Browse content similar to 22/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
The Prime Minister's country retreat
is the scene for a gathering | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
of Theresa May and some of her key
ministers today, | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
as they meet
to thrash out | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
a negotiating position on Brexit. | 0:00:53 | 0:01:00 | |
Net migration to the UK has
fallen but is still well | 0:01:00 | 0:01:05 | |
above the government's
target at 244,000. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:06 | |
We'll be looking at the detail. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
We know Michael Gove loves animals, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:10 | |
but which party is winning
the policy battle when it comes | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
to pets and animal welfare? | 0:01:13 | 0:01:14 | |
And text messages are old hat, | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
we'll be looking at the latest
must-have technology | 0:01:17 | 0:01:22 | |
for MPs who want to keep
their plots private! | 0:01:22 | 0:01:28 | |
All that in the next hour | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
and with us for the whole
of the programme today | 0:01:30 | 0:01:35 | |
is Faiza Shaheen. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
She's an economist, writer, | 0:01:38 | 0:01:39 | |
activist and director | 0:01:39 | 0:01:40 | |
of a think-tank called the Centre
for Labour and Social Studies. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
Welcome to the show. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:44 | |
First today. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:45 | |
The EU Exit and Trade
(Strategy and Negotiation) | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
sub-committee is the snappy
title(!) | 0:01:47 | 0:01:48 | |
for the meeting of Theresa May's
cabinet ministers today | 0:01:48 | 0:01:50 | |
to hammer out an agreed
approach to Brexit. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:56 | |
Key ministers who don't always see
eye-to-eye on the issue, | 0:01:56 | 0:02:01 | |
like Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
and Chancellor Philip Hammond, will | 0:02:01 | 0:02:07 | |
be closeted in the wood-panelled
Tudor splendour | 0:02:07 | 0:02:15 | |
of the Prime Minister's country
retreat of Chequers. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
And there's clearly
something in the air. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
Because we also hear this morning
that Jeremy Corbyn is planning | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
to set out Labour's new position
on Brexit at a speech | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
early next week. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:26 | |
Exciting times for people
like our assistant political | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
editor Norman Smith. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:30 | |
I am sure you would like to be a fly
on the wall but will Unity break out | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
at the end of this marathon summit?
It may not be peace in our time but | 0:02:34 | 0:02:38 | |
there will have to be in agreement,
the option of no deal is so | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
catastrophic for the government, is
it would suggest divisions are so | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
profound, that any sort of agreement
is beyond Theresa May, and the | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
message it would send out to EU
negotiators is frankly, we are all | 0:02:50 | 0:02:54 | |
over the place and have not a clue
what we want, so there must be some | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
sort of arrangement, over the past
few weeks, gradually, slowly, | 0:02:58 | 0:03:04 | |
incrementally, she has been seeking
to whittle away the areas of | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
disagreement, to refine and refined
those areas where ministers are | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
seemingly locked in conflict. That
said, I'm pretty sure that at the | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
end of the day, it is going to be a
deal that involves some fairly high | 0:03:16 | 0:03:21 | |
wire verbal gymnastics to keep all
parties on fold. The gap is the | 0:03:21 | 0:03:28 | |
schism that we have seen since the
referendum, those that believe the | 0:03:28 | 0:03:33 | |
absolute priority in negotiations
must be trade and securing continued | 0:03:33 | 0:03:37 | |
access to the single market, without
vast amounts of border controls and | 0:03:37 | 0:03:42 | |
tariffs. And those who have
prioritised sovereignty, taking back | 0:03:42 | 0:03:48 | |
control, giving ourselves the
freedom to straight a trade deal, | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
that tension still remains. There
will have to be some form of | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
language to try to bridge that.
Let's talk about the labour | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
position, we have been told there is
going to be a speech by Jeremy | 0:03:58 | 0:04:03 | |
Corbyn, how much can we expect in
terms of a new line, a | 0:04:03 | 0:04:09 | |
clarification, on Labour's position
regarding negotiations? Labour's | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
position is somewhat fluid is the
honest truth, and work in progress. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:19 | |
When you talk to Shadow Cabinet
members they all seem to be of the | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
view that gradually, slowly,
incrementally, the Labour Party is | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
heading off towards the land called
customs union, in other words, it | 0:04:26 | 0:04:29 | |
will end in a position where it will
back the customs union or a customs | 0:04:29 | 0:04:35 | |
union, the key difference between it
and the Conservative Party. They are | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
not there yet, key and and
influential figures like John | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
McDonnell do not like the idea, and
Jeremy Corbyn has not signed up on | 0:04:42 | 0:04:47 | |
the dotted line to that, but that is
the view that that is inevitably | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
where they will end up and why that
matters is, that is a position which | 0:04:51 | 0:04:57 | |
Tory Remainers could back, there is
plenty of Tory Remainers who think | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
it is daft of Theresa May to roll
out the option of a customs union | 0:05:01 | 0:05:07 | |
remaining in a customs union. --
rule out. If Labour backed a customs | 0:05:07 | 0:05:12 | |
union and Tory Remainers backed a
customs union, then Theresa May | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
could yet be defeated on the issue.
Thank you very much. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
We're joined now by two MPs
with rather different view | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
of life after Brexit, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
it's the Conservative Peter Bone | 0:05:27 | 0:05:32 | |
and Labour's Rupa Huq. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
Let's look at the fallout from the
transition debate and what will | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
happen to EU citizens, what do you
think will happen to the status of | 0:05:38 | 0:05:43 | |
EU citizens who arrived in Britain
after we have left in March, 2019. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:48 | |
Good morning. Good afternoon. 400
days until we leave this dreadful | 0:05:48 | 0:05:57 | |
European Union superstate. | 0:05:57 | 0:06:03 | |
We decided that anybody here before
the referendum has the right to | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
stay, and that we would have a new
immigration policy afterwards, now | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
it seems to transpire that it will
be people who arrived after the 29th | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
of March who will be subject to new
immigration policy which we have not | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
yet decided in Parliament what that
will be. Theresa May has said that | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
it will differ, rights of those will
differ but the EU has rejected that | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
and is asking for full rights for
any EU citizens who arrive after | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
March, 2019. Would you accept a
climb-down? A few things about the | 0:06:32 | 0:06:41 | |
referendum which we know work eat,
one of the top ones, ending free | 0:06:41 | 0:06:45 | |
movement, making our own laws in our
own countries, not giving billions | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
of pounds each year to the EU, if
any of those are broken, we have | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
lost faith in the British people. I
don't think that is the case, I | 0:06:52 | 0:06:57 | |
think the Prime Minister has said
there will be a registration scheme | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
and new arrangements will apply in
due course. During that transition | 0:07:00 | 0:07:04 | |
period, that is what we are talking
about, a government source is quoted | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
as saying, expect the UK to back
down on different rights for EU | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
citizens who arrive after March,
2019, in the face of resistance from | 0:07:11 | 0:07:16 | |
Brussels. Would you accept and
expect a climb-down from the | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
government for EU citizens during
that period? The government | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
spokesman... What has he said on the
record? A government source | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
quoted... Yes, and those things...
(!) would you accept a climb-down? | 0:07:29 | 0:07:35 | |
It is there then... They have voted
to end free movement. Yes we cannot | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
have free movement. The transition
deal is one thing, the Labour | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
position, what are you expecting
Jeremy Corbyn to say when he gives | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
his speech on Monday? I don't know
what will come from his mouth. There | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
will be a speech on Monday. A
transition period is responsible and | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
sensible, Labour called for that,
there has been a change overnight, | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
sneaked into the ministers red
boxes, now, the government wants a | 0:07:58 | 0:08:05 | |
different appearance... The EU has
rejected not only the freedom of | 0:08:05 | 0:08:10 | |
movement... The government is now
saying no changes to freedom of | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
movement, and they want 18 months.
The period of this transition is | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
changing. It shows how weak and
divided they are. The fact this away | 0:08:18 | 0:08:22 | |
day is happening at all is to bang
their heads together. On that basis, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:29 | |
what... What is Labour's position?
