05/03/2016 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

In this week's programme: is it the end of compassion

Plus, the continuing scandal of child abuse

My guests today are: Jeffrey Kofman who is a north American journalist

and broadcaster Nesrine Malik who is a Sudanese writer

Maria Margaronis of The Nation, and Catherine Pepinster

Far more migrants, some say 30 times more,

have tried to enter Europe in the first two months of this year

Greece, which has plenty of other problems, is under

There have been disturbances in Greece and from Macedonia

to Calais plus border tightening from the Balkans to Austria,

And are we also witnessing the end of any idea of a Europe

You would weep looking at the scenes at the Macedonian border. Kuwait and

you do, but let's start with language. You say migrants, these

people by any definition are refugees. Later percent of the

people who have commented Greece this year are from Syria, Iraq and

Afghanistan. More than 50% of those are women and children, they are not

coming to Europe to quote, take our jobs. And he thinks that are on

offer, the things being discussed by the EU are completely inadequate. We

have had an offer of 66,000 pledged places for refugees and migrants,

refugees from Greece and Italy, 660 have been placed so far. Greece has

been building the so-called hotspot or reception centres but they are

not going to be enough whatever happens because people will keep

coming. Greece has responded I think remarkably well given what else is

going on, able have been helping, have been bringing water, volunteers

in particular, but that is not going to last indefinitely if so many

thousands of people are trapped in the country. We were told that this

would be the quiet period because it is winter and it was very dangerous.

We were, so what will happen, May and June when more people are coming

across? Why is it that the European Union has so significantly failed to

show the quote solidarity "That is supposed to be at the heart and soul

of it? Badly it is politics, people talk about saving Schengen, but we

risk losing something more important, even values that the

European Union was supposed to be built on in the first place. What we

are seeing is if a country like Greece goes into debt, immediately

the whips and handcuffs are put out and fierce measures are imposed but

if a country like Hungary or Poland reeks of the EU was and build border

fences and cut back on press freedom and so on, nothing happens. We have

an overview of the rise of the right, in an effort to contain that

rise, more mainstream politicians are taking more and more hard line

on refugees, and it is catastrophic. Where do you see this going,

Geoffrey? There is no to this. There are two currents in conflict, one is

compassion and we all feel enormous compassion for the images but the

other is you have this endless tide of refugees, there are 4 million

Syrian refugees, mostly in Lebanon and Jordan, and now displaced home

was looking for a life, not just a better life but a life. So the

challenge now is there is a perception in Europe that come to

Europe you will get a better life and you are starting to see other

people from North Africa, Pakistan, coming aboard this circle, this

tight, and so there is a perception here in Europe that if we continue

to welcome that we will encourage more and that is where the conflict

comes. On one hand, compassion, on the other hand, the whole world will

come. How do you reconcile those two? Clearly what you don't want to

do is leave those women and children on the borders of Macedonia,

freezing in the cold in this time of year. The problem is now that Angela

Merkel, who allowed 1 million refugees into Germany, her

popularity has plummeted, the politicians see that at the say

there is just block size to me being compassionate. We are playing a game

of pass the refugee, almost. Absolutely and it is quite worrying

to hear people say, there is a cool effect because this is bringing in

migrants from Pakistan and areas of the world weather is a problem,

there is to arguments that are now out there, that these refugees are

middle-class and they have mobile phones and they are not in that much

trouble. If you are risking your life to get to Europe from Syria or

Iraq, this does not matter whether you have a mobile phone or not, you

have a rough life in to get away. The second thing is that mixed in

with these refugees are people from Afghanistan and Eritrea, they are

not from Islamabad and the diplomatic waters of capital, they

are from the water and ravaged areas. And so just because there is

no live flash point war in these areas does not mean that these are

not legitimate refugees suffering from their own little atomised

conflict themselves. Norwalk which the West has invested interest in.

