01/03/2018 Daily Politics


01/03/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by Brexit campaigner Tim Martin for the latest news from Westminster as England faces the biggest council tax rises in a decade.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 01/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

0:00:360:00:38

So another day, another

blizzard of Brexit stories.

0:00:380:00:41

Plus ca change.

0:00:410:00:46

The Prime Minister is preparing

for her big vision speech tomorrow.

0:00:460:00:48

Before that she'll meet the EU

Council President Donald Tusk,

0:00:480:00:51

amid stark differences over Brexit

plans for Northern Ireland.

0:00:510:00:57

Two big retailers,

Maplin and Toys R Us,

0:00:570:01:00

go into administration,

putting over 5,000 jobs at risk.

0:01:000:01:03

Is Brexit causing a big chill

in Britain's retail sector?

0:01:030:01:08

And what is the picture for

the broader business environment?

0:01:080:01:12

The Culture Secretary announces

that the government will not

0:01:120:01:15

implement the second stage

of the Leveson Inquiry, ruling out

0:01:150:01:18

a probe into the relationship

between journalists and the police.

0:01:180:01:22

We'll have the latest

on this breaking story.

0:01:220:01:26

And fancy a pint of fizz?

0:01:260:01:28

One English winemaker is laying down

imperial pint bottles of sparkling

0:01:280:01:32

wine ready to drink once

we leave the EU.

0:01:320:01:35

But will it leave a bitter taste?

0:01:350:01:43

All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

0:01:450:01:47

of the programme today

is Tim Martin, founder and chairman

0:01:470:01:50

of the Wetherspoons pub chain.

0:01:500:01:52

He also campaigned for Leave

in the EU referendum campaign.

0:01:520:01:56

Welcome back to the programme.

0:01:560:01:58

First today, the Culture Secretary

Matthew Hancock has confirmed

0:01:580:02:01

that the Government will not

implement the second stage

0:02:010:02:03

of the Leveson Inquiry.

0:02:030:02:06

Part two had been intended

to examine unlawful action

0:02:060:02:09

by media organisations,

plus relations between

0:02:090:02:12

journalists and the police.

0:02:120:02:14

Speaking in the Commons this morning

Mr Hancock explained

0:02:140:02:17

the reason for his decision.

0:02:170:02:20

During the consultation 12%

of direct respondants were in favour

0:02:200:02:23

of reopening the Leveson Inquiry

with 66% against.

0:02:230:02:28

We agree, and this is

the position that we set out

0:02:280:02:31

in the Conservative Party manifesto.

0:02:310:02:34

Sir Brian, who I thank

for his service, agrees

0:02:340:02:37

that the inquiry should not proceed

on the current terms of reference,

0:02:370:02:43

but believes that it should

continue in an amended form.

0:02:430:02:48

We do not believe that

reopening this costly

0:02:480:02:52

and time-consuming public inquiry

is the right way forward.

0:02:520:02:56

So considering all of the factors

that I announced to the House today,

0:02:560:02:59

I have informed Sir Brian

that we are formally

0:02:590:03:02

closing the inquiry.

0:03:020:03:05

Matt Hancock speaking there.

0:03:050:03:07

Well, Mr Hancock's Shadow

in Parliament is the Deputy Labour

0:03:070:03:10

leader Tom Watson.

0:03:100:03:16

He has been at the forefront of the

campaign to push ahead with part two

0:03:160:03:21

of the Leveson Inquiry. This was his

response.

0:03:210:03:24

There is more to be gained

politically by our political parties

0:03:240:03:26

from standing up to the tabloid

media than bowing down to it.

0:03:260:03:29

And when every Conservative MP

who was then in Parliament backed

0:03:290:03:32

this policy, including the current

Prime Minister and the present

0:03:320:03:35

Secretary of State,

they didn't really mean it.

0:03:350:03:39

They were waiting for the wind

to change, waiting for the force

0:03:390:03:44

to die down, waiting for a time

when they could, as quietly

0:03:440:03:47

as possible, break their promises.

0:03:470:03:51

Well, there is another dimension

to this story because overnight

0:03:510:03:55

Tom Watson confirmed

that he would no longer be receiving

0:03:550:04:00

any donations from the privacy

campaigner Max Mosley amid a row

0:04:000:04:05

over a racist by-election leaflet

from 1961 that he is

0:04:050:04:10

said to have published.

0:04:100:04:17

We will explain that in a moment.

0:04:170:04:19

We will explain that in a moment.

0:04:190:04:20

Here is Tom Watson speaking

about that in the Commons.

0:04:200:04:22

And I think I should take

the Mosley issue head

0:04:220:04:25

on with your indulgence,

Mr Speaker.

0:04:250:04:26

If I thought for one moment he held

those views contained in that

0:04:260:04:29

leaflet of 57 years ago,

I would not have given

0:04:290:04:31

him the time of day.

0:04:310:04:34

He is a man, though, who,

in the face of great family tragedy

0:04:340:04:38

and overwhelming media intimidation,

chose to use his limited

0:04:380:04:43

resources to support

the weak against the strong.

0:04:430:04:51

Tom Watson. With me in the studio is

our political correspondent. Explain

0:04:520:04:59

why this is important, this

dimension to the story of Max

0:04:590:05:02

Mosley.

Tom Watson's office has been

part funded by the Max Mosley

0:05:020:05:09

family. Max Mosley is a privacy

campaigner, he has long held clashes

0:05:090:05:13

with some of the British tabloids.

In recent years he has been a

0:05:130:05:18

campaigner for tougher regulation of

them. Labour says it will no longer

0:05:180:05:22

take any more money from the family

over this row over this racist

0:05:220:05:28

pamphlets from the by-election. Max

Mosley has strongly denied any

0:05:280:05:32

recollection of the leaflet, though

he has admitted if it is genuine,

0:05:320:05:38

the content is racist. £5,000 has

been donated to Mr Watson's office,

0:05:380:05:44

the last donation received last

year. Now that the nation has come

0:05:440:05:47

to an end and the party says it is

moving away from large-scale

0:05:470:05:51

donations.

In terms of part two of

the Leveson Inquiry, that was a

0:05:510:05:57

manifesto commitment to not go ahead

with it in the Conservative

0:05:570:06:01

manifesto.

Yes, that is right. But

it has been an extremely heated

0:06:010:06:06

debate over the Leveson Inquiry. You

remember the public outcry over the

0:06:060:06:10

alleged victims of phone hacking by

the News of the World. There will be

0:06:100:06:15

many major press newspaper groups

who will be extremely happy. But the

0:06:150:06:23

victims who have been campaigning

who thought when David Cameron

0:06:230:06:26

pledged to have the second part of

Lavis that that would be it and it

0:06:260:06:31

would happen, they will be

disappointed.

Tom Watson took the

0:06:310:06:35

opportunity to accuse the government

of bearing bad news, bearing in mind

0:06:350:06:39

the weather.

He said the government

had capitulated and was failing the

0:06:390:06:44

victims of press intrusion. The

government has been cleared today,

0:06:440:06:47

they think there have been changes

and the press is in a different

0:06:470:06:51

place to where it was when all this

was happening and the things that

0:06:510:06:55

happened that Leveson Inquiry did

too. That is what Matt Hancock was

0:06:550:07:00

saying today. Tom Watson says the

victims have been failed.

0:07:000:07:03

Tom Watson says the victims

have been failed.

0:07:030:07:05

Theresa May is meeting European

Council President Donald Tusk today

0:07:050:07:08

to give him a sneak peek

of the themes in her big

0:07:080:07:11

Brexit speech tomorrow.

