you think it is important

0:33:290:33:34

that complainants in rape cases get

grunted bowl anonymity?

They are

0:33:340:33:39

granted full anonymity because they

are vilified in the press. Exposed

0:33:390:33:46

and basically it puts people off

reporting. That is why victims were

0:33:460:33:50

granted anonymity in 1976, at the

same time as people accused. But

0:33:500:33:56

granting it the people accused of

rape now would separate it from

0:33:560:34:00

every other kind of crime. That is

one of the arguments that goes

0:34:000:34:03

against it. Why should rapists, all

men accused of rape be given

0:34:030:34:08

different standards?

Complainants

another cases do not have anonymity

0:34:080:34:14

and rape is different. It has become

even more so with the advent of

0:34:140:34:19

social media. I am strongly in

favour of anonymity for people who

0:34:190:34:23

are suspected, at least until they

are charged. The reality is that if

0:34:230:34:28

you are accused of rape, the mud

sticks forever. It is absolutely

0:34:280:34:34

horrendous the stories you get from

people. I argued once and a TV

0:34:340:34:39

programme in favour of anonymity for

defendants. I got these horrendous

0:34:390:34:44

stories not from celebrities, we

will come to that in a moment, but

0:34:440:34:48

from perfectly ordinary people who

because they had been accused of

0:34:480:34:53

rape, there were exposed on social

media, on Google forever. Their name

0:34:530:34:58

is out in the public domain, as in

the cases of these people we have

0:34:580:35:02

described. If it is a special crime

and it is a special crime which is

0:35:020:35:06

why we have anonymity for

complainants, it is a special crime

0:35:060:35:10

for people who have not yet been

proven guilty and may not have even

0:35:100:35:12

been charged.

Do you accept that,

that you say there is a danger of

0:35:120:35:18

the complainant being vilified and

also a danger and quite often it

0:35:180:35:22

happens for defendants to be equally

vilified and they may be wrongly

0:35:220:35:25

accused?

I think that what this relies on

0:35:250:35:29

partly is the myth that a lot of

women wrongly accused man of rape

0:35:290:35:34

and they are lying, and that is very

distorted. Blown out of all

0:35:340:35:38

proportion compared to the number of

real wrong accusations. Secondly, I

0:35:380:35:44

think that what is really important

about why we need people to be named

0:35:440:35:50

is that if it were imposed that they

would get anonymity until charged, a

0:35:500:35:58

lot of people would not come

forward. A lot of the victims,

0:35:580:36:02

because it is such a shame making

crime and because people are so

0:36:020:36:08

damaged, and often it is the most

abominable people who are attacked

0:36:080:36:12

in this way, including children, but

not only, it is a big deterrent

0:36:120:36:17

coming for the -- it is the most

vulnerable people. A lot of people

0:36:170:36:22

do not come forward about the most

prolific serial attackers.

We don't

0:36:220:36:28

know how much of that's true, we

have no evidence and rightly not

0:36:280:36:31

because everybody is anonymous on

the complainant side. I come back to

0:36:310:36:36

watch a fundamental principle of

British justice, it you are innocent

0:36:360:36:41

until proven guilty and you do not

get your case to court unless is the

0:36:410:36:46

evidence.

But you are still innocent

until proven guilty, this is about

0:36:460:36:51

being named.

In reality, you are not

commit you are vilified. People say,

0:36:510:36:56

no smoke without fire, your life is

put on hold, you are sacked from

0:36:560:37:00

your job and thrown out from your

university, your name is all over

0:37:000:37:03

the press. And then you save that of

few cases, we don't know how many

0:37:030:37:08

cases there are! We do! Know, we do

not know how many cases that are

0:37:080:37:14

where people are convicted wrongly.

That is why we have to be so

0:37:140:37:17

careful.

Do you accept that people's

reputations ruined even if they

0:37:170:37:23

found innocent and even if it is

small number of cases? That for the

0:37:230:37:29

people who are suspected of rape,

that it does stick forever?