We are not fixated by an exact | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
number of months or time period but
we think it should be as long as | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
necessary, I think it should be as
long as necessary, businesses want | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
certainty. The customs union, should
Labour be saying clearly, Britain | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
has to stay part of a customs union
if not the customs union. We want | 0:08:44 | 0:08:49 | |
something that replicates the
benefits of a customs union, I would | 0:08:49 | 0:08:54 | |
like it to be the customs union, but
the leadership position is that we | 0:08:54 | 0:08:58 | |
want something that is the
benefits... Saying you want the | 0:08:58 | 0:09:03 | |
benefits of remaining part of some
sort of alignment with the EU is not | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
the same as saying we want to remain
and would negotiate to remain with a | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
customs union, John McDonnell has
said all options will be open. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
Cutting off our nose to spite our
face, these options are still on the | 0:09:14 | 0:09:19 | |
table... Yes, same with the single
market, we want to retain the | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
benefits of that. Retain the
benefits, would you like the Labour | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
leadership to say we should be part
of the single market? Personally, | 0:09:27 | 0:09:32 | |
yes, there are some technicalities
about whether we go down the EFTA | 0:09:32 | 0:09:39 | |
route or not, the minister replying
in the debate yesterday said that | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
they will not change course, they
will not consider alternatives even | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
if there was no deal, so they are
carrying on with this crazy position | 0:09:46 | 0:09:51 | |
that we have which is quite unclear.
You are close to the leadership, | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
would you like to hear Jeremy Corbyn
and John McDonnell state clearly on | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
Monday or at some point soon, that
Labour will back strain in the | 0:09:58 | 0:10:03 | |
single market and the customs union?
I think the place where we start on | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
this is what it means for people and
inequality between regions and jobs | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
and in that case, the customs union
makes a lot more sense. The single | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
market is tricky, we will not have a
seat at the table, there is a big | 0:10:16 | 0:10:22 | |
issue about people voting to have
more control. It is more of a tricky | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
issue but the customs union, in
terms of the impact on people's | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
lives, and I am glad that Jeremy
Corbyn has come out and said the | 0:10:30 | 0:10:34 | |
support of a customs union as well
but I think it is completely | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
practical and logical to think about
what is the end point, and that is | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
what the Labour leadership is doing
right now. You would not accept | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
Britain being part of a customs
union, with the European Union, but | 0:10:46 | 0:10:48 | |
to go back to that transition period
before we get back to the end state, | 0:10:48 | 0:10:53 | |
what did you make of the phase, --
phrase, transition will take as long | 0:10:53 | 0:10:58 | |
as it takes. We might like to call
it a period of implementation. How | 0:10:58 | 0:11:04 | |
long should it take? The Primus has
said that the implementation period | 0:11:04 | 0:11:09 | |
will be time limited but if it can
be shortened, so be it. If we can do | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
things earlier, and it suits us and
the European Union... If it goes | 0:11:12 | 0:11:18 | |
over two years? The Prime Minister
has said that it will be | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
time-limited. It could still be over
in a two-year period? I think it | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
will be the end of the budgetary
period, the end of 2020, which is | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
what the EU once, if we can do it
earlier, fine. If you were at | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
Chequers, what would you be saying
to the Prime Minister? I would be | 0:11:35 | 0:11:40 | |
congratulating them on what they are
doing and I would tell people to be | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
a little more upbeat and cheerful.
The Chancellor, for example, he's | 0:11:43 | 0:11:48 | |
such a dour, sort of fellow, trying
to get all of the figures right. He | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
should be much more upbeat and
saying, this is a great thing for | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
Britain, he coined the phrase, we
are all Brexiteers now. A little | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
more upbeat. If you think the Prime
Minister has done well, why hold a | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
summit? It is quite a good idea,
when you have cabinet government, to | 0:12:04 | 0:12:10 | |
involve the government(!) and get
agreement? And move things on. I | 0:12:10 | 0:12:15 | |
know that we are on the 21st
revision of the Labour Party policy, | 0:12:15 | 0:12:20 | |
you cannot even... We have been
clear! Credit to Jeremy Corbyn, he | 0:12:20 | 0:12:25 | |
has resisted those people that want
to try to rerun the referendum, the | 0:12:25 | 0:12:29 | |
situation is, what the government is
doing, all its timescales, made the | 0:12:29 | 0:12:34 | |
first agreement. Why the summit, if
it is all going so well, and if | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
there has been so much progress, why
is there a summit where ministers | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
will be locked in together all day
until...? It is going to go on late. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:48 | |
When you have a cabinet, you talk
about things, it might not be... Why | 0:12:48 | 0:12:55 | |
not at Chequers, nice house, give
them tea and Puffy, they will be | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
very happy. Will you be disappointed
if Jeremy Corbyn does not set out | 0:12:59 | 0:13:04 | |
how to stay in the customs market on
Monday, what will you do? -- give | 0:13:04 | 0:13:09 | |
them tea and coffee, they will be
very happy. At the moment, what we | 0:13:09 | 0:13:16 | |
have, we are not in government, we
have the worst of all worlds, if you | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
are leave, these arrangements have
been lengthened and lengthen, and we | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
were not really that much in the EU
in the first place, not in the | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
single currency, only 60% in. It is
the worst of all worlds, if you are | 0:13:27 | 0:13:34 | |
a remain, they have sold out the
European principles. What other | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
soundings you have had that there
will be a shift? They're already has | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
been a shift, we are opposing the EU
withdrawal bill, it gives carte | 0:13:41 | 0:13:46 | |
blanche, it is a rubbish piece of...
You are stopping EU laws being made | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
into British laws, to come into
effect immediately after we leave | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
the EU, trying to block the current
legislation from coming in, that was | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
an absurd position, did not make any
sense whatsoever. It was done by | 0:13:59 | 0:14:05 | |
you... Party political reasons. Let
her respond. Lord Carlile in the | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
Lords said, we are heading into the
non-impact assessment feature. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:17 | |
non-impact assessment feature. He
said that it is a suicide note, this | 0:14:17 | 0:14:21 | |
non-assessed impact future that we
are going into... The Labour Party | 0:14:21 | 0:14:28 | |
view is that this is a suicide note? | 0:14:28 | 0:14:33 | |
62 of your colleagues supported
this. Holding a gun to her head, the | 0:14:34 | 0:14:40 | |
whole country, disturbing that it
was the government's anti-corruption | 0:14:40 | 0:14:44 | |
champion who headed that up. Lord
Carlile is now a crossbencher. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:52 | |
Former Lib Dem... Just for
clarification. Thank you very much. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
The question for today
is all about reports that the group | 0:15:00 | 0:15:02 | |
messaging application WhatsApp
is falling out of a favour | 0:15:02 | 0:15:05 | |
among Conservative MPs
because their messages | 0:15:05 | 0:15:06 | |
are finding their way
into the papers. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
Heaven forbid. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:09 | |
So what are some of them said
to be using instead? | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
Is it a) Invisible ink? | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
b) A pager? | 0:15:14 | 0:15:19 | |
c) A "military-grade
encyrption" app called Confide? | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
Or d) passing messages to each
other in St James's Park? | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
At the end of the show Faiza
will attempt to give | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
us the correct answer. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:29 | |
The latest migration figures have
been published this morning - | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
as usual, they tell a number
of different stories | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
about the number of people coming
to and leaving the UK, | 0:15:33 | 0:15:36 | |
so let's look at some
of the numbers. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
This time last year,
net migration stood at 273,000. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:40 | |
Now, it's fallen to 244,000. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:46 | |
Now, it's fallen to 244,000. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:46 | |
But the decrease of 29,000
is classed by the ONS | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
as statistically insignificant. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:50 | |
Net migration from the EU
is currently at 90,000. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
And from outside
the EU, it's 205,000. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
A total of 52,000 British
nationals left the UK | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
in the year to September. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:05 | |
The new immigration statistics come
hot on the heels of a new release | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
showing a marked slowdown
in the final quarter | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
of 2017 in the growth of EU
nationals working in the UK. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
But the figure still grew
by 101,000, to total 2.35 million EU | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
nationals working here. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:25 | |
By the last quarter of 2017,
there was an absolute fall of 53,000 | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
in the number of working nationals
from the EU Eight countries, | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
like Poland, that joined in 2004. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:38 | |
And an absolute fall
of 68,000 non-UK and non-EU | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
nationals working here. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
Well, to dig into these numbers,
let's talk to the BBC's head | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
of statistics, Robert Cuffe. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
of statistics, Robert Cuffe. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
Thank you for joining us. Can you
explain how reliable these figures | 0:16:52 | 0:16:56 | |
are? They're based on a survey with
all of the uncertainties that it | 0:16:56 | 0:17:01 | |
includes. A migrant is somebody who
is going to stay in their new | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
country for at least a year and the
ONS ask people at random coming | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
through the airports and ports where
they come from, how long they plan | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
to start for and why they're coming.
