12/03/2018 Daily Politics


12/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Dramatic developments

in the Westminster bullying scandal

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as allegations against

Labour's Shadow Work

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and Pensions Secretary

lead her to stand aside,

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and MPs call for an investigation

into John Bercow's

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actions as Speaker.

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As Theresa May convenes her

National Security Council,

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could we be close to the government

apportioning blame to Russia

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for the poisoning of a former

Russian double agent,

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Sergei Skripal, and his daughter?

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University lecturers

are entering their third week

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of strike action over planned

changes to pensions.

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We'll be on the picket

lines talking to staff

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and the students affected.

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Comic Relief raise millions

of pounds for charities

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across the globe and in

the UK but does it harm

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the image of Africa?

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One MP thinks so.

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He'll tell us why.

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A billion people reduced to just

one prevailing image -

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mothers, desperate, crying,

worried for their children.

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All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today

Dame Margaret Hodge,

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former Labour culture minister,

and Tom Tughendhat, the chairman

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of the Foreign Affairs

Select Committee.

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First today, bullying allegations

hang over Westminster this morning.

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In a dramatic development last

night, the Labour Party

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announced that Shadow Work

and Pensions Secretary

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Debbie Abrahams had stood down

from her front-bench role

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while bullying allegations

against her were investigated.

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She refutes the claims and hit back

at Jeremy Corbyn's office accusing

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them of ten months of "aggressive"

and "intimidating" behaviour.

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At the same time, some MPs

are calling for an investigation

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into the Speaker John Bercow

after allegations surfaced about his

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treatment of a clerk in his office.

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He also strongly denies the claims.

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Our political correspondent

Ben Wright can tell us more.

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Ben, can we go back to the Shadow

Work and Pensions Secretary, Debbie

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Abrahams, before she was either

forced to step aside or decided to

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step aside herself. What is actually

going on?

Was very strange. Last

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night, suddenly the Labour Party put

out a statement that Debbie Abrahams

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had stepped aside while this

employment issue was investigated

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and almost immediately there was a

counter statement by Debbie

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Abrahams, completely taking Labour's

statement apart. She said that she

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had not agreed to stand down. She

completely denied any allegations of

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bullying and she accused some people

in the Labour leader's office of

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aggressive, intimidating and wholly

unprofessional behaviour. She said

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they had demonstrated a bully and

culture of the worst kind so she hit

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back really strongly. This thing

erupted out of the blue on what had

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clearly been an internal Labour

Party matter, and it has submitted a

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come public in the most edifying

way.

Have they fallen out, Debbie

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Abrahams on the leader's office?

I

think they clearly have, if you take

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Debbie Abrahams' statement at face

value. There is a real problem here.

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But she has been a member of Jeremy

Corbyn's team we think relatively

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harmoniously for the last two of

three years. She has been Shadow

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Work and Pensions Secretary for two

years and seen to be working well as

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part of the team but something has

gone very awry in how the Labour

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Party internally are handling what I

am told are more than two

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independent, separate complaints

about Debbie Abrahams' behaviour.

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She completely denies any allegation

at all that she has been involved in

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bullion. There has been no reaction

about this. We haven't heard from

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Jeremy Corbyn Debbie Abrahams but I

noticed in the last few minutes that

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Andy Burnham, Labour's mayor of

greater Manchester, said that Debbie

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deserve much better than this and

has been very loyal to the party

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over the years, so there is some

sympathy there from a senior figure

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in the party.

And a word on John

Bercow, the speaker, also facing

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allegations of bullying, which he

has denied. What is the development

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there?

You will remember last week

Newsnight ran a very big report on I

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think three MPs, one of whom was

John Bercow, accused of bullying.

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All three deny those allegations

very strongly but there is some

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pressure today on John Bercow, so a

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen has put down

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an early day motion, effectively a

Parliamentary petition, questioning

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whether John Bercow can continue

with his job as Speaker. He has been

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a very long-term critic of John

Bercow, it must be said. Separately,

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the co-leader of the Green Party,

Caroline Lucas, is hoping to get an

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urgent question called today because

she wants the complaints made by the

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former clerks to be heard about on

the floor of the chamber discussed

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and she wants clerks to be included

in the code of conduct that is being

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pushed through the Commons now, in

response to what have been months

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now of accusations of harassment and

bullying on the Parliamentary

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estate.

Ben Wright, thank you very

much.

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Well, joining me now

in the studio is Andrew Bridgen.

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He's the architect of a motion

in the House of Commons which calls

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for an independent inquiry

into the Speaker's actions.

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is

this effectively a no-confidence

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motion in the speaker?

No, I'm

hoping it is a motion that the house

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can get behind, even those who are

avid fans of John Bercow. The

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speaker has denied all the

allegations against him so it is an

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opportunity for him to clear his

name.

Isn't this just an excuse to

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get rid of him? You don't like him -

you have made that very clear.

He

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doesn't like me.

That may be the

case but you are the one button your

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weight behind this no-confidence

motion in him. Are you trying to get

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rid of him?

We're hearing lots of

allegations around Parliament,

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around harassment and bullying and

it is important, the speaker is

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crucial to the culture of the House

of Commons. I don't think we have a

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culture of endemic bullying and

harassment but the speaker has to be

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beyond approach and an independent

investigation into these very

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serious allegations against him I

think would clear the air.

Would you

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support this motion?

I am very

supportive of the speaker and I

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think he has done a very good job in

making sure backbenchers are heard

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and I support Andrea Leadsom's work

to make sure bullying is looked into

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throughout the house and died don't

think anyone is above it. I am

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supporting the work that Andrea and

the cross-party commission has done

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on trying to stop bullying.

You are

not going to sign this motion?

I

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have a policy of not signing early

day motions at all on the basis that

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they don't change anything and cost

money so I don't see the point.

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Well, what is the point?

Well, 158,

I think, cross-party MPs signed my

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motion about the TV licence. Were

scuppered House of Lords but we did

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get it into the bill. What is the

point? I think it needs to send a

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clear message from the house that it

will not be tolerated. Nobody has to

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come to work to be bullied or

harassed and that goes for everyone

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in Parliament, right up to Mr

Speaker, who was particularly

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important.

Do you agree that any

allegations have to be investigated?

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Let's look at John Bercow because he

decided over the introduction of the

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code of conduct around harassment

and bullying, so I have absolutely

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no doubt that if a complaint were to

be made against him he would go

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through the process. A complaint,

Andrew, as I understand it, has yet

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to be made, and you are well, well

known, decent man that you may be,

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to be utterly hostile to Mr Speaker.

I think he's been a great Speaker.

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He has modernised the house, he has

brought Parliament back to its

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rightful position of hearing debate

and holding ministers to account,

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and I don't think that you should be

using this to undermine a man whom

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you just don't like. I don't know

why but you don't like him.

I can

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accept that the speaker has many

good points and has made reforms

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around the chamber and procedures

that I am supportive of.

However, he

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has many negatives with him as well.

I think the Speaker has to be

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impartial and I think he has lost

that impartiality. When he came out

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and spoke about supporting Remain,

when he came out and said that the

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President of the United States would

be welcome in Westminster Hall, he

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is quite entitled to have those

views privately...

With the greatest

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respect, you are just demonstrating

the motivation for writing down the

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early day motion.

What has that got

to do with bullying?

This has

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nothing to do with bullying and

harassment, this is to do with your

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view of Mr Speaker. I have a very

different view. Has a complaint been

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brought against him? No, it hasn't.

At a complaint is brought against

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him, he will undergo the very

processes he himself introduced.

