09/02/2013 Dateline London

fought so skipping out of bed on a Monday morning and travelling, you

Welcome today line in London. In a week when slogans Warwick and

chanted accusing the government... Where would it all end? The Defence

Secretary a -- technologies for the first time that he supports arming

Syrian and rebels. And the discovery of 100 % horsemeat in

lasagne sold in the UK and Ireland. Can we be sure what is in our food?

Welcome to all of you. We will start with Tunisia. I know that you

want to talk about all speak but we will start in Tunisia. What are we

seeing here, because we have got a lot of worries said that instead of

being for the Arabs bring, it is slipping back? The fact that this

is the first assassination in Tunisia... Tunisia does not have a

violent political background. The fact that the revolution happened

with minimal casualties compared to Egypt and Syria, what we are seeing

is tension building up for months on end. Not just secular parties

but also people fighting for the future of the country. We have got

tension and anger on the street which is also building up because

expectations have not been met. People think that the true changes

of how the country is run and the role of the police has not really

taken place as hoped. This assassination is really the peak of

what we have seen. The idea of the militia is that it is disappointing

at least with the government at the moment. They have turned a blind

eye and we cannot be sure if the militia is run by the government

but a blind eye has been turned. For that reason, the fact that

security is slipping back, people need to be worried. And the

chanting of people saying that they once the downfall of the regime is

exactly the same has two years ago. It is a big regression and the

problem is if you start seeing assassinations in some of the other

countries, you could easily have a fair amount of chaos returning at

people will start asking what has been accomplished and what was that

carrots bring about? -- Arab spring. People look at Tunisia at the start

as the beginning of it all and it must be worrying at least. It was a

great tragedy. It was a perfect resolution -- revolution and not a

violent revolution. Some people are looking at these images and they

are lowering one country into another. But they are actually very

different with different histories. That is why it is sad to see if

this might be the beginning of Tunisia for the first time becoming

violent as well. There was such hope and that Arab its brain was

such a wonderful idea. -- Arab spring. And the hope that was there

is perhaps now extinguished. just that but we have got a serious

worry that what is happening there can have a catastrophic effect,

Europe. Italy is the first line of immigration from North Africa.

There is a concern with what we are seeing in Tunisia is that is hope

for democracy is becoming ugly. It is important to look at what the

modern is the mists are doing with the extreme Islamists. That is the

key thing to watch. They need to establish who did it. They need to

isolate the violence and then say, here are the Democratic moderates

and here are the people that are trying to fuel extremism. We need

other countries to try and help. And you mentioned the shock in the

country itself. How are ordinary people during their future? --

regarding. People are worried about security and about these militias.

And they are thugs and not in police uniforms and intimidating

people from different parties. Officers have been attacked. It has

been on both sides we have had attacks. Tunisia is different from

other parts of the Arab world. They have got a strong trade union

tradition and they are very strong. And the person assassinated had a

strong link with the trade unions. Many people in Tunisia are part of

trade unions. They are worried about the cladding doubt that was

happening and general striking. -- clamping down. What would the

American opinion be? They will be upset and it is part of a sense of

helplessness as they look at Egypt, Syria and this entire region and

the changes in the past couple of years. There is a sense that

American interests are no closer and if anything further away. I

think it is at the limit of American power. They will certainly

feel sadness that the democracy they were hoping for is far away.

Can it be recovered? It is very difficult to know. We must be

patient and remember how long it took for democracy to work in

Europe. It is a short time since we have stopped killing each other in

Europe. It does take hundreds of years sometimes and we are

expecting these countries to go through what has been a 1,000 year

history forecast with anyone year and I am not sure if that is

reasonable. People are saying they are uncivilised. Whiting Bay not

understand that with an election that is the end of the matter? --

why do they not understand. former US Defence Secretary told us

that he was actually in favour of arming the rebels fighting for

forces loyal to the President. -- fighting against. And then a report

was rebuffed by the White House. Given what they are saying and what

he has said this week, where do we go from here? The first answer is

that it would probably not have worked politically for President

Obama seeking re-election. The country would have been embroiled

in another foreign war and it is very hard to explain that two

Americans. Whether it would have me that terribly shifted the balance

of power and hastened the exit of Bashar al-Assad, I have not got a

clue. A lot of his top people were saying that you have to get

involved and you have to act in a humanitarian way and protect

civilians getting slaughtered. And President Obama and his trust said

it was too big a risk and they would not do it. If the question

was put to him now, do you think he would have a different opinion?