What I

0:37:290:37:33

don't accept is that this is a

uniquely stigmatising crime. If you

0:37:330:37:38

are accused of murder or terrorism,

you do not get anonymity.

So why not

0:37:380:37:45

get anonymity for all crimes?

You

don't get anonymity as a complainant

0:37:450:37:49

in terrorism cases on Mr is a

special case and the prosecution and

0:37:490:37:53

police can give it to you. I come

back to the fundamental principle of

0:37:530:37:56

the British legal system and the

freedom of our country, you don't

0:37:560:38:01

take a case to court unless you can

make that case stick. If you don't

0:38:010:38:05

have a case for which you have

adequate care evidence, you don't

0:38:050:38:09

take it court. You seem to be

saying, let's get lots of to come

0:38:090:38:13

forward and even if the first case

has not got adequate evidence, it

0:38:130:38:17

seems all right. Because there will

be so many people. We don't do that

0:38:170:38:21

with the cases, you don't come into

court to be tried of all sorts.

No,

0:38:210:38:26

that is not what I am saying. There

have been a lot of high-profile

0:38:260:38:30

cases in the most recent years where

people have been getting away with

0:38:300:38:34

raping lots of people. You have to

acknowledge that, that is a fact.

0:38:340:38:39

Barry Bennell was just convicted,

Jimmy Sample, dozens in between, not

0:38:390:38:44

only celebrities, but others who do

not get in the public eye because

0:38:440:38:47

they are not in the public eye --

Jimmy Sample. If they had not been

0:38:470:38:52

named early on, many victims would

not have come forward and they would

0:38:520:38:57

not have had enough evidence and it

would not have gone to court. The

0:38:570:39:02

reality is only 6% of recorded rapes

and is in conflict fishing. Not

0:39:020:39:07

because 94% of women lying. -- in

conviction. Women still get grills,

0:39:070:39:15

cases are not all handled properly.

Any woman who makes a complaint is

0:39:150:39:20

telling the 100% truth, you make

that assumption. Rape is a very

0:39:200:39:28

difficult crime because in many

cases, two people have very

0:39:280:39:31

different memories of that. That is

why it has always been a very

0:39:310:39:35

difficult crime, the most difficult

crime and time and again, it has

0:39:350:39:38

been felt it has to be treated

differently. People have different

0:39:380:39:42

memories and people have false

memories. People construct memories

0:39:420:39:45

and people also lie to themselves.

No.

I don't agree, sorry. Of course

0:39:450:39:54

some rapists have been let off. To

make it is much more important a

0:39:540:39:59

number of innocent people do not go

to jail and we do not imprison the

0:39:590:40:04

innocent, and we risk some guilty

people walking away.

Nobody wants

0:40:040:40:09

the innocent putting imprison,

including us, but it is very

0:40:090:40:12

important if people are having their

lives ruined by violence, they have

0:40:120:40:19

the right to see justice and have

their attacker prosecuted.

It is a

0:40:190:40:24

class issue, I think. On that, thank

you very much.

0:40:240:40:29

This year marks the 60th

anniversary of the Campaign

0:40:290:40:31

for Nuclear Disarmament -

and that means it's also

0:40:310:40:34

the anniversary of one

of the world's most recognised

0:40:340:40:36

political symbols,

adopted by the CND ahead

0:40:360:40:37

of an anti-nuclear weapons march

to Aldermaston in 1958.

0:40:370:40:40

Ellie Price has been taking a look.

0:40:400:40:48

For millions around the world,

it's simply the peace sign.

0:40:500:40:52

But its origins are home-grown.

0:40:520:41:00

Designed by a British artist called

Gerald Holtom ahead of a march

0:41:010:41:04

he himself was going on.

0:41:040:41:05

And the design is surprisingly

straightforward.

