02/11/2013 Dateline London


02/11/2013

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There's a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC News

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Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline `

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America's Secretary of State says the US may have gone too far on

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spying. Syria hands over its chemical weapons facilities ` but

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where is Iran now on its nuclear programme? And Britain's energy

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companies on trial ` but is David Cameron turning less Green? My

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guests are Vincent Magombe of Africa Inform International, Nazenin Ansari

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of Iran's Kayhan, Catherine Mayer of Time Magazine and Alex Deane of

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Conservative Home. US Secretary of State John Kerry suggested that

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America may have gone too far on some of the spying activities made

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public by the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. Meanwhile the

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journalist at the heart of the affair, Glenn Greenwald, says he has

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many more revelations to come. Has lasting damage been done to

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America's spying capabilities ` and the reputation of the Obama

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administration? It is being taken seriously, but not for the reasons

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you might think. It is a lot more to do with the way this is being

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managed than the fact that the spying took place. All the evidence

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suggests that people do accept an amazing level of intrusion of

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producing these days if they think it protects them. What they don't

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accept is an incompetent government that is not looking after them. It

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seems to go all the way up to the top, although the denial may be

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beyond possible, it may be true. The worst of it is, it does look as if

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it's true. John Kerry is taking on an interesting role in this

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government. You saw a little remark he made in the London press

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conference, entirely shifting the ground on Syria. You are now

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seeing, because we do not know how well the government is planning

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things, you wonder if the government is exercising banana skin diplomacy

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or splat are. What he is now saying may again create all sorts of

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unintended consequences that may be helpful, which is one of the funny

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things that has happened before. They have an off a lot of work to do

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to win over the governments who are upset by what they have been doing.

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Because Angela Merkel does not see the funny side, among others. Some

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of the responses in Burlington, they are absolutely spitting tacks. They

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are spitting tacks because America is still presuming to tell them how

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to run their economy and telling them off or to driven. They are

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saying, you have had the government shutdown for weeks and we have had

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to deal with the consequences. It now turns out that Angela Merkel,

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who sends a lot of texts, has been having everyone of them looked at. I

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must start by saying I am completely shocked that European governments

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are finding this quite shocking. They say they are finding it

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shocking. Whether they be find it shocking is another masterful Op I

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say that because you know where I come from, Africa. We knew about

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American spying and that the raw end of the consequences for a long time.

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When Americans spied on Germany or France, they're not going to kill

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the President in that country as a consequence. In Africa, when you

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look at people who are supposed to be great leaders, they have been

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killed is through American spies in the early 60s. All these types of

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things. In later years, someone like Edie in was brought to power with

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the help of British spy agencies. So as an African, I am not at all

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surprised, but I am shocked but others find it shocking. Of course,

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there has never been any spying into or out of Iran. It is like eating at

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the bar on the international scene. Everybody loves it, likes the

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taste, but nobody wants to admit when it comes from. There has been

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recently this understanding between Europe, the United States,

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Australia, New Zealand and Canada will top they are all sharing this

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information and intelligence. What is interesting from this discussion

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is that number one, the American president has very low popularity

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ratings and it is not because of the spying, it is because of the health

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care reform and because there hasn't been any good new news story.

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Everything he has pointed his finger on has been a disaster. Look at

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Egypt, Syria. But I think there is a silver lining in all of this, and

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that is Glenn Greenwald. He has been able to get $50 million to start his

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own media website. So journalism is OK, but the rest of the world isn't.

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Independent journalism. So there is money for that. The Washington Post

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is now diverted his attention. David Cameron has been largely as silent

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as a Prime Minister can be. You don't want to criticise your

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most important ally. You want to find out if you would information

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has been accessed. As far as Germans are concerned, they take their

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privacy very seriously, for good historical reasons. Especially

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Angela Merkel, who grew up in the East. I welcome John Kerry's

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remarks, opening the door to discuss this. But the Americans went far too

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far. Let's be clear. The people thing to themselves, they are doing

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this to my head is state, what protection do we have for our own

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information? The Americans are spying on supposed allies. I don't

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think I would mind someone spying on my head is date, depending on which

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Edwards date. If you turn this look at the people who talk this, Edward

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Snowden and others, they had great luck in trying to spy on the

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government systems. I wish tomorrow they can do that African

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governments. The corruption they will find, how they kill people. And

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the Iranians government, you would agree with that? Basically, I want

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to spy on their negotiations to see what is going on. No one knows what

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is going on full top my point was not about whether this is OK to pry

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on governments, my point is about governments spying on other nations

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and using that moral high ground which Americans need.

