Browse content similar to 09/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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fought so skipping out of bed on a Monday morning and travelling, you | :00:02. | :00:12. | |
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Welcome today line in London. In a week when slogans Warwick and | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
chanted accusing the government... Where would it all end? The Defence | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
Secretary a -- technologies for the first time that he supports arming | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
Syrian and rebels. And the discovery of 100 % horsemeat in | :00:49. | :00:59. | |
:00:59. | :01:05. | ||
lasagne sold in the UK and Ireland. Can we be sure what is in our food? | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
Welcome to all of you. We will start with Tunisia. I know that you | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
want to talk about all speak but we will start in Tunisia. What are we | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
seeing here, because we have got a lot of worries said that instead of | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
being for the Arabs bring, it is slipping back? The fact that this | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
is the first assassination in Tunisia... Tunisia does not have a | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
violent political background. The fact that the revolution happened | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
with minimal casualties compared to Egypt and Syria, what we are seeing | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
is tension building up for months on end. Not just secular parties | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
but also people fighting for the future of the country. We have got | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
tension and anger on the street which is also building up because | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
expectations have not been met. People think that the true changes | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
of how the country is run and the role of the police has not really | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
taken place as hoped. This assassination is really the peak of | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
what we have seen. The idea of the militia is that it is disappointing | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
at least with the government at the moment. They have turned a blind | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
eye and we cannot be sure if the militia is run by the government | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
but a blind eye has been turned. For that reason, the fact that | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
security is slipping back, people need to be worried. And the | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
chanting of people saying that they once the downfall of the regime is | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
exactly the same has two years ago. It is a big regression and the | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
problem is if you start seeing assassinations in some of the other | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
countries, you could easily have a fair amount of chaos returning at | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
people will start asking what has been accomplished and what was that | :03:00. | :03:10. | |
:03:10. | :03:13. | ||
carrots bring about? -- Arab spring. People look at Tunisia at the start | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
as the beginning of it all and it must be worrying at least. It was a | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
great tragedy. It was a perfect resolution -- revolution and not a | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
violent revolution. Some people are looking at these images and they | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
are lowering one country into another. But they are actually very | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
different with different histories. That is why it is sad to see if | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
this might be the beginning of Tunisia for the first time becoming | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
violent as well. There was such hope and that Arab its brain was | :03:47. | :03:56. | |
such a wonderful idea. -- Arab spring. And the hope that was there | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
is perhaps now extinguished. just that but we have got a serious | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
worry that what is happening there can have a catastrophic effect, | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
Europe. Italy is the first line of immigration from North Africa. | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
There is a concern with what we are seeing in Tunisia is that is hope | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
for democracy is becoming ugly. It is important to look at what the | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
modern is the mists are doing with the extreme Islamists. That is the | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
key thing to watch. They need to establish who did it. They need to | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
isolate the violence and then say, here are the Democratic moderates | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
and here are the people that are trying to fuel extremism. We need | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
other countries to try and help. And you mentioned the shock in the | :04:55. | :05:03. | |
country itself. How are ordinary people during their future? -- | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
regarding. People are worried about security and about these militias. | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
And they are thugs and not in police uniforms and intimidating | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
people from different parties. Officers have been attacked. It has | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
been on both sides we have had attacks. Tunisia is different from | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
other parts of the Arab world. They have got a strong trade union | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
tradition and they are very strong. And the person assassinated had a | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
strong link with the trade unions. Many people in Tunisia are part of | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
trade unions. They are worried about the cladding doubt that was | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
happening and general striking. -- clamping down. What would the | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
American opinion be? They will be upset and it is part of a sense of | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
helplessness as they look at Egypt, Syria and this entire region and | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
the changes in the past couple of years. There is a sense that | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
American interests are no closer and if anything further away. I | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
think it is at the limit of American power. They will certainly | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
feel sadness that the democracy they were hoping for is far away. | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
Can it be recovered? It is very difficult to know. We must be | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
patient and remember how long it took for democracy to work in | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
