Browse content similar to 02/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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There's a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC News | :00:00. | 3:59:59 | |
Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline ` | :00:00. | :00:27. | |
America's Secretary of State says the US may have gone too far on | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
spying. Syria hands over its chemical weapons facilities ` but | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
where is Iran now on its nuclear programme? And Britain's energy | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
companies on trial ` but is David Cameron turning less Green? My | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
guests are Vincent Magombe of Africa Inform International, Nazenin Ansari | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
of Iran's Kayhan, Catherine Mayer of Time Magazine and Alex Deane of | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
Conservative Home. US Secretary of State John Kerry suggested that | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
America may have gone too far on some of the spying activities made | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
public by the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. Meanwhile the | :01:01. | :01:11. | |
journalist at the heart of the affair, Glenn Greenwald, says he has | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
many more revelations to come. Has lasting damage been done to | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
America's spying capabilities ` and the reputation of the Obama | :01:17. | :01:40. | |
administration? It is being taken seriously, but not for the reasons | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
you might think. It is a lot more to do with the way this is being | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
managed than the fact that the spying took place. All the evidence | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
suggests that people do accept an amazing level of intrusion of | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
producing these days if they think it protects them. What they don't | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
accept is an incompetent government that is not looking after them. It | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
seems to go all the way up to the top, although the denial may be | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
beyond possible, it may be true. The worst of it is, it does look as if | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
it's true. John Kerry is taking on an interesting role in this | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
government. You saw a little remark he made in the London press | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
conference, entirely shifting the ground on Syria. You are now | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
seeing, because we do not know how well the government is planning | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
things, you wonder if the government is exercising banana skin diplomacy | :02:57. | :03:05. | |
or splat are. What he is now saying may again create all sorts of | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
unintended consequences that may be helpful, which is one of the funny | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
things that has happened before. They have an off a lot of work to do | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
to win over the governments who are upset by what they have been doing. | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Because Angela Merkel does not see the funny side, among others. Some | :03:29. | :03:38. | |
of the responses in Burlington, they are absolutely spitting tacks. They | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
are spitting tacks because America is still presuming to tell them how | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
to run their economy and telling them off or to driven. They are | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
saying, you have had the government shutdown for weeks and we have had | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
to deal with the consequences. It now turns out that Angela Merkel, | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
who sends a lot of texts, has been having everyone of them looked at. I | :04:11. | :04:21. | |
must start by saying I am completely shocked that European governments | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
are finding this quite shocking. They say they are finding it | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
shocking. Whether they be find it shocking is another masterful Op I | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
say that because you know where I come from, Africa. We knew about | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
American spying and that the raw end of the consequences for a long time. | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
When Americans spied on Germany or France, they're not going to kill | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
the President in that country as a consequence. In Africa, when you | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
look at people who are supposed to be great leaders, they have been | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
killed is through American spies in the early 60s. All these types of | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
things. In later years, someone like Edie in was brought to power with | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
the help of British spy agencies. So as an African, I am not at all | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
surprised, but I am shocked but others find it shocking. Of course, | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
there has never been any spying into or out of Iran. It is like eating at | :05:29. | :05:39. | |
the bar on the international scene. Everybody loves it, likes the | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
taste, but nobody wants to admit when it comes from. There has been | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
recently this understanding between Europe, the United States, | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
Australia, New Zealand and Canada will top they are all sharing this | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
information and intelligence. What is interesting from this discussion | :05:59. | :06:09. | |
is that number one, the American president has very low popularity | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
ratings and it is not because of the spying, it is because of the health | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
care reform and because there hasn't been any good new news story. | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Everything he has pointed his finger on has been a disaster. Look at | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
Egypt, Syria. But I think there is a silver lining in all of this, and | :06:27. | :06:36. | |
that is Glenn Greenwald. He has been able to get $50 million to start his | :06:37. | :06:53. | |
own media website. So journalism is OK, but the rest of the world isn't. | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
Independent journalism. So there is money for that. The Washington Post | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
is now diverted his attention. David Cameron has been largely as silent | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
as a Prime Minister can be. You don't want to criticise your | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
most important ally. You want to find out if you would information | :07:21. | :07:32. | |
has been accessed. As far as Germans are concerned, they take their | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
privacy very seriously, for good historical reasons. Especially | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
