19/07/2014 Dateline London

does the world reacted to the shooting down of the Malaysia

Airlines plane? Israel and its battle in Gaza. And we are left to

digests the Cabinet reshuffle. These are my guests.

Welcome to all of you. Let's start with the horrific downing of the

Malaysia Airlines plane in which 298 people lost their lives. How could

this have happened? There are options, and all of these options

should not be written off at this stage, but it seems they have been.

It seems the culprit has been named and fingers pointed, and I think

that is not a very wise way to go about the situation of something so

sensitive and tragic. Are you saying that is not what happened? I don't

know. I don't seem to have the confidence that other people seem to

have, including President Obama, coming out and saying that it is the

Russian rebels, but we will mount an investigation. Maybe the

investigation should come first. With the evidence pointing towards

the rebel, what would your thoughts be? It is not inconceivable that it

was them, but it is not inconceivable either that it might

have been a Ukrainian Buk missile. We know that in 2001 a Russian

passenger plane was brought down by mistake by Ukrainian anti`aircraft

defence. These things do happen. The most recent two planes that have

been brought down have been Ukrainian military transport

carriers, and presumably this was mistaken for a military transport

carrier from Ukraine. Why should Ukraine shoot down its own plane

even by mistake? These are preposterous allegations, desperate

allegations coming out of Moscow. The idea that we got dumbfounded

silence from most world leaders for the first day because it was just an

astonishing event and the diplomatic results are so serious, and the only

comment we got was a babble of hysterical accusations on Moscow. On

the one hand they were saying this was done by the Ukrainians, and even

if it was not done by the Ukrainians, they have responsibility

because it happened in their airspace. I thought the whole

dispute was about who is a space it should be. Does this part of Ukraine

belong to Russia or if it is a plain that goes down there it is the

responsibility of Ukraine. It is very well the Kremlin is criticising

those who point fingers but they are doing the same to Ukraine. They say

Ukraine is responsible for what is happening in the territory, which is

audacious when this part is controlled by pro`Russian

separatists. The frightening thing is that there was the capability.

Absolutely. What is really worrying is we are at the stage where

everybody is pointing fingers. You saw the security council meeting

when you had the ambassadors facing off. This is a risk to all of us.

This is a time when you say, where is the international leadership? We

need to stop and allowed the investigation to happen. Where is

Russia's leveraged on the separatists, telling them it is

their responsibility to protect the area. Surely they want to protect

the result. They would surely put pressure on the separatists not to

block the investigation. Does President Putin have any leveraged

at all with these separatists? He has some. He urged them not to hold

the referenda on independence, they did not listen. The statement that

came out of Moscow was not pointing the finger at Kiev in terms of it

being them that shocked the missile, the statement was that they bear

responsibility for the military action that has taken place in the

area, and Russia has been campaigning for weeks for cease`fire

there. But we know the Russians supplied sophisticated military

technology to a bunch of trigger`happy cowboys they cannot

control. Do we know that? Do they not admit to that? I have not seen

that. They are playing a double game. They are giving the impression

they are watching their hands of any claim to eastern Ukraine but at the

same time they are encouraging the rebels to hold key positions and

desert other positions in order to assert control over this part of

Ukraine. Will this be a game changer in the eyes of the world? What will

it change? It is a game changer because everybody realises now the

stakes and the idea you cannot brush it off and say, if Russia has

eastern Ukraine, we will come to an accommodation. There can be no

accommodation because of the escalation. In terms of the impact,

it cannot be just about imposing new sanctions, it has to be thinking

about the fact that all over the world there are militants wetting

their hands on extremely sophisticated weaponry, at a pace

that states cannot control `` getting their hands. You have to ask

the question about Moscow's stated intention, which is this claim on

eastern Ukraine, I know you will hate me saying this but this is not

unlike the German claim on the Sudetenland. These ethnic Russians

want to be part of their homeland and we are going in. It has to be

taken into account. Wherever the so`called international community,

although I would refer to it as an international community, has been

meddling, we have had one disaster after another, starting with

Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya, aged. `` aged. Roger tried to invade

Afghanistan as well, I remember. We should not remember that `` not

forget the weakness in the White House has played a role in what is

happening. It started with Syria, the line was crossed, and President

Obama refrained from intervening. Giving such clout to President Putin

led to what is happening in the Ukraine. What about the flight path

of that plane? Given that some airlines had decided... British

Airways. Theoretically they were not doing anything wrong, but what do

you think of that? For so many airlines, cost is the number one

driver. If you rewrote, it is a longer flight. `` the route. If you

know there is a possibility, what do you do? Then again, we have planes

going over all sorts of areas, Iraq, Libya. It should not be left to the

airlines to decide. The aviation authority should have told airlines

not to fly over. The irony is Malaysia Airlines is probably going

to go out of business. It is not a very clever business plan in terms

of saving money. I know that British Airways and the Russian airlines

have not been flying over that area. And they know why. Let's leave

that discussion there and move on to the next topic, which is the battle

between is the battle between Israeli ground forces and

Palestinian militants, raging on. Hundreds of people are now dead.

