Jo Coburn is joined by Jack Straw to discuss the diplomatic row over the Russian spy poisoning, Jeremy Corbyn's response and child sexual exploitation in Telford.
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
Tit for tat. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
Russia has said it will expel UK
diplomats "soon" in retaliation | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
to Britain expelling 23
Russian diplomats. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
With Theresa May set to visit
Salisbury later today, | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
where the former Russian double
agent and his daughter were | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
poisoned, has she gone far enough? | 0:00:51 | 0:00:59 | |
Has Jeremy Corbyn
misjudged his response | 0:00:59 | 0:01:00 | |
to the attack, after failing
to back Theresa May's decision | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
to blame Russia? | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
The Labour leader upset
some of his backbenches | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
by appearing to echo
the Moscow line that more time | 0:01:07 | 0:01:10 | |
and more evidence was needed to
prove Putin really was responsible. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
In the light of the allegations
of widespread child sexual | 0:01:12 | 0:01:17 | |
exploitation in the Shropshire town
of Telford, including cases | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
involving girls as young
as 11, we'll be speaking | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
to their MP about it. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
And how did Vladimir Putin rise
from a lowly KGB colonel | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
to become one of the world's
most powerful leaders? | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
We'll be speaking to one
of the world's leading experts | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
about power and psychology. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
All that in the next hour
and with me throughout is the former | 0:01:42 | 0:01:47 | |
Home and Foreign Secretary,
Jack Straw. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:48 | |
Welcome back to the programme. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
Thank you. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
First today, the Brexit Secretary
David Davis has indicated | 0:01:56 | 0:01:58 | |
he's willing to be flexible
on the length of the transition | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
period after the UK
leaves the EU next year. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
The British government had argued it
wanted a two year implimentation | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
period where Britain follows similar
trading rules to now to give | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
businesses time to get
ready before we leave. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
Brussels, however,
wants a shorter time. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
Here he is talking to
Newsnight's Nick Watt last night. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
I'm not bothered, too much
about the question of whether it's | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
Christmas 2020 or Easter 2021. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:23 | |
So, if it means Christmas 2020,
you'd live with that? | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
I would live with that. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:27 | |
But, this is... | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
We're still in the middle
of a negotiation but, frankly, | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
what I would not do is delay
the decision, as it were, | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
in order to get a month or two more. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:41 | |
David Davis, the Brexit secretary.
He seems pretty relaxed about the | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
timescale of the implementation
period. You can paint to remain in | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
the EU. I did. As many Labour people
dead. The sky hasn't fallen in since | 0:02:51 | 0:02:59 | |
the referendum? It hasn't. -- as
many Labour people did. We have | 0:02:59 | 0:03:04 | |
dropped to the bottom of the Labour
G20, the major industrialised | 0:03:04 | 0:03:09 | |
countries in the world. We are at
the bottom of them in terms of | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
growth. Although the predictions
made at the time of the referendum | 0:03:13 | 0:03:18 | |
the immediate problems were not
fulfilled, that's true. We were in a | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
period of a kind of phoney situation
for about a year where things just | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
carried on. There isn't any doubt
about the fact now that Brexit is | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
having a significant impact on our
output. No question about that. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
Despite that, people can point to
high levels of unemployment and low | 0:03:36 | 0:03:40 | |
levels of unemployment. But in terms
of growth, we had a trend for years | 0:03:40 | 0:03:45 | |
about 2% to 2.5%. That is down to
1.5%. That might be a small | 0:03:45 | 0:03:53 | |
percentage but it involves big
numbers. It means there is less tax | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
revenue for the government to spend.
Although tax receipts have been at. | 0:03:56 | 0:04:00 | |
But not as much as they would have
been. There is less money in | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
people's pockets. How much did
people care, people who voted to | 0:04:04 | 0:04:09 | |
leave about the big macro figures,
about whether growth is up or down | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
by a few percentage points? Despite
what you say, the Dow hasn't moved | 0:04:14 | 0:04:19 | |
that dramatically. Labour has moved
its position on the customs union, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
saying it would now like to have one
with EU. Do you think they will move | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
any further when it comes to the
single market, they have said not? I | 0:04:27 | 0:04:32 | |
doubt it. Keir Starmer, our shadow
Brexit secretary, he is somebody who | 0:04:32 | 0:04:38 | |
is very bright, good judgment and a
safe pair of hands. Yes, he has | 0:04:38 | 0:04:43 | |
moved the party's position to a
customs union. I doubt we will move | 0:04:43 | 0:04:48 | |
to the single market. The problem
that about the single market, if you | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
join it, I would like that, people
will say, why don't we rejoin the | 0:04:52 | 0:04:57 | |
EU? That is a very big question. On
your point about as the dial moved | 0:04:57 | 0:05:04 | |
on people's voting preferences, not
much by all accounts. No doubt that | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
for a lot of people who voted
Brexit, this was done out of a sense | 0:05:08 | 0:05:14 | |
that not so much about the economic
detail, but they wanted "To take | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
back control". That was very
powerful as a slogan, more than a | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
slogan. I think that tipped the
balance in the last week of the | 0:05:23 | 0:05:30 | |
campaign in favour of Brexit. Do you
think backbench Labour MPs have | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
confidence in Jeremy Corbyn's view
on the EU? His position has shifted, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:39 | |
they probably do. Keir Starmer is
the person leading that. You will | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
leave it there. -- we will leave it
there. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:48 | |
Moscow says it's still
considering how to retaliate, | 0:05:48 | 0:05:49 | |
following Britain's decision
to expel 23 Russian diplomats. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
The Russian Foreign Ministry said
measures would be implemented | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
as soon as possible. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:55 | |
This morning, the British Foreign
Secretary, Boris Johnson, | 0:05:55 | 0:05:57 | |
said international allies are key. | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
There's a global disgust
at what has happened. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:02 | |
And that's very important. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
And we will continue to make
the case to our friends and | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
allies that, as a... | 0:06:11 | 0:06:12 | |
As a committee of nations,
we need to stand up to Russia. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:18 | |
As the Foreign Secretary said,
Britain is busy building | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
an international coalition to strike
back against Russia. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
The Nato council will meet
in Brussels today to discuss | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
the Salisbury attack. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
And last night, Donald Trump's
ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, | 0:06:31 | 0:06:33 | |
gave a powerful denunciation
of Russia at a security | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
council meeting. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:37 | |
Let me make one thing clear,
from the very beginning. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
The United States stands in absolute
solidarity with Great Britain. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:44 | |
The United States believes that
Russia is responsible for the attack | 0:06:44 | 0:06:49 | |
on two people in the United Kingdom,
using a military grade nerve agent. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
Dozens of civilians and first
responders were also exposed. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:58 | |
Police officer Nick Bailey
was the first to arrive on the scene | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
and remains hospitalised
in serious condition. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:06 | |
Our thoughts and prayers
go out to the victims | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
of this atrocious crime. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:12 | |
And beyond the United States,
leaders around the world have | 0:07:12 | 0:07:14 | |
