Browse content similar to 07/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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a walk on May the 27th. We will have more details on that in a bulletin | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
at the top of the hour. Now it is time for dateline London live with | :00:00. | :00:30. | |
Gavin Esler. The World War II Allies celebrated 13, but where dies Russia | :00:31. | :00:41. | |
`` does Russia fit in? And combating Muslim extremism in schools. Russia | :00:42. | :00:58. | |
has been excluded from meetings of the G8 and warned that further | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
sanctions could follow. As we remember D`Day and the struggle | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
against Nasr is, what has to change for Russia, Europe and the United | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
States? It was a poignant moment. President Putin being seen as a bit | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
of an outsider. It is a perfect illustration of the absurdity of the | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
situation. On D`Day, a day when we commemorate the millions and | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
millions of lives lost in the Second World War, and we hopefully now | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
about Russia's contribution to that, and at the same time Russia is | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
being sidelined and lectured and being put on the backbench. What | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
needs to be done is the West, the G7 or whatever, need to realise that | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
actually there is a lot more reason behind Russia's actions than it is | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
given credit for. There should be a genuine attempt to understand the | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
motives and to see the situation on the ground. There is talk about | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
Russia meddling in Ukraine and I am told, where is the evidence? The | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
evidence is that these people speak Russian but half the Ukrainians | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
speak Russian as their first language, so that is the difficulty. | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
President Poroshenko has been sworn in and said that people should lay | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
down their weapons. That seems to have been welcomed in Moscow. Do use | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
it possible that Ukraine and Russia can solve their differences? I do | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
not think there is any other way. They will have to. It has been a | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
difficult 20 years in relationships between Ukraine and Russia. It has | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
been overlooked. In Moscow, definitely, the way that the | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
relationship has been developing in this negative, very negative, | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
manner. You do not move Ukraine and you do not move Russia. They are | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
destined to sit next each other and cooperate. The interesting thing is | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
that at the end of the Cold War there have been huge changes but | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
there has never been the equivalent of the Congress of Vienna, the | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
equivalent of big powers with differences sitting down together | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
and deciding what kind of future we want for Europe. We kid ourselves to | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
think that conflict of an old nature are behind us. They are inherent | :03:52. | :04:00. | |
mindsets that have shown themselves to be still present and President | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
Putin has said that the demise of the Soviet Union is the biggest | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
catastrophe of modern days and he seems to think in terms of the old | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
communist ideology of the near abroad, of adjacent countries | :04:18. | :04:31. | |
somehow belonging to Russia. We tend to completely forget about the | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
Russian contribution to winning the Second World War. One thing that | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
will fully comes out of D`Day is that we become more aware of the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably more | :04:44. | :04:43. | |
enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably instrumental than all of | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
the others combined. This awareness is always overshadowed by the topic | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
of conflict about Ukraine which detracts us from recognising | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
Russia's contribution. It was never written down. You mentioned the | :05:04. | :05:13. | |
Congress of Vienna. A year from now we will be doing the 200th | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
anniversary. They were partitioned. When the great powers get together, | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
whether it is at the un or elsewhere, they always mess things | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
up and we end up with Civil War. Including Iraq and elsewhere. And in | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
the Balkans. Europe has so much history and so many anniversaries we | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
can mark and so on. What I have learned in all of the years I have | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
covered civil wars and conflicts, and I think this might apply in | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Ukraine, the leaders of the great powers can say one thing but it does | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
not mean that another thing happens on the ground. A territory, and | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
nation, if they wants to fight it out, President Putin can say what he | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
wants and needle can see what they want, if the people living inside | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
this state do not want to stay together, it will be very difficult | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
to stay together. What I learned is that on both sides, in the east and | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
the west, people will say, look at what happened to check in Slovakia. | :06:35. | :06:47. | |