You

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know very well that the person in

question has not made a complaint,

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it is those around her. One of the

reasons for that is that

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whistle-blowers are treated

tremendously that the House of

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Commons, as you both well-known.

So

what is it you want investigated

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exactly?

The allegations of bullying

that have been made against Mr

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Speaker to be investigated

independently.

You want to look at

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whether or not he has been partisan

on Europe, which in my view he

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hasn't been.

What about these

allegations, though, Margaret Hodge?

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Let's go through all the

allegations. The fact we are talking

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about it is really good. Five years

ago, certainly when I was a

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minister, we managed those

situations where there was

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harassment and bullying. We managed

to them. The idea that you can now

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complain and be open about them is a

force for good and there are

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processes in place... I support,

actually, the demand that this

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should cover clerks of the house as

well as people working for MPs.

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Perfectly sensible idea and it is a

good thing we're talking about this.

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What about Debbie Abrahams, Shadow

Work and Pensions Secretary? There

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has been this row in the Labour

Party, saying that she has to step

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aside while investigations are

carried out about bullying

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allegations against her. Does she

deserve to know exactly what is

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being levelled against her?

I don't

know the details so it is a slightly

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uncomfortable position. Debbie

Abrahams has done a good job in

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highlighting what has gone wrong,

particularly with Universal Credit.

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Lethargy has helped the Government

to account on that. If there are

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allegations, they should be

investigated. It is that there are

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now up counter allegations from her

against the leader's office and I

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have to say we were told there was

going to be a kinder, gentler

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politics in the Labour Party. I am

not sure whether we are witnessing

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that. All the allegations should be

properly investigated and all people

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should be held to account dock

How

many people have signed the early

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day motion?

I only laid down about

half an hour ago.

So nobody has

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signed it so far?

I have signed it.

That is good to know.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Transport for London have banned

a poster from appearing at Tube

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stations because they argue it

breaches their rules on

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"images or messages which relate

to matters of public

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"controversy or sensitivity."

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So, our question today is,

what was the poster?

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Was it a job advert

for leader of Ukip?

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A commercial to tempt young people

to join Conservative?

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An advert for Corbyn memorabilia?

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Or an attempt to entice

businesspeople to move

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France following Brexit?

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At the end of the show,

Tom and Margaret

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will give us the correct answer.

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I hope so, anyway!

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The National Security Council -

that's a cabinet committee made up

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of senior ministers and chaired

by Theresa May - has been meeting

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this morning in Downing Street

to consider the latest information

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on the poisoning of Sergei

and Yulia Skripal.

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And the Prime Minister is reportedly

preparing to make a statement,

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perhaps as early as this afternoon,

implicating Russia in the attack

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and setting out retaliatory

measures, which could include

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expelling Russian diplomats

and revoking the visas of Russians

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in Britain with links

to the Kremlin, financial measures

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to freeze Russian assets in the UK,

coordinating a response with allies,

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particularly EU countries

and the United States,

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bolstering the presence of UK troops

and other Nato forces on the Russian

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border in Eastern Europe,

and refusing to send officials

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and dignitaries to the World Cup

in Russia this summer.

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Now, before we discuss the political

consequences let's get the latest

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on the ground from Salisbury.

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Leila Nathoo is there.

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What has been the reaction from

members of the public in Salisbury,

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who have now been asked to wash

their clothes, in guidance that has

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come nearly a week after the event?

Yes, this is guidance that has been

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given because traces of this deadly

nerve agent have been found in two

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locations, the restaurant and pub

that the Skripal are known to have

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visited before they collapsed, and

this place behind me. About 500

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people who visited the Zizzi

restaurant and the Mill pub have

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been asked to take the precautionary

advice and wash their clothes, wiped

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down any items like phones or

glasses, and bag things that need to

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be dry cleaned. This has come a week

after the incident. Officials say

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there is no risk, no need to be

alarmed, it is just a precaution and

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as they get new information, the

advice changes. But I think there is

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some concern and anxiety among

people we have spoken to who have

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been to the restaurant and the pub

that this advice has come a bit late

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in the day as far as they're

concerned. They feel if there is a

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risk, why weren't they told earlier

and if there is, why are they being

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told to take these measures now? But

I think the investigation is

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focusing really before Zizzi because

we now know that the Skripals were

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contaminated when they got to that

restaurant. The table they sat at

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has been destroyed, it was so

contaminated, so there are separate

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decontamination operations taking

place around the city centre in

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different locations to try to make

sure that is completely free of that

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nerve agent but clearly, people

who've specifically gone to that

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restaurant and pub will be most

concerned.

Leila Nathoo, thank you.

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And Vicki Young is outside

Downing Street for us,

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where the Prime Minister has

convened her National

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Security Council.

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So, I'll be expecting the Prime

Minister to point the finger of

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blame at the Russian state?

Downing

Street are being very tight-lipped

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about all of this. I think she is

determined to see clear evidence

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before she does anything like that.

They've been in that for about an

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hour and a half, including senior

figures like Amber Rudd, and Theresa

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May has been under pressure from

some in her own party and from

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people like Mr Johnson to give a

robust response. I think she wants

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to make sure the police and security

services have had time to do their

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job to do it properly and to come

forward with the evidence that she

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needs. And pointing the finger of

blame at Russia is one thing but of

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course what group would that mean?

Would it mean the Kremlin and

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President Putin? It could be KGB or

former KGB agents, could be

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something to do with the criminal

underworld and it is that thing she

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needs to be sure of. They've

promised ministers there would be a

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robust response of it is proven

Russia is behind this but to make it

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meaningful, really, Britain has to

act alongside other countries, it

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could be other members of the

European Union, it could be Nato. If

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that is to happen, they certainly

will want to see clear evidence, so

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I think that is why there has been

this cautious approach. Amber Rudd

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talked about clear heads and they

want to be very sure they are sure

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of the facts before they make the

announcement.

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Joining us in the studio

is James Nixey, he's the head

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of the Russia programme

at the foreign affairs think

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tank, Chatham House.

0:17:010:17:02

Do you welcome a cautious approach

from the Prime Minister and Home

0:17:020:17:04

Secretary over this?

Caution is

prudent. You don't want to

0:17:040:17:10

miscalculated and have a cataclysmic

response by Russia. At the same

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time, what has been proven is that

the successive policies towards

0:17:130:17:20

Russia, what we have seen

consistently, is protection of

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well-managed, Kremlin linked

interest to have links to UK

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solicitors, lawyers, bankers,

accountants etc. I think now is the

0:17:300:17:33

time to begin to exterminate these

in order to protect ourselves. This

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is a chemical weapons attack, an act

of terrorism and need to -- needs to

0:17:390:17:47

be called out as such.

Do you agree

with that?

I think it is a terrorist

0:17:470:17:54

attack, similar in kind as well as a

nature to other terrorist attacks

0:17:540:17:59

we've had. The fact there is a

British policeman in hospital, there

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are two attempted victims in

hospital and many hundreds of people

0:18:030:18:07

are having to take precautions for

fear of getting further harm, we can

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see this is a very, very mass

attack, a group of people who did

0:18:120:18:17

this had no care at all for the

safety of British people.

Do you

0:18:170:18:20

expect the Prime Minister to point

the finger of blame at Russia and

0:18:200:18:24

Vladimir Oudin?

I am for the simple

reason this is a nerve agent. They

0:18:240:18:30

are difficult to make and very

difficult to store and they are even

0:18:300:18:34

more difficult to transport so the

idea anybody except eight state

0:18:340:18:38

actor had control of this and access

to it and would have been authorised

0:18:380:18:42

to deploy it is laughable.