Cease`fires have been called from everywhere but still the bombs and

rockets fly and peace looks a very long way off. Why does a mass not

stop firing? `` Hamas. Because Palestine is occupied. This is

bigger than Hamas firing rockets and Israel reacting. The situation

before this ground incursion was still dire. In June there was a

possibility of a Palestinian government being formed, and Hamas

was part of that government, and for a moment, people thought this was

possibly a way to get Hamas away from their extremist stands and come

into the political full, but of course, that fell apart. Israel was

immediately against that government, they wondered what it meant for the

Israeli government that absolutely reject that. This is not a battle

that is equal between Hamas and Israel. Gaza is being pounded every

day, civilians are being killed. That is the point, civilians are

being `` suffering. That is the point, they are stuck in Gaza with

nowhere to go. We have heard calls for them to be evacuated but where

do they go? The idea that this can be solved militarily is impossible.

There could be a political solution, there is no military solution but

Gaza is now an overcrowded refugee camp. We have to remember that

Israel withdrew voluntarily with great political resistance from its

own people. They with true at which point, Gaza became a refugee camp

which Hamas now controls and which uses as a military base to fire off

rockets. How can it be a refugee camp? It is their land. It is a

prison. We have to remember how it started. Israel withdrew from Gaza

nine years ago, and from the first day, Hamas has turned it into an

arsenal and a network of underground tunnel, but remember how it started,

whatever happened in the West Bank became a sideshow but it happened

that Hamas joined the resistance in the West Bank after the killing of

teenagers on both sides in order to seize an opportunity to break the

equation. They felt isolated, and they thought by flaring up the

situation they could break the deadlock. Israel has offered them

things and they have refused to accept. Last year `` last week

Israel accepted the Egyptian proposal. Some of them said things,

but what choice has been left for Israel if not to retaliate against

1700 rockets and missiles? What about the civilians? It is nothing

to do with this, it is not proportionate, if Israel did not

have the defence system then thousands would be killed, what

would we say then? Israel has a responsibility not to be killing

civilians indiscriminately. Of course not, but what do they do?

Defending Palestinians is not defending Hamas. If you put rocket

launchers in civilian neighbourhoods, you're putting your

civilians at risk, which does not do. I am hearing the argument about

Ukraine and the situation is almost mirrored. Kiev is conducting this

military operation against eastern Ukraine, and here we are getting

pretty much the same thing. One site employs overwhelming force against

the other which has nothing to respond with. The number of

missiles, two people killed. This is a joke. But they are able to protect

their civilian population. Let us look at the bigger picture. What

about the international response? John Kerry, his plans have gone.

That was a desperate move because he had the rug pulled out under him on

Syria. He had a thunderous position to destabilise President a sad, and

at the last moment, President Obama pooled the rug out from him. His

only hope was to broker peace between Palestine and Israel. Good

luck. That has gone down the plan because it is an impossible

situation. The initiative has failed so far and cease`fire does not look

on the horizon, and one reason is there are two countries meddling in

the Middle East and trying to exert influence on Hamas not to accept any

initiative, these are Turkey and Qatar. Qatar is supporting a

terrorist organisation. Turkey, led by a half crazy Prime Minister, is

also encouraging us not to accept initiative from Cairo. Who does have

influence? Influence over what? There is so much politics here. The

Palestinians are victims, and a lot of the Israelis are also victims, so

we agree with that. However, on the ground, who has influenced to stop

the killing? The deaths, the injuries, people will suffer for

years. Electricity and water are cut. This idea that you are going to

knock on your roof within a minute to leave your house and everything

you have, the bigger picture, there needs to be serious international

efforts to end this occupation. They have tried, haven't they? America is

losing interest. It will become independent in terms of oil

production, and it is now washing its hands of the region. This

contentious area is no problem as there is any more, which is

appalling, because America is the only superpower left with any moral

authority. Does President Obama have that will? There is no evidence on

the ground of that. I was just wondering half jokingly about when

President Putin were coming to resolve the situation as he did in

Syria. God help us. The Palestinian authority, they have accepted the

Egyptian proposal for a cease`fire, and her mouth again said no. ``

Hamas. They are doing their utmost to cause victims. Every time

Palestinian civilians... It is a propaganda coup. Israel banned

foreign journalists, but this time, they are actually there, and we are

actually there, and we're seeing it on our propaganda, it is a reality.