been quick to react. | 0:07:14 | 0:07:16 | |
Germany's new Foreign Minister Heiko
Maas said: | 0:07:16 | 0:07:21 | |
"We take the assessment
of the British government | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
Moscow should be ready
to be transparent ... | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
And it is clear this cannot go
without consequences." | 0:07:27 | 0:07:29 | |
Canadian Prime Minister,
Justin Trudeau, | 0:07:29 | 0:07:31 | |
was clear who was responsible. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:32 | |
He said: | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
"The attack is despicable... | 0:07:36 | 0:07:37 | |
Russia's likely
involvement in this is also | 0:07:37 | 0:07:38 | |
absolutely unacceptable | 0:07:38 | 0:07:39 | |
and needs to be condemned
in the strongest terms." | 0:07:39 | 0:07:41 | |
And, despite some innitial reticence
yesterday to blame Russia, | 0:07:41 | 0:07:44 | |
French President Emmanuel Macron
said this morning: | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
"France agrees
with the United Kingdom | 0:07:48 | 0:07:49 | |
that there is no other plausible
explanation and reiterates | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
its solidarity with its ally." | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
Joining us now is former
British ambassador | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
to Russia Sir Tony Brenton,
and Russian journalist | 0:07:57 | 0:07:59 | |
Tonia Samsanova. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:05 | |
Welcome to both of you. Tony, you
were Russian ambassador in 2006, | 0:08:05 | 0:08:13 | |
that was when Alexander Litvinenko
was poisoned. After his death, there | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
were also expressions of support
from world leaders, European | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
leaders. Did they follow through
with any meaningful action? Jack, I | 0:08:21 | 0:08:27 | |
had the privilege of working for him
for many years, can I greet him? You | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
may. We got lots of warm words from
the Americans and our European | 0:08:30 | 0:08:36 | |
allies after the Alexander
Litvinenko murder. The Americans | 0:08:36 | 0:08:42 | |
were willing to follow through with
substantive action, we played with | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
the idea of throwing out a rush of
the G8. The Europeans were much more | 0:08:45 | 0:08:50 | |
disappointing, warm words but not
much else. -- throwing Russia out. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:55 | |
Will that be the case this time
round despite the declarations of | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
support that we had from the likes
of Germany and now France? I hope | 0:08:58 | 0:09:04 | |
not. The political context is
different, Russia has sunk to the | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
bottom of the international league
table in terms of trust in | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
popularity. The EU already extensive
sanctions against Russia. I am sure | 0:09:10 | 0:09:17 | |
we are working very hard saying what
happened in Salisbury ten days ago | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
could easily happen in Frankfurt or
Avignon tomorrow. There are obvious | 0:09:20 | 0:09:26 | |
things EU Ken Duke, most notably
when you its own sanctions on Russia | 0:09:26 | 0:09:31 | |
-- can do, most notably. For an
extended period. We are working hard | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
to do that. Is this what Vladimir
Putin wants? What is the motivation | 0:09:35 | 0:09:41 | |
behind what people call the level of
distrust, disruption and deflection | 0:09:41 | 0:09:46 | |
by Moscow? I regret to say that I
think that what is going on is the | 0:09:46 | 0:09:51 | |
best present for Vladimir Putin
before the elections on this Sunday | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
held in Moscow. Putin's campaign is
based on the theory that Russia is | 0:09:55 | 0:10:01 | |
surrounded by enemies and the
European countries and the United | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
States are in a situation where they
want to invade Russia and they | 0:10:04 | 0:10:09 | |
present a real threat to the country
and he is the only leader that can | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
do something with it. Before the
Salisbury accident, there was no | 0:10:12 | 0:10:17 | |
hint that anybody in the United
Kingdom or in France actually cares | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
about invading Russia. But now, when
we have ministers and all sorts of, | 0:10:21 | 0:10:28 | |
like, very high-profile defence
ministers and foreign leaders saying | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
that Russia should be punished or we
should reunite against Russia the | 0:10:31 | 0:10:35 | |
only thing the propaganda channel
needs to do is transcript it, | 0:10:35 | 0:10:41 | |
translated into Russian and show it
before election day. That is the | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
problem, Tony. You said yourself the
political situation is different, | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
the level of mistrust is much
greater. But actually there is still | 0:10:48 | 0:10:53 | |
a massive leap between what Tonia is
said, Russia was being ignored | 0:10:53 | 0:11:00 | |
largely, there was no tough action
talk, bearing -- bearing in mind | 0:11:00 | 0:11:05 | |
their actions in Syria, the
annexation of Crimea and involvement | 0:11:05 | 0:11:09 | |
in the Ukraine but this attack in
Salisbury is a game change in your | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
mind? Absolutely. Tonia is right.
Putin was always going to win those | 0:11:13 | 0:11:19 | |
elections even though this
reinforces his victory. She is also | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
right that in the west, we will have
to find ways of getting tensions | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
with Russia down. We are on the edge
of a new Cold War. We all remember | 0:11:27 | 0:11:33 | |
how dangerous and expensive the old
one was. That is expensive but long | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
term. Immediately, we need to
demonstrate the Russians that | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
outrageous attacks such as that that
took place in Salisbury ten days ago | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
cannot be permitted and the
international community will react. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
Tonia? It depends on what British
society and Pollard wants to | 0:11:47 | 0:11:54 | |
achieve. If you want to persuade
your people that Russia is bringing | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
a nerve threat to the citizens of
this country and no such kind of | 0:11:58 | 0:12:02 | |
attack on this soil can happen there
is one way to do it -- British | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
society and Parliament wants to
achieve. If the goal that you want | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
to achieve is to punish them and say
this cannot happen any time soon or | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
you can't do that, then there it is
different sorts of actions that | 0:12:13 | 0:12:17 | |
could be implemented. Obviously, as
a Russian citizen, I feel extremely | 0:12:17 | 0:12:25 | |
sorry for the British people, for
the fact that probably my country | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
did that to you. I feel really bad
about that and I feel ashamed of | 0:12:28 | 0:12:34 | |
that. But on the other hand, we are
dealing with the government, which | 0:12:34 | 0:12:39 | |
has some buttons which you should
push on. Why are you not doing that? | 0:12:39 | 0:12:44 | |
Right. Instead, I am a mother of
three children, I don't want a new | 0:12:44 | 0:12:50 | |
war to happen. Why would we extend
the attention now? Are we on the | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
edge of a new Cold War we already in
it? As Tony suggested, we are on the | 0:12:54 | 0:13:01 | |
edge. Tonia, no one is threatening
invasion of Russia. To point out, is | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
the only country that has been
invaded in Europe recently, Ukraine, | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
was invaded by Russia, not by the
west. I wanted to ask you, you are | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
suggesting that this poisoning in
Salisbury has played into Putin's | 0:13:14 | 0:13:20 | |
hands, do you think that was one of
the motives of those in the GR you | 0:13:20 | 0:13:25 | |
who organised it in order to help
Putin? -- in the GRU. I can only | 0:13:25 | 0:13:32 | |
speculate. I don't have evidence or
clues but one of the explanations | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
I've find reasonable, we have to
bear in mind that the Kremlin | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
administration and GRU are parties
of the Russian government. They | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
don't like each other. GRU don't
like the Foreign Office. They think | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
of others, they don't speak to each
other. They can't possibly | 0:13:48 | 0:13:56 | |
coordinate things. I am absolutely
sure that probably Mr Lavrov, the | 0:13:56 | 0:14:03 | |
Foreign Secretary and even the head
of the Kremlin knew from the news | 0:14:03 | 0:14:08 | |
and the embassy that actually
something happened in Salisbury. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
Because they don't brief each other.
Thinking that GRU would be thinking | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
about the elections is quite
unlikely to happen. Because it's not | 0:14:16 | 0:14:21 | |
their responsibility. But they all
work in silos. We talked about | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
Sergey Lavrov having a certain
amount of influence but how far does | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
that go. Sergey Lavrov is a very
distinguished and experienced | 0:14:28 | 0:14:33 | |
international diplomat but he's not
part of the so-called St Petersburg | 0:14:33 | 0:14:38 | |
Mafia. Tony knows about that. He is
not part of the inner clique. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
Because of the intelligence agencies
in Russia, he would have had no | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
knowledge of all... He has to react.
He is a spokesman for these | 0:14:45 | 0:14:51 | |
purposes. Looking ahead, Tony, we
had news that the Nato chief is | 0:14:51 | 0:14:56 | |
going to meet Boris Johnson again.