Do you

agree with that?

Absolutely. Nerve

0:18:420:18:48

agents state property under state

control.

So what about retaliatory

0:18:480:18:52

measures? You've made criticism of

government is protecting well

0:18:520:18:55

moneyed Russians here. So, hit them

where it hurts? In the pocket?

0:18:550:19:00

Absolutely because those people have

links back to Vladimir Putin. The

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squeeze has repercussions. One can

have a much more coordinated cyber

0:19:040:19:13

response, European response, Nato

response even. It can even be

0:19:130:19:16

brought up at the UN Security

Council. In the realms of cyber,

0:19:160:19:21

military sphere and diplomatic

sphere, of course, we don't want to

0:19:210:19:24

cease diplomatic relations.

So, you

wouldn't send them all home?

I

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wouldn't but I'd send those home

with proven links to other

0:19:280:19:32

affiliations other there -- other

than their designated affiliations.

0:19:320:19:37

Would that have other repercussions?

I completely concur with what has

0:19:370:19:41

been said so far but I think we have

to go deeper. It has now become the

0:19:410:19:46

jurisdiction of choice for dirty

money. Associated with organised

0:19:460:19:51

crime, criminals, all those sorts of

people. I think there is a not we

0:19:510:19:58

could do pretty quickly to try and

make us less likely to have...

For

0:19:580:20:06

example? There are 85,000 properties

in the UK today that are owned by

0:20:060:20:13

shell companies, mainly located in

tax havens.

Many of those Russian

0:20:130:20:17

health. If we had the public of

beneficial ownership of properties

0:20:170:20:23

which Cameron and Osborne promised

in which this government is delaying

0:20:230:20:27

until 2021, that would be one thing.

Two, we are very lax in how we allow

0:20:270:20:33

companies to be incorporated in the

UK. I know this is going on a bit

0:20:330:20:38

but it is important. Many companies

choose Britain. If we look at the

0:20:380:20:44

Scottish limited partnership, this

is a structure that was set up to

0:20:440:20:47

help farmers in Scotland in vest in

their land. There is an analysis

0:20:470:20:53

been done which shows that people of

importance, whatever it is called,

0:20:530:21:02

in the analysis done, only 4% of

them were British people and the

0:21:020:21:06

actual people who incorporated those

companies would Russians, Ukrainians

0:21:060:21:10

and people from Belarus. These

structures being used by people in

0:21:100:21:15

Russia and elsewhere to hide dirty

money and we should go...

Has the

0:21:150:21:19

government failed in terms of making

get too comfortable for wealthy

0:21:190:21:23

Russians to choose London as a place

to settle?

I agree with Margaret, I

0:21:230:21:27

don't think we've gone far enough. I

think dirty money not only allows

0:21:270:21:35

others from, frankly, questionable

jurisdictions to hide their ill

0:21:350:21:37

gotten gains here but it also

corrupts the system were trying to

0:21:370:21:40

protect and what we've got to do is

demonstrate the city is absolutely

0:21:400:21:45

the heart of the international

financial system and in order to do

0:21:450:21:47

that we've got to show we are clean,

honourable and law-abiding. 99% of

0:21:470:21:53

business is so what we are talking

about is sorting out a very small

0:21:530:21:57

amount of all the people who invest

in London. We need to do with

0:21:570:22:03

trusted people.

Should money donated

from wealthy Russians, unless the

0:22:030:22:08

Conservative party can prove the

source of that funding, should it be

0:22:080:22:12

returned?

If they are British

citizens and it is donated by

0:22:120:22:16

British citizens, I'm not a believer

that you should search for prior

0:22:160:22:20

affiliations. Refugees come from

around the world and become British

0:22:200:22:23

citizens if it is lawful British

citizens. If it is however

0:22:230:22:27

associated to an oligarch who is

still a Russian citizen and it is

0:22:270:22:32

done through a front, absolutely

not.

The Prime Minister said she was

0:22:320:22:35

going to suck from a long spoon.

Wouldn't it be business as usual?

It

0:22:350:22:40

shouldn't be. I'm afraid I'm not

involved in raising money.

We can go

0:22:400:22:47

tougher on political donations. I

think the extent of the exposure in

0:22:470:22:51

the Sunday Times yesterday, over

£800,000 going to the Conservative

0:22:510:22:56

party, suggest we should look again

at individual donations to limit the

0:22:560:23:03

influence that people will think

that buys.

Will that work? Is there

0:23:030:23:08

a risk that actually there are

people here, like Roman Debrunner

0:23:080:23:13

Fitch, people who would be put off

to invest if we make it too

0:23:130:23:18

difficult?

That is correct and it

will have a negative effect on us.

0:23:180:23:22

It will affect the balance of

payments. We are not over exposed to

0:23:220:23:26

the Russian economy but in order to

protect our national security, we

0:23:260:23:31

will have to incur some smaller

sacrifices. It will hurt them more

0:23:310:23:34

but it will hurt us as well.

She

will never get economic sustainable

0:23:340:23:41

growth and prosperity on the back of

dirty money so while there might be

0:23:410:23:45

a short-term instant impact, in the

long-term the integrity of our legal

0:23:450:23:49

and financial systems is far more

important.

What about Russia today?

0:23:490:23:53

Should any moves be made about that?

It is extraordinary that information

0:23:530:24:00

warfare by a hostile state and an

organisation that has breached its

0:24:000:24:04

broadcasting licence on numerous

occasions still has not... Still is

0:24:040:24:10

able to broadcast free. That is a

matter for Ofcom. I hope they are

0:24:100:24:14

looking at it very carefully because

this is running, and isn't just

0:24:140:24:18

Russia today but it is also another

company in Edinburgh.

Do you think

0:24:180:24:24

we can achieve up anything with crop

money?

You can do a lot more. You

0:24:240:24:30

can do an affectation of the

Americans act, which deals with

0:24:300:24:34

Kremlin Russians. Unexplained wealth

orders, money laundering orders.

The

0:24:340:24:40

Labour Party said they tried to

amend the sanctions on intime

0:24:400:24:45

money-laundering to add a close and

led to this act only for it to be

0:24:450:24:49

blocked by your party.

There are

many people on my side, including

0:24:490:24:52

Andrew Mitchell and me who have been

pushing for these orders. I'm not

0:24:520:24:59

going to go through the details of

the wet amendments and political

0:24:590:25:03

chicanery goes through the Commons

but what I will say is there are

0:25:030:25:06

many of us that have often pushed

for this and are still pushing for

0:25:060:25:09

this this is not a party matter.

Margaret and I agree on this that we

0:25:090:25:12

need to be much clearer on this and

what we need to do is do as James is

0:25:120:25:18

saying. We need to be hard line in

making sure London isn't a

0:25:180:25:22

playground for wealthy oligarchs who

are the aristocrats of a new tourist

0:25:220:25:25

regime.

Let's look at the reports

that's

0:25:250:25:33

that's been published today in which

the term global Britain cannot just

0:25:330:25:35

be a slogan. What do you mean by

that?

What I meant by it, or what

0:25:350:25:40

the group meant by it, is that we

need to do more than simply have a

0:25:400:25:45

slogan. We need to have the detail

of the resources behind what it

0:25:450:25:49

means. For example, one of the

things we have seen since the Brexit

0:25:490:25:54

vote is that we need to reinvest in

bilateral relations in Europe. That

0:25:540:26:01

is absolutely right but I don't

think what anybody expected was that

0:26:010:26:06

assets that come from China in order

to be invested in the European 27,

0:26:060:26:11

it doesn't strike us as global

Britain so what does global Britain

0:26:110:26:13

need? Can you put meat on the bone

so that we understand what you are

0:26:130:26:18

aiming at. I use selecting rules

-based institutions like the Asian

0:26:180:26:24

infrastructure investment bank? Are

you selecting individual bilateral

0:26:240:26:27

relations and where is the resource

coming from?

