Browse content similar to 26/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello I am Maxine Mawhinney and welcome to Dateline. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
This week my guests and I will discuss: | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
The continuing crisis in the Middle East. | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
Sanctions against Russia over Ukraine. | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
And how to cope with that global scourge, female genital mutilation. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
My guests are Ned Temko, writer and broadcaster, | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Marc Roche from France's Le Monde, Maria Margaronis from The Nation and | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
Abdel Barri Atwan, a distinguished writer on Arab affairs. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Let's start in the Middle East where a fragile ceasfire between Israel | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
and the militants in Gaza is in place, but just for a few hours. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
You have family still living in Gaza city, can you tell us something | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
about what has happened to them during this last two weeks? | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
It is hell. I have family, brothers, sisters, nephews and | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
nieces. I do not know who is dead and who is alive, I did not have | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
enough sleep for the last two weeks because overtime houses are | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
flattened, bombardment everywhere. The Israelis are bombing Gaza from | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
the sea, from the air and from the ground. Every hour there is a child | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
killed. This is the only war on earth without refugees because the | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
problem is that the borders are seals, people cannot run for their | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
lives. I am really hollered five `` horrified to see the bodies of | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
children everywhere. This cease`fire children everywhere. This cease`fire | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
is to evacuate the people who are still under the rubble. We have | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
about 1000 people killed until now, every hour there is a child killed. | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
Hospitals are full of dead bodies. Also they are full of injured people | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
and there is no medical supplies. The borders are sealed, not enough | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
doctors. The whole of Gaza is a morgue. You cannot tell... There is | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
no safe place at all, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
thousands are completely homeless. You know... Paralysed people. Their | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
house was bombed. A school. United Nations school. People took great | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
future, they thought the flag of the United Nations could protect them | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
from the bombardment. It was bombed. I do not know. It is really hell. I | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
did not sleep for the last two weeks. We have never seen something | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
like this, and why? There is no reason for it. Israel says Hamas, is | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
firing rockets into southern Israel. I will tell you something, the West, | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
and the Israeli consider Hamas, as a terrorist organisation, they did not | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
kill a single Israeli civilian, why, whereas civilised Israel is killing | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
children! We have 250 children, and killed by the Israeli bombardment, | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
imagine Hamas, the terrorist organisation, killing only Israeli | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
soldiers, and Israelis, the civilised, the only democracy in the | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
Middle East are killing children. This is the difference. Hamas | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
missiles did not kill a single Israeli, nobody is talking about the | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
Israeli missiles, the Israelis raids. Against Gaza. Just one | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
minute, Gaza, it is 150 square miles, 2 million people are living | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
there. Even if you throw a stone, you will kill someone. It is the | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
most densely populated area in the world. Imagine shelling from sea and | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
air. What kind... I do not know. I am shocked. We are talking about | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
diplomacy, a lot of diplomacy going around. Will it work, given the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
relations between the sides, how bad it has become? I cannot hold out a | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
lot of hope for diplomacy and I hope we get a cease`fire because this is | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
catastrophic. Until the underlying issues begin to be solved. I am | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
wondering whether this could begin to be a turning point. Where people | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
begin to see how untenable the situation is, we have talked about | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
war crimes prosecution for Israel from the United Nations which is | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
long do you. `` it is long due. We have the recognition, when you see | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
children killed in hospitals and schools, people begin to recognise, | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
not only that this is appalling and horrifying. But that it is | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
destructive, not only for the people, the Palestinians and Gaza, | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
but also in the end for Israel itself and for the chance of peace, | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
and also Jewish people outside Israel, you cannot live with this | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
kind of... Crime really. Indefinitely. The question for me, | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
will the kid gloves with which Israel has been treated, | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
particularly by the United States which has vetoed United Nations | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
resolutions begin to come off? The diplomacy moves to Paris this | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
weekend. Given that John Kerry has not quite succeeded with what he | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
wanted, is it the role now, the Europeans to take a bigger stand? I | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
think so, I think Europe, proximity with the geography with the Middle | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
