26/07/2014 Dateline London


26/07/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello I am Maxine Mawhinney and welcome to Dateline.

:00:23.:00:27.

This week my guests and I will discuss:

:00:28.:00:29.

The continuing crisis in the Middle East.

:00:30.:00:31.

Sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.

:00:32.:00:36.

And how to cope with that global scourge, female genital mutilation.

:00:37.:00:40.

My guests are Ned Temko, writer and broadcaster,

:00:41.:00:45.

Marc Roche from France's Le Monde, Maria Margaronis from The Nation and

:00:46.:00:48.

Abdel Barri Atwan, a distinguished writer on Arab affairs.

:00:49.:00:50.

Let's start in the Middle East where a fragile ceasfire between Israel

:00:51.:00:57.

and the militants in Gaza is in place, but just for a few hours.

:00:58.:01:01.

You have family still living in Gaza city, can you tell us something

:01:02.:01:07.

about what has happened to them during this last two weeks?

:01:08.:01:11.

It is hell. I have family, brothers, sisters, nephews and

:01:12.:01:19.

nieces. I do not know who is dead and who is alive, I did not have

:01:20.:01:24.

enough sleep for the last two weeks because overtime houses are

:01:25.:01:31.

flattened, bombardment everywhere. The Israelis are bombing Gaza from

:01:32.:01:34.

the sea, from the air and from the ground. Every hour there is a child

:01:35.:01:42.

killed. This is the only war on earth without refugees because the

:01:43.:01:45.

problem is that the borders are seals, people cannot run for their

:01:46.:01:51.

lives. I am really hollered five `` horrified to see the bodies of

:01:52.:01:53.

children everywhere. This cease`fire children everywhere. This cease`fire

:01:54.:01:58.

is to evacuate the people who are still under the rubble. We have

:01:59.:02:03.

about 1000 people killed until now, every hour there is a child killed.

:02:04.:02:09.

Hospitals are full of dead bodies. Also they are full of injured people

:02:10.:02:13.

and there is no medical supplies. The borders are sealed, not enough

:02:14.:02:18.

doctors. The whole of Gaza is a morgue. You cannot tell... There is

:02:19.:02:25.

no safe place at all, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of

:02:26.:02:31.

thousands are completely homeless. You know... Paralysed people. Their

:02:32.:02:37.

house was bombed. A school. United Nations school. People took great

:02:38.:02:42.

future, they thought the flag of the United Nations could protect them

:02:43.:02:45.

from the bombardment. It was bombed. I do not know. It is really hell. I

:02:46.:02:52.

did not sleep for the last two weeks. We have never seen something

:02:53.:02:57.

like this, and why? There is no reason for it. Israel says Hamas, is

:02:58.:03:06.

firing rockets into southern Israel. I will tell you something, the West,

:03:07.:03:12.

and the Israeli consider Hamas, as a terrorist organisation, they did not

:03:13.:03:20.

kill a single Israeli civilian, why, whereas civilised Israel is killing

:03:21.:03:25.

children! We have 250 children, and killed by the Israeli bombardment,

:03:26.:03:29.

imagine Hamas, the terrorist organisation, killing only Israeli

:03:30.:03:35.

soldiers, and Israelis, the civilised, the only democracy in the

:03:36.:03:38.

Middle East are killing children. This is the difference. Hamas

:03:39.:03:43.

missiles did not kill a single Israeli, nobody is talking about the

:03:44.:03:49.

Israeli missiles, the Israelis raids. Against Gaza. Just one

:03:50.:03:54.

minute, Gaza, it is 150 square miles, 2 million people are living

:03:55.:04:00.

there. Even if you throw a stone, you will kill someone. It is the

:04:01.:04:04.

most densely populated area in the world. Imagine shelling from sea and

:04:05.:04:10.

air. What kind... I do not know. I am shocked. We are talking about

:04:11.:04:17.

diplomacy, a lot of diplomacy going around. Will it work, given the

:04:18.:04:21.

relations between the sides, how bad it has become? I cannot hold out a

:04:22.:04:27.

lot of hope for diplomacy and I hope we get a cease`fire because this is

:04:28.:04:32.

catastrophic. Until the underlying issues begin to be solved. I am

:04:33.:04:35.

wondering whether this could begin to be a turning point. Where people

:04:36.:04:42.

begin to see how untenable the situation is, we have talked about

:04:43.:04:46.

war crimes prosecution for Israel from the United Nations which is

:04:47.:04:54.

long do you. `` it is long due. We have the recognition, when you see

:04:55.:04:57.

children killed in hospitals and schools, people begin to recognise,

:04:58.:05:01.

not only that this is appalling and horrifying. But that it is

:05:02.:05:06.

destructive, not only for the people, the Palestinians and Gaza,

:05:07.:05:10.

but also in the end for Israel itself and for the chance of peace,

:05:11.:05:15.

and also Jewish people outside Israel, you cannot live with this

:05:16.:05:22.

kind of... Crime really. Indefinitely. The question for me,

:05:23.:05:30.

will the kid gloves with which Israel has been treated,

:05:31.:05:33.

particularly by the United States which has vetoed United Nations

:05:34.:05:39.

resolutions begin to come off? The diplomacy moves to Paris this

:05:40.:05:44.

weekend. Given that John Kerry has not quite succeeded with what he

:05:45.:05:48.

wanted, is it the role now, the Europeans to take a bigger stand? I

:05:49.:05:55.

think so, I think Europe, proximity with the geography with the Middle

:05:56.:05:59.

East and the case of France, it is very important on the streets,

:06:00.:06:06.

outside Paris, and in the suburbs which have 6 million Muslim, French.

:06:07.:06:13.

Who feel very strongly about what is going on. 500,000 Jewish people. And

:06:14.:06:20.

we have seen in France a lot of problems in the street. And the

:06:21.:06:26.

authorities are very worried. If there is one hope it will be for

:06:27.:06:30.

once Europe, and not a problem of Europe, because they are divided,

:06:31.:06:35.

the British seem to side with Israel, France is quite on the whole

:06:36.:06:45.

neutral. The public opinion is, at the moment, living with

:06:46.:06:52.

Islamophobia. We have seen from the European elections, it pushed

:06:53.:06:55.

government who considered Hamas, a terrorist organisation, more than an

:06:56.:07:00.

Islamic organisation. The government are being careful. Maria mentioned

:07:01.:07:06.

the phrase kid gloves in relation to the way the United States has

:07:07.:07:11.

handled this. We know about the vote situation in the United States. Why

:07:12.:07:15.

would President Obama not come out more strongly? I am not sure we want

:07:16.:07:22.

to go down this road, I do not buy a notion that you imply, that there is

:07:23.:07:26.

some sort of great Jewish lobby. There is a historic affinity and a

:07:27.:07:31.

propensity among Americans who are not Jewish, who may live in the

:07:32.:07:38.

Middle West, if you put in front of them who is a natural ally, the

:07:39.:07:44.

instinctive answer would be to say Israel, it has nothing to do with

:07:45.:07:49.

dark machinations. To get what really matters, the conflict, I

:07:50.:07:54.

would briefly three things. One. We are friends. I don't want to turn

:07:55.:08:03.

this into a proxy conflict. You say by implication poor Hamas, they have

:08:04.:08:08.

not killed any Israeli civilians, which is not true, they have. They

:08:09.:08:15.

have. Again, this is not the issue. It is not for lack of trying. This

:08:16.:08:22.

is not happening in a vacuum. Without taking Israel's side,

:08:23.:08:24.

because I have great misgivings which I will get to, about all sides

:08:25.:08:30.

of the conflict. You have do recognise this is not like

:08:31.:08:34.

Luxembourg and Belgium all of a sudden deciding let's kill

:08:35.:08:40.

civilians... There is a difficult situation and a tough neighbourhood

:08:41.:08:46.

involving an organisation, Hamas, without getting into labels, their

:08:47.:08:51.

charter says they want to destroy the state of Israel, it is not

:08:52.:08:57.

happening in a vacuum. No human being can look at the TV screens as

:08:58.:09:02.

we have for the last 18 days and not be appalled by the depth of the

:09:03.:09:07.

suffering, by what he says is the lack of the ability for ordinarily

:09:08.:09:17.

would`be refugees to run anywhere. If you knew nothing about this

:09:18.:09:21.

conflict, the normal human response which I share and I think is the

:09:22.:09:25.

proper response, is for God sake, stop this. It is horrible. And both

:09:26.:09:31.

sides have a responsibility to do that. The other thing I would say,

:09:32.:09:38.

longer term answers, this is not the first time this has happened. We

:09:39.:09:41.

know where it will end, there will be a cease`fire. But we cannot bring

:09:42.:09:48.

back the 800, maybe 1000 people who have lost their lives. On either

:09:49.:09:56.

side. This is a symptom of terrible abject failure by all sides, over a

:09:57.:10:05.

period of years, to pursue seriously the one negotiated outcome that

:10:06.:10:10.

could just... It just might, and it is tough to be less optimistic over

:10:11.:10:16.

the years, that could provide a long`term solution. That is the

:10:17.:10:23.

secure Israel accepted by its neighbours, living side`by`side with

:10:24.:10:30.

a secure independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, for the

:10:31.:10:36.

