16/02/2013 Dateline London


16/02/2013

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Welcome to Dateline London. The European horsemeat scandal will

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have changed the way we eat and the constant demand for ever cheaper

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food. North Korea's nuclear test. His East Asia the world's most

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dangerous flashpoint? And the Pope resigns. But how does it - at how

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much does it really matter who his successor will be? My guests today

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are Eunice Goes, Ned Temko and Mustapha Karkouti. It would appear

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that all of Europe is worried what is in our sausages, mincemeat,

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burgers and kebabs, and whether it is before horse. What does this

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gamble tell us about the food we eat and the regulations all laws

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governing those who produce it? It's been a bit of a shock. You

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being the horse expert. Yes, it's a bizarre crisis. Basically, it's one

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of these food crisis which is not about health. I witness the fact

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you ate horsemeat on Newsnight. yes, but I volunteered to do it.

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Which is the key. It's about knowing what it says on the label

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is what you are eating. There's all sorts of other cultural issues.

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Basically, we have these primal taboos about what we will eat and

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what we won't eat. They vary from country to country, so that frog's

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legs in France are a delicacy but I daresay most Brits would say yuk at

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the notion of a frog Berger or horse Berger. That's part of it.

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The real problem is in a modern food industry, where less and less

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of our food is locally-produced from farms that are near a

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restaurant. There's a demand for cheaper prices. He's ready meals,

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these huge caterers who do schools, hospitals and businesses. It's

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almost impossible to control. The supply line is so long. That was

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what I was going to raise. The thing that seemed extraordinary to

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me is we have learnt they might be some meat from Romania properly

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labelled, it might be going through suppliers in France, Spain,

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Luxembourg, who knows where, and ending up in other places in

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lasagne or something that it shouldn't be in. That's the thing

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that is extraordinary. In Britain we think we produce pretty good

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beef. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered that in the Gulf as well.

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A lot of supermarket chains in Europe, they have branches. For a

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lot of frozen food. A lot of frozen food is yet to be discovered. But

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what comes to me... Camel meat is quite available. It is delicious.

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But on the funny side of it, it is quite expectantly, you read in the

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newspaper... His horse culture? -- his horse -- his horse kosher?

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There are much tighter controls and the scale is smaller. Whenever

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there's a food crisis... And also butchers. The Good Family Butcher.

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Halal meat and none halal meat, when I first came to this country

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in the 70s, in every corner almost you had a butcher. You go and pick

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your piece of meat. Your piece of course it personally. But now there

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are no longer these shops. There are fewer of them. I know one where

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the boccia very probably took me into his cold store and said, I

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know where this comes from. You trust him. Mentioning these

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butchers and going back to the Gulf, when you go to a supermarket you

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have a corner for a meat, a corner for fish. You can still pick your

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own meat by pointing at 80 and see There's no real food inspections.

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The recession crisis has led to huge cutbacks and public agencies.

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Unfortunately, the food regulatory agency has had huge cutbacks.

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There's been no inspections on meat. But I think this points at a big

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problem in our modern society that I think is going to become bigger.

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We are not ready to pay a great deal of money for the food we

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consume. So that you can buy for �2, half a dozen frozen burgers and you

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can feel -- VE Day family like that. If we don't ask ourselves, how can

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we buy so much food for so little money, of course there's going to

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be cut back somewhere because the producers, they need to make money.

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They have to earn a living out of what they do. So it is consumers

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and their desire for cheap food, spending less and less of our

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budgets on the food we consume. Again, it's the supermarkets

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because they have a big responsibility in this. They impose

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on producers, on the farmers, huge reductions in prices. The farmers

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have practically no profit margins for them to sustain their

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livelihood. A one thing I noticed is over the past few years, we in

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Britain tend to think that the Mediterranean diet, people are

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prepared to pay more for their food and are a bit more picky, but we

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have had the crisis in Spain a few years ago, it was disgusting,

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people got very ill. So it's not confined to some sort of northern

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European rush to the bottom. think it's quite widespread. In a

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climate of crisis where everyone's incomes have suffered, we in

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Portugal, Portuguese families have had 30 to 40 % reduction in their

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family incomes. They have to feed their children. People are cutting

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down on quality. People are not asking themselves, where does this

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could come from? This is perhaps the question we need to ask.

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Perhaps leading to a much more radical change in our diets. We

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don't need to eat meat every day. Maybe if we invest in good quality

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meet you at times, maybe that would be doing a favour for everyone.

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John? To me, the loudest sound of the week has been the bolting of

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stable doors, in this country in particular. It seems the Food

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Standards Agency ones to blame the supermarkets. Others want to blame

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the Romanians. Anybody but ourselves. The fact is Des at Food

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Standards Agency in this country with nearly 2000 employees, which

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is costing the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds a year. Surely

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it would have been reasonable to expect that the FSA would, either

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through its own -- inspections and tests at the supermarkets, would by

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now, it's been in business for 10 years or so, would by now have

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given us a system where we can be assured that this kind of thing

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wouldn't happen. It is quite plain that they haven't. The other

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thought I'd had watching this, as somebody who loves to go to the

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races. I don't know a lot about horse racing, but one of the

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delights of an English summer is to spend an afternoon at Newmarket or

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of Ascot. There's a degree of hypocrisy. Why are we so outraged

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at the idea that there might be horsemeat in our burgers? Because

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we love horses. Horses have a special place another culture. Yet

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the fact is that race horses, not only racecourses but all kinds of

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horses, once their day has run, if they are not among the lucky ones,

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the minority that go to some respectable retirement, are taken

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straight to the abattoir. I think that is something that the horse

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racing industry might want to look at. I don't expect to see the top

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breed horses to be part of it. We don't know what kind of courses

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they are. But they are. That's one reason why it in quite a lot of

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these cases they've found this drug, bute, which is widely used in horse

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racing. I want the bigger picture. These are hard times for a lot of

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people, and people will naturally try to save money. When you look

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into it, the questioners - what will be next? I've talked to some

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food experts who say, well, you could look at some prepared fish

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meals. Is it really that good fish you think it is? Most of the fish

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we eat is farmed fish. We don't know what kind of food they are

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giving to the fish. I'm pretty sure that many of these farmers are

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giving them what they need, but there was gambles in the past where

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fish were being fed animal protein. It is basically the complete

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perversion of the food chain. of the problems of this modern food

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industry is particularly but prepared meals. But almost any kind

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of food now has preservatives, additives. Except in rare occasions

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where you know the butcher and you go to a local restaurant and pay a

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lot of money, you are not going to get unadulterated anything. That's

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true of vegetables as well. sorry to bang on about this, but it

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struck me reading about the food standards agency this week that it

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bore some similarities to the Financial Services Authority.

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just in the initials! Which we thought we could rely on to keep

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our banks and investment industry honest, and they failed to do that.

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Which you were right to identify as the only potential political

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timeline in this. As long as it's not a major public health crisis,

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this, too, will pass. But the regular Tory issue is important.

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But there's huge collusion between the regulations and the industry.

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There's a revolving door between the industry and the regulators.

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This was already the case 10 years ago. On the banks as well.

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Absolutely. This is probably a... Its related to the bigger question

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about the nature of capitalism, current capitalism, the lack of

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regulation, the desire for no regulation. The winks and nods that

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lead to huge collusion between governments and defence sectors of

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the economy. I want to comment on a slightly different aspect of this.

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The prospect of the EU and the United States signing a huge trade

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pact, which to many people is this great free-trade area. One of the

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disadvantages some Europeans say is that American food is not as great

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as some Americans would have us believe. There's a lot of hormones

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in the beef and the use of antibiotics is quite worrying and

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they are not as well regulated as in Europe. Is that a concern in the

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US, or is that not something people notice? I do not live in the United

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States. I've not noticed a, reading the New York Times or elsewhere,

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that it has been a huge public issue. I think it is an issue

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amongst people who are engaged with public health. There are certainly

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some people who feel strongly about this. I would have thought it could

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become a major bone of contention between the United States and

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Europe. Not only respective needs but grains as well. I think John is

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right. One of the ironies is it is a huge industry, so there's a

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larger regular Tory a framework. But it my impression is that on a

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lot of specific issues, American regulations are tighter. Take bute,

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for instance, which is permitted in some circumstances in Britain and

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some European countries we used on humans. But as far as I know, it

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was a listed in the US. It will be one more complexity in the

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framework of regulation, because it's hard enough regulating the EU

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from Brussels, to kind of mesh these... All of this is connected.

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In an increasingly global rising world, how do we govern these

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problems and govern them It is going into the direction of

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it being healthy all unhealthy. It is really about the fraud. We will

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probably end up with a hit in collaboration between two or three

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parties. The great irony is the initial response was blamed the

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Romanians. North Korea's nuclear test his regarded by a areca palm

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as a potential threat to the US. His East Asia a place where it is a

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result of blundering brinkmanship or the fact that a serious conflict

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might breakout? It seems to be the calibrating towards this. I have

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probably said this before. I am not an expert, but on nasty places, I

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am. I have visited my fair share of them. Along with Iraq, it is the

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nastiest place I have ever been. Saddam Hussein didn't care to hide

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his brutality where as Camille -- Kim Will Young has. We know they

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are to people in labour camps being subjected to the most appalling

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treatment. We have shipped people and -- we have shipped oil to them

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and done everything to persuade them to be good citizens at and

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none has work. The principal responsibility for this lies not

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with the US but with China. China is any position to do something

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about it but they are afraid of the collapse of North Korea leaving

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them with, in effect, a West Germany problem, that there will be

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20 million or more people who are already in a state of destitution.

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The same is true of South Korea as well. Are they a threat? If they

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can treat their own people like that domestically, why should we

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think there we are safe ourselves, once they get the means to attack.

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The rationale behind it is Seoul is not very far away from the border.

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Pyongyang is saying they still want peace with the United States

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because they are officially at war. There is a brinkmanship game at.

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Now we have a nuclear weapon. This is all about sharing that they have

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nuclear weapons. They might read the United States. This is about

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them giving them what they want. A peace treaty or food. They have

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been managing this very well. Since they started new -- using their

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nuclear testing, they have been doing this. What kind of threats

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can the West issue to North Korea? Not very much because once a

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country has nuclear weapons, they are uncontrollable and become very

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dangerous. That is the rationale. There is an unpleasant argument for

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the West to face. Once you have nuclear weapons, you are less

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likely to be attacked. There were talks that Iran was present at this

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North Korean nuclear test. I don't know if this is true, they have

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been reports in the Israeli press about that. They want it to

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demonstrate that Iran has a fully workable nuclear programme. You

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know you were going to be safe and not going to be attacked if you

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possess nuclear weapons and that is where they are done this. John

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Maden interesting point about China. For China to come out strongly

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criticising the latest nuclear tests of career -- Korea, it pushes

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them to reconsider China's position. The US would not go fully-fledged

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towards North Korea and upsetting China, taking into account the

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considerable amount of national interest of the US and China. The

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appeasement, I can see the development of a similar scenario

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in the Middle East, like Syria. We may see a similar situation to that

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of North Korea. With nuclear weapons? Not necessarily. They have

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been there for two years and it may go on for five years. You would end

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up with the US and Russia, like Korea and China. There is two kinds

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of nuclear proliferation. Most people would say it is all bad,

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whenever you get a nuclear state, that is not a good thing. There is

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a special category. When India and Pakistan had a bomb, Mr seemed that

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even if there was another shooting war, there is a vanishing

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possibility that India or Pakistan is going to nuke the other.

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Some American President, if not this one, they will have to

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seriously consider whether or not you can strike those weapons.

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very difficult. One of the problems with this process is when you have

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had your third nuclear test in quite a few years, you are pretty

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much past the point of no return. The key is, what is in China's

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minds? The key is not so much the refugees. To China see this as a

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buffer against the rest of East Asia? What you said about India and

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Pakistan is right. Iran and Israel will not bomb each other because of

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proximity. We will move on. I want to talk about Pope Benedict's

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decision to resign. How has that gone down in Portugal? Given that

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the Church stands for continuity, do we make too much of who is going

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to take over? A so-called liberal or a so-called Conservative?

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course it was noticed and he was a front page news stories for a

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couple of days and there were discussions like everywhere else.

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The Catholic Church is a spent force in Europe. Also in southern

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Europe where his is the strongest. They some interest and there is a

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big debate whether it will be somebody from Africa and the

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strongest contender is this Nigerian the cardinal. For the

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reason why you say that is a more secular Europe. No one is paying

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attention to what the Catholic Church's saying in Europe. People

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are still baptising and having religious weddings because it is

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pretty, not because it is a question of faith. If you look at

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Portugal and the birth rates, it is one of the lowest birth rates in

:22:16.:22:21.

Europe. Cohabitation is on the rise. In terms of a moral force in the

:22:21.:22:30.

country, it is exhausted. The shadow of corruption, the Catholic

:22:30.:22:37.

church in Europe, collaborating with the fascists and the child

:22:37.:22:43.

abuse scandal, there is fatigue. a way I should disqualify myself

:22:43.:22:50.

because I am not a Catholic. It is not the Europe I know. It seems to

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me that it is a brave thing to discount the power of the Catholic

:22:55.:22:59.

church in Europe. It is true what you say they have been terrible

:22:59.:23:09.
:23:09.:23:10.

scandals, that church attendance has fallen off. The latent power of

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the Church is very considerable and I personally, although an Anglican,

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was deeply sorry to see this Pope retire. I saw him and followed him

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when he came to this country two or three years ago. I was told by one

:23:25.:23:29.

of his senior aides that he was deeply apprehensive on the

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aeroplane here coming from Rome because of the paedophilia scandal,

:23:33.:23:38.

because he is coming to a country that is overwhelmingly Protestant.

:23:38.:23:42.

He was afraid, because the media had warned him that there would be

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so, that there would be protests in the streets. Where the he went,

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there were huge crowds, he was hugely popular and because like his

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predecessor, he represented something of essential goodness, a

:23:57.:24:05.

continuity, and unshakeable Etty, good and bad, which people find in

:24:05.:24:12.

an uncertain way, reassuring. Christian numbers going to church

:24:12.:24:16.

is dwindling but the Catholic Church still enjoys tremendous

:24:16.:24:26.
:24:26.:24:30.

power financially and the Conor Macauley -- economically. The

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Catholic Church in America is $130 billion. One final point I want

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from the other point of view, this particular Pope antagonised Muslims

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two years ago when he quoted one of the Catholic Church's colour as

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describing Muslims as a violent Islam, a violent religion.

:24:57.:25:03.

antagonised lots of people. One of the interesting things that I will

:25:03.:25:10.

conclude his although I a Pinkie is a good man, I don't think you can

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