East and the case of France, it is very important on the streets, | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
outside Paris, and in the suburbs which have 6 million Muslim, French. | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
Who feel very strongly about what is going on. 500,000 Jewish people. And | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
we have seen in France a lot of problems in the street. And the | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
authorities are very worried. If there is one hope it will be for | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
once Europe, and not a problem of Europe, because they are divided, | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
the British seem to side with Israel, France is quite on the whole | :06:36. | :06:45. | |
neutral. The public opinion is, at the moment, living with | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
Islamophobia. We have seen from the European elections, it pushed | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
government who considered Hamas, a terrorist organisation, more than an | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Islamic organisation. The government are being careful. Maria mentioned | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
the phrase kid gloves in relation to the way the United States has | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
handled this. We know about the vote situation in the United States. Why | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
would President Obama not come out more strongly? I am not sure we want | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
to go down this road, I do not buy a notion that you imply, that there is | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
some sort of great Jewish lobby. There is a historic affinity and a | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
propensity among Americans who are not Jewish, who may live in the | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
Middle West, if you put in front of them who is a natural ally, the | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
instinctive answer would be to say Israel, it has nothing to do with | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
dark machinations. To get what really matters, the conflict, I | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
would briefly three things. One. We are friends. I don't want to turn | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
this into a proxy conflict. You say by implication poor Hamas, they have | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
not killed any Israeli civilians, which is not true, they have. They | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
have. Again, this is not the issue. It is not for lack of trying. This | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
is not happening in a vacuum. Without taking Israel's side, | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
because I have great misgivings which I will get to, about all sides | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
of the conflict. You have do recognise this is not like | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Luxembourg and Belgium all of a sudden deciding let's kill | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
civilians... There is a difficult situation and a tough neighbourhood | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
involving an organisation, Hamas, without getting into labels, their | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
charter says they want to destroy the state of Israel, it is not | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
happening in a vacuum. No human being can look at the TV screens as | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
we have for the last 18 days and not be appalled by the depth of the | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
suffering, by what he says is the lack of the ability for ordinarily | :09:08. | :09:17. | |
would`be refugees to run anywhere. If you knew nothing about this | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
conflict, the normal human response which I share and I think is the | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
proper response, is for God sake, stop this. It is horrible. And both | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
sides have a responsibility to do that. The other thing I would say, | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
longer term answers, this is not the first time this has happened. We | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
know where it will end, there will be a cease`fire. But we cannot bring | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
back the 800, maybe 1000 people who have lost their lives. On either | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
side. This is a symptom of terrible abject failure by all sides, over a | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
period of years, to pursue seriously the one negotiated outcome that | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
could just... It just might, and it is tough to be less optimistic over | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
the years, that could provide a long`term solution. That is the | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
secure Israel accepted by its neighbours, living side`by`side with | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
a secure independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, for the | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
Palestinians. On that very strong note we will leave that topic and | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
move on. Thank you for your contributions, it is always | :10:41. | :10:41. | |
difficult. Now let's move to the Ukraine where | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
the situation between Russian separatists and the government | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
in Kiev remains critical and the west particularly US sanctions | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
against Russia begin to bite. Are sanctions against Russia | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
counterproductive and how can Russia Let's say what the Russian... Royal | :10:53. | :11:12. | |
Dutch Shell, it is very close to them in the Arctic, they are from | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
the country where the plane... And you have BP, 20% of the company. You | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
would say the Russian, and you have the French banks and the engineering | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
in German. You would say the Russian have a marvellous reprise all | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
potential. They don't. Because they need the companies investment `` | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
reprisal. To modernise the energy Department. Which is old and it | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
needs investment. The Russians have no arms except the verbal threat. | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
That is why we should not taken seriously, we should apply | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
sanctions. We are hearing from the Russian Foreign Ministry today, the | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
European Union has practically speaking put at risk international | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
cooperation in the area of security. What do you make of that? Actually | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
it is a very dangerous situation because if you corner Russia, they | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
will react. Here, it could be devastating for the whole of Europe. | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