Angela Merkel, who grew up in the East. I welcome John Kerry's | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
remarks, opening the door to discuss this. But the Americans went far too | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
far. Let's be clear. The people thing to themselves, they are doing | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
this to my head is state, what protection do we have for our own | :08:01. | :08:11. | |
information? The Americans are spying on supposed allies. I don't | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
think I would mind someone spying on my head is date, depending on which | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
Edwards date. If you turn this look at the people who talk this, Edward | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
Snowden and others, they had great luck in trying to spy on the | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
government systems. I wish tomorrow they can do that African | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
governments. The corruption they will find, how they kill people. And | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
the Iranians government, you would agree with that? Basically, I want | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
to spy on their negotiations to see what is going on. No one knows what | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
is going on full top my point was not about whether this is OK to pry | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
on governments, my point is about governments spying on other nations | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
and using that moral high ground which Americans need. | :09:04. | :09:11. | |
If you look at what is coming out, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, even | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
the United States, have been using their embassies. I we not being a | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
bit naive? It has always gone on, but the technology has changed. It | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
is absolutely true that one of the reasons people are not nearly as | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
outraged about this as the campaigners on this issue would like | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
them to be is because everybody has assumed that that is what is going | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
on and a lot of people really don't mind about it. A lot of people would | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
say that is why they pay their taxes. To bring it back to the | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
government stumbles in the United States, that is why people are | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
linking it to the health care reforms. They are saying, you have | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
these resources and you are unable to spy on people across the world | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
and you cannot run a website? Let's move on. Syria ` according to | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
the outside experts ` has complied with demands that it hand over its | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
means to produce chemical weapons this week ` though destroying the | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
weapons themselves will take many months. It comes as talks on Iran's | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
nuclear programme continue. So how far is the most dangerous region on | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
earth becoming possibly a little less dangerous? The moves in Syria | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
have been broadly welcomed. Yes, but if you think it is becoming more | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
stable or less dangerous, that is aspirational. What is happening in | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
Iran at the moment, as far as the nuclear negotiations are concerned, | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
they will restart on the 7th of November. A day after the | :10:49. | :10:57. | |
anniversary of the siege of the US embassy. It will be interesting to | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
see what will be the reaction on the streets of Iran full top only | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
yesterday, all the Friday prayer leaders around the country started | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
criticising not only the United States, but also criticising the | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
talks. So Friday prayer leaders doing that all across the country | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
means one thing, that they are getting their notes from the supreme | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
leader 's office. Why this change of heart? Why, when we thought we would | :11:30. | :11:39. | |
get three to six months. I think it is the insecurity Iranians feel | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
inside. Only last week, there was an attack by rebels from the Pakistan | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
area, killing Iranians ordered guards. Two Kurdish people have been | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
executed in Iran. The state of siege within the security services in Iran | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
has increased. Whether that will affect the nuclear negotiations are | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
not, that remains to be seen. But it is a general rule that countries | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
where the government feels under threat or week for some reason, | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
either economic league, tends not to be in a position to make deals. This | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
will be a big week, seen from the Iranians position, it is a big leap | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
to take will stop of course. Seen from the Syrians, things look | :12:26. | :12:33. | |
different now. I think your question to us was, has it become less | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
dangerous? I think it has become less or vertically or press as a | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
regime. I don't welcome this regime for one moment, but the dangers | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
posed either rebels have grown significantly. This has gone from | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
being an internally signed conflict within Syria to one that draws | :12:54. | :13:07. | |
elements from outside. We're told over 70 journalists are missing in | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
Syria. Two years ago, it was the regime you had to feel if you would | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
report. That is not just the case any more. The rebels are capturing | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
reporters and holding them hostage or worse. The danger from the | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
oppressive regime has lessened, but the danger in the region has not. | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
You could see giving up the chemical weapons may be a way of securing | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
your future. Great move from President Assad. He | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
has nothing to lose in terms of the Pirate he has. He has enough | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
conventional weaponry to dominate the scene. He doesn't need the | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
chemical weapons. He also has the opportunity to shame Western powers | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
and individuals. There is a reason we had a pretty good sense of what | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