0:07:110:07:13

But hanging in the air will be

the reaction on both sides

0:07:130:07:16

of the Channel to the EU's draft

withdrawal agreement,

0:07:160:07:18

published yesterday,

which set out the Commission's view

0:07:180:07:20

of the legal consequences

of December's deal on the first

0:07:200:07:23

phase of negotiations.

0:07:230:07:26

It's fair to say that here in the UK

it went down like a cup of cold sick

0:07:260:07:30

with lots of people and not just

Eurosceptics of long-standing.

0:07:300:07:33

The hostile response centred around

the EU's "fallback option" to keep

0:07:330:07:36

the Irish border open in the event

of no deal, with the EU trying

0:07:360:07:40

to put it in law that

Northern Ireland would remain bound

0:07:400:07:46

to EU rules and regulations,

even if Great Britain

0:07:460:07:50

decided to go another way.

0:07:500:07:52

Well, yesterday at PMQs

Theresa May kicked back hard,

0:07:520:07:55

saying no British Prime Minister

could ever agree to an effective

0:07:550:07:58

border between Northern Ireland

and Great Britain.

0:07:580:08:02

And last night David Davis

was talking tough to his Tory

0:08:020:08:05

colleagues, saying that there was no

way the UK would be handing over

0:08:050:08:08

billions of pounds in a divorce bill

until everything was agreed

0:08:080:08:11

to the UK's satisfaction.

0:08:110:08:16

Former Prime Minister John Major

was on hand dispensing his

0:08:160:08:18

wisdom to the government.

0:08:180:08:19

he said that by the time Brexit

happened the electorate would have

0:08:190:08:22

changed, so Parliament had

to have a decisive

0:08:220:08:25

and free vote now.

0:08:250:08:27

Nobody can truly know what the will

of the people may then be, so let

0:08:270:08:32

Parliament decide or put

the issue back to the people.

0:08:320:08:40

John Major there.

0:08:400:08:42

And yesterday the government also

said EU citizens who come

0:08:420:08:47

here during the transition will get

indefinite leave to remain.

0:08:470:08:55

That was an apparent U-turn.

0:08:550:08:56

That was an apparent U-turn.

0:08:560:08:57

But in a sticking point with the EU,

the British government says British

0:08:570:09:01

judges must have the final say

over their rights and not

0:09:010:09:03

the European Court of Justice.

0:09:030:09:04

Well, to discuss all this we're

joined by the Conservative MP

0:09:040:09:11

, sorry by the Labour MP Pat

McFadden.

0:09:110:09:15

McFadden.

0:09:150:09:20

And Iain Duncan Smith.

0:09:200:09:25

Do you accept there was no way that

the government could sign up to a

0:09:250:09:29

deal to keep Northern Ireland

effectively in the EU?

The EU has

0:09:290:09:35

thrown down the gauntlet to the

government and they have said there

0:09:350:09:38

are three ways of meeting the

commitments that you, the United

0:09:380:09:42

Kingdom, agreed to in December.

Remember this is based on an

0:09:420:09:46

agreement made just a matter of

weeks ago in December where the

0:09:460:09:49

government agreed that there was a

common body of EU law and policy

0:09:490:09:55

that underpinned the island economy

between North and south and that

0:09:550:10:02

they would try to maintain that

either by agreement or buy this

0:10:020:10:08

backstop option. What we cannot have

in this debate is the government

0:10:080:10:14

having set out various red lines

about leaving the customs union,

0:10:140:10:18

leaving the single market, having no

hard border between Northern Ireland

0:10:180:10:24

and the Republic, and also the UK as

a whole securing the exact same

0:10:240:10:31

benefits, that is the phrase David

Davis used, that when those things

0:10:310:10:34

become difficult that we lash out

and blame everybody else. So it is

0:10:340:10:40

for the Prime Minister now if she

does not like the text published by

0:10:400:10:44

the EU yesterday to say how she is

going to squirt those circles and

0:10:440:10:49

meet those commitments.

Iain Duncan

Smith, what is the government

0:10:490:10:53

getting so het up about? We expected

this, that was what was going to be

0:10:530:10:58

written down in legal text on the

basis of what was agreed on Sunday.

0:10:580:11:03

This is the EU's pitch for what they

believe will be the final outcome.

0:11:030:11:07

This is one element of it, their

view is there will be no deal and no

0:11:070:11:13

arrangement. The government's

response is right, they have said

0:11:130:11:17

they do not agree with it and they

are rejecting it.

That is the

0:11:170:11:23

fallback option, that is not all the

options. They are setting out what

0:11:230:11:27

was supposedly agreed in December.

Isn't the real problem that it was

0:11:270:11:32

not nailed down it was kicked into

the long grass?

No, the EU has gone

0:11:320:11:37

for an option that is absurd. Let me

complete this. Right now there is no

0:11:370:11:42

need for that kind of border, that

kind of problem, no matter what the

0:11:420:11:46

arrangement is. I will give you

three examples. One, they are

0:11:460:11:51

unreported mostly by any channel,

the head of HMRC and the head of

0:11:510:11:57

Defra have appeared in front of a

committee and they were asked

0:11:570:12:01

whatever the outcome do you believe

we will have to have a hard border

0:12:010:12:04

with checks? They have both said no.

They believe their systems will

0:12:040:12:10

allow them not to do it. Second, in

the EU parliament they themselves

0:12:100:12:16

have produced a report in which they

said this is an opportunity for the

0:12:160:12:21

EU to agree a form of friction is

border with the UK, using the right

0:12:210:12:26

technology, and that could be

applied to the rest of the EU. They

0:12:260:12:31

are critical of the commission and

it is their believe there would have

0:12:310:12:34

to be a hard border in Northern

Ireland. Right now we do not have

0:12:340:12:39

one, we do not need one in the

future and it is feasible for us to

0:12:390:12:42

do that. That would be better for

them to put forward as the final

0:12:420:12:45

fallback option.

Isn't Iain Duncan

Smith right that there is bad faith

0:12:450:12:51

from the EU. It undermines the whole

idea of the constitutional

0:12:510:12:57

settlement of the UK which they know

they will not sign up to it?

We are

0:12:570:13:02

in a unique situation historically

here because this will be the first

0:13:020:13:06

time ever that Northern Ireland will

be outside the European Union with

0:13:060:13:12

the republic inside. In the past we

had a situation where both places

0:13:120:13:17

were outside the European Union. And

for 40 odd years they were both

0:13:170:13:21

inside. This is historically unique

and it is not simple. Secondly, this

0:13:210:13:27

is based upon things that we have

agreed. If we don't like the way the

0:13:270:13:32

European Union has worded it, then

the challenge is for us to come up

0:13:320:13:37

with something convincing that can

be agreed.

Hasn't the government put

0:13:370:13:43

forward the idea of technical

solutions? Iain Duncan Smith cited

0:13:430:13:47

the idea of Defra representatives

saying ways can be found, whether it

0:13:470:13:52

is through preclearance or

declaration before people reach the

0:13:520:13:57

border, but you can keep it open and

frictionless. Isn't the EU using the

0:13:570:14:03

political situation in Ireland and

with the UK to beat the UK and

0:14:030:14:09

Northern Ireland at least in the

customs union?