0:41:050:41:13

It's the maritime signal, for N.

0:41:190:41:21

And D.

0:41:210:41:22

Nuclear.

0:41:220:41:23

Disarmament.

0:41:230:41:24

Gerald Holtom first showed this

sketch of the image to a few members

0:41:240:41:27

of the organising committee of that

protest march to Aldermaston

0:41:270:41:30

in February 1958.

0:41:300:41:31

Michael Randle was one

of four people in the room.

0:41:310:41:33

Well, I was a little bit unsure.

0:41:330:41:35

I didn't immediately say, oh, yeah,

that's great, we must do that.

0:41:350:41:41

But some of these other

pictures helped to enthuse,

0:41:410:41:43

I think, all of us.

0:41:430:41:44

He showed a big streamer

banner which would stretch

0:41:440:41:47

right across the road,

with the symbol on it,

0:41:470:41:49

it would be spectacular.

0:41:490:41:50

So he had thought about

what the march would look

0:41:500:41:52

like with this symbol on.

0:41:520:41:53

And really, he sold it

to us on that basis.

0:41:530:41:56

The march took place over Easter,

just a few weeks later.

0:41:560:41:59

So you were on this march?

0:41:590:42:00

Yes.

0:42:000:42:05

Gerald Holtom's daughter,

Anna, was 15 at the time.

0:42:050:42:07

She'd helped make some

of the placards -

0:42:070:42:09

albeit begrudgingly.

0:42:090:42:10

I think I was really a bit annoyed

with their plans to go

0:42:100:42:13

to Aldermaston because I probably

had some boyfriend

0:42:130:42:15

that I wanted to see.

0:42:150:42:21

I wasn't too sure.

0:42:210:42:24

It was a very cold day, I believe.

0:42:240:42:31

Going to Aldermaston,

on a long walk, with not

0:42:310:42:34

the right clothes, was not

something I looked forward to.

0:42:340:42:37

He loved the idea of the lollipop

placard because they are easy

0:42:370:42:40

to hold, and he was

thrilled with that circle.

0:42:400:42:42

And we were all in the workshop

working away, printing them

0:42:420:42:44

and sticking them on.

0:42:440:42:48

Sometimes getting splinters

in our hands because the wood

0:42:480:42:50

was not very nice wood.

0:42:500:42:54

The march was a success.

0:42:540:42:59

So much so that it was

repeated for several years.

0:42:590:43:03

And there at the beginning

was an American peace and civil

0:43:030:43:05

rights campaigner called

Bayard Rustin, who was so impressed

0:43:050:43:08

with the protest, and the symbol,

that he took it to the US and helped

0:43:080:43:11

organise the 1963

March on Washington.

0:43:110:43:14

From then, the CND symbol

would become known more

0:43:140:43:16

broadly as the peace sign.

0:43:160:43:17

So it was just as well that

Gerald Holtom hadn't copyrighted it.

0:43:170:43:24

I think that's what's

made it successful.

0:43:240:43:25

Because, you know, people

could reproduce it in whatever form

0:43:250:43:31

format seemed right to them,

in whatever context and to take

0:43:310:43:34

on whatever meaning

they wanted it to take on.

0:43:340:43:37

It's as modern today

as it was in the 1960s and '50s.

0:43:370:43:40

And six decades on, the CND don't

mind sharing their logo either.

0:43:400:43:43

I think having this symbol,

which embraces all these aspects

0:43:430:43:48

of the peace movement, has great

resonance with young people

0:43:480:43:52

as well as across the generations.

0:43:520:43:53

I think that's very, very powerful.

0:43:530:43:58

I think it's helped the cause

of peace to be as significant

0:43:580:44:01

as it is in Britain today.

0:44:010:44:02

We're joined now by

the designer Stephen Bayley.

0:44:020:44:06

Why is it such a great design?