was there in Syria, because we have the sales receipts. | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
You didn't need to bug telephones, you had the receipts. I am a | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
campaigner for democracy in my country. The big Bob is when all | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
these international by mentions come into Lake, like we're seeing in | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
Syria. We forget the bigger story, which is the relationship between | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
Syria and the dictator. Everyone is praising him, because he has made a | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
great move. He may have made a great move in terms of chemical weapons, | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
but his oppression of the Syrian people is not going to end. My worry | :14:46. | :14:55. | |
is that whenever we have all these international players coming in in | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
our liberation struggles, things get muddled up. Now we have to judge the | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
dictator in the eyes of America and the world and what they say about | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
the chemical and is. People have been struggling in Syria to try to | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
liberate and have democracy. I also want to mention one thing which is | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
very, very troubling for us in Africa, these double standards of | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
Western countries or international organisations and so on. Here you | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
are, you want to blast Syria out of that, or Gaddafi, because of the oil | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
and so on. I am here, I come from Uganda, I have to mention my | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
dictator, Idi Amin. Not Idi Amin, I'm sorry. I say him because we have | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
suffered a lot to dictators in Uganda, but other current dictator | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
is the greatest friend of America because he is fighting in Somalia | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
for them. He is a big man. This type of double standards is undermining | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
the capacity of us simple people to fight for our freedoms. I think the | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Syrian people will very soon discover they can't do anything once | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
the man has satisfied the West in terms of chemical and and so on. The | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
whole story of democratic campaigning will have to stop. I | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
think there is a series of excellent points. Look what is happening in | :16:23. | :16:31. | |
Iraq. Iraq is, I'm afraid, absolutely falling back into total | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
chaos again. A lot of what you just said, everything about Iraq was gone | :16:37. | :16:44. | |
about, as we now know, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong way, without | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
an eye to how it would play out. Nobody knows how it will play out. | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
Although I think a lot of people had honourable reasons for doing what | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
they did, those honourable reasons have come back to bite them. There | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
was always a lot of cynicism and double standards, and that has | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
continued to have repercussions throughout the world when we are | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
talking about any kind of intervention. It is one of the | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
reasons people stood back from Syria and let it get so bad that it came | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
to a point where intervention was not really going to work anyway. So | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
bad that polio outbreaks in 2013, a disease that we thought we had got | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
pretty much under control as a world, people being killed by | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
conventional weapons, people finding living conditions appalling. | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
Sometimes in the rich world we forget that. And another piece of | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
news not exactly in that region, that you have had the drone strike | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
that took out the Taliban head just at the point where negotiations were | :17:47. | :17:56. | |
at a critical stage. In Pakistan. Sorry, in Waziristan. If you think | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
that these strollers strikes are necessarily the way to conduct these | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
operations and diplomacy, you need to look at how that looks on the | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
ground. You have the collateral damage and, secondly, a kind of | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
warfare that appears not to involve any danger to the people inflicting | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
those strikes. Again, there is the assumption of we know what is | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
right, we can act as God and do this. I am not saying it is always | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
wrong, clearly there are arguments for it, but you have to understand | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
the way it looks in the countries it is happening in. At home, David | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Cameron rebranded the Conservative Party by giving it a green tree logo | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
and talking enthusiastically on green issues, but with written 's | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
energy companies effectively on trial, are there signs that economic | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
realities are making the Cameron government less green? He has talked | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
about green levies on electricity bills, this is the hottest political | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
issue, domestic league, at the moment. Is he becoming less green? I | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
think the leadership as a whole is becoming less focused on | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
environmental issues, that is unquestionable. I think that is down | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
to the economic situation dominating the debate, people are looking much | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
more at how numbers work than before. Secondly, the voice of | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
scepticism is becoming very important within my party and the | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
donor base, so there are many people in and around the leadership who | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
have always been sceptical about the environmental movement, particularly | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
about the claims made about the capacity for sustainable energy to | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
provide energy in the short term and also the harm caused by global | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
warming. Some voices have been successfully mounting a campaign | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