The fibre is

0:14:090:14:14

connected to the Kneebone. There is

no need for a border down the Irish

0:14:140:14:22

Sea because the Northern Ireland

question here is actually a

0:14:220:14:26

crystallisation of the question

facing the whole of the UK. It is

0:14:260:14:33

the essential choice before us. We

can either have a system of high

0:14:330:14:36

market access with minimum barriers

and all the benefits the government

0:14:360:14:40

says it wants to have, and that will

come with high obligations to a

0:14:400:14:45

common set of rules. All we can do

what I think most Brexiteers want,

0:14:450:14:49

which is to have low obligations,

but alongside that will come a lower

0:14:490:14:57

level of market access. What we

cannot have, what is an illusion

0:14:570:15:01

which the government must stop

pedalling, is to pretend we can have

0:15:010:15:05

the same market access that we have

now with a much lower set of

0:15:050:15:09

obligations. That is the reason

agreement is not being reached and

0:15:090:15:12

we have got to get off that illusion

and make the fundamental choice the

0:15:120:15:17

country faces.

0:15:170:15:21

Pat McFadden called it an allusion,

others have called it fairy

0:15:210:15:25

godmother thinking. Isn't it time to

accept that this mythical idea at

0:15:250:15:30

you and your colleagues have that

has all the benefits and keeps her

0:15:300:15:33

frictionless trade that means we

don't have to sign in to any of the

0:15:330:15:36

laws and regulations is just one?

Let's separate two elements, which

0:15:360:15:41

is very important. The first is what

happens at the border. There is no

0:15:410:15:45

need for any of these physical

checks, for delays. There is a

0:15:450:15:49

reason for that. There are lots of

other countries in the world that

0:15:490:15:53

have trade arrangements that don't

go through this process.

Even Norway

0:15:530:15:57

has a border weather is

infrastructure.

Because the EU

0:15:570:16:01

insisted that Norway had a border.

If you talk to the Norwegians they

0:16:010:16:04

will tell you they don't believe

they need a border.

I will let you

0:16:040:16:08

come on but first, on this basis of

yours, you can't blame the EU,

0:16:080:16:16

because there is no trust. And I put

to you that there is no trust

0:16:160:16:19

because they have seen the likes of

leaked letters and memos from the

0:16:190:16:23

Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson,

suggesting a hardwood wouldn't be

0:16:230:16:25

that bad and comparing that border,

or having no border, to being the

0:16:250:16:30

same as two London borrowers. That

is why they don't trust you and you

0:16:300:16:35

can't blame them.

I don't think it

is anything to do with trusted

Was

0:16:350:16:43

unhelpful Boris Johnson...?

The

technology exists for all sorts of

0:16:430:16:46

items sorry pass through two

locations through different levels

0:16:460:16:49

but to have been registered. All of

this can be picked up quite happily.

0:16:490:16:54

There are two elements. The border

issue is being used by the EU and

0:16:540:16:59

Ireland to try and force us into a

position. This is about negotiation,

0:16:590:17:04

not about trust. The other element

that Pat was talking about is about

0:17:040:17:09

market access. We're leaving and we

won't have

0:17:090:17:21

exactly the same kind of access in

that one sense but you do not know,

0:17:220:17:25

and we do not know, and you are

sitting here with somebody right now

0:17:250:17:28

who is in a business and running a

company and selling things... We

0:17:280:17:31

don't know how business will react.

My sense is that business will

0:17:310:17:33

continue to sell and trade with the

EU. Our responsibility is to ensure

0:17:330:17:35

we have the least amount of friction

in that but the competition is up to

0:17:350:17:38

British business and I believe they

will meet that challenge without a

0:17:380:17:41

single problem.

Will you?

Yes, we

will. I think the whole issue is

0:17:410:17:47

mischaracterised. I will give one

example, which is we sell copper

0:17:470:17:52

burg cider from

0:17:520:17:57

burg cider from Sweden and we sell

more than the whole of Sweden

0:17:570:18:00

combined, or did at one stage. It is

from a small-town in southern

0:18:000:18:04

Sweden. If impediments are put in

the way of trade by the EU, for the

0:18:040:18:10

sake of argument and we switch to

the perfectly good cider suppliers

0:18:100:18:16

in this country, who suffers,

0:18:160:18:22

in this country, who suffers, as it

is the citizens of the EU. The

0:18:220:18:26

people who represent them are not

elected so unlike Ian Duncan Smith

0:18:260:18:30

or the Prime Minister or the other

parties, they are not collected.

0:18:300:18:34

That is the difficulty. But it is

not the case of the UK, people like

0:18:340:18:38

us or get lots of stuff from all

around the world, are going to

0:18:380:18:41

struggle. We can immediately

eliminate the customs duties,

0:18:410:18:46

invisible, but everyone in the UK

pays for them.

What do you say to

0:18:460:18:50

that, Pat McFadden?

On the exiting

the EU select committee that Iain

0:18:500:18:56

Duncan Smith referred to, we take

evidence of this all the time and

0:18:560:18:59

what we have been told is there is

nowhere in the world which pulled

0:18:590:19:03

out of a customs union in the way we

are proposing to and that doesn't

0:19:030:19:07

result in a border, including the

border between Norway and Sweden,

0:19:070:19:13

which is a hi-tech border but a

border all the same and there are

0:19:130:19:17

checks all the same. We were even

told by somebody from Turkey

0:19:170:19:21

recently that their trucks are held

up for up to two days at the border,

0:19:210:19:25

so I think a lot of people still

need to be convinced that... This

0:19:250:19:31

comes down to these incompatible red

lines, where they have said they

0:19:310:19:36

want absolutely no border in Ireland

but they also want to pull out of

0:19:360:19:41

the common system of rules and

customs duties that has helped to

0:19:410:19:45

facilitate that over the years. The

Government has failed to square that

0:19:450:19:49

circle. Let me say something else -

faced with the incompatibility of

0:19:490:19:55

those red lines, what you see from

Boris Johnson and from others in

0:19:550:19:59

recent days is comments now saying a

border won't be so bad or, even

0:19:590:20:06

worse, openly attacking the Good

Friday Agreement. This is hugely

0:20:060:20:10

irresponsible and is the result of

the throwing out of these

0:20:100:20:14

ideological lead driven redlines.

Iain Duncan Smith, are you, as John

0:20:140:20:19

Major accused you and colleagues of,

boxing in the Prime Minister and

0:20:190:20:24

making it impossible to square that

circle to get a deal done?

No, the

0:20:240:20:29

Prime Minister has been very clear

on day one that she voted to remain

0:20:290:20:33

but recognises the vote to leave

included leaving the customs union

0:20:330:20:37

and single market. Let me take pact

to task. Of course there is a

0:20:370:20:42

border, the question we are talking

about is, it is a border where you

0:20:420:20:45

end up, as in this ridiculous

scenario, of queues of people not

0:20:450:20:49

being able to cross.

What evidence

do you have but it will be

0:20:490:20:53

ridiculous?

Turkey has a customs

arrangement, and entry to the

0:20:530:20:58

customs union, because they have

chosen to join it. Their

0:20:580:21:01

recommendation is not to do a deal

because these people don't stick by

0:21:010:21:05

it. They have queues because the EU

is imposing artificial problems at

0:21:050:21:08

the border. The point here is, what

we are looking for - and this is why

0:21:080:21:14

it is a nonsense - the EU has chosen

to discuss all these bits and pieces

0:21:140:21:18

before a trade arrangement.

Comes

back to the issue of trust. David

0:21:180:21:26

Davis, the Brexit secretary, has

said he is going to withdraw or an

0:21:260:21:29

egg on the contract payment of oil

spilled it docked

It is not

0:21:290:21:35

reneging, everything is agreed on

offering agreed. We are in the

0:21:350:21:40

business of only agreeing the money

with them if they are in the

0:21:400:21:44

business of doing the deal. They sit

down and talk about trade and as for

0:21:440:21:50

Pat, one last point on Pat and his

party, this is a party that stood at

0:21:500:21:55

the last election saying they were

guaranteeing they were leaving the

0:21:550:21:57

customs union, they have no renege

or as Frank Field said the other

0:21:570:22:02

day, ratted on that.