Europe. It is a short time since we have stopped killing each other in | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
Europe. It does take hundreds of years sometimes and we are | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
expecting these countries to go through what has been a 1,000 year | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
history forecast with anyone year and I am not sure if that is | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
reasonable. People are saying they are uncivilised. Whiting Bay not | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
understand that with an election that is the end of the matter? -- | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
why do they not understand. former US Defence Secretary told us | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
that he was actually in favour of arming the rebels fighting for | :07:17. | :07:26. | |
:07:27. | :07:28. | ||
forces loyal to the President. -- fighting against. And then a report | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
was rebuffed by the White House. Given what they are saying and what | :07:33. | :07:41. | |
he has said this week, where do we go from here? The first answer is | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
that it would probably not have worked politically for President | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
Obama seeking re-election. The country would have been embroiled | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
in another foreign war and it is very hard to explain that two | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Americans. Whether it would have me that terribly shifted the balance | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
of power and hastened the exit of Bashar al-Assad, I have not got a | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
clue. A lot of his top people were saying that you have to get | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
involved and you have to act in a humanitarian way and protect | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
civilians getting slaughtered. And President Obama and his trust said | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
it was too big a risk and they would not do it. If the question | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
was put to him now, do you think he would have a different opinion? | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
is being put to him now and I do not have a clue. It is a | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
complicated problem. Some people think they are being harmed by | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
somebody anyway. That is the point. Of course America is reluctant to | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
go on to the ground and why would they not be? But can we afford not | :08:48. | :08:56. | |
to? What we see happening in Mali and it is similar to Libya where | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
they are sorting the problem out and then you have got an army that | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
have moved elsewhere and you have got to be very careful. Looking | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
elsewhere is unfortunately not going to work. We need to find a | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
way to contain that threat because it is a direct threat to us. At the | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
same time we meet another means of civilising the area but certainly | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
we cannot just pretend this is going to go away because it will | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
not. It is interesting because given the other countries in the | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
Arab Spring, nobody wants to touch Syria. Because nobody knows what | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
the format will be and that is two dimensions, the humanitarian scale | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
of the problem, which is huge. A report was published about the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
problems with water and sanitation and water treatment is down to just | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
10% and levels are down to historic levels. Everybody says that this is | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
happening on our watch and especially after the speeches | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
President Obama gave when he spoke about what happened in Bosnia and | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
that we would not let this happen again, it is happening again. And | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
the other side is the political fall-out. Israel have been bombing | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
the board refused days ago. We have got big problems in Iraq. Rebels | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
are saying let them keep fighting it out until one side is so | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
exhausted that they will surrender but I do not think that is a | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
solution and I think the solution has to be political. That short cut | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
is not going to work. Will they disarm or should the rebels be | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
armed? But you do not know who you are arming. You have no idea where | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
the weapons are going to end up and possibly they might be aimed | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
against yourself. I think in the end, discussions will be the only | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
answer. It looks like we have got an opening but some rebels are very | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
much against discussions. It looks like other people are involved in | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
trying to get some sort of an agreement. When you have got 60,000 | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
dead and some sort of humanitarian catastrophe, aiming for peace seems | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
to be, even if it is less than satisfactory, it is better than a | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
small war when you do not know what the outcome will be. It is 22 | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
months since it happened. The President you have said is probably | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
being asked these questions again. Can he sits there has leader of the | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
free world? He must take action. have heard this a not in the news | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
and I have a feeling he is not inclined. I do not see them taking | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
a more active stance. But it is guesswork. This is being decided at | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
the National Security Council with the top five, or six people but I | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
think she is hoping it is going to go away. I have been in and out of | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
the region for years and this is probably the worst humanitarian | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
situation we have confronted and the US is looking the other way. As | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
I do not know is that will last but I do not see the pressures being | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
brought upon him politically to make him change course. He is on | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
something of a high and he is focused on the domestic economy and | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
the battles with the Republicans and I think he is going to let this | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
drift, cruel as that sounds. That seems to be how he is leading. | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
it might not be the most self- interested thing. Are we sure that | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Western intervention and particularly American does anything | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
other than stir up extremism and the idea that this is all an | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
outside invasion? Countries need to create their own founding myths. | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
You cannot create a good one out of America coming in and affecting the | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
outcome. I think in the end countries have to decide their fate. | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
It does not have to be American swooping in which troops and an | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
invasion but it is to take it from a political point of view. We have | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
seen that in meetings with opposition leaders. It is at least | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
taking that political interest which does not seem to have been | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
shown. Political interest his interest but it is not really | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
working on the ground. But it is better than not having it. It is | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
not a silver bullet so to speak but it is definitely better than theirs. | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
It is interesting that they are speaking about the ideas that they | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
have had, but they are now not in a position to do it, the former head | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
of the army and the former defence secretary. But they have met with | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
Bashar al-Assad several times and I think they will see a greater | :13:56. | :14:05. | |
interest coming out. Let us hope so. You mention the European threat. | :14:05. | :14:15. | |
:14:15. | :14:23. | ||
Why do you think Syria is different There has been the traditional | :14:23. | :14:33. | |
:14:33. | :14:34. | ||
influence of Russia in Syria, so I think that has been an issue. | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
Especially with the attitude that the Europeans have had two words | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
air. The intervention was very different to what happened in Libya. | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
Polly Toynbee was reminding us, it is difficult to understand who are | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
the good guys. Where do you call, who do you are, what do you do? It | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
is a complex situation, with the religious divisions. We knew the | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
situation was coming, so why was there not a plan? The thing we're | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
not mentioning his we have not used the word Iran. It is rather a | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
central to this. The reason there is no clear path and from Europe is | :15:17. | :15:27. | |
that nobody can figure out how Iran plays in up with Syria. -- are the | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
reason there is no clear plan from Europe. Syria is the most | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
complicated because there is no scenario where you can walk-in and | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
say, this will work. The US could have taken a more active | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
humanitarian role, providing relief for the people caught up in this. | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
But I do not see any great military solution to this. The UN in the | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
middle of this is seemingly impotent? It does look as if this | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
channel has opened up. The current leader of the opposition group, | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
insofar as it is a group, has quite a lot of support and is opening up | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
this channel with the UN. But quite a lot of his side have said that we | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
would not up to President Assad under any circumstances, apart from | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
how does he leave the country? Looking at what they were thinking | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
of doing, at the proposal was to arm carefully vetted rebel groups, | :16:28. | :16:38. | |
which they hoped would win them allies within the rebel ranks. | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
would call them and us, do you believe in human rights? It is very | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
hard. They will hear what they want to hear. We are all laughing | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
because it is completely impractical. We will leave that and | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
move on to the issue of food. We are what we eat, but do we know | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
exactly what we are eating? Not in the UK and Ireland, it would seem, | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
where horsemeat has been found in products instead of beef and pork | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
DNA in halal foods provided to prisoners. The Environment | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
Secretary says the evidence so far suggests it is either criminal | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
activity or gross negligence. No matter what do you think about | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
eating horsemeat, I think the issue is that we need to know what is in | :17:19. | :17:27. | |
our food. Absolutely. There are so many parts of the story. One is | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
that if I am buying something that says beef, I need to know that is | :17:30. | :17:39. | |
what it is. And then there is the prisoner's food, which was supposed | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
to be halal food, containing pork. After a mad cow disease, we are | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
just getting that safety and the procedures within it, but this is | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
criminal activity. The idea that this would be accepted as negligent | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
-- as negligence is not acceptable. The fact that all sides have said | :18:04. | :18:14. | |
:18:14. | :18:14. | ||
there is going to be an investigation, that is good. The | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
fact that the Food Standards Agency are saying, keep buying packaged | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
food, because nothing has confirmed that this is bad for your health, | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
it is this idea of, please, keep beasting the industry. It has | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
spread out within Europe now, not just the UK and Ireland. Yes, for | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
the first time, horse-trading in Europe is starting to have another | :18:38. | :18:48. | |
meaning. This is a story that is very important. We need to stop and | :18:48. | :18:58. | |
:18:58. | :18:59. | ||
think. We can see what is happening to horses sold in Poland and | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
Romania. We need more of Europe, not less Europe. When it comes to | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
food safety, we need more controls. But when it comes to Britain, this | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
is a story of putting profit before safety, simple as that. Mad cow | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
disease came about for exactly this reason. You are at it again. You | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
have not learned the lesson. It cost the industry billions. This | :19:30. | :19:39. | |
crisis will cost a lot to the economy. And it -- and the case for | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
the defence, aid seems that the suppliers have let down at the | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
companies involved. Why is this coming from Europe into Britain and | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
not other countries. I do not know. Polly Toynbee? We are seeing so | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
many things exposed in this story in an interesting way. These are | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
cheap products. If you buy a beefburger, I decent one, it will | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
cost �1. If you are a family living on the edge of poverty to buy these | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
products, and value products can cost 10 pence each. By lot these | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
disgusting beef burgers need have less than 50 % meat. They can have | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
30 % fat. They can have collagen, and it can have something up on the | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
packet that looks harmless called seasoning, that is actually made of | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
dried and ground-up animal hides. That base the protein content. And | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
people wonder why the poor in this country do not eat well and get fat. | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
These products are loaded with fat. It is about inequality. People like | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
us do not eat those products. At Findus lasagne, very cheap, utterly | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
disgusting. This is a company that was bought up by private equity. | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
There is a lovely picture in the Guardian today of the owner of the | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
company riding a polo pony. Perhaps he put that in it! The price of | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
beef has risen in the world but the price of horsemeat is 75 % cheaper. | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
The cheaper ingredient is being put in in the processing plants. I do | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
not blame Britain. I see this as coming from the Continent and the | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
suppliers. I suspect it is organised criminal activity and | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
people have been getting away with it for years and now they have been | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
caught. They must know that this thing will spread in the next week | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
or two. We are likely to see reports in many countries have | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
contaminated products. It is just a story about Sean Bean is in this | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
quest for profit, whether it is a criminal gang or corporations, they | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
will do whatever they can get away with to cut corners, whether it is | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
safety in cars or labelling in food. The consumers cannot trust what | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
they are buying. So, more regulation? I would never call for | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
more regulation from Brussels. It sounds naive, but better | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
enforcement, just a sense of decency that you do not market | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
something as beef when you know it is horsemeat. There is one aspect | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
to this, people might turn away from processed food and go back to | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
buying locally and making their own dinner? If they can afford it. We | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
are going to have a million more children living in poverty at the | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
end of this Parliament. One million extra. There are so many families | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
that can really only afford to buy the very cheapest. We have three | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
new food banks opening every week for people who cannot afford any | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
food at all. They do not have choices. We can all say, I eat | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
healthily, but children will not eat vegetables. You end up buying | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
beefburgers and hoping for the best. This is a big social question. What | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
we eat is what we are, but also what we are as a society. If there | :23:31. | :23:40. | |
is a movement in its late that has started. They say that what we are | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
is what we eat and foodies energy for every human being on the planet. | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
We have to start sourcing products locally. The reason it happens in | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
Britain but not in France or Italy, is that because in Italy and France | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
there is a culture of local food. It does not bring people to buy | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
processed food that you buy in Britain. There have been scandals | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
in Italy. Yes, but in Italy you do eat horsemeat, but it is supposed | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
to be a delicacy. It is part of the local tradition and something that | :24:19. | :24:27. | |
happens next door to you. How do we get back to a more a kind of local | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
economy that reduces food that you can know when it comes from? | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
comes back to money. Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. This is | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
people that cannot afford to go to their local butcher who has a | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
beautiful display of the best products. It is the lack of the | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
ability to buy the products. Hopefully this will encourage | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
regulation, not necessarily from Brussels, that allows people to get | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
quality products at a decent price. Having said that, the most | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
immediate issue is to the Package figs out there in the stores now, | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
it is being said that they are safe to eat. I do not think that is | :25:11. | :25:21. | |
:25:21. | :25:28. | ||
necessarily right. -- the packaged foods. Even the labelling, if they | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
are right, it does not tell you what is in there. Think about | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
animal hides ground-up as seasoning. That is all for now. | :25:38. | :25:42. |