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Hello and welcome to Dateline London. | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
More migrants die on the treacherous crossing to Europe as France's | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
prime minister frets immigration could destroy the European Union. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Plus, Facebook's chief said her customers can help defeat | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
Islamic State. Should we like her idea? | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
My guests this week are, Abdel Bari Atwan, who is a writer | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
Henry Chu who is an American journalist and | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
We were told that treacherous winter seas would cut back those Syrians | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
and others willing to risk their lives trying to cross | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
from Turkey to Greece but it hasn't happened. | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Instead the people traffickers have cut prices. | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
More migrants are dying and France's prime minister Manuel Valls | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
says unchecked migration could destroy the European Union. | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
It was pretty blunt statement. Yes, but that is what we need. Lucidity | :01:14. | :01:29. | |
is a quality and the rare quality in politicians, especially in Prime | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
Minister 's. The president of the European Council says we have two | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
months to save Schengen. Why did he say that? If you look at the | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
equipment, you can look at Germany, you can suspend Schengen. What | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
happens is, it is fairly clear, either you default and Germany is | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
the powerhouse of Europe, and if it doesn't play by the rules then it is | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
the end. What you can do, article 26 is very clear. You've got to prove | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
that one of the European member states, let's say Greece, cannot | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
actually protect the external border of the union and then you can | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
actually pull the suspension Schengen for two years. That would | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
leave first time, that it leave the European Union time, to sort out the | :02:30. | :02:39. | |
mess. As Manuel Valls said, this is akin to bacon tree solution. It is | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
the beginning of the end. -- country by country solution. Putting up | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
fences and walls and closing eastern borders, this is not of the European | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
project is about. This will not be the end of Europe but a Europe, the | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
founding fathers and mothers of the union. When I hear the words, | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
temporarily suspension, I think temporarily is the European word for | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
permanent. Quite possibly. Except that to go back to the broader point | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
and the quotes from the French Prime Minister, in a way I think the | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
opposite is the case. I framed this in the context of the referendum we | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
are about to have in the UK and whether we stay in order. If you | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
pose the question, would we have the European Union if you didn't already | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
exist? With the implication that the doubters will pose that question, of | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
course we wouldn't. But of course we would. Many of the problems can only | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
be solved by coordinating on a European wide basis. Many of the | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
problems we face, of which this one is a classic example. The fact we | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
are failing totally to do so doesn't invalidate for one moment the idea | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
that some kind of court the nation is required... | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
Because Greece is our problem, Malta, Cicely. | :04:17. | :04:28. | |
Completely. This tragic migrant story is our problem. Pulling out of | :04:29. | :04:40. | |
this soul search is nonsensical. We need an organised institution to | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
deal with it. It has failed totally. In other areas like crime and so on | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
there is to some extent coordination. It is necessary. There | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
are rules coordinating the single market. There needs to be an EU wide | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
response to this. It is so obvious that is the answer and not an | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
anarchy with the UK saying we won't take any, Germany saying we will | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
taking loads. It is madness but we do have an institution capable of | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
quarter knitting it and that is better than not having one at all. | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
Of course, they should be in Europe wide solution and supposedly there | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
was one in September when the EU nations decided they would share out | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
and resettle some of the refugees and asylum seekers who have come. | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
But that is a failure. When Andrew 60,000 out of the 1 million -- | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
160,000 out of 1 million that came. If that keeps on going there won't | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
be a solution. There are continent wide solution is underway but they | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
are not being implemented. It was always we have ten days to state the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
euro and if it fails, Europe fails. In this case at least with the euro | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
graces needed to stop gap illusions as strong as the crisis. This they | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
can't afford to do. This is a human wave that'll possibly overwhelm the | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
continent. I'm surprised with this | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
exaggeration. Two CDE you will collapse simply because of these | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
foreign migration am I believe it is not right. The European Union is 500 | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
million citizens. How many migrants are coming now? It is only 1 | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
million. Do you think 1 million, and half of them will be deported. Do | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
you think 300,000 will create destruction of the European Union? | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
If that is the case... It is to union it is not European. It doesn't | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
deserve it. My second point is, we're looking at the effect of the | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
problem. We're not looking at real elements. It is Syria. The situation | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
in Syria. Why is it happening? Five years now. No political solution or | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
military solution. This is the problem. That is what the French | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
Prime Minister said. The route and the causes in studio, we need to | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
help Iraq, Turkey. But he got it wrong from the beginning. France got | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
it wrong. Britain got it wrong. When they encourage the destruction of | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
Syria, where they encouraged to militants to go to city and creating | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
the problems. We never had a long-term vision at all. They | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
pretend they know the Middle East, it is proved they know nothing of | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
the Middle East. Suddenly, they wake up and there is the Islamic State. | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
Suddenly, they wake up and they found those waves of immigrants | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