Briefly, Pat

McFadden, are you also ratting on

0:22:020:22:08

your own supporters, Leave

supporters?

It is never ratting on

0:22:080:22:14

Labour voters to put jobs and the

economy first. We did not sound on a

0:22:140:22:18

platform saying we would pull out of

the customs union, we stood on a

0:22:180:22:22

platform saying we would try to

maintain the benefits of the customs

0:22:220:22:25

union and the single market and this

week we put jobs and people's

0:22:250:22:30

standard of living first. We're the

Labour Party, that is what we are

0:22:300:22:34

for. Pat McFadden, Iain Duncan

Smith, thank you.

0:22:340:22:40

Well, as the politics of Brexit look

ever more complicated,

0:22:400:22:43

the practical implications

for business seem increasingly

0:22:430:22:44

difficult to fathom.

0:22:440:22:46

In the meantime, it's been

a difficult week on the British high

0:22:460:22:49

street with both Toys R Us

and Maplin Electronics

0:22:490:22:55

falling into administration.

0:22:550:22:56

The announcements follow weak

results from several big retailers,

0:22:560:22:59

and with the shape of the transition

agreement, let alone

0:22:590:23:01

the final Brexit deal

still to be pinned down,

0:23:010:23:03

business is looking

a little anxious.

0:23:030:23:09

Elisabeth Glinka has been to visit

one such firm.

0:23:090:23:13

If you run a business the extent to

which you worried about Brexit

0:23:130:23:17

probably depends on what you do.

Based in Wiltshire, this company

0:23:170:23:21

makes high-grade adhesives, used in

everything from pacemakers to CT

0:23:210:23:28

scanners and satellites. Once

manufactured, the product must be

0:23:280:23:30

used within 48 hours, shipped across

Europe at subzero temperatures.

I am

0:23:300:23:36

very worried. This business is at

risk. If we don't know how we are

0:23:360:23:40

going to solve the problem of

customs and how that is going to

0:23:400:23:45

work in the future, I don't know if

we can sustain it and we are under

0:23:450:23:52

pressure from our customers and

shareholders.

So if the likes of

0:23:520:23:56

Boris Johnson or Liam Fox says,

"Come, come, you should be more

0:23:560:24:01

positive, we need to be trading with

the world," what would you say?

I

0:24:010:24:05

would say I am positive. You don't

get to do what I do unless you are

0:24:050:24:09

positive and I am always optimistic.

We have grown this business from

0:24:090:24:13

nothing to where it is today through

optimism, planning and investment.

0:24:130:24:18

All those things take a positive

attitude. But if I am asked by my

0:24:180:24:22

customers, what are you going to do?

If I can't answer that question the

0:24:220:24:28

business is in trouble. It is a

fundamental question of our

0:24:280:24:32

existence.

Rex's company is the only

one on the European continent making

0:24:320:24:37

these specialised products. 85 the

scent of his sales are with the EU.

0:24:370:24:41

At the moment we can ship to

Barnsley just as easily as to Brad

0:24:410:24:46

Slava, it is just the same.

You

would be hard pressed to find a more

0:24:460:24:51

literal example of trade. Since

Britain voted to leave the EU

0:24:510:25:00

economy has continued to grow but we

haven't actually left yet and as the

0:25:000:25:04

deal looks uncertain, many UK firms

remain concerned about the future.

0:25:040:25:09

Take the Welsh fishing fleet. Well

the rest of the UK's fisherman Art

0:25:090:25:13

excited by the prospect of an end to

EU quotas, the well to specialise in

0:25:130:25:18

shellfish and so the vast majority

to France and Spain and think

0:25:180:25:20

difficult plea -- differently. The

Anglo Dutch giant Unilever has yet

0:25:200:25:27

to decide whether its future remains

in the UK and the Kfar industry's

0:25:270:25:31

problems are well documented.

Yesterday, a company committed to

0:25:310:25:39

keeping its new model in the UK.

0:25:390:25:46

keeping its new model in the UK.

If

you talk to the majority of the

0:25:480:25:49

captains of industry they are

strongly opposed to Brexit. They

0:25:490:25:52

believe it would be bad for the

industries but most of them are

0:25:520:25:56

extremely reluctant to speak out and

say so because they know half of

0:25:560:26:00

their customers may be in favour of

Brexit and half not.

This morning a

0:26:000:26:07

report from the Business Select

Committee concluded that at least

0:26:070:26:09

for the automotive sector, Brexit

negotiations are an exercise in

0:26:090:26:13

damage limitation. For small firms

like Epoxy, promises only go so far.

0:26:130:26:20

Our guest of the day Tim Martin

knows a bit about business

0:26:200:26:23

and was a leading Leave campaigner

in the EU referendum.

0:26:230:26:26

We're also joined by the chair

of the Business Select Committee,

0:26:260:26:28

the Labour MP Rachel Reeves.

0:26:280:26:30

Welcome to the programme and I will

come to you in a moment. First of

0:26:300:26:34

all, the chief executive of Maplin,

which has gone into administration,

0:26:340:26:37

said there was a combination of

factors but cited very clearly a

0:26:370:26:40

drop in the value of the pound post

the referendum.

Well, it is very

0:26:400:26:46

difficult to say because if you look

at VAT receipts for December they

0:26:460:26:49

are up 15%. Income tax was up 5% so

government receipts are very

0:26:490:26:57

positive.

You must accept that the

drop in the value of the pound has

0:26:570:27:02

hit businesses.

It has hit lots of

them in a beneficial way. It is an

0:27:020:27:05

automatic stabiliser, a floating

pound. It has gone up and down over

0:27:050:27:11

the years and that is a good thing.

The companies that -- countries that

0:27:110:27:16

are problems are like Greece where

they don't have the automatic

0:27:160:27:20

stabiliser. Some have gone up, some

have gone down to drop it is the way

0:27:200:27:24

it operates.

Rachel Reeves, isn't

this the normal cycle of business?

0:27:240:27:28

The site of the drop in value of the

pound but said there were other

0:27:280:27:31

contributory factors so, alone, is

it still really a step too far to

0:27:310:27:37

blame Brexit?

I certainly wouldn't

blame Brexit for what has happened

0:27:370:27:40

at Toys "R" Us and Maplin. I was

thinking back to when I was growing

0:27:400:27:44

up and going to toys R us was a big

treat. I remember going with my dad

0:27:440:27:49

and sister. But I've got two small

children and we haven't been to toys

0:27:490:27:54

"R" Us. I don't think it has stayed

modern. This isn't all about Brexit

0:27:540:27:59

but there are businesses and my

select committee today has put out a

0:27:590:28:07

report on the motor industry. There

are businesses struggling because of

0:28:070:28:12

Brexit, especially if you don't get

the sort of deal which ensures that

0:28:120:28:15

frictionless free-trade which allows

them to move in and out of the

0:28:150:28:20

country with ease and without

tariffs.

Even Toyota who have made

0:28:200:28:24

this announcement about building a

new car in the UK say it has to be

0:28:240:28:28

on the basis of being able to trade

freely with the EU.

