02/06/2012 Dateline London

Epsom wake source -- racecourse in an open-topped car.

There will be a full news bulletin at one o'clock. Now it's time for

Hello and a warm welcome to Dateline London. The Queen

celebrates her Diamond Jubilee, 60 years on the throne. How

significant a force does the monarchy remain in Britain? Syria

and civil war. And, as billions of Euros pour out of Spain, is this

the last chance to save the euro? My guests today are Thomas

Kielinger of Die Welt, Michael Goldfarb of Globalpost.com, Mina Al

Oraibi of Asharq al Awsat and Polly Toynbee of the Guardian.

In very tough economic times Britain is to have a long holiday

weekend to celebrate Queen Elizabeth's 60 years on the throne.

How should we view the monarchy now, and those past 60 years since the

end of Empire? How well does the monarchy manage its image? And is

Republicanism a spent force in Britain?

How significant a force do you think the monarchy is today?

like to say this is just a bit of harmless fun. She does not really

have any important powers, but I think the importance of the

monarchy for Britain is that it has a huge subconscious grip on the

political imagination. It makes us much less democratic, it makes us

tolerate a certain degree of subservience that other republics,

on the whole, don't tolerate. I think it permeates our view of our

world -- role in the world which is insane. Punching above our weight,

having a seat on the Security Council we really don't deserve and,

of course, now in the process of spending colossal numbers of --

amounts of money of buying trident and having to be a nuclear power.

All of this is part of our imperial fantasy. Every time we have one of

these great parades, we pump up the idea of Britain's greatness. I

think we look pretty preposterous on the world stage. Even though we

do there parades well, what is underneath it is pretty toxic.

us move over to a representative of of a great republic. You have

written a book about the Queen. the Queen is the Queen. Quite

rightly so because she is the only international monarch. There are

lots of monarchs in Europe as we know but none has this

international reach. She is head of state in 15 other countries and

head of the Commonwealth which is 54 countries. I consider her

achievement of keeping the Commonwealth together one of her

business -- biggest. How do we view it in a Republican country? We have

lost two residence in as many years. -- President's. I think what Polly

Toynbee calls subservience is public faithfulness to a tradition.

Having a head of state who stands above the air and flow of party

politics. That is such an asset, you can't imagine how many crisis

you spare yourself by having one person above it all who served

continuously. Your President does cost �10 less than an hour and the

Irish President costs �100 less than ours. The Queen bring so much

value for money. She doesn't bring in the money! People go and visit

Versailles but there is no King inside. That is half the number of

people come to Britain. I remember when Princess Diana died and it

took the BBC hours to vox pop any one English because all of the

people at Buckingham Palace were American tourist. I think Polly is

right about social cohesion. My birthright is to be Republican in

feeling and world view but the thing about the Queen is that she

has become an embodiment of national cohesion, of what is

essentially a federal country, as we will find out in 2014 when the

Scottish people vote, probably, to detach themselves somewhat from the

United Kingdom and it is interesting to me as an outsider to

note that she has managed to survive because she has been very

good at this idea of embodiment. At one time people -- things were

difficult for her, in 1997, when Diana died. People demanded, they

really did demand, a little more warmth and collective empathy from

her and she did make this extraordinary speech. Mina, we know

that Iraq has problems at the moment, would you be better with a

monarchy? Absolutely, I think our woes started when we lost our

monarchy. What the monarchy gives is the ability to have traditions

and to have a sense of a national identity. That is separate from all

of the politics which continues to flow. I think the idea of democracy

is not necessarily better kept in a republic. I think in the US, you

may not be subservient to the monarchy but you're a subservient

to the lobbyists and big money and so forth but surfing the greyness

of the monarchy here is the ability to have traditions and culture that

is also developing and has this amazing merger between tradition

and history. The idea that there is no traditional culture in these

other countries, the idea that it has to be personified by somebody

or other. We are very divided nation in Britain, particularly

politically between the right and the left and becoming more so. It

is entirely artificial, this bit of blue... With respect, your list of

complaints, all very well taken, but some of these are political

matters in the hands of those who govern this country, who may not do

the job properly. You cannot lay the blame at the door of the

monarchy of being in the way of progress. There was a great

constitutional historian who talked about the Republican disguise, with

the royal garb as it were. I agree, I am not worried about her...

think it is a political class that it is not doing the job as they

should and not a monarchy. comparison with Germany, we are in

Europe, the least socially mobile country, the most rigid. It is a

part of our imagery, that we think hereditary is OK, we think it is OK

to have a House of Lords, the only one in any democracy that is

hereditary. We have an extraordinary constitution. I did

thing that matters very much from the.... We are essentially a

democracy but I think the idea of being a fair society and whether

hereditary matters and that the rich will pass their money on to

their children. Look at what is happening in America in this

election season. There are are all too might -- ultra right-wing

billionaires who inherited their wealth, although they did build up

what they inherited, they are funding a vision of America as a

one-party state that allows them to pay their text. -- tax. Rupert

Murdoch also inherited a seat at the table. Inherited wealth can be

found in monarchies and republics equally. Alas that's true, but I do

think that week celebrated in this country and it makes it worse.

we celebrated, people in various ways will have a good weekend and

you will have fun this weekend. Celebrating his fine but I wish it

was Shakespeare's birthday. Would you accept that for most British

people, even if they don't think the monarchy works in theory

because they listen to some of the things you say and they may make

sense, but they think it may work in practice. It has provided, asked,

fares, stability and because they have no power, they are not a

threat to anyone. All these other countries a stable with perfectly

respectable precedents that nobody has ever heard of. -- presidents.

