Browse content similar to 26/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Dateline. America's spy agency bugging its | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
friends and allies. What the possible closure of a huge | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
petrochemical works tells us about the global economy, and what to do | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
about petrol prices. Well, the files released by the | :00:41. | :00:54. | |
former US spy agency contractor Edward Snowden produces new | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
embarrassments week by week. This week it was news that the US have | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
been bugging Angela Merkel, something not explicitly denied by | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
the White House, and they have been bugging other foreign leaders as | :01:09. | :01:16. | |
well. Should we be surprised? That is what they are paid to do, but are | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
they paid to spy on Angela Merkel? I sometimes look at Spies, the bidding | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
of fruit is there but you must clear of it. `` the four bed and fruit. It | :01:29. | :01:37. | |
requires political guidance to tell these people, stay clear of someone | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
like Angela Merkel. What is there to learn in the fight against terrorism | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
by bugging Angela Merkel's phone? You wonder what else is there to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
learn. Here we are in the real kind of New World. This is espionage. We | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
are friends, in political terms, and allies in security matters. But we | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
are competitors in the area of industrial relations. We want to | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
find out whether we can learn something in the area of economic | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
advantage. It is definitely damaging to relations and we have to be | :02:21. | :02:29. | |
careful not to let this summer. The notion the Brussels summit has come | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
up with a bilateral delegation from France and Germany to talk to | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
Americans to find a regime is ridiculous. Once you have a | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
signature on such a deal, the Spies will be on to each other's telephone | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
to see if they are at hearing to it or not. Just to be clear, she is | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
really annoyed about this. She has to be annoyed, publicly. This is a | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
political issue of the worst kind. She did not seem to care too much in | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
the summer when it was first involved there was some going on. | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
Now she is involved, she has to really climb the highest ladder of | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
annoyance. But are a lot of crocodile tears are being shared | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
here. From the French most of all. The French are leaders in industrial | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
espionage. And have been for years. Francois Hollande said, we have to | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
protect our industrial area from foreign intervention. But they are | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
doing it themselves. Maybe German capabilities are not quite up to the | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
modern standard. Thank goodness the British do not get involved. Thomas | :03:45. | :03:58. | |
makes the central point, a lot of this is about economics buying, | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
isn't it? People think it is all about terrorism, but actually | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
questions about trade between the United States and the European | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Union, what Angela Merkel is doing about the economy, those things are | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
of great interest to other countries. The French will steal | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
actual industrial secrets and give it to their national champions. | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
Trying to understand what another delegation is doing in trade talks, | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
that is state to state stuff. I think it is true that everyone has | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
been spying on everyone else for as long as they can get away with it. I | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
think perhaps the German sensitivity on the subject given the second | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
World War is different to the attitude in America. In America | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
security forces are not looked at as such evil things. It is, | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
fundamentally, one more thing that makes Europeans think the Americans | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
are not like them and that is a dangerous thing in the long one. I | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
do not think President Obama will be winning a Nobel Peace Prize any time | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
since. When you add this to discussions about whether drones are | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
illegal, the issue with Syria, the Americans cannot get their budget | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
passed in any intelligent fashion, this is the kind of long`term change | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
you have to worry about. President Obama is pivoting to Asia, but he | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
has to worry about whether the fundamental understanding between | :05:35. | :05:35. | |
Americans and the Europeans that they are on the same team is | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
protected. Germans are wondering particularly whether these spying | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
services mean that Germany has fallen down a peg or two on the | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
ladder. It is not just the Germans. The French are doing it. Everybody | :05:56. | :06:08. | |
is doing it. This is what Spies do. The Americans have greater | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
capabilities. We no longer differentiate well between enemies | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
and friends. Friends have always spied on one another. It is just the | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
fact it has come out. Exactly. The EU line was that this is a breach of | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
trust, and trust is important in our relationship if we are going to | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
cooperate in terrorism and other things. It is a very fair point. It | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
is good that this is not a terrorism story. People say, everything is | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
acceptable in the fight against terror. This has nothing to do with | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
terror, but it is economic and industrial. It is important not to | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
forget about Brazil, and what happened with the Brazilian | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
president. She made her entire General Assembly speech about this | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
and called it a breach of international law. It was | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
interesting because there were quite a few Europeans who thought, yes of | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
course she is upset, but they did not give it much thought until it | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
hit home. The fact the Brazilian president cancel the only state | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