So it is a survey, just like an | 0:17:12 | 0:17:16 | |
opinion poll, so there is a margin
of error, around us or -40,000 on | 0:17:16 | 0:17:21 | |
the headline figure. That is why the
degrees of 29,000 is not | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
statistically significant. There is
also a question of definition. A | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
migrant is someone who is going to
stay for a year. We ask them how | 0:17:28 | 0:17:33 | |
long they are planning to stay - and
plans change. The survey is checked | 0:17:33 | 0:17:38 | |
back against the census and national
insurance and visas and other | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
things. But it is still best not to
read too much into just one quarter | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
of data unless the number is really
striking or is consistent with a | 0:17:45 | 0:17:50 | |
pattern we have seen over while.
That basis, what Amir Khan we read | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
into it? Well, there is no real
change in the headline figure, but | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
that is masking something more
interesting underneath. What we are | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
seeing is a different picture for EU
migrants and non-EU migrants. For EU | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
migrants since the Brexit referendum
we have seen a decline which is | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
continuing apace. It is down from
about 106 to 5000 to 95,000 net last | 0:18:10 | 0:18:16 | |
year. And that is statistically
significant. That is being slightly | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
masked by an increase in non-EU
migration, which is up by about | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
40000 and if you add them together
they cancel each other out a little | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
bit. But there is different things
going on for each of them. It is a | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
consistent pattern overtime for EU
migration but for non-EU, the ONS | 0:18:32 | 0:18:37 | |
say it came down a little bit last
year to do with rebel studying at | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
not being scrubbed up in the visas,
and is now back up to the level it | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
was at before, so it is hard to know
whether that is going to be a trend | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
into the future. Thank you very
much. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
We're joined now by Alp Mehmet,
the vice-chair of Migration Watch | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
UK, and of course my guest
of the day, Faiza | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
Shaheen is still here. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:58 | |
Her think-tank have just published a
report arguing Britain is an | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
overworked and underpaid nation.
This country has added a population | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
almost the size of a city of the
size of Southampton last year - is | 0:19:05 | 0:19:10 | |
that a problem? It is really hard
for me to get involved in this about | 0:19:10 | 0:19:15 | |
the mum numbers because I think
there is a broader issue here of | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
immigration and immigrants being
scapegoated year after year for a | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
number of problems. We often hear
issues of wages blamed on | 0:19:21 | 0:19:27 | |
immigration, issues of housing...
And the truth is it has been bad | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
government policy and more employer
exportation of workers. But do the | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
numbers matter, are they not
important, if you are a government | 0:19:35 | 0:19:38 | |
or even if you are a member of the
voting public, you want to see the | 0:19:38 | 0:19:42 | |
figures of what is going up and what
is coming down? We have made the | 0:19:42 | 0:19:46 | |
numbers matter because we have told
people for so long that this is the | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
crown as to... If you stop
immigration, then other problems | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
will get sorted. So we have told
people they matter so we fixate on | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
them, so that is no surprise. It is
actually, attracting talent to this | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
country is possibly the sign of an
economy which is inviting people. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
But the end point here is, we need
people in certain sectors. We have a | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
history in this country of both, and
it's looking in that historical | 0:20:09 | 0:20:14 | |
context. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:20 | |
context. There has been too much
focus on the numbers and the | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
government has made it that way in
order to fit a political narrative - | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
should they be more focus on fixing
the problems of increasing | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
population numbers as a result of
immigration? I would argue that | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
there hasn't been sufficient focus,
frankly. You can't ignore the | 0:20:33 | 0:20:39 | |
figures, a quarter of a million net,
which has come down from over | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
300,000. It is what that adds over a
period to population, an increasing | 0:20:42 | 0:20:51 | |
population at the present rate,
we're talking about another 10 | 0:20:51 | 0:20:53 | |
million people in 25 years, 90% of
which will be the result of | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
immigration. You cannot go on that
way. Going back to the figures with | 0:20:57 | 0:21:04 | |
regard to EU nationals coming here
to work, yes, the scale has come | 0:21:04 | 0:21:08 | |
down, but there are still many more
arriving than are leaving. And in | 0:21:08 | 0:21:13 | |
fact, if you look at the numbers who
were given national insurance cards | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
last year, of half a million, the
fall is really where they have come | 0:21:18 | 0:21:23 | |
to look for work rather than come
for work. And you want to turn | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
hundreds of thousands of them away?
I don't want to turn anyone away who | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
has not a right to be here, or
indeed doesn't qualify to come here. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
I am not about closing the doors and
the gates and pulling up the | 0:21:34 | 0:21:39 | |
drawbridge. But you want the numbers
to come down by hundreds of | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
thousands? We want reasonable...
Even coming down by 100,000 we're | 0:21:42 | 0:21:48 | |
still way above where we were 15-20
years ago. If you look at the net | 0:21:48 | 0:21:53 | |
migration figure from the new, of
90,000, the latest one, that's | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
actually double - double - what it
was in 1997 overall. Do you agree | 0:21:57 | 0:22:04 | |
with Diane Abbott that immigration,
and the debate around immigration, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
she says, is still being used as a
euphemism for race? No, no,, no. She | 0:22:07 | 0:22:12 | |
is wrong now and she has always been
wrong. Why? People like me, people | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
who take heart in your programme
daily, we're either first, second or | 0:22:18 | 0:22:26 | |
third generation immigrants.
Immigration will not stop. It is not | 0:22:26 | 0:22:31 | |
racist to be concerned about the
rate of migration. That is not what | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
she was saying, though. I think the
point is that too often, the way in | 0:22:35 | 0:22:40 | |
which these immigration debates...
And we hear it, scaremongering, | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
these people are coming for abroad,
often these people are cooking and | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
cleaning and caring for our parents.
No-one is saying that, you are | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
saying that! That is what we hear
just how would you explain, then, | 0:22:51 | 0:22:57 | |
around the Brexit campaign and
afterwards the uptake in the number | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
of xenophobic racist attacks, for
instance. But there is not | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
necessarily the evidence to back
that up? Actually there is a lot of | 0:23:03 | 0:23:07 | |
evidence... Is disputed. But what I
would say... There is no evidence at | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
all, actually. The evidence about
that is disputed. Are you choosing a | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
political narrative that fits a
policy, you agree with Diane Abbott | 0:23:15 | 0:23:21 | |
that immigration is a good thing for
this country and should continue at | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
the levels that we have now? She
said yesterday that in some | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
political quarters, it is used,
concern about immigration, as a | 0:23:28 | 0:23:32 | |
euphemism for race - do you agree
with that? Yeah, sometimes I think | 0:23:32 | 0:23:37 | |
some people, not all people, use it
as a way, the Nigel Farages of the | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
world, as a way to play in and get
to people's prejudices and to stoke | 0:23:42 | 0:23:47 | |
that up. And that is not OK. The
conversation we should be having is, | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
given that we have shortages in some
areas, given them a graphic changes, | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
an ageing population, is how the
demographic is of our society will | 0:23:55 | 0:23:59 | |
change and how they have changed up
to today and the positives of that, | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
a multicultural society and
something which reflects the Empire. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
Because the reason that people like
me are here because of those | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
historic links. So, this is not a
conversation about being precise | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
about this number or that number of
that think about what this country | 0:24:13 | 0:24:18 | |
needs, and work from that. That is
exactly what we're saying just what | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
we are also saying, though, not at
the present scale, that is not in | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
any one's interest. And I have to
say that what Diane Abbott is saying | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
is a device that has been used all
along to close down debate on | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
immigration. And that cannot happen.