I understand

0:28:280:28:33

that up to a point but the main

aspect of the EU is that it is a

0:28:330:28:37

customs union that puts barriers to

trade outside the union so it is

0:28:370:28:43

free trade for 7% of the world, the

other 93% not. So for us it will

0:28:430:28:48

bring prices down. For the car

industry, they will either have to

0:28:480:28:53

locate the parts they need from the

other 93% of the world, which will

0:28:530:28:57

happen in some cases, all we will

have to negotiate a deal. It is in

0:28:570:29:02

everyone's interest to negotiate a

deal but I think everyone is jumping

0:29:020:29:06

on the bandwagon of trying to

frighten the public. We are talking

0:29:060:29:09

about

0:29:090:29:19

knocking down trade barriers, not

putting them up by leaving. The

0:29:200:29:22

customs union should be called a

tariff barrier union.

Do you agree

0:29:220:29:24

with that? Tim obviously wants to

leave the customs union and doesn't

0:29:240:29:26

want any partnership in the way that

has been put forward and that Labour

0:29:260:29:30

are supporting?

If you look of a

trade deals the EU has with the rest

0:29:300:29:33

of the world they are facilitating

lower tariffs and more trade with

0:29:330:29:35

other countries.

0:29:350:29:41

other countries. If you look at

Labour's policy of staying in a

0:29:410:29:45

customs union, that will be good for

the automotive sector and many other

0:29:450:29:50

manufacturing sectors in particular

that rely on just in time delivery

0:29:500:29:53

and getting components in from other

European countries very quickly. We

0:29:530:29:58

went a Honda in Swindon, my select

committee, and saw vans arrived

0:29:580:30:02

every seven minutes to bring in

parts. There were no warehouses,

0:30:020:30:06

they went straight into the

production line. That wouldn't be

0:30:060:30:10

able to happen if you had on customs

checks, which is a risk of a heart

0:30:100:30:13

Brexit.

0:30:130:30:18

Nobody has been able to say

categorically that any trade done if

0:30:180:30:22

there is a deal will be replaced in

any short amount of time by trade

0:30:220:30:27

deals with these other countries,

even if we took the tariffs away.

0:30:270:30:34

Rachel and her fellow MPs will have

the power to abolish all tariffs on

0:30:340:30:38

incoming goods into the UK on day

one when we leave.

What percentage

0:30:380:30:43

of trade would that resulting?

That

would immediately result in a big

0:30:430:30:49

boost to the incomes of people in

the UK, said that is a good start.

0:30:490:30:54

Then you can negotiate with other

countries for free trade agreements

0:30:540:30:57

in addition.

What we will not be

able to do is get rid of tariffs

0:30:570:31:02

that we are exporting around the

world. For British farmers and

0:31:020:31:08

British manufacturing companies,

whether it is pharmaceuticals or

0:31:080:31:12

automated, we cannot get rid of the

tariffs other countries charge. The

0:31:120:31:16

risk is that it does have a boost

for consumers in the short term, but

0:31:160:31:21

it will put British people out of

work if they cannot do that.

I

0:31:210:31:30

understand the risk, the maths is

that we import more than we export.

0:31:300:31:35

Consumers will gain more in income

than will be lost in sales to the

0:31:350:31:38

EU.

We need to be selling more

things overseas to grow our

0:31:380:31:45

production. If we grow down your

road, we will be putting more farms

0:31:450:31:51

and farm labourers out of work and

more factories out of work.

That is

0:31:510:31:55

not true. It might be good for your

business, but it will not be good

0:31:550:32:02

for the other ordinary businesses.

The ordinary British worker will be

0:32:020:32:07

better off.

Not if they don't have a

job.

That is a scare story frankly.

0:32:070:32:13

If you look at Australian and New

Zealand farmers they have done

0:32:130:32:16

extremely well on world markets when

tariffs were abolished.

There is not

0:32:160:32:24

a single automotive company that

would come into our Select Committee

0:32:240:32:27

and say there was any reason why it

would be good for them, not a single

0:32:270:32:34

one.

Let's move on to immigration

because you have said EU nationals

0:32:340:32:38

are important to your business. How

worried are you there has been

0:32:380:32:41

slowing down in the rate of growth

in the number of workers coming to

0:32:410:32:45

the UK from the EU?

Exactly what I

said about EU workers, they are

0:32:450:32:52

excellent workers, and I think the

country benefits, like Australia,

0:32:520:32:57

New Zealand and Singapore from a

gradually rising population, with

0:32:570:33:03

relatively low birth rates. I would

like to see the population to

0:33:030:33:06

continue to rise and that is the

main benefit. I would like to see

0:33:060:33:12

immigration controlled by the UK

Government, not run by the unelected

0:33:120:33:17

oligarchs in Brussels. That is what

has wound up the population not only

0:33:170:33:21

in this country, but around the

world.

Would you be happy with the

0:33:210:33:26

idea of staying in the single

market?

The single market is an

0:33:260:33:30

name. I am in favour of immigration,

but I wanted controlled by the

0:33:300:33:35

government and not the EU and at the

moment it is controlled by people we

0:33:350:33:40

have not elected. Yeast immigration,

but at a controlled level.

0:33:400:33:48

Controlled by Rachel. Flattery will

get you everywhere. If you were in

0:33:480:33:52

control, would it not be better that

you were held accountable for

0:33:520:33:57

immigration, whether you kept levels

relatively high, maybe not as high

0:33:570:34:00

at the moment, and you could be

blamed for it rather than successive

0:34:000:34:05

British governments blaming the EU?

People want to see tighter controls

0:34:050:34:11

on immigration and British

Parliament and British politicians

0:34:110:34:14

making those decisions about who can

come in and out of the country. We

0:34:140:34:19

have to respect and understand those

legitimate concerns people have

0:34:190:34:23

about the levels of immigration in

recent years. I do think we need to

0:34:230:34:27

see change after the referendum, but

let's not throw the baby out with

0:34:270:34:32

the bath water. Let's ensure we have

frictionless, tariff free trade, but

0:34:320:34:36

we also need to control immigration.

A level of agreement there. Thank

0:34:360:34:41

you.

0:34:410:34:41

Thank you.

0:34:410:34:42

And for more reporting

and analysis of Brexit,

0:34:420:34:44

check out the BBC News

website, that's bbc.co.uk/brexit.

0:34:440:34:48

Research published today

suggests council tax rises

0:34:480:34:51

are on the way across England,

predicting they will be

0:34:510:34:54

the largest hikes for 14 years.

0:34:540:34:57

The Chartered Institute

for Public Finance and Accountancy

0:34:570:35:00

has asked all local authorities

to provide figures

0:35:000:35:02

for council tax rises.

0:35:020:35:09

The average property in England

will be paying more than £80 a year

0:35:090:35:13

extra in council tax when bills

arrive in April,

0:35:130:35:15

according to this survey.

0:35:150:35:16

There will be some big

regional discrepancies,

0:35:160:35:18

with band D properties

0:35:180:35:22

in the North East due to pay

an average of almost £1,800 a year.

0:35:220:35:25

That's more than £250

higher than the bill

0:35:250:35:27

for taxpayers in outer London,

according to the survey.

0:35:270:35:29

Here's the chief executive of Cipfa,

as it's known, Rob Whiteman.

0:35:290:35:35

So, the headline figure

from our research is that council

0:35:350:35:37

tax is going up by an average

of 5.1% across the country.

0:35:370:35:41

That's about £80 per year for most

households and that is the biggest

0:35:410:35:44

increase we've seen for 14 years.

0:35:440:35:48

Two of the biggest pressures that

councils face are adult social care

0:35:480:35:51

and children's services.

0:35:510:35:54

Obviously, the number of people

approaching old age has gone up

0:35:540:35:57

and therefore there is more

elderly care needed.

