19/10/2013 Dateline London


19/10/2013

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should leave the UK takes place next September. I will be back with a

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full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now on BBC News Dateline

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London with Gavin Esler. Hello and welcome to Dateline

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London. The British economy on the road to

:00:25.:00:28.

recovery ` so why do so many people still feel the pinch? Selling

:00:29.:00:30.

Britain in China. And the Norwegian national involved in the killings in

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Kenya. Why? My guests today are ` Mustapha

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Karkouti of Gulf News, Isabel Hilton of China Dialogue, Agnes Poirier of

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Marianne and Ashis Ray who is an Indian writer. Welcome to you.

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Unemployment in Britain is going down and growth forecasts are. But

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all over Britain there are signs of people being squeezed. A charity

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report suggests that the number of people using food banks, do we face

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a crisis and living standards? The Labour Party is saying that. Yes, I

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think that is absolutely right. Although the figures of late show a

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modest improvement, I think basically there are two points that

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remain. One, unemployment is still around 7.7%, which is much too high.

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Secondly, the size of the UK economy today is still more than 3% smaller

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than what it was at the time of the meltdown in 2008. That said, I think

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during the periods of Britain after that your, it is true to say that a

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section of the rich have become richer, and a section of the pure

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have become cooler. The next `` net result of this is being felt.

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Utility costs have gone up, food prices have gone up, petrol prices

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are still high. Condensation of it all is causing distress in the

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market. `` condemnation. It could have been much worse. It is not

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Spain, it is not 25% unemployment. It is not as bad as it could have

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been and there are those who would seek it is true is `` living

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standards have been squeezed. People are taking real wage cuts and have

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done for several years. It is interesting that you say 7.7%

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unemployment is still too big. In France it is more than 10%. I think

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it shows the nature of the labour market in the UK is very flexible.

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Therefore it will bounce back much quicker than the French labour

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market, which is very tight and controlled. On the other hand, it is

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interesting because we have got relatively better figures. On the

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other hand in the street of London, rubbish is less collected than it

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used to be. In my street is to be three times a week, now it is once a

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week. The local library has closed. So they are sturdy policies have had

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a massive impact, in terms of daily life. `` austerity. The real cuts

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have not begun yet. Absolutely. Of course, I think we should talk about

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the house market, which in the last year has rose by 10%, especially in

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London. The nature of the British economy seems to be based on

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speculation, on properties in London. It is so frightening,

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because London, in the last 15 years I have been in London, it is such a

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vibrant Cosmopolis. In a generation we could be having a discussion so

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far away from London, the BBC could be somewhere in Scotland, because we

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cannot afford to live in London. That may need to be negotiated.

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There is clearly a London or south`east economy and there are

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other economies which are very different. House prices are not

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going up everywhere. If you look at the high streets in eventual areas,

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you will see the recession, people have closed shops. I wanted to go

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back to the question of the longer term future, good news on

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unemployment figures. However, the reports that are coming out now,

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will reveal that poverty is more widespread amongst the working

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people. His family is that have to choose between heating their homes

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and eating, often have working parents was up ``. That is because

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we have seen this appalling squeeze on what people get paid for their

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work and the transfer of wealth for a very tiny elite. If you haul out

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of society in this way, how are people supposed to do the

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consumptions, do the spending that you want to get your economy booming

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again? We do not have the money. The charity who looked at food banks

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this week, say they are figures show three times more people using food

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banks than a year ago. The people involved in those charitable things

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are doing great work. But are we going down the road of the United

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States where food banks become permanent parts of our lives? It

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seems to become the trend. If you look at the next group of cuts,

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they've all in constituencies that are pure. Around London and the

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south`east you have an untouched area. Would you not expect that

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public sector cuts would fall on people who use public services?

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Absolutely. Those are the most honourable people in our society. If

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we are going to do this, we have to accept that we will recreate a

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society that we left behind. `` vulnerable. It is not the poor

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getting poor necessarily. It is the middle class being affected because

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wages are not going up and the cost of living has rocketed at the same

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time. It is not just the poor who are affected, it is in large section

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of the middle`class who are also being hit. The lifestyle you might

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have had ten or 15 years ago, you cannot sustain that now because of

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the cost of living. This is one aspect. The other aspect, the common

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`` economic gap between regions in the country is highlighted in this

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new project which is very widely debated, HS2. The new high`speed

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train that will connect with London in the north of England. This will

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make the northern area, regions, even more for `` poor. So they have

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to be thing, especially now, between us and the next election, they have

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to this right, the politicians. Fundamentally, wages have not kept

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up with the cost of living. You have this problem of low wages and even

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trainee wages, because as a difficult number of people are

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working as trainees rather than as fully employed people. I was in

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Holland couple of weeks ago, the standard of their infrastructure is

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magnificent. I come back to London, I try to `` drive to Oxford, the

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state of the motorway is miserable. Why is that happening? Cannot more

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people be employed in that area? One of the big shocks, is energy prices

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going up. 9%, 8%, depending on who your supplier is. We have the story

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of ministers saying we are British, we only have to put on more layers.

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We cannot afford hearing, so add another jumper. `` heating. In the

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same style of Jeremy Hunt seeing the NHS is not measuring up to caring

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for the old people, why do not we do like the Chinese and every family

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should actually have some shelter and feature owned `` feed your own

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old parents. They are building the biggest old age care homes in the

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world. People have gone to the city 's leaving elderly parents wrap ``

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behind. That family structure has broken down in the last few years.

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The Chancellor of the Exchequer led a delegation to China this week to

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present Britain as the land of opportunity for Chinese businesses.

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Where the Chinese press and how far does the British approach go?

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I think the Chinese have been impressed with the eagerness of the

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Chancellor to sell whatever he could. The Chinese, traditionally,

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have like their visitors to be coming from tributary states. I

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think he fitted in perfectly well. The first encounter, the first

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trading counter between Britain and China broke down over Lord

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McCartney's refusal to koto. We have made up for this will stop ``. Both

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`` we have been trying to sell to the Chinese since the 17th century

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and we have not been doing very well. Germany does very well, there

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are things the Chinese want to buy. Britain seems to be schizophrenic.

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Every now and then a British politician will discover China as if

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it hadn't been there all along. If he had stayed longer he would

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discover there are other foreign businesses doing better than ours.

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Been there longer, tried longer. I have grave reservations over some of

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the dealings that were announced, like the idea that the Chinese would

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take a majority stake in infrastructure projects like a

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nuclear power station. I would think these would be a national debate

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which we have not had. How did the French do in this? Will the ``

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brilliantly? No, not at all. We were trying to sell assets. We are trying

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to interest the Chinese into buying our car companies. When George

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Osborne said Britain and China are both ancient civilisations. Boris

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Johnson and George Osborne, it reminds people of Mr Bean, this

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double act. When you think that China is investing three times more

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in Australia than they do in Britain. France and Britain are very

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small business opportunities for China. Better late than never? Yes,

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we do very well on tourism. The French do. Yes. We found recently

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that Chinese tourists flock to Paris and they spend millions and

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millions. London is losing the battle on the tourism front. So that

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is something that perhaps Osborne could work on. That is something

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that Chinese people have been complaining about for ages. Because

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it is so difficult to get to London. Chinese students, you have a double

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language here. Bank regulation will help with China. On the other hand,

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Nigel Farage and all the talk about making Britain less immigrant

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friendly is not giving out the right message. I was the new land of

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investment opportunity for Britain. Has that been eclipsed? I was going

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to come to that. I sense a change of tack on part of the British

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government. When this government came into office, in 2010, India was

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the flavour of the season. Within ten weeks of Cameron becoming prime

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minister, he went to India with a flag which said, we want a special

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relationship with India. What has happened is this, in terms of trade

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going on between the two countries, it has gone up and they will achieve

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the target of doubling trade within the five`year period of this

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government. But where I think Britain is a little does appointed

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as in the area of exports, particularly exports of military

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hardware. That is a result of political differences between the

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two countries. The second area, where I think there is an element of

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this is, there was an expectation that there would be a major second

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tranche of Indian investments in Britain, which was very successful.

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But something even bigger, better, more companies coming into Britain

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and investing in this country. This hasn't happened as a result of the

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slowdown in the economy. Therefore I see this change of tactics. China is

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the flavour of the season. The goal was a flavour of the season for a

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while. China now is the only country which has cash. They have no

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problem, they have no debts. No matter how reluctant the western and

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British politicians are in dealing with China, eventually they will go

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there, they will open their door for that money, at the end, no matter

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how reluctant they are. You might be of the 1930s bank robber, who was

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once asked why he robbed banks. He replied, because that is where the

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money is. It is true. The Chinese have had an outward investment

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policy for years. This country is the only one to have allowed Chinese

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investment. The Chinese would never allow that, the Americans would

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never allow it. It is not a good commercial deal, so why are the

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Chinese interested? The Chinese invest where there is technology

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they wish to acquire, so they can compete in the markets and probably

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destroyed their original partner. This in the easy as is a little over

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eight. One of the Al`Shabab killers

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involved in the attack on a Nairobi shopping mall was identified as a

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Somali`born Norwegian national. Why is it that some people who grow up

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amid all the freedoms of a tolerant Western culture end up loathing that

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culture so much? It is a question we asked here and it is asked in France

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as well. Do you have any ideas why these people are dislocated from

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both their original background and this one? Use needs absolute. I

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think today, Western democracy does not give absolutes to young people.

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I was brought up in France and was probably the last generation to

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begin and that absolute. It was the French republic's ideals. But in the

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West, Britain has relative of the problem is a twisted concept of

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Islam or Christianity. Competing religions such as Christianity and

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Islam, that does provide the search for the absolute. I think perhaps we

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should learn from that and make democracy, stand up to our values

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and transform democracy. It is a fight. If you look at the

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recruitment in extreme religious cult is, it shoots up at the age of

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late teens, early adult hood. Five or six years later, they tend to

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leave. We have had home`grown terrorism here. So did we. If you

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take adolescent alienation and the search for something that appears to

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give you all the answers, it is explicable by these people are

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attracted to the terrorist organisations. They carry foreign

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passports and a British or region passport as a much better bet if you

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are going to Kenya, for example. By the time these jazzmen go to

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Somalia, they are in the hands of the organisation, they are in.

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Treated. They are as vulnerable target group.

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This week we have had moderate British Muslims who have condemned

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attacks, being told in a Al`Shabab video that they could be targets

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too, for preaching that Islam is a moderate religion, a religion of

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peace. One imam told me that these people are lunatics and he has

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received a death threat. There is no doubt that they are lunatics. The

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thing about this, as you pointed out about the home`grown terrorists. If

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you go back to the 1970s and 1980s, there were very exciting

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organisations. They attract the use, the young people. They come to

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the Middle East and get training. They all did that. The thing is, you

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have to try and deal with this, but as well, you have to deal with the

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problems over the world. The extreme injustice that is going on in Africa

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or in the Arab world. There are cases all over the world. We have to

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find a solution. You can't go on now. If you take the Middle East,

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since 1948 until now, people are exhausted, they are tired. You are

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pushing people to the edges of extremism. So they will use these as

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excuses and carry on such atrocious operations, like the one we saw a

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couple of weeks ago. I think first of all, while Western policy in

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general and European policy included in this, has been generous in terms

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of immigration, there has been no policy or thinking until quite late

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of immigration. Multiculturalism as a concession granted by indigenous

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communities to immigrant communities has failed. The reason is simple.

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Unless you encourage an immigrant community to integrate with the

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indigenous society, there there will be a separatism. And that separatism

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is what we are witnessing in Europe, in Britain, in Norway. This

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is a classic case, because, isolated as they are, not growing up in the

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education as they should be, and they get angry after a while. In

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this case, this young man who was of Somali origin, or Norwegian National

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Mao, 23 years old, he has been an angry young man for some time. He

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has displayed anger at Norway, he has been leaning on extremism for a

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while. He has got into trouble several times, his father has been

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worried about what he has been doing. This is the kind of example

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which is they're all over. I think Europe, including Britain, is

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sitting on a powderkeg. If you are describing the French model versus

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the multi`cultural model in Britain. And like to hear more

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about, do you think we should have stricter rules? That you have to

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speak the language and accept certain cultural norms. That might

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mean something about dress and not wearing thinner cap. Even freedom of

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speech has limits and you cannot incite hatred or murder. I could see

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an imam inciting hatred and nobody was raising an eyebrow. It is

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British tolerance, but that tolerance would not be tolerated in

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France. In the last 30 years, France has been looking towards Britain,

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instead of making the case for what it had been very good at, that is to

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say, a common destiny. If multiculturalism in riches further a

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culture, then that's fine. One example, when the East African

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Indians came here and started opening their shops until late, it

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revolutionised this country, in terms of its shopping habits. Today,

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all major outlets stay open to late. It has been a boon to the British

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economy. That is in Richmond, that is welcome, but separatism is not.

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We have to be very careful here, we're talking about individual

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cases. These are a tiny minority, but the majority of immigrants

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coming to the West are living very happily.

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That's it for Dateline London for this week. We're back next week at

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the same time. And you can of course comment on the programme on Twitter.

:25:35.:25:35.

Goodbye. Plenty of whether this weekend, but

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it would be a wash`out, because the sun will make an appearance, and

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when it does, temperatures will be quite warm for the time of

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