Part of Britain's attempts to build | 0:14:56 | 0:15:02 | |
some sort of coalition. Again,
beyond invoking article five, which | 0:15:02 | 0:15:07 | |
we have already heard from Nato that
it feels this is the right moment | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
for that, what else could there be?
I have said what the EU could be | 0:15:10 | 0:15:16 | |
doing in renewing and extending
sanctions. We will introduce | 0:15:16 | 0:15:22 | |
measures against Russian with
illicit money in London and I hope | 0:15:22 | 0:15:27 | |
the Americans and others will note
the names we have got and will act | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
similarly. There is a cluster of
things like that. The key target of | 0:15:30 | 0:15:35 | |
our actions has been and this comes
back to something Tonia was saying | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
has been the GRU. We have kicked out
23 people from the Russian Embassy | 0:15:39 | 0:15:46 | |
who were certainly agents of two key
Russian intelligence agencies. The | 0:15:46 | 0:15:52 | |
aim of that is to severely damage
their ability to operate in London | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
and I imagine that the extent of the
expulsions have come as a shock to | 0:15:56 | 0:16:01 | |
the Russians, the aim being to
discourage them from doing this | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
again. I'm sure we will be
communicating with the Americans and | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
the Europeans these names and
encouraging them to get tougher on | 0:16:09 | 0:16:14 | |
the Russian intelligence presences
in their countries. Before I get | 0:16:14 | 0:16:20 | |
Tonia's response as to how hard that
will have hit Russia, people will | 0:16:20 | 0:16:25 | |
say, why did we have so many spies
here in the first place. Why weren't | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
they kicked out earlier? The answer
is we don't let people we know to be | 0:16:29 | 0:16:40 | |
spies in, but patterns of behaviour
emerge that lead us to conclude | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
they're spies. If you kick them out,
they will then kick one of our | 0:16:44 | 0:16:49 | |
people out. Their kicking out
innocent diplomats from Moscow. So | 0:16:49 | 0:16:55 | |
in a sense you're stuck with them.
Are you surprised there hasn't been | 0:16:55 | 0:17:01 | |
a public retaliation, apart from the
scorn from Moscow and from Vladimir | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
Putin. They say there will be
retaliation. Should we be expecting | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
it iminnocently? Sni -- Imminently.
They'll retaliate a roughly similar | 0:17:09 | 0:17:19 | |
number of diplomats. I'm sure
they're working on the list. The | 0:17:19 | 0:17:26 | |
worrying thought is they're so angry
with the UK that they will go beyond | 0:17:26 | 0:17:31 | |
the steps that we have taken and we
are then in an escalating cycle of | 0:17:31 | 0:17:39 | |
mutual reprisals. I hope that is not
the situation. But that is what we | 0:17:39 | 0:17:46 | |
will have to watch. I can't agree
Russia is angry with the UK, Russia | 0:17:46 | 0:17:52 | |
got what she wanted. There will be
no attendance at the World | 0:17:52 | 0:17:58 | |
Championship, but the UK didn't
impose any sanctions that would be | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
harmful. Like seizing property here
or saying to the elite close to | 0:18:01 | 0:18:06 | |
Vladimir Putin you can't come here,
would that hurt? That would hurt. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
The only thing that Vladimir Putin
cares about is his close cronies who | 0:18:10 | 0:18:16 | |
live here. For me it is like easy to
say that, they're all people with | 0:18:16 | 0:18:22 | |
illegal assets here and who just
take money from Russia and park them | 0:18:22 | 0:18:27 | |
here and buy properties here and I
know generally the British public is | 0:18:27 | 0:18:32 | |
not happy with that. When you say
Russia is angry with the British | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
reaction, it is not true. When
you're watching this on state TV and | 0:18:36 | 0:18:44 | |
they're produced for domestic use.
When you see somebody is insulting, | 0:18:44 | 0:18:50 | |
it shows how strong he is towards
his domestic audience. When I see | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
British... Politicians talking the
same way, I'm surprised, because I | 0:18:54 | 0:19:01 | |
don't want Russia to teach the world
how diplomacy should be like this. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
Well in the United States in the
midsts of the reactions, we heard | 0:19:06 | 0:19:12 | |
the US Secretary of State, Rex
Tillerson had been dismissed. What | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
impact will that have on a different
bit of foreign policy, the Iran | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
deal? It could have a serious
impact. President Trump mentioned | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
Iran as one of the points of
disagreement between him and Rex | 0:19:27 | 0:19:34 | |
Tillerson. I don't know Mr Pompeo,
but I have spoke to people who know | 0:19:34 | 0:19:39 | |
him and they say this is a man who
is very bright and interested in | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
foreign policy and he is open to
arguments. The problem about the | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
Iran deal is it... He claims
President Trump is a good deal for | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
Iran. It is. But a lot of benefits
have not been delivered by the west. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
It is a very good deal for the west,
because it is a non-proliferation, | 0:19:58 | 0:20:04 | |
an arms control. But Trump doesn't
like it. We think he doesn't like it | 0:20:04 | 0:20:09 | |
for the reason that Obama agreed it
and not for any other reason. I hope | 0:20:09 | 0:20:16 | |
and pray that the rationale argument
that it is in America's interest | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
will work and that Russia, China,
France, Germany and the United | 0:20:19 | 0:20:23 | |
Kingdom are all very clear that the
deal has to stay. The United States | 0:20:23 | 0:20:29 | |
has got to take account of that. We
are going to leave it there. Thank | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
you very much. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:36 | |
Has Jeremy Corbyn
misjudged his response | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
to the Salisbury attack? | 0:20:38 | 0:20:39 | |
The Labour leader received fierce
criticism from Conservatives | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
and some of his own MPs
after he failed to back | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
Theresa May's decision to directly
blame the Russian state. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:50 | |
Our response as a country must be
guided by the rule of law, support | 0:20:51 | 0:20:57 | |
for international agreements and
respect for human rights. So when it | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
comes to the use of chemical weapons
on British soil, it is essential | 0:21:01 | 0:21:07 | |
that the Government works with the
UN to strengthen its monitoring | 0:21:07 | 0:21:13 | |
system and involves the office of
the prohibition of chemical weapons. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
The Prime Minister said on Monday,
either was a direct act by the | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
Russian state or the Russian
Government lost control of their | 0:21:21 | 0:21:27 | |
potentially catastrophically
damaging nerve agent and allowed it | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
to get into the hands of others. Our
response must be decisive and | 0:21:30 | 0:21:36 | |
proportionate and based on clear
evidence. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:40 | |
Yvette Cooper, who chairs
the Home Affairs Select Committee, | 0:21:40 | 0:21:42 | |
was among those who spoke to condemn
Russia's actions. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:46 | |
Can I welcome the Prime Minister's
statement, her conclusion | 0:21:46 | 0:21:52 | |
about the culpability of the Russian
state is an immensely serious one? | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
And that, in addition
to their breaches of international | 0:21:55 | 0:21:57 | |
law, of the use of chemical weapons,
but also their continued | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
disregard for the rule of law
and for human rights must be met | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
with unequivocal condemnation. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
A group of backbench MPs have put
down a Commons motion supporting | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
the Prime Minister's position,
praising her actions rather | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
than those of their party leader. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:14 | |
We're joined now by
Labour MP John Woodcock. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:22 | |
And a journalist. Let's talk about
why were you so unhappy with what | 0:22:24 | 0:22:31 | |
Jeremy Corbyn said? Well I think
what you saw yesterday was not a | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
group of MPs who were standing up
and criticising our leader, but we | 0:22:35 | 0:22:41 | |
thought it was important to put what
we thought was the right position to | 0:22:41 | 0:22:49 | |
be unequivocal in our support with
the Government against this threat | 0:22:49 | 0:22:53 | |
and accept the culpability of the
Russian state. What you had in the | 0:22:53 | 0:22:57 | |
statement and then after it in
briefing that was given by Jeremy | 0:22:57 | 0:23:02 | |
Corbyn's spokesman was a different
picture and so given what was said | 0:23:02 | 0:23:06 | |
after the statement, we thought it
was... It is important to be, for us | 0:23:06 | 0:23:12 | |
all to be clear at a time when the
UK has been attacked using chemical | 0:23:12 | 0:23:18 | |
weapons by a foreign state that
there should be no doubt what the | 0:23:18 | 0:23:24 | |
vast majority of Labour MPs think.