Well,

that our tests of good design and I

0:44:060:44:12

think endurance is one of them and

it has lasted 60 years. Another

0:44:120:44:16

thing is adaptability and it works

and a T-shirt and surfer you's

0:44:160:44:21

camper van, it works on banners. And

it is a logo, a graphic device which

0:44:210:44:26

has created a brand and sense of

awareness. It was a great film and I

0:44:260:44:31

suspect that is retrospective

rationalisation about the semaphore.

0:44:310:44:36

I don't know, no one knows. But I

suspect it. I suspect he was playing

0:44:360:44:42

around with a Christian cross and it

went one way. But a great logo

0:44:420:44:46

often...

But it really was an axe,

not some great motivation?

Just like

0:44:460:44:54

Coca-Cola had to be the signature of

the company's book-keeper, the

0:44:540:44:56

famous FedEx logo, the graphic

designer was mucking about with

0:44:560:45:02

eight typeface and suddenly a narrow

appeared. He did not intend that. I

0:45:020:45:07

think that happened here. But

endurance and adaptability, it was

0:45:070:45:13

well after the Charlie had the

atrocity in Paris, it became an

0:45:130:45:17

Eiffel Tower and that is another

sign of excellence and design,

0:45:170:45:20

something that stays the same.

0:45:200:45:25

It transcends countries and

movements?

Yes, I love the

0:45:250:45:30

discipline in trying to design a

little graphic thing, a little

0:45:300:45:34

visual pun which can last and endure

and carry meaning.

I don't think the

0:45:340:45:40

designer would have thought it would

be so successful?

Yes, the

0:45:400:45:46

book-keeper of Coca-Cola did not

think it would become a recognisable

0:45:460:45:49

logo when he was just doing a

scribble.

And it has gone beyond its

0:45:490:45:53

original meaning as it is now a

symbol for peace.

It was very much

0:45:530:45:58

about the CND campaign. The other

thing was even people like me could

0:45:580:46:02

draw it, anyone could.

So the

simplicity of it in terms of its

0:46:020:46:07

reproduction at various levels on

placards and T-shirts.

There is a

0:46:070:46:11

rule in all communication, simplify

then exaggerate. That is what has

0:46:110:46:18

happened here. This simplicity is

very hard won, it's not a silly

0:46:180:46:23

doodle, it might have been created

by unpredictable processes but this

0:46:230:46:29

guy thought long and hard and worked

and worked and worked on it and that

0:46:290:46:34

is why it's the 10,000 hour thing, I

don't know how long he spent on it

0:46:340:46:37

but it's the end of a very

thoughtful process.

Can you think of

0:46:370:46:42

any other symbols that have, you

mentioned some of the other logos, I

0:46:420:46:46

am trying to think of political

symbols which have been as

0:46:460:46:49

prominent? And you're done the same

way?

What interests me about the CND

0:46:490:46:55

logo, and I think it's important to

distinguish between a logo and the

0:46:550:46:59

brand, logo is a graphic device and

if it works well it creates more

0:46:590:47:04

diffuse brand values. What

fascinates me further is the way

0:47:040:47:07

brands operate like religions do.

That applies here and two other

0:47:070:47:11

great brands like Apple. Steve Jobs

appearances in San Francisco is like

0:47:110:47:18

the second coming and designed to be

so. All great brands model on

0:47:180:47:26

religion, you have a congregation,

you have an icon, literally an icon

0:47:260:47:29

and a belief system.

It has not been

copyrighted. That might have helped.

0:47:290:47:37

It is interesting point about

religion because I think there have

0:47:370:47:39

been times when it might have been

writ misrepresented if it was seen

0:47:390:47:46

as a Christian or anti-Christian, do

you think it ever gave a sense of

0:47:460:47:51

being anti-religious?