0:35:570:36:01

And for children's services,

there is a mixture of more children

0:36:010:36:04

with learning disability requirement

packages but at the same time,

0:36:040:36:08

the role to protect children

who are vulnerable has also seen

0:36:080:36:11

quite an increase, so in both those

areas councils are generally

0:36:110:36:15

spending more money

than they have resources to do.

0:36:150:36:23

I think I said a hike in £1800 a

year. When we are talking about

0:36:250:36:31

regional discrepancies, I meant an

average of £1800 a year. We asked if

0:36:310:36:40

a minister was available to talk

about this, but no one was.

0:36:400:36:41

about this, but no one was.

0:36:410:36:43

I'm joined now from Nottingham

by Alison Michalska, who runs

0:36:430:36:45

the adult and children's services

in that city and is also the current

0:36:450:36:48

president of the Association

of Directors of Children's Services.

0:36:480:36:51

And with me here in the studio

is the Conservative MP

0:36:510:36:53

Kevin Hollinrake, who sits

on the local government

0:36:530:36:55

select committee.

0:36:550:36:58

Welcome to both of you. Allison, the

Local Government Association says

0:36:580:37:03

that by 2020 councils will have lost

more than 85% of central government

0:37:030:37:08

funding compared with levels in

2013. You work on the front line

0:37:080:37:14

providing children's services in

Nottingham. How have the cuts

0:37:140:37:18

affected you?

They have had a

devastating impact up and down the

0:37:180:37:22

country. In Nottingham as the

government roles are reducing, and

0:37:220:37:27

although council tax is going up in

the poorest areas, that raises the

0:37:270:37:31

least money. Nottingham city is very

deprived. We have estimated around

0:37:310:37:39

60% of our families living in

poverty. A council tax rise raises

0:37:390:37:43

the least money in places like

Nottingham. Up and down the country

0:37:430:37:48

there is a huge increase in demand.

As money is going down from

0:37:480:37:53

government to provide services, the

demand is going up. The increase

0:37:530:37:58

across the country we have seen in

the last ten years is just shy of an

0:37:580:38:02

80% increase in the number of

children who are subject to a child

0:38:020:38:05

protection plan. They are the most

expensive services. While councils

0:38:050:38:13

like Nottingham are having to do

around the country is to introduce

0:38:130:38:19

early help and early intervention

services and that means we are not

0:38:190:38:22

able to help children and families

early and then they reach crisis and

0:38:220:38:26

that is when they need to be

intervening with our most expensive

0:38:260:38:29

levels of service.

You said the

council tax rises will help a bit,

0:38:290:38:34

but you have said it raises the

least money in some of the most

0:38:340:38:39

deprived areas. What do you want to

see the government doing?

We

0:38:390:38:45

released a policy paper at the end

of last year and what we want the

0:38:450:38:49

government to do is to recognise

that if it wants to be a country

0:38:490:38:53

that works for all people it first

and foremost needs to be a country

0:38:530:38:57

that works for all children. We need

a sustainable funding settlement for

0:38:570:39:04

children's services. By 2020 the gap

in funding for children's services

0:39:040:39:08

will be at least £2 billion. Without

that sustainable funding we will be

0:39:080:39:13

unable to provide the very effective

early help and early intervention

0:39:130:39:19

services, the family support, they

are the services whereby local

0:39:190:39:23

authorities up and down the country

are helping families to care for

0:39:230:39:27

themselves and their own children.

Without that what we need to do is

0:39:270:39:31

to respond more urgently and with

more expensive intervention

0:39:310:39:34

services.

As you have laid out

extremely clearly and powerfully the

0:39:340:39:42

local challenges that local

government needs to do, what are you

0:39:420:39:47

going to do about it?

I agree with a

lot. The Secretary of State did give

0:39:470:39:54

a four-year funding settlement in

2016. It was a real terms increase

0:39:540:40:01

between 2018 and 2020. Let's put it

in context in terms of our national

0:40:010:40:05

finances. We are spending too much,

£40 billion every year more than we

0:40:050:40:12

get in taxes. It was 150 billion

when we took over the economy in

0:40:120:40:16

2010. At the same time we have

halved unemployment and we are one

0:40:160:40:21

of the fastest-growing economies in

the G7.

So why are there these

0:40:210:40:26

problems?

Every local authority has

to look at its own costs and has to

0:40:260:40:32

become more efficient. Nottingham

itself, £27 million every year in

0:40:320:40:37

terms of efficiencies. A lot of

councils have become efficient.

They

0:40:370:40:41

have fulfilled what the government

has said to them, they have cut

0:40:410:40:45

services and spending to the bone.

There is no more and we have had a

0:40:450:40:51

succession of local government

representatives saying that,

0:40:510:40:55

Conservative, Labour, Liberal

Democrat, right across the board.

0:40:550:40:58

What are you going to do? It is not

enough to say look at the context,

0:40:580:41:03

we are spending X amount of money

when there are far more elderly

0:41:030:41:08

people and far more children with

complex needs. To say you will

0:41:080:41:13

continue cutting does not answer the

question.

I did not say that.

0:41:130:41:18

Nottingham will see a real terms

increase in funding over the next

0:41:180:41:21

two years. Beyond that there are two

things we need to do. The biggest

0:41:210:41:28

pressure is that 34% of spending is

adult social care and we need a

0:41:280:41:35

long-term sustainable model for

funding that care. We need an extra

0:41:350:41:39

£9.4 billion and in this spending

round we need to put more money in

0:41:390:41:43

in the future. I personally think we

need to look at a social solution.

0:41:430:41:50

The other thing we need to do, and

your clip illustrated it perfectly,

0:41:500:41:55

is the funding of local authorities

is totally unfair. Nottingham gets

0:41:550:42:00

around £800 per person per year in

terms funding, whereas parts of

0:42:000:42:05

London, wealthy parts of London, are

getting £1100 a year to spend. That

0:42:050:42:10

is not right. The government is

committed to put in a new fairer

0:42:100:42:14

funding reviewed to make sure all

areas get a fair amount of. Less.

0:42:140:42:21

Absolutely not, it will be more, but

it will be fairer, so Alison can do

0:42:210:42:26

a good job that she does with the

right amount of resources.

Do you

0:42:260:42:29

like what you have heard?

Fairer

funding that would benefit

0:42:290:42:35

Nottingham city, of course I like

that. But we have to be clear, it is

0:42:350:42:39

some of our most efficient and most

wealthy councils that are also

0:42:390:42:43

struggling. It is the lack of a

comprehensive tackling child poverty

0:42:430:42:50

strategy that is getting in the way

and it would be great if the

0:42:500:42:53

government could address that. Yes,

money is going up in some areas but

0:42:530:42:59

it is not going up anywhere near as

the level of demand and need that we

0:42:590:43:03

have and that is across adult and

children's' services.

You have

0:43:030:43:09

listened to the debate. Do you think

it is their council tax goes up,

0:43:090:43:13

that the government is trying to get

local government to make those

0:43:130:43:17

decisions to distance themselves

some would argue from painful

0:43:170:43:20

decisions being made at a local

level? Do you think it is my

0:43:200:43:25

constituents pay perhaps up to 5%

more?

There is a good case for

0:43:250:43:29

people like me paying more perhaps,

but I am not sure how fair council

0:43:290:43:33

is. What really sticks in my crore

listening to what Alison said is the

0:43:330:43:39

fact that we are talking about

paying 10 billion a year, and we are

0:43:390:43:45

paying that now to the EU. Alison

only needs 2 billion. People say

0:43:450:43:51

what we paid to the EU is not much,

but it should be allocated to this

0:43:510:43:56

country.

A Brexit point for you.