Sanctions are not going to work. Russia lived more than eight years | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
under sanctions and they managed to survive. Now we're actually pushing | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
Putin to be very radicalised and use all of his guards against Europe, | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
who pays the price, Ukraine and the Europeans. The European firms will | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
suffer because of this. Self`defeating? You are talking | :12:40. | :12:51. | |
about 200 people. Until now we do not have any evidence the Russians | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
or the rebels actually downed this jet. Of course. It could be by | :12:55. | :13:06. | |
mistake. It didn't matter because they have the weapons. It is | :13:07. | :13:18. | |
Russia's fault. Americans shoot down Iranian aeroplane in 1984. They | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
said, no, for eight years and in the end they paid $62 million | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
compensation. It does happen. What I'm against is sanctions against | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
Iran, Russia, against career. Why? `` against North Korea. Who is | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
suffering in Ukraine, Ukrainian people, their country will be | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
dismembered. Who is paying? Russia is a rogue state. Who is paying for | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
this crisis, the Europeans, they are paying for Ukraine and the sanction. | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
We need to talk and reach a solution. In the Ukraine we have a | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
civil war situation, it is more complex than we understand. There | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
are Russian speakers, we have got this government in Kiev which, the | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
Prime Minister has resigned, it has been problematic. | :14:23. | :14:24. | |
Prime Minister has resigned, it has There was the building, with the | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
Russians in it which was burned, terrible things have been done on | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
both sides. What worries me, and I agree with you, we are in a | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
dangerous situation because we are getting a new Cold War hysteria | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
whipped up. Looking at the British tabloids, I was reading the daily | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
Mirror and the Daily Mail, there is stuff about Putin the devil. He is a | :14:44. | :14:54. | |
tyrant, there is no democracy. Listing which country in Europe is | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
the most lily livered, we have to be careful, Putin's popularity has | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
soared over the issue. If we want to do any good for the people of | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
Ukraine and Russia, we should not go on like elephants, we need to be | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
more thoughtful. What is the universal fear of Vladimir Putin | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
that makes countries think. It is not a fear of Putin, it is economic, | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
real politic, the Europeans have a lot of economic concerns in terms of | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
mostly energy dependency. Instinctively, I hate to say on the | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
one hand, on the other hand, I was living in the Soviet Union, in | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
Moscow, in 1983 when the Soviets by mistake shot down a Korean airliner. | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
31 years ago, my God, I am old! CHUCKLES | :15:52. | :16:00. | |
I remember writing and thinking, when watching Vladimir Putin handled | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
this. This is as much a psychological as a political | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
problem. Basically, this is their lives `` this is very Soviet, he is | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
a KGB thug, you say we are bringing back the Cold War, this is not a | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
post`Soviet leader. Putin is a Soviet president. But I would see | :16:25. | :16:35. | |
this as an opportunity and I know it is delicate. The Russians feel | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
ashamed on some level, they feel guilty on some level. They try to | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
pretend it was someone else's fault, but they know it was an | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
accidental missile strike by rebels which the Russians gave arms too. It | :16:57. | :17:12. | |
is a rogue state. I do not think sanctions will work. European | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
sanctions are unlikely to happen. It is a more serious problem. I think | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
if you ask, what is the best outcome? It is to get a situation | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
where Vladimir Putin is given space to pull back... White is the British | :17:31. | :17:42. | |
Government not finishing the oligarch? They are beginning to | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
freeze their assets. They are not, he has not done it and it is because | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
all these people bring money here and the city makes money. We want | :17:54. | :18:07. | |
Russian respect for us. I agree. If it is a bully state, why should we | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
give Vladimir Putin the ammunition? Why should we provoke him so he can | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
be a security problem for the whole of Europe. I am going to be forceful | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
and move on to our next topic. We are going to put sanctions in | :18:29. | :18:29. | |
place! This week an international | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
conference in London focused on female genital mutilation | :18:35. | :18:36. | |
and some progress was made. David Cameron says | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
his government will now prosecute parents who submit | :18:40. | :18:41. | |
their daughters to this abuse. At the same time the Isis group | :18:42. | :18:43. | |
of fighters in Iraq's city of Mosul say they are going to force all | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
girls to be cut. Barri just how many girls | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
are involved here? At least 4 million between the age | :18:50. | :19:06. | |
of 11 and 16 because that is the age for this circumcision. But ISIS are | :19:07. | :19:18. | |
not cutting the genital part. This is the last thing they are talking | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
about. This is not part of the culture of Iraq, Syria and Jordan. | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
It is a practice taking place in the Horn of Africa, Egypt and Saddam. Is | :19:32. | :19:45. | |
it another sense of control? What is it? We were surprised to hear that. | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
But through my own experience and the study of that part of the world, | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
it is not part of the culture of Iraq or Syria. I think there could | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