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If you look at what is coming out, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, even

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the United States, have been using their embassies. I we not being a

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bit naive? It has always gone on, but the technology has changed. It

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is absolutely true that one of the reasons people are not nearly as

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outraged about this as the campaigners on this issue would like

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them to be is because everybody has assumed that that is what is going

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on and a lot of people really don't mind about it. A lot of people would

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say that is why they pay their taxes. To bring it back to the

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government stumbles in the United States, that is why people are

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linking it to the health care reforms. They are saying, you have

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these resources and you are unable to spy on people across the world

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and you cannot run a website? Let's move on. Syria ` according to

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the outside experts ` has complied with demands that it hand over its

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means to produce chemical weapons this week ` though destroying the

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weapons themselves will take many months. It comes as talks on Iran's

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nuclear programme continue. So how far is the most dangerous region on

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earth becoming possibly a little less dangerous? The moves in Syria

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have been broadly welcomed. Yes, but if you think it is becoming more

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stable or less dangerous, that is aspirational. What is happening in

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Iran at the moment, as far as the nuclear negotiations are concerned,

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they will restart on the 7th of November. A day after the

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anniversary of the siege of the US embassy. It will be interesting to

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see what will be the reaction on the streets of Iran full top only

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yesterday, all the Friday prayer leaders around the country started

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criticising not only the United States, but also criticising the

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talks. So Friday prayer leaders doing that all across the country

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means one thing, that they are getting their notes from the supreme

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leader 's office. Why this change of heart? Why, when we thought we would

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get three to six months. I think it is the insecurity Iranians feel

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inside. Only last week, there was an attack by rebels from the Pakistan

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area, killing Iranians ordered guards. Two Kurdish people have been

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executed in Iran. The state of siege within the security services in Iran

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has increased. Whether that will affect the nuclear negotiations are

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not, that remains to be seen. But it is a general rule that countries

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where the government feels under threat or week for some reason,

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either economic league, tends not to be in a position to make deals. This

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will be a big week, seen from the Iranians position, it is a big leap

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to take will stop of course. Seen from the Syrians, things look

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different now. I think your question to us was, has it become less

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dangerous? I think it has become less or vertically or press as a

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regime. I don't welcome this regime for one moment, but the dangers

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posed either rebels have grown significantly. This has gone from

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being an internally signed conflict within Syria to one that draws

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elements from outside. We're told over 70 journalists are missing in

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Syria. Two years ago, it was the regime you had to feel if you would

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report. That is not just the case any more. The rebels are capturing

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reporters and holding them hostage or worse. The danger from the

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oppressive regime has lessened, but the danger in the region has not.

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You could see giving up the chemical weapons may be a way of securing

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your future. Great move from President Assad. He

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has nothing to lose in terms of the Pirate he has. He has enough

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conventional weaponry to dominate the scene. He doesn't need the

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chemical weapons. He also has the opportunity to shame Western powers

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and individuals. There is a reason we had a pretty good sense of what

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was there in Syria, because we have the sales receipts.

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You didn't need to bug telephones, you had the receipts. I am a

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campaigner for democracy in my country. The big Bob is when all

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these international by mentions come into Lake, like we're seeing in

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Syria. We forget the bigger story, which is the relationship between

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Syria and the dictator. Everyone is praising him, because he has made a

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great move. He may have made a great move in terms of chemical weapons,

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but his oppression of the Syrian people is not going to end. My worry

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is that whenever we have all these international players coming in in

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our liberation struggles, things get muddled up. Now we have to judge the

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dictator in the eyes of America and the world and what they say about

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the chemical and is. People have been struggling in Syria to try to

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liberate and have democracy. I also want to mention one thing which is

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very, very troubling for us in Africa, these double standards of

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Western countries or international organisations and so on. Here you

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are, you want to blast Syria out of that, or Gaddafi, because of the oil

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and so on. I am here, I come from Uganda, I have to mention my

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dictator, Idi Amin. Not Idi Amin, I'm sorry. I say him because we have

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suffered a lot to dictators in Uganda, but other current dictator

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is the greatest friend of America because he is fighting in Somalia

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for them. He is a big man. This type of double standards is undermining

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the capacity of us simple people to fight for our freedoms. I think the

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Syrian people will very soon discover they can't do anything once

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the man has satisfied the West in terms of chemical and and so on. The

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whole story of democratic campaigning will have to stop. I

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think there is a series of excellent points. Look what is happening in

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Iraq. Iraq is, I'm afraid, absolutely falling back into total

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chaos again. A lot of what you just said, everything about Iraq was gone

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about, as we now know, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong way, without

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an eye to how it would play out. Nobody knows how it will play out.

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Although I think a lot of people had honourable reasons for doing what

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they did, those honourable reasons have come back to bite them. There

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was always a lot of cynicism and double standards, and that has

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continued to have repercussions throughout the world when we are

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talking about any kind of intervention. It is one of the

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reasons people stood back from Syria and let it get so bad that it came

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to a point where intervention was not really going to work anyway. So

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bad that polio outbreaks in 2013, a disease that we thought we had got

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pretty much under control as a world, people being killed by

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conventional weapons, people finding living conditions appalling.