Or that the media has paid any attention to. Where do you see this

going? This plays into the EU referendum partly because of the

migrant issue but also because we have heard French rumblings this

week when the British Prime Minister was there, if you get out of the EU

what will we do at Cali? We will just open the gates. I am not sure

how that works when you have a 27 mile barrier of water. They give the

impression that they will just two people onto the Eurostar and sent

them off. What is happening as everyone is making use for the

purposes of this crisis, I was very intrigued to see that even the Natal

commander-in-chief has decided that this is something that is happening,

when Putin is tied to bring up the EU by enabling Syria to have this

crisis, this will make you and stable. I fear that by the Putin

does not need to do that, it feels to me like the EU is picking up

already, because as you have been saying, the values that underpin it,

solidarity and brotherhood, are being cast aside often by

politicians who often understandably have started to focus on their own

domestic situations for them personally. I think we are very soon

great to see a push to rewrite the 1951 refugee Convention, this

discussion has been going on at least since 2003, when a player said

it was no longer fit for purpose, and I think these are subtle changes

of light which we are seeing are part of that. They are not refugees,

the migrants. Greece is on the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe. What

defines a Germanic telling catastrophe? When you have 10,000

people camping in the mud is that not already a humanitarian

catastrophe? Greece is pivotal year for very simple reasons of

geography, but we have had with the economic crisis, we have had no

lasting solution. The horrible metaphor of the cat being kicked

down the road. This is another one being kicks down the road but by the

people. This is not new for Greece, the rest of Europe has finally

noticed but Greece has had a refugee crisis for at least ten years. We

are all brilliant geniuses at analysing the problem... You like

what to be do next? Exactly. There needs to be safe routes for people

to come to Europe from war-torn areas. The so-called relocation

scheme is to be made to work. There has to be some kind of stick applied

as well as a carrot. You cannot have Hungary, which pledged to take 1200

people, now saying they will have a referendum on whether Hungary should

do that. If you're in the EU and you take your money there are also some

obligations. Anyone have any better ideas? Mr Trump would build the

wall. What needs to happen is we need to look for solutions where the

problems are coming from and I think stabilising Libya is critical

because Libya is also a transit point for so many refugees. And

ultimately, that is the only long-term solution. May I add, there

has been a disconnect between the political classes in everyday

citizens, European citizens on how to approach the problem. There have

been lots of volunteers, journalists, entertainers, there is

a real chasm between the political message of what normal people would

like to do. There are many people who demonstrate and like far right

parties who want to do the opposite. If you can channel the willingness

of normal people to volunteer and finance refugees, location and

domestic facilitation, that is something that could be helpful.

Anything else? We are talking about two different things, the short-term

crisis of those people who are suffering in the camps but as you

said, we also need political solutions to what is happening in

these countries. But I fear that if you have to talk to people in

compassionate terms then we are going to need another photo of a

little boy on the beach to get through to people.

Hillary Clinton now looks very likely to be the nominee

of the Democratic party in November's presidential election.

Donald Trump is way ahead for the Republicans,

and the Stop Trump panic within the Republican leadership

is looking for someone, anyone, to derail the Donald.

What do we make of the choices of the American people?

What we are seeing is a civil war in America, the Republican party is at

war with itself, it is nothing less than that. This is a war of survival

for the Republican party as we have known it at the establishment has

known it. And the outcome, Donald Trump has managed to orchestrate the

ultimate reality show, it is called the future, and this is really,

really caring the party apart. Where it will go, Trump, right now, is

destined to win, whether he can get enough votes to lead to Cleveland to

get a majority is not clear but that is in July, still months away. There

is a possibility presumably of a brokered convention, without going

into the details, because it is I want dull,... Actually it is really

interesting! Tell us what could happen. Traditionally in American

politics there is a very complex series of primary is, it liked

enough delegates so that somebody has 1237 votes for the Republican

party and it is really a coronation, that is what these conventions have

been since 1952, it wait for the party to come behind the candidate

and vice president candidate and say, onto November and the election.