What do you say to that? It will be

0:43:560:44:01

interesting to see whether there is

any damage to the economy or whether

0:44:010:44:05

that money can be spent in other

areas and it has been promised to a

0:44:050:44:10

number of different areas already.

We have to look at local government

0:44:100:44:14

finance in isolation. It has to be

that everybody gets a fair amount

0:44:140:44:18

for the needs of that local area and

we have a sustainable model of care.

0:44:180:44:24

Should there be a re-evaluation of

council tax properties?

That is not

0:44:240:44:29

the problem, it is about

distributing the money more fairly.

0:44:290:44:32

the money more fairly.

0:44:320:44:34

After months without a government

following last year's

0:44:340:44:36

inconclusive general election,

which saw gains for

0:44:360:44:38

the anti-immigrant AfD,

Germany's two largest parties have

0:44:380:44:42

finally done a deal to form

a so-called grand coalition.

0:44:420:44:45

Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats

have had to make significant

0:44:450:44:49

concessions to Martin Schulz's

Social Democrats to make

0:44:490:44:51

the deal - which the SPD

had originally ruled

0:44:510:44:53

out - happen.

0:44:530:44:55

But the coalition deal

is not yet quite sealed.

0:44:550:44:58

The final hurdle is a vote

of the SPD's entire membership,

0:44:580:45:01

which concludes on Sunday.

0:45:010:45:03

Joining us from the German city

of Cologne via the internet

0:45:030:45:06

is a British SPD,

and former Momentum,

0:45:060:45:09

activist, Steve Hudson,

who is leading the campaign

0:45:090:45:11

to get his comrades to say

"nein" to the deal.

0:45:110:45:14

And in the studio here

is the academic and SPD supporter

0:45:140:45:17

Dr Isabelle Hertner.

0:45:170:45:23

Welcome to both of you. Steve, what

is wrong with another grand

0:45:230:45:28

coalition? The SPD will be in

government.

Every grand coalition up

0:45:280:45:33

to now we have seen the SPD support

fall significantly.

The AFD is the

0:45:330:45:41

Alternative fur Deutschland, the

right-wing group.

0:45:410:45:47

right-wing group.

Yes, they have an

anti-refugee agenda. They point to

0:45:480:45:53

the SPD and say, you are all the

same, and we see SPD support

0:45:530:45:58

crumbling. And we go through another

grand coalition there is a real

0:45:580:46:01

danger the SPD will cease to exist.

Let's put that to Isabel Hertner. It

0:46:010:46:06

hasn't worked well for the SPD. They

have suffered and it has been a long

0:46:060:46:11

time since the SPD was the largest

party so what is the point?

I

0:46:110:46:18

understand what you are saying and

it has been difficult for the SPD to

0:46:180:46:22

make their presence felt in

coalition. But I would still say

0:46:220:46:28

that they are more determined now

than ever, that when the coalition

0:46:280:46:31

contract was written they made some

important concessions and if they do

0:46:310:46:40

enter the grand coalition they are

actually holding some very important

0:46:400:46:44

ministries, like finance, work and

social affairs, so they can actually

0:46:440:46:49

make their mark.

Steve, isn't that

the point? Angela Merkel is in a

0:46:490:46:53

much weaker position on the SPD will

have a much more dominant role this

0:46:530:46:58

time.

Both major parties are

suffered massively at the last

0:46:580:47:01

election and both are much much

weaker. I don't agree that the SPD

0:47:010:47:09

had a strong hand and what is the

point in having the finance ministry

0:47:090:47:13

if you are not allowed to raise

taxes for the rich, not allowed to

0:47:130:47:16

incur any public debt, you are still

bound to a programme of public

0:47:160:47:21

austerity which is massively

punishing working people in Germany.

0:47:210:47:27

Isn't that why they are losing

support, because they haven't been

0:47:270:47:31

able to put forward this agenda

Steve has outlined and are seen as

0:47:310:47:34

betraying their roots?

Yeah, but

when you look at the coalition

0:47:340:47:38

contract, they are suggesting that

more money needs to be spent on the

0:47:380:47:43

eurozone, more solidarity for

southern European countries, against

0:47:430:47:48

youth unemployment and so on. So

they are actually trying to pull

0:47:480:47:53

their weight and if you think about

the bigger picture and the eurozone

0:47:530:47:57

as a whole, then I do think there is

a good case for having the SPD in a

0:47:570:48:03

coalition government.

Steve, the

result will be on Sunday and most

0:48:030:48:07

people at this point think that most

SPD members will back the coalition

0:48:070:48:11

so isn't this all just a bit too

late?

We will have to see. We have

0:48:110:48:18

seen a really extraordinary

campaign. The party conference

0:48:180:48:21

passed a motion guaranteeing a free

and fair debate and we've had

0:48:210:48:25

exactly the opposite and ended up

with the SPD leadership sending

0:48:250:48:29

along with the postal ballot a

3-page letter on why you should vote

0:48:290:48:34

yes. Online, younger members, new

members joining the party, are

0:48:340:48:37

streets ahead but the average age of

the SPD member is 60 and many of the

0:48:370:48:43

SPD we simply cannot reach online

but we have been able to reach with

0:48:430:48:47

the others. We don't know how it

will turn out but we are very, very

0:48:470:48:53

worried - how is a genuine renewal

of the SPD possible? How are we

0:48:530:48:57

going to turn around in former

years' time if you have been part of

0:48:570:49:01

another coalition with conservatives

and say, now we are different and

0:49:010:49:04

have something better to offer?

What

would you say?

I would say yes, it

0:49:040:49:10

is true and I do see your point but

in the grand scheme of things,

0:49:100:49:17

triggering new elections, because

that could happen, and then you

0:49:170:49:19

would see the SPD vanishing even

more and the far-right AFD would

0:49:190:49:25

come second. That's what the polls

show us. I don't know if that is a

0:49:250:49:31

very palatable solution for the

future of Germany and also for the

0:49:310:49:37

eurozone, or the European Union as a

whole. I see this very much as a

0:49:370:49:41

European discussion.

Steve, it is a

risky strategy, isn't it? New

0:49:410:49:47

elections could see more AFD

representatives in the Bundestag,

0:49:470:49:52

which you would be against, and the

SPD could be wiped out and you would

0:49:520:49:58

have gambled on your so-called

radical agenda for the SPD and

0:49:580:50:01

retaining their principles by not

being part of this grand coalition

0:50:010:50:04

only to be wiped out.

We saw that a

year ago the SPD was on twice its

0:50:040:50:11

current support.

Yes, but for how

long?

But why was it on that?

Answer

0:50:110:50:18

the first question, how long, and

then tell us why.

For a couple of

0:50:180:50:23

weeks. But Martin Schulz, who was

then the leader of the party,

0:50:230:50:27

rejected that all full programme of

welfare cuts which was the SPD

0:50:270:50:31

legacy from the last SPD led

government and this whole third way

0:50:310:50:36

politics of publishing the pool for

being poor, and when he did that the

0:50:360:50:42

SPD's ratings went through the roof.

That is the key. If we need to go

0:50:420:50:46

through a new election that is where

we've got to turn round and say to

0:50:460:50:49

our electorate, we are there for you

again, not the capital and the

0:50:490:50:54

corporations.

Isabelle Hertner, do

you think that would happen? If

0:50:540:50:58

there was a radical left-wing agenda

and the sort of promises being made

0:50:580:51:02

by Steve... You could argue that

that worked here for Jeremy Corbyn

0:51:020:51:05

and support for the Labour Party

increased at the last general

0:51:050:51:09

election, the SPD could benefit?

