15/10/2011 Dateline London

I it will be back at 1pm. Now, Dateline London live with Gavin

Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Britain's defence secretary

resigns - did Liam Fox have to go? Plus the unfinished business of the

Arab Spring with killings of Coptic Christians in Egypt, massacres in

Syria, and the fighting continuing in Libya. Plus, can the government

make us less fat? My guests today are: Abdel Bari Atwan of Al Quds al

Arabi. Agnes Poirier who is UK editor of Marianne. Yasmin Alibhai

Brown of the Independent and Vincent Magombe of Africa Inform

International. Britain's Defence Secretary Liam Fox resigned over

his friendship with a man who posed as his adviser and who had links

with lobbyists and defence contractors. At a time of conflict

involving British servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq plus

big defence cuts, has this damaged David Cameron's government? I think

you have to start wondering how governments in the past have fallen.

Nobody is saying it might for tomorrow but there was the

deconstruction of the government by one minister going and another.

This is coming very early in their lifetime. If they are not very

careful, remember they are walking on a tight string of this unity

government. But, having said that, for me, what this brings his -- I

have seen not just the area where people are feeling big tried to do

what they can do but how this government is acting on immigration

and have a Home Office minister comes up and says outrageous things

that make people should have. do you mean? When she said we will

stop things like people coming to work and this and that. I know

Britain has to stop people coming in but the tone of the

Conservatives used in this debate really shows me an extreme in their

beliefs. Even if this is personal matters and so on, it shows this I

don't care business, I will do what I can. They do not think about

people's feelings. Has it damage the government or not? I certainly

think letting him hold on for so long, the funny speech he made last

week which did not make any sense at all. It was garbage, really. But,

well I think -- what I think this shows is the weakness of Camerons

position. He dared not take a hard line. Fox is on the right of the

party, Fox is more than the Thatcherite wing and the think they

hate is what Cameron is doing to the party, the coalition and so on.

They have to be kept happy. David Cameron would say it you cannot get

rid of people, it took a few days because of a report by a respected

civil servant and made you will find out what happened. I think he

likes to be known as Action man, this time he wasn't. Partly it is

because he is quite scared of this side of his party. If they turn on

him, which they could at any time, then he is stuffed. He has to keep

them happy. There are so many interesting things, it is the first

time Cameron has had to face such an ordeal. We know John Major in

the past was relieved that at dealing with political scandal. He

Lettin drag on and at about to the inevitable. We remember the

Alastair Campbell 10 days rule, if you are on the front page that 10

days, you are out. And he was on for about eight days. And also in a

coalition it is more difficult to reshuffle. Cameron... He wasn't so

bad. It could have been worse. I will not cry over Dr Fox's

departure. It is a good thing for Europe because he was one of the

really staunch Euro phobics in Cabinet. I am sure he would be

flattered. I believed he jumped before he was pushed. I wish it was

the opposite. I wish Cameron proved his steel and said just go away. To

prove his credibility and I was shocked, we waited more than 10

years for the first sleaze cases of the previous Conservative

government, now after a year the first case and big fish to be

caught resigned. Thirdly, the timing of this actually sees case

which is... He is the defence minister. Britain is involved in

Libya, involved in Afghanistan, involved in Iraq in one way or

another. This is a heavy blow to government. Let's move on. The

scenes of Coptic Christians on the streets of Cairo being viciously

attacked suggest that Egypt's Arab Spring may have a long way to go.

It comes as the fighting in Libya continues and there are reports of

thousands killed in Syria. Should we continue to be hopeful about

moves towards democracy? Syria, we have known for some time it is a

bloodbath that particularly nasty. Very nasty, 3,000 people massacred

and the figure is increasing day after day. The Arab League is

supposed to have emergency meetings to try to do something but I do not

believe they will do anything. The situation in Syria is very alarming.

We have protesters for the last seven months he could not oppose

the government and we have a government which is brutal and they

cannot stop the protests. It is a vicious circle. How long will it

take, I don't know. It could be more nasty if there is from forces

or neighbours deciding to on the rebels. If they do on them and

there is a process of arming those rebels... Is there? Yes. If it

happens, it could be a bloody civil war and again the American drive to

launch a war against Iran as we heard, that story around were about

to the Sussex ambassador and blow up the embassies, so I believe we

are heading towards a very unstable area. It could be another war to

kill the Arabs bring completely. Isn't the Arabs bring, if it is

killed, it will be killed by the repression of Coptic Christians who

want to demonstrate, it will be killed by the fact the war is

continuing in Libya, it is not the outside is doing this, this is

Arabs doing it themselves. Also there are outsiders who do not want

the Arabs bring to succeed. They want to derail it. There is a

counter revolution, they're working for speed especially in Egypt

because the Egyptian spring changed the equation in the Middle East.

They do not want a revolution to succeed in Egypt. It was alarming

to see Coptic Christians killed, 26 massacred by the army. It is an

affront to the revolution and people. Everybody is saddened. I

know Coptic people are suppressed a deprived of rights, they cannot go

into the army or security forces or be represented in the government.

They are entitled to protest and the government should listen to

them, they have rights. question is important but the

difficulty is in all of these volatile places, and further away

from the Arab lands, the internal destruction the goes on by the

dictators, the army, the fundamentalists, they are

hyperactive. It is a very cleverly balanced and aided by these outside

forces. Going back to Fox, it is not his alleged sex life or which

hotel he stayed in or who he met, the three organisations that are

now mentioned in connection with his very good friend, the Atlantic

bridge which was only dismantled in September which is a neo-cons

organisation with an international agenda, two other organisations, a

Zionist, prose finest communications lobby group, and

this other company behind it seems arms trading to keep the Middle

East where it was. Both are working together. There are two things

happening, as estate in Egypt definitely the Egyptian revolution

is in danger, from the very beginning when the Americans

manoeuvred to make sure the military were the ones handed

power,. They say there is no alternative because there was no

more power sources. My belief is leave the people to do what they

need to do. That said, I do not want to here... You remain an

optimist. What I'm saying is in spite of what ever has happened,

the biggest thing that has come out of the Arab spring, there has been

a weakening of the masses, the popular instinct to take part in

their own struggles. Enough to wakening, I agree you should not

stop it, in the wake me certain groups emerge and they are emerging,

the anti-Christian behaviours in all of the Arab countries now is

appalling. In Iran, too. Christians. In Pakistan as well. In the mob

there lies danger. In Syria, it is quite clear that we will not

intervene. All we can do is convince once again the Chinese and

the Russians not to veto the UN resolution of that will say and put

forward sanctions towards Syria. What activists... Let's not be

cynical. Is doing a Libya being a successful thing? Why are we

thinking when he tried to overthrow a person like... Gaddafi I do not

agree with foreign intervention and bombing. I would have liked Libyans

to do it themselves. White and expects that once you try to take

over a person like Gaddafi or ad and in, you would have it so smooth.

The most important thing is the types of leaders like Gaddafi and

African dictators, from now on will have to be on notice people will

rise up against you if you continue. It is that the Communist in the

On Syria, we are in the situation when the activists must... There

are two things, firstly for the army to swap sides. They are not

going to get help from the outside, so they must do it from the inside.

The army must join at the people. That is a civil war. You have not

mentioned the people that resisted sanctions, South Africans. South

Africa did not go with the sanctions. If that is not

depressing news, what is? When it comes to Syria, the army is

completely different. In Egypt, Tunisia, even Yemen, the army is in

some way independent from the Government and they play a very

decisive role. The army in Tunisia said to Ben Ali, you have to go. He

went. When they intervened in Egypt and told Hosni Mubarak it was the

end of the game, he left. But when it comes to Syria, Bashar al-Assad

is in full control of the army. The army is part of the regime, an

integral part. It was a military coup which took over in Syria. We

cannot say it that the army in Syria will actually defect. They

are starting to defect. Oh it is very limited. 300,000 is a fraction.

The problem in Syria is that the internal situation is complicated

and there could be a sectarian civil war. If we ignite as

sectarian civil war, and there will be, because you cannot continue

killing and shooting your own people, as we see every day,

sometimes 50 people. The dilemma is that some of the Syrian protesters

would like foreign intervention. The outside powers say they will

not intervene. That takes us back to the start of the conversation.

What can Arab people and countries do? The Arab League is meeting

tomorrow and you do not expect much from it. I know that within the

Arab League people are desperately worried about Iran. Whatever you

make of the bomb plots and the United States, they are worried

about Iranian intervention in Syria. Yes, and the Iranians have said it

clearly. If there is going to be any foreign intervention in Syria,

we will intervene. They will not let that regime collapsed. That is

the paradox here. The Arab League has been the most useless bunch

of... Ever! I think the problems of the Arab League must not take us

away from the empowerment of the people, the courage of the people

in the Arab world. And in Africa. This is not going to be stopped. It

is a fire starting to burn. There will be a lot of chaos and so on,

but give it a decade, perhaps, and any Arab, even Saudi Arabia, they

will fear. They will have to do reform or face the people. I know

we are talking about the Arab world, but you have mentioned Uganda and

the demonstrations happening there and people have looked North and

see what has happened in Arab countries and been inspired. Other

people not frightened? They are very frightened. They thought the

Government wanted to poison them. But the people of very determined.

Last time they demonstrated, there was tear gas. Some of them died.

Women were shot in the stomach and so on. They are not fearing that. I

think again they are being inspired. The Arab world did it against

mighty armies. If the leader killed hundreds of thousands of people,

then the world will turn against him. Why do you think that the

Syrian people continued to demonstrate, knowing what has

happened to the people beside them in demonstrations? It is

extraordinarily brave. They are brave and courageous. There have

been humiliated for the last 42 years, 50 years. They were treated

very badly. The regime was so suppressive. Any kind of freedom,

freedom of exhibition, work, travel, so that is the problem. There is

nothing to fear because they have lost everything. They have lost

their fear of fear, and when people lose their fear of fear of... I was

in Egypt doing research in Cairo at the end of Ramadan. Walking among

young people, the army was there, really quite menacing in the middle

of the square and so on. There was such bravery. They said that if

they turned on them, they were not afraid. They were only 20 or

something. The quite extraordinary. We are talking about Iran, but one

name is missing here, Turkey. Turkey should step forward. I am

not so keen on them that, by all accounts, but they have some

admission in the region. Turkey has been given this soft and wonderful

image because it is part of Europe. It is not part of Europe. The cuts

that are being made a not acceptable. He is pushing for

sanctions. Why should Turkey fight war on behalf of Europe which has

closed its doors? We are not talking about the war. Turkey was

used as a member of NATO but it has never been rewarded for its good

service to the West during the Cold War. When not at the door of the

European Union, they said no thank you, you are Muslim, we do not want

you. Thank God they did, because their economy is now stronger than

the European economy. Now we will move on to something that we are

supposed to do something about instead of Government. The British

Government is worried about obesity but has decided to leave it to

individuals to tackle their weight problems, while hoping food

companies will behave responsibly. Will that work? They do not care

about obesity because rich people are generally thin and they only

care about the rich. They are only interested in feeding profits to

the food industry. It is laughable. This non- policy is laughable.

would accept that what you put into your own mouth is a matter for

yourself. That is why the nation needs to take it seriously and have

a proper policy. This is a non- policy. They are too paranoid about

this. British, American, German women, trying to slim down. In

Africa it is wonderful to see these nicely shaped women. Government

should keep very far away from some of these things, that is what I

think. No. One of the problems facing teenage girls growing up

with the idea that getting a bit of flab is so bad. It destroys your

health and all of that. People should enjoy it. Vincent, there are

children in classrooms that cannot run for two minutes. There is an

obesity problem. You cannot leave that. There was a book a few years

ago which looked at why Frenchwomen do not get fat. You do not it.

is a question of culture. Education is key. But if you are five and you

do not know what to carriage looks like, that is a problem. I would

take an authoritarian stance and I would ban all McDonald's. As you

know, it is popular for a reason. People like it. If you eat it in

moderation, it is not bad for you. Just like for Agram. -- just like

French pate. Come and look at the food on sale, pre-packaged and very

cheap. For people on low incomes, the choice between making their own

food and buying for �1, four frozen pizzas, you can see why they do it.

I have written a lot of books about cookery! There are two solutions.

You can make it compulsory, if you do not lose weight, you will be in

prison. Saddam Hussein literally did that. The prisons would be very

full! So people lost weight because they were scared. The second

solution is cultural. The Mediterranean diet is the best.

Fruit, vegetables, red wine. that is their culture. They are all

expensive. Things like olive oil. They should not be. Europe has to

make decisions. Instead of importing food from Africa and the

Mediterranean, it is expensive, but stop eating all this rubbish.

nation, we tax alcohol and cigarettes for various reasons. We

do not ban it but we say you have to do it responsibly. Why not food?

Culture should be encouraged to provide more fresh food.

peasant diet. Look at the full English breakfast. It is butter,

bread, butter, beans, butter, sausage, butter. If these things

were properly taxed, they would reflect not how much we should not

eat it, but it might make parents think whether they should feed it

to their children. Not having it is just capitulating to the food

industry. How much are people taxed already? Already there is too much

taxation. Our National Health Service and the doctors are now

warning that we have an epidemic connected to the obesity issue. We

cannot let that happen. It is not just the rich people that eat at

McDonald's. If you tax McDonald's, you are taxing the poor people.

have to leave it there. Unfortunately we do not have time