I'm not saying it is a lie, but it is useful for Hamas and Fatah there

is a great deal of citizens in this game. They say Israel is responsible

for shooting down the Malaysia Airlines to distract from the

conflict. Let's come back here to the UK. The big news here was David

Cameron extensively reshuffle in his cabinet. Some say he now has his

dream team for the next general election, but others say the line`up

is more Eurosceptic and may herald another step on the road for Britain

to withdraw from the European Union. What do you make of it? This could

be his string team because it is more Eurosceptic. It is certainly a

team that has been devised to win an election. I thought the most

annoying thing about it was the importation of all of these women. I

don't mind that. We need more women ministers, but it was done so

obviously as a publicity stunt, and they were briefed so heavily and a

child so heavily that by the time it happens, it was an anti`climax. ``

they trailed it so heavily. It looks as if this is all about image, which

is wrong with Cameron from the start. What sort of influence you

think it will have with these women? I don't think we can insult British

intelligence that having more women will make people think it is a more

inclusive government, I think the Eurosceptics part is important,

because this is an election that Conservatives will fight with UKIP

in mind rather than two years ago when they are thinking labour

primarily and then the Lib Dems. By Mike it was to fight UKIP. What does

Labour do? At the moment, they are trying to save these are our

policies. We're not about image. If they are smart about bringing a

better policy, voters can see the difference. I do think David Cameron

and the Conservatives have realised everything in the press shows they

need to have more than just pretty faces. Every reshuffle in politics

is a joke. I remember Bazar reshuffles when Margaret Thatcher

was Prime Minister. `` bizarre. Then she would chop heads one after the

another. The Foreign Minister after the international community has

gotten used to him, has been sent home. Then another Defence Minister.

What for? The third Defence Minister within four years. I don't see much

logic in what is happening except that it is so transparent that David

Cameron is preparing a team for the next election in order to win votes.

Does that worry other countries in the region that perhaps there is

more election focus then is to focus? I don't beget makes much

difference to brush off. `` I don't think it makes much difference to

brush off. It may be something that Russia might want to look at with

interest because if London's relationship with the EU suffers as

a result, that may objectively, cynically perhaps, play into

Moscow's Cairns. In what we? `` in what we? It made define their

interests more clearly. Some are against worsening relationships with

Russia, and others are for. There is a radical line and a more

constructive line. It is difficult to talk about this at this point. It

is very emotional. But there is no way we can isolate one another.

Russia has been claiming that Ukraine's flirtation with the EU has

caused this trouble, so therefore presumably if people peel off from

the EU, including major powers like Britain, Russia would be sympathetic

to that idea just on the divide and rule basis, but I do not think that

will help, because Britain will be justice and pathetic to the Ukraine

out of the EU as it is in it. Do you think Britain is heading out of the

EU? That is impossible to say. Foley at? No. I think it will renegotiate

some second order status. `` fully out? But not the full political

membership. I think that is probably the direction. Scotland may be

independent in September. Is Britain out of the EU seen as weak then

within the EU? I think it depends where. America have made it clear

that the `` UK in the EU is more important is and I lie. `` as an

ally. On the other hand, in the Middle East, people look to the UK

as the UK rather than part of the EU. It depends where you are talking

about, but to raise a point, William Hague living at this moment was not

a good thing for the British government. He is a leader in the

Commons and will play any full Winchell role within the

Conservative Party, but David Cameron will have been well advised

to keep him considering he had all the important relationships with all

of the shifting sands around us. `` play an influential bowl. `` wall.

You don't want it to seem as though it is all hard power. He has been

rather introduced in the last few months by political commentators on

the Tory side for having no foreign policy. The government has no

foreign policy. It is not the former Defence Minister's fault. Nor does

the EU. They are all just withdrawing from the world in saying

it is domestic squabbles we are all about now. Vinyl floor? `` final

thought? There is no way that Russia and the rest of the world or

international community can be as Slater from each other. We have to

look at this difficult moment and tragic moment and look towards the

future. I'm afraid that was the last word, because we are out of time.

Thank you. Think you to all of the guests to day. Join me again next

week at the same time for more dateline. Goodbye.

Let's get you up`to`date with all of this stormy weather. For some

others, it was round two of the storms. Some others did not get as

many as we had the other night. The warning from the Met Office as far

as the intensity of the rain is still very much with us for today.

Hot air across France has spawned all of the storms. You can see them

drifting out from the south. Another way