07/06/2014 Dateline London


07/06/2014

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a walk on May the 27th. We will have more details on that in a bulletin

:00:00.:00:00.

at the top of the hour. Now it is time for dateline London live with

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Gavin Esler. The World War II Allies celebrated 13, but where dies Russia

:00:31.:00:41.

`` does Russia fit in? And combating Muslim extremism in schools. Russia

:00:42.:00:58.

has been excluded from meetings of the G8 and warned that further

:00:59.:01:06.

sanctions could follow. As we remember D`Day and the struggle

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against Nasr is, what has to change for Russia, Europe and the United

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States? It was a poignant moment. President Putin being seen as a bit

:01:18.:01:23.

of an outsider. It is a perfect illustration of the absurdity of the

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situation. On D`Day, a day when we commemorate the millions and

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millions of lives lost in the Second World War, and we hopefully now

:01:36.:01:42.

about Russia's contribution to that, and at the same time Russia is

:01:43.:01:47.

being sidelined and lectured and being put on the backbench. What

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needs to be done is the West, the G7 or whatever, need to realise that

:01:56.:02:02.

actually there is a lot more reason behind Russia's actions than it is

:02:03.:02:10.

given credit for. There should be a genuine attempt to understand the

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motives and to see the situation on the ground. There is talk about

:02:15.:02:21.

Russia meddling in Ukraine and I am told, where is the evidence? The

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evidence is that these people speak Russian but half the Ukrainians

:02:27.:02:29.

speak Russian as their first language, so that is the difficulty.

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President Poroshenko has been sworn in and said that people should lay

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down their weapons. That seems to have been welcomed in Moscow. Do use

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it possible that Ukraine and Russia can solve their differences? I do

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not think there is any other way. They will have to. It has been a

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difficult 20 years in relationships between Ukraine and Russia. It has

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been overlooked. In Moscow, definitely, the way that the

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relationship has been developing in this negative, very negative,

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manner. You do not move Ukraine and you do not move Russia. They are

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destined to sit next each other and cooperate. The interesting thing is

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that at the end of the Cold War there have been huge changes but

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there has never been the equivalent of the Congress of Vienna, the

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equivalent of big powers with differences sitting down together

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and deciding what kind of future we want for Europe. We kid ourselves to

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think that conflict of an old nature are behind us. They are inherent

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mindsets that have shown themselves to be still present and President

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Putin has said that the demise of the Soviet Union is the biggest

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catastrophe of modern days and he seems to think in terms of the old

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communist ideology of the near abroad, of adjacent countries

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somehow belonging to Russia. We tend to completely forget about the

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Russian contribution to winning the Second World War. One thing that

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will fully comes out of D`Day is that we become more aware of the

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enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably more

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enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably instrumental than all of

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the others combined. This awareness is always overshadowed by the topic

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of conflict about Ukraine which detracts us from recognising

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Russia's contribution. It was never written down. You mentioned the

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Congress of Vienna. A year from now we will be doing the 200th

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anniversary. They were partitioned. When the great powers get together,

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whether it is at the un or elsewhere, they always mess things

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up and we end up with Civil War. Including Iraq and elsewhere. And in

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the Balkans. Europe has so much history and so many anniversaries we

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can mark and so on. What I have learned in all of the years I have

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covered civil wars and conflicts, and I think this might apply in

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Ukraine, the leaders of the great powers can say one thing but it does

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not mean that another thing happens on the ground. A territory, and

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nation, if they wants to fight it out, President Putin can say what he

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wants and needle can see what they want, if the people living inside

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this state do not want to stay together, it will be very difficult

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to stay together. What I learned is that on both sides, in the east and

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the west, people will say, look at what happened to check in Slovakia.

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It was only two weeks ago that I learned that over 25 million

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Russians died in the Second World War. We were not taught at all about

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the Russian role in the defeat of Nasr them `` Nazism. Soviets. It is

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very important. We have done anniversary after anniversary. We

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never teach our children about that this war would not have been won

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without them. When we were in school, maybe not, but I am sure in

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the 70s and 80s. You are school, maybe not, but I am sure in

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the 70s and 80s. wrong. I checked with my daughter, who was 21 this

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year. I asked her if she was taught about the Russians. They were taught

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about the siege of Stalingrad, but that is it. They were not got. There

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is a myth that this country has developed, good old Britain and a

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bit of America, won the war. We have to get rid of that. Our children

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have to define this moment as a collective. The problem with Russia

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as there are several chapters where the next one wipes out the previous

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one. We were looking at the Cold War, and identity, in relation to

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our interests and there was very little appetite to remember. History

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is history. People are taught that and taught about Poland being

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divided. I am not be so be it. `` a Soviet. They are not taught because

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Britain, our allies, that only came in ten years ago. Tel Michael Gove

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to teach them about this. Britain and Germany argue over the choice of

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the person likely to become the leader of the European Union. Why is

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David Cameron so set against one of the candidates? I do not think he is

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going to be the new head. Angela Merkel argued for it because she

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wears two hats. He is a representative of the European

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Council where she is an important head of government and the European

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Council is in no we agreed on giving this candidate the head. You have to

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ask which point of view is eventually going to win the day. One

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phrase in the Lisbon Treaty which is often not recognised, the right of

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suggesting the head of the commission lies with the European

:10:05.:10:08.