Did you want to hear Jeremy Corbyn | 0:23:24 | 0:23:29 | |
say and condemn the Russian state
for the Salisbury attack? Of course. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
I want to see every single member of
Parliament doing that, because I | 0:23:32 | 0:23:38 | |
think it is our responsibility in
this circumstances to take that | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
action. I was heartened yesterday
that nearly every MP, including | 0:23:42 | 0:23:55 | |
every party leader, including
Caroline Lucas of Greens accepted | 0:23:55 | 0:24:01 | |
Russian culpability. So we have had
our shadow Defence Secretary being | 0:24:01 | 0:24:06 | |
clear on this today as well. Which
is also helpful. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:15 | |
is also helpful. They seem to need
to clarify the position of Jeremy | 0:24:15 | 0:24:19 | |
Corbyn, because there was criticism
of Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman who | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
referred to the problematic history
of the use of UK intelligence. Why | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
do they want to focus on that,
rather than Russia. I don't think | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
they did. Jeremy Corbyn repeated
what Theresa May said before. He has | 0:24:32 | 0:24:38 | |
been unequivocal in ensuring etch
knows as long as the evidence backs | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
this up, they will take action. What
is more interesting is there is a | 0:24:42 | 0:24:47 | |
clear outcome we need to see, not
just the expulsion of diplomats or | 0:24:47 | 0:24:54 | |
sanctions, but looking at the way
Russia will be hit, which is in the | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
City and money laundering. And that
is what we should be talking about. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:05 | |
Instead we are talking about the
exact wording of statements made in | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
Parliament. Hang on, you can't avoid
the fact that Jeremy Corbyn's view | 0:25:08 | 0:25:17 | |
was equivocal and he was saying we
need the evidence. I don't know | 0:25:17 | 0:25:20 | |
whether you saw this. We have had a
Russian journalist plugged into | 0:25:20 | 0:25:27 | |
Moscow who completely accepted that
this was the responsibility of the | 0:25:27 | 0:25:33 | |
main Russian intelligence agency,
the GRU. There was no equivocation | 0:25:33 | 0:25:37 | |
from here and she said it worked in
the interests of Russia. I think | 0:25:37 | 0:25:43 | |
Jeremy Corbyn actually made an error
in suggesting we needed more | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
evidence. Listen, I have got the
scars about the intelligence failure | 0:25:47 | 0:25:51 | |
over Iraq. But that was... A very
different. Because there we knew | 0:25:51 | 0:25:56 | |
that Saddam had had the stuff and
the question was did he still have | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
it. Here is there no doubt this
nerve agent was yuzed and this this | 0:26:00 | 0:26:06 | |
nerve agent came from a Russian
laboratory. So Russia was given then | 0:26:06 | 0:26:11 | |
a period to say, well, did you use
it or has it come out of your | 0:26:11 | 0:26:16 | |
control? They failed to answer that.
I think Theresa May was right to | 0:26:16 | 0:26:21 | |
come to the conclusion that she did.
I think it was a generous to a fault | 0:26:21 | 0:26:26 | |
for the Prime Minister to leave open
the option that this was in some way | 0:26:26 | 0:26:32 | |
Russia losing track of its agents.
We have seen over the last ten years | 0:26:32 | 0:26:38 | |
an absolutely clear pattern and we
will, this is not the time to dwell | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
too much on this, but actually there
will be a time to look at the UK | 0:26:41 | 0:26:47 | |
Government's action in the last ten
years which has been really at times | 0:26:47 | 0:26:51 | |
to turn a blind eye to similar
incidents. But the question here was | 0:26:51 | 0:26:56 | |
whether you could make a definitive
judgment on who was to blame, Jeremy | 0:26:56 | 0:27:01 | |
Corbyn seemed to leave the door open
in the way zwrabg straw said and -- | 0:27:01 | 0:27:07 | |
Jack Straw said and said we should
be cautious about making that | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
judgment. What other plausible
explanation could there be. What do | 0:27:10 | 0:27:16 | |
you think? There is in their minds a
possibility that it could have been | 0:27:16 | 0:27:20 | |
someone other than the Russian
state. What is that plausible | 0:27:20 | 0:27:26 | |
explanation? Jeremy Corbyn and the
Labour and colleagues have said as | 0:27:26 | 0:27:30 | |
long adds we as we have the evidence
we will take action. Jeremy Corbyn | 0:27:30 | 0:27:37 | |
said the same yesterday. But we have
international obligations to the | 0:27:37 | 0:27:42 | |
international community and Europe
and abroad to make sure we follow | 0:27:42 | 0:27:48 | |
certain procedures, not jumping to
conclusions. So you don't want to | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
jump to the conclusion it was the
Russian state. I think it was. Do | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
you think Jeremy Corbyn believes
that? I'm not the next Prime | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
Minister of this country and don't
have obligationses to follow | 0:28:00 | 0:28:05 | |
protocol. I feel uncomfortable being
lectured. Jack if you see the | 0:28:05 | 0:28:12 | |
Chilcot report was told he was
hiding certain documents. Hang on a | 0:28:12 | 0:28:17 | |
second, I was responsible for one of
people responsible for the decision | 0:28:17 | 0:28:21 | |
to go to war in Iraq 15 years ago.
Chilcot said nothing that I hidden | 0:28:21 | 0:28:30 | |
documents. They disagreed with the
process we used, there was no | 0:28:30 | 0:28:35 | |
suggestion about my bad faith. Let
make that clear. Do you think there | 0:28:35 | 0:28:39 | |
is a reason to be cautious until we
know and until we have the evidence, | 0:28:39 | 0:28:43 | |
if we could ever get that evidence?
There was a reason to be cautious, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:51 | |
is why Theresa May took her time. On
Sunday I was on the BBC and I said | 0:28:51 | 0:28:55 | |
the Government needs to be cautious
about this, not least because of | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
experience over Iraq. But the result
of that caution is there is now | 0:28:58 | 0:29:05 | |
evidence about the origin of this
nerve agent. At the time, the | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
evidence is there, it is good enough
for a Russian journalist as well as | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
politicians. Why not for the leader
of opposition. The outcome will be | 0:29:14 | 0:29:19 | |
Russia will be held responsible. We
are talking about the Labour | 0:29:19 | 0:29:25 | |
leader's reaction, do you think he
was explicit enough? In my opinion, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:30 | |
we have people who have been proved
wrong on policy and Jeremy Corbyn | 0:29:30 | 0:29:36 | |
has been found right on Iraq and
Turkey. Is the answer is yes you did | 0:29:36 | 0:29:45 | |
support his response? Sure. What do
you say? I think reasons to be | 0:29:45 | 0:29:52 | |
confident is that the overwhelming
majority of MPs in this country are | 0:29:52 | 0:29:57 | |
behind the Government's stance. The
majority of countries beyond that. | 0:29:57 | 0:30:01 | |
I'm asking about Jeremy Corbyn. I
know. I think it is important to set | 0:30:01 | 0:30:07 | |
it in context. I do, Jeremy Corbyn
is very influential and what he has | 0:30:07 | 0:30:12 | |
been able to do in gathering
hundreds of thousands of supporters, | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
they do listen to him and I think
that it was unfortunate that for | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
the, some of the last 24 hours there
seemed to be an alignment between | 0:30:20 | 0:30:27 | |
his spokesman and the disinformation
coming from the Kremlin. There is an | 0:30:27 | 0:30:33 | |
opportunity for him to follow the
lead of our shadow Defence Secretary | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
and make clear that we see Russia to
be unequivocally responsible for | 0:30:37 | 0:30:45 | |
this chemical weapons attack. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:50 | |
Isn't that where the focus should
be? We will look at pictures of | 0:30:50 | 0:30:54 | |
Theresa May in Salisbury at the
moment. It is such a shame and | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
unforgivable that at a time where we
are at a crisis of international | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
diplomacy. Rather than trying to
hold the government accountable to | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
make sure they take affirmative and
quick action, John Isner Miliband | 0:31:04 | 0:31:08 | |
Jeremy Corbyn who has time and time
again been proven right. This | 0:31:08 | 0:31:13 | |
government is a shambles. Boris
Johnson is not taken seriously by | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
anyone around the world. We will
have a look at these pictures. The | 0:31:16 | 0:31:25 | |
Prime Minister Theresa May is in
Salisbury where the attack happened | 0:31:25 | 0:31:27 | |
against Sergei Skripal and his
daughter Julia who were found | 0:31:27 | 0:31:29 | |
slumped on a bench. She's meeting
local businesses and representatives | 0:31:29 | 0:31:34 | |
from Public Health England. The
advice came out to people who were | 0:31:34 | 0:31:36 | |
in the vicinity of where Sergei
Skripal and his daughter was found | 0:31:36 | 0:31:42 | |
slumped, wash their clothes and take
precautions although the risk was | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
very low. Answer Michael's comments. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
At the privilege of being elected to
Parliament, as I don't know whether | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
one day you might wish to do, you
have to take a judgment on | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
everything. But most importantly on
matters of national security, what | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
do you think is the right thing to
protect your citizens? What is the | 0:32:05 | 0:32:10 | |
right thing to uphold international
law? All of us have not come in this | 0:32:10 | 0:32:15 | |
with, how does it fit into the
internal prism of a Labour dynamic. | 0:32:15 | 0:32:20 | |
We have thought that the Russian
state has, for many years, has been | 0:32:20 | 0:32:25 | |
culpable of attacks on our soil, of
flagrant violations. Therefore it is | 0:32:25 | 0:32:30 | |
the right thing to back the Prime
Minister. I want everybody else to | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
do that and I want Jeremy to do
that. That is our focus, doing what | 0:32:34 | 0:32:40 | |
we think is right. If Jeremy Corbyn
were to become Prime Minister, do | 0:32:40 | 0:32:45 | |
you have confidence in his security?
It is valid but not one I will get | 0:32:45 | 0:32:50 | |
into at the moment. Rightly, the
focus is on the package of measures | 0:32:50 | 0:32:54 | |
that the UK Government is setting
forward and how should we respond. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:59 | |
Would you have faith in him being in
charge of national security? It | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
needs to do some thinking before I
have that faith. That's the problem | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
is the Jeremy has sometimes been
right about his position on | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
international issues of conflict.
But sometimes, overwhelmingly wrong | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
because my recollection is, I could
be incorrect about this, he was | 0:33:16 | 0:33:21 | |
opposed to the invasion of
Afghanistan in the light of 9/11 and | 0:33:21 | 0:33:26 | |
he was wrong about that. He was
opposed to the first Gulf War and he | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
was wrong about that. He was opposed
to action in Kosovo and he was wrong | 0:33:29 | 0:33:35 | |
about that. You need to make
judgments rather than every case | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
where you are faced with a really
difficult decision and ask for more | 0:33:38 | 0:33:42 | |
information and more evidence.
Sometimes you have to make these | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
decisions on the basis of inadequate
evidence. But we are blessed by the | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
fact that the evidence is forensic
and very clear. Thank you. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:54 | |
One of the ways Russia
could make life | 0:33:54 | 0:33:56 | |
difficult is supplying gas. | 0:33:56 | 0:33:59 | |
Or stopping the supply of gas. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:01 | |
So just how reliant is the UK -
and Europe - on Russian gas? | 0:34:01 | 0:34:05 | |
To discuss this, I'm
joined by energy expert, | 0:34:05 | 0:34:07 | |
Professor Jim Watson. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:08 | |
He's the Director of the UK
Energy Research Centre | 0:34:08 | 0:34:10 | |
and a Professor of Energy Policy
at the University of Sussex. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
Welcome. How reliant are we on
Russian gas? Not very reliant at all | 0:34:13 | 0:34:20 | |
in the case of the UK. Roughly less
than 5% on average in a year of our | 0:34:20 | 0:34:26 | |
gas comes from Russia is mainly via
pipelines that connect the UK to | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
Belgium and the Netherlands. What
about Europe? In general it is much | 0:34:30 | 0:34:35 | |
higher and as you go closer to the
Russian border, from west to east, | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
countries like Germany and Poland
and other countries that use gas | 0:34:38 | 0:34:43 | |
will use more Russian gas and that
will tend to come via pipeline | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
systems. Some countries are almost
wholly dependent on Russian gas via | 0:34:46 | 0:34:51 | |
a single pipeline. The vulnerability
changes from west to east. As a | 0:34:51 | 0:34:56 | |
result of that, Germany approved a
multi-billion dollar gas pipeline to | 0:34:56 | 0:35:00 | |
Europe. When it comes to asking for
support from our allies, will they | 0:35:00 | 0:35:05 | |
have to think carefully before they
do anything that is too explicit in | 0:35:05 | 0:35:10 | |
terms of condemning Russia because
then they suffered themselves? I | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
think that is right. -- they may
suffer. It has been hard for the EU | 0:35:14 | 0:35:18 | |
to have a concerted and coordinate
response on energy and security | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
questions with respect to gas in
Russia because the member states | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
have different interests. The UK, we
have lots of other sources of gas | 0:35:25 | 0:35:30 | |
and flexibility compared to the
interests of Germany or some of the | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
new Eastern European states are very
different. Having that combined | 0:35:33 | 0:35:38 | |
agreement for strong action will be
tough. The flip side, if we're not | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
that reliant on Russian gas, Theresa
May says will look to other | 0:35:42 | 0:35:47 | |
countries to provide gas will not
hurt Russia. No, we already look to | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
other countries. About half of the
gas we get, perhaps a bit more, is | 0:35:50 | 0:35:55 | |
now imported. Our biggest source of
imports is Norway, which has been a | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
very reliable source of imports,
with some problems of undersea | 0:35:58 | 0:36:03 | |
pipelines occasionally and liquid
gas which mainly comes from Qatar. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:07 | |
The Russian gas element is quite
small. We have that diversification | 0:36:07 | 0:36:11 | |
already. We need to think about,
particularly in response to the cold | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
weather we have had recently, have
we got enough flexibility in our gas | 0:36:14 | 0:36:20 | |
system and gas storage? I would look
to that if we want to strengthen the | 0:36:20 | 0:36:24 | |
resilience of our gas system and
protect us from future shocks. | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
Strengthening our resources. What
about more broadly, energy security | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
in the future, is that a big threat
to us? Gas is one of the areas where | 0:36:32 | 0:36:37 | |
people have traditionally worried.