coming to Europe. This is the problems stop where are the think | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
tanks? Just in terms of the future of the European Union, there's this | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
help David Cameron and his negotiations in the sense he can | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
say, everybody is discontented here. The real problems we need to | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
re-energise and rethink. The other way of looking at it is many British | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
people will vote because of fear of immigration, in control immigration, | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
we're not control of our borders. But it may be it more than economic | :08:39. | :08:48. | |
leave. I completely agree with Steve on | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
this. A lot of British people will think we need more coordination, not | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
less. We don't want to be out of the union because the union is the only | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
solution even though it is not providing it at the moment. It is | :09:04. | :09:11. | |
strange to talk about Brexit when it is just a minor issue in the big | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
scheme of things. We are going to have a summit about Brexit people | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
say, we don't need a summit about Brexit, let's talk about it later. | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
Most about a minor point. If Britain were outside the EU, do you think | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
the French government would be, would have the same attitude towards | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
migrants who end up in Calais? No. Britain would actually lose a | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
loss because then Calais would become the problem, I think, of | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
Britain. I'm not sure if that is people would look at this and say we | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
need more Europe. Possibly, more coordination. Brits would look at | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
this and say the European project has been a failure and let's go back | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
to the first principles of being an economic union and a trading bloc | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
and that is what we signed up for and that is all we want. You hit the | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
danger in the UK in terms of this referendum. The arguments we are | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
making, when we say more coordination, let's be honest we are | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
saying individual country should give up more of their sovereignty in | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
this issue. They shouldn't be allowed to decide, it needs to be | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
coordinated on an EU wide basis. We can make that argument, it is a | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
powerful argument. Try making that in a referendum. Give up your power | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
to decide how many of these people we are willing to take. That is why | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
this referendum is dangerous even though we are right to put the | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
solution to this, it is to be caught donated. Let's look at the | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
Springbok, Turkey for example. You mention smugglers. Turkey was paid | :10:59. | :11:11. | |
$3 million to solve this problem. Turkey got a huge concession, | :11:12. | :11:39. | |
says Isis can be diminished through Facebook, | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
Or is she just part the digital delusion that tweets | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
You have written quite a lot impact on anything much | :11:48. | :11:57. | |
You have written quite a lot about the digital caliphate and how these | :11:58. | :11:57. | |
organisations communicate. think she has got a point to? | :11:58. | :12:08. | |
I think she does. Islamic State using Twitter, the Internet, | :12:09. | :12:08. | |
Facebook said the maximum. managed to gain a lot of success. | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
They can recruit people which is extremely important. They can | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
promote their vicious ideology all over the world. I believe, some bin | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
Ladin was unlucky because during his time he is an all man sitting in | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
front of a camera giving a ceremony for about an hour on a half to be | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
cut down to a few seconds by Al Jazeera or CNN. Suddenly, at a press | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
of a button be reached all the corners of the world. It is free of | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
charge. Now I believe, there is a huge campaign huge moves from the | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
intelligence services in order to deprive them of this gift, this | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
American gift. I noticed recently because I'm visiting this, their | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
presence on social media is cut short. It isn't as it used to be. | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
They used to have 100,000 tweets every day. | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
She was suggesting that we like some of the Islamic State stuff and swamp | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
them. There were 5 million tweets which said, bring back our goals, | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
and it didn't have any good on Booker Haran. Isn't it just the way | :13:34. | :13:42. | |
of these people who run these huge corporations of shoving the | :13:43. | :13:44. | |
responsibility on other people. It is their responsibility, isn't it? | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
Definitely. Facebook is a tool. But we have to look at other sites top | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
for example, when you have somebody like Donald Trump, Sarah Pailin, | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
when they are there dominating the scene and saying we have to ban | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Muslims from entering the United States is that this is the best | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
recruiting tool for the Islamic State. We have to watch our media. | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
We have to watch what we are saying, our ideology come our way of | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
thinking. It has to be a collective move, it isn't just the Facebook or | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
Twitter. We have to have a very wide range of tools in order to fight | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
them. I think the idea of like bombing Islamic State isn't going to | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
happen. That is ludicrous. There was this summit between silicon valley | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
and the American government to joke about was could be done. Using both | :14:45. | :14:57. | |
Western tools of the Internet, these are private companies. There should | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
be bans of government limitations on different interference and speech | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
but these are private companies which can take steps. It is helpful | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
but is now a pilot between them and the government as to what can be | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
done. Facebook has controls, for example, I'm trying to fly people | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
who might be suicidal. They can exercise other kinds of algorithms | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
to find Andrew Tye had propaganda things from Islamic State. | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
There is something that but not enough? Censorship... BBC don't | :15:33. | :15:47. | |
broadcast Isis Didio. -- videos. You have access to some of the top | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
people in Isis, they have revealed to the degree they use social media. | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
It is in some sort of primitive bunch of people. The response has to | :15:57. | :16:06. | |
be sophisticated. Liking on Facebook is not going to be enough or | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
sophisticated enough. More sophisticated than some of the | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
Western authorities. The response has to be sophisticated. Including, | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
frankly, I'd agree with you saying the government should make sure this | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
