14/06/2014 Dateline London

There is a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC

News, here is Dateline London with Gavin Esler and his guests.

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

Why has Iraq been such easy prey for the Islamist militants of ISIS?

How far does this group threaten the wider Middle East, and Europe?

And should British schools teach British values?

My guests today are Mina al Oraibi, Safak Timur of the BBC's Turkish

service, Jef McAllister who is an American writer and broadcaster

Not so long ago, under Saddam Hussein,

Iraq had what was reputed to be the fifth largest army in the world.

This week, faced with the Islamic militants

of ISIS, Iraqi soldiers turned and fled, allowing ISIS to occupy

The United States and Iran, unlikely allies you might think, both

suggested they might in different ways help the beleaguered government

of Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, but is the core of the problem that

Mr Maliki has alienated significant sections of Iraq's population

and proved himself an incompetent leader?

How do you see what has gone wrong? So many things have gone wrong.

Problems are coming to a head now. That really is what is happening.

You spoke about the Iraqi army and the fact they were freezing. They

weren't given the command to fight. `` for Liam. They were not fire

eating and then ran away. You had militant

they have fighter power. `` they were not fighting and then ran

away. It takes us back to back down. The Prime Minister and the

Government hold much of the responsibility for the failure to

protect their citizens. That is what the Government is meant to do.

Provide some security, at least, and they have not been able to provide

any. This year, killings were going up to 1000 civilians being killed

per month. Hardly reported. Now that there is the spectre of terrorism

and the fact it could be an Al`Qaeda related ISIS group, we have the US

speaking about this. But going back to back that and Nouri al`Maliki,

the reason he holds such responsibility is that he helped the

security files for the last few years. There is no defence minister.

No defence minister. The Minister of culture is acting defence minister.

There is no minister of interior. Basically Nouri al`Maliki has said

the security file is with him. So there are many questions about his

role. Not only have they failed in Mosul and other parts, they failed

over the last few years and no one was held to account. When we have

seen these people being recruited, we have heard about militias being

reformed and so on. Is it right to say that one of Nouri al`Maliki's

successes is that the Shia militias have not been completely disbanded,

they are effectively re`forming when there is a perfectly workable and

supposedly rather good army been given orders to fight. Is there a

militia problem? There will be a militia problem, but the reason it

has come about now is that for the last few days you have had senior

clerics, there was a call from a very revered cleric, a call for

people to take up arms and defend the holy sites of Iraq. There is

much concerned that the militias were, again.

It was a political decision to get involved in the political process as

they felt they could get something out of it and that is the difference

between a political decision to get involved in the political process as

they felt they could get something out of it and that is the difference

between other places. How far should we see this as a secretary and

fight? `` a sectarian fight. The way they medical system has been put in

Iraq and the way it has gone is that they have false pretences that they

say they have represented this sect or ethnicity. That is what seems to

work in terms of getting support outside of the country and within

the country. I don't believe that is what people for example in Mosul or

Basra. What they want is to be able to lead their lives. In Mosul,

checkpoints have been set up for years on end. It didn't keep people

safe, most people had not visited other relatives in the last few

years. Checkpoints have been taken out, why would you do that? That is

the problem, the fight is on the ground are savvy enough to know that

there are local grievances about day`to`day life, simple things, that

the Government refused to address. Listening to Barack Obama talking

about this, he really laid the blame on Nouri al`Maliki, didn't you? You

said this is not a security issue, this is a political problem. `` he

said. That makes a lot of sense from his point of view. To Barack Obama,

the Iraq war in some sense is the fact that the reason he hears

presence. His whole presidency, he has trying to manage it. `` his

presidency. The reasons you allude to, he thinks this is fundamentally

a political problem, that the US unleashed a huge set of political

problems because of a dumb invasion and a badly run occupation. He now

has to figure out what can I do that will contain terrorism? He doesn't

want it to happen on political reasons. He has to figure out he can

do, but he does not think you can solve the problem with the tools he

has that hand. He has a sophisticated understanding that

just because the US has the greatest hammer in the world, not all

problems are nails. This is a definite problem for politics. It is

the same problem that Americans faced in Vietnam. Huge strategic

interests depend upon the political direction of countries where there

is corruption and dissent. There probably will BS strikes, they will

be something to try to control this. ASH Mack the air strikes. There will

be a huge... Strange bedfellows, the Americans and Iranians. But feel

sorry for the people of Iraq. How was the scene from Turkey. Almost

100 people have been taken and they are still not in Turkey, we don't

know anything about them. The first priority for Turkey now is to get

their people out. Still it seems like they are in shock and they are

on the diplomatic level trying to get people out of Iraq safely. This

is the first priority. Behind this, we have the impression that the

governments seem unprepared about the upcoming events. Perhaps because

it was so quick. I think everybody knew there was a problem with ISIS,

but the fact that the Iraqi army appears to have collapsed or left

the battlefield, that presumably to Turkey by surprise. `` took Turkey.