In 1948 it was the Republicans, in 52 it was the Democrats, it was the

last time we had brokered conventions which means that nobody

had a majority, 50% plus one. You do not want that because it is

disunity, it is great for the media but not good for the party, and

since television arrived there has been a real push not to have these

public displays, these four fights. That is what we might face. If

Donald Trump does not have the 37 or something close to it, we will then

see a vote in Cleveland in July and in the first round, if he does not

win, then the delegates start to get released and then it is anybody's

game and the problem is, if Trump loses that it is going to be seen

that, if Ruby or cruise triumph, on the second or third ballot, it will

be seen that one had the candidacy stolen from him and saw the division

gets worse. It is worth pointing out that in 48 and 52 the brokered

convention of Victor lost. Since Mitt Romney came out and denounced

Trump yesterday, the AM radio stations have been buzzing with

angry grassroots Republicans seeing how dare they tell me how to vote, I

am for the Donald still the end. As a spectator, you are just back from

New York, as a spectator it is extraordinary. Is but it is easy for

us in Europe to look at those ludicrous Americans and laughed but

if you look at what is going on around Europe, Donald Trump is not

that isolated a phenomenon on. We have plenty of right-wing xenophobic

populist demagogue leaders in Europe, too. Donald Trump I would

suggest is going to shift, as candidates have in the past, when

they think they will become the nominee, and will change his tune

and he will do it with aplomb. I am not sure. I think that Trump's

strength is in the fact that the is, bullets not only bounce off him but

they make him stronger. His strength is the fact that he can see the

unsayable and I think if he starts apologising and moderating that he

will lose his superpower. I am not sure about apologising. If he begins

to moderate and download his style, I think it might dent his

credibility. It is one of the other. Donald Trump can only exist in one

guise, and otherwise he does not exist, if you see what I need. Eagle

B C Clinton. It is going to be mud wrestling. As strong as she is, she

is going to face a very personal and vicious assault about her husband's

sexual past, about her own uncertain details in certain things, the

mysteries of her own past escapades, it is going to get so ugly. Going to

get so ugly, with her, but it is surprising to see the world's most

powerful democracy, one of the great parties in the world was powerful

democracy, the party of Abraham Lincoln, reduced to grown men making

jokes that frankly teenage boys don't really do any more. It is

depressing and makes you wonder why it is they can produce candidates of

greater calibre. What I am furious about is if Trump does not get the

nomination, could he stand as an independent? He could. Plenty of

money. Has the money. That would make the fight even more

interesting. What's the Republican establishment fears is that Trump is

so unelectable that the Nolan -- not only could lose the presidency but

the Senate and potentially Congress and ultimately Hillary Clinton and

her liberal agenda would be open, the Supreme Court vacancy left by

the death of Scalia could be filled with even more liberal judge and

they are doomed. They are reaping what they have soared, the Madrid

this monster profited from the rise of the tea party. This is what they

have made. The interesting thing about this particular election is it

shows you an Hillary Clinton's side and Trump's site is the problem with

American politics is the accrual of privilege that boys people approach

rather than policies and ideologies. You have Hillary Clinton as the

Democratic party apparatchik has the entire machine behind her, and

Donald Trump is completely vacuous but has the heft of money and

capital is behind him, that is the interesting thing. I think one of

the reasons why I think you can change is made on things and nobody

cares if he can see I have a businessman and I make business

deals, if it is not working out to something else. Too many people that

there is an attractive quality. Earlier had a point that is

important to acknowledge, that as much as we might think Trump is the

wrong man to lead the world's last-minute superpower, he does

reflect as Maria said this notion that a large part of the economies

of Europe and North America feel disenfranchised by the gains of the

last 20 years and I think Jeremy Corbyn fit into that as much as

Donald Trump. Let's move on. The Oscars were clear: this year's

best picture is Spotlight, a forensic examination of not just

sexual abuse within the Catholic church but also of high level

attempts to cover it up. Now Cardinal Pell, Australia's most

senior Catholic and the man trusted by the Pope to clean

up Vatican finances, has become embroiled in questions

about his handling of matters Has the Vatican, as a United Nations

report alleged, been more interested in protecting priests

than in protecting children? This does not go away and spotlight

has made us think about it again. It does not go away, though there have

been some attempts to do something about it, such as Paul Francis has

set up a commission to look at the protection of minors, which leads in

Rome regularly. There is a difference between what spotlight

covered and what is happening with Cardinal Pell, because with

spotlight, you have the revelations that were deeply unsavoury, about a

