22/10/2011 Dateline London

capital. Welcome to Dateline London. The

death of a dictator. What it means there are other despots. Could a

former leader of the IRA make a good President and can the eurozone

leaders get it right this time? At my guests are Bernard Purcell,

Abdul Bari Atwan, Jeff McAllister and Mark Roche. Good to see you.

The death of Muammar Gaddafi brings to an end 42 years of repression,

the sponsorship of terror sick and bizarre narcissism. But what hopes

are there for the future? And what lessons fathered dictators and

Western powers who hope to influence events in the Arab

Spring? Abdul Bari Atwan, you met him. Would you -- why do you think

you would rather have had him stand trial? We are looking at a

different Libya. We should not see Gaddafi the way he used to treat

his opponents. His death was bloody. It was very ugly. People were

shocked in the Middle East. They did not expect a man like him to be

humiliated the way he was. Executed the way he was. We saw him walking.

He was breaking his captors not to kill him, to treat him nicely. But

in the end we saw him killed. Personally, I saw videos. People

are actually hitting and kicking him. It is immoral to do so. We

want to set up to me practising -- who want to set up a democracy. The

law is supposed to prevail. Would a trial have helped bring Libya to

get there? The trial will cool things down. Libya is a tribal

society. His tribe and other tribes loyal to him will feel offended.

This could be a recipe for a civil war later. He cannot see the leader

humiliated the way he was. A trial would give time to rebuild the

country, peace, stability. His sons also, to be humiliated and killed,

executed in cold blood, this is not a good start for the new Libya.

Bearing that in mind, how optimistic should be the about the

future? Libyans do want a new beginning. Donaghy served his

usefulness to the West to a large extent. -- Colonel Gaddafi. He was

a use for Boogie man for President Reagan and lots of people got rich

through various behind the scenes issues. Fire -- a lot of people

will find his death convenient. There are a lot of paper trails.

One leader said he would like Al -- he would like a lot of questions

answered. He was responsible for supplying weapons to the IRA in the

1980s. That was pretty much as old as part of the reconciliation

process in the 1990s running up to the peace process. But it is

brittle and nasty but it is immensely convenient for the

powers-that-be. In leaves a vacuum. We cannot say convenient. This is

execution. This is outside the rule of law. I am not suggesting it

should be done. It was a deliberate execution. That is what we should

admit. He brutalise people. It is against values. He was a prisoner.

He should be treated as a prisoner. You could make an argument with

Saddam Hussein, there was a trial. Was that good for reconciliation in

Iraq? Maybe they are such boogeyman that getting rid of them in a

hurry... Osama Bin Laden we might also say, better to have him dead

in a political sense than to have him around to it make trouble and

become a living martyr. I would also have liked to have seen a

judicial process and it is a way of signifying social progress in the

path to democracy. You are suggesting it is now convenient for

us there are a lot of questions about Lockerbie. Could he answered

them? The paper trail is real. is seen as a big win for her

President Sarkozy. And also for David Cameron. It was ideal and the

time of doom and gloom in the eurozone. In defence, Europe is

working very well with the help of the United States. It was very

democracy, we are ready to go to war. The problem is, will we do it

for Syria? The answer is Guo Zhongfang. -- no. Will regret for

Bahrain? No. Well we intervened with Israel and Palestinian to

force the peace process? The answer is No that. Libya is the easy part.

But at least a dictator... The Romanian dictator was killed the

same way. You're off to Tunisia tomorrow. That is where the Arab

Spring started. There are elections. How hopeful should we be? We have

seen what has happened in Egypt recently with the Army cracking

down on Coptic Christians. We have seen some extremism there. Where is

Tunisia? There are teething problems. It will happen. People in

the Middle East never enjoyed democracy. We do not have it. In

Tunisia, the signs are very prosperous. There are five or six

major parties there. The Renaissance Party, and his Le Mans

party, is the biggest one and there are expectations it could win up to

30%. -- and Islamist party. People are determined to have a proper

government in their part of the world. His Turkey a model to look

to? Yes. The Tunisian election will be the first fruit of the Arab

Spring. This is a turning point. The Islamic party in Tunisia are

actually taking the justice and Development Party in Turkey as a

model. For the first time they said they would not endorse more than

one wife. They would not prevent or prohibit beaches for women and men.