dinner that President Obama had set up this year because of this | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
fallout. This is about where America stands in the world and is it | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
getting too big for its own good in terms of surveillance. Or too | :07:34. | :07:46. | |
paranoid. On the other hand, we do not hear about the successes. Let's | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
say this is hoovering up on a large scale, at the hoovering of cold data | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
has actually led to picking out terrorists. `` cold data. There is a | :07:57. | :08:04. | |
lot more cooperation underneath this. There is a lot going on that | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
the Americans can do that is useful, but we will never really | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
understand it in the public realm because they cannot talk about it. | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
Picking up on that, it is interesting how grown`up everyone | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
has been about this after the public outrage. One of the thing that was | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
feared was that these trade talks between the United States and Europe | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
would be affected. It was not. The notion intelligence cooperation on | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
things like terror would be affected, that is not happening. In | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
a way, it is kind of a performance where people have to be indignant. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
The Americans have to be contrite, for political reasons. The elephant | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
in the room is not so much whether governments are spying on one | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
another, it is this technological change, on such a huge scale and it | :09:04. | :09:15. | |
is not just governments. Any numerous teenager anywhere in the | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
world could probably hack into Angela Merkel's mobile phone. Edward | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
Snowden can get this all into the public sector. Spying is not buying | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
any more. I was going to make a point, which is there is a great | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
deal of outrage about the thought that people all over the world may | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
have their information hoovered up. When it's comes to governments, is | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
it a bad thing to know what government is really up to? Does it | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
not make the world potentially safer to have spying going on and finding | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
out what they really think? It does, and there are historical examples. | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
The peace agreement between Egypt. The end of the Cold War, a lot of | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
that was accelerated by enemies getting better intelligence and in | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
the Soviet's case, they found the Americans did not have plans to | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
launch offensive strikes against the Soviet Union. There were new | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
assessments of the military disposition in Egypt that allow the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Israelis to reciprocate. In that sense, you're absolutely right. | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
Greater transparency is are a good thing for a nation state. But it | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
begs the question whether you need embassies any more. It cannot be | :10:42. | :10:52. | |
just old data, it is acceptable to be monitoring because you have to | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
know what information is useful in the fight against terror or any | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
other national interest. I think it is important to make sure you have | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
all that intelligence gathering, as it has always happened. Angela | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Merkel, or 70 million citizens of one country or another are being | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
monitored. What is the protection side? They are not yet monitored, | :11:17. | :11:26. | |
they are hoovered. But they have the capability. The world waits to hear | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
the transcript of Silvio Berlusconi's phone calls! The | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
company which owns the giant petrochemical works and oil refinery | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
in Grangemouth moved its base to Switzerland in 2010 where taxes are | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
lower. This week they threatened to close half of the plant. Governments | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
are often helpless to set industrial policy and collect taxes in how they | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
used to. The plant has been saved and people are pleased that jobs | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
appear to be safe. Maybe for a generation. Is this a sign of where | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
we are in this recession that in order to keep your job you have to | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
keep `` you have to take a pay cut. A lot of people know this has been | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
the story of their lives for a couple of years. Is this a news | :12:20. | :12:31. | |
story? The acceleration of manufacturing to more low`cost | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
locations, this is not a new story. The factors in this case where that | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
unions seem to overreach and there was a particularly tough boss. He | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
figured out the mechanics of this and how to put pressure at the right | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
time. That kind of hardball negotiation between employers and | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
unions has a long, traditional history in this country. I think the | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
next step is not just industrial jobs are easy to migrate, but | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
service jobs. You can have call centres in India doing the work, you | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
can have legal research being done in the Philippines. Legal | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
secretaries are now doing it in other low`cost locations. And all | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
other kinds of jobs like salespeople, lots of the jobs people | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
have had an industrial countries are much easier and cheaper to do on the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
end of a fibre`optic pipe. I do not think we are going to be able to | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
have the governments figure out a way of stopping the flow of jobs to | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
cheaper places, that is just what current global capitalism, and | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
capitalism as we can see it is going to be. What government can do is | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
make their country attractive and work against having tax havens. They | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
can coordinate tax policies so it is not so easy to go to Switzerland. | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
And the money can come in for long`term investment to things which | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
make your country were living in. I do not know what else governments | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
can do to stop people going further ashore. Written's GDP seems to have | :14:11. | :14:19. | |