Analysts were saying that we have been warning you about ISIS, that

they will turn against you, so they were warning the Government, saying

this is a danger coming. Keep it down. Leave the politics about

fuelling sectarian divisions. Ignoring all these warnings, they

can now say, see? William Hague could not have been clear, we are

basically not going to get involved. The Government has the problem with

Syria debate where they once led the way into trying to get intervention

and them were stopped by Parliament. I think that is in the background.

But this is a Government that is trying to define itself against the

Blair approach. A lot of people are seeing it through the prism of old

battles and it would help if everyone tried to `` if everybody

tried to stop fighting the war is over the past and see the reality of

now. The famous phrase from Colin Powell, if you break it, you own it,

there is some moral responsibility here, isn't there? There is no doubt

that the events of 2003 have led to this. If Saddam had stayed in power,

they would not have been an Arab Spring. `` there. I think it is

pointless to fight those battles. It is an issue that is very serious on

political terms and increasingly on humanitarian terms. What do you see

is happening next? A well`trained army, if it will probably lead and

giving orders, there aren't many people in ISIS. They could have

faced them. There is already talk that there are different groups in

control in Mosul. Remnants of the former Army, remember there are

people that were taking out from the Iraqi army that were never brought

back in. In addition to the fact that they disbanded the army. Many

army members want party members and they were disbanded. They have been

left for years. And we have had organised crime in Iraq. There is

organised crime. How many stories have we read about bank rates over

the last year? These people were buying arms and they were preparing

for a day like this to come. There are people fighting this. They have

a marriage of convenience with ISIS. I do not think it will last. I think

you will start to see infighting. The politicians in back that should

hopefully have the foresight, I do not know they do, to make an

outreach to those in Mosul, to the citizens and the leaders, and say,

come to Baghdad, tell us what your demands are and can we come to an

agreement? That is usual wishful thinking on my behalf. Blood will

not stop in Baghdad. Will it be too late? I think everyone has... The

politicians have lost out by what is happening now. They are discredited.

Willie government to be formed. `` we need. We need to wait for an

actual government. You have some gains being made, but they will not

hold its long if there are American strikes, especially. So they need a

deal if they want to not be overthrown entirely. There is a

moment now where there is not full blood, there is an eerie calm where

people don't know what happens next. This could be make or break. Does

anyone think that Iraq and the borders of the Middle East, that

this will be rewritten? That Iraq will cease to exist? It is hard to

avoid the conclusion that if the borders were different, perhaps the

conclusions would be different. It is not really... It should not be up

to the west to impose this, it should come out of political

solutions from the ground. Turkish people would be worried about that,

because of the Kurdish question, many who would like a homeland and

it affects Turkey and Iraq and Iran. For a while, Turkey is just having

negotiations with the Kurdish militant group in Turkey, fighting

with the government four years. Although the Turkish government

as elections are coming for a as elections are coming for a

general and presidential elections, but sooner or later, they will have

two solve the issue as all of the doubt developments `` all of the

developments in Syria and the region, the first thing they should

do is to make a settlement with the Kurdish militant group. And Do you

think your country could fall apart? Has it already fallen apart?

There are areas of Kurdish influence, Sunni areas which are out

of control of Baghdad. I think I have always refused to say that Iraq

could fall apart, but we could see it happening. What I fear is that

while the West can't decide this, there are those internationally

speaking saying, let's try to get a settlement with Iraq and Syria

together by redrawing borders. We have to remember that a lot of

civilians suffered, and is a resettlement decision was made, it

would not be clear in any way and it is not a solution. Do you ever

wonder why America has been so keen to Advanta rainy and foreign

policy? Perhaps the only winner out of this is Iran. I would also say

that Al`Qaeda is a winner in this. It is a mystery in some sense, but I

think that it is not mysterious if you look at the decision made by

George Bush. He was not thinking about enhancing Iranian influence at

the start of the Iraq war! This is not the way that Americans conceive

the problem. They had this thing about Iraq that came from the first

Gulf War and the strange George Bush fixation with Iraq. The fact that

all these consequences have flowed from what seems to them a simple

decision to fight terrorism, it is not in their imagination. So this is

one of those great imperial mistakes were a country, very rich and

powerful, shoots itself in the foot, or maybe other locations a

kind of arrogance and ignorance. And of course, many Americans have died,

and many other people in the region have suffered as a result, and I'm

afraid we don't see any clear path to getting this fixed.

The education Secretary Michael Gove has reacted to the row about alleged

is it extremist infiltration in some schools in Birmingham. The

allegations are so far improved. He announced that all schools should

promote British values. What on earth does he have in mind? Is this

a wise idea? Are there any British values? People in Scotland and

England may have different values, potentially. I think people in

neighbouring streets have different values. The idea of British news is

an absurd thing, a flag raised by politicians when they need to get

out of a hole. Gordon Brown started the search for the mythical

Britishness because he was a disliked Scottish Premier in London.