It means he is actually adopting the ideology of the Turkish party.

It's we cannot make the same mistake as Algeria or when there

was a coup d'etat. The Army did not like the Islam's. This time it is a

moderate Islamist party. The leader has lived in Britain very long time.

If they win, I'm sure we can do business with them like we do with

Turkey. I am sure they will be moderate. Are there lessons for

Europe for the outside powers, for the US, in how to and how not to

influence events in Arab countries? Has Libya been a good model? People

would say and massacres that could have happened in Benghazi have been

prevented and Libyans have sorted out the situation. There is a moral

dilemma. People will say you cannot stand aside when slaughter is

happening. But are you going top five that model which every other

dictatorship QC? Saudi Arabia is hardly a model society. We can look

around the world. The reality is that Gaddafi was something of a

useful full whose utility had expired. The West was prepared to

intervene with a certain figure they would not have shown. We will

miss him in the media. He was a clown. He was giving us a lot of

headlines during his life. It was true he was a brutal dictator. But

there were a lot of, some colour in him. And lots of oil. That is still

there. That was not an incentive. Is the same model? It is good for

people to pick fights they can win if you are going to pick a fight

rather than fight like Iraq or Afghanistan where you cannot win

and you still wastes billions of dollars and lots of lives and put

society into convulsion. You cannot fix every problem the way that

Libya got fixed. The NATO system and air strikes and having a beat

Desert Country and then having people willing to fight. That model

does not apply to everywhere else. But it worked this time. The West

does not have any more money. more money, bombs, aircraft

carriers... Let's move on. The presidency of Ireland it's not

where the power really lies. But it is a important role. In some senses

the embodiment of a sovereign, independent nation. What kind of

President does Ireland need and would Martin McGuinness fit the job

description? He is already holding an executive position in Northern

Ireland and people in Northern Ireland bristle a bit when they see

some of the activity in the South saying he is not fit to be the

President. But they say he is fit for ours. It's there is a concern

that Sinn Fein, who did have an opportunity to choose other

candidates because they are a growing force in the south, that by

putting Martin McGuinness for what they're looking for some kind of

legitimisation of the IRA in Irish history, when there has always been

great revulsion... This would be a kind of why this late claim. DS, we

do, embrace the IRA. It's the polls have shown one of two front runners.

There is a Transfers system. By virtue of action being well-known

and if people are sufficiently alienated from D parties he could

give a far better showing than people anticipate. In the last

couple of days he has not helped himself by saying he would not be a

ceremonial figure. He would criticise government policy. He

cannot do that as the head of state. The one particular function the

President has is to refer to the Supreme Court any legislation it

considers it repugnant to the constitution. He got into

difficulty because he was challenged by the families of the

soldier killed by the IRA during the Troubles. Do you think it is

good that he is standing and it is a marker of the changes in Sinn

Fein? Yes. He should not be haunted by his past. Mess that Arafat was

considered as a terraced but elected as President of Palestine.

Robert Mugabe was also. There were other terrorists who became prime

ministers. Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist. I cannot see

any problems with him being elected. Last August I met Gerry Adams. I

noticed how Sinn Fein has transformed. He was very moderate

and very experienced. He was talking a lot of sense. I never

felt that. I'm talking to a terrace. I was talking to a statesman.

interesting that Becker seemed to have given up the armed struggle.

In other words it may be those kinds of terrorist movements have

had their day in western Europe. think they have. People are so

worried about the economy. Also in Ireland like in Spain they have

pushed regionalisation very far. They are meeting most of the demand.

Except independence. Sinn Fein has been untainted by the collapse of

Ireland. With a new President comes the beginning of a reverse of

Ireland, economically. Ireland, unlike Greece, has a very good

workforce and Industry. It seems to have accepted austerity. One thing

that was not done in other countries, it has a good tax system

The only one who has an international profile at the

candidates, I think he would be seen in the US as a part to wish

Mark on the Good Friday process. This is about the validation of the

gamble made by all parties to bring Ireland to a different future. He

is a marquee name and he has done it in the north. He could probably

help in the South get investors in. Is that more of a drawback than his

past? It is not more of a throwback than his past. It is created by the

actions of Sinn Fein and the IRA. Let's move on. Another crunch

European summit. Another chance to fix the problems of the eurozone.

Ken the leaders of Europe bring the months of instability and

uncertainty to an end and stabilise the markets? Which problem? I'm

sorry. At the moment, it is a slow process. Greece will get this money.

The European Central Bank will help government. Germany will accept

that. That is the interest of the outside world. The eurozone is

fundamentally healthy because states which have not done to the

austerity measures, once the austerity measures are enforced

everywhere, putting grosser side, it is a small country. -- putting

Greece aside. Once the austerity measures are in place, the fiscal

measure, the eurozone will come back. It is important that the

Solidarity Between the member of the eurozone and France and Germany

has shown that we can get out of this crisis together. Before the

next summit, the ratings agency is havoc. That his trip. Not everybody

is a fan of ratings agencies. Because the stakes are so important,

there will be a model to a solution. Looking at the numbers, they are

scary. If you look at all the assets of European banks, 20

trillion euros, a fund of 200 billion euros, that is one or two %

of the losses. Italy, their productivity growth in the last ten

years. Germany, 10% in the last ten years. Greece can't do value, Italy

consider value. And they are poor things to the euro. -- thanks to

the euro. If you're sitting in Germany, it is probably quite a

good thing in many ways to have the euro relatively weak because of the

weakest members. It is openly admitted and has been extremely

good for Germany. If you look at the behaviour of Europe's leaders,

they have spoken a great fight but have not acted. It has been slow

and bureaucratic. Germany does not want to bounce into things. They

need to be parted scission. Challenges for Eurosceptics. They

have to see what they are signing up for. They do not want to be

rushed into this. There is a suspicion that Sarkozy would quite

like to use this direction to protect French banks from exposure.

Amid all this solidarity, national interest? They have shown

pragmatism. They will be another summit next Wednesday. Maybe even

another meeting out of that. The markets did not panic. They have

gone up quite considerably. There is suggestion they are doing their

homework. Germany is working to rectify the whole thing. The market

is asking for patients. The international community are not

patient. The Prime Minister of China said to Europe, put your

house in order because we can't drag on. The currency is giving

lessons to Europe. The problem is for Angela Merkel to solve the deal

to the German people and ride a fat cheque to save Greece, this is a

huge problem. How to pass this deal through Parliament. How the private

builders are going to smash their debt by 50% as many people ask them

to do. I believe the summit has a huge responsibility it. They have

to take drastic measures and bail out crease otherwise... Greece will

be bailed out. It is no longer a problem. Who is there to pay?

Europe and central bank. They have money. The government has money.

Not the whole eurozone is in a mess. Holland, Scandinavia, Austria,

Germany they are doing very well. They can help because they have

taken advantage of the eurozone. They have narrowed it down from

eight options to either an insurance or the French proposal of

the bank. They have worked through something like six other technical

proposals. The Greek debt will be much greater.

We have seen demonstrations on the streets of Greece, there has been a

huge contraction for Ireland. How ever i o -- irritated the Irish are,

they're putting up with it are they? They don't really have a

choice. It is the ultimate triumph of broken capitalism that they are

socialising their debt and passing it on to the soldiers. People don't

no matter where they are really know what the solutions are. Just

keep the system working. People have pushed this through. Ireland

is a very different case because there is quite an export economy.

The amount you are talking about, a percentage of gross domestic

product. I was struck by the ability of China to affect the rest

of the world. Their economy is not entirely perfect. I guess if I had

the problem of only 9% growth, I would feel very sad. But the

Chinese realise they are part of the deal. It is the systemic risk

everybody is worried about. If we have more trouble than failures we

could have a repeat of 2008. The Chinese don't start selling their

American bonds, they don't want to upset the applecart. They are

making money off the way the system is going. I wanted to bring in mark

on the possibility of favourite in the House of Commons on Monday or

whether we should have a referendum. I hope Britain has a referendum. I

hope the British vote to quit Europe because I think good to be

the best thing they could do for us. We had to put up with a country

that ended, change the rules, wants its money back, I think it is time

the British go their way. It could be the menace. They want to be

sovereign. They have a delusion a empire. If we had been in the euro,

he wouldn't have the crisis you have today. We would have insisted

on adherence to the roles. Unlike France and Germany. They would be a