You seem to blame the

0:26:270:26:31

foreign office who you say has lost

its way and there is problems with

0:26:310:26:34

leadership at the top.

One of the

things we've noticed is we haven't

0:26:340:26:38

had the clarity we require from this

and I think it is up to leaders to

0:26:380:26:42

provide clarity so I am hoping we

will get that.

Do you have faith in

0:26:420:26:46

Boris Johnson to deliver that?

Boris

Johnson is an amazing campaigner and

0:26:460:26:51

has an amazing voice so I hope he

uses to what is at the moment are

0:26:510:26:57

refused -- a confusing situation.

Thank you.

0:26:570:27:02

Now, it's already been a busy week

and its only Monday lunchtime.

0:27:020:27:04

Let's take a look at what else

is happening this week.

0:27:040:27:06

As we've just been discussing,

Caroline Lucas from the Greens hopes

0:27:060:27:09

to be granted an Urgent Question

on allegations of bullying

0:27:090:27:11

in the Commons, while Tory MP

Andrew Bridgen is calling

0:27:110:27:14

for an independent inquiry

into allegations made

0:27:140:27:15

against the Speaker John Bercow.

0:27:150:27:17

Tomorrow, the Chancellor

presents his Spring Statement.

0:27:170:27:21

There'll be no Red Box,

or rabbits out of hats we're told,

0:27:210:27:24

but we'll be watching closely,

live here on the Daily Politics.

0:27:240:27:29

On Wednesday, it's the weekly

showdown between Theresa May

0:27:290:27:32

and Jeremy Corbyn at

Prime Minister's Questions.

0:27:320:27:34

The PM is then set for more tough

talk with the first ministers

0:27:340:27:38

of Scotland and Wales,

over the EU Withdrawal Bill.

0:27:380:27:41

On Friday, the Conservative

Party's Spring Forum gets

0:27:410:27:44

under way in London.

0:27:440:27:45

And, at the weekend,

Russia goes to the polls

0:27:450:27:50

to elect a new President.

0:27:500:27:51

The results are expected Sunday

evening, but there are few prizes

0:27:510:27:53

for guessing who'll win that one.

0:27:530:27:56

We're joined now by Kate McCann

from the Telegraph and Steve

0:27:560:27:58

Hawkes from the Sun.

0:27:580:28:03

Welcome to both of you. How much

pressure is the speaker under?

I

0:28:030:28:10

think John Bercow is under a

significant amount of pressure this

0:28:100:28:13

morning. As you mentioned earlier

there is an urgent question down but

0:28:130:28:18

officer he gets to decide whether it

is heard about his behaviour and the

0:28:180:28:22

behaviour of a couple of other MPs

highlighted in the Newsnight

0:28:220:28:26

investigation. It's worth looking at

what is going on behind the scenes

0:28:260:28:30

because John Bercow originally said

he'd stop being the speaker in June

0:28:300:28:33

of this year when he had served

almost two full terms. After that,

0:28:330:28:37

he quietly said he'd like to carry

on for longer which annoyed quite a

0:28:370:28:41

lot of MPs, both on the Labour side

and the conservative side who feel

0:28:410:28:44

he should give up his seat and let

somebody else have a turn. There is

0:28:440:28:50

a lot of that rumbling along

underneath all this talk about

0:28:500:28:52

bullying and what he has or hasn't

done in his office as speaker.

0:28:520:28:57

Steve, Russia, how big test of

Theresa May's leadership will be the

0:28:570:29:01

response of the government to what

has happened in Salisbury?

Very big.

0:29:010:29:06

If you see the Evening Standard,

Amber Rudd is talking about a

0:29:060:29:09

powerful response to Russia, and the

Kremlin, so it is all building up to

0:29:090:29:14

quite a big showdown in the Commons,

if this statement does,. There was a

0:29:140:29:19

Security Council meeting at 11am,

and it is about the proof, how

0:29:190:29:23

decisive it as it was a Russian wet

job, as they call it, and how far

0:29:230:29:30

you can go into expelling people,

sanctions or diplomatic sanctions.

0:29:300:29:35

And also Jeremy Corbyn's response.

Last week he was act by the

0:29:350:29:40

commonest party so his response will

be fascinating.

Let's talk about the

0:29:400:29:44

spring statement because this will

be a pared down event. Because it is

0:29:440:29:48

new and the big showpiece will be

later on in the year in the autumn.

0:29:480:29:53

What are we going to expect from the

Chancellor?

Not very much. We were

0:29:530:29:58

talking about what we might be

highlighting this week and we almost

0:29:580:30:02

forgot the spring statement entirely

because it is probably going to be

0:30:020:30:05

boring.

Don't say that! We have a

special programme on it tomorrow.

0:30:050:30:14

Don't hold out too much hope! Philip

Hammond is not called Spreadsheet

0:30:150:30:19

fill for nothing. We're not

expecting any particularly big

0:30:190:30:23

announcements at although we may see

things like consultations about

0:30:230:30:26

plastics and whether he may or may

not banned chewing gum or try to tax

0:30:260:30:30

chewing gum. But we're not expecting

anything big, we're not expecting

0:30:300:30:34

Philip Hammond to rock the boat and

he has robbed himself and the

0:30:340:30:38

Government of the ability to change

the narrative of where the

0:30:380:30:42

Government is going. He could have

done something really big and

0:30:420:30:46

exciting and set Theresa May on a

path which took a back to her Number

0:30:460:30:49

Ten speech when she said it was all

about the just about managing people

0:30:490:30:52

but he has decided not to do that

and we are going to have to wait

0:30:520:30:56

until the autumn to hear big news

from the Chancellor.

Is that a

0:30:560:30:59

mistake? I know it is a relatively

low-key event enters a big

0:30:590:31:05

announcements but he could have set

something out about the narrative on

0:31:050:31:08

austerity or not austerity.

For all

the talk, there will be a few people

0:31:080:31:13

talking about it tomorrow. There

will be more about Brexit

0:31:130:31:14

contingency spending, a bit more

about the national living wage,

0:31:140:31:18

which will go up in April but I

think this will be more one for the

0:31:180:31:22

geeks. Most of the play tomorrow

will be a forecast from the OBR. We

0:31:220:31:28

expect borrowing to be about 8

billion lower this fiscal year and 4

0:31:280:31:34

billion lower next fiscal year,

which gives him a bit more with

0:31:340:31:36

room. That is what the economists

are looking for, the borrowing, and

0:31:360:31:40

how low that goes on whether the

Chancellor will get edged back

0:31:400:31:43

toward the surplus. In November they

wrote off the chances of that until

0:31:430:31:48

2025 so the detail is going to be

quite interesting.

I will be

0:31:480:31:51

standing up for all the geeks, then!

Thank you both for joining us today.

0:31:510:31:56

Now, lecturers at universities

across the UK are entering

0:31:560:31:58

their third week of strike action

in a dispute over changes

0:31:580:32:01

to their pension plans.

0:32:010:32:02

Staff say they will be almost

£10,000 worse off per year

0:32:020:32:04

if the changes come into force

but university management say

0:32:040:32:07

the pension scheme has a £6 billion

deficit which can't be ignored.

0:32:070:32:10

Ellie has been out on the picket

lines taking the temperature.

