07/11/2015 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

The deaths of more than 200 people on the Russian airliner

What are the consequences for Russia, Egypt,

Plus, where does the intelligence war against Islamic State link to

the British Government's plans for more surveillance powers?

Alexander Nekrasov, who is a Russian journalist,

Stryker McGuire, of Bloomberg Markets,

Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab writer and commentator,

and Janet Daley of the Sunday Telegraph.

All around the world we can imagine the same scene -

taking our families on holiday for, perhaps, a bit of winter sun in

a different culture, boarding the plane home and then a disaster.

In this case, the Russian airliner over the Sinai peninsula.

The people who call themselves Islamic State say they did it

and Islamic State in Syria have been celebrating.

First of all, Alexander, just tell us what kind of Russians go on

holiday? What kind of people are we talking about? We are talking about

ordinary people. They are lower -middle-class. Some of the people

who died, there was a dinner lady and a factory worker who won the

holiday as a prize for his good work. We are talking about ordinary

people and I think the shot in the country is because when you see all

the close of children scattered around and the grieving relatives, I

think the nation united around the tragedy. -- I think the shock. Every

country in the world can associate with that grief and understand what

that means because children were going on holiday and then suddenly

there was death. This is a shock. Do the authorities in Russia accepted

as a bomb? Although there is no official statement, I think that the

fact that the head of the Russian intelligence was telling President

Putin it is best to take out all the 90,000 Russian tourists in Egypt and

I think that without saying it they are accepting that it was a

terrorist attack. President Putin, who sometimes does not accept

advice, he has accepted the advice from his intelligence people. I

think it was the right thing to do. Who else would you expect him to

take advice from. This is a moment that unites people. Also the

civilian airliner that was shot down over the Ukraine, but the reason I

think the Russia has not made an official announcement is because

politically that is very difficult for President Putin. It seems to be

a direct consequence of his involvement in Syria and his

involvement in Syria was already politically difficult because the

Russians remember Afghanistan and they were very ambivalent about

becoming involved in Syria. Now the involvement in Syria seems to have

had this repercussion, so it is awkward for them to admit that he

has incited this terrorist incident on Russian civilians. This will play

into the hands of President Putin in the short term at least. He said

that they sent their war to Syria to fight Islamic State and to stop them

coming to us. The problem is that when we look at its, Isis is

victorious because of this thing. They have been able to tell people

that they delivered a double blow, an economic one because this will

destroy the remnants of tourism in Egypt and secondly a security blow

because it means they have the ability to penetrate security

measures that are meant to be very tight. We managed to get them out

and finish them, so to coincide with his trip to Britain, Islamic State

managed to blow up this plane. But if it is a victory for Isis then it

can be a victory for President Putin as well. I am not saying that. But

they are celebrating. The perception in Russia of Isis is something that

has been created by the West. That is the perception on the ground.

President Putin has no problem explaining to people why they went

to Syria, because even before the Russians started bombing Isis in

Syria they had already threatened Russia, they already had members in

areas, Chechnya and is already seeing they were part of Isis. --

the people in Chechnya. The perception is that he is fighting an

enemy that is causing a danger. This is such a familiar story now. If you

go into that part of the world you get burnt. It is impossible to do

anything on any side without getting a problem. President Putin may use

this in the short-term as a justification for what he's doing in

Syria, but in the long-term this is an example of how things can turn

you and I think Janet is right that the Russian memory Afghanistan...

You're missing the point. This was not a Russian invasion, it was done

without a mandate from the people. You cannot compare Americans going

into Afghanistan and causing me have and then running off... It is like

saying it was a different administration. The Nan -- the the

fact it was a different generation is neither here nor there. All they

can remember are the body bags coming home and a Russian still the

same about Afghanistan and they are wary about involvement in that part

of the world. American policy is that you go into countries, you

leave a mess, you run off, like in Iraq and Syria, and then you think

things will work out themselves. Russia left Afghanistan in the same

position. You cannot leave a failed state behind. I want to hear what

the answer is. What is the answer? The Americans and the West to have

created the mess in Iraq and Libya have two pit boots on the ground.

Does Russia have to do that in Syria? Russia did not cause that

problem. Russia is trying to help. Russia has boots on the ground in

Syria and they have enabled bases -- and they have naval bases. They are

advising the Syrian army. I am not saying that this is good or bad.

Don't think about America and the West. The Russians were warning

America when they invaded Iraq that this would cause a chain reaction. I

don't want to argue with you, I want to argue with Janet. Go ahead and

argue. What is happening is relieved frightening many people in the

Middle East state is gaining ground and they are getting stronger and to

do what they did in Sharm el-Sheikh, they have done this

because they have managed to achieve victory. This will help them to

recruit more people to their site. Do you agree with that? If it was

proved to be them and they are dancing in the streets, it will

recruit more people to their cause? Everything recruits more people to

their cause. It attracts people from myriad discontents and malcontents

across the region, including in our own country. The difficulty is that

it is a monster without a head, so it is difficult to defeat. In any

security sends, but I think the time might be coming. I was interested to

see the Foreign Minister for your country saying that the preservation

of President Assad's resume was not a requirement of the Russians to

become involved. Russia is moving closer to working incorporation with

the United States to do something. Do you think it is possible? I think

the movement is happening from both directions. I think you are right,

Janet, but I think the British and the French recognise that in order

to have a solution we may need Russian help and in that sense that

could be good. How long it takes to get there and how many people will

die in the meantime is another question. And Iranian help. The

problem is that what the Russians can't understand is that we have a

terrible example of Libya, terrible, when they resume was taken out

quickly and nothing was put into its place. Now we have a failed state.

The same scenario is being written for Syria when they said that

President Assad must go tomorrow. It cannot work like that, you have to

do it slowly which is what the Russians are saying. It needs to be

done in cooperation. The remaining superpower will have to work with

the ex-superpower and other allies in the region and be prepared to

stay there and create a viable state. That is the only possible

solution. The problem is that in theory the Americans will work with

the Russians to fight Islamic State, but in the long run I believe they

will clash. It is a proxy war between the two sides. The Russians

are seen as supporting the sheer while the Americans in the West as

supporting the Sydney. It would be very fatal. The problem is that in

the West to change the regime and now they are trying to change the

resume and Syria. The problem is that they don't know, they don't

have big plans after that. Just a second. Where are the Arab states in

this? They are divided. The irony is that Egypt is going back to its

alliance with Russia. You can't blame them? I don't blame anyone.

The problem is -- is the major problem you're always forgetting. --

the major problem you're always forgetting is that we cannot leave

America alone. It is time to ask one question and then maybe you can

comment. Why can we not defeat Isis? I can tell you, because there are

half measures. There are countries and governments allowed to finance

it and no one seems to know this. Where is the money that Isis makes.

The banks loaned them money, just like the drug cartels. The drugs

cartels exist because the banks lend them money. They now don't have a

money problem at all. Everyone avoids one small thing, recruitment.

Why do young people go and join this terrible group of gangsters? Why do

they join them? Because there is a serious crisis in our modern

society, spiritual, religious, cultural. We have people at the top

who are doing what ever they want and getting away with it so what do

you expect from people on the ground. The problem for the West in

having to remove machines like President Assad is that they cannot

support genocidal. If it a choice between genocidal maniacs and

anarchy, they will go when and then they have to deal with the fact that

they need to stay in to deal with the anarchy. The Americans have been

accused for many generations of supporting tinpot dictators have

murdered their own people and now those people are turning on America

for displacing builds tinpot dictators. In 1988, the last

Reagan-Gorbachev summit, I was sent there as a young journalist and I

was told privately that the West, Russia, and the United States will

have to cooperate against Islamic fanaticism. He said that in 1988. Do

you see that moment coming? Not properly cooperating. I really

don't. I don't see it happening. For a number of reasons. Firstly, I

think there is a tremendous amount of distrust between the two

countries. How many times have they had to reset? There are fundamental

differences in their historical and cultural... So I don't think in the

short time. You don't see it either? I think it is the best for the whole

world to disagree, because we don't want them to agree with each other

against us. Seriously, we in the third World we are suffering from

Russian intervention and American intervention. It both of them agree

against us it will be a blow catastrophe. Henry Kissinger would

be proud of you for your mental flexibility there. Why is Janet

supporting anarchy? I was saying that what the West can do is be seen

to support genocidal tyrants. It is got in trouble for doing that. The

West should leave us alone. We have had in lot of your military

intervention. Please stay away. When there are terrorist incidents like

9-11, it is Isis who are not leaving after alone. Isis is your creation.