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Sometimes in the rich world we forget that. And another piece of

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news not exactly in that region, that you have had the drone strike

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that took out the Taliban head just at the point where negotiations were

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at a critical stage. In Pakistan. Sorry, in Waziristan. If you think

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that these strollers strikes are necessarily the way to conduct these

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operations and diplomacy, you need to look at how that looks on the

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ground. You have the collateral damage and, secondly, a kind of

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warfare that appears not to involve any danger to the people inflicting

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those strikes. Again, there is the assumption of we know what is

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right, we can act as God and do this. I am not saying it is always

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wrong, clearly there are arguments for it, but you have to understand

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the way it looks in the countries it is happening in. At home, David

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Cameron rebranded the Conservative Party by giving it a green tree logo

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and talking enthusiastically on green issues, but with written 's

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energy companies effectively on trial, are there signs that economic

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realities are making the Cameron government less green? He has talked

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about green levies on electricity bills, this is the hottest political

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issue, domestic league, at the moment. Is he becoming less green? I

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think the leadership as a whole is becoming less focused on

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environmental issues, that is unquestionable. I think that is down

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to the economic situation dominating the debate, people are looking much

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more at how numbers work than before. Secondly, the voice of

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scepticism is becoming very important within my party and the

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donor base, so there are many people in and around the leadership who

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have always been sceptical about the environmental movement, particularly

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about the claims made about the capacity for sustainable energy to

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provide energy in the short term and also the harm caused by global

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warming. Some voices have been successfully mounting a campaign

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saying we should not be to how shirt about this and we have to

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concentrate more on the cost of living. But Labour's position has

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also driven it, Labour saying they will cap energy prices. We have just

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had energy prices leaping up by an average of ten per cent. Those

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things are not and connect. If you think there is the possibility of a

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Labour government, it is a very strong possibility, the logical

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thing to do is put your price up before it happens. In war, political

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terms, you could say that whatever you think about whether or not you

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can cap prices, that is a win for Miliband because he can say, look at

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the evil Conservative Government letting prices go up? Even if you

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buy the case that people don't think about businesses within economic

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terms. If this is need to make a profit to invest, generate more

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jobs, the entrepreneurial and keep this is going. We need to keep the

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lights on. That argument is becoming stronger in the Conservative Party,

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that we should be on the side of those trying to keep the lights on.

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Do you think the Tory party effort was actually green, was this a real

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thing? I am really curious. In the very early days of Cameron he was on

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his bicycle with a limo following, that became a kind of symbol for it

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being green washing as opposed to deeply felt. I think that is a fair

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question, but there is a significant and genuine commitment to the

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environment. There is a strong narrative around concerning things,

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I like my garden and the countryside, in conservatism. Right

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up until March when energy prices were spiking, people were struggling

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to keep the gas on. I wonder if there is a wider point, which is

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that environmentalism has been something which you think about in

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good times, and you can afford to think about it, and that is about,

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can I keep the gas on and heat my home? As an immigrant in Britain, I

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see a lot of these things, these trees symbols etc, as great symbols.

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I agree with you, somebody has to do the hard economic of what these

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companies are doing, but as an immigrant, somebody staying in

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Britain as an immigrant, I think that, really, we have to accept that

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the Conservative Party is the party of rich men... OK, let me put it

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this way, the party of business. You are trying to guard that role that

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they can put up prices because they need to provide electricity and so

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on, but just go down to immigrant communities in this country, and not

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just immigrant communities, because you can say, you come from outside,

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that is your problem. Not you, that there is a general feeling in this

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country! If you go to most poor people in this country, they are

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struggling, even the middle classes, they can't pay the bills. Why is

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this company telling me... ? The Government position was not that

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week think prices should continue to go up, it is that we don't think we

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should cap energy prices so we should look at removing green taxes

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from what is driving up prices. That is just semantics. Prices can come

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down if you lose some of the tax on top of energy provision. If the

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government starts cutting tax on energy providers, the clamour for

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the price to come down on your gas Bill will be... In Scotland, the SNP

:23:46.:23:55.

says that if they win the referendum next year, they will fund green

:23:56.:24:00.

levies differently. It won't come out of your electricity or gas

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bills, it will be general taxation. We will still be green but pay for

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it more progressively? Certainly, Cameron, Hague, everybody, they

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voted for the climate change act of Mr Miliband. As far as the question

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of whether they are green or not. Whether anybody is green or not, I

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think most people nowadays, you talk to them and they care about green

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issues, about recycling, but how to pay for it is another question.

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Where, I think, Mr Cameron might also... He suggested, let's create

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more competition with the energy companies. There would be more

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energy companies. I would be more reserved, keep my reservations about

:24:51.:24:56.

creating more companies and more competitions. At the end of the day,

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every time there has been more privatisation we have ended up

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paying more. We have about 30 seconds, there is political

:25:05.:25:09.

consensus that the energy market in Britain is broken. I don't know if

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it is broken, we need to expand and liberalise more. I would not say we

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are party for business, we are party for markets. We produce enough hot

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air in Parliament... We have to get fracking now. We have to be energy

:25:30.:25:35.

independent. Fracking, we should do a proper discussion on fracking, but

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we have run out of time. We will be back next week at the same time with

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plenty of hot air. You can comment on twitter at @gavinesler,

:25:45.:25:48.

#BBCDateline. Goodbye. A big night for fireworks displays

:25:49.:26:15.

tonight. If you have one planned, particularly in England and Wales,

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the weather may play

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