I

am not so sure because those people

0:51:090:51:15

who voted AFD, I don't think they

are going to switch to the SPD back

0:51:150:51:20

any time soon. A lot of them are

disgruntled Conservatives and those

0:51:200:51:24

people who didn't vote in the past,

so I don't see them coming in big

0:51:240:51:30

numbers to join the SPD. I do not

think that's going to happen and

0:51:300:51:36

also, there was a party on the left

of the SPD, which could mop up

0:51:360:51:44

further activists further to the

left and voters anywhere.

Do you

0:51:440:51:48

think there is a future for the

social Democratic left? You have

0:51:480:51:52

written a book about the British

Labour Party, the French Socialists

0:51:520:51:54

and the German SPD that we'd been

talking about but if you have got

0:51:540:51:59

the left wing party in Germany, is

there really room politically for

0:51:590:52:02

the SDP now?

I think the SPD has to

find its place again, and it is

0:52:020:52:10

squeezed. On the left is left party,

on the centre-right is the CDU,

0:52:100:52:15

which is moved to the left, so the

SPD's for manoeuvre is quite

0:52:150:52:20

limited. But I think it has a strong

case.

Isn't that the point, Steve?

0:52:200:52:27

If you are a real left winger, why

don't you vote for the Greens or

0:52:270:52:31

another party?

The Greens have

become another middle-class party.

0:52:310:52:38

Pol

0:52:380:52:40

Die Linke have been a Communist

Party and the many people are

0:52:400:52:51

unelectable on those grounds. The

SPD is like a football team. You

0:52:510:52:54

don't change your party. What has

happened as most of those people who

0:52:540:52:58

were SPD voters, a lot of them have

just given up voting altogether so I

0:52:580:53:02

don't think we will get all the AFD

voters coming straight back to the

0:53:020:53:06

SPD but rather that millions of

people who have given up because

0:53:060:53:09

they've been abandoned by the

system, told the system was rigged

0:53:090:53:12

against them, some have gone to the

AFD but most have given up voting.

0:53:120:53:17

What we saw with Labour in the last

election was all those millions of

0:53:170:53:21

people coming back and that's what I

want for the SPD.

All right, Steve

0:53:210:53:26

Hudson and Isabelle Hertner, thank

you very much. We will find out the

0:53:260:53:30

result very soon.

0:53:300:53:32

Now, avid viewers of

the Daily Politics quiz

0:53:320:53:34

will recall us asking this week

which Winston Churchill

0:53:340:53:37

tipple is set to return

in pint-sized form after Brexit.

0:53:370:53:39

The answer of course was champagne -

with the war-time leader said

0:53:390:53:42

to enjoy "an imperial pint"

of the stuff, because half

0:53:420:53:44

a bottle was "insufficient

to tease my brains".

0:53:440:53:50

I'm sure that is the same with

everybody!

0:53:500:53:52

Well, we couldn't have a publican -

Tim Martin - on as our guest

0:53:520:53:55

of the day without asking

whether Brexit will lead

0:53:550:53:57

to a revival of pints of bubbly.

0:53:570:53:59

But let's first speak to Hubert de

Billy from Pol Roger in France,

0:53:590:54:02

whose champagne Churchill was said

to be partial to.

0:54:020:54:07

Welcome to the programme. Your

family actually knew Churchill. What

0:54:070:54:11

exactly did he like so much about

pint sized champagne?

He loves it

0:54:110:54:18

because he was drinking it in

couples and he used to say that when

0:54:180:54:23

he was drinking a bottle, Clementine

was not happy and when he was

0:54:230:54:28

drinking a half bottle, he was not

happy.

So this was the absolute

0:54:280:54:34

perfect compromise, to have

something in between. How many

0:54:340:54:37

glasses do you get out of a pint

sized bottle?

A pint is exactly 56.8

0:54:370:54:44

centimetres, to be precise so

roughly you can have four glasses,

0:54:440:54:52

approximately.

Perfect for

breakfast, clearly! Is that a pint

0:54:520:54:56

sized bottle you have got next to

you on that table?

Yes, that is the

0:54:560:55:03

imperial pint, it is what he used to

drink during the war.

And pints of

0:55:030:55:11

champagne - were they popular before

Brussels band of the size in 1973?

0:55:110:55:17

Er Whipp don't forget... Yes, it was

popular before the war because after

0:55:170:55:26

the war a lot of business has been

through the glass, champagne through

0:55:260:55:29

the glass, which was something new

and it was true that the pint was

0:55:290:55:35

popular before the war and with the

business of champagne by the glass,

0:55:350:55:42

it has been decreasing slowly but

surely and champagne people, when

0:55:420:55:46

they

0:55:460:55:52

they create it, they will ask for

the imperial pint, plus the fact

0:55:520:55:57

that it is true that we prefer to

count in the unit of bottles so with

0:55:570:56:03

a bottle, among them bottles, a half

bottle, a Jeroboam is four bottles.

0:56:030:56:09

The imperial pint was a strange

size, I will say, in the French way

0:56:090:56:17

of life!

Used stick to that! Tim, do

you fancy pint sized bottles of

0:56:170:56:22

champagne?

I love the idea. How much

you have to admire Churchill? Not

0:56:220:56:28

only was he a Great War leader and a

great writer and journalist but he

0:56:280:56:32

actually got that much a day. He

also dictated to his secretary while

0:56:320:56:36

he was in the bath and so I wouldn't

fancy trying that in the modern era.

0:56:360:56:41

No, and I doubt that you should

suggest it any more on that basis!

0:56:410:56:45

Don't forget that at the same time,

Churchill used to say that the

0:56:450:56:49

Magnum was the best size for two

gentleman, providing that one of

0:56:490:56:54

them was not drinking!

Fair enough.

What about the taste? It is all

0:56:540:57:00

about the taste. Do those bottles

enhance the taste of drinking

0:57:000:57:03

champagne or not?

No. The best size

is a Magnum.

Well, you would say

0:57:030:57:10

that!

I will give you an example. It

is like a hotel room. If you take a

0:57:100:57:22

one star or a 4-star you have a bed

inside and you will sleep but not in

0:57:220:57:26

the same comforts. And the

percentage of air compared to widen

0:57:260:57:36

the Magnum is the best size.

I am

convinced. I will only drink

0:57:360:57:40

magnums! Do you agree it has to be

Magnum is all the way? Is this just

0:57:400:57:47

a gimmick?

Yes, but we like

gimmicks, interest, talk, it's Boks

0:57:470:57:52

Ofcom the solution and the English

like pint so let's drink champagne.

0:57:520:57:56

We can all dream to that! You

enjoyed that pint sized bottle,

0:57:560:58:01

Hubert. Thank you for joining us. As

we have been on air, Donald Tusk is

0:58:010:58:07

arrived at Downing Street for talks

with the Prime Minister Theresa May.

0:58:070:58:10

He had plenty of journalists

shouting questions at him as he went

0:58:100:58:13

in. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

Some advance notice of what the

0:58:130:58:27

Prime Minister will be outlining in

her speech tomorrow and no doubt

0:58:270:58:29

some strong views on the EU's draft

document yesterday. I wonder if they

0:58:290:58:32

will be serving champagne at lunch,

pint-size Magnum. We will have a

0:58:320:58:34

special programme tomorrow from

1:30pm until 2:30pm but I am afraid

0:58:340:58:37

that is all we've got time for four

today. I am rather hungry for

0:58:370:58:42

something! Thank you for being our

guest today. Andrew has a special

0:58:420:58:47

This Week later with Liz Kendall,

Andrew Walmsley, did Brian bless and

0:58:470:58:55

David

0:58:550:58:55

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS