21/11/2015 Dateline London

Welcome to Dateline London. The events in Paris and their

consequences raise profound questions which define our world for

years to come, followed as they have been by a further attack on Mali.

Can Islamic State, Daesh and similar organisations be defeated? If so,

how? What are the consequences for politics in France, Germany, across

Europe and for Syrian refugees. Welcome to our guests is. Let us

begin with France. Where do you think French politics is now? People

are united behind the president, it is clearly an attack on French

culture, ordinary French people, but that presumably will last?

I have spent the last week in France. What will last is a feeling

of going back to the values of the French republic. I have never seen

so many people, singing the Marseillaise, waving the five, Young

people are joining the Army. But not in a war of religion, racist, but

more to preserve what is the French republic and the value of liberty, a

galley, fraternity. -- Cammack. The problem is that of course the

National front will make a killing out of that. December the 6th is the

favourite to take several regions. favourite to take several regions.

The second thing is that France now has to think again about the model

of integration and multiculturalism which is not working. Unemployment

is very high where the shooting took place. They have to rethink their

foreign policy, how far to go with the bombing, the coalition, the

problem of Schengen, free circulation. France has two protect

the external frontier much better. It could be the end of Schengen. You

have been in Brussels. There is this state of emergency, the metro was

closed. How do you see things they are and that area in particular,

where the roots of this particular incident in Paris came from? I went

to see the Moroccan community, the Muslim community there, to see what

they think. Most of them, the greater majority are in shock. They

did not expect these kind of attacks to take place. The majority,

especially the first generation, they believe, this country gave us

everything and it does not deserve to be repaid the way that they

weren't France. But at the same time, when you talk to

third-generation, younger people, in the Muslim community, they say, it

is bad, but... Hair using this word, but, all the time. If we want to

tackle this problem, we have to look at this but. We have to listen to

them. Why is this coming up all the time? This is crucial. They want

education, jobs, to be equal. They feel that they do not have the

opportunities? Honestly, no. They are losing their identity. They were

born in Britain, France, they love this country, but at the same time

they love this country, but at the same their parents or grandparents.

They do not fit in either place. They are completely disillusioned.

They do not know where to belong to. They are an easy hunt to the radical

Islamic organisations. They are monitoring the masks, -- mosques

pitting surveillance in. People do not go to the mosque... Because they

look at things online? They go to Facebook, Twitter, and they are

vulnerable because of their confusion of identity. They are easy

hunt for those people to be radicalised. It is very important.

That is quite a scary prospect, people who aren't associated from

all basic things about the state that they are in, the state their

grandparents came from, and connect up in this electronic jihad, as

people have called it. It is all was difficult to deal with. Quite a lot

of people in all of these attacks are not actually unemployed. Some of

those involved in the British attacks on our underground and

buses, some of them had jobs, families, so it is quite a profound

cultural thing. But it seems to me that what we have to keep on about

is the utter insanity of this belief. It is one of the maddest

cults there has ever been. It is a death cult loosely based on

religion, but based on an insane idea that you will go to heaven and

be a marketer if you kill a lot of people. It is as directed against

other Muslim is, people not of their cult, as it is against Westerners.

The idea that they will conquer the entire world and will not be happy

until they do, that there will be a caliphate that conquers everything,

is such a crazy idea. It is crazier than any other cult we have had to

talk about it more but also we need talk about it more but also we need

to market more. I think we could do with mockery and sheer exposure of

the insanity of it. Make them feel that it is crazy. You have to look

at the recruitment methods. Messages received through Facebook and

Twitter, they live in an immoral world, the West is decadent and

depraved. But they are quite happy to use Twitter and iPhones... And

they are happy to use rape and abominable behaviour.

Third-generation is the problem. The 15th century ideology and the 21st

century technology. Can they not see that one of the reasons they can go

on Twitter is because of all the freedoms that they are trying to

destroy? How do you deal with that? We have to remember, those people

are the minority of the minority. They are small groups. They are not

a large group. Secondly, these people are vulnerable, the girl who

blew herself up. If you look at her, she was living a very openly of

life. She went to pubs and nightclubs. Her brother said she had

never read the Koran. Some people had been in prison with

copies of Islam for Dummies in their pockets. These groups are confused.

Someone can come to them. You are sending a lot, if you want to

repent, you have to go to Islam. If you want to remove all of your sins

completely, you have to join us. To what extent would you put Saudi

Arabia as one of the causes. We have tolerated it, sucked up to them,

sold them our weapons, while they have spread a pernicious faith that

has done so much damage. You think about the subjugation of women and

the attitudes towards women, but we have been it happy to deal with that

for decades. This is the problem of the West. When the Middle East was

turning to moderation, to secularism, the West used the

support of Saudi Arabia. Daybreak the West was a lot of arms deals and

investment. Braved the West. The West helped them. While the West was

fighting communism, Saudi Arabia managed to spread their politics of

the Middle East. Previously there was not a single woman wearing a

hijab. Now if you go to an American university, you had not find a

single woman without a hijab. This is the problem. People are talking

about it. This Islamic State ideology is based on that,

18th-century. I think there is another problem. There is no role

model. What surprised me most, being in Paris, all of the pundits, all of

the specialists and academics, my own former newspaper, not one

Muslim. That means that the whole murder scene that happened, that has

created this carnage, there was never an example of someone

integrating themselves, an example to follow. 500 journalists at my

newspaper, not one Muslim. I heard a French Muslim singer on the radio

last week saying, I love France, France does not love me. That

summarises it. Yet, it is more integrated than some people say. The

result of intermarriage. Although there are these severe problems,

nevertheless, within France there is integration. The power structure is

still completely closed to his lungs.

Can we look at some specific areas? How much trouble as Angela Merkel

and over immigration? This is the discovery that Syrian passports may

have been falsified, we do not know the full story, but she is in

serious political difficulty. She will be, because of this constant

stream arriving from Syria, heading towards Europe and Germany, it is

hard to cope with. What is reassuring us that this problem that

Germany has is now reaching the level of everyone else's concern in

Europe. Germany becomes destabilised, a rock of stability in

the last decade, that is bad for all was. We need policies to help Angela

Merkel. Should we pay Turkey more to oppose them? There is a new plan to

keep a lot of people arriving in Europe out of our borders, keep them

in Turkey for a while so that the ones that have arrived can settle

and we can develop the experiences of what to do with them. After tame,

we can then lease the ones that we have kept in Turkey and let them

come piecemeal, not all at once. Do you think showing in is finished?

Yes. There are temporary border closures, but Italy and Greece are

very porous, Germany has a problem because of that, and there is a

great appetite to restore borders and see that showing in was a

mistake. My question is, to what extent was it a mistake? The outer

borders will have to be policed more strongly. They will be. But what

about borders within Europe? We have free movement, once you are admitted

to the Schengen area. They can move freely and reinvent themselves. The

outside borders are not policed. How can you possibly policed the whole

of Greece and Italy? We have given them so little help during this

crisis. The idea that they will suddenly become firm borders, they

will not. That is why Schengen will not work. I think showing in as

pivotal for the future of Europe. If we get rid of that, Europe will not

continue. At the end of the day, if you'd be different year between

Belgium and France, with the guy escaping from France, going to

Belgium, being checked by the French police at the temporary frontier,

showing in his to stay. It has to be reinforced and police controlled.

But we cannot give terrorism that gift to get rid of Schengen. Two

points. Those people are from within Europe. They are not coming from

outside. Schengen has nothing to do with this. That is extremely

important. Secondly, talking about Germany, I have been to Germany ten

times and I have spoken to the community there, you have more than

2.5 million Turks living in Turkey and more than 1.5 million Arabs

living there. They are happy and integrated in one way or another.

Their business is extremely good. We should look at it from the inside

not the outside. In the Middle East the right take borders but it does

not prevent Islamic State from spreading. Because of the Internet,

as you said. Exactly. The border matter should be put aside and we

should not look for scapegoats you right there. But you are describing

the Germany that was. We were just beginning to understand that Germany

is an immigrant country. But the sudden arrival of 1 million moreover

night really taxes the ability of the population, despite a

familiarity with Turkish and Arab immigrants. Can we afford to absorb

any more? Angela Merkel's fortunes are sinking rapidly. What has kept

so far in places that there is no visible alternative to her, no other

man or woman he could take over. Win with the Syrian immigrants, it is a

civil society. Most of them are secular. They are also middle-class

and they are very civilised people. Highly professional. Other parts of

the Middle East, I perhaps agree. But when it comes to Syria and the

Syrian immigrants, they are gift to Europe. Secondly, they waited five

years... Why did they not come four years ago? There is a unanimity to

help the Syrians. That is not the question. But with the Syrians,

Iraqis, Afghans, Africans, there is the whole poverty of the world.

Europe has a moral duty to the Syrians just as to the Iraqis, the

Afghans, but not the world. Domestic politics, the UN has given cover to

David Cameron to go back to Parliament, they have said all

necessary measures should be contemplated if dealing with this.

That perhaps suggest is to David Cameron that he might win the vote

in the Commons on bombing IS targets in the Commons on bombing IS targets

in Syria. Public opinion in this country was very strongly against

and is now making more in favour, which is interesting. Whether that

is just a spasm after Paris, I do not know. What would we be adding? A

few more bombs. We would not be adding what is really needed, boots

on the ground. Which is what everybody says. You will not conquer

and less you have somebody's boots on the ground. It will not be us,

that is for sure. One good reason for going solidarity with the French

and the Americans, simply a gesture. And the Russians. Maybe even with

President Putin, the terrible. Although you look at the reason why

so many Syrians are leaving and it is not because of Isis, it is

because of the barrel bombs coming from President Assad. The Russian

ingredients simply complicates it all. I think there will be a lot of

alarm about what we are doing it for, how we get out, what the

purposes. Maybe in the end this year wish of solidarity with the French

will be enough to do -- to make us do it. Britain cannot be seen to be

the one lagging behind to do something. There are eight

tornadoes. They will not be difficult to withdraw. But for

Britain, which 12 years ago was at the forefront in Iraq, without the

slightest day in Tony Blair's mind, and... You cannot withdraw until the

job is done. Physically you can stop bombing but there has to be a reason

to stop bombing. We will be in the to stop bombing. We will be in the

bombing for ever and tell the problem is. But if you have the

community behind you, does that lend community behind you, does that lend

extra weight? Solidarity with France? Yes, France needs solidarity

with the bombing campaign. People in France are happy and grateful for

this incredible solidarity all over the world, with buildings being the

national colour. But you need solidarity, because France cannot

bomb on its own. David Cameron is welcome, and the other Europeans

should show solidarity in also sharing information. The French must

accept that it is a big step. It is important for now won that it is

Europe as a whole -- it is important that Europe as a whole is coming

together. There are 7000 soldiers against Isis for the last year and

two months. This is the problem. This is not a new thing. 7000

soldiers, it did nothing, or very little. This is the problem. You

need boots on the ground, but who should send this boots on the

ground? Any bring countries, Turkish. Kurdish forces are doing

the fighting, Turkey is worried the... They are the only ones who

are doing it. You have to have the Kurds or Islamic State, you have to

decide. They are now launching a war in Yemen, why have the British and

French said, this is not the time? This is the problem. They must

listen. If you want to fight Islamic State, you have to be truthful. They

buy weapons from France, the United Arab Emirates by weapons from

Russia, people are coming to buy weapons from the UK. We will invest

in your country if you listen to us. They must face the reality and sit

together. Why do the Gulf states take no immigrants? It is a big

problem that we have. This is the problem about what we would we

Syria, with all these problems with Syria, with all these problems with

extremely unreliable and disreputable allies amongst them,

with other countries, Saudi Arabia, behaving disgracefully and refusing

to take any immigrants, with the Turks utterly conflicted because

they are busy bombing only people who are actually fighting Isis, what

are we doing other than saying, me too? Is that a good enough reason to

go to war? It makes me very and easy because it is so unclear what the

objectives are. It is very much a question of all of the country is

getting together and actually being honest. The diplomatic efforts are

continuing, but you have to live in this moment. Just to be there? For

no particular military objective? It is additional firepower. The

ineffectiveness has been proven beyond doubt. This leads me to the

Schengen area. While this bombing is going on, individual perpetrators

come through the Borders. I have to disagree with you about showing in.

It is essential that we find a way to police the outside borders.

Absolutely. Outside borders, for me you can create a complete

sanctuary. But you have to keep Schengen. What if you cannot protect

the outside borders? Then you take Greece and Italy out of Schengen.

You put it higher up. There is no need to put a frontier between

Holland, Belgium... Why is showing in so important? It is very nice not

to have to show your passport, but it is quite trivial. We go in and

out of Europe and it is no big deal that we have to have our passport

looked at? I believe with you, in practice it should not make a

difference. It is the European ideal, which we should be proud of,

and showing in as part of it. In the short-term, medium-term,

resident Assad is safe in Syria? Absolutely safe. The knighted States

is closer now to that Soviet point of view, the Russian point of view.

If you want to fight Isis or Islamic State you need boots on the ground.

The only army which is qualified to fight Islamic State is the Syrian

Army. Now they have the experience of gorilla war. He had the

experience of classical army. -- guerilla war. They do not want to do

it. Who is qualified? Is it the Syrian Army? We have not mentioned

Iran. With the dictator the area is probably safer than without him. The

priority of the whole world, the UN Security Council issued a resolution

and to clear the Warren Isis. You need stages. The priority is to

fight Islamic State. Many people just six months ago, the Spanish

Foreign Minister, Angela Merkel, said we should talk to President

Assad. But the Turkish, the Saudi Arabians, they said, if you talk to

him then we are quitting. They listened to them. There must be real

understanding. We will have to leave it there. That

is all the Bromham Dateline London this week. We're back at the same

time next week. You can comment on Twitter. Thank you for watching and

goodbye.