gone up quite healthily. At the same time, a lot of people say, and the | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
Labour Party certainly says, people are still hurting because wages have | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
not gone up. Ed Miliband is `` is onto something. This notion of the | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
squeezed middle and the fact that living standards are not keeping | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
pace with inflation, low though it is, is obviously of political | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
concern to the government. They are looking for a way to respond. What | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
is fascinating about this, and Grangemouth is part of the story, is | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
there are going to be two competing narratives at the next election, it | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
would appear. The Labour narrative is the old Ronald Reagan to Jimmy | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
Carter debate, are you better off than you were four years ago? And | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
the government line is Bill Clinton, it is the economy. Would you trust | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
these guys to take it over. It will be fascinating to see who wins out. | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
The interesting thing about Grangemouth is, on one hand | :15:29. | :15:36. | |
Scotland, if you were the First Minister of Scotland you could take | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
credit for having a big part in saving this facility. And good on | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
him. If you are an ordinary Scottish voter, for instance with | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
independents coming up for a referendum vote, do you not feel a | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
little bit more vulnerable to the forces of the international economy? | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
And also RBS and the bank of Scotland were bailed out by | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
taxpayers money. Can I come back to your original question about whether | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
it is fine to safeguard jobs. That is not the whole story. Jobs have | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
been saved on conditions of pegging your earnings. Your earnings have | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
been pegged. The Labour argument about the cost of living outpacing | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
any advantages you may gain from safeguarding your jobs. But it is | :16:34. | :16:42. | |
better to be employed. Other jobs are being saved along the same lines | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
and the dignity of life spent under such conditions is being slowly but | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
surely impaired. That has not been answered yet. The issue of employees | :16:52. | :17:00. | |
feeling vulnerable and employers feel they can negotiate much tougher | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
deals, unions have been weakened and that will also | :17:05. | :17:05. | |
deals, unions have been weakened and that will play out in the next | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
election. And the relationship with Labour, also, especially for Unite. | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
As long as unemployment is still high, and as long as people feel | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
there are not that many jobs to go around, partly because it's easy to | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
relocate somewhere else with cheaper wages and so forth, we will have | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
this problem. It comes in different forms but, we have to do is think | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
about how much can you do job protection in a globalised economy? | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
To be fair, you can't. So you're going to do think about how to | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
create new jobs and the of smaller businesses. It's the reality, that's | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
what's going to do the main employment because the big global | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
corporate will go where they can make more money. The allied question | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
is skittles because the kinds of jobs there will be require an | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
education system that turns out young people, retrain people, who | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
are in businesses that have gone south or abroad, to be competitive. | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
That's a huge investment, complex. And long term. A recent survey in | :18:21. | :18:28. | |
England suggested actually 22nd in literacy and numeracy in 26 | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
countries, which is not great. Except the people doing it couldn't | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
add up. OK, let's move on. Everyone knows energy is increasingly | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
expensive and the politics of energy are increasingly difficult. This | :18:39. | :18:40. | |
week, the former British Prime Minister John Major suggested the | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
government could introduce a windfall profit tax on energy | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
companies. Is that the best way to deal with the problem? What do you | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
think? There is clearly a problem and everybody recognises that, but | :18:54. | :18:55. | |
there is now a lot of different solutions. It's been very | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
interesting hearing from different conservatives how they would deal | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
with the problem. Of course, we had David Cameron saying if British Gas | :19:07. | :19:08. | |
is raising prices, you should just go and change to another competitor, | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
which is capitalism. You have to do try to go for what the consumers | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
actually would want but, in reality, everybody is raising | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
questions so it's not a solution. Then John Major interestingly saying | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
there should be a windfall tax and I agree with that. I think there is a | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
benchmark, if companies are making more than was expected, there should | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
be an extra tax, but it comes back to, in this current economic system, | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
that's not really favoured because the people who actually have it | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
within their remit to make that decision are often benefiting from | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
the actual system. But also, another interesting energy story has been | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
the fact the UK will build a new nuclear power plant with the Chinese | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
investments. Again, we see the politics of it, not only the | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
economic scum of energy, which is impacting the UK in different ways | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
as we see, of course, less reliance on domestic resources. There is the | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
Ed Miliband idea you can cap energy prices, which some people have | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
ridiculed because there is a world market. Others have said it might | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
work. The Scottish Government is thinking of doing, if they win the | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
independence referendum, pay for green levies out of general | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
taxation. Slightly more compensated than that but that's basically it. | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
They are scrabbling around to try to hit an outrageous system where we | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
have to pay a lot of money. And also the fact the increases are so much | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
higher than inflation so when you are looking at 10% increases, for | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
your energy bill, at a time when wages are not going up at all, let | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
alone by 5%, so there's definitely a problem. Nobody has found a solution | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
and that's why there's so many different ideas being thrown around. | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
As we get closer to the election, some will try to make a very | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
compelling promises, for example, capping prices. It can't be done | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
because the regulator for energy prices impose that, so what role can | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
government play? What are the politics of this? Ed Miliband also | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
says what is needed is restructuring the energy market. Pretty much | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
everybody agrees with that. Politics is fascinating that Ed Miliband hit | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
on a winner with identifying the issue. Even most of his own party | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
recognised this price freeze is not workable, and some people would | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
argue one of the reasons we got this precipitous increase in price by the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
big six, at this stage, is in anticipation of a freeze. That may | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
be true, but people might blame the current government even though it | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
was caused... But in terms of the politics, I agree with you. Labour | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
is on to something. The issue, what I find politically fascinating about | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
this, is the one thing that might be a game changer, and what is needed | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
is a long`term market solution. None of these things, not even John | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
Major, although if the most workable, the windfall tax, deals | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
with the fact that you need are ready and affordable and stable | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
supply of energy. If you gave that check list of someone in the USA | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
now, they would say fracking. They would say shale gas which has | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
transformed the American market. But there is this English tradition of | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
things like fracking is fine as long as it is not in my backyard. I've | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
see another political problem here, a potential wedge in the coalition | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
because the Conservatives are thinking about when it comes to | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
reducing prices, perhaps to withdraw the green levies or some of it. They | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
are certainly reviewing it. There is a potential conflict here as we come | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
to the next election. It could be sleight of hand, they could put on | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
general taxation. Like the Scottish, pay for differently. Also there are | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
new consumer nations like Japan who are now also moving off atomic | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
energy altogether. The energy companies are arguing for the | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
increasing their prices. What is happening in Germany now because | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
Angela Merkel has abandoned a new programme? It's uncertain. It's an | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
enigma wrapped in a mystery how we will confront the energy supply for | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
the future and at what price? By the way, the price is a question in | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
England, to force we don't know whether the Chinese will actually | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
help reduce the price. We are trying to find a way to make energy | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
affordable but haven't found the answer yet. We are in uncharted | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
territory. Normally we have figured out 2000 steps in the future. That | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
is one Angela Merkel's impetuous decisions. I imagine that's what was | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
behind it. It was so out of character. The Americans. Where is | :24:25. | :24:32. | |
the USA on this? Fracking is seen as what? The holy Grail? No more | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
independence on imported oil? The environmental concerns, although | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
there are some, seem to have been muted. The wholesale price of gas is | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
coming down. It's competing, the price of coal and oil has come down. | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Manufacturing can I be done more cheaply than before. It's a good | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
thing for the USA. It doesn't cost global warming. You have all the | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
space in the world to do these things. We all breathe the same air, | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
as Jack Kennedy says. It reminds the British rail, the energy situation | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
here, you don't know who was responsible for what. A big | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
investment is needed for energy systems. I have changed my supplier | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
that I have no idea who these people are? What relation it has world | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
prices. I can't figure out 95 options of tariffs. You need a Ph.D. | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
. It's mind numbingly dull. Who is Ofgem, the regulators? In some | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
American states the public voting for regulators to have some sense | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
somebody is minding the store. Here, various companies, who are these | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
people? More political control and transparency is needed. Perhaps we | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
should bugs and find out what they are doing. That's it from Dateline | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
London for this week. We're back next week at the same time. You can | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
comment on the programme on Twitter. Goodbye. | :26:06. | :26:32. | |
Hello there. This could be a good weekend for enjoying the autumn | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
colours before more leaves are stepped from the trees. Wild weather | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
in Monday. A weather warning in place of central and southern | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
England and Wales. 80 mph wind possible on Monday which will cause | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
potential travel and power disruption as well. Low`pressure | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
blossoming to live this morning after East Coast. Watch on Sunday | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
how it deepens. The isobars tighten. On the southern flank we will see | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
some damaging gusts, so the | :27:07. | :27:08. |