There are things we can do about it | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
but oil or electricity, you have
very different discussions. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:45 | |
Electricity, the big issue is that
we have a much changing electricity | 0:36:45 | 0:36:50 | |
system. Renewable energy coming onto
the system and the need to run that | 0:36:50 | 0:36:55 | |
flexibility, more flexibly. Power
stations play a role. A different | 0:36:55 | 0:37:02 | |
conversation in respect of oil, we
have different places we rely on oil | 0:37:02 | 0:37:07 | |
from an international relations. I
always come back to making sure we | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
have flexibility and resilience
arrangements, enough storage, naff | 0:37:10 | 0:37:15 | |
arrangements with large industrial
countries to make sure that if we | 0:37:15 | 0:37:17 | |
have a really tight spot like we did
in the recent cold weather, they can | 0:37:17 | 0:37:21 | |
turn down demand in response to
things that we have. Thank you. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:27 | |
Police in the Shropshire town
of Telford are working with several | 0:37:27 | 0:37:31 | |
dozen girls who are either victims
of child sexual exploitation, or | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
thought to be at risk of grooming. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:36 | |
The Sunday Mirror said it uncovered
Britain's "worst ever" child | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
grooming scandal at the weekend,
with up to 1,000 girls abused | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
by grooming gangs since the 1980s. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
The town's MP Lucy Allan said
girls were being traded | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
for sex in a "routine way". | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
One victim, "Holly", spoke
anonymously to Victoria Derbyshire | 0:37:50 | 0:37:52 | |
about her abuse at the hand
of gangs in the town. | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
He started violently raping me. | 0:37:56 | 0:38:00 | |
He'd beat me with his
belt, and things, | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
if I didn't agree
to let him rape me. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:10 | |
And then he would try to make me
feel better, or make himself feel | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
better, I guess, by trying
to give me money or, yeah, top up my | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
phone, and things, again. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:20 | |
From that man, it
moved on to many men. | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
Like, it was about seven
abusers, in the end. | 0:38:23 | 0:38:31 | |
So you were passed around or they
would all turn up en masse? They | 0:38:32 | 0:38:38 | |
would be whoever caught me first,
whoever saw me walking home from | 0:38:38 | 0:38:43 | |
school first or walking to my
friends' house. Distressing | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
testimony. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:47 | |
Joining us now is the
Conservative MP for Telford, | 0:38:47 | 0:38:49 | |
Lucy Allan and from Cardiff,
the former chief prosecutor | 0:38:49 | 0:38:51 | |
for North West England Nazir Afzal. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:52 | |
Welcome. Lucy, the investigation by
the daily Mirror reveals, as far as | 0:38:52 | 0:39:01 | |
they are concerned, allegations on a
massive scale. The police are | 0:39:01 | 0:39:05 | |
disputing the scale, the numbers
involved, saying they are working | 0:39:05 | 0:39:08 | |
with several dozen girls and
officers, what is your belief? We | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
know that many victims do not come
forward. Sometimes they feel it is | 0:39:12 | 0:39:16 | |
their fault, that they were somehow
to blame. They are afraid of | 0:39:16 | 0:39:19 | |
retaliation. The police numbers will
never reflect the full-scale of the | 0:39:19 | 0:39:25 | |
incidence of this crime. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:30 | |
This is a pattern that,
unfortunately and tragically, seems | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
to be repeating itself. Do you
recognise the pattern that has gone | 0:39:34 | 0:39:37 | |
on here in terms of the abuse and
abused children not being believed? | 0:39:37 | 0:39:43 | |
Good afternoon. Absolutely. I have
been talking about this for almost a | 0:39:43 | 0:39:47 | |
decade after Rochdale and leading
nationally for four or five years on | 0:39:47 | 0:39:52 | |
this issue. There is nowhere in this
country where this abuse isn't | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
taking place. Men are being
predators and picking on very abused | 0:39:56 | 0:40:02 | |
girls, chaotic and troubled in their
backgrounds who are somehow left | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
behind. Who are just not listened
to. They have a voice but not | 0:40:05 | 0:40:10 | |
listened to by authorities. In terms
of numbers, following on from what | 0:40:10 | 0:40:14 | |
Lucy said a moment ago, absolutely
right. They will rarely report, they | 0:40:14 | 0:40:20 | |
are difficult cases to prosecute
because very often Stockholm | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
syndrome sets in, they feel to
protect themselves they should not | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
talk to anybody about what they have
been through. We are talking about | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
hundreds if not thousands across the
country and pretty much in every | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
town and city in the United Kingdom
will have such a network. One of the | 0:40:35 | 0:40:38 | |
claims in the investigation is that
the council 's labelling abused | 0:40:38 | 0:40:44 | |
children as prostitutes, for
example, they are not believing what | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
the victims, alleged victims, were
saying. What has been the council's | 0:40:48 | 0:40:53 | |
response Lucy? That is a historic
approach, I don't think people now | 0:40:53 | 0:41:02 | |
refer to victims of child sexual
exploitation as prostitutes, which | 0:41:02 | 0:41:04 | |
is a good step forward. But there is
an element of they may have indulged | 0:41:04 | 0:41:08 | |
in risky behaviour, they have made
-- they may have brought it on | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
themselves. A lot of the victims
feel that, "It was my fault, I did | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
get in a car with this man, I did
send him an image of myself, and he | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
has now used that to threaten me and
coerce me into sex with him and his | 0:41:20 | 0:41:26 | |
friends". There is an internalised
sense of shame. That stops victims | 0:41:26 | 0:41:31 | |
from coming forward. Jack, do you
recognise, again, the pattern of | 0:41:31 | 0:41:35 | |
what has happened because of your
own experiences? Is of course I | 0:41:35 | 0:41:40 | |
recognise it. Although no one has
mentioned it this morning, abuse of | 0:41:40 | 0:41:49 | |
young girls, typically, bind men has
no ethnic boundaries, but this | 0:41:49 | 0:41:53 | |
particular kind of gang abuse is
particular, I'm sorry to say but it | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
is just true, is particularly
prevalent amongst the Pakistani | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
heritage community. Not the Indian
heritage community, is or | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
Bangladeshi, there is a bit of that.
Something wrong inside the culture | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
of some Pakistanis and their groups.