happens. It is also about hiring talent. IS relies on the talents of | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
IT talents of very young graduates from our best universities. That is | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
exactly what silicon valley is about. It is counterattacking. It is | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
counteracting not just recruiting but also radicalisation and speech. | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
It is battle of talents on something that is extremely sophisticated. You | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
are absolutely right. The head of IT Department on Isis, he was educated | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
in the West, in the United States was that he got his degrees from | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
acid she says. He was born in Paris. -- his degree from Massachusetts. He | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
managed to recruit a lot of his friends, those young vigorous | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
people, Muslim and non-Muslim, to work for his department. That is why | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
they are highly advanced. They have very sophisticated, they can outfox | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
a lot of intelligence services and Western governments because they are | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
fighting by their own tools, brains and experience. That is why they are | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
doing well according to their terms. The as Redding the propaganda full | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
directors, writers and producers stop | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
feel they have been overlooked at the Oscars. | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
we have had this before. Women too. They have a point. I was looking at | :18:03. | :18:16. | |
the archives 20 years ago and there was the same protest against the | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
Oscars and the fact most of the nominees were white. There were | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
protests outside some of the television studios broadcasting the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Oscars. When you look at the Strait of acting nominees there is no way | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
you concede that isn't a problem in terms of the diversity but we're | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
back to something structural. You look at the Academy make-up itself a | :18:38. | :18:46. | |
stop there was a study where the Academy itself is 94% white. It is | :18:47. | :18:59. | |
70s sent percent male stop dead is going to be some changes where they | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
will try to double the number of women, ethnic minorities. They are | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
starting from a low bar. 7% of women directors in Hollywood. But is that | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
a huge number. You have seen this from the inside because you work for | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
the Cannes film Festival. How do you see this problem and how it affects | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
those who take the decisions, who they get to vote on? | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
I agree with what Henry just said. But from within the industry. You | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
watch the films to pre-select them for the festival. As a viewer you | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
don't care about the colour of the skin or the religion or even the | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
gender. You are judging the work, you are judging performances. I'm | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
more interested in the voice, in a new voice, an independent voice | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
which is important in cinema. My duties to the work, it isn't too | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
caught this idea. At the end of the day I wish my pre-selection and in | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
the end the selection in Cannes deflected gender, parity. And also | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
nationalities from all around the world. When people... I get a fellow | :20:25. | :20:33. | |
journalists asking me every year, as a woman you should favour films by | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
women. No, I favour what I consider are the best films. It is true that | :20:43. | :20:51. | |
it is an important to point the finger but in the end we don't need | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
quotas will stop nobody is advocating quotas. Some do. These | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
awards should be given out on merit. It is easy to elect a black man | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
president of the US than to have a black man head of the studio in | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
Hollywood. You look at the movies that have been made but plenty of | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
movies have not been made which would have had a more diverse story, | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
women's story. It would make it more appealing. The independent | :21:27. | :21:44. | |
production that ... If you look at a film like Creed, the director is | :21:45. | :21:55. | |
white. The main actor is black. A white man was nominated for the | :21:56. | :22:05. | |
award on the back of it. Once I was selected to be a judge for a | :22:06. | :22:16. | |
television Academy, I was surprised. I was one of a few people out of 200 | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
who was non-white. This is the problem. We saw Charlotte Rampling | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
saying that is racism against white people. There is no single person on | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
the Academy board who is back. Cannes film Festival, we see Middle | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
Eastern films can African films, Asian films, represented there. | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
Actors, directors are presented. When it comes to the Oscars it is a | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
different story. There is an admission that there is something | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
wrong. They want to double that. Why now? Why didn't it take place along | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
time ago? I toke to the director of Selma, and | :23:03. | :23:17. | |
I asked how many African American women directors are there? He said, | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
we can do lens, we can sit around one table. There is no black person | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
burning the television studios in Hollywood. To be crudely tokenistic | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
in this area would be absurd. My trendy friends don't look at a bunch | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
of firms to go to and say we can't go to that, it isn't directed by a | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
woman. It would be absurd now given the structure. We can't carve out | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
ways of nominating people just on that basis. You have to sort out the | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
structural problems. When you chose the best films you can't do it any | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
other way. I don't know if they are the best films but you would have | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
seen them. Some of them are pretty good. Do you | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
take the point that we don't know Whitfield 's are not being made and | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
we can't know that. Of course. In a few weeks' time I | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
will see a lot of British films, and are very few by female directors. | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
Perhaps they are not arrogant enough to think their film deserves to be | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
selected. There is something cultural. Hollywood is important but | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
it is only a tiny fraction of world cinema. I suspect Bollywood, there | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
aren't many women Bollywood directors. | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
That's it for Dateline London for this week. | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
You can comment on the programme on Twitter and like us | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
A fine day for most of the UK this Saturday. The weather much calmer | :25:07. | :25:46. | |
than it is on the other side of the United States. The US being hit by a | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
powerful snowstorm, picking up moisture from the Gulf of Mexico and | :25:52. | :25:54. |