saying we should not be to how shirt about this and we have to | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
concentrate more on the cost of living. But Labour's position has | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
also driven it, Labour saying they will cap energy prices. We have just | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
had energy prices leaping up by an average of ten per cent. Those | :20:04. | :20:05. | |
things are not and connect. If you think there is the possibility of a | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
Labour government, it is a very strong possibility, the logical | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
thing to do is put your price up before it happens. In war, political | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
terms, you could say that whatever you think about whether or not you | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
can cap prices, that is a win for Miliband because he can say, look at | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
the evil Conservative Government letting prices go up? Even if you | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
buy the case that people don't think about businesses within economic | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
terms. If this is need to make a profit to invest, generate more | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
jobs, the entrepreneurial and keep this is going. We need to keep the | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
lights on. That argument is becoming stronger in the Conservative Party, | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
that we should be on the side of those trying to keep the lights on. | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
Do you think the Tory party effort was actually green, was this a real | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
thing? I am really curious. In the very early days of Cameron he was on | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
his bicycle with a limo following, that became a kind of symbol for it | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
being green washing as opposed to deeply felt. I think that is a fair | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
question, but there is a significant and genuine commitment to the | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
environment. There is a strong narrative around concerning things, | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
I like my garden and the countryside, in conservatism. Right | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
up until March when energy prices were spiking, people were struggling | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
to keep the gas on. I wonder if there is a wider point, which is | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
that environmentalism has been something which you think about in | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
good times, and you can afford to think about it, and that is about, | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
can I keep the gas on and heat my home? As an immigrant in Britain, I | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
see a lot of these things, these trees symbols etc, as great symbols. | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
I agree with you, somebody has to do the hard economic of what these | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
companies are doing, but as an immigrant, somebody staying in | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
Britain as an immigrant, I think that, really, we have to accept that | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
the Conservative Party is the party of rich men... OK, let me put it | :22:34. | :22:43. | |
this way, the party of business. You are trying to guard that role that | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
they can put up prices because they need to provide electricity and so | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
on, but just go down to immigrant communities in this country, and not | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
just immigrant communities, because you can say, you come from outside, | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
that is your problem. Not you, that there is a general feeling in this | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
country! If you go to most poor people in this country, they are | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
struggling, even the middle classes, they can't pay the bills. Why is | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
this company telling me... ? The Government position was not that | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
week think prices should continue to go up, it is that we don't think we | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
should cap energy prices so we should look at removing green taxes | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
from what is driving up prices. That is just semantics. Prices can come | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
down if you lose some of the tax on top of energy provision. If the | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
government starts cutting tax on energy providers, the clamour for | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
the price to come down on your gas Bill will be... In Scotland, the SNP | :23:46. | :23:55. | |
says that if they win the referendum next year, they will fund green | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
levies differently. It won't come out of your electricity or gas | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
bills, it will be general taxation. We will still be green but pay for | :24:05. | :24:13. | |
it more progressively? Certainly, Cameron, Hague, everybody, they | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
voted for the climate change act of Mr Miliband. As far as the question | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
of whether they are green or not. Whether anybody is green or not, I | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
think most people nowadays, you talk to them and they care about green | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
issues, about recycling, but how to pay for it is another question. | :24:34. | :24:42. | |
Where, I think, Mr Cameron might also... He suggested, let's create | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
more competition with the energy companies. There would be more | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
energy companies. I would be more reserved, keep my reservations about | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
creating more companies and more competitions. At the end of the day, | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
every time there has been more privatisation we have ended up | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
paying more. We have about 30 seconds, there is political | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
consensus that the energy market in Britain is broken. I don't know if | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
it is broken, we need to expand and liberalise more. I would not say we | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
are party for business, we are party for markets. We produce enough hot | :25:21. | :25:29. | |
air in Parliament... We have to get fracking now. We have to be energy | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
independent. Fracking, we should do a proper discussion on fracking, but | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
we have run out of time. We will be back next week at the same time with | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
plenty of hot air. You can comment on twitter at @gavinesler, | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
#BBCDateline. Goodbye. A big night for fireworks displays | :25:49. | :26:15. | |
tonight. If you have one planned, particularly in England and Wales, | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
the weather may play | :26:18. | :26:18. |