We have had examples of this in my | 0:42:10 | 0:42:17 | |
former constituency where I am still
heavily involved in local matters. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:24 | |
Happily, in Blackburn, because there
have been very good coordination | 0:42:24 | 0:42:27 | |
between the police and social
services, we didn't have any | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
cover-ups of what was going on. We
were able to nip it in the bud but | 0:42:31 | 0:42:36 | |
in an adjacent town, including
Rochdale, and across the Pennines in | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
Rotherham, you have had these
terrible examples. Where the social | 0:42:40 | 0:42:44 | |
services and the police really
covered their eyes at what was going | 0:42:44 | 0:42:50 | |
on with disastrous consequences. Do
you see that happening here in | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
Telford? This racial element that,
again, mainly involving Asian men or | 0:42:53 | 0:42:59 | |
Pakistani heritage. Do you recognise
that? We grooming gangs are, without | 0:42:59 | 0:43:07 | |
doubt, of Pakistani heritage in
Telford. There have been two cases | 0:43:07 | 0:43:10 | |
that were prosecuted where gangs of
Pakistani men were sentenced for | 0:43:10 | 0:43:16 | |
long periods of time for abuse of
white, working-class girls, who came | 0:43:16 | 0:43:21 | |
from difficult backgrounds, who were
not sympathetic victims in many | 0:43:21 | 0:43:25 | |
respects. And very difficult, as
your guest said, to prosecute. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:31 | |
Nazir, how do we have an honest
conversation about this, if this is | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
the pattern that has repeated itself
in terms of grooming gangs? Whether | 0:43:34 | 0:43:40 | |
it is Rochdale, Rotherham, Newcastle
and in Telford. How do you deal with | 0:43:40 | 0:43:45 | |
it? We contextualise it. 80% of sex
offenders are British, white men. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:50 | |
But this type of abuse it is
disproportionately British Pakistani | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
men, you can't be shy about saying
these things. Ten years ago Jack | 0:43:54 | 0:43:58 | |
mentioned it and he got a tremendous
amount of abuse for saying so. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:06 | |
amount of abuse for saying so. The
reality is, this is the problem we | 0:44:06 | 0:44:08 | |
have to deal with and the
communities themselves recognise it. | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
There is some phenomenal vocal work
going on to try to identify | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
perpetrators and those who are being
abused. We also have to recognise | 0:44:12 | 0:44:17 | |
that there are Asian victims who are
really reluctant to come forward. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:22 | |
The answer is education, calling out
where you see it. Putting money into | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
all the good work happening at NGO
level. Ultimately, it is providing | 0:44:27 | 0:44:32 | |
support to victims to come forward
to ensure that the perpetrators are | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
brought to justice. Those who are
tasked with doing this, police and | 0:44:35 | 0:44:40 | |
prosecutors, should not be shy about
taking this forward. What are the | 0:44:40 | 0:44:44 | |
causes? Nazir, you answer and then
will I -- I will ask Jack. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:51 | |
Criminality. When I prosecuted one
gang in the north of England, not in | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
Rochdale, the drug trade went down
by 50% whilst they were in custody. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
It is tackling other areas of
criminality that these men are | 0:44:59 | 0:45:02 | |
involved in. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:05 | |
Jack Pakistani men are involved in
the night-time economy, at an | 0:45:05 | 0:45:11 | |
astonishing rate. They're involved
in selling in takeaways or in the | 0:45:11 | 0:45:16 | |
taxi trade. That is part of the
night-time economy. But there is a | 0:45:16 | 0:45:23 | |
bigger issue about the culture of
Pakistani men and Nazir is right to | 0:45:23 | 0:45:28 | |
say when I mentioned this in 2011,
said it was a Pakistani problem, the | 0:45:28 | 0:45:38 | |
balloon went up. But then it
deflated. Some said, didn't you say | 0:45:38 | 0:45:43 | |
Asian. I said listen, pal, the
reason is I'm not talking about | 0:45:43 | 0:45:51 | |
Asians, I'm talking about Pakistani.
You have been knowing what has going | 0:45:51 | 0:45:55 | |
on and you have got to confront it.
It goes back to some of the nature | 0:45:55 | 0:46:00 | |
of Pakistani society in the villages
from which these people come. It is | 0:46:00 | 0:46:04 | |
complicated. Some people attribute
it to Islam. That is not the case. | 0:46:04 | 0:46:09 | |
It is a cultural problem. About the
way in which this particular segment | 0:46:09 | 0:46:16 | |
of Pakistani men happen to regard
white girls. They see them as easy | 0:46:16 | 0:46:23 | |
meat. And they come from difficult
backgrounds, where they're unlikely | 0:46:23 | 0:46:29 | |
to report accept after a lot of
encouragement. Were you dismayed | 0:46:29 | 0:46:37 | |
when the Labour Rotherham MP was
criticised for saying that by the | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
Labour Party. I gave every support
to Sara. She said British Pakistani | 0:46:41 | 0:46:47 | |
men are raping and exploiting white
girls. She was right. Are | 0:46:47 | 0:46:52 | |
politicians not facing up to it, it
is too difficult to have the | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
conversation? It is about social and
cultural attitudes towards white | 0:46:55 | 0:47:01 | |
working class girls. There is no
doubt about that and we cannot bury | 0:47:01 | 0:47:05 | |
our heads in the sand. We have to
accept that. If the local police | 0:47:05 | 0:47:10 | |
chief says, yes, child abuse happens
with white males, of course it does. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:16 | |
Let's not conflate it with grooming,
gang-type behaviour. That is | 0:47:16 | 0:47:23 | |
different. Finally, how do we break
the pattern? We bring offenders to | 0:47:23 | 0:47:31 | |
justice, provide support to victims,
we may to NGOs who are doing work in | 0:47:31 | 0:47:38 | |
identifying victim and perpetrators
and community intelligence needs to | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
improve. When I first talked about
it, we said do we want a nation of | 0:47:41 | 0:47:48 | |
grasses, no, we want a nation of
good neighbours. We need to listen | 0:47:48 | 0:47:53 | |
to people and use the information
and bring these people to justice. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
Thank you. | 0:47:56 | 0:48:01 | |
Thank you. The pm Prime Minister is
visiting Salisbury. She will receive | 0:48:03 | 0:48:10 | |
a briefing from public health
England. She said this recently. I'm | 0:48:10 | 0:48:20 | |
pleased come to Salisbury to speak
to people and announced yesterday | 0:48:20 | 0:48:23 | |
the action that we are taking, we do
hold Russia cup pabl for this brazen | 0:48:23 | 0:48:31 | |
act that has taken place on the
streets of what is such a remarkable | 0:48:31 | 0:48:35 | |
city, where people come and visit
and enjoy and I've come here also to | 0:48:35 | 0:48:42 | |
say thank you to our emergency
services, to our police, our health | 0:48:42 | 0:48:48 | |
services, to everybody at Porton
Down and elsewhere where who have | 0:48:48 | 0:48:55 | |
been working to investigating to get
to the bottom of those responsible | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
and also to ensure that the public
are reassured and it has been great | 0:48:59 | 0:49:04 | |
to meet some tourists here, people
coming to Salisbury, still enjoying | 0:49:04 | 0:49:08 | |
this city. Theresa May there in
Salisbury giving an interview. | 0:49:08 | 0:49:16 | |
So could we be looking at a return
to a Cold War with Russia? | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
Over recent years, relations
between "us" and "them" have been | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
going from bad to worse,
as our reporter Greg Dawson | 0:49:22 | 0:49:24 | |
has been finding out. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
In the late nineties post-Soviet
Russia was in turmoil. President's | 0:49:30 | 0:49:40 | |
Yeltsin's health was deteriorating.
But in 1999 Yeltsin named Vladimir | 0:49:40 | 0:49:47 | |
Putin as Prime Minister and soon he
was acting President and in 2000 he | 0:49:47 | 0:49:51 | |
was elected President of Russia.
Anglo Russians relations grew tense | 0:49:51 | 0:50:00 | |
with the Kremlin pursuing a more
assertive policy. Alexander | 0:50:00 | 0:50:06 | |
Litvinenko who, died last night has
accused the Kremlin of murdering | 0:50:06 | 0:50:09 | |
him. In 2006, former Russian agent,
Alexander Litvinenko, acritic of the | 0:50:09 | 0:50:23 | |
Kremlin died of polonium poisoning.
The British asked the extradition of | 0:50:23 | 0:50:31 | |
a Russian agent and Russia refused.