Palestinians. On that very strong note we will leave that topic and

:10:37.:10:40.

move on. Thank you for your contributions, it is always

:10:41.:10:41.

difficult. Now let's move to the Ukraine where

:10:42.:10:44.

the situation between Russian separatists and the government

:10:45.:10:47.

in Kiev remains critical and the west particularly US sanctions

:10:48.:10:49.

against Russia begin to bite. Are sanctions against Russia

:10:50.:10:52.

counterproductive and how can Russia Let's say what the Russian... Royal

:10:53.:11:12.

Dutch Shell, it is very close to them in the Arctic, they are from

:11:13.:11:16.

the country where the plane... And you have BP, 20% of the company. You

:11:17.:11:22.

would say the Russian, and you have the French banks and the engineering

:11:23.:11:28.

in German. You would say the Russian have a marvellous reprise all

:11:29.:11:32.

potential. They don't. Because they need the companies investment ``

:11:33.:11:37.

reprisal. To modernise the energy Department. Which is old and it

:11:38.:11:42.

needs investment. The Russians have no arms except the verbal threat.

:11:43.:11:48.

That is why we should not taken seriously, we should apply

:11:49.:11:53.

sanctions. We are hearing from the Russian Foreign Ministry today, the

:11:54.:11:56.

European Union has practically speaking put at risk international

:11:57.:12:01.

cooperation in the area of security. What do you make of that? Actually

:12:02.:12:07.

it is a very dangerous situation because if you corner Russia, they

:12:08.:12:12.

will react. Here, it could be devastating for the whole of Europe.

:12:13.:12:18.

Sanctions are not going to work. Russia lived more than eight years

:12:19.:12:22.

under sanctions and they managed to survive. Now we're actually pushing

:12:23.:12:29.

Putin to be very radicalised and use all of his guards against Europe,

:12:30.:12:34.

who pays the price, Ukraine and the Europeans. The European firms will

:12:35.:12:39.

suffer because of this. Self`defeating? You are talking

:12:40.:12:51.

about 200 people. Until now we do not have any evidence the Russians

:12:52.:12:54.

or the rebels actually downed this jet. Of course. It could be by

:12:55.:13:06.

mistake. It didn't matter because they have the weapons. It is

:13:07.:13:18.

Russia's fault. Americans shoot down Iranian aeroplane in 1984. They

:13:19.:13:25.

said, no, for eight years and in the end they paid $62 million

:13:26.:13:30.

compensation. It does happen. What I'm against is sanctions against

:13:31.:13:38.

Iran, Russia, against career. Why? `` against North Korea. Who is

:13:39.:13:47.

suffering in Ukraine, Ukrainian people, their country will be

:13:48.:13:54.

dismembered. Who is paying? Russia is a rogue state. Who is paying for

:13:55.:14:01.

this crisis, the Europeans, they are paying for Ukraine and the sanction.

:14:02.:14:05.

We need to talk and reach a solution. In the Ukraine we have a

:14:06.:14:13.

civil war situation, it is more complex than we understand. There

:14:14.:14:16.

are Russian speakers, we have got this government in Kiev which, the

:14:17.:14:22.

Prime Minister has resigned, it has been problematic.

:14:23.:14:24.

Prime Minister has resigned, it has There was the building, with the

:14:25.:14:28.

Russians in it which was burned, terrible things have been done on

:14:29.:14:31.

both sides. What worries me, and I agree with you, we are in a

:14:32.:14:36.

dangerous situation because we are getting a new Cold War hysteria

:14:37.:14:40.

whipped up. Looking at the British tabloids, I was reading the daily

:14:41.:14:43.

Mirror and the Daily Mail, there is stuff about Putin the devil. He is a

:14:44.:14:54.

tyrant, there is no democracy. Listing which country in Europe is

:14:55.:14:58.

the most lily livered, we have to be careful, Putin's popularity has

:14:59.:15:03.

soared over the issue. If we want to do any good for the people of

:15:04.:15:06.

Ukraine and Russia, we should not go on like elephants, we need to be

:15:07.:15:14.

more thoughtful. What is the universal fear of Vladimir Putin

:15:15.:15:20.

that makes countries think. It is not a fear of Putin, it is economic,

:15:21.:15:27.

real politic, the Europeans have a lot of economic concerns in terms of

:15:28.:15:33.

mostly energy dependency. Instinctively, I hate to say on the

:15:34.:15:41.

one hand, on the other hand, I was living in the Soviet Union, in

:15:42.:15:45.

Moscow, in 1983 when the Soviets by mistake shot down a Korean airliner.

:15:46.:15:51.

31 years ago, my God, I am old! CHUCKLES

:15:52.:16:00.

I remember writing and thinking, when watching Vladimir Putin handled

:16:01.:16:05.

this. This is as much a psychological as a political

:16:06.:16:13.

problem. Basically, this is their lives `` this is very Soviet, he is

:16:14.:16:19.

a KGB thug, you say we are bringing back the Cold War, this is not a

:16:20.:16:24.

post`Soviet leader. Putin is a Soviet president. But I would see

:16:25.:16:35.

this as an opportunity and I know it is delicate. The Russians feel

:16:36.:16:43.

ashamed on some level, they feel guilty on some level. They try to

:16:44.:16:50.

pretend it was someone else's fault, but they know it was an

:16:51.:16:56.

accidental missile strike by rebels which the Russians gave arms too. It

:16:57.:17:12.

is a rogue state. I do not think sanctions will work. European

:17:13.:17:16.

sanctions are unlikely to happen. It is a more serious problem. I think

:17:17.:17:22.

if you ask, what is the best outcome? It is to get a situation

:17:23.:17:30.

where Vladimir Putin is given space to pull back... White is the British

:17:31.:17:42.

Government not finishing the oligarch? They are beginning to

:17:43.:17:47.

freeze their assets. They are not, he has not done it and it is because

:17:48.:17:53.

all these people bring money here and the city makes money. We want

:17:54.:18:07.

Russian respect for us. I agree. If it is a bully state, why should we

:18:08.:18:13.

give Vladimir Putin the ammunition? Why should we provoke him so he can

:18:14.:18:21.

be a security problem for the whole of Europe. I am going to be forceful

:18:22.:18:28.

and move on to our next topic. We are going to put sanctions in

:18:29.:18:29.

place! This week an international

:18:30.:18:34.

conference in London focused on female genital mutilation

:18:35.:18:36.

and some progress was made. David Cameron says

:18:37.:18:39.

his government will now prosecute parents who submit

:18:40.:18:41.

their daughters to this abuse. At the same time the Isis group

:18:42.:18:43.

of fighters in Iraq's city of Mosul say they are going to force all

:18:44.:18:46.

girls to be cut. Barri just how many girls

:18:47.:18:49.

are involved here? At least 4 million between the age

:18:50.:19:06.

of 11 and 16 because that is the age for this circumcision. But ISIS are

:19:07.:19:18.

not cutting the genital part. This is the last thing they are talking

:19:19.:19:23.

about. This is not part of the culture of Iraq, Syria and Jordan.

:19:24.:19:31.

It is a practice taking place in the Horn of Africa, Egypt and Saddam. Is

:19:32.:19:45.

it another sense of control? What is it? We were surprised to hear that.

:19:46.:19:51.

But through my own experience and the study of that part of the world,

:19:52.:19:55.

it is not part of the culture of Iraq or Syria. I think there could

:19:56.:20:03.

be a misunderstanding and I think the United Nations could be trapped

:20:04.:20:09.

in this. But it is brutal. ISIS is more brutal. They execute people,

:20:10.:20:15.

they hang them, they stone women to death if they commit adultery. But

:20:16.:20:23.

it is working in this country. I have been living in the last 13

:20:24.:20:29.

years here. The Egyptian community and the Sudanese practised it. But

:20:30.:20:37.

nobody can do it. They cannot even take their daughters to Egypt or

:20:38.:20:43.

Somalia in order to have this kind of genital cutting. But it is

:20:44.:20:47.

happening in other countries. There is a question about the accuracy of

:20:48.:20:54.

that report about ISIS saying that. It is one of those things that goes

:20:55.:20:58.

out over the Internet and it is not at all clear that report is

:20:59.:21:03.

accurate. We do know it does happen here. 137,000 cases. This conference

:21:04.:21:10.

is extremely welcome and it is important that this is discussed

:21:11.:21:14.

openly. It is difficult to bear to think about this. But there is

:21:15.:21:20.

something about it all so that I find slightly worrying. It made me

:21:21.:21:26.

slightly concerned to see Theresa May the Home Secretary saying we

:21:27.:21:28.

have to protect girls from this terrible scourge when women are

:21:29.:21:33.

claiming asylum here for themselves and their daughters on the basis of

:21:34.:21:37.

the threat of FGM are often not granted asylum, particularly the

:21:38.:21:45.

case of a woman from the Gambia who is the daughter of a woman who was

:21:46.:21:51.

an FGM practitioner in her community and who left the Gambia because when

:21:52.:21:55.

her mother died she would be forced to take up this role and she refused

:21:56.:22:00.

it. She was detained for five months in the aisles would where we know

:22:01.:22:04.

there is a lot of abuse, and she still has not got asylum. The

:22:05.:22:11.

Government needs to check what his left and right hand is doing. FGM

:22:12.:22:17.

has been illegal since 1985 and we need to think about our policy

:22:18.:22:22.

towards women coming from abroad. Do you think the British Government's

:22:23.:22:26.

thoughts and moods will reflect on to other governments? You are right.

:22:27.:22:33.

In a way one of the most positive things about the conference was that

:22:34.:22:37.

it raised the issue and it is the kind of thing that is talked about

:22:38.:22:43.

much too infrequently. Often with issues like this merely putting them

:22:44.:22:47.

on the agenda, this happen to landmines and lots of issues, once

:22:48.:22:53.

it becomes part of the intellectual dialogue at these conferences, the

:22:54.:22:57.

likelihood is something will happen not just here. I think you are right

:22:58.:23:03.

the problem is joined up Government to use that terrible phrase. So

:23:04.:23:08.

far, so good. Cameron taking the lead, putting it on the agenda, but

:23:09.:23:14.

it is the practical edge. Targeting the parents as well. It is not only

:23:15.:23:23.

do parents, but the doctors. I know doctors are practising these crimes

:23:24.:23:27.

behind doors and there is some understanding. But now because of

:23:28.:23:32.

the British Government putting pressure on criminalising this, now

:23:33.:23:35.

parents cannot take their children to other countries to have it done.

:23:36.:23:42.

In France they prosecute? Absolutely and it is a big crime. And they

:23:43.:23:51.

prosecute the doctors? And they prosecute the doctors, they cannot

:23:52.:23:55.

register or practice. Not only is the conference fantastic, but you

:23:56.:24:01.

need to spend money on education in these communities. Very often these

:24:02.:24:08.

communities are left out of the mainstream education system, they

:24:09.:24:11.

are quite poor. There is a big financial effort for education. What

:24:12.:24:19.

about coming up against the cultural aspects of it? Some women accept it

:24:20.:24:24.

is part of their culture. That is where an education programme would

:24:25.:24:29.

help. I mix with Somalis and Egyptians. The new generation is

:24:30.:24:37.

saying a big no to this practice. They are revolting against this

:24:38.:24:41.

practice. It is not Islamic, amoral and inhuman. They even say we are

:24:42.:24:50.

not going with our families to Somalia or Egypt or Sudan or other

:24:51.:24:55.

countries. If there is anything like this done, they report it. We have a

:24:56.:25:02.

rebellion amongst the community. We know in general things that help

:25:03.:25:06.

women all over the world Art education and economic development.

:25:07.:25:11.

To empower them both sexually, personally, economically, that is

:25:12.:25:17.

the most important thing. Prosecution is necessary as well.

:25:18.:25:23.

Does it drive it underground? There is always that risk, but you cannot

:25:24.:25:28.

say I am not going to prosecute because it will go underground. It

:25:29.:25:32.

is a terrible thing to do to anybody. Thank you to all of my

:25:33.:25:37.

guests today for discussing some pretty heavy topics. That is all

:25:38.:25:42.

from us for this week. We are back next week at the same time. From all

:25:43.:25:45.

of us, goodbye. Although southern areas will hold

:25:46.:26:16.

onto the sunshine, it looks like cooler and pressure conditions will

:26:17.:26:19.

move down from the north and the West. Scattered showers will push

:26:20.:26:27.

down maybe longer spells of rain and it will turn cooler. The reason is

:26:28.:26:31.

because

:26:32.:26:32.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS