24/12/2011 Dateline London

Now it is time for our foreign correspondents to give up their

views on the latest news in Hello, welcome to Dateline London's

year in review. From the Arab spring to the possible meltdown of

the euro with sitting governments across the world feeling the anger

of those suffering from bad economies. Plus British tabloid

It is good to see you all. The Arab spring. It has rewritten the

politics of the Middle East, seen three dictators and inspired other

protesters from Russia to Uganda. How significant has it been for the

region and the world? Barry, you talk on this programme for some

years about corruption and awful dictators and -- in parts of the

Arab world why did it happen in 2011 and begin in Tunisia?

frustration was huge. 60 million unemployed... The gap between the

rulers and the ruled was huge. The average age of the rulers was over

70. You can see that it could not work. Mubarak was in power for 40

years. Others were in power for many years. This kind of thing

cannot continue forever. The question is, we were expecting it.

We are expecting something to happen but we never expected the

revolution to start in Tunisia. Tunisia was much better than other

countries. I expected to start in Egypt. 40 million people under the

poverty line. Mubarak so corrupt, and also denied his wife used to

have 1,000 pairs of shoes -- his wife used to have 1,000 pairs of

shoes. We expected the revolution to start in Egypt with 40 million

people below the poverty line. Unemployment, corruption, why this

year, honestly nobody can tell. was going to happen sooner or

later? Mark, has 2011 changed how many people around the world see

Arab countries? Post-colonial Arab people have not done what the young

men and women have done this year. It seems to have changed how they

are seen. The West has not a monopoly on the quest for democracy.

There Arab world also has it. In the 90s in Algeria or... Things

have changed. Europe is back in the picture of the Middle East. The

Libyan campaign has been made by France and Britain and in Tunisia,

France and for the first time we see America in the background in

the Middle East. Almost consciously in a way. The Americans have left

it to the British and the French largely. Militarily they were there.

It shows that the foreign policy of the EU does exist and that that

foreign policy which has been disregarded by many has been played

very well in the Arab world. The Arab world is looking to Europe as

an example of what they want, not the euro crisis, the Institution of

Europe. Geoff, do you think there disconnection between the Obama

administration and what is going on? Obama made that made -- great

speech in Cairo a few years ago suggesting he was a different

President from George Bush but he is so preoccupied by matters back

home that he has left the Arab spring to the Arab people. If he

had not, what would he have done? That is the question. You can look

at this as a successful American policy in a way. By not getting

involved? Exactly. This is a success for a kind of globalised

model that was... Clinton talked about it a while back, the desire

to do something different in the country that permeates different

kinds of technologies and different economies that makes people rise up

themselves to solve their own problems. American troops had just

left Iraq. Nobody even talked about that. This is a story that has died.

Is this as excess? This was the old fashioned way of trying... The

large armies, spending trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands

of lives, it was not successful. Obama said he was going to lead

from behind. It was a lot of American intelligence that helped

the British and the French to do the work in Libya. I would say that

is fantastic, what a success. If we have President's keeping doing

things that way we will be a lot better off. I think Obama has done

brilliantly. It is a real model for how America should not want to be

seen any longer as the great world policeman, the one who steps in and

puts everything right. Europe and America have a lot of apologising

to do to the Arab people. If you think to the extent that we are all

responsible for keeping empower monstrous dictators because it

suited us. In Bahrain, we are still doing it, and Saudi Arabia. We have

dirty hands in this business. For once we had done cleanly and well.

If the Arab people forgive us if we are very lucky. Did you find this

an expiring year? If you listen to young Arab men and women making an

articulate case for the kind of future they want... I thought that

was striking. It reminds you that everybody, everywhere, once

democracy if they want -- if they get the chance. North Korea may be

the next place. Clinton used to say that. If you look at the map of the

last 50 years it has been across the world, gradual democratisation

of large chunks of the world that were not a democratic before. Maybe

not perfect democracies but better than before. We have to believe in

hope... We have to hope that human aspiration will inevitably roll out

everywhere. What about Syria? agree with Polly. The Arab words...

Suffer from humiliation. One from a brutal rulers and the second from

the West. They admitted it defeated despite Obama saying we left

holding -- holding our head high. There is unfinished business, isn't

there? However brave the people are in Syria they could be more

bloodshed to come. For the last nine months they have been

revolting, protesting and nobody is helping them. People give up or are

about to give up because there is no intervention from the

international community. Things are more complicated than that. How

could you do it? If you were President Barack Obama and you

wanted to take out of the regime, how could you do it? It is

complement -- complicated and militarily impossible. You would

see more of a civil war that we see now. In Iraq it never happened. It

was a huge defeat after nine years. There is some sort of recognition

that the Taliban is a new power, deposed ten years ago and we are

ready to reinstate them again. Syria is complicated, a lot of

sectarian divisions. If civil war erupted we could be stuck there for

years. Civil war in Lebanon lasted for 18 years. If it came to Syria

it would be a huge setback. Without the French and the British and the

Hall of the America of... It was not better before. It is not

sectarian,... One thing I am surprised we do not discuss is the

Israeli and Palestinian problem. It has been put under the rug and this

is the future of 2011 Why we focused on the Arab spring. The

other conflict has been completely inured. It will come. If you see

for example who is taking over in Egypt and who will take over in

Syria. This will be reflected badly on the Arab-Israeli conflict. From

the eyes of the Western perspective. The peace process failed and now

because it has failed no pressure on Israel and the Muslim

Brotherhood will say, we will give you the chance and now it is our

turn. The economic news for 2011 has been

high unemployment, lack of leadership and in Europe the

possibility of the meltdown of the euro itself. How have the world's

democracies cope? Not very well, some people think. The euro is

still there, it is still strong. Germany and France are working

together to get it right. There is a new fiscal treaty. I think the

year which has gone has shown how important the Franco-German axis

has been to save Europe against the most incredible speculation from a

market. That may be true but the one thing that has been missing is

not the question of leadership but by the question of candour.

Throughout the year we have been told they are just about us all

that, they have got a plan, numerous summits and nothing has

actually worked. The markets do not believe it. It has been obvious

that Greece is in default. It is constantly denied. I know that the

notion of solidarity... Transparency and truth! We have

Greek... Germany tried to help Greece because they are part of the

eurozone. It depends what you call help. I am astonished to hear this

from you. I look at what Europe is doing and this is a Europe of

extreme conservatism, Sarkozy and Merkel imposing austerity on

countries that cannot bear it. A return to the economics of the

1930s. Watching Europe go the wrong way... Do you want the Germans to

give all this money and the Greeks to continue with their ways? If

there needs to be austerity. There needs to be a collective programme

for growth, not austerity. They need to increase taxes, privatise

and reform their administration. That is the pressure on the euro.

Most people believe that... They are bust. It is a little country

compared to the overall project. You're trying to impose on them and

us -- and austerity they cannot possibly... No country with the

best will in the world could survive it. Spain, Italy, they have

done it. Talking about one country out of 27 countries, that is Greece.

The eurozone... We in the Middle East suffer from these austerity

measures imposed by the IMF and other funds and it has a huge

social repercussions. People hate it in the Middle East that the

IMF... When you mention the IMF, people we know that food subsidies

will be removed, other subsidies will be removed and people will

suffer. On the Greek side, I will be astonished, I would be scared of

these measures being imposed. I believe Greece is humiliated by the

two superpowers in Europe, France and Germany are saying, you should

do this, you should do that. I think we should be a bit kinder to

Greece. So then conned -- so they can continue with their bad ways?

So they can continue to spend? The reason the austerity measure... We

You are right that we need to reorganise the economy, but we need

to go for growth. The EU see no programme for growth anywhere. Not

exports, nothing you can imagine -- you see. The American economy is

still in a mess. I agree. Part of it is a divided government. I think

the circumstances in the US are different to Europe. I agree with

you that politics are in a state of gridlocked - a worse state of

gridlock and I can ever remember happening. The system has been

billed for distributed power to prevent autocracy. That is what the

Founding Fathers were worried about in the 18th century. Somehow in the

years after the Cold War there was enough of a sense of common threat

that people were able to come together and do things.... There

really is no, no agreement about what people should do in the US any

more. That is one of the factors that makes the US less powerful in

the world, which has a cyclical affect. A less powerful people

think you are, no less powerful you really are. I would say, in the

same way... People will start paying attention to the fact that

our educational standards are decreasing and that the things we

are creating for our children are not enough any more. When I look at

Europe I think - what a pathetic enterprise. I can't see how we

stability pact that has people spending less and agreeing there

will be penalties on governments to do not deficits bend will solve the

problem. -- deficit spend. The political will is to help Europe

come out of this mess. The good news is that, of course it now we

are 26. Britain is a semi-detached member. Somebody like you who is on

the left - you have bought into this 1930s economic idea. Why are

you not saying "listen, this is no way to generate growth"? We need

growth. You need to read the fundamentals right. Economies need

good taxation and good austerity. You need to tax the rich more.

think the point - everybody in 2011 has been modelling a long, but

nothing is coming through. -- muddling. We have had 26 strong,

and the odd man and not, which is always making life difficult in

Europe.... We have the help of the two big countries, France and

Germany. So we are back to that pre-Second World War time. No, we

are back... On that note, we will move on. This has been an

extraordinary year for newspapers. The practices of some newspapers

have been laid bare in their awfulness. Dig 2011 mark the

beginning of the end for these practices? it has been a terrible

year for the industry. Indeed, newspapers are in decline

everywhere. They probably will not last much longer in their present

form. Journalism will continue online. This great revelation about

phone hacking was not really a surprise. You only had to pick up a

copy of them to know that they were fill the papers. Britain probably

has the filthiest papers in the Western democratic world because of

the dominance of 3-4 rogue, eccentric owners of newspapers who

have dominated the British press back to the 1930s. We have an

extremely right-wing, unpleasant, Euro-sceptic press. It has

dominated our politics in ways that have forced it to become a footnote.

The Murdoch press, which still owns 40% of our main newspapers - they

are mostly living in tax havens, they are weird people who manage

our national conversation. They have been dealt a blow with the

exposure of their methods, but do I think that next time this year we

will still have a nasty press? I think so. I think you might like an

is to the Arab dictators. (LAUGHTER).

What happened in the Arab spring is here. I remember the chief of the

Washington Post poll this wonderful story about coming across several

national newspapers reporting on a country that was selling

scaffolding in Africa because it was made of British rock. It turned

out some by had talked it up at the Palm and papers had written about

it but nobody had ever made a phone call -- hotel bar.... I think the

press will have to be restrained, and everybody needs to understand

that. There needs to be a cultural shift, do we need an ombudsman? I

think the best thing would be that the requirement that any corruption

be bought in the paper and naming the names of the guilty.

correction? In some newspapers, such a thing does not exist. There

are one or two where they have started put corrections in.

Guardian began doing that. Now some of the more respectable papers are

doing it. Our corrections are right there on a map centre leading page.

-- our. Do I think that the British press will improve? Not under the

present ownership. Since I came to this country I witnessed three

scandals.... The pension thing (INAUDIBLE). He ended up in prison.

Another scandal at News of the World, phone hacking. Are the

British media are used to be our model. People like me would look to

Britain. I am not sure if it's the same case can apply now. We have

had some fantastic investigations... Exactly. Not just for these kind of

things but also for the Middle East - most Middle-Eastern people...

Britain, for all its faults, the press is very vigorous. Someone

like Jacques Chirac would have been exposed by British newspapers years

ago. I always feel uncomfortable because I have always defended the

tabloid press. In France we cover up scandals. Thanks to the Guardian

we discovered that the whole system was covered by Murdoch, the police,

the politicians, the courts. Everything. I think today the

British press has, with the exception of the Guardian, the

British press needs to reform itself. Will it? The money is not

there for online journalism as far as we know. There is no way to

monotypes it - that horrible phrase. The Guardian is surviving, the New

York Times is surviving - there is still a place for good journalism.

The world is so complicated, we need more than ever some good

explanations and good press. That is true. There is no lack of

appetite for good, accurate stories. We have a huge global reach for the

guardian Online. But we do not make money out of it because there is no

advertising. Not enough to pay for the depth and quality of journalism

which really costs money - journalism is not free. If people

think they can go to any old website aimed at the news - they

need the news from somewhere they trust. That's all for Dateline