Germany tends to have a President and nobody has ever heard of which

is fine. You don't need a lot of razzmatazz. It is a small and

technical job. The Queen is very aware that you can never take the

crown for granted in this country, you have to work to keep it

accepted. One of the things I'm interested in is not her virtuous

nature of devotion to duty because too much is spent on that aspect

but I would rather concentrate on the motives behind it and she is so

crucially aware of the brittleness of the constitutional make-up.

Unless you keep working on the acceptability of the monarchy, you

can't rest on the laurels of an ancient institution. I think she is

a real politician, she goes on working furiously, thanks to a

health which allows her to do it. She works three days a week, five

days -- five months a year, always has done! The number of months a

year she is in Balmoral... final word on this from Mina.

recent poll from ICM says that 68% of British people actually support

the monarchy and 22% would want to abolish, so I think sadly it is the

majority. All good ideas start with a

radical... Universal suffrage for the boat started small. I think we

can argue about this all weekend. But it let us move on.

The massacres in Syria have led to the expulsion of Syrian diplomats

from Britain and many other countries. With the regime

diplomatically isolated, is there any real pressure outsiders can use

to stop the killings? Or is this in effect a civil war which has to go

on until the end? Mina, I do know very well this area

position about these massacres and killings being carried out by what

they call terrorists all rebels, does anybody believe that? No. I

don't believe anybody does believe that. I am not even sure the regime

believes it themselves. However, what is clear is that there are

pockets within the country that are not under full government control.

There are attacks that are being carried out by militias that belong

to the government or a supporter of the Government. At the moment this

blame game is all politics. On the ground what is happening is that

there is a disintegration of who actually carries arms in the

country. At the end the Government bears responsibility for that.

Presumably one implication of that is they may not even control the

people who support them, militias may discern things without even

being told by central government, even if they are morally

responsible. I believe they are responsible morally and in

actuality because I don't think the authority has lost that much

control yet. If they wanted to rein them in, they could. You know your

country, Iraq, has gone through. Do you fear the whole place may just

fall apart because of the religious and ethnic tensions? Of course,

that is a serious threat but what is even more worrying is that at

the moment nobody has a clear idea of where it can go. The outside

forces that you mentioned earlier, that can play a role, whether it is

Russia, where there it is the Turkish or different ends of the

spectrum, everybody seems to be at this focus on the Kofi Annan plan

because nobody else can come up with a better idea. Everybody knows

it is failing and there is time being lost. On the ground where

there is this disintegration, nobody is doing any work on what

should happen when that does happen. Some people will look to America

but Barack Obama has other things His biggest foreign challenges the

global economy. Even if he was half tempted to use drones to hit the

Assad motorcade, he can't. He simply won't. The other problem is

the nature of Syria. This patchwork of, I hate the shorthand because it

belies the complexity, but you have the Sunni Arabs, and the Christians

are not joining in. We have them all. This is why I say this, why

aren't Arab Christians joining in? The reason is that people feared

that Syrian National Council. It is yet to show how bona-fide it is.

Whatever we do to replace Assad, you will not suffer. They need to

say that. It is not that they will not trust those in the uprising,

over the last decade, on several occasions they have risen up in

Syria and been severely bloodied. You notice how quiet the Kurds are

now. They don't know what is happening in the western part of

the country. You have this terrible situation where the United States

is not going to get more involved more than now, which is not very

much. You have the fragments who might like to rise up, fearful of

what will happen if they do succeed and get rid of Assad. Britain and

France, you might as well say it is not going to be another Libya.

won't, it is much more difficult. We were lucky we did not get back

into something which might have been very difficult to cope with in

Libya. I think we could support the Turks a great deal more as a

European initiative, saying that we should help them do everything they

can. But we are standing on the sidelines looking on in horror. But

also being reminded of the nature of China and Russia and their

utterly destructive role in the un. Desperately depressing. I want to

latch on to that. We have two narratives. The political one as

long as Russia supports the current regime. Nothing you can do. The

other is the moral narrative. Watching these goings-on, the

deaths of innocent civilians. To watch it now, it puts a huge burden

on the moral conscience. I have no easy answer, but I am thinking what

comes after may be worse. For continuing unity in Syria, it would

be a huge cost, so shipping weapons may be one way of helping the

revolutionary guys but we don't know the outcome. You have to be

seen to be dealing with some of the aspects of the situation. I want to

give you the last words. On a serious note, there are steps which

could be taken. I want an arms embargo, I don't think arms would

solve anything. There should be serious pressure on an arms embargo.