Council while giving due allowance to the result of the elections. One

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camp say that giving due allowance to the elections means it is that

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candidate because of the majority rule in Parliament but this year the

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elections have brought out a different result altogether, not

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just names and figureheads of parties, but this huge alienation

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people feel towards Brussels and the wording of the Lisbon Treaty making

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allowances for the result means you have to be aware of the need for

:10:36.:10:39.

some fresh approach to solving the problem. Are you suggesting Angela

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Merkel is being duplicitous? Because she is a woman! She is between a

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rock and a hard place. She cannot make up her mind. Is he not regarded

:11:01.:11:06.

as the poster boy for business in Europe? One of the problems for the

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European Union and for the council and the commission is it is the same

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faces year in, year out. People have made careers out of the gravy

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train. It is part of the corruption, which is not to say that

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all of the people in Europe, as is the mess in the newspapers, wants

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the end of the euro and the end of the European Union, what they want

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is an end to the old boys network `` old boys' network. The only other

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name being bandied about is the person running the IMF. If you ask

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me, that is a much more powerful job, and she gets to live in

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Washington. There is this interesting thing about European

:12:04.:12:08.

democracy. Was it evil against the European Union or evil against

:12:09.:12:18.

national government `` at the old a vote? It was both. There is this

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madness that Europe is all of our problems, which it is not, but I

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want to break the network. Not a single woman, just white men others

:12:33.:12:44.

`` of a certain age. Do people care? 51% of us care very much about

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women. But I mean care about the job? A lot of us. We are very

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ignorant about the problems. I think it would help if you got a fresh

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face who was not part of this club but who was also a woman. It is

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time. Europe, it is time. Perceptions are very important. Very

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few candidates,, it has been said about insiders and the elite kind of

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personality but you have to have the perception of a fresh face on a new

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beginning. A new beginning is important. People feel distanced

:13:27.:13:29.

from the centre of the European heart and you have to take

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recognition of this alienation and to go ahead business as usual would

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be disastrous. The man has done himself a great disservice. He has

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been tweeting about being confident about getting the top job and then

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seeing his party are against him. I do not think that quality in him is

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completely disqualified. If indeed the is an art federalist as he is

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described, he definitely is somebody that the German voters, as the

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We are paying for these people. What We are paying for

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collection of nations pulling every way? That is not what we want

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obvious UK made not in favour of it. That would probably influence the

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outcome of the Scottish referendum. Yes. Barack Obama was pretty

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remarkable this week saying that it was very clear that Britain should

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stay in the EU and Scotland should stay in the UK. Why should we listen

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to what the United States says? He was handing out, as the leader of

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the free world and still the only hit Germany `` hegemony. He is not

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alone. The leagues do not like geopolitical changes, whether it

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comes through the Civil War. They like the map of the

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policies, and they've got more if it changes, they have to

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important things to worry about. But I do think as an official view from

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outside, it has got nothing to do with ideology,

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living in America, all over the former Empire who would see, I will

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tell you why. It is because Scotland is it's `` is its own nation. 200

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years ago, we could say that break away from the wonderful

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British Empire? We would say, 13 countries, you're not thinking about

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federalising yourselves, are you? You could still rejoin the great

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British Empire. I wonder, it makes headlines, I don't think it will

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change a single vote. Barack Obama said people will make up their own

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minds. How would America feel if we had said, we in Europe do not

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approve of what is happening there. I think it is good the Scots are

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being asked. During the British Civil War... It was alongside at ``

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time ago. I think it is good because this has been an emotional feeling

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in the Scots for so long, let them have their say, and I think it has

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been very badly handled by our leaders. The yes campaign, a lot are

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politicians lectured them about what politicians lectured them about what

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would happen, these scare stories, that they are going to do it for the

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wrong reasons, just to show them, to show the English, which has been

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their motive for life. It is very rarely people are being asked about

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who they are and what identity they attach to themselves, and this makes

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for a fascinating story. I understand Barack Obama, because I

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think Britain might fragment, and we cannot reconcile that in our minds

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with British history and Europe as a whole. I understand that they want

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big nation states to stay together because if written fragments, then

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it is a signal for Spain, Bavaria... Nobody has mentioned the Northern

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Ireland dilemma. Look at the mess that was created by the splitting

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off of Ireland. The emotional mess in Northern Ireland to this day. A

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population planted there who has loyalty to the United Kingdom. We

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have our own examples of how difficult these situations are.