0:32:100:32:14

Nice weather for ducks this morning.

0:32:140:32:16

And, it would seem,

striking lecturers.

0:32:160:32:17

We are outside Senate House

at the University of London,

0:32:170:32:20

and I've got my own striking

lecturer.

0:32:200:32:22

Why are you striking this morning?

0:32:220:32:25

We are striking to defend

the pensions that people

0:32:250:32:27

who work in universities -

lecturers, librarians,

0:32:270:32:31

others who work with them -

have felt were guaranteed for years

0:32:310:32:33

and are now being threat

and with a cut of up to 50%.

0:32:330:32:37

But what you're being changed

from is a guaranteed benefit

0:32:370:32:39

when you get your pension

to a guaranteed contribution system,

0:32:390:32:42

which is what most of the private

sector is on, and the universities

0:32:420:32:45

say that because there is a big,

black hole, in essence,

0:32:450:32:49

they can't afford your pensions,

so it needs to change.

0:32:490:32:51

There is no black hole.

0:32:510:32:53

The Vice Chancellors know this.

0:32:530:32:54

They themselves have

complained about the way

0:32:540:32:55

the calculations have been done.

0:32:550:32:57

There is plenty of money

to guarantee the pensions that

0:32:570:32:59

people felt they were entitled

to when they started

0:32:590:33:02

in the profession,

sometimes decades ago.

0:33:020:33:08

We've seen a number

of these strikes already.

0:33:080:33:10

What's going to happen

if there is no resolution?

0:33:100:33:13

We hope there will be

a resolution this week.

0:33:130:33:15

There are talks at Acas.

0:33:150:33:16

If not, we will still strike

to the end of the week, and, then,

0:33:160:33:19

if there is no resolution

beyond that, more strikes

0:33:190:33:21

will happen in the summer.

0:33:210:33:23

They will happen when students

are taking their exams.

0:33:230:33:25

And it may be that some people

will end up without the degree.

0:33:250:33:28

Some students may not graduate

if the employers don't come around

0:33:280:33:31

to do what's reasonable

and to deliver what

0:33:310:33:33

they've promised.

0:33:330:33:35

Greg, thank you very much.

0:33:350:33:36

Well, it's quite serious stuff.

0:33:360:33:38

I think we can move around now

and find, sorry to interrupt,

0:33:380:33:41

the pet student here.

0:33:410:33:42

Now, Nisha, you're supporting

the lecturers here, even though

0:33:420:33:44

we've just heard you might not

get your degree, or some students

0:33:440:33:47

might not get their degree.

0:33:470:33:49

Well, I think the changes that

are happening at the moment

0:33:490:33:51

to the pension scheme are something

that affects students

0:33:510:33:53

in the long-term.

0:33:530:33:54

You're not worried, though?

0:33:540:33:55

You're paying £9,500, you're losing

a number of teachers...

0:33:550:33:58

£16,250.

0:33:580:33:59

I'm an international student.

0:33:590:34:00

Even worse!

0:34:000:34:02

How do you justify that, then?

0:34:020:34:04

The thing is, I don't think fees

should exist at all in education.

0:34:040:34:06

I'm completely against fees.

0:34:060:34:08

And I think that there are other

questions that these strikes

0:34:080:34:10

are raising right now.

0:34:100:34:12

Because the university sector has

effectively been brought

0:34:120:34:15

to a standstill this has been

a really great opportunity

0:34:150:34:17

for students to start questioning

why is it I have to pay

0:34:170:34:20

for my education?

0:34:200:34:21

Thank you very much.

0:34:210:34:22

Let me take you over

here to the other important

0:34:220:34:25

part of this strike,

which is the tea station.

0:34:250:34:27

And I think we've got...

0:34:270:34:28

Hello, have you had any students

who are a bit annoyed that they've

0:34:280:34:31

lost their teaching days

and they are paying all this money?

0:34:310:34:34

I think it's astonishing how

supportive the students have been.

0:34:340:34:36

Maybe there are some

who don't say anything,

0:34:360:34:38

cos they realise they're not

going to get a good reception,

0:34:380:34:41

but nearly everyone is on board,

they recognise why the lecturers

0:34:410:34:43

are doing this, so, yeah,

it's been really great

0:34:430:34:46

to have their support.

0:34:460:34:47

All right, thank you very much.

0:34:470:34:48

It looks like there might be a bit

of brownie left, so, you know,

0:34:480:34:51

far be it to be involved but this

strike could continue

0:34:510:34:54

to the end of the week,

and into the summer, who knows.

0:34:540:35:01

Ellie trying to dip into the

sustenance there!

0:35:010:35:03

Joining me now is Keith Simpson.

0:35:030:35:04

He's a lecturer at City University

0:35:040:35:06

and a member of the University

and College Union, who are

0:35:060:35:08

organising the strike.

0:35:080:35:09

And we're joined from Nottingham by

the pensions expert John Ralph.

0:35:090:35:12

We did invite Universities UK,

the group who represent universities

0:35:120:35:15

in the dispute, onto the programme

but they didn't have

0:35:150:35:17

anyone available.

0:35:170:35:18

But I'm delighted that you two are

here. First of all, Keith Simpson,

0:35:180:35:22

how do you justify potentially

depriving students of their degrees

0:35:220:35:26

and, in broad terms, their

education?

I think the situation is

0:35:260:35:31

that we have taken this industrial

action to make sure that students

0:35:310:35:34

are not deprived of education.

This

is about your pensions.

It is but it

0:35:340:35:40

is also about education generally.

We have also taken industrial action

0:35:400:35:44

that we think shows the employers we

are serious about this, and that

0:35:440:35:47

this will resolve the matter as

quickly as possible. When we started

0:35:470:35:52

this dispute, vice chancellors

across the country were saying that

0:35:520:35:55

there was no resolution possible,

that there was a massive black hole.

0:35:550:36:00

Now quite a lot of them of come out

saying that there is room for

0:36:000:36:04

negotiations and talks, and that is

exactly what we are going to do.

0:36:040:36:08

That is what is happening at Acas

today and we hope that this dispute

0:36:080:36:12

is over before the end of the week.

Do you agree with Keith Simpson? Is

0:36:120:36:17

he right to say there is a

resolution that is possible? You

0:36:170:36:23

have advised employers, including in

this sector. What of the scale of

0:36:230:36:28

the pension problem?

I have followed

pension schemes for many years and

0:36:280:36:31

as far as this is concerned, there

is more misinformation and

0:36:310:36:34

disinformation than I have ever seen

before. Of all the three parties

0:36:340:36:40

that are involved, USS the pension

scheme, you the union, and Unico,

0:36:400:36:45

the employers, they're all in denial

to various degrees. And I'm sorry to

0:36:450:36:50

correct you, the deficit is not £6

billion. The deficit in the last

0:36:500:36:55

published, audited accounts of US S,

March 2017, was £17.5 billion. My

0:36:550:37:03

concern is that all the three

parties, for different reasons, are

0:37:030:37:06

in denial about the extent of the

problem. They're all throwing up

0:37:060:37:11

smoke screens. I don't know what the

answer is but from a technical

0:37:110:37:15

forensic point of view, we need to

have the facts on the table, and the

0:37:150:37:19

facts on the table are people living

longer, real interest rates are

0:37:190:37:23

going down, therefore the cost of

providing pensions is going up and

0:37:230:37:26

that affects all employers. Added to

that, in the case of USS, the huge

0:37:260:37:33

deficit, the largest deficit, 17.5

billion, though we have ever seen

0:37:330:37:37

any UK pension scheme, is

self-inflicted. USS don't want to

0:37:370:37:41

own up to that. It is self-inflicted

because the last ten years or more,

0:37:410:37:45

they have been at the casino and it

has not paid off.