It was only two weeks ago that I learned that over 25 million | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
Russians died in the Second World War. We were not taught at all about | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
the Russian role in the defeat of Nasr them `` Nazism. Soviets. It is | :06:59. | :07:15. | |
very important. We have done anniversary after anniversary. We | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
never teach our children about that this war would not have been won | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
without them. When we were in school, maybe not, but I am sure in | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
the 70s and 80s. You are school, maybe not, but I am sure in | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
the 70s and 80s. wrong. I checked with my daughter, who was 21 this | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
year. I asked her if she was taught about the Russians. They were taught | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
about the siege of Stalingrad, but that is it. They were not got. There | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
is a myth that this country has developed, good old Britain and a | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
bit of America, won the war. We have to get rid of that. Our children | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
have to define this moment as a collective. The problem with Russia | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
as there are several chapters where the next one wipes out the previous | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
one. We were looking at the Cold War, and identity, in relation to | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
our interests and there was very little appetite to remember. History | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
is history. People are taught that and taught about Poland being | :08:33. | :08:49. | |
divided. I am not be so be it. `` a Soviet. They are not taught because | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
Britain, our allies, that only came in ten years ago. Tel Michael Gove | :08:57. | :09:08. | |
to teach them about this. Britain and Germany argue over the choice of | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
the person likely to become the leader of the European Union. Why is | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
David Cameron so set against one of the candidates? I do not think he is | :09:18. | :09:28. | |
going to be the new head. Angela Merkel argued for it because she | :09:29. | :09:38. | |
wears two hats. He is a representative of the European | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
Council where she is an important head of government and the European | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Council is in no we agreed on giving this candidate the head. You have to | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
ask which point of view is eventually going to win the day. One | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
phrase in the Lisbon Treaty which is often not recognised, the right of | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
suggesting the head of the commission lies with the European | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
Council while giving due allowance to the result of the elections. One | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
camp say that giving due allowance to the elections means it is that | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
candidate because of the majority rule in Parliament but this year the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
elections have brought out a different result altogether, not | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
just names and figureheads of parties, but this huge alienation | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
people feel towards Brussels and the wording of the Lisbon Treaty making | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
allowances for the result means you have to be aware of the need for | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
some fresh approach to solving the problem. Are you suggesting Angela | :10:40. | :10:51. | |
Merkel is being duplicitous? Because she is a woman! She is between a | :10:52. | :11:00. | |
rock and a hard place. She cannot make up her mind. Is he not regarded | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
as the poster boy for business in Europe? One of the problems for the | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
European Union and for the council and the commission is it is the same | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
faces year in, year out. People have made careers out of the gravy | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
train. It is part of the corruption, which is not to say that | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
all of the people in Europe, as is the mess in the newspapers, wants | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
the end of the euro and the end of the European Union, what they want | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
is an end to the old boys network `` old boys' network. The only other | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
name being bandied about is the person running the IMF. If you ask | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
me, that is a much more powerful job, and she gets to live in | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
Washington. There is this interesting thing about European | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
democracy. Was it evil against the European Union or evil against | :12:09. | :12:18. | |
national government `` at the old a vote? It was both. There is this | :12:19. | :12:27. | |
madness that Europe is all of our problems, which it is not, but I | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
want to break the network. Not a single woman, just white men others | :12:33. | :12:44. | |
`` of a certain age. Do people care? 51% of us care very much about | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
women. But I mean care about the job? A lot of us. We are very | :12:49. | :12:58. | |
ignorant about the problems. I think it would help if you got a fresh | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
face who was not part of this club but who was also a woman. It is | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
time. Europe, it is time. Perceptions are very important. Very | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
few candidates,, it has been said about insiders and the elite kind of | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
personality but you have to have the perception of a fresh face on a new | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
beginning. A new beginning is important. People feel distanced | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
from the centre of the European heart and you have to take | :13:30. | :13:31. | |
recognition of this alienation and to go ahead business as usual would | :13:32. | :13:40. | |
be disastrous. The man has done himself a great disservice. He has | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
been tweeting about being confident about getting the top job and then | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
seeing his party are against him. I do not think that quality in him is | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
completely disqualified. If indeed the is an art federalist as he is | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
described, he definitely is somebody that the German voters, as the | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
We are paying for these people. What We are paying for | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
collection of nations pulling every way? That is not what we want | :14:24. | :14:48. | |
obvious UK made not in favour of it. That would probably influence the | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
outcome of the Scottish referendum. Yes. Barack Obama was pretty | :14:54. | :15:03. | |
remarkable this week saying that it was very clear that Britain should | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
stay in the EU and Scotland should stay in the UK. Why should we listen | :15:06. | :15:17. | |
to what the United States says? He was handing out, as the leader of | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
the free world and still the only hit Germany `` hegemony. He is not | :15:26. | :15:40. | |
alone. The leagues do not like geopolitical changes, whether it | :15:41. | :15:40. | |
comes through the Civil War. They like the map of the | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
policies, and they've got more if it changes, they have to | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
important things to worry about. But I do think as an official view from | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
outside, it has got nothing to do with ideology, | :15:55. | :16:12. | |
living in America, all over the former Empire who would see, I will | :16:13. | :16:22. | |
tell you why. It is because Scotland is it's `` is its own nation. 200 | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
years ago, we could say that break away from the wonderful | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
British Empire? We would say, 13 countries, you're not thinking about | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
federalising yourselves, are you? You could still rejoin the great | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
British Empire. I wonder, it makes headlines, I don't think it will | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
change a single vote. Barack Obama said people will make up their own | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
minds. How would America feel if we had said, we in Europe do not | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
approve of what is happening there. I think it is good the Scots are | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
being asked. During the British Civil War... It was alongside at `` | :17:08. | :17:18. | |
time ago. I think it is good because this has been an emotional feeling | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
in the Scots for so long, let them have their say, and I think it has | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
been very badly handled by our leaders. The yes campaign, a lot are | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
politicians lectured them about what politicians lectured them about what | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
would happen, these scare stories, that they are going to do it for the | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
wrong reasons, just to show them, to show the English, which has been | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
their motive for life. It is very rarely people are being asked about | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
who they are and what identity they attach to themselves, and this makes | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
for a fascinating story. I understand Barack Obama, because I | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
think Britain might fragment, and we cannot reconcile that in our minds | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
with British history and Europe as a whole. I understand that they want | :18:08. | :18:16. | |
big nation states to stay together because if written fragments, then | :18:17. | :18:26. | |
it is a signal for Spain, Bavaria... Nobody has mentioned the Northern | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Ireland dilemma. Look at the mess that was created by the splitting | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
off of Ireland. The emotional mess in Northern Ireland to this day. A | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
population planted there who has loyalty to the United Kingdom. We | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
have our own examples of how difficult these situations are. | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
Moving on, when British Cabinet ministers congratulate each other on | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
doing a great job it is often a sign that they have had a really serious | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
disagreement. So it is with Michael Gove and to reason May. The argument | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
is over Islamic extremism. It is about whether the state should act | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
against terrorism or extremist teachings. What do you think about | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
that big argument about what you should do about people who are | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
believed to be teaching things which you regard as extremist? One of the | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
things we need to be clear about is there is terrorism, extremism, | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
fundamentalism, conservative Islam, and each one produces a whole bucket | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
of problems. It is important to look at the country we are, which is | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
next, liberal democracy, and look at the problems. I cannot bear how | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
lazily politicians and journalists mixed them up as if for a child to | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
be taught is land is the only faith and you must not mixed with | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
non`Muslims, which is a terrible thing happening in our schools, is | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
the same as somebody being taught to go and bomb yourself in the name of | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
whatever. I think we should be clearer. I cannot be Michael Gove | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
and I don't trust anything he says, but I know for a fact as a Muslim | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