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Moving on, when British Cabinet ministers congratulate each other on

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doing a great job it is often a sign that they have had a really serious

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disagreement. So it is with Michael Gove and to reason May. The argument

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is over Islamic extremism. It is about whether the state should act

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against terrorism or extremist teachings. What do you think about

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that big argument about what you should do about people who are

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believed to be teaching things which you regard as extremist? One of the

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things we need to be clear about is there is terrorism, extremism,

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fundamentalism, conservative Islam, and each one produces a whole bucket

:19:31.:19:35.

of problems. It is important to look at the country we are, which is

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next, liberal democracy, and look at the problems. I cannot bear how

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lazily politicians and journalists mixed them up as if for a child to

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be taught is land is the only faith and you must not mixed with

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non`Muslims, which is a terrible thing happening in our schools, is

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the same as somebody being taught to go and bomb yourself in the name of

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whatever. I think we should be clearer. I cannot be Michael Gove

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and I don't trust anything he says, but I know for a fact as a Muslim

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journalist there is a problem in some of these schools. There is a

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problem of self exclusion. Of being taught... I had an e`mail yesterday

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from a young boy who is gay and in one of these schools. It made me

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weep. Because he can express... He is so frightened, he is threatening

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to kill himself. He said he is so scared, he thinks he is going to

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die. We have to think about the particularities of each of these

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problems. Muslims are right in saying we are not all terrorists or

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extremist, we need to be clearer. It is a basic principle of British

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legislation that you do not criticise people for what they

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think. What you do is different when it is about people who commit acts.

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In this case, this is one where free schools `` these schools in

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Birmingham, this one had the highest ratings of Ofsted and is now going

:21:21.:21:28.

to be taken into special measures, effectively taken into

:21:29.:21:31.

administration by the state. We don't know the facts. Moving onto

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the political, what happens now is you have two senior Cabinet

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figures, both of whom may be jockeying to replace David Cameron

:21:42.:21:47.

in the future. One of them is a former newspaper columnist. In all

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his years in politics, he has never lost his newspaper columnist

:21:56.:22:02.

instincts. He says staff to stir up the pot. He was great at that when

:22:03.:22:07.

he was at the times but he is a Minister of state, and he flies off

:22:08.:22:13.

half cocked now. It is education, it is a very serious portfolio and he

:22:14.:22:20.

is now in a conflict with Theresa May, and he may be exacerbating what

:22:21.:22:26.

is going on in the schools because now the entire nation's focus is on

:22:27.:22:29.

the schools and we don't know what has been going on. When you decide

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to free schools up, this is his big project, free schools, faith

:22:37.:22:41.

schools, the number of faith schools has shot up, and you decide what

:22:42.:22:45.

will be taught. He started this problem. The free schools started

:22:46.:22:54.

this problem. To me, it sounds like the core issue, the problem of

:22:55.:23:02.

extremism or whatever is overshadowed by a personality clash.

:23:03.:23:08.

You open any newspaper and it is mostly about May versus Michael Gove

:23:09.:23:17.

or vice versa. That is not it. The deeper existential problem is that

:23:18.:23:23.

of identifying extremism. Exactly. The really difficult problem, which

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has been a problem for years, has been what does a tolerant society do

:23:28.:23:34.

about people who preach things which are fundamentally intolerant? What

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do you do about that? Michael Gove has put his finger on that. His

:23:39.:23:43.

Cabinet colleague says he was slow on the uptake. That is interesting

:23:44.:23:49.

when you mention the tolerant society. I have always found Britain

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to be overcautious, not trying to get heavy with a sledgehammer when

:23:57.:24:01.

these problems occur. No other country let these problems fester

:24:02.:24:08.

for so long. Look at Abu Hamza, how long he was allowed to preach

:24:09.:24:14.

outside his mosque. Now in jail in the states. At the same time, when

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trees a stand`up and pretends to be the liberal in this... `` Theresa

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May. She is not a liberal. But she has presented herself. We are

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arresting more and more of young Muslims, and the anger is partly

:24:42.:24:45.

leading is a very difficult rob them, and

:24:46.:24:53.

Michael Gove, through freeing up education, has created part of it,

:24:54.:24:54.

but very unhelpful. What do you do about

:24:55.:25:06.

people who are the hate preachers? Whether it is Abu Hamza or people

:25:07.:25:12.

who are more subtle, what do you do? I would not have had them on the BBC

:25:13.:25:16.

as often as they were. They became more prominent because, especially

:25:17.:25:25.

Abu Hamza, you could not turn the radio on without hearing him

:25:26.:25:30.

ranting. Those are full offensive preachers have gone from the media

:25:31.:25:36.

now. What you have to do is put down guidelines. `` those terrible

:25:37.:25:41.

offensive preachers. You cannot hire people who insist on gender

:25:42.:25:45.

segregation at universities. That is not what they are about. That is

:25:46.:25:52.

what Theresa May is saying, she wants a mandatory code of conduct,

:25:53.:25:56.

not a voluntary one. She wants schools to be forced to follow a

:25:57.:26:01.

mandatory conduct. We have got a mandatory winding up because we have

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ran out of time. That is it for Dateline London for this week. You

:26:07.:26:11.

can contact us on Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye.

:26:12.:26:39.

lightning this morning. More to come this afternoon. Some of us who have

:26:40.:26:49.

not had the storms so far or the downpours, they could be on their

:26:50.:26:51.

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