No Michael Gove is doing it for political reasons. It is absurd.

Everybody has their own set of values. They might be values of

democracy and freedom that go back to the Enlightenment, and you could

say that Voltaire was the person who defined British values. And he was

not British! There are British characteristics, but that is a

different thing, and it is a puerile search, the idea of British values.

Are the Turkish values? We were always making fun when politicians

say, let's do something based on Turkish values, we are citizens of a

country that is so complex. What are Turkish values? We have a very

strong sense of nationalism in Turkey, but what comes to my mind,

considering all these things that we have debated about radical Islamist

and, will this promote the sense of a negative portrayal of Muslim

people in Britain? That would be talking about shooting yourself in

the fight, that will be a disaster. Using some people worry about that?

It is a way of saying that either you subscribe to the following list

or you're not one of us? Maybe. I don't consider myself as a solid

believer in Islam, although I come from a muscle in country, but when

you are in a foreign country, you feel you are different, although

London doesn't make you feel that way, because it is so integrated,

all these differences. But yes, sometimes it makes me feel like

that. What do you make of this? I think that, with the fact that

British values are being raised in response of the so`called Islamist

extremist threat, that should be treated as a legal problem. You can

go into any school, whatever they are trying to teach them, and not be

sticking to the curriculum and the laws of what people are taught. It

should be treated as a criminal issue. If standards are not good

enough, it is not about criminal activity. It should be regulated.

That is a completely different conversation. British values, I

think there are British characteristics, and when I lived in

Washington, there was a side of me that suddenly felt was that did not

feel that before! Now that I and here I feel more erratic! `` Iraqi.

And American values? It is a phrase that politicians in various cultures

use, often when they are in trouble. And it changes over time. Martin

Luther King was considered a dangerous communist by the powers

that be when he was active, and he is now considered an exemplar of the

best of American values by most Americans. These things are not

static. There is a dog whistle quality to the Michael Gove

discussion of which values, trying to appeal to UKIP voters, standing

up for Britain in a different sense. In Europe, this is more complicated

than it is in the US, which is multiethnic by definition, but in

France, with the National front or Golden Dorn, what are Greek values,

what are French values? There is an ethnicity combines with a set of

beliefs that can become dangerous or toxic or off`putting to those who

have come in by a different route, and it is perhaps intended to. I do

not think Michael Gove is like that, although he did say that there is

something rather British about what is trying to define what is British.

Now he is in government, it is different! It is important for

Britain. This is a complex thing, a legal problem, and intelligence

problem. How do you separate out possible extremists who are growing

up in British cities, in neighbourhoods where they are not

allowed to leave because of racism. You can develop a sense that you are

not part of Britain in places like this. Talking about democracy and

fair play, tolerance, those are good things, but you have to make sure

you do it in a way that does not make people feel excluded. If there

is a British value, it is the fact that you do not try to define

British values, because British is a complex fuzzy idea, and the

constitution is written, it is a fuzzy constitution, and that is what

Britishness is. But with you accept that there clearly is a problem with

some people feeling that, in schools, they are learning stuff

that is off the curriculum? Absolutely. But what about people

with certain extremist views? Let me put it another way. Are we too

tolerant of people who are fundamentally intolerant and to

encourage others to do violence, even if they themselves do not? If

they are inciting violence, that is a criminal action. It is clear cut.

If they have views that are unpalatable, it is British that they

should be able to hold them, and we have been a home for a long time for

people seeking asylum, and long may that last. There is a whiff of is a

phobia about this, and studies have shown that the most patriotic people

in this country are Islamic immigrants from Pakistan. They are

the most patriotic group in this country and there is a danger here

that it is driving a wedge. It should not be encouraged. You put

your finger on something important, people value freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech at its core is not necessarily about talking, but about

listening to people that you dislike and disagree with. Is that something

that you see as quite fundamental here? I might not say it would be

lost, but there is a danger that, if a politician is saying that, let's

keep British values, in a country full of Muslim believers, what does

that mean in practice for all these Muslim students in those schools?

Are they going to be eliminated as potential members of an Islamist

group? What will they feel in the face of all these practical things?

Is there a whiff of Islamophobia in some of this debate? Yes, but there

is also intimidation for pay`per`view do not have courage and

have not been raised in homes where you are encouraged to raise your

voice and question how things are done. That is why school is so

important, because if you are coming from that background, from whatever

ground, you could be having some sort of trouble at home and unable

to Express your views, schools should provide that, especially if

it is a state school. That is why this issue is important. Thank you

very much. That is it for Dateline London this week. We are back next

week at the same time. You can contact us on Twitter. Thank you for

watching. Goodbye.