You either incubator for Isis and Al-Qaeda. You do not talk about the

invasion of Iraq... The first attempt on the twin towers happen

before the Iraq invasion. Let me make this point about the reset

button. The reset button on the relationship with Russia was part of

Obama's withdrawal of America from the global scene in which President

Putin very cleverly walked into the vacuum that Obama left in foreign

policy. Now America has to rethink the reset because it has retired as

he superpower. I think history will be the judge of that. A lot of

people understand why Obama was gun shy. He wanted not to be Bruce. We

have to think about what happened in America to Bush and public opinion.

You want him to stay away. Yes, I do. It was too early. It was

dangerous to do that. He could not say that he was pulling out because

he was a duck. Obama was very active in pulling Pakistan into the war in

Afghanistan and when you said we are not supporting, America is not

supporting dictators, what about Saudi Arabia? You're always avoid

this. I'm not sure that she does. Obama virtually announced in the

first year of his presidency that America was not going to be the

policeman of the world any more. He went eastern Europe and removed the

missile bases and fed to rush out we are out of the game. A lot of what

has happened is... If you look at American destruction in the Middle

East in Iraq and Libya. I think we are on the verge of an agreement.

Can I just bring in, do you think there is an implication for

anti-terrorist legislation in this country and elsewhere? In other

words, the way this has panned out over the last week is that the

British intelligence intercepted information that made the case to

the Prime Minister that the British people could be in danger. They

think that it impacts British politics because there is a big

debate about the slippers charter, could find what the intelligence

agencies can and cannot do. -- snoopers. I don't think it is that

simple. It is a debate that has happened in other countries. It has

happened in Germany and the United States. I think the debate may

become so powerful that it would work against what you are talking

about. I think that if you had a built two nights -- if you had a

bill tonight 's in the heater ball of this perhaps. People are starting

to think about the fact there is one CCTV camera for every 11 people.

This legislation could advise what has already been going on. It

licenses it in regular rises at which I think is very dangerous. I'm

amazed at the complacency of the British about this. They trust their

spies. This is a very dangerous precedent. Everyone is talking about

privacy and that makes it sound insignificant, but this is about

presumption of innocence. You should not be subjected to this kind of

surveillance if you are an innocent person and are no grounds for

thinking that you are not and it is also about freedom of association,

to say that you can communicate with anybody but we will be watching

Bilski medications. There is also the laziness of the intelligence

services and politicians. They think it is the case that if you listen to

everyone you will find out the truth. That does not take into

account human intelligence and human factor. They do not want to do it

because it is dangerous, help and safety might say something about it,

it is dangerous to infiltrate and it is expensive and it takes time. All

the human intelligence has been swept away because now we can listen

to everyone. Look what has happened? The world has got more dangerous.

Can we trust the intelligence? Can be believing them, especially when

we were misled about intelligence information and Tony Blair admitted

that he got the wrong intelligence which actually created the problem.

Tony Blair created intelligence, which is the problem. The British

intelligence told is that the aborted eight fatal attacks in this

country, but how did they do it? Did they arrest anybody? The problem is

that we do not know. I freedom -- we give up our freedom when we had

mobile phones. We surrendered to them. Protecting life is always

going to be the first priority of any government. You have to think

about the quality of the life that you are protecting. Is that the

operation for anybody can... This new bill is allegedly going to have

a double lock. In America, the NSA has to go to a court and 99.9% of

cases they rubber-stamp the decisions of the security officers.

This is not the life that free people should be living. I suspect

if it was put to a referendum... I was going to say that I think that

even if we trust, said that we don't, but let's say we did trust

the intelligence services, can we trust them to safeguard this

information? There are people out there, especially if it is collected

into one place, the efforts to get that information is going to be

huge. That is that BN is of the Edward Snowden M Bradley Manning

situation because you could not have printed it off because there was so

much. What you have is a battle between Edward Snowden on one hand

and 9-11 on the other hand. We need to end it there.

That's it for Dateline London for this week - we're back next week

You can of course comment on the programme on Twitter, @gavinesler.