I mean, are you thinking about, for | 0:24:34 | 0:24:39 | |
instance, and I have done research
on this, the ways in which Eastern | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
European immigration was exploited
by employers who would play them off | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
amongst the existing population -
that was not the fault of the Polish | 0:24:46 | 0:24:51 | |
people coming in, that was how
temping agencies were using this | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
device. So, what can we do about
employers, agencies, allowing this | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
exportation to happen? When the
Romanians and Bulgarians were going | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
to have free access to our
employment market, that we were told | 0:25:02 | 0:25:06 | |
would be a small number coming in,
as we were in 2003. In fact, we | 0:25:06 | 0:25:14 | |
forecast around 50,000, which is
exactly what it is at the moment. | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
You cannot say it's not going to
happen, not plan on it and then when | 0:25:16 | 0:25:23 | |
it does happen... Of course. And
then say, oh, but it is a good | 0:25:23 | 0:25:27 | |
thing. Looking at the scale, you say
that immigration can't continue at | 0:25:27 | 0:25:32 | |
the scale it has been at, but what
do you say about the figures? They | 0:25:32 | 0:25:36 | |
are mixed I accept about the number
of nurses and health workers from | 0:25:36 | 0:25:40 | |
the EU, they have fallen - are those
not people that we need? There are | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
also have people that we need,
including nurses, and there is no | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
reason why they should not continue
to come. But the number is falling | 0:25:47 | 0:25:52 | |
the number of EU nurses and health
workers? Not because anybody is | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
sending them away. You were talking
about whether we need immigration - | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
do we need that number of nurses? We
should also be thinking about | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
training our own nurses and doctors
in a way that we haven't done. Is it | 0:26:03 | 0:26:09 | |
prejudice, Faiza, to want any
restriction on immigration? No, we | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
are not in a situation where we can
suddenly have open borders, given | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
the inequality in the world more
people would come here, and we have | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
to manage that. But my point is that
we fixate on a particular part of | 0:26:20 | 0:26:25 | |
the equation, the evidence shows
that the reasons why wages have been | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
driven down in some sectors, why we
have issues of housing, immigration | 0:26:28 | 0:26:32 | |
is not the number one reason for
that. And even people doing the | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
research at the OECD or the World
Bank will tell you that again and | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
again. Migration plays far more into
that then we have been given to | 0:26:39 | 0:26:44 | |
believe. No, it is the lack of
building houses. That has been | 0:26:44 | 0:26:49 | |
successive governments. How do
governments plan for large numbers | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
of people which you can't predict
necessarily coming to Britain to | 0:26:52 | 0:26:56 | |
work, how could you build all of the
schools and hospitals in time for | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
waves of immigration? I agree that
they didn't expect so many people to | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
come after access they planned for
that quite badly. And then they made | 0:27:03 | 0:27:09 | |
the migration impact fund, which was
the right thing to do to help those | 0:27:09 | 0:27:11 | |
communities. We know that people
were coming and paying in quite a | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
lot in taxes but the communities
were not ready with the schools etc. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
But that impact fund was cut by the
Conservative government, and that is | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
exactly the sort of thing that we
need to do. But over time, even if | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
we leave the EU, when we make trade
deals with China and India at such | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
a, we're still going to have
immigration. No impact fund would | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
ever be sufficient to cater for the
sort of numbers that are coming in | 0:27:31 | 0:27:36 | |
at the moment. Briefly, do you think
there has been a Brexodus since that | 0:27:36 | 0:27:44 | |
vote? That is one thing which very
clearly HASN'T happened. Some have | 0:27:44 | 0:27:48 | |
left but that was always happening
anyway. When you look at the | 0:27:48 | 0:27:53 | |
figures, more in fact are arriving
than are leaving. If you look at | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
those who are applying for British
citizenship, at the moment it is | 0:27:57 | 0:28:02 | |
something like 45,005 and 50,000
applying last year, so clearly | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
there's a lot of people who don't
want to leave. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:10 | |
As you're a viewer of this show,
you're probably very observant, | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
so you might have noticed in recent
months that the political parties | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
have been talking quite a bit
about animal welfare. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:18 | |
So, is there a pattern to these
pet-focused policies? | 0:28:18 | 0:28:20 | |
Here's Ellie Price with her guide. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
There's a new turf war happening
in British politics, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
and it's furry and cute. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:25 | |
The Tories have been talking about | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
this sort of thing rather a lot
since the election, looking at | 0:28:27 | 0:28:30 | |
whether a ban on third-party puppy
sales would be a good idea. | 0:28:30 | 0:28:32 | |
Meaning you could get
a dog directly from a | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
breeder or a dogs' home,
but not from a pet shop. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
The party also announced tougher
sentences on those who | 0:28:38 | 0:28:40 | |
abuse animals... | 0:28:40 | 0:28:42 | |
As well as cameras in
every UK slaughterhouse. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
And a new bill to ensure that | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
animal sentience -
the idea that animals feel | 0:28:47 | 0:28:53 | |
pain and suffering -
is considered in all | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
include wild animals. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
areas of domestic policy, and does
include wild animals. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
Labour was accused of playing
catch-up last week when it | 0:28:59 | 0:29:01 | |
announced 50 policies
it hoped would appeal | 0:29:01 | 0:29:03 | |
announced 50 policies it hoped
would appeal to people | 0:29:03 | 0:29:05 | |
who owned cats and dogs,
but not necessarily | 0:29:05 | 0:29:07 | |
their own home. | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
The party would look at plans
to allow tenants to keep pets | 0:29:09 | 0:29:11 | |
in rented accommodation as a given, | 0:29:11 | 0:29:13 | |
unless landlords said there was | 0:29:13 | 0:29:14 | |
evidence that the animal
is causing a nuisance, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
and that might include
some care homes, too. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:18 | |
It would also look | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
at ways of helping people on low
incomes with vet bills, and require | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
motorists to report an accident
where an animal had been injured. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:26 | |
Oh, and one more thing
that could hit some | 0:29:26 | 0:29:28 | |
voters in the stomach -
a total ban on foie gras. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:31 | |
Both parties have a raft
of other measures dealing | 0:29:31 | 0:29:34 | |
with wild and farm animals
that our furry and feathered | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
friends might be very | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
grateful for - who said dog whistle
politics was a bad thing? | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
DOGS BARK | 0:29:42 | 0:29:50 | |
Boom boom! | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
We're joined now by
the Conservative MP David Amess, | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
he has a long track record
of campaigning on animal welfare. | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
And Luke Pollard, who is part
of Labour's shadow environment team. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:04 | |
George Orwell wrote a whole book
about when animals get involved with | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
socialism(!) | 0:30:07 | 0:30:07 | |
about when animals get involved with
socialism(!). Did not end well. It | 0:30:07 | 0:30:09 | |
can do if politicians make the right
choice, my postbag is full of animal | 0:30:09 | 0:30:14 | |
welfare, it is right that we have
combines a policy that looks at the | 0:30:14 | 0:30:18 | |
full range of animal welfare
concerns raised by members of the | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
public, that is what we are
consulting on at the moment. Is this | 0:30:21 | 0:30:25 | |
vision of Jeremy Corbyn for cats, if
we could call it that, free | 0:30:25 | 0:30:30 | |
veterinary care for the poor, is it
kind of a feline NHS? It is about | 0:30:30 | 0:30:37 | |
recognising there is an awful lot of
people that cannot afford basic pet | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
care, that is leading to animal
suffering. -- Corbynism for cats. We | 0:30:40 | 0:30:48 | |
are trying to find out what can be
done to make it more affordable, pet | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
care, especially those on low
income, so that we do not see animal | 0:30:52 | 0:30:56 | |
suffering baked into society. Should
the Conservatives support this? I | 0:30:56 | 0:31:00 | |
celebrate that after 35 years, at
long last, parliamentarians are | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
genuinely interested in animal
welfare. Were they not interested | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
before? Not consistently, it was a
small group of people, now, I am | 0:31:07 | 0:31:12 | |
very glad that we are focusing, not
just turning up for photo | 0:31:12 | 0:31:16 | |
opportunities. There has been a
Damascene conversion... Is that | 0:31:16 | 0:31:21 | |
because Labour has been setting the
agenda? For 13 years, Tony Blair who | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
took the money from the animal
welfare organisations in 1997, he | 0:31:25 | 0:31:31 | |
promised an animal commission, a
Royal commission, he promised so | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
much, the only thing I reckon he
ever did, in his life, was banned | 0:31:34 | 0:31:41 | |
fox hunting. So it is you who has
been playing catch up? Labour has | 0:31:41 | 0:31:46 | |
been the party of animal welfare
since... Come on! Look at what has | 0:31:46 | 0:31:51 | |
happened since the election, last
eight years, we have seen headlines | 0:31:51 | 0:31:56 | |
but no consistency since the
election, is publishing a full, | 0:31:56 | 0:32:00 | |
comprehensive animal... That is not
true. We published it on the Labour | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
Party website and had 1600... When
was it published? Think of February, | 0:32:04 | 0:32:09 | |
last week... The Conservatives say
they have been doing this since the | 0:32:09 | 0:32:14 | |
election, they may have... They have
been killing badgers. Come on, | 0:32:14 | 0:32:18 | |
badger culling, come on. INAUDIBLE
Micro bees have been banned, ivory | 0:32:18 | 0:32:23 | |
has been banned. We are doing
something about puppy farming, and | 0:32:23 | 0:32:30 | |
the Labour Party are catching up and
because they do not want to leave | 0:32:30 | 0:32:33 | |
the European Union they are not
going to be able to do all the | 0:32:33 | 0:32:36 | |
things they are telling people. --
microbeads. What about the badger | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
cull, can you ever be a
compassionate Tory party when it | 0:32:39 | 0:32:42 | |
comes to animal welfare if you
continue with this? I'm not in | 0:32:42 | 0:32:47 | |
favour of the Carl, Lorraine Platt,
Conservative animal welfare | 0:32:47 | 0:32:51 | |
foundation, she has actually been
changed perceptions in general. -- | 0:32:51 | 0:32:59 | |
badger cull. The right to own a pet
in rented property, is that about | 0:32:59 | 0:33:07 | |
falling home ownership or something
more it is a recognition, it is | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
harder and harder to buy homes, that
ownership is reserved for those that | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
can afford their own home and so
what we have said is that we will | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
work with accommodation providers,
and look at under what circumstances | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
there can be a pet accommodation, if
damage is done it should be paid by | 0:33:22 | 0:33:28 | |
the tenant. How have landlords
reacted? And awful lot of landlords | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
want pets in their accommodation.