is being put to him now and I do not have a clue. It is a

complicated problem. Some people think they are being harmed by

somebody anyway. That is the point. Of course America is reluctant to

go on to the ground and why would they not be? But can we afford not

to? What we see happening in Mali and it is similar to Libya where

they are sorting the problem out and then you have got an army that

have moved elsewhere and you have got to be very careful. Looking

elsewhere is unfortunately not going to work. We need to find a

way to contain that threat because it is a direct threat to us. At the

same time we meet another means of civilising the area but certainly

we cannot just pretend this is going to go away because it will

not. It is interesting because given the other countries in the

Arab Spring, nobody wants to touch Syria. Because nobody knows what

the format will be and that is two dimensions, the humanitarian scale

of the problem, which is huge. A report was published about the

problems with water and sanitation and water treatment is down to just

10% and levels are down to historic levels. Everybody says that this is

happening on our watch and especially after the speeches

President Obama gave when he spoke about what happened in Bosnia and

that we would not let this happen again, it is happening again. And

the other side is the political fall-out. Israel have been bombing

the board refused days ago. We have got big problems in Iraq. Rebels

are saying let them keep fighting it out until one side is so

exhausted that they will surrender but I do not think that is a

solution and I think the solution has to be political. That short cut

is not going to work. Will they disarm or should the rebels be

armed? But you do not know who you are arming. You have no idea where

the weapons are going to end up and possibly they might be aimed

against yourself. I think in the end, discussions will be the only

answer. It looks like we have got an opening but some rebels are very

much against discussions. It looks like other people are involved in

trying to get some sort of an agreement. When you have got 60,000

dead and some sort of humanitarian catastrophe, aiming for peace seems

to be, even if it is less than satisfactory, it is better than a

small war when you do not know what the outcome will be. It is 22

months since it happened. The President you have said is probably

being asked these questions again. Can he sits there has leader of the

free world? He must take action. have heard this a not in the news

and I have a feeling he is not inclined. I do not see them taking

a more active stance. But it is guesswork. This is being decided at

the National Security Council with the top five, or six people but I

think she is hoping it is going to go away. I have been in and out of

the region for years and this is probably the worst humanitarian

situation we have confronted and the US is looking the other way. As

I do not know is that will last but I do not see the pressures being

brought upon him politically to make him change course. He is on

something of a high and he is focused on the domestic economy and

the battles with the Republicans and I think he is going to let this

drift, cruel as that sounds. That seems to be how he is leading.

it might not be the most self- interested thing. Are we sure that

Western intervention and particularly American does anything

other than stir up extremism and the idea that this is all an

outside invasion? Countries need to create their own founding myths.

You cannot create a good one out of America coming in and affecting the

outcome. I think in the end countries have to decide their fate.

It does not have to be American swooping in which troops and an

invasion but it is to take it from a political point of view. We have

seen that in meetings with opposition leaders. It is at least

taking that political interest which does not seem to have been

shown. Political interest his interest but it is not really

working on the ground. But it is better than not having it. It is

not a silver bullet so to speak but it is definitely better than theirs.

It is interesting that they are speaking about the ideas that they

have had, but they are now not in a position to do it, the former head

of the army and the former defence secretary. But they have met with

Bashar al-Assad several times and I think they will see a greater

interest coming out. Let us hope so. You mention the European threat.

Why do you think Syria is different There has been the traditional

influence of Russia in Syria, so I think that has been an issue.

Especially with the attitude that the Europeans have had two words

air. The intervention was very different to what happened in Libya.

Polly Toynbee was reminding us, it is difficult to understand who are

the good guys. Where do you call, who do you are, what do you do? It

is a complex situation, with the religious divisions. We knew the

situation was coming, so why was there not a plan? The thing we're

not mentioning his we have not used the word Iran. It is rather a

central to this. The reason there is no clear path and from Europe is

that nobody can figure out how Iran plays in up with Syria. -- are the

reason there is no clear plan from Europe. Syria is the most

complicated because there is no scenario where you can walk-in and

say, this will work. The US could have taken a more active

humanitarian role, providing relief for the people caught up in this.

But I do not see any great military solution to this. The UN in the

middle of this is seemingly impotent? It does look as if this

channel has opened up. The current leader of the opposition group,

insofar as it is a group, has quite a lot of support and is opening up

this channel with the UN. But quite a lot of his side have said that we

would not up to President Assad under any circumstances, apart from

how does he leave the country? Looking at what they were thinking

of doing, at the proposal was to arm carefully vetted rebel groups,

which they hoped would win them allies within the rebel ranks.