Amid rumours the murder was ordered | 0:50:31 | 0:50:40 | |
by Vladimir Putin. TRANSLATION:
Britain should understand its action | 0:50:40 | 0:50:46 | |
will not remain without an answer
and will have severe consequences. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:53 | |
In 2014 relations soured following
Russia's intervention in Ukraine and | 0:50:53 | 0:50:58 | |
the downing of a Malaysian plane in
a suspected missile strike by rebels | 0:50:58 | 0:51:04 | |
using Russian weapons. The British
Government and the US and the EU | 0:51:04 | 0:51:10 | |
imposed sanctions on Russia and
suspended military co-operation. | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
Russia responded by cutting off food
imports from the UK. Last year, | 0:51:14 | 0:51:18 | |
Boris Johnson became the first UK
Foreign Secretary to visit Russia in | 0:51:18 | 0:51:23 | |
five years, but faced a chilly
reception after suggesting Russian | 0:51:23 | 0:51:29 | |
involvement in Syria may amount to
war crimes. Theresa May accused | 0:51:29 | 0:51:34 | |
Russia of meddling in elections and
planting fake news. Ichlgts I have a | 0:51:34 | 0:51:43 | |
simple message we know what you're
doing and you will not succeed. The | 0:51:43 | 0:51:49 | |
poisoning came when Moscow described
Anglo Russian relations at an | 0:51:49 | 0:51:55 | |
all-time low. The expulsion of
diplomats the latest stage. | 0:51:55 | 0:52:07 | |
Vladimir Putin faces almost certain
re-election as president | 0:52:07 | 0:52:09 | |
of Russia at the weekend. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:10 | |
But how difficult is it to live
and work in Russia if you're | 0:52:10 | 0:52:14 | |
a critic of Mr Putin? | 0:52:14 | 0:52:15 | |
Opposition activists have
long accused the Kremlin | 0:52:15 | 0:52:16 | |
of using the security services
and state-controlled | 0:52:16 | 0:52:18 | |
TV to attack them. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:20 | |
And when Panorama went
to investigate, they found | 0:52:20 | 0:52:22 | |
the same tactics were used
against their reporter John Sweeney. | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
SPEAKS RUSSIAN. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
It soon becomes clear why we've been
followed and filmed. | 0:52:32 | 0:52:35 | |
One of the main TV
channels in Russia runs | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
a special report about me. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
As well as repeating
the vandalism claim, | 0:52:55 | 0:52:58 | |
it accuses me of making up stories
about students and soldiers | 0:52:58 | 0:53:00 | |
I haven't even met. | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
My police statement and passport
also leaked the media. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
This is how things work
in Putin's Russia. | 0:53:10 | 0:53:17 | |
And Panorama reporter
John Sweeney joins us | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
in the studio and from Dublin,
Professor Ian Robertson, | 0:53:20 | 0:53:22 | |
one of the world's leading
experts on neuropsychology | 0:53:22 | 0:53:24 | |
and an authority on power. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:29 | |
Was Vladimir Putin always as
dangerous as he is now? No, leaders | 0:53:29 | 0:53:36 | |
like this are made largely, albeit
there is a certain personality there | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
and he was a man who grew up in
tough times in St Petersburg. He was | 0:53:41 | 0:53:49 | |
a fight, a physically courageous
man, but an aggressive man and | 0:53:49 | 0:53:54 | |
nationalistic. He held off the
crowds this Dresden when they were | 0:53:54 | 0:54:02 | |
besieging the KGB post he was n't
always like this. Power is a change | 0:54:02 | 0:54:09 | |
agent and if you have unfetterred
power it causes a remarkably | 0:54:09 | 0:54:14 | |
consistent set of behaviours and
changes which Vladimir Putin shows. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:18 | |
Of course it looks as if he is going
to win again. So he will become more | 0:54:18 | 0:54:23 | |
dangerous? I'm afraid so. Because
what happens when you have | 0:54:23 | 0:54:29 | |
unfetterred power for so long, you
develop a grand yosty and a feeling | 0:54:29 | 0:54:37 | |
of identification of your own
interests and those of the state and | 0:54:37 | 0:54:43 | |
so you... Your risk perception is
dulled and your self-awareness is | 0:54:43 | 0:54:50 | |
dulled. John Sweeney you have
operated there, I saw the film last | 0:54:50 | 0:54:54 | |
night, do you feel the effects of
that in terms of the control by the | 0:54:54 | 0:54:59 | |
police, by the Security Services in
a sense that you can't fully operate | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
in Russia the way you would like to?
Absolutely. We were tailed the whole | 0:55:03 | 0:55:11 | |
time, 24/7. It was so cold it was
easy, you would wake up and before | 0:55:11 | 0:55:18 | |
breakfast you would check out the
cars, two men sitting with the | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
engines running. But it was in your
face. And the harassment, the two | 0:55:21 | 0:55:27 | |
doorsteps, how did they know where I
was, being followed all the time, | 0:55:27 | 0:55:33 | |
being lied about. There was a moment
when you get all of this together | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
and you think this is like the
mafia, the horse's head in the bed | 0:55:36 | 0:55:40 | |
stuff. Is it worse? I have been to
Russia since the nineties when | 0:55:40 | 0:55:46 | |
people were being killed big time.
This is the worst trip I have had, | 0:55:46 | 0:55:51 | |
the surveillance in the face, the
two or three items on pro-Kremlin TV | 0:55:51 | 0:56:00 | |
and the feeling that... Vladimir
Putin's risk analysis has been | 0:56:00 | 0:56:05 | |
dulled. That is now in a position.
So the opposition, two men, people | 0:56:05 | 0:56:11 | |
say he was afraid of. Boris
Berezovsky shot dead and another has | 0:56:11 | 0:56:16 | |
been barred from standing two months
in prison or police cells. The | 0:56:16 | 0:56:24 | |
critic you filmed being strong
armed. They're not hiding this. Have | 0:56:24 | 0:56:30 | |
you met Vladimir Putin? Of course he
came in 2003 and I met him on other | 0:56:30 | 0:56:37 | |
occasions. The professor is right
about him in Lord Acton's phrase, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:44 | |
all power corrupts, but absolute
power corrupts absolutely. I spent | 0:56:44 | 0:56:50 | |
13 years in government... Did it
corrupt the Labour Party Are you a | 0:56:50 | 0:56:57 | |
psycho? No. You would say that. I
was going to make a serious point. | 0:56:57 | 0:57:07 | |
You're accountable, more than in the
Russian system. But towards the end | 0:57:07 | 0:57:11 | |
of that 13 years I got used to power
and to being whisked around in a | 0:57:11 | 0:57:17 | |
police vehicle, trappings of power,
and my kids and my wife used to sort | 0:57:17 | 0:57:22 | |
of as it were stick the needle in
and say hang on, because happily in | 0:57:22 | 0:57:27 | |
this country, you have to lose
power, it took a bit of a while to | 0:57:27 | 0:57:30 | |
decompress. If you're assured of
power forever, I think it is right | 0:57:30 | 0:57:39 | |
you feel the changes taking place.
What about that Russia and Vladimir | 0:57:39 | 0:57:45 | |
Putin is acting from a position of
weakness and that is what makes him | 0:57:45 | 0:57:50 | |
more dangerous? I do think that is a
point, with great power, you make so | 0:57:50 | 0:57:58 | |
many enemies by having to exert
control that you also have a lot of | 0:57:58 | 0:58:02 | |
anxieties. The greatest fear that
goes with the power is the fear of | 0:58:02 | 0:58:07 | |
loss of control. Particularly when
you have a small, an economy that is | 0:58:07 | 0:58:12 | |
not thriving, the risk is that he
will take... Be inclined to do | 0:58:12 | 0:58:18 | |
radical things of kind he h done
already. We're going to have to | 0:58:18 | 0:58:23 | |
leave it there. Will you go back,
John? Yes if they will let me in. My | 0:58:23 | 0:58:29 | |
job is to report difficult places.
I'm back in the USSR. That is what | 0:58:29 | 0:58:34 | |
it feels like. Leaders of the
France, Germany and the UK say the | 0:58:34 | 0:58:44 | |
Russians should reveal details of
novichok to the organisation for | 0:58:44 | 0:58:49 | |
chemical weapons. Thank you I'm back
tomorrow. Bye-bye. | 0:58:49 | 0:58:56 |
Jo Coburn is joined by former Labour cabinet minister Jack Straw to discuss the diplomatic row over the Russian spy poisoning, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's response and child sexual exploitation in Telford.