Have you had any response from | 0:33:32 | 0:33:37 | |
landlords? Landlords Association?
Correspondence are in favour and | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
against, they have said all these
things, I think, when Michael Gove | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
gets in trouble, new Nancy 's animal
welfare policy, to make the | 0:33:45 | 0:33:50 | |
headlines. We have published this to
ask for opinions. -- he announces | 0:33:50 | 0:33:56 | |
animal welfare policy. We will have
a good cross-party consensus about | 0:33:56 | 0:33:59 | |
animal welfare... Michael Gove does
not have to promise anything, he is | 0:33:59 | 0:34:05 | |
a Secretary of State who is
delivering and if the Labour Party | 0:34:05 | 0:34:08 | |
is genuine about animal welfare,
they should not partisan reasons | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
oppose everything he does, they
should get behind him. It is | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
fantastic what he is doing, after 35
years, I am glad that the House of | 0:34:14 | 0:34:19 | |
Commons is focused on this, we
should not be partisan about animal | 0:34:19 | 0:34:23 | |
welfare, for goodness sakes, many
people out there, animals are | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
everything, animals are faithful,
and they ask for nothing, other than | 0:34:27 | 0:34:32 | |
a bit of love. Would you support
tenants rights to own pets? I very | 0:34:32 | 0:34:38 | |
much supports tenants owning pets,
we can all think of examples where | 0:34:38 | 0:34:43 | |
someone moves out of property and
cannot take their dog with them, for | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
people on their own, animals are
everything. Do you think that is the | 0:34:47 | 0:34:52 | |
case, action on lobsters, Foy Gras,
fur farming, the rearing of game | 0:34:52 | 0:34:56 | |
birds, do you think that is all a
bit class war? -- Foie gras. We are | 0:34:56 | 0:35:04 | |
an animal loving nation, it makes
sense, the thing is, the main thing | 0:35:04 | 0:35:08 | |
that we take from the Conservative
Party, because of the manifesto last | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
year, is that they were going to
potentially bring back fox hunting, | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
and that is the big thing people are
hearing right now, it is | 0:35:15 | 0:35:19 | |
interesting. Huge mistake, and over
60 of my colleagues would have | 0:35:19 | 0:35:25 | |
opposed it. So it was a mistake to
make it part of the manifesto? | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
Absolutely. Talk about class war,
that sent a big signal. What about | 0:35:29 | 0:35:36 | |
the pet passport with Brexit? That
is one of the uncertainties, we | 0:35:36 | 0:35:40 | |
simply do not know at the moment.
What you think should happen to the | 0:35:40 | 0:35:46 | |
pet passport? I think it has been
incredible, allowing people to be | 0:35:46 | 0:35:51 | |
able to take their pets and animals
over borders, something we should | 0:35:51 | 0:35:53 | |
look at keeping but actually, quite
a lot of the detail that matters | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
around animal welfare, pushed over
by this government, we need to get | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
into the detail. Tell us about
animal centres, in what way do the | 0:36:00 | 0:36:08 | |
Conservatives say they did not
recognise it? They did not want to | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
include it in the EU withdrawal
bill, cross-party levels of support | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
for including animal sensor in the
withdrawal bill, hastily published | 0:36:15 | 0:36:19 | |
animal sentence bill has been
criticised by the rural affairs | 0:36:19 | 0:36:24 | |
committee, which is led itself by an
MP. We need long-term comprehends it | 0:36:24 | 0:36:32 | |
policy. -- animal sentience. That is
why Tony Blair supported animal | 0:36:32 | 0:36:39 | |
testing when he was Prime Minister,
as far as animals healing pain, of | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
course they feel pain, but it was a
Labour trick to amend a bit of | 0:36:43 | 0:36:50 | |
legislation to make this stick you
need primary legislation and that is | 0:36:50 | 0:36:53 | |
what the Conservatives are going to
do, primary legislation. Was that | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
entire sentience debate clumsily
handled? I don't want to attack the | 0:36:57 | 0:37:04 | |
colleague who dealt with it at the
time, perhaps he was not feeling | 0:37:04 | 0:37:08 | |
right, in hindsight, we made it
crystal clear that we need primary | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
legislation and that is what we are
going to get. Does Labour look as if | 0:37:11 | 0:37:16 | |
it is using animal rights for
political capital? Animal welfare is | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
an issue that all members of
Parliament are concerned about to an | 0:37:20 | 0:37:23 | |
certain extent. You brought it out
only in February. We have created | 0:37:23 | 0:37:27 | |
together the policy, and published
more policy for publication, this | 0:37:27 | 0:37:32 | |
can range of approaches one that all
parties should adopt, I hope the | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
Conservatives will cut and paste, we
want to see a comprehensive... | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
Because the Conservatives now are
truly seen as a party representing | 0:37:39 | 0:37:45 | |
animal welfare. Well... I like the
idea of cutting and pasting each | 0:37:45 | 0:37:49 | |
other's policies! LAUGHTER
Thank you very much for coming in. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:57 | |
Before working for the Class
think-thank, our guest of the day | 0:37:58 | 0:38:02 | |
Faiza Shaheen used to work
for Save the Children, | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
which is in the headlines
at the moment following complaints | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
of inappropriate behaviour
by their senior executives | 0:38:07 | 0:38:08 | |
Justin Forsyth and Brendan Cox. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:09 | |
Save the Children has said it had
commissioned a "root and branch | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
review of the organisational
culture" of the charity. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:14 | |
An investigation by Radio 4's PM
programme makes uncomfortable | 0:38:14 | 0:38:16 | |
reading for the organisation. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:17 | |
One woman said... | 0:38:17 | 0:38:18 | |
"You start to hear
rumours about some | 0:38:18 | 0:38:20 | |
of the directors, but of course
until it happens to you, | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
which it did, you don't
really appreciate how hard | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
it is to deal with." | 0:38:25 | 0:38:27 | |
Another former employee
told the programme... | 0:38:27 | 0:38:28 | |
"The centre of this
crisis was not in Haiti or Chad. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
It was in London. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:32 | |
Young professional women
at Save the Children felt unsafe. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
They felt that their careers | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
could depend on ensuring
they responded | 0:38:36 | 0:38:37 | |
to unwanted attention
and to bullying." | 0:38:37 | 0:38:45 | |
You worked at Save the Children at
the same time as Brendan Cox and | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
Justin Forsett, what was your
spirits? Definitely a sense that a | 0:38:51 | 0:38:56 | |
lot of people knew about these
rumours and for the most part knew | 0:38:56 | 0:39:01 | |
them to be true, it was a majority
of women working there, and it did | 0:39:01 | 0:39:07 | |
feel like there was predatory
behaviour about, and you had to keep | 0:39:07 | 0:39:15 | |
safe, certainly. Justin Forsyth has
admitted that he made some personal | 0:39:15 | 0:39:19 | |
mistakes during his time at Save the
Children, Brendan Cox has said that | 0:39:19 | 0:39:25 | |
his behaviour was inappropriate, is
that enough, do you think? There is | 0:39:25 | 0:39:29 | |
a real sense from the longer
statements, we know it was | 0:39:29 | 0:39:35 | |
inappropriate, but the truth is, for
a lot of people, so many | 0:39:35 | 0:39:39 | |
conversations, day after day with
people about this scandal, that was | 0:39:39 | 0:39:44 | |
happening under our very eyes, and
it was incredibly uncomfortable and | 0:39:44 | 0:39:49 | |
I think it made a lot of women feel
unsafe, not just those that were | 0:39:49 | 0:39:54 | |
directly assaulted. But all of us.