would call them and us, do you believe in human rights? It is very

hard. They will hear what they want to hear. We are all laughing

because it is completely impractical. We will leave that and

move on to the issue of food. We are what we eat, but do we know

exactly what we are eating? Not in the UK and Ireland, it would seem,

where horsemeat has been found in products instead of beef and pork

DNA in halal foods provided to prisoners. The Environment

Secretary says the evidence so far suggests it is either criminal

activity or gross negligence. No matter what do you think about

eating horsemeat, I think the issue is that we need to know what is in

our food. Absolutely. There are so many parts of the story. One is

that if I am buying something that says beef, I need to know that is

what it is. And then there is the prisoner's food, which was supposed

to be halal food, containing pork. After a mad cow disease, we are

just getting that safety and the procedures within it, but this is

criminal activity. The idea that this would be accepted as negligent

-- as negligence is not acceptable. The fact that all sides have said

there is going to be an investigation, that is good. The

fact that the Food Standards Agency are saying, keep buying packaged

food, because nothing has confirmed that this is bad for your health,

it is this idea of, please, keep beasting the industry. It has

spread out within Europe now, not just the UK and Ireland. Yes, for

the first time, horse-trading in Europe is starting to have another

meaning. This is a story that is very important. We need to stop and

think. We can see what is happening to horses sold in Poland and

Romania. We need more of Europe, not less Europe. When it comes to

food safety, we need more controls. But when it comes to Britain, this

is a story of putting profit before safety, simple as that. Mad cow

disease came about for exactly this reason. You are at it again. You

have not learned the lesson. It cost the industry billions. This

crisis will cost a lot to the economy. And it -- and the case for

the defence, aid seems that the suppliers have let down at the

companies involved. Why is this coming from Europe into Britain and

not other countries. I do not know. Polly Toynbee? We are seeing so

many things exposed in this story in an interesting way. These are

cheap products. If you buy a beefburger, I decent one, it will

cost �1. If you are a family living on the edge of poverty to buy these

products, and value products can cost 10 pence each. By lot these

disgusting beef burgers need have less than 50 % meat. They can have

30 % fat. They can have collagen, and it can have something up on the

packet that looks harmless called seasoning, that is actually made of

dried and ground-up animal hides. That base the protein content. And

people wonder why the poor in this country do not eat well and get fat.

These products are loaded with fat. It is about inequality. People like

us do not eat those products. At Findus lasagne, very cheap, utterly

disgusting. This is a company that was bought up by private equity.

There is a lovely picture in the Guardian today of the owner of the

company riding a polo pony. Perhaps he put that in it! The price of

beef has risen in the world but the price of horsemeat is 75 % cheaper.

The cheaper ingredient is being put in in the processing plants. I do

not blame Britain. I see this as coming from the Continent and the

suppliers. I suspect it is organised criminal activity and

people have been getting away with it for years and now they have been

caught. They must know that this thing will spread in the next week

or two. We are likely to see reports in many countries have

contaminated products. It is just a story about Sean Bean is in this

quest for profit, whether it is a criminal gang or corporations, they

will do whatever they can get away with to cut corners, whether it is

safety in cars or labelling in food. The consumers cannot trust what

they are buying. So, more regulation? I would never call for

more regulation from Brussels. It sounds naive, but better

enforcement, just a sense of decency that you do not market

something as beef when you know it is horsemeat. There is one aspect

to this, people might turn away from processed food and go back to

buying locally and making their own dinner? If they can afford it. We

are going to have a million more children living in poverty at the

end of this Parliament. One million extra. There are so many families

that can really only afford to buy the very cheapest. We have three

new food banks opening every week for people who cannot afford any

food at all. They do not have choices. We can all say, I eat

healthily, but children will not eat vegetables. You end up buying

beefburgers and hoping for the best. This is a big social question. What

we eat is what we are, but also what we are as a society. If there

is a movement in its late that has started. They say that what we are

is what we eat and foodies energy for every human being on the planet.

We have to start sourcing products locally. The reason it happens in

Britain but not in France or Italy, is that because in Italy and France

there is a culture of local food. It does not bring people to buy

processed food that you buy in Britain. There have been scandals

in Italy. Yes, but in Italy you do eat horsemeat, but it is supposed

to be a delicacy. It is part of the local tradition and something that

happens next door to you. How do we get back to a more a kind of local

economy that reduces food that you can know when it comes from?

comes back to money. Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. This is

people that cannot afford to go to their local butcher who has a

beautiful display of the best products. It is the lack of the

ability to buy the products. Hopefully this will encourage

regulation, not necessarily from Brussels, that allows people to get

quality products at a decent price. Having said that, the most

immediate issue is to the Package figs out there in the stores now,

it is being said that they are safe to eat. I do not think that is

necessarily right. -- the packaged foods. Even the labelling, if they

are right, it does not tell you what is in there. Think about

animal hides ground-up as seasoning. That is all for now.