It gives a

sense of not being specifically

0:47:510:47:55

religious. There is talk about its

origin, there was a sign on a

0:47:550:48:02

gravestone somewhere in Brittany a

stone carving which was almost

0:48:020:48:07

identical to this and that probably

had some esoteric religious

0:48:070:48:11

significance so I think what is

clever about trying to deconstruct

0:48:110:48:14

this is it is nonspecific but it has

the power and suggestiveness of a

0:48:140:48:20

religious symbol.

And it has endured

this discussion, thank you very much

0:48:200:48:25

Stephen Bayley.

0:48:250:48:29

As we reported on yesterday's

programme, Theresa May has launched

0:48:290:48:31

a review into tuition fees.

0:48:310:48:33

It's going to last a year,

and the Prime Minister acknowledged

0:48:330:48:35

that students in England face "one

of the most expensive systems

0:48:350:48:38

of university tuition in the world".

0:48:380:48:39

But she said the review

won't look at scrapping fees,

0:48:390:48:42

which would push up taxes and mean

limiting the number

0:48:420:48:44

of university places.

0:48:440:48:45

Let's have a look.

0:48:450:48:46

The review will now look

at the whole question of how

0:48:460:48:49

students and graduates contribute

to the cost of their studies,

0:48:490:48:52

including the level terms

and duration of their contribution.

0:48:520:48:56

Our goal is a funding system

which provides value for money

0:48:560:48:58

for graduates and taxpayers,

so the principle that students,

0:48:580:49:01

as well as taxpayers,

should contribute to the cost

0:49:010:49:05

of their studies

is an important one.

0:49:050:49:09

I believe - as do most people,

including students -

0:49:090:49:13

that those who benefit directly

from higher education

0:49:130:49:15

should contribute directly

towards the cost of it.

0:49:150:49:18

That's only fair.

0:49:180:49:20

And our guest of the day,

Alison Wolf, is one of the people

0:49:200:49:24

appointed to this review

into post-18 education.

0:49:240:49:29

Obviously only in the last 24-48

hours.

Exactly!

Should scrapping

0:49:290:49:34

tuition fees be part of the remit?

Can I say this is not just about

0:49:340:49:42

university tuition fees, it is as it

has always meant to be before the

0:49:420:49:50

campaign and the Labour position, it

has always been about funding in

0:49:500:49:56

general for tertiary students,

people older than 18 which is

0:49:560:50:00

different from those in compulsory

education and that is what the view

0:50:000:50:02

is about. Some of those people don't

pay fees at all because if you are

0:50:020:50:09

over 18 and do certain courses in

which you have an entitlement you do

0:50:090:50:15

not pay fees.

Yes but it has been

slightly overshadowed, overtaken by

0:50:150:50:19

this idea of tuition fees and that's

because the government has placed it

0:50:190:50:23

there.

The media has placed it

there.

It was Theresa May who said

0:50:230:50:27

we have one of the most expensive

systems in the world...

In the part

0:50:270:50:32

you chose to play she talked about

what we have is an extraordinarily

0:50:320:50:36

unfair bifurcated system where huge

amounts of money going to higher

0:50:360:50:43

education and universities and

students are racking up vast numbers

0:50:430:50:46

of debts and are technical and

vocational sector which has been

0:50:460:50:49

starved of funds where a number of

students who can find courses to go

0:50:490:50:54

on has been declining at a

terrifying rate. That is actually

0:50:540:51:00

clearly when you look at the terms

of reference the core part of this

0:51:000:51:05

review, to bring those bits

together.

Is it not slightly strange

0:51:050:51:09

to have focused on the idea of

making vocational education the

0:51:090:51:13

central part, if it is, without

putting more funds behind it?

We

0:51:130:51:18

have not said they will not put more

funds buying that.

Do they need to?