And I think, at least most of us, | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
and I think that culture, is
something very difficult to push up | 0:39:59 | 0:40:04 | |
against both because there was a
sense of collusion at the top, | 0:40:04 | 0:40:07 | |
protection, sometimes, and also
because Save the Children do amazing | 0:40:07 | 0:40:12 | |
work and there is great people
working for them, you don't want to | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
go against that good work, there was
a cultural problem. As you say, it | 0:40:15 | 0:40:22 | |
is difficult because they are doing
this fantastic work, as | 0:40:22 | 0:40:26 | |
organisations, but does that mean
that those two people in question, | 0:40:26 | 0:40:30 | |
Brendan Cox and Justin Forsyth, have
done enough to actually try and | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
explain and apologise for the
behaviour that they carried out at | 0:40:34 | 0:40:40 | |
the time? Look, I mean, they are
saying that now, it is a particular | 0:40:40 | 0:40:44 | |
time when people are coming out and
making these statements, hard to | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
know how genuine that is. After
Brendan left, we still all of us | 0:40:48 | 0:40:53 | |
still got an e-mail, even though we
should not have, and it is still | 0:40:53 | 0:40:57 | |
inappropriate things that happened
after he left. Which made me feel | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
like there was not a sense that this
was really wrong and I understand | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
and people understand when they have
abused their power. This is not just | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
Save the Children, we have been
speaking about this across several | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
sectors. There is a cultural
problem, I don't think, it was not | 0:41:12 | 0:41:18 | |
just misogyny or issues of abuse of
power, there is also race, I | 0:41:18 | 0:41:22 | |
constantly would be in ruins about
global campaigns and nobody from the | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
global South in that room and it
made me feel uncomfortable, heads of | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
offices in many different countries,
headed by white men, when there is | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
very talented local people that
could do the job. I support foreign | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
aid and Save the Children but it is
a really important time now to look | 0:41:38 | 0:41:43 | |
long and hard at the number of
practices that are happening and the | 0:41:43 | 0:41:47 | |
culture in those places. Do you
think there is a crisis in the | 0:41:47 | 0:41:50 | |
sector as a whole? I cannot speak
across the sector because I worked | 0:41:50 | 0:41:54 | |
only for Save the Children, to be
honest, it was not a great time, I | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
left after 17 months. I felt like
there was a crisis that had happened | 0:41:59 | 0:42:07 | |
and by moving on those people, those
people leaving, they thought that | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
was the end of it. I definitely
think that this is in a port in time | 0:42:10 | 0:42:15 | |
for the development sector to come
together and change their ways. That | 0:42:15 | 0:42:20 | |
may mean a change in the number of
people at the top because it is hard | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
for individuals to change behaviour.
Brendan Cox has checked -- Brendan | 0:42:24 | 0:42:30 | |
Cox has stepped back from his
charitable work, some female Labour | 0:42:30 | 0:42:33 | |
MPs have said it was the right thing
to do and showed he was willing to | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
face the things he is meant to have
done, do you think that was a strong | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
enough criticism of Brendan Cox, or,
fair enough, it is as Jess Phillips | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
says, they are friends. I have not
spoken to Brendan for a long time, I | 0:42:45 | 0:42:49 | |
don't know how much of this was
forced, all this information was | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
coming out, this was not right, and
I need to step back, because I don't | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
want to sully the name of those
great in the juicing is. Set up in | 0:42:57 | 0:43:03 | |
Jo Cox's name. -- those great
institutions. We do not want to put | 0:43:03 | 0:43:10 | |
women from speaking, it was
atrocious what happened to Jo Cox | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
that is not a free pass from Rafael
anyone else to abuse their power and | 0:43:12 | 0:43:19 | |
assault women, that is never OK, we
have to be strong on that. Brendan | 0:43:19 | 0:43:24 | |
Cox has denied any kind of sexual
assault, he said the behaviour was | 0:43:24 | 0:43:28 | |
inappropriate, let's leave it there. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:30 | |
Some important economic figures
were published yesterday, | 0:43:34 | 0:43:35 | |
they showed an unexpected rise
in unemployment, but also a rise | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
in average weekly earnings and signs
that productivity growth | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
is also increasing. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:41 | |
The government has talked a lot
about Britain's historically | 0:43:41 | 0:43:43 | |
low unemployment rate,
and Chancellor Phillip Hammond said | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
this was more evidence
that it is succeeding in creating | 0:43:45 | 0:43:47 | |
"an economy fit for the future". | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
That wasn't the view of shadow
chancellor John McDonnell, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:51 | |
who has been speaking about living
standards this morning. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:57 | |
Working people and those on low
and middle incomes especially | 0:43:58 | 0:44:02 | |
have suffered the worst decade
for living standards | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
for generations, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:10 | |
perhaps as far back
as the Napoleonic wars. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
And the prognosis for the future is,
well, is similarly bleak, with at | 0:44:12 | 0:44:15 | |
best, marginal recovery, but for
many, stagnating living standards. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
That was John McDonnell, | 0:44:19 | 0:44:20 | |
who has also endorsed a report
by the think-tank Class, | 0:44:20 | 0:44:22 | |
led by my guest of
the day, Faiza Shaheen. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:24 | |
It says that despite record
employment, many British | 0:44:24 | 0:44:26 | |
workers are "overworked,
underpaid, stressed and beset | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
with job insecurity
and wage stagnation". | 0:44:28 | 0:44:29 | |
It's conducted a survey of 2,000
people and says 80% of them | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
expect to be poorer over
the coming year. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
Well, to discuss this,
we're joined by the Conservative MP | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
Kwasi Kwarteng, he's an aide
to the chancellor Philip Hammond. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:45 | |
Take us through your survey and the
figures, 80% expect to be poorer, | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
does not mean that they will be.
There is something very important | 0:44:53 | 0:44:59 | |
about how workers feel and feel for
the economy and if it is working for | 0:44:59 | 0:45:01 | |
them, if after ten years of
historically poor wage growth, they | 0:45:01 | 0:45:05 | |
still don't think they will get an
above inflation pay rise, that tells | 0:45:05 | 0:45:10 | |
us something about their
insecurities, how much they might go | 0:45:10 | 0:45:14 | |
out and spend. Other statistics that
stood out for me, three in four | 0:45:14 | 0:45:18 | |
people do not feel the economy works
for them, 20% taking on a second | 0:45:18 | 0:45:23 | |
job, another 20% have considered it.
This is really... Lots of signs that | 0:45:23 | 0:45:30 | |
people are finding our labour market
incredibly precarious and perilous. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:40 | |
But finding it powerless is not the
same as saying they will definitely | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
be worse off in 12 months' time - do
you think you have misrepresented | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
the results by talking about how
people are feeling and confusing it | 0:45:48 | 0:45:53 | |
with what will actually happen? No.