Cardinal who was proven to have covered up what was going on in the

Boston diocese. Cardinal Pell is now a Cardinal but he was not when what

he is being questioned about happened. He was not in that

position of authority so it is not spotlight writ large, but what it

does remind people is that the Catholic Church has been too fond of

trying to keep scandal hidden away. Unfortunately if you do that,

scandal comes up to bite you later on. That is what has happened over

and over again. For people not familiar with Cardinal Pell, he is

the really important figure now. He is certainly very important, he was

a very well-known man before Francis became Pope, because he is the kind

of guy, he is a real bruiser. He was the Archbishop of Sydney. When Pope

Francis wanted to reform the Vatican he brought various people in to help

them, and the tools Cardinal Pell to come from Australia to Rome to sort

out the Vatican's finances. That is not an easy thing to do, as anyone

who has read the books of revelations will know. He has

enemies in Rome over that. And now we have this embarrassing situation

of him being questioned about what happened in Australia with abusive

priests and whether he knew about them. Although he was not in a

position of authority himself, he did advise the bishop at the time. I

do not know what the rest of you think about spotlight itself, which

is a great movie, but it is a kind of journalism which looks very

old-fashioned in the modern world in a peculiar way because it is very

expensive to do the kind of investigation that the Boston Globe

did. Unfortunately, but we must strive distinction between the time

with the Boston Globe investigation happened, when you have less free

flow of information and you did not have the Internet that you did not

have the ability to have a live transmission of the Cardinal's

testimony, so I think even though we as journalists might look at this

sentimentally and think, you know, this is unfortunate, we cannot have

these kinds of investigations, we do have more resources that mean that

when these kind of things do happen, they are not completely opaque until

some 15 man team goes in and comes out with the information. That is

what I think about the sort of slightly misty eyed view of

spotlight. We are not in as bad shape as we think we are. The second

thing is, it is so fascinated with the Catholic Church, how the power

of the establishment completely always comes back and flattens

everything else. It is the ultimate oligarchy, and over the years, so

many allegations in the most heart-rending stories over

generations, the average year, the average number of years that

children were abused was three years, this happens all the time and

even though people try and engage with it and they set up commissions

etc, the establishment still comes together and makes sure that as the

Cardinal himself said, we cared more about protecting the church that

protecting the children. The last thing I would say is it is also

interesting that as this Cardinal is going to start investigating and

cleaning up the finances of the Vatican, suddenly the people that he

is trying to sort out and resolve the financial situation of our very

interested in how he covered up these things and very interested in

how to investigate the child sex abuse allegations so they're all

these machinations. He has only himself to blame, his comments this

week are indefensible, that he was not much interested learning about

this. But revealing. But the wilful indifference he displayed this week

to the Israeli commission is absolutely appalling.

But the Catholic Church is not the only place where there has been

wilful indifference to child abuse by powerful men, obviously it is a

huge institution with supposedly moral force and it is particularly

important... The BBC have the problem as we well know. Spotlight

is a wonderful hero journalist saving the world, which is all our

fantasy, but what is behind this? Why did this happen? What is the

culture of shame, of power, of suppressed sexuality, of all of

those things that makes this possible? But as additional culture,

and your point is a situation is very often exist supposedly publicly

to do certain things but very often get defensive and actually exist in

order to protect themselves. And that is almost eight hundred

business school case study about human behaviour that needs to be

done, about the way the establishment comes together, the

way management... It is about how human beings manager suggestions to

promote a certain message, whether it is media religion or sport, it is

always about... The cover-up. We have the end there. The Pope has

placed a lot of faith in him to clean up things, will he continue to

support him? I think they might have a get out clause which is that

Cardinal Pell is 75, he himself said he had ill health, that is why he

did not go to Australia. I wonder if his time is limited now in what he's

going to do for Pope Francis, but what I find interesting is that the

said he could not go to Australia to participate in these hearings and we

said we will come to you, but in doing that what the dead was the

brought this crisis right into the heart of Rome. And they raise the

victims... And the victims were crowd flooded to come and sit and

listen to these hearings, so it is inescapable that they have got to

deal with this. That is from us for this week, you can comment on the

programme on Twitter. We're back next. Thank you. -- we are back next

week. Thank you. Certainly with regards to the

cabbages,