Well, deficit is

0:37:450:37:51

even bigger, £17.5 billion.

John

seems to make a living by on and

0:37:510:37:57

wrecking people's pensions.

Are you

saying he is wrong? That figure is

0:37:570:38:00

incorrect?

I am not a pensions

expert. I went directly to the

0:38:000:38:06

people that I think do know

something about it, the professors

0:38:060:38:09

that work at city University's

business school. Some of them are

0:38:090:38:12

actuarial scientists and they say

that the U UK position is very

0:38:120:38:18

negative and that this situation can

be resolved. I am not an expert.

0:38:180:38:23

John Grimes on all of these

programmes saying these things.

0:38:230:38:27

There is no black hole, and the

pension is actually getting more in

0:38:270:38:32

every year than is taken out of it.

It has got a long-term future, and

0:38:320:38:38

UK universities are something to be

proud of. They're not going to

0:38:380:38:41

disappear. We have some of the

leading universities in the world.

0:38:410:38:46

This is a sustainable pension fund

and you see you have put forward

0:38:460:38:53

proposals that we are talking about

at Acas that will make sure it is

0:38:530:38:58

sustainable for the future.

Answer

that criticism and your reputation

0:38:580:39:01

in saying that you are wrong on

this.

I hope I don't need to defend

0:39:010:39:07

my reputation. The 17.5 bigger is

not a figure that I have calculated

0:39:070:39:11

or estimated. It is in the published

report and accounts, done on exactly

0:39:110:39:16

the same basis that the other 5000

pension schemes on the UK have to

0:39:160:39:20

prepare their accounts. What

surprises me is that anybody thinks

0:39:200:39:26

that universities can be immune to

the changes that are happening -

0:39:260:39:30

repeat, people living longer, real

interest rates are lower. Look at

0:39:300:39:34

the 5000 pension schemes in the UK.

Most of them have already closed and

0:39:340:39:38

moved from defined benefit to

defined contribution and I have to

0:39:380:39:42

say, that includes the pension

schemes of a lot of the individual

0:39:420:39:46

universities so if you are a

clerical employee at university you

0:39:460:39:50

are in a different scheme and the

lot of those aboard a close.

Do you

0:39:500:39:56

support the strike, Margaret?

I

think this is an issue... Let me

0:39:560:39:59

deal with the actuarial position

first. I think that would be

0:39:590:40:02

agreement across the two parties as

to the precise actuarial position.

0:40:020:40:06

These judgments so they should both

do it and then they should get on

0:40:060:40:09

and negotiated top I agree that

people are living longer, interest

0:40:090:40:13

rates are low and therefore moving

from defined contribution... From

0:40:130:40:18

benefits to a contribution system is

important. But at the back of all of

0:40:180:40:23

this, it sticks in the gullet, at

the same time as academics who are

0:40:230:40:26

not well paid are being asked to

give up their pension, you have vice

0:40:260:40:32

chancellors on huge, hefty sums of

money which will give them very,

0:40:320:40:36

very generous pensions when they

come out of...

Do you agree, Tom

0:40:360:40:44

Tugendhat? Do you have any sympathy

for this strike or do you think

0:40:440:40:47

people like these should get back to

work?

I have a huge sympathy while

0:40:470:40:52

students losing education, I have

huge sympathy for people who planned

0:40:520:40:55

the future and find out is not going

to be as it appeared. But the

0:40:550:40:58

reality is that we are living longer

and that is a great thing, it gives

0:40:580:41:02

grandparents time with their

children, a lot of people a lot more

0:41:020:41:08

time with families, and that is

fantastic news but it does mean we

0:41:080:41:11

need to change the way we do things.

Can you think of any other strike

0:41:110:41:14

that has happened as a result of

closing a final salary scheme that

0:41:140:41:16

has resulted in a change?

I can't see any change that has

0:41:160:41:22

happened where we are talking about

a thriving, multi-billion

0:41:220:41:25

contributions of the British

economy.

So you don't take on board

0:41:250:41:28

the whole point about living longer,

but these schemes are much more

0:41:280:41:32

expensive as a result of that?

People are living longer but,

0:41:320:41:37

actually, that is one reason why you

should have a good pension, because

0:41:370:41:40

I think, as Margaret said, we are

not well paid. University lecturers

0:41:400:41:45

and support staff don't go into this

to make lots of money. We have not

0:41:450:41:50

got a generous pension scheme even

now. We are defending something that

0:41:500:41:55

is good but is not the best. The

teachers' pension scheme is much

0:41:550:41:58

better than ours at the moment and

if we see the decline in our

0:41:580:42:03

pensions scheme, how are we going to

recruit the brilliant academics that

0:42:030:42:08

are actually making this a success

across the world? After Brexit we

0:42:080:42:12

will need to have the best

researchers, the best universities,

0:42:120:42:17

to compete.

We have to finish it

there. John Ralfe and Keith Simpson,

0:42:170:42:21

thank you very much.

0:42:210:42:24

Now, staying in higher education,

a graduate is suing her former

0:42:240:42:26

university for giving her

what she called

0:42:260:42:28

a "Mickey Mouse degree."

0:42:280:42:29

Fiona Pok studied

International Business Strategy

0:42:290:42:30

at Anglia Ruskin University,

in Cambridge, but she says

0:42:300:42:32

that the claims in the prospectus

about high-quality teaching

0:42:320:42:35

and excellent career

prospects were overblown.

0:42:350:42:36

And she joins us now.

0:42:360:42:41

In particular, what do you think

Anglia Ruskin misrepresented in the

0:42:410:42:44

prospectus?

In my opinion, the

University misrepresented the course

0:42:440:42:50

as to the quality of the course and

also what kind of resources they

0:42:500:42:55

have. They misrepresented the

prospect of a career, what kind of

0:42:550:42:59

job or what area you will end up in,

working in, after you graduate from

0:42:590:43:04

the course.

Have you had any joy

with getting a job, having

0:43:040:43:07

graduated?

Well, I know a lot of

people misunderstood that I have not

0:43:070:43:14

been able to get a job at the thing

is, the main point is, they

0:43:140:43:19

exaggerated the prospects of a

career, studying with them, and also

0:43:190:43:23

they exaggerate how connected the

network the has with, like,

0:43:230:43:31

regional, national or international

companies because at that time they

0:43:310:43:35

say they will help students or

graduates to find employment in a

0:43:350:43:40

lot of the big companies because

they have a connection with them.

0:43:400:43:43

What I found was so misrepresented

is, when I finished my study I

0:43:430:43:49

signed on at the career advice

bureau and tried to get some career

0:43:490:43:52

advice to see if any job

opportunities that I was hoping to

0:43:520:43:57

land on, and I find out the only

source they had was copy and pasted

0:43:570:44:01

from other companies, the

recruitment agencies already

0:44:010:44:05

available on the internet,

accessible by the public.

How much

0:44:050:44:08

are you suing them for?

I am suing

them for over £60,000.

And you think

0:44:080:44:15

that is justified, for students to

decide the quality of teaching and

0:44:150:44:18

whether it is satisfactory? You

graduated with a first, I

0:44:180:44:23

understand. Is it really the

responsibility of Anglia Ruskin to

0:44:230:44:26

guarantee you a job in the way you

have just outlined?

I think you

0:44:260:44:31

misunderstood. I am not saying they

have to guarantee me a job but they

0:44:310:44:34

have no right to make empty promises

if they have no capacity to deliver

0:44:340:44:38

them.

They have released a statement

saying, "We are well aware of the

0:44:380:44:44

claims made by this former student

and robustly defending the current

0:44:440:44:49

litigation". Has the university been

supportive in your concerns?

What do

0:44:490:44:54

you mean?

I mean, have they

understood... Before you decided to

0:44:540:44:57

take the action to sue, did you talk

to the university about your

0:44:570:45:02

concerns?

Of course. I have been

talking to them for over six years.

0:45:020:45:06

Internal complaints, external

complaints procedure has been gone

0:45:060:45:11

through, so there was no other thing

I could do.

All right, thank you

0:45:110:45:15

very much for joining us.

0:45:150:45:18

Comic Relief - or Red Nose Day

as it's better known -

0:45:180:45:21

has raised over £1 billion

for charities around the world

0:45:210:45:23

since it began 30 years ago.

0:45:230:45:24

Its subsidiary, Sport Relief,

returns this weekend,

0:45:240:45:26

encouraging the public

to "get active, raise money

0:45:260:45:28

"and change lives".

0:45:280:45:29

But Labour MP David Lammy questions

whether it's doing enough.

0:45:290:45:32

This is his Soapbox.

0:45:320:45:35

KLAXON

0:45:350:45:36

CHEERING

0:45:360:45:39

From this weekend, thousands

of Britons will be raising

0:45:400:45:44

money for Sport Relief,

a biannual telephone that asks

0:45:440:45:49

Britons all over the country to part

with their cash to help

0:45:490:45:53

poverty stricken Africans.

0:45:530:45:59

Sport Relief and Comic Relief have

tattooed images of poverty in Africa

0:45:590:46:02

into our national psyche to such

an extent that few of us can escape

0:46:020:46:06

the guilt of not donating.

0:46:060:46:12

A billion people reduced to just

one prevailing image -

0:46:120:46:17

mothers, desperate, crying,

worried for their children,

0:46:170:46:22

and children with swollen

bellies, hungry.

0:46:220:46:25

This is not to say that dire

poverty is not persistent,

0:46:250:46:31

or that images of suffering is not

the most effective

0:46:310:46:33

way to raise money.

0:46:330:46:36

But Sport Relief surely

has to be different.

0:46:360:46:42

Life expectancies are up over 10%

in 37 African states.

0:46:420:46:48

Economic growth in the 11 largest

sub-Saharan countries

0:46:480:46:52

was double the world

average in the past decade.

0:46:520:46:57

The Nigerian film industry,

Nollywood, has overtaken Hollywood

0:46:570:47:00

as the world's second-largest

movie-maker.

0:47:000:47:06

Sport Relief should be helping

to establish the people of Africa

0:47:060:47:10

as equals to be respected,

not as victims to be pitied.

0:47:100:47:15

So, rather than getting celebrities

to act as tour guides,

0:47:150:47:19

why not get Africans to talk

for themselves about the continent

0:47:190:47:23

and the problems that they know?

0:47:230:47:26

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:47:260:47:31

Sport Relief

and Comic Relief should do more

0:47:310:47:33

to challenge their audience.

0:47:330:47:36

Challenge their audience not just

to feel guilty but to feel angry.

0:47:360:47:42

Angry that despite the wars that

plague the continent,

0:47:420:47:46

the international world places more

restrictions on bananas

0:47:460:47:48

than they do AK-47s.

0:47:480:47:54

Get their audience thinking

about trade and about governance.

0:47:540:47:58

Don't just present a reservoir

of poverty but help people

0:47:580:48:01

understand what sustained

change really means.

0:48:010:48:05

So, this year, let's have a debate

about the big issues -

0:48:050:48:09

trade, dictatorship,

debt, education -

0:48:090:48:13

in the continent of Africa.

0:48:130:48:15

Of course the fundraising

is worthwhile but the Red Nose Day

0:48:150:48:19

formula is tired and hugely

patronising to the people

0:48:190:48:22

of a great continent.

0:48:220:48:28

David Lammy is here,

as is Ben Maitland,

0:48:280:48:30

a spokesperson for Comic Relief.

0:48:300:48:37

It's tired and hugely patronising.

What do you think about Comic Relief

0:48:370:48:42

and Sport Relief?

We wouldn't accept

that and we've been looking at the

0:48:420:48:46

very issues David is talking about

and we are constantly seeking to

0:48:460:48:49

change how we make our funds. We are

very excited and proud of the

0:48:490:48:53

changes we've been making and we are

going to see for the first time real

0:48:530:48:58

focus on local voices and local

heroes be they community health

0:48:580:49:03

workers or nurses, talking about the

work they're doing. Equally it is

0:49:030:49:07

important remember Sport Relief is

50% is spent here and 50% is spent

0:49:070:49:15

internationally. In particular over

the last couple of weeks, we've been

0:49:150:49:19

really proud of the public debate,

exactly the type of debate David

0:49:190:49:22

talks about, that both Zoe Ball and

Greg James have sparked about mental

0:49:220:49:28

health.

I'm always amazed about the

amount of money raised and the

0:49:280:49:35

generosity of people here. Doesn't

it prove it works? It is all very

0:49:350:49:40

well questioning whether or not it

is the right tone, or should we talk

0:49:400:49:45

about trade and dictatorship, but

this is raising money for poor parts

0:49:450:49:48

of the world and it works.

It

doesn't work if it compounds the

0:49:480:49:53

problem is. My constituents are not

am elated about Sport Relief and,

0:49:530:49:57

grief because many of them come from

African countries and they know

0:49:570:50:01

that, as Leeds University knows that

British primary school children,

0:50:010:50:07

their formative impressions of

Africa come from Red Nose Day and

0:50:070:50:10

what they talk about people who are

starving, people who are poor and

0:50:100:50:15

victims.

Are they not accurate?

We've just heard that Sport Relief

0:50:150:50:19

and Comic Relief are happy to use

British voices articulating on

0:50:190:50:23

behalf of themselves in relation to

British poverty. They don't use that

0:50:230:50:28

in relation to Africans and their

issues which is what they need to be

0:50:280:50:31

pushed on.

It is those local heroes,

albeit in Kenny or Sierra Leone,

0:50:310:50:37

that will be at the heart of the

forms we are making. They will be

0:50:370:50:42

talking about our partnerships. We

have a generational opportunity to

0:50:420:50:49

eradicate an appalling disease and

we're working with global partners

0:50:490:50:53

and local workers on the ground, and

telling their story.

The important

0:50:530:50:57

thing to remember with Comic Relief

and Sport Relief is the platform

0:50:570:51:01

they have from the BBC is immense,

no other charity gets hours and

0:51:010:51:06

hours of programming and television

to influence the dish public. No one

0:51:060:51:11

wants to knock charity but let's

remember that the dire spread

0:51:110:51:15

communities right around the world,

let's educate the public, why is it

0:51:150:51:24

when people think of Nigeria think

of somewhere that is war-torn, not

0:51:240:51:29

with downtown Lagos with huge

buildings. And what role do

0:51:290:51:35

charities play in perpetuating an

image of swollen bellies, children

0:51:350:51:38

with flies running around them? Last

time on Comic Relief, you had three

0:51:380:51:44

black children die over the hours.

You wouldn't have done that if it

0:51:440:51:47

was Britain. But it was OK because

it was a black child. That is the

0:51:470:51:52

thing we have to question.

Well, I

think it is right we continue to

0:51:520:51:58

change and evolve and we put local

voices at the heart of what we show.

0:51:580:52:02

Ed Sheeran? He isn't local, Izzy?

We

will see differences in how our

0:52:020:52:08

films are made this year. We

currently fund 1,000 different

0:52:080:52:13

charities and organisations here and

around the world and our obligation

0:52:130:52:17

is to continue raising money so we

continue that vital work to make

0:52:170:52:21

sure the money gets to people who

needed.

How is it vital if it

0:52:210:52:25

continues a perception of a kind of

imperialist colonialist... You seen

0:52:250:52:30

the problems charities have found

themselves in where there is a

0:52:300:52:34

perception of who is accountable?

How is their scrutiny? How do you

0:52:340:52:39

hold yourself up to the best of your

intentions? Those are the big issues

0:52:390:52:44

that are emerging for International

development.

And that is exactly how

0:52:440:52:48

we found grassroots organisations to

make sure that money goes where it

0:52:480:52:54

is needed most. So we seek money

from grant-making so we ensure there

0:52:540:53:01

is a strong voice in what we do.

What about the issue of trade? What

0:53:010:53:05

would you like to see governments

to?

We need a transaction tax. And I

0:53:050:53:11

think the international development

charities should be very public

0:53:110:53:14

about that. There are problems in

the ways big institutions like the

0:53:140:53:19

EU are set up that put a

stranglehold on African countries.

0:53:190:53:23

You should be up against it for

lobbing politically as well as

0:53:230:53:27

saying give money.

Would you be

comfortable doing that?

We are not a

0:53:270:53:31

political organisation and we are

proud not to be. I'm part of the

0:53:310:53:35

generation that grew up with Comic

Relief and remember the first Red

0:53:350:53:38

Nose Day back in 1988 so what we've

done is bring a whole generation of

0:53:380:53:43

people back into these issues you

haven't paid much attention before

0:53:430:53:47

and we are proud of that. And to see

how people we've inspired are

0:53:470:53:54

engaging is great. Amnesty

International have a stronger

0:53:540:53:56

political voice and they do it

better than we should.

I think that

0:53:560:54:02

relief is something we've done is a

government and we've done it in a

0:54:020:54:05

targeted manner because what we

don't want to do is giving debt

0:54:050:54:08

interest into a dictator but to a

country that is growing. David was

0:54:080:54:13

right because he talks about trade.

One of the things were doing is

0:54:130:54:17

we're rethinking our trade you

disease-mac policy. I'd like to see

0:54:170:54:23

Barry is coming down to trade with

countries like Ghana and run wonder

0:54:230:54:26

that have done and commenced amount

of reform locally and are poised to

0:54:260:54:32

exploit this link with the United

Kingdom. I'd like to see those

0:54:320:54:35

countries getting richer.

Isn't

there a problem to attaching

0:54:350:54:40

conditions to aid with the poor

parts of Africa because they may

0:54:400:54:42

have a dictator? A lot of these

countries are run by dictators and

0:54:420:54:45

you deprive the countries of the

money you need.

We should challenge

0:54:450:54:50

corruption where ever it exists but

I would say a very simple thing that

0:54:500:54:53

we could do which could help even

more than you do through charitable

0:54:530:54:57

giving and that is another amendment

to the bill we were talking about

0:54:570:55:02

earlier on money-laundering. If we

had transparency in our overseas

0:55:020:55:07

territories, our tax havens, at a

stroke you to stop money being

0:55:070:55:16

exported by those dictators into the

tax havens. These poor countries

0:55:160:55:22

lose three times as much in money

from tax avoidance as they gain in

0:55:220:55:27

development aid.

On that, thank you

for coming in.

0:55:270:55:30

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:55:300:55:33

The question was which poster have

Transport for London banned

0:55:330:55:35

from their Tube stations?

0:55:350:55:36

Was it...

0:55:360:55:38

A job advert for leader of Ukip?

0:55:380:55:39

A commercial to tempt young people

to join Conservative?

0:55:390:55:42

An advert for Corbyn memorabilia?

0:55:420:55:43

Or an attempt to entice

business people to move

0:55:430:55:45

France following Brexit?

0:55:450:55:46

So, what's the correct answer?

0:55:460:55:49

It's got to be France.

You're right!

You're so pleased with yourselves

0:55:490:55:55

and good for you.

0:55:550:55:56

Yes, a spoof lonely hearts advert

telling British businesses

0:55:560:55:58

to contact Mr Norman D

to avoid post-Brexit tariffs

0:55:580:56:03

has appeared online but banned

by Transport for London

0:56:030:56:07

on the grounds of "public

controversy or sensitivity."

0:56:070:56:09

The advert, released

by the Normandy Development Agency,

0:56:090:56:12

which promotes growth in the region

of northern France,

0:56:120:56:15

seeks "hot entrepreneurs" and boasts

"You will find the process

0:56:150:56:19

"as smooth as our Camembert

or our oysters, for that matter."

0:56:190:56:24

French journalist

Marie Le Conte is here.

0:56:240:56:29

It is actually quite funny, isn't

it? Do you think transport for

0:56:290:56:33

London has had a sense of humour

loss?

I think they did. I am

0:56:330:56:38

entirely biased on this because my

family is from Normandy, but I

0:56:380:56:42

thought it was

0:56:420:56:48

thought it was very funny. The Brits

can dish it out but can't take it,

0:56:490:56:50

clearly.

It is a light-hearted

attempt, but do you think it will

0:56:500:56:52

work?

I'm not sure and I mean it

with love. Normandy isn't the most

0:56:520:56:54

exciting bit of France.

It does seem

to be cheeky, audacious at the very

0:56:540:57:03

least. Or may be imaginative by the

local Mormon tea Council.

It is and

0:57:030:57:08

they make a valid point that there

is so much incentive for businesses

0:57:080:57:13

in the UK, and businesses might be

looking to move somewhere else, so

0:57:130:57:18

there is a real pointer.

Is it a

false promise? All this idea of

0:57:180:57:23

smooth camembert and oysters and

coastal walks. Do you think it is

0:57:230:57:30

really fake news?

I mean... Not

really. The one thing I'll say is

0:57:300:57:36

the weather is basically the same in

Normandy as in the UK so no big

0:57:360:57:40

changes there. It isn't fake news.

Businesses would be perfectly happy

0:57:400:57:45

in Normandy should they want to move

there.

Right, you two, is transport

0:57:450:57:49

for London not joining in the fun?

Or is there a serious point? I think

0:57:490:57:54

they've taken it too hard here. I

think Normandy is a fantastic place

0:57:540:57:59

freight holiday but not the centre

of business as London is. Each to

0:57:590:58:06

their own. I don't know any

camembert manufacturers in London

0:58:060:58:10

but perhaps I'm wrong. Oyster growth

is actually coming back to the

0:58:100:58:13

Thames.

What would your

counterproposal be? What would you

0:58:130:58:20

do to make sure British

entrepreneurs stay here?

I think

0:58:200:58:22

they should move to Kent.

English

cheese is coming into its own at the

0:58:220:58:27

moment so it may well be our version

of camembert is the as tasty as the

0:58:270:58:31

French but I think transport for

London have gone too far. This is

0:58:310:58:36

Brexit, we are expecting competition

with people who have been partners,

0:58:360:58:39

they are now our competitors. We

should not be surprised.

You have

0:58:390:58:45

left me hungry with camembert,

oysters and English cheese. Thank

0:58:450:58:47

you all very much.

0:58:470:58:49

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:490:58:50

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:500:58:53

I'll be here at noon tomorrow

with all the big political stories

0:58:530:58:56

of the day.

0:58:560:58:57

Do join me then.

0:58:570:58:58

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