It is only right that the 31 million | 0:45:53 | 0:45:59 | |
workers, or 32 million, we have a
temper Jipcho on what they feel is | 0:45:59 | 0:46:05 | |
working for them, and we should be
listening. The job figures speak for | 0:46:05 | 0:46:07 | |
themselves in terms of the numbers,
although there has been this rise in | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
unemployment for the first time in
many years. Do you accept that when | 0:46:11 | 0:46:16 | |
it comes to wages, if real incomes
are falling - and they have been | 0:46:16 | 0:46:22 | |
stagnating for ten years - people
feel worse off, they ARE worse off?! | 0:46:22 | 0:46:29 | |
I would accept that but there is a
context of. We have record people in | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
employment, I think the work you do
is commendable and the concerns of | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
people need to be addressed. The
Prime Minister herself, when she | 0:46:37 | 0:46:40 | |
became Prime Minister, mentioned the
fact about precariousness in | 0:46:40 | 0:46:46 | |
employment was an issue and there
was the Taylor review to look at | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
these sort of issues. But let's not
lose sight of some of the data. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
We've had a national living rage
introduced for the first time in | 0:46:53 | 0:46:58 | |
2016 at £7 20, I believe. --
national living rage death that has | 0:46:58 | 0:47:03 | |
now increased by about 9%. We have
got record numbers of people in | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
employment, when any people
predicted that there would be a rash | 0:47:06 | 0:47:13 | |
of unemployment and unemployment
would spike. Thankfully that hasn't | 0:47:13 | 0:47:15 | |
happened. Rebel mentioned zero-hours
contracts, you haven't but people | 0:47:15 | 0:47:20 | |
do, but 2.8% of the workforce has
zero-hours contracts are, so that is | 0:47:20 | 0:47:26 | |
not something which is universally
felt across the piece. So, while it | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
is there enough for your think-tank
to look at some of the difficulties, | 0:47:29 | 0:47:33 | |
I think there is an overarching
story of considerable success in | 0:47:33 | 0:47:37 | |
this area. Do you accept some of the
successful data? No, I think a lot | 0:47:37 | 0:47:42 | |
of that data clouds what's really
happening. The headline employment | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
figures completely do not capture
the hardship that people face day to | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
day and the levels of stress. We
spoke to someone that told us about | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
half of mental health workers
themselves feeling that they've got | 0:47:53 | 0:47:58 | |
mental health problems and feeling
like failures. That's very serious, | 0:47:58 | 0:48:00 | |
it's a sign that the economy is not
working, we are not putting people | 0:48:00 | 0:48:04 | |
and our people's health first. What
would you do? Look, there's a number | 0:48:04 | 0:48:08 | |
of things we can do. Essentially it
is the minimum wages still, they | 0:48:08 | 0:48:13 | |
called it the national living rage,
but we need a real living rage | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
commission that actually does speak
to people's real costs. And we know | 0:48:16 | 0:48:22 | |
that people are in huge amount of
debt, they're finding it very hard | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
to make ends meet. And we need to do
something ultimately about power. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
This is not something which has just
happened in the last few years since | 0:48:28 | 0:48:32 | |
Brexit or under the Conservatives,
this is a long-term thing, we've | 0:48:32 | 0:48:36 | |
seen workers having less power, less
say in the workplace and less | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
ability to barter with their bosses.
We need to do something to have | 0:48:39 | 0:48:43 | |
higher levels of collective
bargaining again. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:54 | |
bargaining again. And when we look
at countries that do have better | 0:48:54 | 0:48:55 | |
workplace environments, higher
wages, they are places which have | 0:48:55 | 0:48:57 | |
stronger trade unions and stronger
collective-bargaining, that is the | 0:48:57 | 0:48:58 | |
truth of it. Let's go back to that
stress which is felt by people | 0:48:58 | 0:49:01 | |
thinking they just cannot afford to
make ends meet - how is the | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
government going to address the fact
that although wages have risen just | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
recently, they are still not keeping
pace with inflation, inflation is | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
not coming down at the moment. It
may come down in a year or two - | 0:49:09 | 0:49:14 | |
what are people supposed to do in
between? I think what we are trying | 0:49:14 | 0:49:17 | |
to do in the medium term is to look
at productivity. Everyone knows that | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
increasing productivity is going to
be the key to getting better growth | 0:49:22 | 0:49:24 | |
and higher wages. We want to have a
higher wages economy. With respect | 0:49:24 | 0:49:28 | |
to the higher wages that people are
getting, we're looking at investing | 0:49:28 | 0:49:33 | |
in skills and apprenticeships, a
whole range of things. If you looked | 0:49:33 | 0:49:38 | |
at the figures... Yesterday.
Actually those figures were | 0:49:38 | 0:49:44 | |
announced yesterday, they are the
most recent. It has been quite | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
sluggish, we accept that. The OBR
revised downward growth figures on | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
the back of that. I happen to think
that we are turning the corner on | 0:49:50 | 0:49:54 | |
that, but we will have to wait and
see. Do you agree that productivity | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
is key? Jeremy Corbyn has talked an
awful lot about policies which | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
should focus on increasing
productivity for British workers, | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
and now these figures suggest that
is happening, do you applaud that? | 0:50:04 | 0:50:09 | |
There's | 0:50:09 | 0:50:13 | |
There's a couple of things you need
to do to make sure that productivity | 0:50:14 | 0:50:16 | |
goes up. What we haven't had is the
investment in recent years in | 0:50:16 | 0:50:19 | |
equipment and different things, and
that's public as well as private | 0:50:19 | 0:50:21 | |
investment, and that will help. But
sometimes productivity is used as a | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
bit of a get out of jail card. You
don't expect productivity in sectors | 0:50:24 | 0:50:27 | |
like care or hairdressing... You
don't know how that is going to | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
look. Productivity is a bit of an
old measure in economics. We have to | 0:50:31 | 0:50:36 | |
really look at the way we talk about
wage all. And when you look at the | 0:50:36 | 0:50:40 | |
evidence of, the number one thing
affecting wages is that fall in the | 0:50:40 | 0:50:44 | |
labour share which is to do with the
lack of power, the ability to say to | 0:50:44 | 0:50:47 | |
your bosses, you're not going to get
that pay rise, instead, we're going | 0:50:47 | 0:50:51 | |
to share it out in productivity you
may think is an old-fashioned | 0:50:51 | 0:50:55 | |
measure but it is absolutely
critical to the long-term future and | 0:50:55 | 0:50:58 | |
bases of growth. But what what about
sectors where that isn't relevant? | 0:50:58 | 0:51:03 | |
The second thing I would say is that
you represent a think-tank. You're | 0:51:03 | 0:51:08 | |
saying that the answer is more
collective bargaining power and more | 0:51:08 | 0:51:11 | |
unionisation, that I would say is a
political debate. I don't happen to | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
agree with you, I don't think that
having huge amounts of trade union | 0:51:15 | 0:51:19 | |
power that we had in the 1970s is
going to be the answer to more | 0:51:19 | 0:51:23 | |
prosperity. But that is clearly a
political view that you have. It is | 0:51:23 | 0:51:27 | |
actually just based on evidence,
though. It is a function of your... | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
That is not of unsure of your
research, that's a political view | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
that you happen to take about the
merits of unionisation. Faiza says a | 0:51:35 | 0:51:41 | |
policy is required which entitles
workers to extra compensation for | 0:51:41 | 0:51:45 | |
working. The majority of workers
told the report that they get no | 0:51:45 | 0:51:49 | |
extra pay - should that be dealt
with? I have no idea, I haven't read | 0:51:49 | 0:51:53 | |
the report, I'm sorry about that.
But I don't think that that is | 0:51:53 | 0:51:57 | |
necessarily something that the
government can legislate for. But | 0:51:57 | 0:52:00 | |
the review did point to some of
those things, and the problem is, | 0:52:00 | 0:52:02 | |
the Taylor review has been done and
there is going to be more | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
consultations and this problem is
just being kicked down the road. And | 0:52:06 | 0:52:10 | |
in the meantime people are telling
is very strongly that they are | 0:52:10 | 0:52:13 | |
finding it very difficult, and when
you look at other indicators, like | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
household debt, which is back to
near record levels, that is not an | 0:52:17 | 0:52:20 | |
economy that is successful. It is
not working for workers, and who is | 0:52:20 | 0:52:24 | |
it working for? Even if you look at
the data that is favourable, as you | 0:52:24 | 0:52:30 | |
would say, in broad macro terms,
unemployment... All of that, yeah. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:35 | |
But in the end, if people say they
cannot afford to live, are you | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
saying, you're wrong? I'm not saying
that. When will the Treasury be | 0:52:40 | 0:52:45 | |
prepared to embrace the fact that so
many people do feel that they are | 0:52:45 | 0:52:49 | |
not going to be better off in future
years? I'm not going to sit here and | 0:52:49 | 0:52:53 | |
say it's a bed of roses and
everything is fine. Clearly people | 0:52:53 | 0:52:56 | |
are under a lot of stress, but
you've got to look at the direction | 0:52:56 | 0:53:00 | |
of travel. There have been huge
successes, as you yourself is | 0:53:00 | 0:53:04 | |
accepted and I think we're going to
improve. I think the productivity | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
figures are going to improve,
clearly the employment figures are | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
as good as... Let me put it the
other way. If for whatever reason we | 0:53:10 | 0:53:14 | |
had a serious problem with
unemployment, people like yourselves | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
rightly would be making hay about
this. And the fact is that we | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
actually have very good implement
figures. Are you surprised by that? | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
That unemployment has been so low?
Not really, because what we've seen | 0:53:24 | 0:53:30 | |
over the years is a growth in jobs,
but the quality of those jobs hasn't | 0:53:30 | 0:53:34 | |
been questioned. That's really the
critical thing, because having a bad | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
job is bad for your mental health,
just as much as not having a job at | 0:53:37 | 0:53:42 | |
all. We can do better than this, is
my point. And we need to do better, | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
because people are on the brink
here, they are telling us, like I | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
say, that this is very, very hard
for them to manage. The big thing | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
which needs to happen is that the
public spending cuts need to end, | 0:53:53 | 0:53:59 | |
because public sector workers above
everybody else in this report were | 0:53:59 | 0:54:02 | |
shouting loudest about work
intensification, about how difficult | 0:54:02 | 0:54:05 | |
their workplaces have become. We can
have a debate about the quality of | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
jobs and I think that is a good
debate to be having. In another | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
context we would be talking about
unemployment and we would be talking | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
about millions of people, as one of
the MPC members of the Bank of | 0:54:15 | 0:54:19 | |
England predicted, that there would
be 5 million unemployed. It does not | 0:54:19 | 0:54:22 | |
have to be either raw, does it? That
is a sign of the success we have | 0:54:22 | 0:54:27 | |
been having. | 0:54:27 | 0:54:30 | |
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:33 | |
The question was, what are
Conservative MPs using to message | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
each other, instead of WhatsApp? | 0:54:35 | 0:54:37 | |
Is it a) Invisible ink? | 0:54:37 | 0:54:38 | |
b) A pager? | 0:54:38 | 0:54:39 | |
c) A "military-grade
encyrption" app called Confide? | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
Or d) passing messages to each
other in St James's Park? | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
So, what's the correct answer? | 0:54:44 | 0:54:49 | |
Well, pages seemed to me to be
pretty old school! They really are, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:55 | |
even by my standards! I don't know
much about Confides, but I'm kind of | 0:54:55 | 0:55:00 | |
thinking it might be that one! And
you would be right! Apparently while | 0:55:00 | 0:55:04 | |
WhatsApp used to be the go to tool
for Parliamentary plotting, with MPs | 0:55:04 | 0:55:09 | |
of all parties using it, they're now
looking for other ways to | 0:55:09 | 0:55:12 | |
communicate which won't end up in
the papers. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:16 | |
We are joined now by a technology
journalist and by a Conservative MP | 0:55:16 | 0:55:23 | |
and former technology journalist.
Are you surprised that WhatsApp is | 0:55:23 | 0:55:26 | |
falling out of favour? Not at all,
because one of the problems is not | 0:55:26 | 0:55:30 | |
that the encryption is not good but
it is because it can be screen grab, | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
and that is what we see making the
papers, screen grabs of | 0:55:34 | 0:55:37 | |
conversations. So, is this the
answer for politicians? Any app has | 0:55:37 | 0:55:42 | |
got issues. You have to measure your
threat level, if you like! Confide | 0:55:42 | 0:55:50 | |
is better than WhatsApp because it
can't be screen grab. There were | 0:55:50 | 0:55:56 | |
some problems with Confide last year
because this was the app which the | 0:55:56 | 0:55:59 | |
Trump staff were losing last year
and it had all kinds of problems, | 0:55:59 | 0:56:05 | |
which to be fair they say they've
fixed. Warning alerts everywhere, no | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
doubt! So you don't think it is
guided by an to leaks? People have | 0:56:08 | 0:56:15 | |
to remember what they have actually
sent, because you can't screenshot | 0:56:15 | 0:56:19 | |
it, the down shot of that is that it
does not hold onto the history of | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
the conversation. So, if you want to
hold your fellow Tory MP to | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
something they've said, it will not
be there to hold them to it. Are you | 0:56:27 | 0:56:31 | |
part of these WhatsApp groups? I
hate to break it to you but actually | 0:56:31 | 0:56:36 | |
WhatsApp is still very much the main
platform. Oh, is it?! And as Kate | 0:56:36 | 0:56:42 | |
said, these apps are only as secure
as the users, whoever it is. And we | 0:56:42 | 0:56:46 | |
all know from the Sunday papers that
what happens on WhatsApp is not | 0:56:46 | 0:56:51 | |
necessarily as encrypted as we might
wish. And actually it's not the | 0:56:51 | 0:56:55 | |
technology, it's the personalities.
If people want to leak what has been | 0:56:55 | 0:56:59 | |
said, then that is what they will
do? And that is true if it is a | 0:56:59 | 0:57:03 | |
conversation in the corridor on if
it is on WhatsApp. I always say to | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
people, the weak point is the human
beings, not the technology. So there | 0:57:07 | 0:57:12 | |
is not much reassurance, then, for
your colleagues? I think everybody | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
is circumspect and yet it is in the
corridor on WhatsApp! And actually | 0:57:15 | 0:57:19 | |
we should bear in mind that some of
this stuff ends up in the papers big | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
because people want it to end up in
the papers. But WhatsApp is very | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
appealing, isn't it? You can see the
attraction. Why wouldn't Tory MPs | 0:57:27 | 0:57:32 | |
join a group forgetting lines agreed
and getting the narrative, it has | 0:57:32 | 0:57:35 | |
been helpful? Dug through the vast
majority of WhatsApp groups across | 0:57:35 | 0:57:41 | |
political parties are about making
sure that everyone is on the same | 0:57:41 | 0:57:44 | |
page and going in the same
direction. Every department will | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
have its own little support group
that is very straightforward. This | 0:57:47 | 0:57:51 | |
is what we are talking about at such
a juncture... I hate to say this is | 0:57:51 | 0:57:57 | |
not as exciting or as secretive in
most cases as it... Yes, it is! How | 0:57:57 | 0:58:02 | |
many groups are you a member of? I
haven't counted recently, but lots, | 0:58:02 | 0:58:07 | |
is the short answer! Have you looked
from any of them?! Almost all of | 0:58:07 | 0:58:11 | |
those groups are very prosaic, I'm
afraid! Cake, do you think we could | 0:58:11 | 0:58:18 | |
go back to the good old pager, I
remember those beeping all the time | 0:58:18 | 0:58:22 | |
when we were meeting politicians?
You could do but that is not | 0:58:22 | 0:58:26 | |
actually an effective means of Jimmy
Nikki King. What is nice about | 0:58:26 | 0:58:29 | |
something like WhatsApp or Confide
is, it's happening all the time. I'm | 0:58:29 | 0:58:32 | |
a member working with pages and you
had to wait for people to ring you | 0:58:32 | 0:58:36 | |
back - that's old school! It is! Are
you a member of a WhatsApp group? | 0:58:36 | 0:58:40 | |
Many! Everybody says many but nobody
is telling me which ones! | 0:58:40 | 0:58:47 | |
That's all for today. | 0:58:47 | 0:58:48 | |
Thanks to our guests. | 0:58:48 | 0:58:54 | |
Thanks to Faiza for being our best
of the day. | 0:58:54 | 0:58:57 | |
The one o'clock news is starting
over on BBC One now. | 0:58:57 | 0:58:59 | |
I'll be here at noon
tomorrow with all the big | 0:58:59 | 0:59:05 |