journalist there is a problem in some of these schools. There is a | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
problem of self exclusion. Of being taught... I had an e`mail yesterday | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
from a young boy who is gay and in one of these schools. It made me | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
weep. Because he can express... He is so frightened, he is threatening | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
to kill himself. He said he is so scared, he thinks he is going to | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
die. We have to think about the particularities of each of these | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
problems. Muslims are right in saying we are not all terrorists or | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
extremist, we need to be clearer. It is a basic principle of British | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
legislation that you do not criticise people for what they | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
think. What you do is different when it is about people who commit acts. | :21:08. | :21:17. | |
In this case, this is one where free schools `` these schools in | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
Birmingham, this one had the highest ratings of Ofsted and is now going | :21:21. | :21:28. | |
to be taken into special measures, effectively taken into | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
administration by the state. We don't know the facts. Moving onto | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
the political, what happens now is you have two senior Cabinet | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
figures, both of whom may be jockeying to replace David Cameron | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
in the future. One of them is a former newspaper columnist. In all | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
his years in politics, he has never lost his newspaper columnist | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
instincts. He says staff to stir up the pot. He was great at that when | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
he was at the times but he is a Minister of state, and he flies off | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
half cocked now. It is education, it is a very serious portfolio and he | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
is now in a conflict with Theresa May, and he may be exacerbating what | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
is going on in the schools because now the entire nation's focus is on | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
the schools and we don't know what has been going on. When you decide | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
to free schools up, this is his big project, free schools, faith | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
schools, the number of faith schools has shot up, and you decide what | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
will be taught. He started this problem. The free schools started | :22:46. | :22:54. | |
this problem. To me, it sounds like the core issue, the problem of | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
extremism or whatever is overshadowed by a personality clash. | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
You open any newspaper and it is mostly about May versus Michael Gove | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
or vice versa. That is not it. The deeper existential problem is that | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
of identifying extremism. Exactly. The really difficult problem, which | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
has been a problem for years, has been what does a tolerant society do | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
about people who preach things which are fundamentally intolerant? What | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
do you do about that? Michael Gove has put his finger on that. His | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
Cabinet colleague says he was slow on the uptake. That is interesting | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
when you mention the tolerant society. I have always found Britain | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
to be overcautious, not trying to get heavy with a sledgehammer when | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
these problems occur. No other country let these problems fester | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
for so long. Look at Abu Hamza, how long he was allowed to preach | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
outside his mosque. Now in jail in the states. At the same time, when | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
trees a stand`up and pretends to be the liberal in this... `` Theresa | :24:23. | :24:39. | |
May. She is not a liberal. But she has presented herself. We are | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
arresting more and more of young Muslims, and the anger is partly | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
leading is a very difficult rob them, and | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
Michael Gove, through freeing up education, has created part of it, | :24:54. | :24:54. | |
but very unhelpful. What do you do about | :24:55. | :25:06. | |
people who are the hate preachers? Whether it is Abu Hamza or people | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
who are more subtle, what do you do? I would not have had them on the BBC | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
as often as they were. They became more prominent because, especially | :25:17. | :25:25. | |
Abu Hamza, you could not turn the radio on without hearing him | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
ranting. Those are full offensive preachers have gone from the media | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
now. What you have to do is put down guidelines. `` those terrible | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
offensive preachers. You cannot hire people who insist on gender | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
segregation at universities. That is not what they are about. That is | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
what Theresa May is saying, she wants a mandatory code of conduct, | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
not a voluntary one. She wants schools to be forced to follow a | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
mandatory conduct. We have got a mandatory winding up because we have | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
ran out of time. That is it for Dateline London for this week. You | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
can contact us on Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye. | :26:12. | :26:39. | |
lightning this morning. More to come this afternoon. Some of us who have | :26:40. | :26:49. | |
not had the storms so far or the downpours, they could be on their | :26:50. | :26:51. |