We can't say there is nothing we can do. It is not a solution to

carry on killing each other. One has to be an arms embargo, the

second has to be to Telco the end and that the plan has failed. It

can't be something to hang everything on. Huge amounts of

money are being taken out of Spain as investors looked to save cash in

case Spain falls out of the euro. They may choose to support

political parties to promise an end to austerity, some saying they may

leave the euro. Is this the end game for the European common

currency. I wish you had not looked at me! I continue to invest in my

rational assessment, there is a huge amount of money untapped in

the IMF and central bank and the German economy. Somebody will

realise that, as we talk about Syria, if this exit from the euro

will gather pace you can't count since the breakdown of this

currency union. In the short, medium or long-term. More effort

will be spent on keeping it together. We will see forces come

to the fore. You have seen the result and Ireland, but what is

most depressing is the vote -- low voter participation. They have lost

faith in anything that politicians are coming up with. Somebody must

say that this has gone on for long enough, it is damaging our economic

prospects. Within Germany people are saying maybe Angela Merkel has

wasted a lot of political capital and energy on Greece and this is a

much bigger problem. It would be much worse if it fails. It would be

a much greater price for Germany. For that reason alone there is huge

pressure from the business community in Germany on Angela

Merkel to come up with an answer, even if it may mean more sacrifice.

The bigger sacrifice will come down the line. To what extent do you

think people look back on the crisis and say it could have been

stopped at the beginning it and landmark court had had the nerve at

the beginning to say "I don't care what happens, we'll put a fortress

around Europe". We will defend every country in the euro no matter

what. If it had been done with and If you remember, when it really

brought up last July, it was this very local problem with Greece. 90

days later it became apparent that the big players and the bond

markets were concentrating on Italy and Spain. It was this incremental

thing. Then there was the moment. People spoke about Greece as being

a domino to begin with. To what they saw they thought it could all

be contained if the Greeks did what they did, but she did not see the

world there way. Is the failure of leadership within Germany, to say

within Germany "we have done really well. Our exchange rates are low

and we are competitive" they should think "we owe Europe for this." it

may be a sales pitch which would work. We have seen the social

democratic parties gaining traction, because what is interesting about

the events this week, as we focus on Spain and the banking crisis, it

is very important to consider the clear fact, I never believed the

American employment situation was getting better. It is a globalised

economy, a globalised crisis. To focus on what is happening in

Europe is missing the point. I think the narrative may start to

change. It is not about reducing deficits drastically and all at the

same time. We need to grow and grow more or less together. That might

be a narrative for Germany. Yes, the point from the US, trying to

stimulate and grow the economy has helped the unemployment situation

in the US. It is down to 8.2 per cent. For a time it was at 10

percent and nobody had heard of it coming down. Unemployment is still

the biggest problem and there is a need to tackle it. It is now at 11

per cent across the EU. 25 per cent in Spain is staggering! You have to

have public spending programmes, look at Britain. It is at the end

of its tether. You need to think about how to improve infrastructure

and so forth. That is the way to go. The extraordinary figures today in

the bond markets, governments can borrow money for nothing. Germany,

Denmark. Our borrowing costs are so low, we could borrow and build

houses. A slightly narrower point. An extraordinary week in Britain. I

can't remember a week in which a couple of months with into a budget

a Chancellor does three you turn successively. A most remarkable

budget which has fallen apart piece by piece, week after week. More

pits have fallen off. U-turn after U-turn. But not the one which will

really be damaging. The one thing people will remember most is that

in the middle of this crisis, who got the tax cuts? The millionairess.

That is what will cause them harm through to the next election.

thing which is surprising to me is that Conservative MPs are defending,

very strongly, the fairly minor tax measures on the U turns. You can

make a case for them. For taxing hot food for example. If they don't

want to stick by those, people will then wonder what you will change

next. What is quite clear is that anything which is marginal, they

are willing to be quite inconsistent and flexible about.

They have a plan which is absolutely rigid. Deficit reduction

and privatisation. As long as they are old to this very strong plan

ideologically, reducing Britain For ever, something permanent and

unchallengeable by future governments. It looks like a global

economic slowdown. Things in Brazil and China are not that great.

in India there is a reported slow down. You can't just focus on the

euro. Globally it is no longer just the short-term confidence, people

are losing faith generally. You have countries like Greece and

Spain, like Portugal, although Portugal is doing better because of

production. Making things, rather than talking about random numbers.

People will lose confidence and to we go back to it. Going back to

Europe for a second. It is pretty clear that the consumption model of

capitalism that we have been dealing with has run out of steam.

You can't just keep expecting people to buy and buy more staff.

Then land and and so they can buy. That is not going to work any more.

If you come back to the euro. I am a rationalist. I think it will

survive, but it will be through political changes. I noticed the

speech by someone in Berlin, saying we will see a more federal Europe

emerge out of this. It will be a bit -- different political