be a misunderstanding and I think the United Nations could be trapped | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
in this. But it is brutal. ISIS is more brutal. They execute people, | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
they hang them, they stone women to death if they commit adultery. But | :20:16. | :20:23. | |
it is working in this country. I have been living in the last 13 | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
years here. The Egyptian community and the Sudanese practised it. But | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
nobody can do it. They cannot even take their daughters to Egypt or | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
Somalia in order to have this kind of genital cutting. But it is | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
happening in other countries. There is a question about the accuracy of | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
that report about ISIS saying that. It is one of those things that goes | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
out over the Internet and it is not at all clear that report is | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
accurate. We do know it does happen here. 137,000 cases. This conference | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
is extremely welcome and it is important that this is discussed | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
openly. It is difficult to bear to think about this. But there is | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
something about it all so that I find slightly worrying. It made me | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
slightly concerned to see Theresa May the Home Secretary saying we | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
have to protect girls from this terrible scourge when women are | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
claiming asylum here for themselves and their daughters on the basis of | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
the threat of FGM are often not granted asylum, particularly the | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
case of a woman from the Gambia who is the daughter of a woman who was | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
an FGM practitioner in her community and who left the Gambia because when | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
her mother died she would be forced to take up this role and she refused | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
it. She was detained for five months in the aisles would where we know | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
there is a lot of abuse, and she still has not got asylum. The | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
Government needs to check what his left and right hand is doing. FGM | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
has been illegal since 1985 and we need to think about our policy | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
towards women coming from abroad. Do you think the British Government's | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
thoughts and moods will reflect on to other governments? You are right. | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
In a way one of the most positive things about the conference was that | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
it raised the issue and it is the kind of thing that is talked about | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
much too infrequently. Often with issues like this merely putting them | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
on the agenda, this happen to landmines and lots of issues, once | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
it becomes part of the intellectual dialogue at these conferences, the | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
likelihood is something will happen not just here. I think you are right | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
the problem is joined up Government to use that terrible phrase. So | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
far, so good. Cameron taking the lead, putting it on the agenda, but | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
it is the practical edge. Targeting the parents as well. It is not only | :23:15. | :23:23. | |
do parents, but the doctors. I know doctors are practising these crimes | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
behind doors and there is some understanding. But now because of | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
the British Government putting pressure on criminalising this, now | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
parents cannot take their children to other countries to have it done. | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
In France they prosecute? Absolutely and it is a big crime. And they | :23:43. | :23:51. | |
prosecute the doctors? And they prosecute the doctors, they cannot | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
register or practice. Not only is the conference fantastic, but you | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
need to spend money on education in these communities. Very often these | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
communities are left out of the mainstream education system, they | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
are quite poor. There is a big financial effort for education. What | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
about coming up against the cultural aspects of it? Some women accept it | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
is part of their culture. That is where an education programme would | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
help. I mix with Somalis and Egyptians. The new generation is | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
saying a big no to this practice. They are revolting against this | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
practice. It is not Islamic, amoral and inhuman. They even say we are | :24:42. | :24:50. | |
not going with our families to Somalia or Egypt or Sudan or other | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
countries. If there is anything like this done, they report it. We have a | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
rebellion amongst the community. We know in general things that help | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
women all over the world Art education and economic development. | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
To empower them both sexually, personally, economically, that is | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
the most important thing. Prosecution is necessary as well. | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
Does it drive it underground? There is always that risk, but you cannot | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
say I am not going to prosecute because it will go underground. It | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
is a terrible thing to do to anybody. Thank you to all of my | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
guests today for discussing some pretty heavy topics. That is all | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
from us for this week. We are back next week at the same time. From all | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
of us, goodbye. Although southern areas will hold | :25:46. | :26:16. | |
onto the sunshine, it looks like cooler and pressure conditions will | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
move down from the north and the West. Scattered showers will push | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
down maybe longer spells of rain and it will turn cooler. The reason is | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
because | :26:32. | :26:32. |