0:51:180:51:25

My sense is that any government that

is serious about getting a

0:51:250:51:29

functioning post-18 system will over

the next few decades have to shift

0:51:290:51:36

it puts its funding more towards

technical and vocational courses

0:51:360:51:38

than it does at the moment. I don't

have a clue if they will do it and

0:51:380:51:42

it's not about closing down

universities tomorrow which again,

0:51:420:51:47

clearly, the review, even if we

recommended that they would not do

0:51:470:51:50

it. But I do think it's important to

understand this review is about all

0:51:500:51:57

post-18 funding, it's not just about

should there be lower fees...

How

0:51:570:52:04

much freedom have you been given?

Quite a lot but it's not an

0:52:040:52:09

independent review, we and an expert

panel which makes recommendations.

0:52:090:52:13

But there is no force behind them,

it is the government to decide if

0:52:130:52:18

they take any of our advice.

I am

taking a point it's not just about

0:52:180:52:22

university and tuition fees but do

you think the option of scrapping

0:52:220:52:26

tuition fees should have been part

of it?

I don't see how it could be

0:52:260:52:30

because we cannot begin to afford to

scrap all tuition fees and it was

0:52:300:52:39

never likely it would ask us to look

at that possibility because it's

0:52:390:52:42

been quite clear that actually

nobody in this government really

0:52:420:52:47

thinks it is financial feasible. The

Labour Party does but I think if

0:52:470:52:55

they had done that it would have

been a terrible distortion because

0:52:550:52:59

then everyone would have gone on

about that to the extinction of any

0:52:590:53:03

other sensible discussion.

Good luck

with the review.

0:53:030:53:08

Resignations are a fact of political

life, whether they're

0:53:080:53:10

of the long-drawn out variety -

in which the minister hangs

0:53:100:53:12

on by his or her fingernails -

or the sudden departure as part

0:53:120:53:16

of a plot to bring down a leader.

0:53:160:53:17

Well a new book looks at some

of the most sensational resignations

0:53:170:53:20

over the past century -

we'll speak to the author

0:53:200:53:23

in a moment, but first

let's have a look at some

0:53:230:53:25

of the most famous.

0:53:250:53:29

This report does contain flashing

images.

0:53:290:53:32

At five, it we now carry a rising

Tory star with a reputation for

0:53:360:53:40

straight talking like during the

1988 salmonella scare.

Most of the

0:53:400:53:47

egg production in this country is

infected with salmonella.

Farmers

0:53:470:53:51

were outraged and she had to go.

Robin Cook served Tony Blair loyally

0:53:510:53:58

but this speech ahead of the

invasion of Iraq was a masterclass

0:53:580:54:00

in how to resign on a matter of

principle.

I cannot support a war

0:54:000:54:05

without international agreement or

domestic support.

Geoffrey Howe was

0:54:050:54:11

Margaret Thatcher's first Chancellor

but after 11 years he lost his

0:54:110:54:15

patience, particularly over Europe

and his weapon of choice was

0:54:150:54:18

cricket.

0:54:180:54:18

It's rather like sending your

opening batsmen to the crease,

0:54:180:54:20

only for them to find -

the moment the first

0:54:200:54:23

balls are bowled -

that their bats have been broken

0:54:230:54:25

before the game by the team captain.

0:54:250:54:27

LAUGHTER

0:54:270:54:31

Margaret Thatcher was gone within a

month. The ultimate political

0:54:310:54:36

scandal of the 19 affair, the

Secretary of State for War having an

0:54:360:54:43

affair with the model Christine

Keeler who was to timing him with a

0:54:430:54:47

Russian spy. The kind of had to go.

In 1970 the Labour frontbencher John

0:54:470:54:54

Stonehouse was so overwhelmed by

personal and money problems he quit,

0:54:540:54:57

by leaving his clothes and passport

on a Miami Beach and faking his own

0:54:570:55:01

death. Papers speculated he had been

eaten by sharks but he was found in

0:55:010:55:08

Australia. He tried to enter front

line politics but ended up in prison

0:55:080:55:12

for fraud.

I became more and more of

a sham and I did not realise until

0:55:120:55:20

the very recent past when it hit me

like a thunderbolt.

0:55:200:55:27

And the author of Fighters

and Quitters: Great Parliamentary

0:55:270:55:29

Resignations is Theo Barclay,

he joins us now.

0:55:290:55:34

This is the book, I thought it might

have been even bigger!

Yes, quite a

0:55:340:55:39

few to get in so I chose 25 of the

best.

How did you choose them, did

0:55:390:55:44

you find there was just too much

information?

I applied a cut-off at

0:55:440:55:50

1938 because one of my favourites is

the Duchess of Atholl who resigned

0:55:500:55:56

in 1938 in protest against the

appeasement of Hitler. She was

0:55:560:56:00

proved right in the end, she staged

a by-election on that single issue a

0:56:000:56:05

bit like David Davis did a few years

ago. She failed but she has gone

0:56:050:56:09

down in history as being proved

right in the end. I started with

0:56:090:56:12

horror and then the 25 following

that, some everyone will know and

0:56:120:56:16

others hopefully not so familiar.

So

there might be some we have never

0:56:160:56:20

heard of? What was your favourite.

John Stonehouse is probably the best

0:56:200:56:27

story because it has so many

elements. He was a paid-up spy for

0:56:270:56:32

many years and then he had an fair,

he left his wife had faked his own

0:56:320:56:37

death because he was in money

troubles and he was discovered

0:56:370:56:41

bizarrely a few months later in

Australia because the police thought

0:56:410:56:45

he was Lord Lucan who had also gone

missing around that time. On

0:56:450:56:49

discovering he was not Lord Lucan

they shipped him back to Britain and

0:56:490:56:53

he had a trial where he represented

himself and eat it out for months

0:56:530:56:57

and months to the extent that the

whole grim justice system had to be

0:56:570:57:01

reformed to stop you wasting time in

that way. He has gone down as quick

0:57:010:57:06

character.

Any memorable ones for

you, not you personally?

The one the

0:57:060:57:13

film brought back to me was it we

now carry and the eggs, there was a

0:57:130:57:17

second story for her later and her

affair with John Major -- was it we

0:57:170:57:21

now carry and the eggs. This

wonderful book is that it brings

0:57:210:57:26

back all these things about the feel

of politics at the time that

0:57:260:57:30

somebody resigned and how different

some of it is when you see those

0:57:300:57:33

pictures.

There is a difference

between scandal and trying to bring

0:57:330:57:40

down a leader or resigning over

policy. Which way does the balance

0:57:400:57:43

tip?

I have identified three types

and you have covered them, the

0:57:430:57:50

principled stand which is when

someone cannot go along with

0:57:500:57:53

something the government is doing

and I think Robin Cook is the best

0:57:530:57:57

example of that as you saw in the

film. Then you have political

0:57:570:58:01

assassination which you saw with

Geoffrey Howe. And more recently I

0:58:010:58:06

suppose the resignation of 92 Jeremy

Corbyn's front bench could be in

0:58:060:58:09

that category but that did not work.

But the final one which is the most

0:58:090:58:15

fun and frequent is the slow death

where a minister falls under Myers

0:58:150:58:22

of scandal and cannot stay afloat.

Briefly, Lord Bates resigned

0:58:220:58:25

recently, were you there when that

happens? And then he came back.

0:58:250:58:31

Resigning once and then people do

come back and revise their history.

0:58:310:58:35

Lord Bates did not manage to resign,

the Prime Minister thought he'd gone

0:58:350:58:40

that far. But people do get second

chance, Peter Mandelson and David

0:58:400:58:44

Blunkett came back. It looked to me

from the radio this morning that

0:58:440:58:49

Damian Green might be looking for a

comeback.

On that note we will end

0:58:490:58:53

the programme! Thank you very much

for coming and, the one o'clock News

0:58:530:58:58

is on BBC One now, for all of us,

thank you and goodbye.

0:58:580:59:00

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